Two + One Are Better Than One
by Motte Brown on 09/03/2008 at 2:41 PM
Discipleship Journal (DJ) has an interview with speaker and author Michelle McKinney Hammond in their September/October issue. Two of the questions and answers caught my attention.
Here's the first:
DJ: Describe a challenge you've faced as a single.
Michelle: Being responsible for every aspect of my life can be overwhelming. This is where I really appreciate the prospect of having a partner. Though that presents its own challenges, I understand why Solomon said that two are better than one. I've had to learn to ask for help, delegate, and be realistic about what I can commit to.
Being over-committed is something I can relate to as a married father of two, but not as a single. It could be because the majority of my single years were spent as a non-Christian who lived only for myself. So I don't know what it's like for Christian singles who expend themselves fully for God's Kingdom to the point of feeling over-committed.
What about you? Can you relate to Michelle on this?
Here's the other Q&A that I found interesting:
DJ: How can married people encourage singles they know?
Michelle: Singles need to see married couples relating in ways that glorify God. Many married people are negative not only about their marriages, but also about marriage in general. This assaults singles' faith. Couples should be honest and keep it real about their struggles and the things they've learned, but they also need to share the rewards of the journey toward becoming one.
Good stuff. But the first step here is getting married couples and singles to interact. Which makes me wonder how many of you have relationships with married couples. Are the married couples in your church intentional about getting involved in your life? And have you been responsive to their invitations? If so, do they model marriage the way Michelle suggests?
1. Rachel L said the following at 3:05 PM on Sep 3:
Just for reference, I attend a good sized church with approximately 300 members. I've been a member there for about 2 and a half years.
I only associate with one married couple--I was friends with the wife when we were both single and began socializing with them as a couple during their dating period. I also have one female friend who is married, but she typically invites me over when her husband is working late or is able to watch their kids.
In my 2.5 years at this church I have been invited to a few "get togethers" in a group setting, but other than those few events (which I gratefully attended) I have not received any invitations. My female single friends have similar records. Interestingly, the few single males seem to receive more invitations than females do.
The last time I sought out a married woman, who was my age and new to our church, she told me that she doesn't like hanging out with singles and only had lunch with me because she couldn't think of a good excuse. Needless to say, I'm a little shy about seeking out married women now.
2. Marci said the following at 3:49 PM on Sep 3:
I can totally relate to Michelle's statement that "being responsible for every aspect of my life can be overwhelming." I am a full-time grad student who works 40 hours a week, serves on my church's worship team and women's ministry team, and works in the infant room during Sunday School. I also try to keep a clean house, practice biblic hospitality, and maintain a some semblence of a social life. When problems/needs arise in my own life (my car needs to go to the shop, I'm sick but still have to function, etc.) the buck stops with me. And yes, it's very overwhelming. I think it's easy for singles to become over-committed because 1.) there is no one around to remind you that you're already too busy to take on any other committments and 2.) because I think people who are married forget that just because you're single doesn't mean you have unlimited amounts of free time...so you're the first person they go to when a need arises. I realize that having a healthy marriage takes a lot of time and effort but sometimes I just wonder if my crazy life wouldn't be more bearable if I just had someone with whom to attack it!
As far as married friends, my small group at church is a great mixture of married with older kids, married with younger kids, married with no kids, and singles. My friendships with my married friends usually don't extend beyond the bounds of church activities, though. Even though there are genuine relationships there I feel like they have a hard time relating to me and I to them. There are definitely married couples who make the effort but the awkwardness is still there.
3. BDB said the following at 4:02 PM on Sep 3:
Small groups are very good ways for singles and couples to interact. A mixed group will have a much different dynamic than, say, a young adults group or older singles group.
I would agree that single people who spend a lot of time with married couples will develop a much healthier and more realistic view of what it takes to make marriage work. However, we live in a culture where many Christian young adults adopt the "life-is-for-my-entertainment" attitude of the secular world. It's more fun...but not good preparation for when "life" happens.
4. DEH said the following at 4:32 PM on Sep 3:
My old church made it kind of difficult for young married people to hang out with young singles. When one of my (single) male friends wanted to start a college/young adult group, the pastor told him it had to be for singles only. He kind of abandoned the effort, but another person has since started up such a group, and I always think it's odd and kind of counterproductive when I see the invitations they send out that say you can only come if you're single. (I'm not.) I understand the idea of the singles group, but I would think a mixed group would be a better tool for helping each other grow in Christ and learn from one another. Especially since that's the only ministry specifically for twenty-somethings in the church. There were only one or two other young (20-something) married couples in the church, and my husband and I always felt marginalized BECAUSE we were young and married and we didn't really fit with any of the established demographic groups on which the church focused.
5. Jude said the following at 4:42 PM on Sep 3:
Married couples seem to form a special sort of club in Christendom nowadays. Married are married and singles are typically ignored, and never the twain shall meet.
From my experience, I think it's best that single folks just try to "wing it" on their own and not even attempt connecting with married folks until, of course one becomes married.
If you're not confronted with those who naturally are "family-first" (ie breaking promises because something familial came up) then you're facing people who just tell you to "go find some new friends" or to "go socialize more" without much thought the underlying motivation.
We as singles are already supposed to abstain from most sorts of physical and emotional intimacy, so to me it's just not worth the stress competing with the bond of marriage so I can get some relational time with an old/new friend who has to become distant now anyway.
6. Shannon K said the following at 4:52 PM on Sep 3:
This made me laugh: "Which makes me wonder how many of you have relationships with married couples. Are the married couples in your church intentional about getting involved in your life?" I attend a small (~70 people/Sunday) church in the Seattle area, and I'm the only single person between the ages of 18 and 50+ who consistently attends (I'm a 24yo grad student). While I do appreciate the friendship of a couple of elderly widows and do try to reach out to the teen and preteen girls, the majority of my time at church is spent with married couples. These couples have been wonderful about reaching out to me, inviting me to dinner, etc., and I've especially gotten to know the ladies of my church through working in the nursery, attending ladies' luncheons and craft nights, etc. My involvement in this church gives me great opportunities to see how godly married couples interact and to learn about Christian parenting. I've never had problems communicating with married people, though, so I can't really understand what all the fuss is about relating to them.
On another note...I don't understand what Michelle means when she says that hearing negative comments on marriage from married people "assaults singles' faith." Of all the things that "assault" my faith in God, the fact that some married people disparage marriage doesn't rank very high on the list. Perhaps I'm missing her point?
7. Naomi said the following at 4:56 PM on Sep 3:
I agree with Michelle about it being a struggle to be responsible for every aspect of your life. But I think with me it stems even further than just over committing myself to things. Having to make every decision myself can be a bit overwhelming. Sometimes I'd just like someone to have some input in whether I sell my car or what is for dinner... small I know.
As for married couples being intentional, in my Church they are very much so, but being receptive to it is sometimes hard. Living away from family and then having to put myself into someone elses family situation sometimes seems to focus more on the fact that I'm a single girl and would prefer not to be! I love the thought of community and being involved in it, but sometimes its not so comfortable.
8. a sassy sister said the following at 5:42 PM on Sep 3:
to respond to motte's questions:
1)Many of my single friends have experienced the issue of overcommitment because they serve in more than one ministry. And if you serve in more than one ministry and consistenty reliable, people will depend on you.
2.) I have had very little experiences with married couples in the church(if I did interact with them, it was simply because we were both present at the same place and time). The married couples that I do know is due to the fact that I knew them when they were dating and not when they actually got married.
The experiences I've had with other married couples is of several extremes. It's either that I am the third,fifth wheel, or that I am the interloper out for their spouses, or that my marital status as a single makes me some sort of "special project" to be fixed. The idea that I am their sister in Christ who simply wants to know them and bond with them as the body of Christ hasn't been quite understood. Or maybe that's the problem. Maybe there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings for marrieds and singles in the church, and that's what's keeping this social divide open. Thoughts anyone?
9. Katie P. said the following at 5:45 PM on Sep 3:
I have several friends my age who are newly married, and who occasionally make an effort to hang out with us. However, I think especially during the first year of marriage, couples drop off the face of the planet a bit. :-)
Older married couples have been a great encouragement. My church is really good about creating home fellowships so that people of all ages and stations of life can interact with each other in more intimate settings. They even have some directly aimed at single college students so that mentor relationships can form. Some of the best marriage advice has come from these older married couples, and as a single woman praying every day to be married, I really appreciate the support and encouragement I receive. That's my experience. Good post.
I'm sorry you've had such a negative experience, Rachel L. I think that women especially need to learn to live out Titus 2 more often.
10. David said the following at 5:49 PM on Sep 3:
I must say I've been extremely blessed in this area. I have become close friends with several married couples whom I look up to and respect. They are definitely my mentors. Unfortunately, seeing their Christ-centered marriages has made me somewhat envious as I want to get married and have been unsuccessful in my search. Guess you can't have everything :-)
11. Leah said the following at 6:24 PM on Sep 3:
This is why I'm not a fan of bible groups being split into "singles" and "marrieds". Especially at our age when you can get them in the same age group. The people I mingle with are mixed marrieds and singles, although mainly singles because at my age, 20, the people I hang around with are mainly between the ages of 18 and 23 (uni age), so that's a bit below the age people generally get married. Having said that, in 2008 there's been a huge onslaught of marriages- I can count 5 weddings among my immediate friends. (Me included!)
Now obviously these couples are on the same par as me, so aren't really couples I can "look up to" in regards to experience, but they are good for learning with.
Rachel L- I was absolutely horrified to read how that married woman treated you. We're not all like that! My best friends are still mostly single, and when new single people come along it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Us marrieds are in the minority in my age group! I don't believe I've socialised with my single friends any less since I've been married. Once I have kids I imagine that will become a different story, but that's no-one's fault, just a fact of life.
12. Rachael said the following at 6:29 PM on Sep 3:
Shannon K (6) wrote: "I don't understand what Michelle means when she says that hearing negative comments on marriage from married people "assaults singles' faith"
-->Perhaps Michelle meant 'idea of marriage' rather than 'faith'... or maybe she meant 'faith in God' with regard to marriage.
In any case, Michelle aside, one thing about older married couples and marriage --> I wonder if sometimes they view it more as a practical step than the "Oh my goodness is this the right person?????" type of approach...
Really, getting married is one step on the journey of life. Yes, a major step, but it's not necessarily a step off the planet (though unfortunately in some marriages it may feel that way, but I think even in those marriages, hopefully the faith of the person(s) will be strengthened even in times of 'suffering'). We should make decisions carefully, but at the same time, we need to make the decisions...
13. DannieA said the following at 6:35 PM on Sep 3:
um hanging out with married people from church? not so much...they don't seem interested. I have many married friends that I do hang out with that are not in the church and they make me feel welcome and I learn a lot from them. It's kinda sad that this is the scenario I have. It would be nice if it were the other way around.
14. cait said the following at 7:30 PM on Sep 3:
I can totally relate. I live in a city by myself with no close family here. I work 40 hours a week, i do ministry 3 nights a week, plus all day sunday. I disciple 2 young girls and write bible studies for our youth. i also have to do everything for myself, pay bills, get my car serviced, pick up packages, balance the check book, cook dinner, clean my house, plus make all the life decisions myself (well and the help of godly pastors and friends)....
i wouldn't spend my time any other way because I love the ministry I do and I love my church family.
but I sometimes resent people thinking that single life is 'easy' and that because I don't have a husband that i must just have oodles of spare time and money on my hands. people use the reason to not be involved in things because they have family commitments or to spend time with their partner... but for some reason my reason of 'because I need some time out to vegetate and socialise' is perceived as selfish. this does not come from the leadership at my church they are very supportive, it comes from my friends who are married and expect that I can just pick up the slack because I have nothing better to do with my time.
15. S said the following at 7:45 PM on Sep 3:
For this fall's Bible Study, I intentionally signed up for one of the 'regular' women's Bible Studies instead of the 'singles' Bible study. It's the only way I've found to meet other women in the church. All the other family type activities I don't feel comfortable attending solo.
16. Leah said the following at 7:48 PM on Sep 3:
cait- perhaps you could communicate better with your married friends so they know how busy you are already? I know what my single friends' weeks are like and don't ask them to do things if I know that they have a huge assignment due, or are working extra hours, or have bible study on a given night.
Besides, even single people have family commitments. I don't see why you think the "family commitment" excuse is a cop-out.
17. KJ said the following at 8:11 PM on Sep 3:
Single? Overwhelmed? Yeah - and I didn't even really know it at the time. (My parents lived within an hour or two of me so they were a help in home repair stuff and car repair stuff - or I really would've been a mess!) I currently have a boyfriend and that has made my life a lot less stressful. Fixer-upper work needs to be done? He often spots it and takes care of it before I even really understand the extent of the need to do it. Ran out of an ingredient just before supper? He offers to run to the store to get more. Dog needs to go out and it's 14 degrees? He'll run outside with her so I can stay in where it's warm. And that's just the practical stuff. I had never dated anyone before, so I had never known what a help it could be. If I am ever alone again, I will miss this, and probably feel very overwhelmed.
And yes, I agree with whoever talked about singles getting ministries piled on them at church. People figure we don't have anything else to do (when in reality, a single woman probably has a lot more on her plate than a stay-at-home wife without little kids!) Plus young adults who are faithful in church attendance don't exactly grow on trees, at least not where I live.
As for interactions with couples, that was pretty much nil until I was dating someone. It's apparently "weird" to invite a single twentysomething over for dinner but if you invite a dating couple it's "mentoring" or whatever...actually what really irks me is the notion that dating=bad and marriage=holy which means, for example, that my boyfriend can't go to bat for me if there is a difficult situation at church, whereas if he were my husband he would be expected to take my side...does anybody else feel that way?
18. Adam said the following at 9:53 PM on Sep 3:
1: overcommitment
There have definitely been times over the years where I felt like I have been overcommitted. The typical culprit has been work instead of ministry though.
I have been very careful not to overcommit myself though. I don't want to set a bad pattern as a single guy that would continue if/when I get married.
2: married couples
I have to agree with 'a sassy sister' about the 3rd/5th wheel thing. It feels very awkward and out of place to spend time with a married couple or two.
I've gotten to know some married couples out of sheer default. There aren't many singles at all anymore - so its kinda get to know the marrieds or be a hermit.
Within the body of Christ I have some contact with married couples - just not ones from my church. I know, sounds kinda odd. I am involved in a small group where I am the only single person there.
I'm great friends with several of the married guys... it's just separated from their families. So we can have a great time going to a football game or whatever.
The thing is... I kinda feel guilty taking my friends away from their families to hang out. I've also found that one of the best times for me to hang out is something like 11PM on a Saturday night. So my schedule isn't always exactly "family friendly."
19. Leah said the following at 10:23 PM on Sep 3:
KJ said People figure we don't have anything else to do (when in reality, a single woman probably has a lot more on her plate than a stay-at-home wife without little kids!)
Yes and no. Stay-at-home wives without kids are very rare (if they still exist!) Stay-at-home mums- even when their kids are old- are still run off their feet. The kids don't need to be little. I think of my Mum; I'm 20 and married, my sister is 19, my brother is 16 and my youngest sister is 14 and they're all at home. My mum works (formally) one day a week (teacher) but does extra stuff to help outside of her official hours; she also coordinates RE (Religious Education) at the primary school I went to (and teaches a few lessons herself); she coordinates and teaches Sunday School; she's taxi for my siblings when they need to be taken to and picked up from school and music lessons and youthgroup; she attends the ladies' bible study; she makes the church's kids' activity sheets (to keep them occupied during the sermon). If it's a weekend Dad can help with taxi-ing kids, but usually it's a weekday and he's at work til 5:30. And then she does the groceries, cooks and washes for 5 people (6 when I was at home) and cleans the house (when she can!)
So, while I agree that a wife without kids probably has less on her plate than a single woman (working fulltime, living on her own), I wouldn't limit it to "little kids". Kids cause work right til they leave home.
20. cn said the following at 1:46 AM on Sep 4:
Maybe its just the nature of my personality, but I've always had married friends, of all ages and stages in life. Personally, I've always sought out churches that were very multi-generational and opted for mixed small groups rather than ones of all one age group.
One thing I learned while I was still fully single (now engaged :) ) was that no matter how busy I was, a mother of three was much more maxed out than me. My schedule was my own, even if it included a job, school and church service, but her's just wasn't. With this in mind, I wanted time we spent together to be equally beneficial. This might mean inviting the married couple for dinner at MY apartment, or suggesting an outing at the park one week day so the kids could play and the mom and I could talk. Do you have a pool at your Apartment? Same idea as the park, the kids swim, the adults talk. As inconvenient as this might be, there also has to be an understanding that a family might have to make last minute cancellations for various reasons (someone needs stitches, etc.) and really bearing patiently with those possibilities.
Its also helpful to be direct and clear with your intentions. "I see things in your marriage and family that I'd like in mine one day. I was wondering if we could get together because I'd love to learn from your wisdom." That encouragement alone will make for a mutually beneficial friendship.
21. Kelly said the following at 7:30 AM on Sep 4:
Single and overwhelemed at times? I totally relate to that! I've been lucky in that my Dad has helped me HEAPS over the years without question, without complaint, even when I insist he shouldn't go to that much trouble. He is an awesome man.
Likewise, when living away from family, I have learned to be humble and ask for help from acquaintences. People are often surpringly generous when they see you are in need. Their generosity has in turn taught me to look out for the 'single person without a network'.
In terms of married friends: I have 4 younger siblings; 3 married, 1 in a long-term relationship (she's only 20). I am surrounded by good role models and examples of marriage but it is hard to be the 'odd one out' at family gatherings!
I seek out other singles in church these days, because on the cusp of 30, the singles are now the smaller group rather than the larger group and I find it's good to connect with both.
22. Jesse said the following at 9:12 AM on Sep 4:
I'm getting married in 44 days.
My main ministry will be giving myself up for my wife and focussing on my marriage: especially in the first year (see Deut. 24:5). Beyond that, couples don't usually invite singles out because they don't want singles to feel awkward! My fiancee and I don't want to corner someone into becoming the proverbial third wheel.
Even as a single, I never really had the desire to hang out with married couples. I didn't know it was incumbent upon them to invite me out. It's not fair to hold couples to a contract they didn't sign.
However, I will be sure to keep our eyes open to this need in our church when I am married.
23. Matt said the following at 9:36 AM on Sep 4:
I think there is value in having co-mingled Bible studies. That is why my church does Bible studies based upon location rather than by stage in life.
However, some of my good guy friends are married already. I interact with them individually, but not as much as a couple.
I think however there is value to married couples(esp. newly married couples) to be in community with other married couples. There are problems and issues that are solely related to being married that us single people haven't had to deal with.
24. Rachael said the following at 9:46 AM on Sep 4:
So neat that Jesse's (22) main ministry will be giving himself up for his wife, especially in the first year. If I marry, I too want my main ministry to be to my family and those I come in contact with on a daily basis, and I want to develop my personal faith.
At the moment I don't have a million things going on all at once, but I have been in places in my life where there is a lot going on.
I realize that if I marry the person I'm dating, he will have a lot going on especially for the first several months when we marry and that I'll need to be patient and supportive, which will be hard at times.
I don't want to get in a position, though, where I overcommit and can't take good care of those I will love dearly: my future family.
I want them to be my first "ministry", and if my personal faith grows, that would help that.
25. Bertha said the following at 10:42 AM on Sep 4:
I'm part of a post-college bible study. It started off with mostly singles, however, in the last few years many of the members have gotten married and most of them have continued to come. So we tend to have a nice blend of married and singles....of course, this group is not approved by the church, if it were it would either have to be a "married" or "singles" group.
26. Tami said the following at 10:52 AM on Sep 4:
Even if you are out with a married couple or two, it doesn't *automatically follow* that you'll feel like a "third wheel" or "fifth wheel". A lot of it has to do with the way the couple treats you.
I often go out with one married couple, neither of whom make me feel awkward that I'm not attached (though I'm sure they'd like to see me with a boyfriend!). OTOH I have one married friend who likes to stir up the couple-ey schmoopiness... even though I've mentioned to her (privately) that it makes me feel isolated and uncomfortable. (And no, she's not a newlywed.)
Unfortunately -- I've noticed that, for some unknown reason, Christian couples are more likely to play up the couple-ey-ness than the nonChristians. I *do not* chalk it up to the relationships themselves -- these are all happy couples.
Of course, your own attitude plays into this as well. If you think, "Here I am, unmarried in the midst of all these couples," of course you'll feel isolated, no matter how you're treated. But if your attitude is, "Thank God for these friends; I admire them as individuals, as well as their relationships," that staves off some of the awkwardness (not to mention self pity).
27. Jo said the following at 11:00 AM on Sep 4:
I'm with BDB on the arguments for having mixed small groups. In my
small group, there are:
Three single 20something women
One single 30something guy
A young married couple
A young engaged couple
A middle aged couple who have children and grandchildren
A middle aged married man (his wife attends a different group)
A middle aged widow (my mum)
I absolutely love the mix that this creates. We're all at different stages of life and from different walks of life - we simply wouldn't have anything in common in any other context. But as a group focused on Christ we've grown really close, we pray and worship together, we're open about our problems and struggles and we genuinely enjoy each other's company.
I know that I'd appreciate a group for younger people or maybe a singles group as well as the group I'm in, but certainly not instead.
28. Jo said the following at 11:05 AM on Sep 4:
Having said that though, I don't know if I'd be comfy hanging out with a married couple as one single person. It would seem a bit of an uneven balance I think - it's different in a group, but if it was just me and then it might feel kinda like tagging along on a date! A guy friend of mine recently got married, and he and his wife (who is lovely) have extended an open invitation to go round for dinner sometime, but I'm a bit unsure for that reason. Any thoughts on that?
29. Elizabeth said the following at 1:04 PM on Sep 4:
I'm incredibly grateful for the relationships I have in my church with the married couples and families. There are two or three women I'm getting closer to (I've only been at my church for about a year) but they are so fabulous about giving me advice in all matters of life (not just guys!).
If I get married, I hope to pass along that same type of friendship to other single girls.
30. Laura said the following at 1:39 PM on Sep 4:
I want to echo what some of the others have said about Bible studies that are separated into "married" and "single." My church has home groups that are organized by geography, so, for example, my group has singles from their teens to their mid-30s, and married folks with and without kids. It's an amazing family group, and we've learned that Christ unites people regardless of whether or not they "look" like each other.
Jesse, I think it's biblical and admirable that you're committed to ministering to your wife primarily, but I don't think that means you have to minister to her EXCLUSIVELY. God designed us to be in relationship with each other; that's why he created the church. And I can't imagine being uncomfortable hanging out with a married couple, unless they spend all their time gazing into each other's eyes, which is pretty rude if there's someone else around, don't you think? If you invite a couple of single men or ladies over for dinner and engage them in conversation, ask about their lives, share your life with them... well, I can just about guarantee they're not going to feel cornered into being a third wheel!
Besides which, Paul, a single man, gave godly encouragement to married couples throughout his letters to churches. You would be missing out on blessing and joy if you chose not to relate with and love on single folks!! :)
31. Elizabeth (from Canada) said the following at 1:54 PM on Sep 4:
I have some wonderful married friends. Yes, it can be slightly awkward at times, especially if you knew your friend before she was married but didn't know her husband at all. I find I really have to put an effort into getting to know them as a couple. One thing that I like to do when visiting is to make it a "work visit." That is, we do something together, like house cleaning, gardening, or so forth. Then, we can visit while still doing something useful.
That said, I do feel a great deal of frustration when people constantly remind me that if someone is dating or married that I have to take a back seat. I know that is the case, but it's almost expected that my friends will basically ignore me when they meet a guy, and I find it extremely inconsiderate and hurtful. I almost feel as though they only want to have female friends until they can meet a guy.
32. Christine said the following at 2:46 PM on Sep 4:
As a 27 year old single woman who has never had a serious relationship, I've been the single friend to several married couples over the last few years. Some of my most meaningful friendships have been with married women. I guess - from reading these comments - that I've really been blessed!
However, I do want to say that I am very frustrated with not fitting in the church. I don't belong in the college ministry - I've been out of college for 5 years - and I don't have a family, so I don't fit there either. I wish more churches had ministries that weren't divided by marital status!!
Being a single adult, I have had to learn to ask for help and to tell people when I'm too busy. But, like others, I have had the whole guilt trip thing from people who don't think I can possibly be all that busy since I'm single.
33. MacKenzie said the following at 3:45 PM on Sep 4:
I moved to a different state right after I got married and luckily, found a great church. We went to the college/young adult group and loved hanging out with single students, married grad students, really anyone who would have us! Our minister and his wife were also younger (late 20s) so they might have helped bridge the gap, it didn't seem weird for us as a married couple to hang out with singles because we knew the pastor and his wife would be there too.
I also joined the women's bible study which had women of all ages, some single, some married, some divorced. I love how we all were at different stages but could relate because of our mutual love of Christ.
It might have been the church, it was small so we made groups with what we had but I am so thankful for them. We recently moved and are finding it difficult at our new church, the small groups are either for single college students or for families with kids, there doesn't seem to be a fit for us, a young married couple. But my experience has taught me that most people won't exclude you purposefully and if you are kind, they will be kind back. That will be my approach as we try to make friends, of all sorts, in the next few months.
34. Casey (the student nurse) said the following at 4:09 PM on Sep 4:
I might be on the younger end of the boundless reading spectrum (I'm 21), but I'm very interested in this issue, because as a single (with divorced parents) moving toward marriage, i truly desire to see the triumphs, tribulations, and loving relationships present in a Christ-centered marriage. I think its critical for us as singles to be a part of and a witness to this dynamic.
At my church, the singles and the young marrieds (without kids) have pretty much separated themselves from each other. Unintentionally, i think, but separated none the less. I've always wondered why this occurred and have tried to intentionally reach out to some of these young marrieds, although, they tend to be busy or out with each other instead.
I've found that the only marrieds I'm able to interact with in the church are those with kids. It seems the best way to get to know a married person is by first befriending their children. This is somewhat related to my position as a youth leader, but also because there would be no real ability or opportunity to connect with the marrieds otherwise.
As for if they engage us as singles? Not really, but i think a few of us on both ends are really trying to break down that wall.
And i can't wait.
35. Tamara said the following at 4:19 PM on Sep 4:
Married couples as friends . . . definitely! There are a couple of married couples that I would include in my circle of very close friends. I knew them all before they were married and our friendship has changed a bit since they got married, but it is definteily possible.
And I feel that the married couples in my church are very open and comfortable with having friendships with single people as well. I have never felt that because I was single I didn't fit in, or like it was awkward. In many situations I have also had them approach me to start getting to know each other rather than me having to do that.
My friendships with married people take more work because they have another person to consider when making plans to do something, but they are still valuable and honest friendships. I appreciate having friends who are willing to be honest about the struggles, but also, and just as importantly, the joys of being married. It's taught me a lot about what I want in my marriage one day.
As for being overcommitted . . . yup, I've been there. But it wasn't because people at church assumed I had the time because I was single. It was because an opportunity was presented to help with something (and presented to both married and singles) and I said yes without thinking clearly about how much I was already doing. I have never felt like I've been expected to do more because I was single and didn't have a family at home.
36. Tami said the following at 4:30 PM on Sep 4:
Jo (28), I understand it can be a bit awkward, but I encourage you to go. :) If both of them extended the invitation, then they both want you to feel welcome with them in their home. Bring a small housewarming gift, ooh and aah over their new home and the dinner, and get to know his wife a bit better. Or if dinner seems too much, stop in for coffee/tea/dessert on a weekend afternoon.
Besides, unless you stay way past 9 PM or so, dinner at their home *will not* feel like you are intruding on their date night out. Trust me. :)
On another topic, I favor Bible studies that mix marrieds and unmarrieds as well. I don't seem to recall the early Church segregating families, widows, and unmarried folks into different studies; they were all called to love, encourage, and instruct one another, and help materially when needed.
37. BDB said the following at 4:50 PM on Sep 4:
Jo (#28)
What immediately springs to mind is that your guy friend wants you to be friends with your wife, if you aren't already. I do have one good female friend from college who is married - I knew them both in college and encouraged her to marry him. I'd definitely want her opinion on anyone I was serious about. To the extent that I'd be willing to buy a plane ticket so they could have lunch together.
But as C.S. Lewis writes, it's wonderful if your new spouse can enter into your existing circle of friends.
38. BDB said the following at 5:03 PM on Sep 4:
Casey (#34) is right:
I think it's particularly valuable or children of divorce to be around people with successful marriages. For those who are willing to learn, it's much better than "therapy." You observe basic things like the fact that long, happily married people almost never speak disrespectfully of their spouse. For some people, just seeing that will make them realize they need to discipline their negative tongue.
One year, my church brought in a new pastor over small groups. Suddenly, all the interesting Bible study topics became Couples Only. I complained - I'd actually been going to the church a lot longer than this new pastor. The next year the policy was adjusted with a big chunk of the groups open for either singles or couples.
The group I was in before this one I was invited - the group was already pretty much all couples. They wanted people who would actually read the lesson before showing up. Then those leaders changed to a new format - newlyweds. I do think that group needs to exist - a lot of people get married and are woefully unprepared for reality - better to let them be together and realize they're not alone.
Though, amusingly enough, I DID go with that group to a Mexico mission. It was quite enjoyable - in part because it was the first trip out of the country for several of us, so we were all about using bottled water to brush our teeth, etc. Another group went that weekend - one with tons of children, so us childless adults ended up with a lot more in common than we originally thought.
39. BDB said the following at 6:35 PM on Sep 4:
Sorry, in #37 I meant to become friends with HIS wife...typing too fast again...
40. Leah said the following at 8:06 PM on Sep 4:
Tami said Unfortunately -- I've noticed that, for some unknown reason, Christian couples are more likely to play up the couple-ey-ness than the nonChristians.
Can I make a suggestion? I've noticed that with non-Christian married couples, they've normally lived together for quite a while before getting married, so that "newly married" vibe has worn off a long time before they even got married! Perhaps that could have something to do with the difference in behaviour you've noticed between christian and non-christian newly married couples?
(Of course, that doesn't account for your non-newly-married friend).
Elizabeth from Canada said One thing that I like to do when visiting is to make it a "work visit." That is, we do something together, like house cleaning, gardening, or so forth.
I want more single friends like you!! ;)
41. Rachael said the following at 9:56 PM on Sep 4:
About Christian couple-ey-ness (40, 26)...yay? Yay that they're in love ;)
I think it would be neat if the coupleyness in a future marriage could continue to an old age. I realize some/most of it may die, but, it would be SO cool if some of it continued...it would be fun to be in at least 'semi-touch' in the last leg of life (if we're given a lot of years on earth...). And I think it could be a testament to younger people of the possibility to be 'in love' in even an 'in touch' way at an old age!
42. BDB said the following at 10:06 PM on Sep 4:
Hmmm...Leah (#40)'s suggestion has merit...
I do think the newlyweds small group is a good idea. I don't think it should exclude young marrieds and young singles from being in a young adults group if they want.
My small group isn't as diverse...basically everyone but me has been married for 20 years. And several (most?) of those couples weren't Christians when they got married. But it's a mature group of Christians, and we're all involved in 2-3 other ministries. So, we tend to be discipling newer Christians in different settings.
It is interesting to hear all the prayer requests of people concerned about their teenage children appearing to fall away from God, and how that breaks their parent's hearts.
43. Tami said the following at 10:10 PM on Sep 4:
Leah (40) -- the friends I'm thinking of, in particular, didn't live together first.
Now that I've thought a bit more about it, it may be that the nonChristians' attitude towards marriage as something positive, but not profound, has something to do with it. Also, many of them view singleness as positive and "the norm" -- like, "being single is fun! Why *wouldn't* you want to be single?"** So that may be part of why they don't let go of their single friends -- to them, they're the "fun, free" friends, and they want that "vibe" to continue.
**Note I'm not talking about promiscuity (as my nonChristian friends know my lifestyle) -- it has more to do with the "freedom" to do what you want, when you want. But I don't even have that -- who does? :P
I'm really, really thankful that my church is starting to really emphasize the commingling of generations.
44. Tami said the following at 11:07 PM on Sep 4:
Rachael (41) -- By no means am I begrudging anyone happiness, and I don't want a ban on affection! I like to see couples that love and respect one another, of course.
But there's a difference between showing affection towards one another, and making pointed comments in mixed (married/unmarried) company about how WONDERFUL it is to be a COUPLE, while you're sitting next to someone whom you know is longing for marriage, but isn't married. The former shows sensitivity towards your spouse; the latter displays a lack of sensitivity towards others.
45. Tami said the following at 11:11 PM on Sep 4:
Sorry for making a million comments in a row; you can combine them if you want. :)
A word popped into my mind: hospitality. I think I'm stealing this from someplace, but here goes: the love in a home sustained by a good marriage can radiate from the couple to the others around them, creating a sense of warmth and welcomeness. But when it turns inward (or overly narcissistic, which I think can happen even between two people), it becomes a self-centered display. The former welcomes; the latter excludes.
46. Kelly said the following at 5:33 AM on Sep 5:
Let me preface this by saying I'm not intending to 'attack' anyone, this is more a statement of feelings.
Jesse said: "My main ministry will be giving myself up for my wife and focussing on my marriage: especially in the first year..."
Elizabeth said: "I do feel a great deal of frustration when people constantly remind me that if someone is dating or married that I have to take a back seat."
---
This is all too common. Is it something we these days accept as 'that's what happens'? Or should we challenge it?
One other thing I have noticed is that if I am close to a male friend, and he meets his future wife, that close friendship is gone forever. To maintain his friendship, I naturally befriend his wife, and end up becoming closer to her.
It makes me quite sad at times even though I understand it.
Have any women out there experienced a happier ending in this type of scenario?
47. BDB said the following at 12:23 PM on Sep 5:
I do think that Paul's observation is relevant here:
But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord-how he may please the Lord. But he who is married cares about the things of the world-how he may please his wife. There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit. But she who is married cares about the thingsof the world-how she may please her husband. (1 Cor 7:32-34)
I do think that Deuteonomy 24:5 is worth noting:
"When a man has taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war or charged with any business; he shall be free at home one year, and bring happiness to his wife whom he has taken."
Note - this is ONE YEAR - long enough to have that first kid in the Bronze Age, I imagine. It does not say that his calling is now his kids - something that isn't biblical at all as far as I can tell. Periodically my pastor mentions this in a sermon on destiny - noting that people who say their calling is their kids don't understand the calling thing yet.
Though I have a mixed small group, it doesn't mean we do everything together. During the summer we meet maybe once or twice a month (I hosted one of these BBQs at my house).
Sometimes on our "off" weeks a few of the couples get together for dinner. Now, I can choose my response. I can be offended I wasn't invited to dinner. Or I can recognize that sometimes, couples want to get together and discuss couply things, and leave space for that.
48. Emily, formerly known as Exchurchmouse said the following at 3:47 PM on Sep 5:
My Wake Up Call
I am beginning to realize that it is difficult for a single person to weather through difficult situations, such as financial problems and house maintainence issues.
I am happy as a single person and I have friends who are married and friends who are single.
I have been wading through some very difficult situations and I noticed the difference between the magnitude of responsibilities for myself and my married (happily, not the miserable married people) friends. Last night, I hit a turning point and realized that I need to think about the decisions I am making so I can attract a person who is responsible and is willing to build a home with me. My tendency to judge and mouth out exactly what I think are definitely factors that have affected my status!
Last night was a big wake up call for me and I realized that I need to put away the pride I had in my independent nature. I know that such pride has put me in a place where I have put a wall between myself and healthy people.
FYI, I'm only speaking for myself, not what's prescribed for other single people.
49. Rachael said the following at 4:10 PM on Sep 5:
Ah, Tami (44), good point. Sensitivity is what is needed.
Nice. Glad you're not banning affection ;)
50. Rachael said the following at 4:15 PM on Sep 5:
Hi again Tami (45):
You wrote: "But when it turns inward (or overly narcissistic, which I think can happen even between two people), it becomes a self-centered display. The former welcomes; the latter excludes."
--> Can I ask for a fictional example of this, if you feel it wouldn't be a sin to explain (like if it ended up as gossip or stirred up negative emotions)? If not, that is totally fine. I'm just curious about this. Thanks!
51. Tamara said the following at 4:39 PM on Sep 5:
In response to Kelly (#46)
I do think that, as a female, when a good guy frined gets married there should be some sort of a change in my friendship with him. Honetsly, if there wasn't, I would start to get a little concerned. To a degree, I think it is important that a newly married couple be intentional about making their relationship with each other more of a priority at first.
THat being said - all other friends should not be completely ignored either. Just as isolating yourselves in a dating relationship isn;t good, I can't see how isolating your marriage would be good either. We were created to live in community.
I have experienced both losing good male friends when they get married and keeping the same friendship with them. To keep that friednship takes a lot of work and it does require that you become frineds with his new wife (if you aren't already).
His new wife should be his most important relationship (besides God) that he has. Even a friendship of many years shouldn't come in between. Maintaining male-female friendships when one person gets married to some else takes extra work, but if they are a good friend I would say it's worth the work.
I'd say that as a female you need to be willing to have a conversation with the guy and make it clear that you are not going to get in between him and his wife. He may be unsure of how to proceed in your friendship now that he's married.
52. BDB said the following at 6:50 PM on Sep 5:
Tamara (#51) wrote:
>>I'd say that as a female you need to be willing to have a conversation with the guy and make it clear that you are not going to get in between him and his wife.<<
Well, why wait until after the wedding?
I had a friend in college who was having all her friends tease her about marrying a certain guy. I had noticed that he was, in fact, impressively serious and committed to her well being. While she was still writing in her letters to me, "You do NOT hear Wedding Bells!", I came to the conclusion that it would, in fact, be a good match. And I kind of mentally adjusted accordingly.
One day, lamenting to me the people teasing her about getting married, she said (I'm sure jokingly), "Why do they say that?"
And I listed off about eight reasons she should marry him, based on his behavior. Such as once driving for hours to pick her up at the airport, drop her off at college, then drive four hours home again on the same day.
She said, "Oh." And changed the subject. And never complained about being teased again. They did get married a few years after that. And I definitely gave them some "space" to adjust. But they're still both good friends now.
And Emily (#48), I think you are right on track. I was listening to someone age 20 (with recently divorced parents) talk about how she wanted to be "super-independent" before she contemplated marriage. I think I need to tell her that it took me until age 35 to get there.
If someone feels like they're not needed, will they want to stick around?
53. KJ said the following at 7:16 PM on Sep 5:
Oh - and as to the part about married couples modeling good marriage - I wish I saw more of that. There are awesome couples out there that have the kind of relationship that makes a single person want to get married. Unfortunately, there are also an awful lot of really unhappy (at least in appearance) marriages...husbands who treat their wives like they are children, wives who act like they can't make even the simplest decision without their husbands' input. I've known couples where the husband disciplined the wife for a transgression by taking her over his knee and spanking her as one would a child. A friend once told me that her father expected her mother to work a full-time job and then come home and do all of the housework unassisted while he put his feet up and read the paper. Then there are the horror stories of divorced women, women who meant for marriage to be for a lifetime but were abandoned by their (often unfaithful) husbands. Mental images like that do NOT foster a desire for marriage. And unfortunately, it's those negative images that stick in our heads more than the positive, loving ones.
54. a sister said the following at 8:35 PM on Sep 5:
I identify with so many of the comments here.
I'm single and pretty independent. I do everything for myself and for the most part, I don't mind at all.
Many of my friends are married but in the church - and I do love my church - the married people don't seem to have any interest in friendship with me as a single.
I don't feel at all awkward hanging with married friends -- they are married and I'm not. In my mind, that's a big "so what" - I relate w/ married people at work all the time and that doesn't bother me either.
But the married people at church don't seem to want to include me in their activities -- they are the ones who seem to feel awkward or too busy... I am busy and I know they are too -- but I can make time for fellowship.
I benefit from seeing even moderately healthy relationships between married couples -- I wish there were more opportunities to do so.
55. Jo said the following at 11:14 AM on Sep 6:
Tami (45):
"But there's a difference between showing affection towards one another, and making pointed comments in mixed (married/unmarried) company about how WONDERFUL it is to be a COUPLE, while you're sitting next to someone whom you know is longing for marriage, but isn't married."
Amen to that. Last Sunday recently married friend was telling me with literal GLEE that now he's married he's graduated into the 'elite' of his church and everyone suddenly respects him (apparently singles never get asked to contribute at his church). I very much wanted to tell him that he's still one of the least mature people I know, but I refrained...
56. V said the following at 8:40 PM on Sep 7:
I'm a 29 year old single woman who moved alone for a job to a town that does not appear to have any single people between the ages of 25-35 in church. Had I known this beforehand, I would have been hesitant to move. I feel so isolated and alone. I've visited 7 churches in 6 months and have not found one to connect at all. I'm normally a very outgoing, charismatic person who has no trouble attracting, making, or keeping friends, but I've also never seen such a void of ministries for my age group...married or single. There are mom's groups and ladies bible studies that meet during the day during the week (pretty much excluding working women) along with youth groups and college groups galore...but no way for me to connect to anyone, let alone anyone my age. It is really sad. I'm so used to serving in a church whether in the choir or children's ministry or with community outreaches but all I've encountered lately is doors shutting in my face. It's no wonder there aren't people my age in church today...the church effectively has shut them out in their efforts to cater to young families.
57. Lynne said the following at 10:10 PM on Sep 7:
Just wanted to add a few comments from the married side of things.
My husband and I both enjoy friendships with single people. As we've gotten older, some of those singles are never-married and some are divorced.
One of the most enjoyable things we've done over the past year is start a quarterly birthdays dinner party. It consists of us, and 5 single women: my sister, her best friend, my best friend, her sister and a mutual friend. It's always refreshing to hear their perspectives and they seems to enjoy being with us. They accommodate by always coming to our house, so we don't have to hire a sitter.
Other ways my single friends spend time around me and my husband is when they come over and hang out before or after and activity. So, we might be planning to meet for coffee, and I'll invite them to drop by for dinner before hand. Another single friend will sometimes call and say "can I bring some lunch by?" on random Saturdays (we pay her back for the food : )
I think a way to increase interactions is not to feel like you have to schedule an "event" but to just call and see if you can drop by. I, personally, am always open to another set of hands during what we affectionately refer to as the "witching hours" (5-7pm). This is when everyone is trying to get dinner prepped and kids ready for bed (Our kids eat early in the kitchen any my husband and I eat later so we can talk more). I had friends drop by and I'm always happy to see them. Even if things are a bit chaotic!
58. Tamara said the following at 3:51 PM on Sep 8:
BDB (#52)
>>I'd say that as a female you need to be willing to have a conversation with the guy and make it clear that you are not going to get in between him and his wife.<<
Well, why wait until after the wedding?<<
I wasn't meaning that it had to wait until after wedding for you to have that conversation about not coming between them at all. I was saying that in my experience, it is a helpful thing to day as it can remove some of the concern over keeping a male-female friendship when one of you marries someone else.
I was responding to Kelly (#46) where she asked about why it seemed that good friendships with guys would often end when he got married. I was stating that one of the reasons I have found that this happens is becuase of this concern and having this conversation can be helpful. No where did I state when it should happen, just that it should happen, at the appropriate time.
59. Zusanne said the following at 3:54 PM on Sep 8:
I have married friends from my church, but I don't spend time with them as couples because of the way my church is structured. It's a mindset that I've had to accept because it was established decades ago and I can't change it. I've worked really hard to find a "place" for myself at my church. I attend a large-ish (500) church full of wonderful people. Before and after services I enjoy socializing, and I get along well with the leadership of my church, but during Sunday School and after we leave the church, I'm the odd person out.
Our Sunday School classes are divided by age, which means, since most people my age (late 30's) are married, I'm not necessarily welcome. Not UNwelcome, but not welcome, either. I'm friendly (and even good friends) with these people--it's not a personality issue--it's a status issue.
The single ones, while delightful, are much younger, often MUCH younger (some of them I taught when they were in middle school).
The place where I feel most welcome is with the senior citizens. Nice mixture of married and singles there. I visit them for a few minutes each week.
I think my biggest frustration on Sunday mornings is finding a place to sit. I sing in the choir, and I leave my purse and Bible in the auditorium for when I come back. Often someone has moved my things and taken my seat. I don't mind sitting by myself, but when I don't have a seat, even though it's my church in which I'm very active, I'm often discouraged.
I've never had unsaved people make the digs to me that believers have made about my marital status. It's the believers who know that something must be wrong with me because God's holding out on me ("no good thing will He uphold from them that walk uprightly"); it's the believers who make the digs about how I have so much more free time than they (I understand Michelle's comment about having sole responsibility for every decision--I don't want to know as much about cars and home repairs as I do); it's the believers who expect me to take on extras because they can't. I don't really get that from nonbelievers.
I guess it's because the church, the family of God, is a family-friendly place. I would love to be able to worship and serve in God's house with my husband! I don't want to take that privilege away from my friends, either. I just wish that the growing single population in church had a place.
60. Amelia said the following at 9:43 PM on Sep 8:
Not convinced that anyone will read this, but I have a number of miscellaneous thoughts loosely related to the topic:
1. Singles should not underestimate how busy married people can be, regardless of their kid status
2. Married people should not underestimate how busy single people can be
3. Single people should remember that all married people were single once
4. Married people should remember that there is nothing wrong with being single
5. Single people should realise that being married doesn't change you as a person nearly as much as you might think
6. Married people should not isolate themselves from singles
7. Single people should realise that married people often seek out other married people so they can learn stuff about marriage
8. Married people should realise that it can be pretty awkward being a single person amongst a bunch of married people
9. Single people should realise that it can be just as awkward being a married person around a bunch of singles
10. Married people should not make unnecessary comments about a single person's singleness, such as the always-awkward "So... seeing anyone?"
11. Single people should not make unnecessary comments about a married couple's relationship, such as "Oh look, it's their first fight!" (eg. when someone gets mildly annoyed at their spouse for beating them in a board game)
61. Rachel said the following at 11:56 PM on Nov 23:
Adam (post #18),
I completely agree with you about spending time with married friends. The majority of my friends, by far, are married, and while I love them dearly, it is always difficult to spend time with them in the way we did before they were married. No longer do we have the same schedules, or even the same activities that we can necessarily participate in. I know they care for me deeply and have a strong desire for me to get married, it becomes difficult for them to understand what my life is like as a young, single, adult. I appreciate their perspectives, guidance, and examples of godly marriages, but sometimes being with other single people is more refreshing to me than being surrounded by my married friends.
62. Linda said the following at 8:00 PM on Mar 7:
Being married/single both parties have something to offer the other. Married people can be open about things they have gone through,and how they over came it. What they had to go through to become one. It gives the single people an idea of what they need to be honest with themselves. I have many married friends,that we talk about everything and we listen to each other. Listening not to try to fix anything, or tell each other what to do, just listening.God has designed us that if we talk long enough we will find the answer to whatever the problem is. We are all in the body of Chirst and we need each other because we are helpers one to the other.How can we help or assit each other if we don't talk, fellowship with each other? I am sure at the wedding where Jesus turned the water to wine, there was married and single people there. So to seperated the two would be harm to the body of Christ.