Whom Not to Marry
by Motte Brown on 09/30/2008 at 9:59 AM
I think I've mentioned before how much I enjoy top 10 lists. And this one by Anthony Esolen from Mere Comments is no exception. (Though it's actually a top 20 list.) It's his personal observations about whom not to marry. He confesses they're a little "facetious" but you can tell he thinks they're true. Indeed, some are no-brainers, some are funny, and some are just plain ridiculous. Here's a sample of each:
The No-Brainer
4. Don't marry anybody who insists on a separate bank account, bed, bathroom, vacation, or zip code. It makes no sense to be one flesh and two wallets.
The Funny
7. Don't marry a woman who exercises so frequently that you cannot tell if she is a woman or a very strange looking 13-year-old boy. I'm going out on a line here, but the real purpose of the rule is to determine whether she will mind getting fat, as happens when you are going to have a child. In other words, don't marry a woman whom you cannot imagine having a child. Do not marry a woman who does not like children.
The Ridiculous
6. Don't marry a man who does not like dogs. Such men do not like children. Don't marry a man who does not like children. On the other hand, I have known at least one excellent man who thought he didn't like children, until he had some; seven, I think, at last count. Perhaps the rule may be rephrased: Don't marry a man whom you cannot imagine rolling on the ground in a wrestling hold, with a Labrador retriever or three children, or hollering on a ferris wheel, with a Labrador retriever or three children.
Number six is ridiculous because I love children, but not dogs. So much so, I'm adopting four from Ethiopia sometime in December, Lord willing. I just don't see the connection.
Which "rules" fit these categories for you?
1. Carrie (the original) said the following at 10:42 AM on Sep 30
I'm on the fence about #9. There is a difference between "sneering" and playfully disassociating yourself from the man events.
I can imagine myself rolling my eyes and saying "Honey, I can't believe you want to watch the ______ game, again!" However, it's part of the act. I can actually believe it and allow him to enjoy the _____ game.
(sidenote: I've been known to tell Cardinals fans that "It's just a game!". Don't ever do this without expecting some wrath.)
2. Kate said the following at 10:50 AM on Sep 30
I thought most of these were quite silly or downright not even funny... but this one struck me as actually important and notable:
"15. Never marry a man who is not admired by respectable male friends. The people in the world who know a man best are the men he works and plays with. They know well if he is a cheat, a thug, a loser. You may marry a man who does not have female friends. If anything, you should be suspicious of a man whose friends are principally female. The men may be avoiding him, and there is a reason for that."
3. Saidah said the following at 10:56 AM on Sep 30
I think the point is because having kids is a lot like having a high-energy dog. It's dad's job to run around, get dirty, pay attention, not mind poop in all the wrong places, not mind someone jumping on your lap while you're trying to work, etc. I must say though, I know guys who like kids who don't really LOVE dogs, but I've never met a really fun dad who just didn't like dogs. Not to mention, somehow, it seems that kids = dogs. I've never met a kid who didn't want one at some point. lol. Interesting thought.
4. Tami said the following at 11:14 AM on Sep 30
Sometimes I think the Internet exists solely to give people the opportunity to opine on matters upon which they are and/or are not qualified to opine.
Uh... what was that I just said? :P
I think the list is cute from the perspective of a father giving advice for his daughter, or a man being "cute" and folksy for the purposes of the readers' enjoyment. Beyond that, I do not *personally* get a whole lot out of it. There's wisdom in the list, but I'm not pinning it to my wall for constant reference or anything.
5. Tami said the following at 11:32 AM on Sep 30
There's also that stereotype that "cat people" are aloof loners, while "dog people" are friendly and personable. That might have something to do with why some people (not me, mind you) think dog person equals kid person.
6. Ronnica said the following at 11:39 AM on Sep 30
Congrats on the upcoming adoption!
I could care less if the guy I marry loves dog. I'd almost prefer he didn't, because I don't want one. I DO however want kids, so he'd have to like kids.
7. Andrew Randazzo said the following at 11:48 AM on Sep 30
I'd also like to add that it may be true that if a guy doesn't like dogs, he won't like kids; but the same doesn't apply if a guy doesn't like cats. Cats are a whole different ball game.
8. mary kate said the following at 11:58 AM on Sep 30
some of these are RIDICULOUS. some are SOLID.
like #1. anyone who knows me will tell you that i am social, outgoing, encouraging, and that i LOVE kids, and that i LOVE cats. but i really could do without dogs. adn don't even tell me that kids are like dogs. not buying it, sorry.
also, my brother loves cats and kids. not dogs.
#16 is AWESOME and SOLID and RIGHT ON.
same with #20.
9. Rachael said the following at 12:03 PM on Sep 30
What's really cool is that despite our 'unlovable' or seemingly 'unmarryable' parts, there can still be someone who will love us for who we are, sure maybe not loving our yuckies, but loving us in spite of them. There's something beautiful about that. And I like thinking about marriage in some ways imitiating the relationship between God and His children. God loves us even with our yuckies, enough to sacrifice His Son to pay their price.
10. DannieA said the following at 12:04 PM on Sep 30
stereotypes may be overgeneralizing, but they are generally true.
A man who I was dating...did not like dogs, then told me he didn't want to continue a relationship with me because he hated kids...hated dogs, and hated the fact that I liked both...instead of his cat.
11. Gina said the following at 12:10 PM on Sep 30
Motte, it's not ridiculous at all. Dogs are VERY important! :-)
12. Joshua said the following at 12:22 PM on Sep 30
I hate dogs and love kids (have 2)!
13. helengirlie said the following at 12:27 PM on Sep 30
#21: Never marry anyone who bases the most important decision in his / her life on an arbitrarily made up list.
14. Khalil said the following at 12:34 PM on Sep 30
Rachael, #9...
This link: http://xkcd.com/108/
more or less sums it up :)
15. Dan |real-(+name)| said the following at 1:29 PM on Sep 30
#23: Never marry anyone who sins or has ever sinned or has any flaws.
#24: Never marry a Power Chick.
#25: Never marry someone who believes in the Gift of Singleness.
#27: Never marry ANYONE who is over the age of 28 or 30.
#28: Never marry a man who won't submit to a woman's berating, ridicule, contempt, and scorn.
#29: Never marry a man who expects a woman to be Elisabeth Elliot, Pamela Anderson, Suzy Orman, Sarah Palin, Rachel Ray, and Martha Stewart all rolled into one.
#30: Never marry anyone who takes their relationship advice more from the often unbiblical opionions of others on blogs than on the Bible.
#31: Never marry a man unless he is involved in at least 5 ministries, is a Pastor and/or on a committe at Church, has been on at least 27 missionary trips before the age of 18, can quote the entire bible in the KJV, ESV, and RSV, and has never EVER looked at a woman with lust in his heart.
Calm down flamers, I get the point of the list. Some of them do have a very solid biblical basis, but some are just silly (i.e., garbage).
16. IMO said the following at 1:54 PM on Sep 30
Dan |real-(+name)|,
Suzy Orman is a lesbian. You can count her out.
Unless of course you are referring to her financial knowledge.
17. Jacob said the following at 2:01 PM on Sep 30
#29: Never marry a man who expects a woman to be Elisabeth Elliot, Pamela Anderson, Suzy Orman, Sarah Palin, Rachel Ray, and Martha Stewart all rolled into one.
How about...
"Never marry a woman who expects a man to be Billy Graham, Mr. Darcy, John Piper, Mr. Darcy, Carey Grant, and Mr. Darcy all rolled into one."
18. Sarah P. said the following at 2:18 PM on Sep 30
Personally, I always liked Mr. Bingley better than Mr. Darcy. I like happy people.
19. Dan (real/name) said the following at 2:30 PM on Sep 30
#17 Jacob:
Just playing fair to both sexes, and thanks for the suggestion. Who is Mr. Darcy, by the way? Here is my take:
#22: Never marry a woman who expects a man to be Braveheart, James Dobson, Bob Vila, Matthew McConaughey, John Piper, and Conan the Barbarian all rolled into one"
Yes to Suze Orman's financial knowledge.
20. BDB said the following at 3:54 PM on Sep 30
So...dogs are like kids because...why? They can't keep themselves clean like cats? They dig up the yard? They aren't smart enough to use a litter box?
Now, if a guy had his cat declawed, that might be a red flag...of course, a guy with a fluffy poodle should be a red flag, too...as are any of those "oodle" designer dogs. That's just wrong.
You'll be fine with any guy who responds to the question, "What kind of cat do you have?" by saying, "A gray one. With claws. She hunts."
21. cn said the following at 4:15 PM on Sep 30
whoaaaaaa! Four from Ethiopia! Cool!
22. Christine said the following at 4:16 PM on Sep 30
I think that there is something to be said for making a list for personal use, so long as the list is focused on character traits of value (godliness, life's calling, etc.) and not preferences (physical appearance, favorite sports teams, etc.). I'm sure that there will be those who disagree with me, but I would have saved myself heartache a couple of times now if I had had a standard and stuck to it.
Now, I'm looking at marriage slightly differently. I want a man who strives after the things of God, agrees with me on certain aspects of theology (some things you can disagree on, others you can't), wants kids and has a passion for ministry. If a man has those things, then he's the type of man I want to marry. If not, I don't care how good looking he is or how much we have in common, he is not a potential husband for me.
23. Patrick said the following at 6:26 PM on Sep 30
Never marry a man with a tan but no plan. You'll think he'll fly you off to Cannes, or be devoted to missions in the Sudan, but he's really just a Peter Pan. Worse, what if he turns out to be less a sturdy man like the Cheyenne or samurai from Japan? And more like Borat from Kazahkstan? You may even end up eating out of a trash can, or at least living off of raisin bran. And God forbid you end up in the back of a police van! In other words, beware of a man without a plan who wants to date more than one female fan. Your life will be like jumping from the fire into the frying pan. Flee from such a man! Trust me, you'll be glad you ran.
On the other hand, I may be a little bit biased, but I recommend you marry Patrick Chan.
Okay, on a more serious note (if only slightly), though, try not to marry a grown-up man who still writes in rhymes as if he were in grade school. At best, he isn't cool. At worst, he's such a fool.
24. Nicole said the following at 6:40 PM on Sep 30
I would wager that every woman alive either currently knows and loves or will know and love at some point in life who Mr. Darcy is and what he represents.
25. farmer Tom said the following at 7:27 PM on Sep 30
I normally don't give out personal information about myself, but since someone has already gone to the effort of describing me in great detail, it would be impolite for me to fail to acknowledge the kind words about me. Thank you, to whoever described me so accurately, although I must say, I'm a better theologian than Dr. D, and have more hair on my head than Matthew,
a man who is Braveheart, James Dobson, Bob Vila, Matthew McConaughey, John Piper, and Conan the Barbarian all rolled into one.
get a life people, it's a joke.
26. mary kate said the following at 7:31 PM on Sep 30
my very very general list for my future husband:
1. is taller than me (this is difficult as i'm 6'1")
2. loves jesus (and molds his life because of it)
3. doesn't mind standing out in a crowd
4. is taller than me (this is difficult as i'm 6'1")
5. is kind
6. is taller than me (this is difficult as i'm 6'1")
that's pretty much it. i mean, there are some other things, but that covers the important stuff. :P
27. Rachael said the following at 7:59 PM on Sep 30
Congratulations on adopting 4 children in December (Lord-willing)!!! How exciting.
28. Sara said the following at 8:10 PM on Sep 30
Rachel Ray + Suze Orman + Pam Anderson? Man, that would be one intense woman! Another funny one like that I heard awhile ago was about guys who would settle for nothing less than a mix of Barbie and Mother Theresa! :)
Mr. Darcy? Meh. I'm trying to think of another 'literary crush', though, but I can't, except for Mac from 'Rose in Bloom', but that was when I was like 14. I think I tend to 'fall in love' with the authors themselves, or at least with my perception of them... I'm thinking William Carlos Williams, Robert Coles, Leonard Cohen, Ramond Carver, Dostoievski, Rasputin (weird, weird, I know, and not an author at all, but the Russian thing reminded me of it. And, hey, Putin while I'm at it. Also Vicente Fox.), George Orwell (mustachioed skeleton head and all)...hope that's entertaining!
29. DannieA said the following at 9:12 PM on Sep 30
BDB:
No cuz cats are just evil....and if a guy is sweet AND has a cute dog...well he's sold to me then LOL ;) A guy with a cat...hmmm don't know already had an experience with one....
30. Tara said the following at 9:59 PM on Sep 30
RE: Comment #18
Count me in as another Mr. Bingley fan! Mr Darcy is great but I'm basically a female version of him so the more spirited, optimistic Bingley appeals to me. ;)
And my fiance likes cats. Not dogs. (quoting The Italian Job "[He] had a bad experience") I guess I'm in for some trouble according to this list. LOL
31. Dan *realname* said the following at 10:15 PM on Sep 30
Thank you Rachael (post #9) for the most biblical post here. You really hit on what is most important.
32. Nelson said the following at 11:50 PM on Sep 30
I liked Mr. Wickham because he really had Lizzy fooled there :P
Nothing like outsmarting a woman :)
33. Becca said the following at 11:58 PM on Sep 30
7.Don't marry a woman who exercises so frequently that you cannot tell if she is a woman or a very strange looking 13-year-old boy.
I ran track in college and have been accused of looking like a 13-year-old boy. There is nothing wrong with a girl with muscles, and it is not necessarily a sign that she won't want kids later in life. There is a time and a season for everything.
34. Colette said the following at 12:34 AM on Oct 1
Fun article! Some of the points were really good, and others were just plain funny. :)
35. alex said the following at 1:21 AM on Oct 1
Rule #37:
Never marry a man who does NOT know who Mr. Darcy is and why women want to marry him.
36. Katie said the following at 1:28 AM on Oct 1
Christine I agree totally with what you said. I have believed for quite some time now that I would be okay with someone that I wasn't overwhelmingly physically attracted to (now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a good looking guy). It's more important to me that I find the right guy who has all of the qualities and ministry goals that I want in a husband. Looks fade, character is what remains. Love needs to be built on character not on mutual attraction - the attraction is secondary in my opinion.
37. Paula said the following at 5:50 AM on Oct 1
You have my respect for adopting kids, Motte. God bless you all.
38. Lisa said the following at 7:13 AM on Oct 1
Wow, there are a lot of people on here without a sense of humor. Lighten up, folks, it's just a list.
39. Motte said the following at 9:02 AM on Oct 1
Thanks everyone for the congratulations on our adoption. It's going to be quite an adventure!
40. Tami said the following at 9:15 AM on Oct 1
Motte, let me add my congratulations. :)
alex (35) -- hopefully he'll at least want to learn who Mr. Darcy is. ;)
I actually have heard a few men say that they were initially dragged into watching BBC's "Pride and Prejudice" and ended up really liking it. Ladies, YMMV (Your Man May Vary)
41. Jen from CO said the following at 9:24 AM on Oct 1
Patrick (#23) - that was... brilliant. Made me laugh. (Ooo - guys take note, esp. for rule #13). Then again, my weakness is wordplay. My fatal flaw is puns -- yes, I do believe I shall die due to a poorly placed pun.
As for the list -- #20 was, by far, my favourite. Really, in my mind, one could toss out all the other rules and just keep that one. I do have problems with #4, however (the so-called "no-brainer"). I've often told people that I will fall for the first man who whispers those three sweet little words: Separate bathrooms, beloved.
42. Dan real/man said the following at 9:43 AM on Oct 1
Alex #35:
Who is Mr Darcy?
43. Dan real^name said the following at 9:47 AM on Oct 1
Rule #37:
Never marry a man who attempts to make other men look bad so he will look better to women.
Rule #38:
Never say you'll marry anyone who doesn't match up to every little silly requirement on a silly list.
44. Leeandra said the following at 10:57 AM on Oct 1
I realize this is just a list that should be taken with not just a grain, but a 40 lb. block, of salt, but I don't think that #4 is necessarily true or a no-brainer. I realize that the bit about separate ZIP codes is facetious, but there IS such a thing as personal space and money, even in a marriage.
It makes no sense to be one flesh and two wallets, but seriously, I dated a guy who questioned every single purchase I made--with the money I'd earned myself. I'm no spendthrift and I give to charity and support third-world microloans, but I do buy things like, you know, clothes and books and DVDs and the occasional meal out with friends. But every time I bought something (even just did something like discussing paying $15/month for curbside recycling, which hasn't been a regular part of garbage pickup in New Orleans since pre-Katrina), it was always "That's stupid. Why do you spend your money on that? Why don't you give it to starving children in Africa?" (No, it wasn't like he was giving HIS money to starving children in Africa.)
He would also use my toiletries without a second thought, even after I asked him not to. Asking him to please not use my comb, please buy his own comb, they're seriously like 10 cents...got me nowhere. I'd say it's just a personal pet peeve of mine, I don't like sharing my toiletries with anyone, that's not that weird and even if it was it's not that big a deal to humor me here...got me nowhere.
He'd argue that it wasn't like he had lice, that I should be OK with sharing my comb with him if we were going to be together, and that he wasn't going to spend money on a comb when there were starving children in Africa.
And you can guess what happened when we were visiting England together and he wanted to see one site that I had absolutely no interest in and vice versa. When I suggested that we split up for the day and each see what we were interested in and then just meet up that evening at suppertime, you'd think I was suggesting we practice polyamory or something.
This level of "we have to be ONE" made me question not just whether I should marry him, but whether this guy should marry ANYONE at this point in life.
So yeah, there should also be a rule there about "one flesh and one wallet" not being LITERAL.
45. Jade said the following at 11:41 AM on Oct 1
Motte, congratulations on the upcoming adoptions. I hope you will tell us the whole story at some point in the future.
46. Ellie said the following at 1:19 PM on Oct 1
On a more serious note, from Dennis Prager:
http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/12/06/if_youre_thinking_of_marrying_part_i
http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/12/13/if_youre_thinking_of_marryingpart_ii
47. BDB said the following at 2:16 PM on Oct 1
Sara (#28) wrote:
>>Rachel Ray + Suze Orman + Pam Anderson?<<
So...she cooks, is a lesbian, and has hepatitis?
I'm confused...
48. BDB said the following at 2:34 PM on Oct 1
DannieA (#29) wrote:
>>No cuz cats are just evil....and if a guy is sweet AND has a cute dog...well he's sold to me then LOL ;)<<
We'll see who's laughing after my cat chases his Beverly Hills Chihuahua up a tree...
"Hey - why is that little dog running away so fast making that yelping noise?"
49. Liz said the following at 2:55 PM on Oct 1
I know this is supposed to be funny...but I don't find #7 to be particularly amusing. Being pregnant and "getting fat" are not the same thing. Even joking that a woman who exercises a lot, which makes her look like a 13-year-old boy, (because they always go together...) will therefore not want to have children for fear of "getting fat" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There is something unseemly about rolling up bunch of negative language about women and calling it "funny."
50. DannieA said the following at 4:30 PM on Oct 1
BDB:
Don't be a chihuahua hater....my Daisy-Elizabeth (yes my dog has a hyphenated name!)
is smart and will CHASE YOUR cat up a tree....actually your cat will probably tear her up...my dog is small but mighty and has no fear where she should have just a little!
and off topic...anyone else going to see Beverly Hills Chihuahua? my friend and I wanted to sneak in our dogs to the movie, but considering my dog attacks any animal she sees on the tv screen, I don't think it's a good idea LOL
51. Leah said the following at 5:43 PM on Oct 1
Liz, not sure what you're calling a "bunch of negative language about women". The only "negative language" I saw in there was about "getting fat".
DannieA- just because the guy you were dating didn't like kids and dogs, doesn't mean that it's a true generalisation. I think I've come across more people who like one but not the other than who don't like both.
52. Katie said the following at 12:01 AM on Oct 2
hahahaha, Alex (#35), very wise words...
53. Loris said the following at 9:33 AM on Oct 2
@ Sara #28, I've had a horrible crush on Stephen Lawhead's Taliesin for years. :)
54. DannieA said the following at 9:40 AM on Oct 2
Leah,
like my mom has always said...you can tell a person's true colors by the way he/she treats animals (Dog AND cats) and by the way they treat people in certain jobs (e.g. secretary, janitor, interns).
The guy I dated may have loved his cats, but he did not treat dogs with respect...so much so, my dog hated him and because of that, my mother had to restrain herself from harming the guy, because their dog was scared of him. And their dog is a bigger dog.
so it does make a difference...in a sense and a true generalization.
55. kb said the following at 10:19 AM on Oct 2
Dan (#19, 42)--
I couldn't help but notice that you asked the same question twice and still got no response! So I'll help you out.
Mr. Darcy is the male hero of Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice" and is held up by women everywhere as a model of gentlemanliness.
(If "gentlemanliness" isn't a word, it should be).
56. BDB said the following at 11:42 AM on Oct 2
DannieA (#50) wrote:
>>my dog is small but mighty and has no fear where she should have just a little!<<
I'm convinced that's why God gave dogs this soft, wet, vulnerable noses - at least vulnerable to a little thing like claws...
It's Lion of the tribe of Judah, not Poodle...
My cat does like Animal Planet particularly when they're doing some kind of rodent marathon...
You know, like the line in Transformers when he sees the Chihuahua - "You have a rodent infestation..."
Though I guess you should watch out for those who find they prefer the company of animals to people...
57. Khalil said the following at 12:17 PM on Oct 2
I'm a bird person...give me a parrot or cockatoo over a dog or cat any day :)
58. Ms. Agnes said the following at 6:08 PM on Oct 2
Lisa, #38 Hey, there are alot of people here with a sense of humor!
But, HONESTLY people. We're done here, k?
Conclusion:
Lists hardly work.
Real people have to be evaluated on a person-by-person basis.
It's easy to make this sort of thing hard.
And... be sure not to leave God out of the process.
:D
59. Leah said the following at 7:17 PM on Oct 2
DannieA- oh yes, I'd agree you can tell a person's true colours by how they treat animals. I was not equating liking/disliking with how they treated the animal.
If someone doesn't like dogs but still treats them humanely, I don't think you've learnt anything much more about their desire for kids :P Just like someone might love dogs but still not be keen on kids! :)
And RE: chihuahuas... I can't stand those things. I have an animal-mad friend who says anything smaller than a cat doesn't deserve to be called a dog. Chihuahua puppies are adorable, but the thing is, they don't get much bigger! The only small dogs I like are Malteses.
60. Dan ReAlNaMe said the following at 7:38 PM on Oct 2
kb #55:
Thanks for your response. Of course, I could have Google'd/wiki'd it, but I appreciate you taking the time to communicate with me and answering my question!
61. farmer Tom said the following at 7:52 PM on Oct 2
Mr. Darcy is the male hero of Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice" and is held up by women everywhere as a model of gentlemanliness.
Ok, and for the uninformed, a couple of follow up questions.
Who is Jane Austen?
Who was she married to?
What was his name?
How long were they married?
What can we learn about married life from Jane Austen???
Is it possible that Jane Austen had a warped, idealized, romanticized view of men and married life, and is therefore a pathetic, worthless guide for women to use in their romantic endeavors??
Why would any one use as a role model, an advisor, or even an example a women who never married, never had children and died at an early age???
Some of you wouldn't want to let reality get in the way of your romanticized view of men and married life.
Any time I hear a women start to expound upon the greatness of Jane Austen, I assume she is not married, and most likely never will be.
How's that for a conversation starter??
62. Mike Theemling said the following at 11:27 AM on Oct 3
I would also add, "Don't marry someone who divorced his/her last spouse over non-Biblical grounds and hasn't felt remorse over the decision (i.e. admitting it was wrong)".
Because if someone is willing to leave someone else for you because you were better, what makes you think he/she won't leave you when someone else superior to you comes along (which will almost be a certainty).
63. Dan real#name said the following at 11:58 AM on Oct 3
By the way alex (#35) and Katie (#52) you can't fault me for an honest question.
I am just glad the woman I am dating (who is a Jane Austen fan) isn't so shallow as to not date me because I don't know who "Mr. Darcy" is.
64. Dan .real.name. said the following at 3:02 PM on Oct 3
Yahoo to Farmer Tom (post #60)!
I would rather learn how to be a gentleman by actually being with and around people (including my dates with ____) than from some fictional character.
Being a gentleman means, among other things, being forthright during disagreement without being condescending and mean-spirited. So to follow that up, I do regret and apologize for my post #43, Rule #37. I won't, however, apologize for my post #62.
65. Tami said the following at 3:06 PM on Oct 3
Farmer Tom -- may I suggest that the point is, that many women are looking for a Mr. Darcy type: respectful, honest, chivalrous, ethical (to a fault). And, of course, in love with them... and willing to commit.
Perhaps some overfantasize regarding this (anything overidealized can be carried too far), but it seems that Mr. Darcy also possesses some of the characters you yourself extol women to look for in men.
66. BDB said the following at 4:24 PM on Oct 3
Now, now...the most important part of Pride and Prejudice is that Elizabeth was forced to admit that she had completely mis-judged Darcy. She overlooked him and went for the "fun" Wickham instead. It's a classic tale of women going for the "bad boy" and realizing later that she was very, very wrong...
Alas, women haven't changed...
67. BDB said the following at 4:32 PM on Oct 3
Khalil (#57) wrote:
>>I'm a bird person...give me a parrot or cockatoo over a dog or cat any day :)<<
My cat likes birds, too...especially with BBQ sauce...
68. DannieA said the following at 5:40 PM on Oct 3
Leah,
You know, I grew up with Boxers and Akitas...and then we had a Boston Terrier and I never cared for Chihuahuas...then I got this one because I was living in an apt. at the time and I swear, I know people can't get past the nervous jittery barker persona they have, but goodness gracious...aside from the fact that she thinks she is bigger than anything out there, she has been one of the smarter canines I have seen (aside from our first Boxer who was the best dog ever), and I have totally changed my mind about chihuahuas...now I know why some people are goo goo ga ga over them.
My parents have a miniature schnauzer and he's fun as well.
69. kaarina said the following at 5:57 PM on Oct 3
Mr. Darcy? BAH, give me John Thornton from North and South. His most admirable quality is how he strives to better himself and overcome his flaws :) And, as Farmer Tom points out, Elizabeth Gaskell was married. I always thought Mr. Darcy was almost as annoying as Gilbert Blythe!
Though in all honesty I think I want a Robin Hood; principled against injustice, works well with others, committed to see things through to the end even when it's hard, willing to take risks to do the right thing, not afraid (or even embarrassed) to admit others are better than him in their field of expertise... and infused with a wild passion for living. Oh, and the best archer in England. ;) It's not that much to ask...
70. khalil said the following at 7:24 PM on Oct 3
parrots are supposedly a bit tough and stringy ;)
before I gave my quaker up (in preparations for overseas work) she had a couple brief encounters with a neighbor's cat...the cat walked away with what I would call a reasonable amount of respect for birds; the quaker never backed down from a fight and still lives to bathe in that glory
:)
71. Caroline said the following at 4:52 PM on Oct 4
*raises battle axe, considers field positions*
Seriously, Farmer Tom? That's a firecracker of a conversation starter -- insulting the genius of a much-beloved author. While Jane may never have married in her life, she had keen insights into how men and women relate, especially in their times of difficulty and stress in dealing with their opposites. I don't need to just read works by married women who lived to be ninety to get an idea of what sort of man I want to marry.
And my personal favourite Jane hero is Henry Tilney, by the way. Give me the funny, charming, excellent dancer, clever Mr. Tilney any day over anyone else in her books!
72. Katie B said the following at 6:46 PM on Oct 4
Leeandra: goodness, that must have been a nightmare.
My parents have the most beautiful marriage of anyone I have ever seen, (and I assure you that is more than my own bias) they have separate checking accounts. They also use their separate resources on each other. I asked my mom once about it, she sees it that they love eachother so much that they want to give what they have to each other, not merely 'give it up' for each other.
Farmer Tom: I agree with you totally about Jane austin being warped. Have you noticed all her stories end with the wedding?
73. DannieA said the following at 12:19 AM on Oct 5
hey Leah, BDB, and all dog people...seriously "beverly hills chihuahua" is so funny, I was laughing so much I cried...it's just so stereotypical it's great! Yeah I loved a "talking dog movie" and I'm 30!
74. Leah said the following at 5:51 PM on Oct 5
BDB- Not sure I'd equate Wickham with today's "bad boys". I think, for the most part, Wickham's intentions were significantly better than most bad boys today, and that he probably wasn't quite as obviously "bad" as most bad boys these days!
Could I also point out to the Darcy lovers: he was also a pompous prat. He got over himself eventually, but he really wasn't the most inviting person around at first.
farmer Tom and kb - can I suggest that no woman SERIOUSLY measures the men in her life against Mr Darcy. Honestly, he's a fictional character. We're not that shallow or stupid.
75. farmer Tom said the following at 11:59 AM on Oct 6
farmer Tom and kb - can I suggest that no woman SERIOUSLY measures the men in her life against Mr Darcy. Honestly, he's a fictional character. We're not that shallow or stupid.
Generalizations are a dangerous thing. The proper sentence structure of your last sentence should probably include the word, all, as in
We're not all that shallow or stupid.
76. mary kate said the following at 12:32 PM on Oct 6
from leah, #74, Could I also point out to the Darcy lovers: he was also a pompous prat. He got over himself eventually, but he really wasn't the most inviting person around at first.
reminds me a bit of a certain poster hailing from one of the more rural parts of our great united states... wink, wink, scroll up a few, nudge, nudge. :)
also, to loris #53, ME TOO. i've read Taliesin probably 3 or 4 times... love that character.
i'm also a darcy fan. but i think a lot of it is based on the actor who played him in the keira knightly version of P&P... so handsome! and tall, too :)
77. Ellie said the following at 12:55 PM on Oct 6
Leah @ 74:
You are kidding about Wickham, right? He lived a life of gambling and whoring (according to Mr. Darcy's veiled descriptions), lived above his means by taking out credit with merchants and then never paying them back. He flirted with Lizzie even though he had no intention of marrying her, all the while telling lies about Darcy. He used the fact that he had been raised as though he was Mr. Darcy's brother to trick the 15 year old Georgiana Darcy into running off with him in order to get revenge on her brother for cutting off the living he had been promised (as a vicar on Mr. Darcy's estate!) and in order to get all of her money. Presumably he had squandered the money Mr. Darcy had given him to become a lawyer. It is not hard to imagine that he engaged in all manner of untoward behavior during the period between attempting to elope with Georgiana and showing up in Merrytown. Once there, he began flirting with Mary King, in an attempt to secure her money, almost running off with her. His worst crime, of course, is Lydia, with whom he pretends to elope, has sex with (Lydia's dialogue makes it quite clear that she has lost her virginity to him) in London, and then is forced to marry. In marrying her he secures a promise of money every year from her family, as well as induces Mr. Darcy to pay off all of his debts. By doing this with Ldyia, he has substantially damaged the ability of the other Bennett sisters to marry, something he knew he was doing the moment he left with Lydia.
I'd say Mr. Wickham is far worse than the average 'bad boy' of today.
78. BDB said the following at 2:20 PM on Oct 6
DannieA (#68) wrote:
>>I know people can't get past the nervous jittery barker persona they have,<<
I think one of the best Far Side cartoons I ever saw had little dog on a chair on it's hind legs working an espresso machine and the caption:
"How nervous little dogs start their day."
79. BDB said the following at 2:26 PM on Oct 6
Leah (#74) wrote:
>>Could I also point out to the Darcy lovers: he was also a pompous prat.<<
Jack, sprat, could eat no prat.
Wait...What is prat?
80. BDB said the following at 3:02 PM on Oct 6
Ok, back to Mr. Darcy for a minute.
Those who've read Elisabeth Elliot know that she's not too keen on "dating," a modern American invention. She suggests the "frank confession of love" as a more Biblical alternative. Mr. Darcy's first propsal to Lizzy in Pride and Prejudice is the best literary example I know of.
Of course, it blew up in his face.
Threw her for a loop, too.
I think Keira Knightly portrayed the resulting confusion quite well...
Imagine that:
Taking Initiative = Massive Confusion
81. The G said the following at 5:00 PM on Oct 6
Question!
How do guys see #15 -does that apply to girls? Not so much having having close guy friends, but having more male acquaintances than girls? Being the middle between two boys, I've always been more comfortable around guys than girls ... Does anyone see a reason how this might be a disadvantage?
82. Bertha said the following at 6:03 PM on Oct 6
Regarding #61: Last time I checked, Jane Austen's books were in the fiction section, not the relationship section. If any woman who appreciates Jane Austen had no hope of being married...there probably wouldn't be too many marriages of well-read people in the western world.
83. Leah said the following at 6:58 PM on Oct 6
BDB- sorry, prat's more of a british term (which I imagine us Aussies are more exposed to than you Americans!) It's just a lower-level insult like 'idiot' or 'jerk'. Actually, I think jerk is a pretty good equivalent.
Ellie- granted, I did read the book a few years ago. One thing mildly confuses me: how did what Wickham and Lydia do affect the marriageability of Lydia's sisters?
I would also point out that much of what Wickham did with Lydia was completely with her consent, from my memory.
Oh, sure, what he did in regards to Darcy was malicious and there's no redeeming that. My comment was in regards to his interactions with women.
Mr Wickham is worse than your average guy today. But not your average bad boy. Not in my experience.
farmer Tom- but generalisations are usually recognised for just that: generalisations. I also don't know a single woman shallow enough to say "oh, he doesn't measure up to Mr Darcy, I'm not dating him".
84. farmer Tom said the following at 8:26 PM on Oct 6
76. mary kate,
so handsome! and tall, too :)
Yes I am, and thank you for noticing!
wink, wink, scroll up a few, nudge, nudge. :)
85. DannieA said the following at 10:43 PM on Oct 6
BDB....LOL wish I had that far side cartoon to cut out and paste on my wall. That is Hilarious!
86. mary kate said the following at 8:59 AM on Oct 7
good ol' farmer tom :)
87. Jo said the following at 1:26 PM on Oct 7
Haha Leah, your use of 'prat' was the first time I've heard (/seen) the word in a few years! Maybe English phrases get to Australia with a short delay.
Kinda like the fact that Neighbours over here used to be about 3 months behind you guys. I remember feeling hugely important after coming back from Aus when I was 11 and being able to report that a major character was soon going to die.
Oh and Darcy - VERY romantic, but not much fun. My future husband is going to have to be fun.
88. yet another jen said the following at 2:06 PM on Oct 7
But Lydia's disastrous "eloping" affecting her sister's chances is exactly what Jane Austen was writing about! She was not writing romance novels but social commentary on the world around her.
Lydia's eventual marriage to a poor man with a terrible reputation seriously hurt her sisters' chances of marrying a man of means. Again this gives Darcy another major hurdle to overcome in pursuit of Elizabeth. The reader can see how much he has changed and grown in that he is willing to become a brother-in-law to the man who has hurt him and his family so terribly!
He truly BECOMES a wonderful guy...sigh.. :) something we hope for for all the men in our lives
89. BDB said the following at 2:11 PM on Oct 7
DannieA (#85)
Found a copy of it for you.
90. Ellie said the following at 2:18 PM on Oct 7
BDB,
I believe that it is "Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean; So 'twixt them both they cleared the cloth, and licked the platter clean." Or at least that's what it says in my Volland. Actually, the second verse that I learned orally as a child was "And so, between them both, you see, they licked the platter clean."
Leah,
You must examine a literary work within the historical matrix it was written in. This is especially true in books such as Jane Austen's, because the plot points and characterization often rests on the particular mores and manners of the time.
In the case of Wickham's behavior with Lydia, it effects all of Lydia's sisters because the reputation of their family (not themselves) will be of overriding importance in their social relationships. The behavior of Lydia when she is just a shameful flirt has already (before she runs off) adversely affected Jane and Elizabeth's own prospects. Darcy and Caroline Bingley see her (and the rest of the Bennett family, especially the mother) as somewhat corrupt. They convince Mr. Bingley to leave for London partially based the bad behavior of Jane's family members (Col. Fitzwilliam relates this to Lizzie). Mr. Darcy also cites the inferiority of Lizzie's family as one of the main obstacles to his approaching her sooner during his first proposal.
After Wickham absconds with Lydia, the perilous reputation of the Bennett family is potentially completely ruined. First, Lydia tells Kitty that they are going to Gretna Green (which is the first town over the Scottish border where she will not need parental consent or to post the banns in order to marry); this elopement is not socially acceptable, although if she does come back with a marriage license and a ring she will probably only be marginally censored. However, Wickham had no intention of going on to Gretna. Instead he takes Lydia to London where they hide out for many days, during which time Lydia's reputation is completely ruined because it can be reasonably presumed they've had sex. Even if they did not actually have sex, Lydia has broken all standards of propriety by living in a hotel room with a man she is not married to for over a week. And does anyone really think Wickham didn't touch her over that time? Luckily for Lydia, the final resolution is that Darcy finds her and pays the money that Wickham demands in order to induce Wickham to marry Lydia. Lydia's reputation is thereby moderately saved; I say she is lucky because it's possible Mr. Bennett wouldn't have been able to afford to, as he says, bribe worthless young men into marrying his daughters.
However, the rest of the family is still under a certain amount of suspicion because one of their number has behaved so badly. You might be saying, but it was just Lydia who did this, why must everyone else suffer. The answer is that Lydia's four sisters were raised by her same parents. How are we to know they didn't come out the same? The fact that Lydia did eventually marry would probably make it so that at least Jane (who has beauty going for her) will be able to make another match. But Lizzie writes off a match between Jane and Bingley (the best offer Jane will ever get), under the assumption that Darcy, knowing the truth about Lydia, will advise his friend to steer clear of Jane (remember that at this point Lizzie doesn't know Darcy helped out with Lydia and Wickham). For herself, she says that Darcy must be congratulating himself on his near-miss as far as marrying Lizzie. You'll also remember the general reaction of everyone to the news that Lydia ran off, the snubs of the neighbors, the desperation of Lizzie upon receiving the letter from Jane, Mr. Collins showing up and offering his condolences (!). Also, when it becomes clear to her that Darcy is planning on proposing to Lizzie, Lady Catherine de Burg shows up at the Bennett's and asks Lizzie how somebody related to Lydia would dream of marrying Darcy, saying "Are the shades of Pemberley to be thus polluted?"
I also maintain that Wickham knew all of this when he set out with Lydia. He was purposefully using the fact that the Bennett's and their relations could not afford the black smirch of Lydia, and would be willing to pay up in order to convince him to marry her. It's why he did what he did.
As far as Lydia's consent, first, you do realize that she's 16 and he's upwards of 25, right? But consent, as well as required ages, are a modern concept. The nineteenth century would have recognized that she's a very foolish girl who agreed to do all of that, and therefore is deserving of censure, along with the parents/family who did nothing to prevent her immoral behavior in the first place.
I do think we have to question what criteria, exactly, you are using to define a bad boy. I think our cultural definition of a bad boy encompasses something like James Dean as Jim Stark, not a man who purposefully endangers five sisters in order to have sex with one and extort money from her family, after attempting the same with many other girls, living a decrepit life among gamblers and whores, and stealing from his friends.
Although, Wickham isn't Austen's worst villain. In Sense and Sensibility Mr. Willoughby fathers a child out of wedlock, abandons the pregnant mother, nearly ruins Marianne Dashwood's reputation, and then marries for money. Nice guy.
And in Mansfield Park Mr. Henry Crawford commits adultery with the woman he is courting's cousin Maria, just because he is bored and he can. Maria's husband divorces her, and Crawford refuses to marry her, leaving her forever a disgraced divorcee. Another nice guy.
91. BDB said the following at 2:19 PM on Oct 7
Leah (#83) wrote:
>>sorry, prat's more of a british term (which I imagine us Aussies are more exposed to than you Americans!)<<
So, it's not like Pratt & Whitney turbofan jet engines? OK...
92. alex said the following at 3:28 PM on Oct 7
Dan/real name and Farmer Tom;
I take it neither of you compare to Mr. Darcy.
93. DannieA said the following at 3:48 PM on Oct 7
BDB Hey THANKS!!!!!
94. farmer Tom said the following at 5:02 PM on Oct 7
92. alex said,
Dan/real name and Farmer Tom;
I take it neither of you compare to Mr. Darcy.
alex,
First, since I am unaware of this fictional Darcy figure's characteristics, it is impossible for me to know if I compare.
Second, since I live in the real world, I simply find it foolish to compare myself with a fictional character made up by an unmarried woman over a hundred years ago.
Thirdly, I have more valuable things to do with my time (like blogging here) than to investigate the fantasies and delusions of a long dead fiction writer.
So, in answer to your question. I take it neither of you compare to Mr. Darcy
I wouldn't have a clue, and I intend to keep it that way.
95. Jacob said the following at 6:01 PM on Oct 7
I think this link to an article Kritik Magazine ran last spring will explain why some of us aren't all that excited about Darcy.
http://www.kritikmagazine.com/culture/the-darcy-syndrome
By way of honest confession, I'm interviewed in it, but I think the author does a good job of underscoring the problem that excessive enthusiasm for Darcy can have. It's akin to magazine covers.
96. BDB said the following at 7:04 PM on Oct 7
Yet another Jen (#88) wrote:
>>The reader can see how much he has changed and grown in that he is willing to become a brother-in-law to the man who has hurt him and his family so terribly! <<
Wait - as I understand it, he was generous before that. That's why Lizzy's aunt and uncle took her to Pemberly, wasn't it? They had no knowledge of his interest in her. And as I recall, at that point she was pretty much trying to conceal it herself. Hence her embarassment being caught on his estate.
In fact, Darcy saw Wickham's actions as a result of his own inaction - the failure to expose what kind of person he was. Darcy was TOO kind to him at first. From what I remember, Darcy had the connections to find them in London, And somehow got Wickham re-assigned somewhere where he would stay out of trouble. One suspects that Darcy made Wickham an offer he couldn't refuse...
But Darcy didn't re-approch Lizzy until he heard how she told off his aunt. If that incident gave him "reason to hope," one presumes that his previous actions in righting the Wickham situation were done with him assuming her answer was still "no." He did it anyway, assuming he'd get nothing for it.
I'd say that they both changed over the story arc.
97. anon said the following at 9:15 AM on Oct 8
alex, that comment was uncalled for and rude.
98. Dan realname said the following at 1:53 PM on Oct 8
Thanks Farmer Tom (#94) and anon (#97) for being one of the few to defend me for not knowing who "mr darcy" is.
Actually Alex (post 92), I can say by your earlier post (#35) that was directed at me without your being upfront about it, and your lack of response to my question to you earlier (#42), that you are in NO way acting in a gentlemanly manner. Being a gentleman in one way means being upfront with people without being condescending and taking cheap shots at people, all the while hiding in anonymity behind a computer. It also means fessing up to your mistakes directly to the people you offend. In that sense, I do regret and apologize for my snide and mean-spirited post (#43).
Please, alex, if all you want to do is take shots at people, please do so on some political blogs like huffpo. Yes, there are times here when people do take a more sarcastic and satirical way of making their points, but to call into question someone's character and marriability because they are not aware of who "mr darcy" is (or for that matter, any fictional character), is very shallow and immature.
And others who are tiring of me posting about this, I will NOT stop protesting because it is a passion of mine to see fellow brothers and sisters in Christ treat each other in a way that doesn't resemble the world, and when we take mean-spirited and personal shots at people (especially ones that we don't know personally), then we are acting EXACTLY like the world.
99. Tami said the following at 2:16 PM on Oct 8
farmer Tom wrote:
"Thirdly, I have more valuable things to do with my time (like blogging here)..."
Hey, I resemble that remark! ;)
(Good line, fT... thanks for the laugh)
100. Tami said the following at 2:19 PM on Oct 8
P.S., this is actually a very well-thought-out discussion of Pride and Prejudice going on here. Very good points raised by all.