Money, Money, Money, Money
by Heather Koerner on 10/23/2008 at 10:31 AM
Lately, my hubbie and I have started quoting a certain verse to each other: Proverbs 23:5.
It usually goes something like this.
Hubbie: Did you see the Dow today?
Me: Yep. Nice. Ah, cast but a glance at riches...
Hubbie: ... for they sprout stupid wings and fly away.
Well, we paraphrase. But we do smile. And for a saver like me, it's nice to smile as you see your nest egg starting to scramble. These days, I seem to cycle from shock to frustration to composed calm and then back through again.
I'm finding, though, that the calm sections are starting to last longer and longer -- mainly because of a big lesson the Lord has been teaching me. That lesson? The difference between saving and hoarding, and what my attitude needs to be towards each.
I wrote about that Friday on Boundless in an article titled "Maggots in the Manna."
"So, which is it? Does my saving make me the wise ant of Proverbs — storing up my provisions in the summer? Or am I the Rich Fool — making plans to store my excess so I'll have "good things laid up for many years" only to find that I'm a fool in God's eyes?
How do I balance these Scriptures, without ignoring either?"
After talking about the biblical differences between the saving and hoarding, I came to realize that my tendency to save can be just as destructive to my walk with Christ as someone who overspends:
"I'm becoming more and more convinced that Satan will gladly encourage spenders to devour and he'll gladly encourage savers like me to hoard. As long as, either way, we're not giving."
Give it a read and see what you think. And, if you haven't noticed, Ted has been posting some good money articles lately. There are four besides "Maggots" in the last two weeks. Take a look -- it'll be more fun than watching the Dow.
1. Matthew said the following at 11:40 AM on Oct 23:
I really appreciated this article because many times, the advice to Christians can mirror the legalist, self-righteous advice that the "responsible" world preaches: hoard it all for yourself and your family after you tithe, and don't stoop to share it with anyone who might be "irresponsible" or "undeserving." I feel like conservative Christians who really are responsible with their money are particularly prone to fall prey to this overemphasis (see Thabiti Anyabwile's latest post for more on this.) I was glad to see a balanced, nuanced perspective from the Bible on the subject and an encouragement to be generous even in hard times.
Tim Keller likes to say how, in all of his years of pastoral counseling, no one has ever come to him complaining that they struggle with greed. He surmises that this is because greed is the sin that creeps up on everyone, oftentimes when we think that other people are greedy. Other sins, like adultery, are obvious-- no one ever says, "Hey, wait a minute! You're not my wife!" But greed is pernicious and stealthy, and it can infect "prudent" advice just as easily as irresponsibility. We usually fall prey to it without realizing we're greedy. This is why Jesus warns us to be watching out for it so diligently so often.
2. obewan said the following at 12:33 PM on Oct 23:
I don't think hoarding is much of a problem for the average person. I say this because the futures numbers are quite frightening. To have a retirement income of $50K in 20 or 30 years means a person needs to save at least $1million in an IRA or 401K. If there were a market crash, even more would be required. There have been 2 market crashes in the last 10 years, which have taken about 50% of my retirement savings.
I know one man in the singles group who was set to have a $1 million retirement savings and he lost 50% in a crash and had to live on $25k per year.
Then too, there is the possibility of illness. I lost my job and medical insurance, and then got sick and did not work for a few years. I lost over $200K, and if I did not have money saved, would have been in the homeless shelter. Now with 3 big losses, I need to save 50% of my income AND earn 6-8% in the market in order to retire on time. If there is another market crash, I won't be able to retire.
Oh, and let’s not forget about nursing home care. In 20-30 years, it is expected to cost $500K per year, and the current average stay is 3 years. Medicare only covers a few months at present I think. I don’t know the stats for how many people actually end up in the nursing home though.
I suppose I need to think about all those poor people in 3rd world countries who work until they die though.
I don't see "hording" as a problem unless people give up their charitable and church giving. If people are giving, there is nothing wrong with saving. The majority of Americans have not saved any where near enough money to be on track for retirement.
As for Biblical guidance, I like the story about saving during 7 years of abundance so as to eat during 7 years of famine.
3. Marc said the following at 9:38 PM on Oct 23:
Heather:
You always write good blogs for Boundless, but this, by far, is one of the best. This is oh-so-applicable to my life... Oh-so-applicable.
4. Texas Craig said the following at 5:21 AM on Oct 24:
As much as I always enjoy obewan's posts (and I mean that!), I must disagree on this one (at least in part). I agree that hoarding is probably not so much of a problem here in the US, but its probably because most Americans (and Christians) are busy spending beyond their means. Moreover, given the numbers that tend to show that very few Christians give away even 10% of their income, I would say that many should err on the side of giving more before saving.
Don't get me wrong, I am all about wise stewardship. But, I think it should start first with recognizing that we really do not need a whole lot to live on. Then, as we reign in our spending, we will see that we don't need to save as much to cover our living expenses (because now they are not as high), and that we can be more generous with giving to others throughout the world who have legitimate needs or to seeing the gospel spread.
I personally feel like greed and sexual immorality are the two most destructive sins in the church today. The church is pretty good at challenging one of those, but pretty poor at challenging the other.
5. obewan said the following at 9:16 AM on Oct 24:
">>I agree that hoarding is probably not so much of a problem here in the US, but its probably because most Americans (and Christians) are busy spending beyond their means.<<"
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Amen to that! The best example is the current sub-prime crisis. When I bought my condo, they tried to give me a mortgage for 3 times the amount to buy a large 3000 sq ft suburb home. I did not listen, so my mortage is 1/3 what it could be. That is how I am able to save so much for retirement. I live well within my means. If I had kids to put through college, it might be a different story too. I have also recently increased my giving since my church is not meeting budget.
6. New Yorker said the following at 9:25 AM on Oct 24:
This post was definitely a wake-up call for me. I pride myself for being able to frugally live in Manhattan as a recent college graduate working at a non-profit, while still faithfully tithing (at Tim Keller's church, as a side note to Matthew's comment) and saving 10% for retirement.
But I am definitely guilty of hoarding. For example, when I plan on walking into museums with "suggested admissions" and give only a penny when I don't even count change that is typically returned to me at the deli. So now I've been giving a dollar, but if I'm honest with myself, it's mostly because of the dirty looks that the cashiers give me when I pull out a coin instead of a bill.
So I have to ask myself: should i go beyond tithing? When millions in the city are hungry? http://www.foodbanknyc.org/go/food-poverty-in-nyc
It's a tough balance. On one hand, obewan's post leads me to feel that I should continue to be frugal...I know that God is calling me to serve in New York, a place that needs Christian witness, and it might take decades before I feel comfortable buying an apartment that I can afford. On the other hand...should I "hoard" for my future needs when there are millions around me with much more immediate needs (i.e. food)?
7. NAB said the following at 9:52 AM on Oct 24:
Save now or be a burden later.
8. Renee said the following at 5:24 PM on Oct 24:
It can definitely be hard to determine the fine line between being a saver and a hoarder. I think it is a matter of the heart. Does my mood go up and down when my savings account goes up and down?
It also makes me think about the difference between being frugal and being stingy. Frugal is at the expense of yourself and stingy is at the expense of someone else. There are times when I am being stingy and I mistake it for being frugal. I get way too excited when I see my savings accounts growing and I start to imagine what I am going to buy myself in the future (ie new car, bigger house). I don't see it as increased opportunity to give. The more I watch my savings increase the harder it is to imagine it decreasing, and that will hinder my giving when someone is in need.
My Bible study group has been studying Luke 6. In that chapter Jesus says "Blessed are the poor... Woe to you who are rich". Is "poor" and "rich" based on income? We concluded it is based on those who hoard and those who give. If you are poor because you are a cheerful giver than you are blessed. If you are rich because you are a hoarder then woe to you. Again it is a matter of the heart and how much you save vs give is between you and God.
9. farmer Tom said the following at 7:35 PM on Oct 24:
Heather, I would like to comment on your article about driving old cars.
Far to many people do not know how to properly buy a car. If you simply go to a dealer, look at what is on the lot, then make your choice, you are a fool.
There are numerous services which enable you to determine the actual value of any particular vehicle. You should decide what car will meet your needs and desires. If you prefer two doors to four, four wheel drive etc. Then after you have established the value of the vehicle you search sites like Auto Trader or Cars.com locating all of the exact cars you are looking for.
An example, you are looking for a 2005 Toyota Corolla. Find the value, then search all dealers that list that particular car. Go to all the dealers. Tell them, "I have this list of 10 cars at all of these different dealers, give me your best price. You have one chance to sell me this car. If your price does not fall within the price range I have established in doing my research, I will go down the street to your competition."
Then be prepared to walk away. Never, never decide that you must have that particular car. A car is not a house, it is not a girlfriend, it is not a life long purchase. If you do not get the first, second or third one you look at, you will find a car you can enjoy and afford if you control your impulse to buy "that special one" that you fell in love with.
Personally, I have a friend who has an auto dealers license. I am currently looking for a pick-up truck. I have certain things that are requirements, Dodge diesel 4x4 and a exact price range etc . We have been looking for several months. But, by buying wholesale through the dealer, I will pay him a flat fee for finding and purchasing the particular vehicle I want. I will save somewhere between 2000 and 4000 dollars by purchasing a vehicle in this manner.
Years ago, I looked at a pickup I wanted, I walked away 4 times. The last time I made him an offer, after having established value, I told him, I know this vehicle is worth x, I will give you $500 dollars more than x. You make a profit, and I get a good deal." He sold it to me.
The very same day, my best friend bought a car on his first trip to a dealer. He did no research, he had no idea the actual value of the car. He allowed the dealer to finance it, setting up payments that he could afford.
Two years later, my truck was paid for, my friend was still upside down on his payment schedule. He had paid over market price, made very small payments and then had two more kids. They would not all fit in the car, and he owed more than it was worth.
Heather, even if, because of your accident and a settlement with an insurance company, you have cash to spend, do not allow yourself to be convinced to buy at dealer price. Find someone who can help you buy at wholesale price, pay them a finder's fee, and you may be able to buy a very nice car with no more money than you received in the insurance settlement.
10. DannieA said the following at 10:39 PM on Oct 24:
Thank goodness my dad sells used cars...even though my last car purchase (which was my first lol) was a new vehicle,(given my situation, longer commute, and hefty downpayment on my VW rabbit) I have bought a good car that lasted me for a while from him.
FYI, not all used car salesmen are crooks or evil (my dad is the best!) so find a good one.
I bought my new car 2 years ago and don't owe anything on it now due to a hefty downpayment. While most of the time buying new isn't the best...it may also depend on a person's situation and if they can pay it all cash or pay it off quickly after a good downpayment.
My family usually buys used and drive the cars into the ground, so I expect my VW will be with me for a while...I love my car...but in 2 years i'm a little over 50,000 miles...so I think I better stick with vehicles that last long.
As Larry Burkett used to say when he was alive in his money management show on the christian radio I grew up with, a mortgage and car payment should be your only debt. This leaves ample room for serving and giving freely.
11. DannieA said the following at 8:57 AM on Oct 25:
wow semantic error in my post. My last purchase was NOT my first purchase....it was my first purchase of a NEW vehicle.
12. hxcjf said the following at 9:17 AM on Oct 25:
Thursday night the foreign exchange market was the most volatile it has been since the eighties. It is very important to understand that the world is changing, and the world is undergoing a global investment shift that will leave the US in the dust unless it radically changes its tax and regulation policies. You no longer have the choice to be a passive investor and give your money to someone else to manage while you pray to the stock market god and hope it works out. You have to learn to trade it yourself and keep it moving in the global markets or you will lose it. Besides the free resources on my website, some great books to read are The Case Against the Fed by Murray Rothbard, and What Has the Government Done to Our Money? Both can be found on LewRockwell.com.
13. Charles H. said the following at 1:51 PM on Oct 25:
Farmer Tom, good advice.
Even if your level of familiarity with cars is no greater than that of one friend who drove around for 7 months on expired inspection stickers ("You have to get it done again every year?!") you can save quite a bit on cars.
Talk to your car-savvy friends. There are a few models out there that have exemplary records. Buying an example that's one or two years old can save you serious cash, and you get a car that's still under the factory warranty. Get a good mechanic to look at it first, and use whatever negatives he finds to bargain the price down.
If you do buy new, get the Consumer Reports price sheets (no affiliation, and in any event it's a non-profit) - then go to multiple dealers until one accepts your offer. Right now they're all hungry.
14. Matthew said the following at 8:12 AM on Oct 26:
Charles Spurgeon chimes in with his thoughts on the matter of giving and saving.
15. Laura said the following at 2:55 PM on Oct 26:
Can anyone recommend a good credit counseling company. We need to consolidate our credit cards and get on track to pay them off. But there are sooo many companies out there. I don't know who to trust. Thanks for any feedback
16. Alice said the following at 7:55 AM on Oct 27:
I'm a 33-year-old female with just $3,000 in my 401(k), $2,100 in a basic savings account, and about $700 in my checking account, but I would consider myself a hoarder. I believe it's much more a condition of the heart than it is a condition of your financial state. And it's a condition in which I need much grace.
17. Renee said the following at 12:17 PM on Oct 27:
Thanks for the link to the article by Charles Spurgeon.
Part of it reads "Selfishness looks first at home, but godliness seeks first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, yet in the long run selfishness is loss, and godliness is great gain. It needs faith to act towards our God with an open hand, but surely he deserves it of us; and all that we can do is a very poor acknowledgment of our amazing indebtedness to his goodness."
18. Texas Craig said the following at 1:29 PM on Oct 27:
Matthew:
Thanks for posting the link to Spurgeon's commentary. Those were good words to hear!
Peace and grace.
TC
19. Rachel S. said the following at 9:13 PM on Oct 27:
To add to what Charles H. (13) said: Consumer Reports also has similar resources for used cars. That's how my parents and I bought my new (used) car. Still under factory warranty!