Buddies After a Break-Up
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 10/02/2008 at 1:07 PM
Following the re-publishing of my article "Not Your Buddy," one reader asked me to address the topic of buddies after a break-up. She writes:
The guy wants to continue having the benefits of the familiarity and the encouragement and cheerleading that the girl provided him with during the relationship, but also wants to "be free" and "move on." Is he crazy?
When you have been in love with someone, I find it EXTREMELY hard to be "friends," even being cordial is hard at times. Especially when this guy has told you that you are the one and then flips it.
I don't believe it's appropriate for men and women to be buddies after breaking up. I have remained friends with men I've had relationships with, but the familiarity had to end.
This quote from J.R.R. Tolkien (provided by another Boundless reader) emphasizes the reason the broken up cannot be buddies:
How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point — and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him. But this is their natural avenue to love. Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the young man, when he exists, is still sighing) she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. And then things are going to happen: and they may be very painful and harmful, if things go wrong. Particularly if the young man only wanted a temporary guiding star and divinity (until he hitches his wagon to a brighter one), and was merely enjoying the flattery of sympathy nicely seasoned with the titillation of sex — all quite innocent, of course, and worlds away from 'seduction'.
....Don't be misled by the fact [women] are more 'sentimental' in words — freer with 'darling', and all that. They don't want a guiding star. They may idealize a plain young man into a hero; but they don't really need any such glamour either to fall in love or to remain in it.
—From a letter to his son, Michael Tolkien 6-8 March 1941, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Clearly men and women view close companionship differently. In my experience, if — after a man has told me that he is not interested in pursuing me — he continues to seek out personal time with me, I assign his actions more weight than his words. This is the danger of remaining buddies with someone after an explicit verbal severing of the romantic relationship has taken place.
Speaking in the terms of Tolkien's quote, I believe it is best for the woman to remove herself from the position of "guiding star" unless, or until, the man is prepared to make her the star in his life. Likewise, the man should resist the temptation to make a woman his "divinity" unless he's prepared to pursue her with integrity.
This approach may seem foreign in a culture that uses "let's stay friends," as a salve for the pain of breaking up. Sometimes the friendship shouldn't be salvaged. Sometimes a woman must say, "I'm worthy of being someone's bright star," and a man must say, "I'm going to resist the urge to hitch myself to a star that is not mine."
Cordiality after a break-up is one thing; continued intimacy is another. The latter should not exist.
1. composer girl said the following at 2:23 PM on Oct 2:
This issue has always confused me. Perhaps there could be an article on Boundless explaining "proper" friendships between men and women? Because according to guidelines outlined in your articles, I probably have several "improper" relationships with guys, but I've never felt convicted that they were wrong or harmful.
I just think it would be helpful for me, and possibly for other readers, now that we've heard your opinion about what is not right (buddies), to hear your opinion about what are qualities of good non-romantic relationships between brothers and sisters in Christ. I personally don't believe that we should completely estrange ourselves from social contact with the opposite sex, so what would be your view on what would be appropriate? (There's no guarantee that I will agree completely, but I'm interested in your thoughts.)
2. Will Kearney said the following at 2:30 PM on Oct 2:
Men and women probably shouldn't be close personal friends anyway. You can only "hang out" so much before something more starts to develop.
3. suzanne said the following at 3:13 PM on Oct 2:
Composer girl,
Thanks for the questions. Let me clarify. I do have quality friendships with members of the opposite sex. But I know when my feelings are straying into the "more than friends" zone with one young man in particular. "Not Your Buddy" is not referring to male friends in general; it's talking about intimate one-on-one friendships in which romantic expectations are being built by either one party or the other.
I absolutely know when I'm starting to entertain romantic expectations. You may have noticed the article gave an arbitrary amount of time—more than two hours of one-on-one time may signal more than friendship. While it's not necessarily veering from friendship if you spend, say, three hours of personal time one week, I think this is a pretty good rule of thumb. I have some great guy friends, but I generally don't feel a need to spend more than two hours of personal time per week with any one of them.
I'll give you that the situation varies from person to person, and the Holy Spirit's conviction in individual lives, but what I wrote about was something I've observed among dozens of male/female relationships.
4. Lauren said the following at 3:25 PM on Oct 2:
In my experience, having a friendship after a break up is a nice thought but it generally isn't wise. There are a lot of emotions and pain after a relationship ends - trying to navigate how to interact in a healthy way in the midst of all that is incredibly difficult. It's always caused more pain and extended the amount of time it takes to heal.
5. Matt said the following at 3:40 PM on Oct 2:
I think you can be friends but not "friends" after a break up.
With one girl, we ended up not really seeing each other for several months. Eventually, we were able to be friends again. However, we don't do anything one on one anymore.
With another girl, I haven't seen her since we broke up 4 months ago. There weren't bad feelings or anything, it just would be too painful at this point to be around each other.
6. BDB said the following at 3:41 PM on Oct 2:
You know, there's another time when this comes up - after an impetuous divorce. I was surprised recently to learn that an acquaintance was having a birthday dinner with an ex-spouse that filed for divorce three months earlier.
Now, I'm all for reconciliation, it is Biblical. People can make impetuous decisions. If they're realizing they shouldn't have shirked their responsibilities then yes, find a way back.
But once a decision is made...I think the world might be a better place if people enforced a decision. If someone says they're not interested in you specifically, then when they want your time, remind them of that decision. They chose another path.
Though I join C.S. Lewis in rejecting the idea that men and women can't be friends. There are risks when people aren't on the same page. I know too many good marriages that started as friendships to accept the "men and women shouldn't be friends" policy. That policy creates all sorts of operational problems after marriage where people are unable to work together on the day-to-day stuff required to get through life; their only interaction is at the entertainment level. I see lots of divorces stemming from that limited foundation.
7. J said the following at 3:51 PM on Oct 2:
I'm still trying to figure out the whole friendship after a break-up thing. Not quite a year ago, one of my guy friends and I started dating. After several months, we broke up. Though I knew it was best, it was still incredibly painful. I felt like I was losing my best friend and my boyfriend at the same time, which I was.
Though we refer to each other as friends and still see each other regularly (we serve together in a ministry at our church), we don't have the familiarity we did before. Sometimes that really hurts me, not to have that familiarity, but I know that's what's best for both of us. I still care very deeply for him as a person, and I know that spending significant amounts of time together would only confuse things. As it is, I'm still trying to figure out how to let go of my old feelings. I have prayed about it, and will continue to do so. Does anyone have any other suggestions???
8. drc said the following at 4:42 PM on Oct 2:
Glad to see this topic finally getting some time. How do you navigate a breakup if you are forced into a buddy situation afterwards? Such as if you are both part of the same small group at a church.
If you are a guy, and you still care for the girl and believe God would want you to continue to pursue to try to win her back over (but wisely as opposed to recklessly)...should he still make those efforts? Or should he walk away and find a new church, small group, etc?
I see two kind of contradictory concepts. That a man should not pursue a girl unless he's prepared to make her the star of his life and that he should resist hitching on if she is not his star. Do breakups prove the latter?
Lastly, if you are going to be buddies afterwards, why would you break up anyway? That alone makes little sense.
9. Edith said the following at 4:46 PM on Oct 2:
I've noticed that if I have any emotional engagement with a male friend, it quickly develops into an attachment. The simple solution to this is, of course, to have no emotional investment whatsoever in anyone of the opposite sex. What I really wonder, though, is how this relates to the biblical command to love one another as Christ has loved us. I know that His love was, above all, an active choice of self-sacrifice rather than a feeling, but is it possible to care truly and deeply about others without actually feeling any care for them?
10. DannieA said the following at 6:17 PM on Oct 2:
Amen....it's hard to be friends with someone after dating them...I think it's healthier to not be a "buddy" for a long time until both have healed and have moved on with their lives.
11. Marc said the following at 6:41 PM on Oct 2:
I wish I had been man-enough to follow this advice two years, ago. Sadly, I wasn't.
12. Wendy said the following at 7:45 PM on Oct 2:
I think Lauren speaks wisely, about pain and such, but it is such a temptation to still talk and remain friends. We were friends before we had an exclusive relationship and now he's become like a best friend. Niether of us wanted to end the dating relationship, but thought that it was best according to other people's counsel. Can we be still be friends?
13. Wendy said the following at 7:46 PM on Oct 2:
I think Lauren speaks wisely, about pain and such, but it is such a temptation to still talk and remain friends. We were friends before we had an exclusive relationship and now he's become like a best friend. Niether of us wanted to end the dating relationship, but thought that it was best according to other people's counsel. Can we be still be friends?
14. Sheri said the following at 10:32 PM on Oct 2:
The way I see it is that when you break up with someone it was because there was a problem with your relationship. I don't care what it was about this will then transfer over into a friendship you may try to keep with this person. I should know. I was friends with a guy for 14 years and decided to date him. Not smart. We broke up and now we can't stand each other. The things that made us break up, are keeping us from remaining friends.
15. Esther said the following at 5:36 AM on Oct 3:
I just got a call last night from a guy that I dated some years ago. It never worked out, but we've remained friends. In our case, this has meant a casual catch-up phone call of less than an hour every 3-4 months, and 2-3 dinners out to chat over the past 3 years. His intentions are clear, and our conversations are casual: work, hobbies, church, maybe a bit about family. I would be a little disappointed if I never heard from him again, but we in no way depend on each other from day to day. If he were to get married, I would feel no jealousy, merely joy that someone I respect has found a good wife, nor would I feel guilt, for our friendship has been appropriate and godly.
16. Bethany said the following at 7:11 AM on Oct 3:
Thanks for this post. It's worth noting that it works in reverse, as well: Sometimes it's the girl who breaks off a relationship, only to continue pursuing intimacy with the guy she broke up with. I have seen it happen to guys I am close to.
17. ThanksForAnswering said the following at 7:40 AM on Oct 3:
Thanks So Much For Answering My Request! It was confirmation in so many ways. God Bless! These lines said it all!
"I believe it is best for the woman to remove herself from the position of "guiding star" unless, or until, the man is prepared to make her the star in his life. Likewise, the man should resist the temptation to make a woman his "divinity" unless he's prepared to pursue her with integrity."
Thank You SO MUCH!
18. P&P said the following at 7:48 AM on Oct 3:
I have never been friends with an ex, and have caught some flack for it over the years. In fact, I ended a relationship with a man because I felt he was too emotinally intimate with his ex girlfriend.
There real danger with this is that emotional intimacy can lead to sexual intimacy, which leads to serious trouble, especially if the person is an ex.
The reality is that it's too confusing for both parties (as well as friends and family members) and prevents people from forming truly great relationships. After all, if you're investing all this emotional energy into an ex, you don't really have enough for your current or future partner.
I'm all for civility, both in public and private, but expecting anythig more than a polite handshake and chit-chat about the weather from an ex is not healthy.
19. Saidah said the following at 8:42 AM on Oct 3:
I understand how this could be complicated. I dated a guy who was on my gymnastics team, and then broke up with him. Unfortunately, he went on to become my coach for a year and then I ended up as his assistant coach for another year. The entire business was nightmare-ish. Especially since we broke up because I lost a significant amount of respect for him, and also because due to the scrutiny of a very nosy gymnastics community, we kind of had to "like each other." I don't think any of it would have been nearly as complicated if we hadn't been very close friends in the first place and if we hadn't tried to be immediately afterwards. I agree whole-heartedly with Will's comment (#2). Emotional friendships between the sexes can be very compromising.
20. obewan said the following at 9:14 AM on Oct 3:
My experience has been that "buddies after breakup" has a lot to do with Christian maturity.
My roommate was buddies with a sister in the young singles group. They were friends for a long time, and considered the possibility of a "relationship". I think the feeling was mutual that it would not work. When people asked them about what happened, they would just say "tried, did not work out". Nothing about their relationship changed until they were "serious" about other people. They were both mutually happy when they each decided to marry other people.
A true friend would be more interested in the interests of others rather than self even if that means seeing the other person marry someone else. I suppose broken engagements or "serious" relationships that "end" are a different matter.
I will confess that I dated a girl once and could not bring myself to even attend her wedding, but in other cases I have remained close friends after deciding it was not meant to be.
21. Jonathan said the following at 9:30 AM on Oct 3:
I have always had good luck in remaining friends with former girlfriends. There was always a time of avoidance following a break-up, but slowly those activities that brought you together in the first place end up connecting you again, and the friendship has time to reform. I wouldn't say that my friendship with any ex's is the same as it was before we started dating, but it always nice to have friends. I really liked the 2 hour limit, seems like a good baseline.
Question: What is the proper etiquite on wedding invitations to previous girl/boyfriends?
22. Christina (in green) said the following at 10:02 AM on Oct 3:
Hmmm...
One thing is definitly for sure, staying friends with my ex was painful, difficult, and sometimes not worth it - for all involved (including his new girlfriend).
But now, though he is not NEARLY as close a friend as he used to be, we are still friends. I'll have a brief conversation with him on IM every now and then, maybe go out to lunch with him one week...but definitly not nearly as much time as I spent with him when we had just broken up.
However, there are times when I share something with him that may not be THAT personal, but I feel like I'm being disloyal to my fiance by sharing it...nothing bad, only about me, but still...like it was like crossing that intimacy boundary.
I've never defined that boundary, I just have this niggling feeling on occassion...and when I have it, I stop what I'm doing. I don't feel like ignoring that sign from my conscience.
But those months after just breaking up were the most painful months I have ever been through - and they were not healthy and prevented my current relationship from kicking off. I don't really recommend it.
23. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:36 AM on Oct 3:
I do tend to agree that once a romantic attempt has begun and subsequently failed, it is very difficult to maintain a good, healthy, friendship or to "go back to the way things were before". And that it's often wiser to keep a distance.
However, that brings up a question for Suzanne (et al). Many women I've talked to have said, "I want to be friends first before we date". That means that in some ways, the girl (not always the girl, but for this example) is helping to set up this "bad" situation (i.e. a terminated friendship) if things don't work out romantically. Although it is understandable why a woman (or man, but I find it often is the woman [see Ladder Theory]) would want this it can seem like an unnecessary prerequisite especially when it's clear that the guy wants to pursue a romantic relationship and not simply a platonic friendship. Is this fair on the guy (and the girl)? Should such "friends first" caveats be discouraged?
Interested in hearing what you all have to say.
24. Michelle said the following at 1:35 PM on Oct 3:
I dated a guy last year, but I didn't have strong feeling for him. In fact, I broke up with him because I was pretty indifferent about him. We're still friends today, but it's a casual relationship, so I don't see much harm in it. However, we almost dated over the summer, but I know that he's intentional about pursuing girls, so I never have to have a DTR with him. It's nice.
I'd say, the more emotionally/physically/spiritually involved you were with your significant other, the more you should stay away from a friendship.
25. BDB said the following at 4:30 PM on Oct 3:
Wendy (#13) wrote:
>>Niether of us wanted to end the dating relationship, but thought that it was best according to other people's counsel. Can we be still be friends?<<
Um...without knowing the ages or other aspects of the situation, it's hard to respond.
Were these godly people who saw a Biblical problem with the relationship? Or were these buddies who thought you were too young to be in a serious relationship? Something else?
26. BDB said the following at 4:35 PM on Oct 3:
I'm agreeing with P&P here:
>>There real danger with this is that emotional intimacy can lead to sexual intimacy, which leads to serious trouble, especially if the person is an ex. <<
I do know a woman who got involved with an ex-boyfriend. Unfortunately, he was married at the time, and moved back to town, started complaining to her that his wife didn't understand him, etc. He wanted to use her as an escape route from his marriage. Very sad. She should have told him to go home to his wife.
27. suzanne said the following at 4:59 PM on Oct 3:
Mike,
Personally, I don't think the "bad" situation of cutting off the friendship post-breakup should (or can) be avoided. There absolutely needs to be a friendship before (or at the least during) the formation of the romantic relationship. I have learned this the hard way, when I ended up in a very intentional relationship with someone I didn't have a natural friendship with. So that's my answer. Build the friendship as much as possible while you're considering the relationship's romantic potential; but if the romantic relationship ends, avoid close companionship that imitates dating.
28. Lynn said the following at 10:24 PM on Oct 3:
A while ago I met a guy who was pursuing me very earnestly for marriage. We began to date, then right around the time that I was warming up to the idea of being his wife -- he changed his mind. Of course, afterwards he wanted to be "friends".
I refused - I thought that was just ridiculous, but in the midst of that very emotional time, I couldn't put my finger on anything concrete -- or articulate exactly why being "friends" was such a stupid idea -- I just knew that the thought of being his buddy after that felt completely wrong. Most people told me I was the one who was wrong.
I recently read “Revelations of a Single Woman: Loving the life I didn’t expect”by Connally Gilliam. She included in her book an email message that she sent to a man after he accused her of "pulling back" after he made it clear that he wasn’t interested in marrying her. Here is the excerpt from her book. p. 28
"You are right when you sense that I am 'pulling back', but I’d like to take a minute to explain. See, Simon, a woman’s heart is a lot like a garden. There are, in the garden, public areas. This is where almost anyone can traverse (read: decent colleagues, the kind checker at the grocery store, the rare person on the subway who gives up his or her seat, neighbors who want to borrow a tool, parents of friends, little kids in the park, etc.).
Then there is the center of her garden. It’s a special place, reserved ultimately for that person who wants to commit to 'husband her garden permanently', so to speak. ...
Anyhow, the tricky part, of course, is that there’s this in-between place, somewhere between the inner sanctum and the outer ring, and that’s where this gets all confusing. Basically, Simon, the folks I let into this more fluid in-between part are some key family members, longtime girlfriends, a few guys I consider brothers, my boss who I know cares for me, and guys who are interested in exploring the idea of entering into that inner sanctum. The problem, Simon, is that once a guy who I like – and Simon, I have felt chemistry between us – decides he’s not particularly interested in long-term inner sanctum husbandry, I can’t let him wander all around the middle ground anymore. If I do, then he inevitably crosses lines he doesn’t know he’s crossing, and I inevitably try to pull him into the center. He can’t figure out why I’m all upset (because, after all, he was honest about his lack of intentions), and I keep hoping I’m going to change him. That, Simon, is a recipe for disaster.
So, brother Simon, that’s the scoop. I hope this helps. I do care about you, and I want you in my public areas, so to speak. But in light of everything you’ve said, for now, that’s all I can invite."
So to borrow from Connaly Gilliam, once someone's an ex, it's wise to restrict them to the "public garden".
29. E Louise! said the following at 10:47 PM on Oct 3:
In response to Johnathan (#21):
"Question: What is the proper etiquette on wedding invitations to previous girl/boyfriends?"
ANSWER: Don't invite them!
Perhaps my answer depends on the circumstances involved in those prior relationships, but overall it seems a bit inappropriate. One can only wonder what someone would be thinking (memories, regrets, etc.) while they watched someone they may have once been serious about marry someone else. Even if they have completely moved on, the human tendency to reminisce is likely. I certainly do not want my past beaus looking on while I enter into a covenant with my husband.
But then again, I'm not keen on post break-up friendships.
30. Katie said the following at 6:05 PM on Oct 4:
Mike Theemling: I was surprised that you thought that friendship before romance was an 'unnecessary prerequisite'.
As a woman, I have come to believe it is in fact quite necessary to be friends first. Would I marry someone I wouldn't want as a friend? of course not. so why would I want to start a relationship in which I would be emotionally vulnerable and attached to someone if I don't know whether or not my/our affection is actually based on how we get along, rather than just feelings, or how the other fits our 'list'.
that doesn't exclude being intentional, but it does make things safer until those intentions prove to be well-founded.
The worst break up I experienced was where I got emotionally involved without knowing him well enough to discern whether or not I should get involved. it is also the only one I did not remain friendly with.
31. Bob said the following at 7:38 PM on Oct 4:
Amen, amen, amen. Men need to pick up the mantle of integrity. We shouldn't communicate in action what we cannot honestly communicate in words.
32. Dan L said the following at 8:34 PM on Oct 5:
I have similar thoughts as Mike Theemling (#23), though I don't know if I come to the same conclusions.
It's almost as if the only possible way to avoid the much maligned "buddy" status is to only date total strangers or someone you only barely know. I highly doubt that the staff at Boundless or Focus would endorse that strategy.
Instead, it seems like a better idea to get to know the young woman at least a little first before you start seriously pursuing her. And then what happens when you make that known to the young woman, and she informs you that while she considers you a good friend, she has not felt any romantic interest? Am I to pull up all my roots and abandon my commitments at my local church, and burn bridges just to avoid being around her?
33. Brett said the following at 12:45 AM on Oct 6:
I guess from my own recent dating experience I feel that distance and less contact imediatly after the breakup is required.Having just been in an on/off again relationship for approx 8 months in which we must have broke up 8 to 10 times with myself not commiting the most.During the the time after the breakup we both wanted to remain friends and without planning it kept getting back together,then the same areas that brought the breakup about would rise up.I wish I had been stronger and not allowed my emotions to get in the way,Never again.Sometimes it is the hardest to be honest with yourself!!
The problem I face now is that she keeps trying to contact me,which I am finding hard not to respond.(I am guessing she's hopeing to get back together).The whole problem is one that we(I)have created.
I pray that this post helps others see where being friends after a breakup can have its problems.
34. Catherine said the following at 5:00 AM on Oct 6:
preach it sister!
35. k.k. said the following at 10:07 AM on Oct 6:
Lynn #28
I'm glad you took the time to post the exerpt of the email from the book. I may check it out.
This quote stuck out to me: "The problem, Simon, is that once a guy who I like – and Simon, I have felt chemistry between us – decides he’s not particularly interested in long-term inner sanctum husbandry, I can’t let him wander all around the middle ground anymore. If I do, then he inevitably crosses lines he doesn’t know he’s crossing, and I inevitably try to pull him into the center. He can’t figure out why I’m all upset (because, after all, he was honest about his lack of intentions), and I keep hoping I’m going to change him. That, Simon, is a recipe for disaster.
So, brother Simon, that’s the scoop. I hope this helps. I do care about you, and I want you in my public areas, so to speak. But in light of everything you’ve said, for now, that’s all I can invite."
I'm currently going through a similar situation with a bro in Christ who I liked and he made it clear that he just wants a bro/sis in Christ relationship. So I decided to pull back from our email convos and commenting on his blog and he noticed. I, like Ms. Connie, have to put him to the "public area" and to follow through on it. Please pray for my strength!
36. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:51 AM on Oct 6:
Suzanne/Katie,
First, thank you for the replies.
To address Katie's response (which Suzanne echoes):
"I was surprised that you thought that friendship before romance was an 'unnecessary prerequisite'.
As a woman, I have come to believe it is in fact quite necessary to be friends first. Would I marry someone I wouldn't want as a friend?"
I guess the answer to that question would be that just about up until the 20th century for all of human history it never was like this (as a whole). The idea of men and women "being friends" without actively pursuing anything romantically just didn't happen and everyone (men and women) were aware of that unwritten rule. In some societies, you never spoke to a women in public, and you definitely didn't hang out one on one as "just friends" (any hanging out was done at a social gathering such a ball).
I'm not saying that your personal preference of the "friend's first" approach is a sinful, but I definitely know it wasn't the norm until very recently and thus wouldn't say that it's "necessary" for the population (for yourself perhaps).
I'll be upfront to say why I am suspicious of this "friends first" mantra. For one, it's not uncommon that that line be used as a polite rejection of a romantic initiation.
Secondly (and here is where it gets a little dicey), oftentimes it is disingenuous. Here is what I mean by that. I'll just my own experiences as an example (and am aware that anecdotal evidence isn't very convincing but stay with me for a bit). I initiate something with a girl, asking her out 1 on 1 for coffee or something. I then get the "I want to be friends first" spiel. OK, fair enough. To me, that is an invitation that I can do "friendly" things towards that person. Call occassionally, send funny e-mails, i.e. doing reasonable things which would enhance a friendship. However, often these acts don't get reciprocated. Rather, I just get ignored completely. You see where the problem is here? Obviously, the girl DIDN'T really want to be "just friends" because if she genuinely did, she would at least attempt at some kind of friendship. But no attempt of building the friendship whatsoever by her meant that A) She treats most friends fairly poorly or B) She really didn't mean it when she said "I just want to be friends".
Why is this problem primarily with men and not with women? Because as the ladder theory explains (which I believe is more true than not), women can separate platonic friendships from romantic relationships and men almost always cannot.
True, a guy is probably trying to be friends with a girl hoping that she will change her mind about him, and maybe he's just wasting his efforts. But at least he is trying to accomodate the girl's prerequisites of "friend's first". I don't know what the girl thinks/feels. Maybe she's thinking, "Jeez, can't this guy take a hint I'm not interested and leave me alone?" If that's the case, then I would argue it's better not to advertise the "friends first" angle unless she is willing to make good on it. A flat out, "Thank you for your interest, but I'm not interested in anything romantic" would be more of a favor to the guy. But what if a girl is genuinely "on the fence" and doesn't mind the friendship? Would she be open to it? And in her mind, what separates "being friends" from "dating"? Would she really believe a guy who says, "Let's go out for coffee as friends and talk"?
Would like to hear anyone else who has something to contribute to this topic.
37. Andrea-Elena said the following at 11:11 AM on Oct 6:
Dan L:
I agree with you. When some women say "I want us to establish a friendship first," those women are not rebuffing the romantic pursuit but are stating that they would like to lay the friendship-foundationwork that is so key to a romantic relationship and to take developing the romance (ie. "love") part slowly, rather than rushing into a romance at the get-go. This is especially true if the woman hasn't interacted with the man enough to sense that she would be giving him a fair assessment should she assess him right then. Perhaps she simply wants the opportunity to reciprocate his interest in getting to know each other better, with "official dating" in view, without leading him on, without promising something she's not ready to deliver on.
Other women may mean exactly what most guys infer "I want to be friends first" implies.
I don't know how to suggest discerning which group a woman hails from.
I myself prefer to get to know a man somewhat before he approaches me for an official date. I'd rather not be asked out by a complete stranger I just met.
But I can understand that someone I meet at, say, any one of the numerous Fourbucks locations in my area is not necessarily someone I'm going to run into regularly, so going ahead and getting to know him via dating might be the smartest thing to do.
But a guy I meet at church should be able to find ways to get to know me a bit before asking me out on a date.
What I find befuddling is that some guys don't come out and clearly ask for a date.
One guy friend intentionally and respectfully and wisely (not overcautiously, but not rashly) pursued a mutual friend of ours and did ask her out on a date. I affirmed him for doing so. (They are now dating seriously. I hope I hear wedding bells for them in the distance!! *grin*)
So yes... get to know her a bit as a person, but also don't wait too long to express your interest in her as a woman! =) The window of opportunity is different in each situation, but waiting years is definitely not wise (unless for some odd reason God has directed you to wait that long before pursuing a particular female).
After a rejection to a date, why should a man feel that he has to uproot himself from his support network and to try avoiding the gal he asked out? I mean, they didn't break up from a long-term relationship.
Both men and women have got to work at getting over rejection, becoming a bit more resilient, and not holding against people what has happened in the past. Being civil or cordial to one another isn't impossible. Learn the art of "the smile of freely offered goodwill."
38. Andrea-Elena said the following at 11:25 AM on Oct 6:
Mike Theemling:
If a guy friend sends me funny e-mails, I might forward them on to others but not reply back to him. Funny fwds don't really need replies; I don't care who they're from.
Now... an actual conversation on e-mail or text? That's different. Tell me something about what's going on in your life, and ask about me and my life ---> that's fodder for a good conversation via e-mail. =) I usually will respond to friends, guys or gals. Unless I'm trying to avoid the person. (Which, yes, is passive-aggressive behavior and shouldn't be done... I agree.)
What separates being friends from dating? Well, for me, it's this:
friends only ---> spend time in groups
friends exploring the option to date ---> spend one-on-one time together during the day, plus spending time in groups
dating ---> spend one-on-one time together at night, plus daytime one-on-one outings and group outings
I also am of the opinion that guys and gals rarely can be or should be buddies. I think your opposite-sex buddy should be the one you're dating.
I no longer have close guy pals. My close pals are women. My confidants are women. The male confidant spot is now open for a boyfriend.
I'm taking applications! ;oP
39. composer girl said the following at 12:11 PM on Oct 6:
Lynn (#28):
Thank you. The garden analogy really resonated with me.
"...there’s this in-between place, somewhere between the inner sanctum and the outer ring...the folks I let into this more fluid in-between part are some key family members, longtime girlfriends, a few guys I consider brothers...and guys who are interested in exploring the idea of entering into that inner sanctum."
Before my first boyfriend and I started dating, he was a casual acquaintance and a colleague, someone in my "public garden." When we began dating, he was allowed into the in-between which had previously been off-limits to all men outside of my family. When we broke up, we both wanted to remain friends, but I instinctively kept him in my public garden for a long time. Now that I've had a while to heal, he is becoming one of my few non-biological brothers who is allowed a little ways into the in-between garden. I don't let myself rely on him emotionally, but I do consider him a friend with whom I can mutually share some of life's joys and burdens, just as I would share them with other close friends and family.
When I'm an another relationship, I don't think that my friendship with him will compete with my relationship with my boyfriend. I'll still share what's going on in my life with him, but the most important man in my life will be the one who is pursuing me romantically.
40. Jo said the following at 12:30 PM on Oct 6:
"Because as the ladder theory explains (which I believe is more true than not), women can separate platonic friendships from romantic relationships and men almost always cannot."
I agree with you about ladder theory. And this is the thing: guys often worry that if they take the time to get to know a girl before asking her out that they'll get relegated to the 'friend zone'. But in my experience when that happens, chances are they were in the friend zone all along and just didn't realise. If a guy is on the 'potential ladder' he usually stays there. Unless he reveals aspects of his character that put her off - and if that's gonna happen, better that it happens while they're 'just friends'. :)
I went on holiday with a mixed group of friends just after I heard about ladder theory. It became a running joke - when the guys annoyed us, we girls would look at them disapprovingly and say "off the ladder."
41. dc said the following at 12:30 PM on Oct 6:
Im still wondering the same as Dan in post 32. If you are broken up with does that mean you need to walk away from everything you share such as church community, mutual friends if you cannot handle the loss of the relationship? This is kind of personal for me because Ive been churchless going on a year now simply the girl I was in a relationship abruptly ended it; then almost immediately started getting back together with a guy she effectively promised she would not date again. I do realize I could just go somewhere else. Its just I felt pretty committed to that community and feel like that is betraying them. I still keep up the friendships outside of church and group settings. I think the only reasons to be buddies after a breakup is if it was totally mutual such that either of you could immediately get involved with another person and not hurt the others feelings, or if its not mutual both sides can be intentional about letting God lead them back together or further apart.
42. Kellie said the following at 1:24 PM on Oct 6:
I think in most cases the "friends first" idea is a myth (the only excpetion might be a couple who have grown up together). My husband and I were "friends" for several months before we began dating...but in reality it was never platonic for either of us.
43. BDB said the following at 1:27 PM on Oct 6:
Lynn (#29) wrote a good thing.
I particularly like the middle garden/public garden part. That's a good description. I think that's better than the absolute communication cut-off with no explanation. There's lots of biographies I've read where men decided to propose specifically because their future wives said, "No, you can't cross this line." The most clear is when Colin Powell's wife said, "I will not be the girlfriend of a soldier deployed overseas for another tour." He had to pick - propose or separate. He proposed.
44. AmberJ said the following at 4:54 PM on Oct 6:
Jonathan #21,
I was going to respond to your question regarding wedding invitations to former boyfriends/girlfriends....but
E Louise!#29 kinda took the words right out of my mouth :)
45. Katie B said the following at 7:09 PM on Oct 6:
Mike Theemling:
both your first and second points sound like they are probably the same, she doesn't want to say she just doesn't like you, and probably she thinks your a fine, nice guy, just doesn't have any interest. when you take them up on the 'friends' thing, they still have no interest, or they start to read way too much into every little thing. I forgot that this happens so much.
As to the cultural stuff, your absolutely right, however I am glad things are different now, even if things are more complicated. In some cultures, people don't meet their future spouses until the wedding day, many cultures matches are chosen (or bought) by parents, which, while avoiding the friends after breakup issue, doesn't necessarily lead to a biblical, and healthy love relationship. I don't just want to be one in flesh with my future husband, but I want to be all one with him, and to enjoy it.
46. Leah said the following at 7:24 PM on Oct 6:
drc- I don't believe a small group at church is a "buddy" situation. There is no requirement for a personal relationship between the two of you.
Mike Theemling and Jo- I think the ladder theory is spot-on! I've discussed it with girls and guys alike and they all agree. But to whoever said that guys can't distinguish between platonic and romantic relationships, I'm not quite sure that's true. A guy's single ladder has platonic friendships down the bottom, and possible-romantic up the top, yeah? He can distinguish the two, it's just that it's possible the girls down the bottom can climb higher.
For guys however, they have to make a complete leap onto another ladder to become potential mates with a girl!
Dan L and DC- I don't see why you'd have to completely uproot. Sure, some things would have to change. If you have many of the same friends, you simply might have to hang around with a different arrangement of friends. If you're in the same bible study group, you might have to switch. You might rearrange which ministries you serve in.
Certainly, you will have to learn to cope with seeing the person every Sunday (if you don't have multiple services to choose from). But it's not forcing you to have extended conversations with them or spend any alone time with them. With time and a purposeful effort in how you arrange the time spent within your church community, it can be done :)
47. confused said the following at 8:10 PM on Oct 6:
I'd really like to know how this works with unrequited love. I let my guy friend know I was interested in more but he said he is not. I know I am attractive and we seem to click well on many levels. Is it wise to stay friends in this case? I think we have the same background, education, career paths, family values, political ideas, humor and help each other spiritually and emotionally etc. I feel very hurt and confused but I wish I didn't becuase I don't want our friendship to be harmed. At the same time he doesn't take a lot of initiative and I sometimes feel like if I stopped communicating with him our "closeness" would fade away. Still he does say I'm one of his best friends.
48. drc said the following at 11:04 AM on Oct 7:
Thanks for the response Leah (#46). One thing though, Ive found spending time around her only adds to the pain of it all. Just a nice reminder of how you were once close, and now are not. Besides, who can reasonably cope going from practically being a girl's bf, to her being some other guy's gf all in about two weeks? Just because something can be done doesnt mean it is wise to do so. Could there be some situations where the right thing is for the person who ended the relationship to go elsewhere? Getting broken up with is enough pain for most people, why add it to by forcing your now ex to have deal with you as you go on and start seeing other people?
Confused (#47)...ha, what is wrong with this guy? He is single and available I presume? So you are attractive...and you both have alot in common and get along well. Seems totally reasonable you would develop feelings, so dont kick yourself for that. From what Ive experienced with unrequited love, I dont think there is much you can do about it. Cutting off contact is no guarantee to either cause the other person to suddenly want you, nor will it necessarily cause your feelings to dwindle any. The other harsh reality Ive found...being friends with a person you have feelings for is basically not possible. Would you want to be his close friend if he started dating another girl for example? I think the best way to handle it is to pray about it. I dont believe God will usurp someone elses free will such that they return your love. I do believe he can lead the way, and guide hearts such that person may be more inclined to make that choice...if it is His will to so, of course. I think its a matter of personal conviction for you as to whether God is leading you both together and you just happened to get the memo first, or whether you just developed feelings for a guy who make a perfectly fine husband for you but isnt the guy God is leading you too.
49. hlc said the following at 2:50 PM on Oct 7:
Wow - #47, your situation sounds identical to me! About a year ago, I also asked a male friend about taking our friendship to the next level. It was a bit awkward for both of us for about a month, but I think we both made the effort to show the other that despite the fact we didn't line up on issue of being more than friends, we both cared about the other and the friendship. I have kept the close friendship, though, it has been hard sometimes. i've spent so much time in prayer about it and came to the belief that my life was better for the friendship and was worth the times where I still struggle with my feelings for more from the friendship. I also try to examine my motives when doing things for/with him and whether I'm doing it in hopes of changing his mind or if I would do it for any of my male friends. I don't know . . . I think each of us are a little different in how best to handle this tricky thing of male/female friendships. I'll be praying for you #47.
50. k.k. said the following at 5:56 PM on Oct 7:
Hey #47,
Since I'm going through a similar situation as you...I want to recommend that you really evaluate this relationship. It seems as if your friend has already determined that he just wants to be friends and nothing else, so I recommend that you back off a bit and pray. Ask your sisters in Christ to pray for your strength to back away.
There is no use in you trying to hold on. Some women (like myself) sometimes think that there is no one else like this man on the planet. The guy I liked has a lot of the characteristics I prefer, but he sees me as just a sis in Christ. If it God's will, he will give you the gift of someone (maybe your friend later on, maybe another) who will want to pursue you. Trust in God!
It may be possible that it's not the right time, the guy is not ready for the responsibility right now, or he just is not interested at all with you for whatever reasons.
I've been searching for some books on the topics of "emotional attachments/purity" and came across these books:
Emotional Purity: An Affair of the Heart by Heather Arnel Paulsen and
Eyes Wide Open: Avoiding the Heartbreak of Emotional Promiscuity by Brienne Murk
I just ordered them and I hope they will offer alot of insight on what I need to do to avoid another 'emotional attachment'.
I pray the Lord's will be done in your life. Most of us single women (points at self) need to do a better job at establishing/keeping our boundaries with our bros in Christ and the bros need to be more aware of how most women get emotionally attached early on in the friendship (even though they think they don't), so that alot of these issues can be avoided. But, God is so faithful! He uses these situations to draw us closer to Him and to help us encourage and counsel another sister who will go through something like this.
God Bless!
51. Stephanie said the following at 11:45 PM on Oct 7:
Edith (#9) --
It looks like no one answered your question, so I felt like I had to respond. This is an issue I've thought about before so much, too! As girls, we are so emotional and it seems like it doesn't take much for us to develop emotional attachments to guys.
I think to put it in perspective we would do well to look at the kind/ loving/ caring/ compassionate emotions that we feel for our girlfriends, relatives, older people, families and children in our lives, etc. We have these emotions and they are GOOD emotions.In perspective, there is nothing essentially wrong with having similar emotions for male friends, acquaintances, etc. We SHOULD care about people and love them from our hearts because that's how God feels about them.
Basically, in my experience, it all comes down to our focus. If our focus is on Jesus and his love for us and for others, then we have freedom in his grace to love all kinds of people lavishly: men, women, children, old people, young people, Christian, non-Christian, etc. But if our focus is on attracting attention and getting a guy to notice us, then we have to be careful about who it is we're trying to attract and why.
Are we "caring" about him in a selfish way? (E.g., wanting to "have" him, trying to attract his attention, etc.) Or do we submit him to God and ask God to supply his needs, with or without us?
Just my thoughts. ;-)
52. Sarah P. said the following at 7:38 AM on Oct 8:
Ya, #47, I can sympathize greatly. #48 gives great, wise advice. And I would like to add that it hurts like heck to walk away... you feel like, if I could only get this guy to see what I see, it would all work out!
Perhaps you see right. Maybe he is a perfectly wise choice. But none of us see everything. We cannot possibly guess what will happen tomorrow. Truth is, there are probably a number of wise choices out there.
If you've done all you've said, could be that the best (and hardest!) thing is to walk away. God probably has more for you to do than to invest unrequited time and energy on an unresponsive man. What are some of the things you could do instead? "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you."
The joyful thing about this time, as I'm sure you've found out already, is the kinship you share with Christ. This terrible pain is what He feels for us!
53. JR... said the following at 2:26 PM on Oct 8:
Amber #44,
Thanks! Seems like all the women say no, but most guys are open to it. I got to thinking about who I would ask, and then realized that although still friends, I don't think we are close enough anymore to warrant an invite. I don't think inviting people based on being close in the past is very wise, probably should just stick to those you are close to now.
54. Prince Andrei said the following at 2:31 PM on Oct 8:
Hey #48 drc,
I'm going through something very similar at the moment. My girlfriend of a few months just broke up with me but I still care for her deeply (apparently she also feels the same way towards me, but also feels that we are "too different" to make it work).
Based on my strong feelings for her and my past experience with another broken relationship, I know I can't be friends with her. In fact, just being around her is very, very painful.
We go to the same church, same small group, and serve in another ministry together as well. Am I ever in trouble right now! Praise God that He is always with us.
Here's another question that I'm wrestling with: Does the fact that I'm still pining away for her indicate that my "love" for her is really selfish and immature? Would my love be more profound if I could just joyfully let her go and wish her the best?
55. AJ... said the following at 8:10 PM on Oct 8:
JR #53,
You sound like a good guy....wise, too! Guess that is just something that every couple has to figure along the way....since all relationships are different and end differently. Like I said, you sound good, wise, etc. :)
56. Jabawa said the following at 10:03 PM on Oct 8:
In my opinion, a majority of problems I've seen in relationships, is: One of the two, or both in some cases, committed to the relationship prematurely. It takes sacrifice and maturity for the relationship to blossom into a marriage. Marriage is the reason you are dating in the first place, right. So, if you don't fully have your heart set on committing to marriage, don't bother starting a relationship, it will only end in failure/problems.
57. drc said the following at 9:53 AM on Oct 9:
hey #54 prince andrei
So you just got broke up with? Hopefully it works out different for you, but it never got better for me. Oddly enough, it was actually in some ways a bit better right after the breakup. Ive been stuck in this situation for a year and it hasnt gotten any easier to be around her. Hope you dont mind if I ask, but how does she treat you and interact with you now? Does she try to be friendly and kind? Ive been under 'cold shoulder' status ever since with my ex. The kind where if we were walking up to a table, she would see where I sat...then make sure to sit as far as possible. Where she would make the effort to be friendly to others, but completely ignore me...and heaven forbid when we did exchange pleasantries, her tone of voice was very irritated, borderline venomous sounding. Do you think you could handle her being with another guy, even if you never had to see them together? Have you considered not going to church anymore, of finding another? I hope you can work through it so you dont have to. Just in my experience the pain became unbearable and I felt I had no choice but leave. If you feel that you have to I dont think it is wrong to though.
As for pining away indicate your love is selfish. Why would it? I would feel pretty slighted if someone accused me of having selfish love for my ex simply because my feelings didnt change like hers did. I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting to be with someone, or hoping that your relationship can work out again. Im anything but happy for my ex for having got back into a relationship that has no marriage in sight (3+ years total dating). I dont see how that is selfish. I just dont agree with the idea that if you really love someone you wont care.
#56 That is an interesting thought, that problem relationships result from one or both sided premature commitment. Supposing the commitment is one-sided, would you think the person who committed too soon is mostly at fault for the (probably inevitable) relationship issues? How does one know its time to really commit anyway? Generally, most relationships happen before both sides know they are going to marry each other. Its a real catch-22 if you cant really commit if you dont know if you are going to end up with each other, but you cant know if you are going to end up with each other if you cant commit...ugh, thats a mouthful, but you get the idea I hope. Anyway, Im thiking the opposite, that alot of relationship issues...blowups..etc, are due to a lack of a commitment. You can commit to seeing a relationship through, to pursuing God's leading in the relationship, without formally commiting to the person you are with. I think that can go a long ways towards not walking out on a relationship as soon as you arent happy with it, and easing the heartache if it doesnt work (since presumably you would both eventually know God wasnt leading you more together).
58. britgirl said the following at 9:59 AM on Oct 9:
thanks for all the comments. Just to add in that I have been through a painful and devastating breakup which included me having to be on staff at a church where my ex then dated someone else and got engaged in front of my face...every week was so hard and I am so grateful for all God taught me through this and am now happily worshipping somewhere else having been called to a new ministry area in our city. Basically we tried to remain friends and our break up was very confusing, and this new relationship was kind of rebounding...but now all contact has been cut off and I have simply prayed that we will never have contact again unless God allows it. I still pray for him. This new relationship has been advised by leaders to not go forward into marriage so that is hard..praying he will humble himself and end it, but not for my sake, for his own sake and relationship with God
59. drc said the following at 12:58 PM on Oct 9:
Based on personal experience and some of the experiences people are letting out here. If you are in a relationship with a person and you share a church, young adult group, friends, etc. Then you decide to end said relationship. Is the most right thing for you to do to leave that church, group, etc to spare your now ex further emotional trauma? At the very least have a talk with them and let them know you will do what it takes to make it as easy on them as possible; even that means taking on some of the burden yourself. Just something Ive thought about at times.
60. Sarah P. said the following at 4:03 PM on Oct 9:
drc (#59): That is a very noble question. Myself, something that really helped in a situation of unrequited love was the bit from Corrie Ten Boom's book The Hiding Place, when she finds out Karel, the young man she loves dearly, can never marry her - he will marry someone else. She knows she will never love anyone the same way again. And her father tells her (I paraphrase):
"When love is halted, that causes pain. You can choose to cut off that part of yourself, but then something dies. Or you can ask God to redirect it."
So she prays, "Lord, give me a more perfect love." A little later in her life, as she is sitting in the audience at Karel's wedding, she finds that God has left nothing but joy in her heart.
So I asked, "Lord, turn this to a more perfect love." Every day, I pray, "Teach me more about love." And I work at a place where I see this person every day, where we share(d) friend circles - and we attend the same church.
I can truthfully say that God has changed me more than I thought possible this last year. As God taught me about dying to self daily, it seemed that I had to be the one to back away and give space. I (an extrovert) basically retreated into myself and then a completely new small circle over the period of several excruciating months. God also completely refined my life purpose and vision, giving me strength and confidence far beyond myself. I look back at this year, and I am amazed at God's glory. I have been parched and starving for Him daily, and He has been there whenever I asked.
Be encouraged. Stand strong, if you need to stand. Start over elsewhere new if you need to move. As for me, I know that God still has more glory to show in this location. :P
61. Leah said the following at 6:22 PM on Oct 9:
drc- I think it really depends on what your church environment is like. Is it big enough that you can lose each other in it? Can you choose to attend a different service? Can you choose to serve in different ministries? Can you choose to attend different bible studies or Sunday school classes? If your church is one where you can't get that distance, then yeah, I agree that your last option might be to leave.
62. drc said the following at 1:45 PM on Oct 10:
Thanks Leah (#61). The church itself is medium-large in size and has other services. However, the young adults group is small so that there is no hiding. Hence, yes, leaving seemed like the only option.
63. Kelly said the following at 5:51 AM on Oct 12:
Dear friends:
If one of you hoped to marry the other... you CANNOT be friends after the break up. Let me repeat: you CANNOT be friends. Don't try to stay in touch, don't pretend that it's going to be a slow break, don't tell yourself that there's still hope.
The only way to get past the pain is to have a complete break from the other person. Maybe you can be friends again after several months, but trust me, short and sharp pain now is better than prolonged months of hanging on.
64. Andrei said the following at 8:32 AM on Oct 13:
drc #57: She and I have talked about getting back together. It may be possible to restore the relationship.
What frustrates me in all of this is that the reason for the breakup is not the kind of thing that should lead to a breakup (in my opinion).
How does she treat me now? Well, she's not unkind, in fact she thinks we can still be friends. I just don't really see how that is possible. The last time I was in church with her it was very uncomfortable. And, honestly, I don't think I could handle her being with another guy. I have considered going to a different church but am leading a small group and have other leadership responsibilities.
If we do "finalize" the breakup and she keeps going to my small group, I'm planning on asking her to change groups. I am also planning on going to a different church service (my church has multiple services).
Pray for me brother and I will pray for you. We both need God's help.
Sarah P. #60: Thanks for sharing that story about Corrie Ten Boom. It sounds like you have been able to trust God, and have handled the situation with grace. Are you on good terms with your ex? Have you had to take steps to protect your heart?
Kelly #63: I wish you were wrong, but am getting more convinced that you are right!
65. J said the following at 7:55 PM on Oct 12:
Thank you Suzanne for writing this article. I've been struggling with this lately. Today's many ways of maintaing communication isn't helping with AIM, Facebook, etc. Having had an intimate relationship when not ready for marriage has its emotions still lingering. The relationship may be over, but the residual feelings are still there.
Being a guy I'm expected to man-up and drive-on with my life while dealing with the issues that are still affecting me from this past relationship: emotional ties, sexual thoughts, and excommunication. These topics aren't really topics for guys to talk about.
I'm glad my accountability partner has my back, keeps encouraging me, and tells me what I'm doing wrong with a solution from the bible. If it wasn't for my buddy, I would be very lost.
It's sad that this situation can occur to Christians, but we are all sinners. This shows our weakness and how we need to rely on our brothers and sisters in Christ even more. Don't shoo them away. They're there to help you out. Also God will always catch you when you fall.