Is Success a Hindrance to Marriage? by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 09/24/2008 at 3:21 PM

A few months ago, the subtitle of an MSN article caught my attention: "Today's talented, ambitious women are staying single in droves. Are they too busy, too picky or — horrors — too awesome?"

My friend, a more-than-usually accomplished single woman, had sent me the article, which considers whether women can be "too successful for a mate." One issue discussed in the article is earning power:

It's the dirty little secret of the battle for gender equality. It's not that men still don't believe women are equally capable, they just have a hard time visualizing their role in a relationship when the woman outranks them on all the measures they use to gauge their own success. It's a little sad for the men, really. It also makes it very difficult for these power chicks to find a partner.

That makes sense. After all, God has designed males and females with distinct roles. And traditionally, men have been the protectors and providers. But with the average marrying age hovering in the late 20s, women now have some gap years where they must figure out how to pay the bills. And if they happen to succeed in their chosen professions, they may be perceived by men as "power chicks."

Conversely a woman may feel pressure to choose a partner who is even more successful than herself — an expectation that may eliminate potentially great matches. The author — a successful career woman herself — explains how she overcame this urge:

I abandoned the expectation of many "must-have" items in my years of dating before I met my husband. It's not that I couldn't find a man who possessed the right qualities, but it turned out they were irrelevant to a happy relationship. Was it crucial that my husband have a master's degree? No. Would it be a deal-breaker if he didn't love mountain biking as much as I do? No.

In the end, common values and goals, generosity, intelligence, respect, a warped sense of humor and a mutual attraction floated to the top of the list. Nearly everything else on that list was negotiable, including income and educational attainment.

I touched on this in "My Single Identity Baggage."

I can be a little prideful when I look at my bags, and consider them too seriously when looking for a match. In the end, my spouse and I will probably have similarities, but he may not hold all the bags I think he should (and he may not be as impressed with some of my bags as I think he should).

In other words, don't let your level of success (or someone else's) dominate your approach to relationships. Success comes from the Lord, and the world's definition of it is vastly different from God's. So no, I don't believe you can be too successful for a mate. However, you may miss a potentially successful relationship if you overvalue achievement. 

Is Success a Hindrance to Marriage? by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 09/24/2008 at 3:21 PM

A few months ago, the subtitle of an MSN article caught my attention: "Today's talented, ambitious women are staying single in droves. Are they too busy, too picky or — horrors — too awesome?"

My friend, a more-than-usually accomplished single woman, had sent me the article, which considers whether women can be "too successful for a mate." One issue discussed in the article is earning power:

It's the dirty little secret of the battle for gender equality. It's not that men still don't believe women are equally capable, they just have a hard time visualizing their role in a relationship when the woman outranks them on all the measures they use to gauge their own success. It's a little sad for the men, really. It also makes it very difficult for these power chicks to find a partner.

That makes sense. After all, God has designed males and females with distinct roles. And traditionally, men have been the protectors and providers. But with the average marrying age hovering in the late 20s, women now have some gap years where they must figure out how to pay the bills. And if they happen to succeed in their chosen professions, they may be perceived by men as "power chicks."

Conversely a woman may feel pressure to choose a partner who is even more successful than herself — an expectation that may eliminate potentially great matches. The author — a successful career woman herself — explains how she overcame this urge:

I abandoned the expectation of many "must-have" items in my years of dating before I met my husband. It's not that I couldn't find a man who possessed the right qualities, but it turned out they were irrelevant to a happy relationship. Was it crucial that my husband have a master's degree? No. Would it be a deal-breaker if he didn't love mountain biking as much as I do? No.

In the end, common values and goals, generosity, intelligence, respect, a warped sense of humor and a mutual attraction floated to the top of the list. Nearly everything else on that list was negotiable, including income and educational attainment.

I touched on this in "My Single Identity Baggage."

I can be a little prideful when I look at my bags, and consider them too seriously when looking for a match. In the end, my spouse and I will probably have similarities, but he may not hold all the bags I think he should (and he may not be as impressed with some of my bags as I think he should).

In other words, don't let your level of success (or someone else's) dominate your approach to relationships. Success comes from the Lord, and the world's definition of it is vastly different from God's. So no, I don't believe you can be too successful for a mate. However, you may miss a potentially successful relationship if you overvalue achievement. 

Comments

[1. BDB said the following at 4:01 PM on Sep 24:]

1

The OP wrote:

>>Conversely a woman may feel pressure to choose a partner who is even more successful than herself — an expectation that may eliminate potentially great matches.<<

Early in my career, sitting behind the walls of my cubicle, I overheard a number of conversations of women in the office along these lines. More specifically, because they were in sales, they stated emphatically how they would never consider a man who made less money than them.

At the time, I made less than they did - I was fresh out of college. Eventually I finished graduate school and passed them. But I definitely keep in mind that women in sales are primarily motivated by money.

I'll be honest with you: if I meet a sales person and a teacher at an event, I'm going to talk to the teacher more. Unless it's a charity event where the sales person is a major donor, and she brought her married sister, the teacher.

[2. VJD said the following at 4:32 PM on Sep 24:]

2

Amen! I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title. I finally met someone who is confident enough to see past my title. He just happened to be a few years younger than me, which in my early 20s was a deal-breaker. We all have little hurdles we need to jump over as we get older. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm anxious to see the comments from some of the guys out there...

[3. CG said the following at 5:04 PM on Sep 24:]

3

I like this post. As someone who has been relatively successful academically, it's frustrating to me when a guy acts like I'm way too smart for him. Most guys don't act that way, but it definitely seems a deterrent.
However, I'm not going to "dumb myself down" just to find a mate. I'm sure there is a guy out there I can be an intellectual equal with, even if we have totally different academic backgrounds. :)

[4. BDB said the following at 5:08 PM on Sep 24:]

4

I think that the article presents a false choice. It's not that men want to make ALL the decisions. Anyone who does that will eventually burn out and/or have a resentful person blow up eventually. A bigger issue is people who refuse to listen, and refuse to consider other perspectives.

It happens in management, too. Entrepreneurs who fail to consider other perspectives often go bankrupt - they refuse to listen to the unhappy customer. Just this morning I read a chapter in one of Harvey Mackay's books where he points out that the most successful business people listen to their wife's perspective.

My grandparents are both extremely capable. At 92 my grandfather still reads The Economist and we had quite a chat about this financial debacle. What they did was divide up the world - each of them controls half the world. Each of them is the final decision-maker in certain areas. And they're careful to observe the boundaries and not try to undermine their authority. This sometimes leads to power-struggles, such as when my grandmother wanted to spend $20,000 putting a sun room onto their apartment in the retirement home. The impasse lasted until she agreed that my grandfather could get a new used car for $20,000. I think it's kind of funny, but it's also clear that they're making decisions together; neither one is in charge 100% of the time.

I do know a number of outwardly successful women who categorically refuse to let anyone else influence their decision-making in any area. They react with extreme hostility to any suggested change in course.

Sometimes the issue is squarely within my area of expertise, and she's clearly going to fail if she follows her present course...I mean, why would I want to tie my fate to someone who won't listen to me even when I'm literally an expert? It's really not attractive.

[5. Farmer Pete said the following at 5:34 PM on Sep 24:]

5

May I suggest that it is not talent or work ethic that is off-putting about women who are highly succesful careers.

(1) The commitment to a career that is required for success leaves less room for commitment to husband, family and home. Men have to deal with this conflict all the time, which is - perhaps - why we recognise it and consider that having two such conflicted people in a marraige is a little too much.

(2) The competetive drive required to be successful in a career is not attractive when it has the potential to be applied in a marraige relationship. For those of us who take the husband's leadership role seriously, having to compete with our wife for that function is not a pleasant prospect.

Bear in mind that when making an initial assessment of a potential relationship, we have no crystal ball with which to see the future, so we look for attitude indicators. The attitudes required for success in business or career dop not always translate well into marraige.

We want a "helpmeet", not a rival.

Peter

[6. Esther said the following at 7:37 PM on Sep 24:]

6

Just connecting this to an earlier blog post... these "power chicks" may also find that the men with the $ already have wives and families that are motivating them to succeed.

As I get older, and more successful in my career, this has started to pop up on my radar. There just aren't all that many great men of faith who are educated, attractive, successful AND single. For most guys of this category, if marriage and family are priorities, they've already gotten that straightened out. Still, encouragement is out there. My cousin just announced his engagement to a wonderful Christian woman, and they are both in their 30's. She's Filipino, so in a sense he had to search halfway around the world, but they seem perfect for each other, after both had wondered if marriage would ever happen for them.

[7. Jade said the following at 8:02 PM on Sep 24:]

7

The timing of this article really strikes me as quite ironic as I was offered a huge promotion (in responsibility, not pay) at work this past week and start my new job tomorrow. I've been thinking a lot about how having a successful career, as a female, might impact my relationship with my husband. We work in similar fields so sometimes it is easy to feel like we are competing. I really enjoy what I do, and I am generally successful. I realize I could, if I want to, have a terrific career. My husband is supportive of me, however we know we want to have children sooner rather than later so I will probably give up my career in a couple more years to be a SAHM. Yeah, it stings a little to think of giving up all the respect and deferance I could earn if I stick with my career, but I want to be at home. As I have said before, I am so blessed to have found husband early in life, especially one who supports me and my dreams. I think at this point in my life, if I was single it would be incredibly hard to find a mate and probably wouldn't happen.

[8. khalil said the following at 8:11 PM on Sep 24:]

8

Perhaps it is just me, but why wouldn't I want to date/marry a successful person? Some people need to get over their issues and just deal with life and their baggage. I would be concerned if myself (or a friend) were dating "below" me and going after someone unsuccessful.

Success comes from the Lord, and the world's definition of it is vastly different from God's. AMEN!!! I love that statement.

[9. cn said the following at 8:30 PM on Sep 24:]

9

This is one area where boundless really helped me. As most firstborns go, I'm an achiever... motivated to do my best. This motivation landed me acceptance into one of the top ranked graduate architecture schools in America, and has carried me all over the world. So how does a driven woman find marriage? For one, Candice recommends talking about wanting to get married, so I tried it out. I made it clear to him that marriage and family was a greater dream than a career in architecture. Three months later we became engaged and I really do think that clarity in the beginning helped progress things.

On one hand, its about looking at the right character traits when finding a mate. On the other, its about being approachable yourself.

[10. John the Aggie said the following at 11:20 PM on Sep 24:]

10

Right on. As someone who easily succeeds in the academic world my priorities were warped for a while. I thought any girl I would consider dating would have at least a 3.5 college GPA and be able to hold highly philosophical conversations with me...

As I've grown I realized that, while such qualities are good to have, they are largely irrelevant. There are much more important characteristics to look for ("If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love...")

[11. Brad said the following at 3:25 AM on Sep 25:]

11

I presently work as a golf course attendant making a pretty low hourly wage (single digit dollars per hour). I have a college degree and I certainly do not expect this to be a career, but it is the job I have right now after several early-career letdowns. In my singles class most of the women have much better jobs than myself where they probably make 2 or 3 times as much per year, not to mention that their jobs have a much higher reputation. Yes, it is a bit intimidating but even more than that comes the prejudice that all women want to "marry up".

It does seem like women still want to attract a man who will bring them into a higher socioeconomic status than the one in which they currently live, and it makes it hard for us men who presently have humble jobs who want to marry; especially when the women in our circle of friends live at a much higher status during the same stage of life.

[12. Akofa said the following at 5:04 AM on Sep 25:]

12

I beg to differ, Suzanne. I don't see how 'success' can be a hinderance to marriage.

In my opinion, it's the high & mighty attitude that people get when they are 'successful' that hinders their prospects of getting married. It's possible to be 'successful' and humble.

Besides, people define 'success' differently. The kind of 'success' you're talking about is limited to career and workplace... life is more than that kind of 'success.'

[13. Cliff said the following at 8:07 AM on Sep 25:]

13

I am a 28 yr old male and I can see that success can be hindrance to marriage for both guys and girls.

As I am reading this post, I wonder if I have the courage to let go of the worldly definition of success and focus on relationship.

And by this can be of subtle difference. For example, not working over time (at the expense of a promotion) to spend more time with family.

[14. obewan said the following at 8:23 AM on Sep 25:]

14

Doesn't it really depend on how high the woman's position is?

I am all for women having careers, and I am most attracted to women with great jobs and good educations. But, there are limits.

For example, our company president was a single woman with an MIT engineering degree and a Harvard MBA. She sacrificed into her 40's to get where she is. She probably has a multi-million dollar salary as the CEO of a top fortune 500 aerospace firm. We all wondered how or if she would ever find a match considering her age and position. She recently did, and is having her first baby in a few months. She still has the high position. We are wondering if she found a similar match.

In my case, there is a cute doctor my own age on one of the Christian singles sites. What scares me is that her income is probably several hundred thousand dollars over my meager Sr. Engineer’s salary. So far, I have not contacted her. Even if it did work out, it might mean I would be forced to leave the job I love to move to be near her well-established practice. Plus, would she even be willing to consider someone with a lower position than doctors?

[15. Sheri said the following at 9:19 AM on Sep 25:]

15

"I would be concerned if myself (or a friend) were dating "below" me and going after someone unsuccessful."

That's what I think too. Most of the men that have been turned off by my success were lazy. So I think that any man worth while would be attracted to me because of my ambition. It means I have what it takes to run a home and not give up on him or life in general when life gets tough, not that I would try to compete with him. I think men with this idea are insecure, and would make bad partners anyway.

[16. Saidah said the following at 9:22 AM on Sep 25:]

16

Okay, I don't think the point is so much that guys are intimidated by success (and yes, I know from experience that some definitely are). But think about what the article said;

"It's not that men still don't believe women are equally capable, they just have a hard time visualizing their role in a relationship when the woman outranks them on all the measures they use to gauge their own success"

Like it or not, people want to know where they're needed. Especially men. So if you're superwoman, and you can pay your own bills, hold your job, and fight your own fights, what the heck is he supposed to do? Sorry, but guys looking for wives (whether they'll admit or not) are looking for women who look like great moms. Not great dads. So while you're out flaunting "anything you can do, I can do better," they're wondering, "uh, yah, but can you make a house homey? do you drive kids to soccer practice? do you have time for kids period?"

Like it or not, if you're looking for a husband, you might want to be less concerned with your career and more concerned with whether or not you have mommy-skills. The only guys you're likely to attract with your power act are guys looking for a sugar-momma or guys expecting you'll sign a pre-nup.

[17. DannieA said the following at 9:36 AM on Sep 25:]

17

Ok so the article and comments confuse me.

So what does it mean to have a "successful career"? are you only talking about jobs that gain money and over 100K? or are you talking about top people in your field...whatever that may be.

I consider myself to be successful and to be in the top of my field even though I'm a speech therapist working in the lowly school district and do not make over 100K a year.

I get myself educated on all the relevent information on Autism, Language disorders, augmentative communication, research based practices and best practices.....I feel I have a good professional opinion and practice that is highly regarded by my bosses at the Special Education office (yeah why else do they give me the pleasure of assessing and working with kids whose parents want to sue the school district so the parents will be happy with the speech services...gag....)
yet some comments give me the impression that because I work in the schools that basically I'm not a successful career woman. Let me tell you, I know some personality types that I work with that would have the same personality and "I'm always right attitude and not listening to anyone else" whether they work in the schools or in sales, or in corporate office.
If a woman has character, whether she is a CEO, lawyer, salesperson, teacher, speech therapist, physical therapist etc. it will shine through. If a woman has a sour character it will also shine through no matter what job.

[18. Leeandra said the following at 9:58 AM on Sep 25:]

18

@BDB: Wow--way to generalize about all women who work in sales, based on an overheard conversation.

I'm saying this as an ex-teacher who now works in sales...

[19. RJW said the following at 10:33 AM on Sep 25:]

19

I think it really depends on whether the man is intelligent, and has the capability to be successful too. I'm no genius, but I'm no dunce either, and therefore I find women who have a similar level of intelligence, if not a higher one more attractive then ones who lack such a gift.

I think men like to pursue a woman with whom they won't be intimidated by- especially if they are fairly passive intellectually, although actually actively seeking women less intelligent than themselves so they won't be intimated is fairly self-refuting and certainly demonstrates some assertiveness!

I think women are more likely to be comfortable with marrying a man who is more intelligent than themselves.

But lastly, I think you can't lump 'success' into one big bag. I'd much rather marry a woman who had made a success of her life (who was a strong Christian etc.), than one who was 'successful', as this implies narcisism and self orientation around self-made goals. Subtle difference, but one nonetheless relevant, I think.

[20. carissa said the following at 11:02 AM on Sep 25:]

20

i liked this article's main underlying point, which seemed to be that a person's success and capabilities - one's resume, i guess - don't change the roles God has for us in marriage. a man is still called to love, lead, and provide no matter how high his education or salary is, and a woman is still called to respect, submit, and support likewise.

i did find this section to be odd: 'But with the average marrying age hovering in the late 20s, women now have some gap years where they must figure out how to pay the bills. And if they happen to succeed in their chosen professions, they may be perceived by men as "power chicks."'

was that serious? is it saying that women only dabble in successful careers when they have time to kill? if we got married earlier, we wouldn't have to bother with this whole messy empowerment thing? that's what it seems to be conveying, but maybe i'm reading it wrong.

[21. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:54 AM on Sep 25:]

21

@Leeandra (#18)

/giggle

...Oh the Irony...

I didn't much like the over-generalization, either...

I wonder, though, if the woman is looking for someone who can support her CURRENT lifestyle if she were to stay home with kids than for someone to IMPROVE her lifestyle.

Also, you want someone who challenges you and motivates you to do better...at least, that's what women want.

And guys? if what Saidah said is true, that guys want to be needed, than it goes to show that girls are gonna look UP and guys are gonna look DOWN.

Why does it have to be a sexist thing, a money-mongering thing, or anything negative?

Why can't it just be our "natural" tendencies - men want to protect, women want a safe and stable environment to raise a family in...

[22. farmer Tom said the following at 12:08 PM on Sep 25:]

22

I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title

That statement is a prime example of the problem. Ever heard the song, "You're So Vain"? Has it ever entered your mind that maybe they aren't intimidated at all, they simply reject your "success" as a determining factor of human worth. Maybe they are looking for a traditional wife, not a career woman.

Perhaps it is just me, but why wouldn't I want to date/marry a successful person?

You have every right to date who you wish.

But here are some very simple numbers for you to consider. By all accounts it is now a ratio of 60/40 in favor of women completing college. So of the pool of available men, 60 out of 100 will not be college graduates. Of the remaining 40 men out of 100, how many will be born-again Bible believing Christians? Ten percent? So four out of a hundred men are potential mates for a girl who is committed too only marrying a believer.

Again, you have every right to reject all of the male species who are less educated and earn less money than you, that's your right as a human with a free will. But strictly from a logical standpoint, It is an incredibly stupid idea!

To the Boundless Editor, where is my post from last night?? Was I so sleepy it was incoherent?

[23. farmer Tom said the following at 12:12 PM on Sep 25:]

23

16. Saidah said,

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN

Like it or not, if you're looking for a husband, you might want to be less concerned with your career and more concerned with whether or not you have mommy-skills. The only guys you're likely to attract with your power act are guys looking for a sugar-momma or guys expecting you'll sign a pre-nup.

[24. BDB said the following at 12:20 PM on Sep 25:]

24

Leandra (#18) wrote:

>>@BDB: Wow--way to generalize about all women who work in sales, based on an overheard conversation. <<

Actually, I've spent 15 years working in sales environments around women like that. Many of them are extremely selfish and live to serve money.

I've also done some career counseling with some who weren't like that - who really wanted to find something that allowed them to take care of their kids on days they needed. They came to the realization that making their sales budget every year was not compatible with motherhood, so they were looking for a way out.

I will say that men who serve money have the same flaw. Most MBA-level jobs are crap - they pay quite well but require lots of travel and/or hours away from the family. I vividly remember conversations with some of my MBA professors who privately admitted how troubled they felt about their former students who achieved career success at the price of divorce.

Anyone who pours 100% of their talent into their career will have nothing left over for families or relationships at the end of the week. These "successful" women are discovering that. Men's ministries talk about this regularly - how critical it is to not give everything at work -- they must save something for home.

[25. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:21 PM on Sep 25:]

25

is it saying that women only dabble in successful careers when they have time to kill? if we got married earlier, we wouldn't have to bother with this whole messy empowerment thing?

Carissa...

Some women are doing exactly that...

I know the only reason why I'm working in the field I am is because I'm not living at home with mom & dad, I have studen loans to pay for that i used to get an AWESOME degree, and that I should use it while I'm waiting in the interim (i intend on using it to teach my kids later) and that I have bills to pay...

So I might as well use my combo degree in math and comp sci to WORK in an engineering firm...

If I work hard, I'll be successful, keep my job, get more pay raises, and pay off those loans faster...

Why is it so hard to believe that there's people out there who DO that?

[26. BDB said the following at 12:38 PM on Sep 25:]

26

There's something else that successful people do. They sometimes reduce their scope of activities to only those they are good at. For example, a woman good at business might refuse to every volunteer in children's ministry if she feels she's not an expert at it. I know women like this. They do the work hard/play hard thing; put in long hours at work and go drinking with the girls...but they don't invest in the lives of others in any significant way.

This is really a control thing. If they only spend their time in what they are experts in, they are always in control. If they refuse to get out of their box, then really they develop the attitude that they never need to compromise or share control.

[27. BDB said the following at 1:11 PM on Sep 25:]

27

Christina (in green)(#21) wrote:

>>Also, you want someone who challenges you and motivates you to do better...at least, that's what women want.

And guys? if what Saidah said is true, that guys want to be needed, <<

You know, you're reinforcing my perspective.

A couple of weeks ago, a teacher I know called me up with a small-business idea for me. She laid it all out, how it would work, how to make money from it, etc. This wasn't some home-based get-rich-quick scheme. It was something tailored specifically to my skills - a way to turn a hobby into a business. I was stunned that she'd through it through so carefully. It definitely challenged me to think outside the box and get out of my comfort zone. And by golly, she's probably right, it would work. I'm going to try it.

This same person asked for my help figuring out how to file estimated tax payments for a small business she started. I was happy to help. It's within my area of expertise.

So the question I'm left to ponder is - why does this happen with a teacher and never with any of the power chicks I've known?

[28. Lizzie said the following at 2:19 PM on Sep 25:]

28

Christina (#21) makes some good points, similar to what I was thinking: if a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, then it's likely she'll want a husband that can provide well for her and their family and sustain, if not improve, her current lifestyle.

"Marrying up" is something women have been seeking for centuries. It can almost become funny (as in Jane Austen novels). ;P

[29. Jo said the following at 2:55 PM on Sep 25:]

29

"Are they too busy, too picky or — horrors — too awesome?"

I'm too awesome. :P

[30. Patrick said the following at 3:41 PM on Sep 25:]

30

I've not yet read all the comments, but regarding the post I just wanted to say that it might cut both ways: sometimes success might be hindrance for some Christian guys, too.

For example, I have a sound evangelical Christian friend who is a bit older than I am (he's in his mid-30s). He has a good sense of humor, a good natured personality, and isn't socially awkward or bizarre or anything. On the contrary, he's pretty cool. He's also quite tall (6'). I'm obviously not a girl, but at least in my opinion, he could be described as pretty good looking, too. What's more, he has a PhD and was a professor but then gave it up to go into consulting where he makes six figures. He doesn't have any debt, he's financially secure, and in fact he's on his way towards early retirement by age 50 at this rate. He's well read and well rounded, too (e.g., he plays the piano).

Yet, for all this, you wouldn't believe how difficult it's been for him to find a Christian wife! He's gotten several dates but many seem to end up breaking it off with him rather than getting more serious. He mainly dates women in their late 20s and early to mid 30s. He's dated a couple of women older than him, too, and even one with a child, whom he wanted to propose to but sadly she decided to end it. I suppose he's almost too good to be true, in a way, but you'd think he'd be able to at least have someone serious in his life at this point? The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's true, success might be a hindrance for him?

At the same time, although I'm not by any means as "successful" as he is, I have the same problem. I'm an evangelical Christian and would definitely be committed to loving and leading a family. And I think I have a good personality and a good sense of humor, too (although I may be too zany sometimes! Just kidding). I have a good job working in IT/computers, make a good living, and am financially secure -- at least for a single guy. And I don't think I'm hideous looking or anything, but I think I'm at least average looking. However, I am planning to go to med school next year, so that might be a problem as far as financial security is concerned. I haven't dated or pursued as many women as my friend has tried to do, but I have pursued a couple (in their mid 20s). Yet, just like my friend, it seems like I have a hard time finding a godly woman who is serious about marriage, too.

[31. Rebekah said the following at 4:00 PM on Sep 25:]

31

To obewan.

I'm a medical student. I'm going to be a surgeon...a feild where women make quite a bit of money, but for a doctor - male or female - to have a successful practice they must make sacrifices. That being said, I for one, am not really looking to marry another doctor. Rather I'd like to meet and marry some man, who is okay with me being the primary wage earner in the family. I'd like to marry some man who would be willing to stay at home with our kids until they're all in school. That just means, that he'll be in a different filed that mine...some might say a "lesser" filed...I say different. One that allows for a more flexible schedule, or more flexibility in getting back in the work game. So don't be discouraged by the woman online. Shoot her an email, get to know her, ask yourself if you're willing to make the sacrifice of moving, changing jobs and what ever else to make a relationship with her work. She's just like any other woman.

[32. S said the following at 4:03 PM on Sep 25:]

32

#23- I'd love for you to tell all my successful friends' husbands that they went looking for a pre-nup signing sugar-momma. How ignorant of a comment.

[33. Lynn said the following at 4:07 PM on Sep 25:]

33

Just a few thoughts:
1.The book Reforming Marriage by Douglas Wilson (one that seems consistent with Boundless doctrine) makes a great point about women and marriage that relates quite well to this post. The excerpt below is from p. 37 in the chapter Headship and Authority.

"To say a husband should be the leader of his wife is not to say that any and every man is capable of being a spiritual leader, provider, comforter, and protector to any and every woman...

A godly woman is therefore going to limit her range of options. If she understands the Bible, she knows that she was created to be dependent and responsive to a man. Now the more God has done for her, and given to her, the more selective she must be. The more a woman excels, the more selective she must be (emphasis added). Some intelligent women have been tempted to play the dunce in order to get a man. This is not right; God has created her to be a help to a particular man, and her abilities are something he needs – whether or not any other men need them (emphasis added). A godly woman should not lower her standards; marrying a man who does not have the intellectual or spiritual strength to be the leader of the home is just asking for trouble (emphasis added). Abigail did not go well with Nabal."

2. Many men (especially the smart ones) recognize that an educated, accomplished, incredibly successful wife is an ASSET rather than a rival (see King David & Abigail, see the "Proverbs 31 woman's" husband, see Bob Dole, Barack Obama, Will Smith etc.). The problem is that society is producing more Abigails, Libby Doles and Michelle Obamas than King Davids, Bobs and Baracks. "Power chicks" aren't neessarily wrong to be selective -- but we've got to get real about why were raising fewer and fewer "power men" to be their husbands.

3. As much as people like to avoid admitting this, differences in salary, education, and career paths often equal differences in values, goals, and culture/lifestyle. Moreover, many educated, "successful" women who hold out for someone with comparable achievements are wisely seeking compatibility (see point #1), rather than simply a spouse with a fat wallet.

4. Too many men often make (inaccurate) assumptions about what "successful" women want. I (a woman) have a PhD, a great career as a professor and a comfortable 6-figure salary. I've met many people who assume that I don't want a family. Yet anyone who takes the time to talk to me knows that I chose this career rather than remain in corporate America precisely because my current job is more amenable to having an active church life and God-willing, a family. Moreover, if I will need to stay home with children in the future, I will be happy to do so -- and I have made life choices that will make it easy for me to do so.

[34. DannieA said the following at 4:14 PM on Sep 25:]

34

I still have a huge problem with the fact that "successful" is equaled to the following:

sales and business

[35. Eliza said the following at 4:21 PM on Sep 25:]

35

Why do I feel like whatever family/career decisions I make, I'm going to be criticized severely by one group or another? Can't we just accept that people do things differently and what's right for them may not be best for you or me?

[36. DannieA said the following at 4:27 PM on Sep 25:]

36

BDB

Because successful people DON'T automatically equal salespeople, wall street, or business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[37. Joseph Abraham said the following at 4:47 PM on Sep 25:]

37

In my opinion the typical career women just usually are routinized in their daily life and in their social life and never really break out and meet men who are out of their daily sphere or just someone new. I work in the corporate world with alot of career oriented women and they are just way too busy for me. If its not something work related its their fast paced social life or whatever other activity they have. They just don't make the time to invest in new relationships that could lead to marriage.

[38. vjd said the following at 5:32 PM on Sep 25:]

38

I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title

That statement is a prime example of the problem. Ever heard the song, "You're So Vain"? Has it ever entered your mind that maybe they aren't intimidated at all, they simply reject your "success" as a determining factor of human worth. Maybe they are looking for a traditional wife, not a career woman.

Farmer Tom, I think I have tangled with you before on this website. I don't know if I just write in a way that you completely misunderstand, or if you just like to play devil's advocate!

I have plenty of mommy-skills, home-building skills, cooking/cleaning/nurturing skills. My (stay-at-home) mother taught me how to cook, clean, sew, crochet, bake, care for a home, etc. When my relationship in my early 20s ended in a break up instead of an engagement and marriage and no other prospects were around, I turned to a career to wait. I'm good at what I do. I also would quit my job TODAY if the right man proposed marriage and asked me to do just that.

I'm a staff accountant for a defense contractor. Before that, I was a jr. project manager for a telecommunications firm. Most men my age are already married. The few that aren't married are very insecure. I will not play the "dumb blonde" just to get a husband, because I just can't. I can't keep up the "damsel in distress" mode for very long and most guys see right through it anyways. The men in their late 20s who can't manage to commit to a church, can't keep their pants zipped, or can't hold a decent conversation are not the type of men I'm looking for...unfortunately for me, they're the ones that come hanging around. It's as if they're the ones looking for me to support THEM, and that's not the way it is going to go.

I recently met/connected with a man who is a teacher and athletic coach. He's several years younger than me, and probably makes half of what I do, but he's smart and funny and is someone I can actually respect.

That's what most of us women want. We want men who we can respect. If a man can be confident enough to earn my respect, that goes a long way. I don't care that I'm older and make more money...I care that he's responsible and mature and absolutely loves what he does for a living.

[39. Ashley said the following at 7:31 PM on Sep 25:]

39

This article is frustrating on so many levels to women. Why should we want to achieve when statistically it will lead us to a lifetime of loneliness that we weren't created for? Are we not Biblically commanded to excel in all things? Why should we try? Why should we bother, when excelling gets us labeled as Gold Diggers, Money-Obsessed, Picky? Should we stymie our personal growth, so that Men can catch up to us and surpass us, or should we run hard to win the prize?

How frustratingly sexist to imply that hard working women care only for money and not for the "really important" things like character, strength and humility! Success and character are frequently (though not always) tied together. These commendable character qualities are often the qualities of leaders and high achievers.

Perhaps, perhaps the excellence of women in the workplace should encourage Men to be stimulated to make more of themselves rather than timidly claiming that such women are "intimidating" and choosing more 'traditional' less 'threatening' mates.

Be a man. Choose a woman that challenges you and makes you a better person. Not just someone who makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

[40. Bertha said the following at 7:57 PM on Sep 25:]

40

Regarding #16: how about dad-skills? Is a guy willing to change a diaper or comfort a crying baby? Does he even like kids? Maybe that doesn't matter to everyone, but it matters to some.

[41. J said the following at 8:17 PM on Sep 25:]

41

RJW (19) said:
"I think women are more likely to be comfortable with marrying a man who is more intelligent than themselves."

I don't know if that's always true. My ideal would be a man whose intelligence is equal to mine, but not necessarily in the same areas. We need to have enough to talk about so we don't bore each other, but it's nice when our strengths and talents complement each other, rather than being redundant.

This was the case with my former boyfriend. My GPA and test scores were higher than his, though he's definitely an intelligent guy. I couldn't really tell you which of us is "smarter." He joked about it some, but neither of us really cared. He was still able to take care of me because he knew a lot of things I didn't know and had skills I was lacking. Each of us was able to benefit the other with our own abilities.

[42. Josh said the following at 8:48 PM on Sep 25:]

42

If you love someone, care for them, and focus on the lord; things such money, status, and a career shouldn't matter.
It's rather sad that people will limit themselves to objects and things that all pass away in the end. You may judge someone's worth here on earth, but you too, shall be judged.

No wonder society is the way it is.

[43. Rachael said the following at 9:41 PM on Sep 25:]

43

Spinning off the issue of the intellect raised in comments 10 & 19 and character issue raised in comment 17...

I agree that character is important, no matter what the intellectual capacity or lack thereof.

And in my opinion it can be good to relax on the 'what's really important' quality 'list' one may once have had in mind. Suppose this often happens with people who end up with people they wouldn't have (at one point in time) imagined being with.

The intellect isn't everything at all, but at the same time, I bet it can often enhance the chemistry/compatibility.

And there are different types of intelligence. Somehow my boyfriend thinks/thought I'm intelligent, but that might be because of my tendency to think deeply/analytically and because of the education/experience I've had. Though that makes me feel good, I KNOW that I am not smart in many ways. To some degree, intelligence is relative. So if intelligence or depth is important to a couple, as long the couple is satisfied with each other's level of depth, that's all that matters. Though deep conversations absolutely aren't everything, I'm very glad I can have them with my boyfriend. It doesn't take intelligence to be deep. As comment 10 mentioned, there are more important characteristics than intelligence. Love is the most important thing and so many things stem from that.

But still I think it's okay to hope for someone who is not necessarily on an entirely different intellectual/depth plane in every regard. Probably almost no (Christian) adult is absolutely 100% shallow, though, even if they come across that way in public.

[44. whs said the following at 9:44 PM on Sep 25:]

44

I have found that the stone I most often trip on regarding highly educated women is not intellect but arrogance.

[45. chickenscratch said the following at 10:14 PM on Sep 25:]

45

The article MSN wrote kind of offended me. I see a lot of woman thinking this to be true. a lot of single woman, but those of us who dont match up to that worldly success (which yea those woman have worked thier tales off for and completely deserve) and are still single I ask you where does that put us? We are waiting for the best too. I'm sure my grammer is wrong and you can tell I am not a successful woman. I tried college, I truely did really hard and it is not for everyone. I see this as a let down on those of us Christian woman that love the lord and are not successful, yet still single. I am confident trust me its just a drag that i am constantly hearing success is the reason for singleness. So what is the reason for mine? Think about that for a while.

[46. E Louise! said the following at 10:34 PM on Sep 25:]

46

Khalil I agree. You have a right not to settle if that is what you need.

Most female species always seek out the alpha male. As a woman it's natural to want a man who will be a good provider. There is nothing wrong with that. Especially if you are already well off financially. If I'm taking time off from my well paying career to have children and raise our family, I'd like to rest assured my spouse is able to handle things financially.

That being said, women should stop acting as if success is a curse. You serve the God who created the universe...do you really believe there is not one saved, intelligent, educated, successful male out there for you? If every guy you met had a bible, an Ivy League education, and a six figure income, you would probably end up with the wrong one. Just trust God and his timing. I know it's hard...especially when you are successful, but you have to give up control.

[47. Eliana said the following at 3:03 AM on Sep 26:]

47

I kind of have a different take on this issue. I'm wondering if it doesn't have to do with women perhaps favoring security more than men do? For example, I am a doctoral candidate in a non-medical profession in my late 20's, who hopes to graduate before she hits 30. For me, a career is much less confusing and more stable than the process of finding a spouse is. In my academic career, if I do X, Y, and Z, then I can plan on certain results, within reasonable limits, of course. But in dating, I might do X, Y, Z, and still feel like I have no idea of my odds of success.

It's as if I'm constantly guessing in the dating realm, whereas my academic studies up to now have offered a much more concrete path. If a girl studies a lot, she gets an A. If she studies a little, she gets a C. Obviously, academic consequences are not always this clear-cut, but let's consider the alternative in dating. If a girl goes out with guy #1, who agrees on religion and has similar education and interests, a personality clash might still ruin it. Guy #2 might seem consistently interested and share the same faith, but has regular huge arguments over relatively small value judgements. And so on and so forth. There is no rulebook to follow that will allow you to predict certain outcomes with accuracy.

Therefore, since perhaps women are looking for stability and a comfort zone, would it help explain why they turn to careers more than to men? Is fear of the unkown part of the factor?

For the comment which was questioning how women end up in this career track, let me offer my story. I entered college with a plan to earn enough education to carry me through life in either of the following outcomes:

A. Marriage. Even though I planned to be a stay-at-home mom if I married, one never knows when death or diability might strike one's husband. In that case, I would be primary breadwinner for myself, and my children. And even if I never ended up needing to be the primary breadwinner, I would want to help the family by working once my children were grown.

B. Singleness. If I ended up unmarried, either by chance or choice, I would be able to support myself and help my parents in their old age.

In either path I took, because of my education, I would also be able to work in a field which suited my talents and interests.

So I went to college, planning to attend all the way through a doctoral degree, since I had researched my field, and knew that I would need a degree of that level to be able to support a family if needed. If I had met someone along the way and gotten married, then I may or may not have finished my doctorate if I decided to have children in my mid-20's. But I did know I wanted at least a Bachelor's degree, partly for personal fulfillment because I loved my field of study, partly because it was study which could be useful for church ministry, and partly because college graduates have a much easier time on the job market.

Yet since I have not met anyone yet, and I am beginning my tenth year in academia, it very much makes sense for me to finish and move on with my career, since I enjoy my work, and what am I supposed to be doing instead?

Career women don't always have a definite plan to end up as career women.

[48. Louise, 42 said the following at 5:52 AM on Sep 26:]

48

Comment 27, why wouldn't this happen with a teacher?

Everyone out there has something they can share with/teach other people, not just "power chicks", or "power dudes" for that matter!

[49. obewan said the following at 7:00 AM on Sep 26:]

49

Christian wrote:

">>So I might as well use my combo degree in math and comp sci to WORK in an engineering firm...<<"
-------------------------------------
Most engineering firms use prepackaged software to do their heavy math now.

If I were you, I would look hard for a software position at one of the big CAD or Stress Analysis software producers. You would be a shoe in with your double degrees.

[50. Amy said the following at 9:09 AM on Sep 26:]

50

As a newlywed (approaching 2 years) successful woman who makes almost twice as much money as my teacher husband, I feel a certain understanding in this article. We didn't meet each other until we were in our late twenties so I was already moving on my career while he was starting over in career #2. I have found that what works for us is that although I make more money, I give my husband primary ownership on how it is dispersed. He's a saver, I'm a spender, so this is wiser for our family also. I also try to think and speak of money as OUR money, not mine/your.

This has worked for us so far. I just pray that the Lord will keep me humble as our life progresses.

[51. Suzanne said the following at 10:05 AM on Sep 26:]

51

DannieA: In response to your question, I'm certainly not equating "success" in this column to a six-figure salary. The article itself may have been because the writer was a business woman. I am speaking more to what you talk about; accomplished in her field. Regardless of her salary, if a woman is established in her work and steadily rising, this may put her in the category I'm describing.

Carissa (#20): I think you were reading it right, although you bring up a good point. I was saying that even if a woman would PREFER a traditional, in-the-home role, she may not be able to avoid a season in the workforce. However, I'm not denying that there are women who are driven to succeed in a career. They just need to find the balance between success in work and success in marriage in family.

[52. S said the following at 11:11 AM on Sep 26:]

52

#37 - Talk about making generalizations.

You are right, they probably aren't the women for you. You couldn't handle them.

[53. a sassy sister said the following at 11:30 AM on Sep 26:]

53

I think it all boils down to one thing: What do you believe to be success? What is the world system's standard of success and what does God say success is, and does that definition of success(from God's Word) look exactly the same for everyone's life?

If it is, then would someone please show me by chapter and verse what success is?

[54. BDB said the following at 11:57 AM on Sep 26:]

54

DannieA (#36) wrote:

>>Because successful people DON'T automatically equal salespeople, wall street, or business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<

But that's the kind of women they interviewed for the article.

Allow me to contrast. My sister is a Doctor of Audiology. Long after she was married, she told me that she chose the field because it was compatible with motherhood. She can use her scientific mind and work part-time. The whole field is full of part-time doctors who are also moms. Job-sharing is very common.

But she's not a "power chick." She finished her doctorate before she became a mom. She built motherhood into her career plan from the beginning. It was a priority.

I know lots and lots of career women who are "power chicks." They're very proud of their career success. They have powerful personalities. And they are far, far less intentional when it comes to motherhood and family life.

Men are subject to the same criticism. Most men's ministries I've been a part of hit really hard on how wrong it is to give 100% of one's time and energy to career advancement. These men get divorced. There's nothing left over at the end of the week to invest in the lives of others.

Elisabeth Elliot's The Mark of a Man has several chapters on how men need to take responsibility for the whole initiation thing and their children. But she also had something to say about women's careers. Keep in mind that this is a woman who has published 28 books - by any standard she is successful. I'll admit that I choked on this passage when I first read it it about what to look for in a wife:

Now for the question of career. Take a hard look at this one. Any woman you consider for a wife ought to be willing to put her husband and her children first: above her own interests, including a career. This is simply common sense. If she considers a career as important as, or more important than, marriage, don't marry her. That sounds pretty dogmatic, I know; but believe me, trying to mix marriage and a career can be difficult enough. Trying to mix child rearing and a career is impossible. That is not the same as saying that a woman who finds herself suddenly single through widowhood or divorce cannot possibly work to support her children. Hordes of women must and do. But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody. There is nothing of God in that wish. Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family. To seek other avenues, because the home does not seem to be enough or because other avenues look more interesting and promising, is a mistake. If in her mind is the thought of rights--"I have as much right as any man to hold a job"--you are in for trouble. Watch out for the woman who talks of rights!

[55. BDB said the following at 1:00 PM on Sep 26:]

55

Louise, 42 (#48) wrote:

>>Comment 27, why wouldn't this happen with a teacher?<<

It DID happen with a teacher.

I would have expected a "power chick" to come up with something like this. But no, it was a teacher...

[56. Louise said the following at 1:31 PM on Sep 26:]

56

Comment 55,

I KNOW this incident happened with a teacher.

I did read your comment 27!

:)

The point I was expressing was along the lines of "Why would one be surprised that this incident would happen with a teacher?"

[57. RJW said the following at 1:45 PM on Sep 26:]

57

Like all things, you can't evaluate a person on ONE particular aspect if their lives.

I think, more important than intelligence or career success is a total comittment to family and to Jesus- obviously a sense of humour and some wit might come in handy for conversations together, but that aint necessarily vital.

Jesus' bride did not, and does not have a conglomerate alphabet after her name.

So I think I've come to the conlusion now that to make MARRIAGE a success, there has to be the comittment to make it work, as Boundless has discussd up hill and down dale.

I think when a man and a woman are joined through matrimony, they become one and together become a microcosm of Jesus' bride in general (the church and all Christians), and therefore what matters is that the MARRIAGE is a success, which means a completely new dimension is graded on success and failure, and the old ones of a man and woman's career becomes almost obsolete.

[58. DannieA said the following at 2:14 PM on Sep 26:]

58

I firmly believe that as long as one's character is intact and values family...she can be highly successful in her chosen field and be an excellent asset to a guy.

Any guy that gets intimidated by the above statement may need to mature and get mentored!

[59. Lynn said the following at 4:05 PM on Sep 26:]

59

Patrick (Comment #30)
Where does your friend live? I'll take him!!!

[60. Lynn said the following at 4:47 PM on Sep 26:]

60

BDB, #54

Of course, Elisabeth Elliot is an icon. However, the excerpt you included, particularly the portion below, as well as most people's perceptions of career women omit two important factors.

"But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody."

First, we ignore the different seasons of a woman's life. For most women, childrearing does not encompass an entire lifespan. Why shouldn't a woman develop and exercise her talents, gifts and interests through career pursuits in her "off" seasons (either before the children come, or after they're of age and need her less).

Second, when judging women, we have to be careful about imputing motives. Why do people believe that women pursue careers just to prove what they can do, or to compete with men. If those are indeed any woman's motivations, then I feel sorry for her because that would make for a pretty empty life. These are not the motives of the women I know.

Third, "careers" today can take so many forms. The audiologist you describe is the perfect example.

More than anything, I just want people to be more informed about "sucessful" and/or "career" or even "power" women. Instead of judging from afar, have a conversation with a few. They're human, and what they have to say might surprise you.

[61. BDB said the following at 2:19 PM on Sep 27:]

61

S (#52) wrote:

>>You are right, they probably aren't the women for you. You couldn't handle them.<<

The selfish ones or the ones who came to me because they realized sales was incompatible with motherhood?

It was ironic when I found myself the lone defender of their compensation plan in budget meetings...

In Advertising sales, there are lots of people with egos the size of small countries. But they don't last long. Usually by the 3rd year their budget is so challenging that they fail and have to go start over somewhere else.

It's a mistake to confuse cyclical success with steady success. A lot of recent real estate professionals are feeling that right now. Three years ago, they were pretty darn cocky about how "successful" they were. They're a lot more respectful after they've lost a few jobs. Probably why sales people in their 50's are so much more respectful than those in their 20's with their first taste of success.

Outside of sales, particularly in fields that aren't cash compensation driven, successful people are a lot less arrogant. I note that the article wasn't quoting any hospice case managers talking about how men were intimidated by them. There's lots of fields where people successful in their field don't develop the arrogance that they never need to listen to anyone else.

Frankly, part of my thinking on this issue is being shaped by the women I serve with on a charity's board. They are quite bright; some are far wealthier than I expect to be. But their success is not the least bit intimidating. They are civic minded and see that they've been blessed, and therefore have an obligation to be a blessing to others. This civic-minded attitude is missing from many who are outwardly 'successful.'

[62. Petrov said the following at 2:23 PM on Sep 27:]

62

Folks... don't forget that divorce is very high in the United States. Statistically, women are far more likely to initiate the divorce than men these days.

Given this and the fact that many young men are growing up in families without a dad, I can see how the boys are not eager to sign the marriage contract.

Maybe men aren't intimidated... maybe they are finding marriage, as an institution, to be lacking...

[63. farmer Tom said the following at 7:56 PM on Sep 27:]

63

But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody. There is nothing of God in that wish. Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family. To seek other avenues, because the home does not seem to be enough or because other avenues look more interesting and promising, is a mistake. If in her mind is the thought of rights--"I have as much right as any man to hold a job"--you are in for trouble. Watch out for the woman who talks of rights!

Now that is some good stuff, there is a Godly woman who understands the enticing allure of the feminist dogma, ie (that a woman can do it all) and has the intestinal fortitude to say. It's a lie from the pit of hell!!

Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow.

And I want to highlight this sentence,

Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family.

Ladies, God called women to be wives and mother first. If you think that there are eternal rewards for "serving humanity" while ignoring the eternal rewards for a Godly wife and mother, well, good luck.

Maybe you ought to do a little Bible study on what kind of things are going to be rewarded in heaven.

[64. S said the following at 7:46 AM on Sep 28:]

64

#55 -

DBD- Why can't a teacher be a "power chick"? Is that not a career that you find as "powerful" as one in corporate America? How demeaning to all of the teachers out there.

[65. BDB said the following at 1:52 PM on Sep 29:]

65

S (#64) wrote:

>>Why can't a teacher be a "power chick"? Is that not a career that you find as "powerful" as one in corporate America? How demeaning to all of the teachers out there. <<

Louise (#56) wrote:

>>The point I was expressing was along the lines of "Why would one be surprised that this incident would happen with a teacher?"<<

Hmmm...OK, let me try to explain in another way.

In my case, this business idea was presented by an elementary school teacher who is a little younger than me. That's why I was so surprised. And impressed.

In my case, I'm defining as "power chicks" those who complete their master's degree or higher and go full-bore on their career. These are the women who brag to me after their pay breaks $100,000/year. This includes most of the female MBA's I've known.

But they are not kind people. In fact, none of the women I've known like that have ever challenged me to grow in my walk with Christ. Typically they apply pressure to buy a new car, try a new alcoholic beverage, go on a cruise...all things driven by a consumer culture.

The "power chicks" I know tend to be unkind - even merciless to those who stand in their way. They're usually smarter than average, and use that as an excuse to shout down anyone to opposes them. Men can do this, too. But that type of behavior tends to be rewarded more in a business sales environment, at least in the short term. Until compensation gets to high and the cut the territory of the person.

The article in question focused on hard-charging business women. The telling paragraph is the woman who "refused to compromise." Well, talk to anyone who's been sucessfully married for 20 years and ask them if "refusing to compromise" is an effective strategy.

Most of the successful teachers I know learned to be kind and encouraging along the way. They do not ridicule others when they stumble. If they do that to a child, the child will never again trust them. I've seen lots of "successful" busines people ridicule others who fail or make a mistake. Not a good way to build a team. But an elementary teacher will be lucky to break $50,000/year, depending on whether she works another job during the summer off.

There was a story told about Thomas Edison. One of the light bulbs they made took 24 hours to prepare. He handed it to one of the workshop boys to take to the next step. The boy dropped it and it shattered. They had to work another 24 hours to make another one. Edison looked around and gave the new bulb to the same boy to carry. He didn't drop it this time. If nothing else, Edison understood little boys.

[66. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:24 PM on Sep 29:]

66

S in #64 -

Why are you insulted by what BDB said?

Clearly, he meant it as a compliment...

Anyway, "Power Chick" and "Successful" are being used (in this post) to describe people who are more interested in Career at all costs, are after enough money to support a luxurious life style, and are the "go-get-em" types that end up being VPs and CEOs of major corporations by the time they are 35.

Yes, there are "successful" women who DO NOT DO THAT and success can be measured by more than just one yard stick - and money isn't always the best one to use. Which would make the women claiming that point to be the "successful" women that most men would actually want and respect.

Teachers are NOT described as Power Chicks, because (in case you haven't noticed) teaching DOES NOT bring a lot of reward to it in the worldly sense of the word. It doesn't pay well, it doesn't offer a lot in lieu of advancement, and its often a highly disrespected job (if only by the ones you are teaching...)

Teachers are the "successful" people who don't use the normal yard sticks to measure success. And they are not the ones being considered in this post.

[67. BDB said the following at 2:25 PM on Sep 29:]

67

Lynn (#60) wrote:

>>Why shouldn't a woman develop and exercise her talents, gifts and interests through career pursuits in her "off" seasons (either before the children come, or after they're of age and need her less).<<

I don't think either I or EE said this. The way she phrases it is the most challenging. She sees wife & mother a being the most important role, everything else is secondary. And she's published 28 books - making her one of the most successful authors of all time. But she sees that as secondary.

The problem, for both men and women, is when they make career the #1 idol in their life. When people pour 100% of their talent into their career, they will be more successful at work than those who put 60% into their career, 20% into civic/church volunteer work, and 20% into their family. But I argue that the latter mix is a much better way to live life. You give up some work-related success, but get a lot more back.

One big advantage is that when you lose your job, your entire life doesn't crumble. I believe that captures the spirit of Luke 16:9:

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammom, that when you fail, they receive you into an everlasting home.

Let me be clear - men who pour 100% of their leadership skills into their work get divorced. There's nothing left over for home. The women in the article sound like they are doing the same thing - pouring all their talent into work. That leaves nothing left over for anything else.

If you read biographies of people who stay married, they always have some kind of section about how their spouse supported and encouraged them. People who focus all their energy on work don't do this. They're too busy. They have nothing to give. They are not paying close enough attention to be able to give specific encouragement when someone falters. Worse, if they've bought into the world's idea of success, they will pull back from anyone who stumbles career-wise.

On the nonprofit board I'm on there's a woman who is married to the Chairman of a majore publicly traded company. As far as I can tell, she doesn't work. But she has the mind of an executive. She invests a lot of time in their various charitable giving initiatives. they recently gave more than $150,000 to a local Adventist children's hospital.

Even though she isn't "working," she's clearly achieving her potential. I totally see why he married her after his first wife died. She's very committed to improving the lives of others and she gets quite a bit done.

Personally, I'm very pro education. But I'm much more impressed by the woman who becomes a doctor to use her earnings to do medical outreach on missions trips. I'm much less impressed with the person who does it to buy multiple luxury cars and get prestige. I know both kinds. Their education and skills translate into equal "success." But there's a huge difference in their heart. I know a couple who are both doctors and they're now in a developing nation running a children's hospital. They need a comparable level of education to understand the contribution they are making.

I really do think that everone ought to think through how they can invest in the lives of others. It's also a good idea to be able to identify WHAT someone is good at, even if it doesn't fall into the definition of "career success."

[68. vjd said the following at 5:58 PM on Sep 29:]

68

Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow. Farmer Tom in #63.

Wait just a minute! I thought the MEN were supposed to do the pursuing. If I'm supposed to chase the guy down all of a sudden....well, that changes things! But then again, that puts me as the one in charge; and as we've argued to death on other posts, men are supposed to initiate and women are supposed to respond.

[69. EM said the following at 8:23 PM on Sep 29:]

69

Hey, gals -- I have an idea. Why don't you take up knitting and stay at home until your knight in shining armor comes to care you away to the little house with a picket fence. You can read Elsie Dinsmore stories or Stepping Heavenward while you are waiting for him to notice you across the room at a single's meeting or church dinner. He'll work from 8-6 and you'll have a nice little dinner on the table and give him a peck on the cheek when he comes home. And of course you will have 4 or 5 wonderful children. He'll make all the major decisions and delegate to you all the ones that aren't worth his time and trouble. You'll respect him because he brings home the bacon and he'll love you because you cook it for him. He'll drive the family SUV to church on Sunday and you'll drive the kiddos to boy scouts and soccer. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

What? You want something more? A life partner who respects you? Someone who shares your faith & politics (at least mostly) and with whom you can have a decent conversation? You want him to respect you too? How arrogant and presumptuous of you! Don't you know you are supposed to be the dainty flower and he your gardener and protector? You want him to be a committed husband and father -- but also someone whose company you will enjoy long after the kids are gone? You want to be his strong helper, friend and companion? What sort of feminist nonsense is this?

After all, read the church fathers and Dr. Ware - you aren't his equal and were never meant to be - you were designed to wash his socks and make doctor's appointments and keep his home clean and kozy. No, that doesn't work for you? It isn't enough? Not what you had in mind for your marriage? Maybe you should rethink your priorities, huh? You'll be single for the rest of your life with that kind of attitude.

----

Of course, I'm being a bit sarcastic but some commenters here are not. I want to marry an equal myself. Someone different but equal. A degree isn't everything. Income isn't everything. Intellect isn't everything (but it does matter). Looks certainly aren't everything. Faith matters a lot and so does character. Personality does matter but I can see myself with a somewhat mature person of several personality types. I'm intimidated by very few people and not generally attracted to people who are intimidated by me. But, hey, I'll give you a chance - whoever you are - if you want a marriage that is Christian partnership.

[70. Rachael said the following at 8:45 PM on Sep 29:]

70

re: the idea that has come up regarding women in "serving humanity" type of professions

-->I think we need to be careful in casting judgment on types of professions people choose and the attitudes they might hold in choosing them.

At the same time, it would do all of us (both male/female) well to realize that 'serving humanity' can be done in both the simple and 'noble' ways. God can work through highly esteemed service jobs/missionary positions. And He can work wonders through the mundane.

As for women with the demanding jobs that impact people on a more obvious level, power to them! Doesn't mean they'll be in those jobs even if they have kids. And if they do? Let the husband and her work it out; there just might be a really really cool Christian nanny or daycare provider that would lavish love on the child.

I guess, ultimately God is in control. Yes we still do things against his revealed will in Scripture. But there is room for some variation in the way people live.

Even if things seem 'holy' to us, it doesn't always mean they are. We should remember that and strive for an open, gentle spirit (myself included) with regard to gray areas.

[71. Ashley said the following at 9:27 AM on Sep 30:]

71

farmerTom (63)

This statement makes your Elisabeth Elliot post look very, very cherrypicked:

"Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow."

Elisabeth Elliot would disapprove. Not only should the man do the pursuing -- something stated very very very clearly in ALL her writings on the topic, but also in her writings, she acknowledges that there may be cause for a single woman or a widow to have a skill set to support herself. She states that this is not the optimal situation, but it is one that must be addressed, nonetheless. Further, as I discussed this topic with some people I know, over and over they referenced the entrepreneurial activities of the Proverbs 31 woman. It doesn't sound like she sat around at home twiddling her thumbs and putting dinner on the table to me...

[72. BDB said the following at 4:26 PM on Sep 30:]

72

Let me say something else positive about the Boundlessline posters. It was in reading the comments that I realized something was missing with the "power chicks." Those focused solely on their careers pretty much never consider the possibility that God may have a calling - they sneer at the idea. The ones I've know also invested little, if any, effort understanding their Bible or any other Christian reading. They were firmly embedded in the consumer culture.

Many of the commenters here have a Biblical knowledge that is much deeper. It's quite refreshing, really. But it also made it clear that these "power chicks", though they considered themselves Christians, weren't interested in living out their faith at all.

How people spend their time and money says a lot about their character.

I can't find the cite, but I once read an article that broke down divorce rates by job title. Cops were about 80%, teachers 20%. I once asked a cop why it was so high. His impression was that guys got a good-paying job, then immediately bought a bunch of toys (big truck, boat, etc.) and then had to work tons of overtime to pay the bills. Others might point to the tendency of available women to hit on cops.

Then think of the contrast: teachers have all the holidays off, plus three months a year, perhaps in the summer. That provides LOTS of time to do projects that stack up around home, go on mission trips, or anything else that makes one happy. Contrast that with business executives who end up taking zero time off because they don't feel like they can afford to.

Lots of time available vs. zero time available. Which is more appealing?

[73. S said the following at 4:53 PM on Sep 30:]

73

#66-

I'm insulted, because so many of the comments on this site are vast sweeping generalizations. "Successful" women do this... single women do this ... married women do that... single men did this... married men did that ... etc.

Why is it that people are sterotyped or put into buckets in these message boards? There are as many personalities as there are people in the world. Is it so hard to believe that not all single women or all successful women or all fill-in-the-blank share the same opinions or outlook?

[74. BDB said the following at 8:57 PM on Sep 30:]

74

S (#73) wrote:

>>Is it so hard to believe that not all single women or all successful women or all fill-in-the-blank share the same opinions or outlook?<<

For my part, I hope that over time it is apparent that I see the same choice as having similar consequences for both men and women. We all reap what we sow.

In terms of attitude towards career, in person I could name five women with advanced degrees who are adamant that motherhood should be placed above career. I know an equal number of women who place career first. We could go through the results of their choices. I'm not comfortable naming names on the Internet.

Admittedly, I'm dealing with a sample size of less than 200. It's not a scientific analysis. But then again, someone who dated 200 people would be called a player, not a scientist...

[75. kaj said the following at 9:22 PM on Sep 30:]

75

BDB (#72):

I appreciate your affirmation of the "commenters here [which] have a Biblical knowledge that is much deeper."

However, based on the experience of friends and family who are teachers, those in the education sector may not necessarily have the copious amounts of time you mention.

The work does not end when the closing school bell rings. Teachers "work overtime" to grade papers, change out bulletin boards, meet with parents, and attend staff meetings.

Teachers (especially in smaller Christian schools) often chaperone after-school activities, such as athletics or yearbook. Most activities also require participating in fund-raising events. The smaller the staff, the more hats teachers will have to wear.

Holidays off may be spent catching up on lesson plans, grading more papers, and other obligatory paperwork.

Yes, there are "summers off" for teachers in the US and Canada. But teachers still have to to fulfill "continuing education" requirements (read: summer school) to renew teaching licenses. In-services held prior to first day of school also cut into summer vacation. I would also be remiss to not mention shopping for the classroom (often paid for out of the teachers' own meager paychecks!).

Furthermore, every so many years, many teachers have to prepare for school accreditation reviews. This requires more paperwork and reports added to the "regular" school year work.

For teachers who actually care about their students' academic, social, physical, and spiritual growth, they may measure "success" in ways not as easy to define as, say, profit margins or market share. And teachers' overtime hours reap far less pay than overtime-working CEOs.

[76. BDB said the following at 4:09 PM on Oct 1:]

76

Kaj (#75) wrote:

>>The work does not end when the closing school bell rings. Teachers "work overtime" to grade papers, change out bulletin boards, meet with parents, and attend staff meetings.<<

I note for the record that I did not say teachers worked fewer hours per day. All those things - like grading homework - do make the days during the school year just as long as days at the office.

But the 2-3 months per year with no class really does make a difference. To avoid burnout, most business people need to take time to "sharpen the saw," also. Continuing education is required for engineers, architects, lawyers and CPAs, too. But they don't have 2-3 months/year built in and available for that.

Think of it this way: 12 hours/day for 9 months a year, or 12 hours/day for 12 months a year.

[77. Lisa said the following at 9:17 PM on Oct 3:]

77

Farmer Tom is breath of fresh air! Come on ladies, what he is saying is absolutely true and you and I know it!!!!! We women have castrated men for too long and we are paying a huge price. Look at our boys, they don't even know what real manhood is! We have worked on men for so long, multigenerationally, they can't even see feminism for what is anymore. We have led them into our realm calling it Christian liberty. I agree with Farmer Tom, I say hogwash to you ladies who do not take our highest calling found Titus 2:5 seriously! Do you think you know better than God? Who are you serving? You serve yourself and that is the truth!!! You pick and choose scripture as you want. I am with you Brother Tom, you are a resounding voice in a very dark world. Come on men, don't be afraid of stepping on our toes. God's truth is what we need, rise up and be real men! We need to hear God's truth not more men who have been indoctrinated by women who want to make you feminine, to justify their rebellion against Gods word!

[1. BDB said the following at 4:01 PM on Sep 24:]

1

The OP wrote:

>>Conversely a woman may feel pressure to choose a partner who is even more successful than herself — an expectation that may eliminate potentially great matches.<<

Early in my career, sitting behind the walls of my cubicle, I overheard a number of conversations of women in the office along these lines. More specifically, because they were in sales, they stated emphatically how they would never consider a man who made less money than them.

At the time, I made less than they did - I was fresh out of college. Eventually I finished graduate school and passed them. But I definitely keep in mind that women in sales are primarily motivated by money.

I'll be honest with you: if I meet a sales person and a teacher at an event, I'm going to talk to the teacher more. Unless it's a charity event where the sales person is a major donor, and she brought her married sister, the teacher.

[2. VJD said the following at 4:32 PM on Sep 24:]

2

Amen! I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title. I finally met someone who is confident enough to see past my title. He just happened to be a few years younger than me, which in my early 20s was a deal-breaker. We all have little hurdles we need to jump over as we get older. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm anxious to see the comments from some of the guys out there...

[3. CG said the following at 5:04 PM on Sep 24:]

3

I like this post. As someone who has been relatively successful academically, it's frustrating to me when a guy acts like I'm way too smart for him. Most guys don't act that way, but it definitely seems a deterrent.
However, I'm not going to "dumb myself down" just to find a mate. I'm sure there is a guy out there I can be an intellectual equal with, even if we have totally different academic backgrounds. :)

[4. BDB said the following at 5:08 PM on Sep 24:]

4

I think that the article presents a false choice. It's not that men want to make ALL the decisions. Anyone who does that will eventually burn out and/or have a resentful person blow up eventually. A bigger issue is people who refuse to listen, and refuse to consider other perspectives.

It happens in management, too. Entrepreneurs who fail to consider other perspectives often go bankrupt - they refuse to listen to the unhappy customer. Just this morning I read a chapter in one of Harvey Mackay's books where he points out that the most successful business people listen to their wife's perspective.

My grandparents are both extremely capable. At 92 my grandfather still reads The Economist and we had quite a chat about this financial debacle. What they did was divide up the world - each of them controls half the world. Each of them is the final decision-maker in certain areas. And they're careful to observe the boundaries and not try to undermine their authority. This sometimes leads to power-struggles, such as when my grandmother wanted to spend $20,000 putting a sun room onto their apartment in the retirement home. The impasse lasted until she agreed that my grandfather could get a new used car for $20,000. I think it's kind of funny, but it's also clear that they're making decisions together; neither one is in charge 100% of the time.

I do know a number of outwardly successful women who categorically refuse to let anyone else influence their decision-making in any area. They react with extreme hostility to any suggested change in course.

Sometimes the issue is squarely within my area of expertise, and she's clearly going to fail if she follows her present course...I mean, why would I want to tie my fate to someone who won't listen to me even when I'm literally an expert? It's really not attractive.

[5. Farmer Pete said the following at 5:34 PM on Sep 24:]

5

May I suggest that it is not talent or work ethic that is off-putting about women who are highly succesful careers.

(1) The commitment to a career that is required for success leaves less room for commitment to husband, family and home. Men have to deal with this conflict all the time, which is - perhaps - why we recognise it and consider that having two such conflicted people in a marraige is a little too much.

(2) The competetive drive required to be successful in a career is not attractive when it has the potential to be applied in a marraige relationship. For those of us who take the husband's leadership role seriously, having to compete with our wife for that function is not a pleasant prospect.

Bear in mind that when making an initial assessment of a potential relationship, we have no crystal ball with which to see the future, so we look for attitude indicators. The attitudes required for success in business or career dop not always translate well into marraige.

We want a "helpmeet", not a rival.

Peter

[6. Esther said the following at 7:37 PM on Sep 24:]

6

Just connecting this to an earlier blog post... these "power chicks" may also find that the men with the $ already have wives and families that are motivating them to succeed.

As I get older, and more successful in my career, this has started to pop up on my radar. There just aren't all that many great men of faith who are educated, attractive, successful AND single. For most guys of this category, if marriage and family are priorities, they've already gotten that straightened out. Still, encouragement is out there. My cousin just announced his engagement to a wonderful Christian woman, and they are both in their 30's. She's Filipino, so in a sense he had to search halfway around the world, but they seem perfect for each other, after both had wondered if marriage would ever happen for them.

[7. Jade said the following at 8:02 PM on Sep 24:]

7

The timing of this article really strikes me as quite ironic as I was offered a huge promotion (in responsibility, not pay) at work this past week and start my new job tomorrow. I've been thinking a lot about how having a successful career, as a female, might impact my relationship with my husband. We work in similar fields so sometimes it is easy to feel like we are competing. I really enjoy what I do, and I am generally successful. I realize I could, if I want to, have a terrific career. My husband is supportive of me, however we know we want to have children sooner rather than later so I will probably give up my career in a couple more years to be a SAHM. Yeah, it stings a little to think of giving up all the respect and deferance I could earn if I stick with my career, but I want to be at home. As I have said before, I am so blessed to have found husband early in life, especially one who supports me and my dreams. I think at this point in my life, if I was single it would be incredibly hard to find a mate and probably wouldn't happen.

[8. khalil said the following at 8:11 PM on Sep 24:]

8

Perhaps it is just me, but why wouldn't I want to date/marry a successful person? Some people need to get over their issues and just deal with life and their baggage. I would be concerned if myself (or a friend) were dating "below" me and going after someone unsuccessful.

Success comes from the Lord, and the world's definition of it is vastly different from God's. AMEN!!! I love that statement.

[9. cn said the following at 8:30 PM on Sep 24:]

9

This is one area where boundless really helped me. As most firstborns go, I'm an achiever... motivated to do my best. This motivation landed me acceptance into one of the top ranked graduate architecture schools in America, and has carried me all over the world. So how does a driven woman find marriage? For one, Candice recommends talking about wanting to get married, so I tried it out. I made it clear to him that marriage and family was a greater dream than a career in architecture. Three months later we became engaged and I really do think that clarity in the beginning helped progress things.

On one hand, its about looking at the right character traits when finding a mate. On the other, its about being approachable yourself.

[10. John the Aggie said the following at 11:20 PM on Sep 24:]

10

Right on. As someone who easily succeeds in the academic world my priorities were warped for a while. I thought any girl I would consider dating would have at least a 3.5 college GPA and be able to hold highly philosophical conversations with me...

As I've grown I realized that, while such qualities are good to have, they are largely irrelevant. There are much more important characteristics to look for ("If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love...")

[11. Brad said the following at 3:25 AM on Sep 25:]

11

I presently work as a golf course attendant making a pretty low hourly wage (single digit dollars per hour). I have a college degree and I certainly do not expect this to be a career, but it is the job I have right now after several early-career letdowns. In my singles class most of the women have much better jobs than myself where they probably make 2 or 3 times as much per year, not to mention that their jobs have a much higher reputation. Yes, it is a bit intimidating but even more than that comes the prejudice that all women want to "marry up".

It does seem like women still want to attract a man who will bring them into a higher socioeconomic status than the one in which they currently live, and it makes it hard for us men who presently have humble jobs who want to marry; especially when the women in our circle of friends live at a much higher status during the same stage of life.

[12. Akofa said the following at 5:04 AM on Sep 25:]

12

I beg to differ, Suzanne. I don't see how 'success' can be a hinderance to marriage.

In my opinion, it's the high & mighty attitude that people get when they are 'successful' that hinders their prospects of getting married. It's possible to be 'successful' and humble.

Besides, people define 'success' differently. The kind of 'success' you're talking about is limited to career and workplace... life is more than that kind of 'success.'

[13. Cliff said the following at 8:07 AM on Sep 25:]

13

I am a 28 yr old male and I can see that success can be hindrance to marriage for both guys and girls.

As I am reading this post, I wonder if I have the courage to let go of the worldly definition of success and focus on relationship.

And by this can be of subtle difference. For example, not working over time (at the expense of a promotion) to spend more time with family.

[14. obewan said the following at 8:23 AM on Sep 25:]

14

Doesn't it really depend on how high the woman's position is?

I am all for women having careers, and I am most attracted to women with great jobs and good educations. But, there are limits.

For example, our company president was a single woman with an MIT engineering degree and a Harvard MBA. She sacrificed into her 40's to get where she is. She probably has a multi-million dollar salary as the CEO of a top fortune 500 aerospace firm. We all wondered how or if she would ever find a match considering her age and position. She recently did, and is having her first baby in a few months. She still has the high position. We are wondering if she found a similar match.

In my case, there is a cute doctor my own age on one of the Christian singles sites. What scares me is that her income is probably several hundred thousand dollars over my meager Sr. Engineer’s salary. So far, I have not contacted her. Even if it did work out, it might mean I would be forced to leave the job I love to move to be near her well-established practice. Plus, would she even be willing to consider someone with a lower position than doctors?

[15. Sheri said the following at 9:19 AM on Sep 25:]

15

"I would be concerned if myself (or a friend) were dating "below" me and going after someone unsuccessful."

That's what I think too. Most of the men that have been turned off by my success were lazy. So I think that any man worth while would be attracted to me because of my ambition. It means I have what it takes to run a home and not give up on him or life in general when life gets tough, not that I would try to compete with him. I think men with this idea are insecure, and would make bad partners anyway.

[16. Saidah said the following at 9:22 AM on Sep 25:]

16

Okay, I don't think the point is so much that guys are intimidated by success (and yes, I know from experience that some definitely are). But think about what the article said;

"It's not that men still don't believe women are equally capable, they just have a hard time visualizing their role in a relationship when the woman outranks them on all the measures they use to gauge their own success"

Like it or not, people want to know where they're needed. Especially men. So if you're superwoman, and you can pay your own bills, hold your job, and fight your own fights, what the heck is he supposed to do? Sorry, but guys looking for wives (whether they'll admit or not) are looking for women who look like great moms. Not great dads. So while you're out flaunting "anything you can do, I can do better," they're wondering, "uh, yah, but can you make a house homey? do you drive kids to soccer practice? do you have time for kids period?"

Like it or not, if you're looking for a husband, you might want to be less concerned with your career and more concerned with whether or not you have mommy-skills. The only guys you're likely to attract with your power act are guys looking for a sugar-momma or guys expecting you'll sign a pre-nup.

[17. DannieA said the following at 9:36 AM on Sep 25:]

17

Ok so the article and comments confuse me.

So what does it mean to have a "successful career"? are you only talking about jobs that gain money and over 100K? or are you talking about top people in your field...whatever that may be.

I consider myself to be successful and to be in the top of my field even though I'm a speech therapist working in the lowly school district and do not make over 100K a year.

I get myself educated on all the relevent information on Autism, Language disorders, augmentative communication, research based practices and best practices.....I feel I have a good professional opinion and practice that is highly regarded by my bosses at the Special Education office (yeah why else do they give me the pleasure of assessing and working with kids whose parents want to sue the school district so the parents will be happy with the speech services...gag....)
yet some comments give me the impression that because I work in the schools that basically I'm not a successful career woman. Let me tell you, I know some personality types that I work with that would have the same personality and "I'm always right attitude and not listening to anyone else" whether they work in the schools or in sales, or in corporate office.
If a woman has character, whether she is a CEO, lawyer, salesperson, teacher, speech therapist, physical therapist etc. it will shine through. If a woman has a sour character it will also shine through no matter what job.

[18. Leeandra said the following at 9:58 AM on Sep 25:]

18

@BDB: Wow--way to generalize about all women who work in sales, based on an overheard conversation.

I'm saying this as an ex-teacher who now works in sales...

[19. RJW said the following at 10:33 AM on Sep 25:]

19

I think it really depends on whether the man is intelligent, and has the capability to be successful too. I'm no genius, but I'm no dunce either, and therefore I find women who have a similar level of intelligence, if not a higher one more attractive then ones who lack such a gift.

I think men like to pursue a woman with whom they won't be intimidated by- especially if they are fairly passive intellectually, although actually actively seeking women less intelligent than themselves so they won't be intimated is fairly self-refuting and certainly demonstrates some assertiveness!

I think women are more likely to be comfortable with marrying a man who is more intelligent than themselves.

But lastly, I think you can't lump 'success' into one big bag. I'd much rather marry a woman who had made a success of her life (who was a strong Christian etc.), than one who was 'successful', as this implies narcisism and self orientation around self-made goals. Subtle difference, but one nonetheless relevant, I think.

[20. carissa said the following at 11:02 AM on Sep 25:]

20

i liked this article's main underlying point, which seemed to be that a person's success and capabilities - one's resume, i guess - don't change the roles God has for us in marriage. a man is still called to love, lead, and provide no matter how high his education or salary is, and a woman is still called to respect, submit, and support likewise.

i did find this section to be odd: 'But with the average marrying age hovering in the late 20s, women now have some gap years where they must figure out how to pay the bills. And if they happen to succeed in their chosen professions, they may be perceived by men as "power chicks."'

was that serious? is it saying that women only dabble in successful careers when they have time to kill? if we got married earlier, we wouldn't have to bother with this whole messy empowerment thing? that's what it seems to be conveying, but maybe i'm reading it wrong.

[21. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:54 AM on Sep 25:]

21

@Leeandra (#18)

/giggle

...Oh the Irony...

I didn't much like the over-generalization, either...

I wonder, though, if the woman is looking for someone who can support her CURRENT lifestyle if she were to stay home with kids than for someone to IMPROVE her lifestyle.

Also, you want someone who challenges you and motivates you to do better...at least, that's what women want.

And guys? if what Saidah said is true, that guys want to be needed, than it goes to show that girls are gonna look UP and guys are gonna look DOWN.

Why does it have to be a sexist thing, a money-mongering thing, or anything negative?

Why can't it just be our "natural" tendencies - men want to protect, women want a safe and stable environment to raise a family in...

[22. farmer Tom said the following at 12:08 PM on Sep 25:]

22

I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title

That statement is a prime example of the problem. Ever heard the song, "You're So Vain"? Has it ever entered your mind that maybe they aren't intimidated at all, they simply reject your "success" as a determining factor of human worth. Maybe they are looking for a traditional wife, not a career woman.

Perhaps it is just me, but why wouldn't I want to date/marry a successful person?

You have every right to date who you wish.

But here are some very simple numbers for you to consider. By all accounts it is now a ratio of 60/40 in favor of women completing college. So of the pool of available men, 60 out of 100 will not be college graduates. Of the remaining 40 men out of 100, how many will be born-again Bible believing Christians? Ten percent? So four out of a hundred men are potential mates for a girl who is committed too only marrying a believer.

Again, you have every right to reject all of the male species who are less educated and earn less money than you, that's your right as a human with a free will. But strictly from a logical standpoint, It is an incredibly stupid idea!

To the Boundless Editor, where is my post from last night?? Was I so sleepy it was incoherent?

[23. farmer Tom said the following at 12:12 PM on Sep 25:]

23

16. Saidah said,

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN

Like it or not, if you're looking for a husband, you might want to be less concerned with your career and more concerned with whether or not you have mommy-skills. The only guys you're likely to attract with your power act are guys looking for a sugar-momma or guys expecting you'll sign a pre-nup.

[24. BDB said the following at 12:20 PM on Sep 25:]

24

Leandra (#18) wrote:

>>@BDB: Wow--way to generalize about all women who work in sales, based on an overheard conversation. <<

Actually, I've spent 15 years working in sales environments around women like that. Many of them are extremely selfish and live to serve money.

I've also done some career counseling with some who weren't like that - who really wanted to find something that allowed them to take care of their kids on days they needed. They came to the realization that making their sales budget every year was not compatible with motherhood, so they were looking for a way out.

I will say that men who serve money have the same flaw. Most MBA-level jobs are crap - they pay quite well but require lots of travel and/or hours away from the family. I vividly remember conversations with some of my MBA professors who privately admitted how troubled they felt about their former students who achieved career success at the price of divorce.

Anyone who pours 100% of their talent into their career will have nothing left over for families or relationships at the end of the week. These "successful" women are discovering that. Men's ministries talk about this regularly - how critical it is to not give everything at work -- they must save something for home.

[25. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:21 PM on Sep 25:]

25

is it saying that women only dabble in successful careers when they have time to kill? if we got married earlier, we wouldn't have to bother with this whole messy empowerment thing?

Carissa...

Some women are doing exactly that...

I know the only reason why I'm working in the field I am is because I'm not living at home with mom & dad, I have studen loans to pay for that i used to get an AWESOME degree, and that I should use it while I'm waiting in the interim (i intend on using it to teach my kids later) and that I have bills to pay...

So I might as well use my combo degree in math and comp sci to WORK in an engineering firm...

If I work hard, I'll be successful, keep my job, get more pay raises, and pay off those loans faster...

Why is it so hard to believe that there's people out there who DO that?

[26. BDB said the following at 12:38 PM on Sep 25:]

26

There's something else that successful people do. They sometimes reduce their scope of activities to only those they are good at. For example, a woman good at business might refuse to every volunteer in children's ministry if she feels she's not an expert at it. I know women like this. They do the work hard/play hard thing; put in long hours at work and go drinking with the girls...but they don't invest in the lives of others in any significant way.

This is really a control thing. If they only spend their time in what they are experts in, they are always in control. If they refuse to get out of their box, then really they develop the attitude that they never need to compromise or share control.

[27. BDB said the following at 1:11 PM on Sep 25:]

27

Christina (in green)(#21) wrote:

>>Also, you want someone who challenges you and motivates you to do better...at least, that's what women want.

And guys? if what Saidah said is true, that guys want to be needed, <<

You know, you're reinforcing my perspective.

A couple of weeks ago, a teacher I know called me up with a small-business idea for me. She laid it all out, how it would work, how to make money from it, etc. This wasn't some home-based get-rich-quick scheme. It was something tailored specifically to my skills - a way to turn a hobby into a business. I was stunned that she'd through it through so carefully. It definitely challenged me to think outside the box and get out of my comfort zone. And by golly, she's probably right, it would work. I'm going to try it.

This same person asked for my help figuring out how to file estimated tax payments for a small business she started. I was happy to help. It's within my area of expertise.

So the question I'm left to ponder is - why does this happen with a teacher and never with any of the power chicks I've known?

[28. Lizzie said the following at 2:19 PM on Sep 25:]

28

Christina (#21) makes some good points, similar to what I was thinking: if a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, then it's likely she'll want a husband that can provide well for her and their family and sustain, if not improve, her current lifestyle.

"Marrying up" is something women have been seeking for centuries. It can almost become funny (as in Jane Austen novels). ;P

[29. Jo said the following at 2:55 PM on Sep 25:]

29

"Are they too busy, too picky or — horrors — too awesome?"

I'm too awesome. :P

[30. Patrick said the following at 3:41 PM on Sep 25:]

30

I've not yet read all the comments, but regarding the post I just wanted to say that it might cut both ways: sometimes success might be hindrance for some Christian guys, too.

For example, I have a sound evangelical Christian friend who is a bit older than I am (he's in his mid-30s). He has a good sense of humor, a good natured personality, and isn't socially awkward or bizarre or anything. On the contrary, he's pretty cool. He's also quite tall (6'). I'm obviously not a girl, but at least in my opinion, he could be described as pretty good looking, too. What's more, he has a PhD and was a professor but then gave it up to go into consulting where he makes six figures. He doesn't have any debt, he's financially secure, and in fact he's on his way towards early retirement by age 50 at this rate. He's well read and well rounded, too (e.g., he plays the piano).

Yet, for all this, you wouldn't believe how difficult it's been for him to find a Christian wife! He's gotten several dates but many seem to end up breaking it off with him rather than getting more serious. He mainly dates women in their late 20s and early to mid 30s. He's dated a couple of women older than him, too, and even one with a child, whom he wanted to propose to but sadly she decided to end it. I suppose he's almost too good to be true, in a way, but you'd think he'd be able to at least have someone serious in his life at this point? The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's true, success might be a hindrance for him?

At the same time, although I'm not by any means as "successful" as he is, I have the same problem. I'm an evangelical Christian and would definitely be committed to loving and leading a family. And I think I have a good personality and a good sense of humor, too (although I may be too zany sometimes! Just kidding). I have a good job working in IT/computers, make a good living, and am financially secure -- at least for a single guy. And I don't think I'm hideous looking or anything, but I think I'm at least average looking. However, I am planning to go to med school next year, so that might be a problem as far as financial security is concerned. I haven't dated or pursued as many women as my friend has tried to do, but I have pursued a couple (in their mid 20s). Yet, just like my friend, it seems like I have a hard time finding a godly woman who is serious about marriage, too.

[31. Rebekah said the following at 4:00 PM on Sep 25:]

31

To obewan.

I'm a medical student. I'm going to be a surgeon...a feild where women make quite a bit of money, but for a doctor - male or female - to have a successful practice they must make sacrifices. That being said, I for one, am not really looking to marry another doctor. Rather I'd like to meet and marry some man, who is okay with me being the primary wage earner in the family. I'd like to marry some man who would be willing to stay at home with our kids until they're all in school. That just means, that he'll be in a different filed that mine...some might say a "lesser" filed...I say different. One that allows for a more flexible schedule, or more flexibility in getting back in the work game. So don't be discouraged by the woman online. Shoot her an email, get to know her, ask yourself if you're willing to make the sacrifice of moving, changing jobs and what ever else to make a relationship with her work. She's just like any other woman.

[32. S said the following at 4:03 PM on Sep 25:]

32

#23- I'd love for you to tell all my successful friends' husbands that they went looking for a pre-nup signing sugar-momma. How ignorant of a comment.

[33. Lynn said the following at 4:07 PM on Sep 25:]

33

Just a few thoughts:
1.The book Reforming Marriage by Douglas Wilson (one that seems consistent with Boundless doctrine) makes a great point about women and marriage that relates quite well to this post. The excerpt below is from p. 37 in the chapter Headship and Authority.

"To say a husband should be the leader of his wife is not to say that any and every man is capable of being a spiritual leader, provider, comforter, and protector to any and every woman...

A godly woman is therefore going to limit her range of options. If she understands the Bible, she knows that she was created to be dependent and responsive to a man. Now the more God has done for her, and given to her, the more selective she must be. The more a woman excels, the more selective she must be (emphasis added). Some intelligent women have been tempted to play the dunce in order to get a man. This is not right; God has created her to be a help to a particular man, and her abilities are something he needs – whether or not any other men need them (emphasis added). A godly woman should not lower her standards; marrying a man who does not have the intellectual or spiritual strength to be the leader of the home is just asking for trouble (emphasis added). Abigail did not go well with Nabal."

2. Many men (especially the smart ones) recognize that an educated, accomplished, incredibly successful wife is an ASSET rather than a rival (see King David & Abigail, see the "Proverbs 31 woman's" husband, see Bob Dole, Barack Obama, Will Smith etc.). The problem is that society is producing more Abigails, Libby Doles and Michelle Obamas than King Davids, Bobs and Baracks. "Power chicks" aren't neessarily wrong to be selective -- but we've got to get real about why were raising fewer and fewer "power men" to be their husbands.

3. As much as people like to avoid admitting this, differences in salary, education, and career paths often equal differences in values, goals, and culture/lifestyle. Moreover, many educated, "successful" women who hold out for someone with comparable achievements are wisely seeking compatibility (see point #1), rather than simply a spouse with a fat wallet.

4. Too many men often make (inaccurate) assumptions about what "successful" women want. I (a woman) have a PhD, a great career as a professor and a comfortable 6-figure salary. I've met many people who assume that I don't want a family. Yet anyone who takes the time to talk to me knows that I chose this career rather than remain in corporate America precisely because my current job is more amenable to having an active church life and God-willing, a family. Moreover, if I will need to stay home with children in the future, I will be happy to do so -- and I have made life choices that will make it easy for me to do so.

[34. DannieA said the following at 4:14 PM on Sep 25:]

34

I still have a huge problem with the fact that "successful" is equaled to the following:

sales and business

[35. Eliza said the following at 4:21 PM on Sep 25:]

35

Why do I feel like whatever family/career decisions I make, I'm going to be criticized severely by one group or another? Can't we just accept that people do things differently and what's right for them may not be best for you or me?

[36. DannieA said the following at 4:27 PM on Sep 25:]

36

BDB

Because successful people DON'T automatically equal salespeople, wall street, or business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[37. Joseph Abraham said the following at 4:47 PM on Sep 25:]

37

In my opinion the typical career women just usually are routinized in their daily life and in their social life and never really break out and meet men who are out of their daily sphere or just someone new. I work in the corporate world with alot of career oriented women and they are just way too busy for me. If its not something work related its their fast paced social life or whatever other activity they have. They just don't make the time to invest in new relationships that could lead to marriage.

[38. vjd said the following at 5:32 PM on Sep 25:]

38

I've had more than my fair share of guys who are intimidated by my intellect and job title

That statement is a prime example of the problem. Ever heard the song, "You're So Vain"? Has it ever entered your mind that maybe they aren't intimidated at all, they simply reject your "success" as a determining factor of human worth. Maybe they are looking for a traditional wife, not a career woman.

Farmer Tom, I think I have tangled with you before on this website. I don't know if I just write in a way that you completely misunderstand, or if you just like to play devil's advocate!

I have plenty of mommy-skills, home-building skills, cooking/cleaning/nurturing skills. My (stay-at-home) mother taught me how to cook, clean, sew, crochet, bake, care for a home, etc. When my relationship in my early 20s ended in a break up instead of an engagement and marriage and no other prospects were around, I turned to a career to wait. I'm good at what I do. I also would quit my job TODAY if the right man proposed marriage and asked me to do just that.

I'm a staff accountant for a defense contractor. Before that, I was a jr. project manager for a telecommunications firm. Most men my age are already married. The few that aren't married are very insecure. I will not play the "dumb blonde" just to get a husband, because I just can't. I can't keep up the "damsel in distress" mode for very long and most guys see right through it anyways. The men in their late 20s who can't manage to commit to a church, can't keep their pants zipped, or can't hold a decent conversation are not the type of men I'm looking for...unfortunately for me, they're the ones that come hanging around. It's as if they're the ones looking for me to support THEM, and that's not the way it is going to go.

I recently met/connected with a man who is a teacher and athletic coach. He's several years younger than me, and probably makes half of what I do, but he's smart and funny and is someone I can actually respect.

That's what most of us women want. We want men who we can respect. If a man can be confident enough to earn my respect, that goes a long way. I don't care that I'm older and make more money...I care that he's responsible and mature and absolutely loves what he does for a living.

[39. Ashley said the following at 7:31 PM on Sep 25:]

39

This article is frustrating on so many levels to women. Why should we want to achieve when statistically it will lead us to a lifetime of loneliness that we weren't created for? Are we not Biblically commanded to excel in all things? Why should we try? Why should we bother, when excelling gets us labeled as Gold Diggers, Money-Obsessed, Picky? Should we stymie our personal growth, so that Men can catch up to us and surpass us, or should we run hard to win the prize?

How frustratingly sexist to imply that hard working women care only for money and not for the "really important" things like character, strength and humility! Success and character are frequently (though not always) tied together. These commendable character qualities are often the qualities of leaders and high achievers.

Perhaps, perhaps the excellence of women in the workplace should encourage Men to be stimulated to make more of themselves rather than timidly claiming that such women are "intimidating" and choosing more 'traditional' less 'threatening' mates.

Be a man. Choose a woman that challenges you and makes you a better person. Not just someone who makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

[40. Bertha said the following at 7:57 PM on Sep 25:]

40

Regarding #16: how about dad-skills? Is a guy willing to change a diaper or comfort a crying baby? Does he even like kids? Maybe that doesn't matter to everyone, but it matters to some.

[41. J said the following at 8:17 PM on Sep 25:]

41

RJW (19) said:
"I think women are more likely to be comfortable with marrying a man who is more intelligent than themselves."

I don't know if that's always true. My ideal would be a man whose intelligence is equal to mine, but not necessarily in the same areas. We need to have enough to talk about so we don't bore each other, but it's nice when our strengths and talents complement each other, rather than being redundant.

This was the case with my former boyfriend. My GPA and test scores were higher than his, though he's definitely an intelligent guy. I couldn't really tell you which of us is "smarter." He joked about it some, but neither of us really cared. He was still able to take care of me because he knew a lot of things I didn't know and had skills I was lacking. Each of us was able to benefit the other with our own abilities.

[42. Josh said the following at 8:48 PM on Sep 25:]

42

If you love someone, care for them, and focus on the lord; things such money, status, and a career shouldn't matter.
It's rather sad that people will limit themselves to objects and things that all pass away in the end. You may judge someone's worth here on earth, but you too, shall be judged.

No wonder society is the way it is.

[43. Rachael said the following at 9:41 PM on Sep 25:]

43

Spinning off the issue of the intellect raised in comments 10 & 19 and character issue raised in comment 17...

I agree that character is important, no matter what the intellectual capacity or lack thereof.

And in my opinion it can be good to relax on the 'what's really important' quality 'list' one may once have had in mind. Suppose this often happens with people who end up with people they wouldn't have (at one point in time) imagined being with.

The intellect isn't everything at all, but at the same time, I bet it can often enhance the chemistry/compatibility.

And there are different types of intelligence. Somehow my boyfriend thinks/thought I'm intelligent, but that might be because of my tendency to think deeply/analytically and because of the education/experience I've had. Though that makes me feel good, I KNOW that I am not smart in many ways. To some degree, intelligence is relative. So if intelligence or depth is important to a couple, as long the couple is satisfied with each other's level of depth, that's all that matters. Though deep conversations absolutely aren't everything, I'm very glad I can have them with my boyfriend. It doesn't take intelligence to be deep. As comment 10 mentioned, there are more important characteristics than intelligence. Love is the most important thing and so many things stem from that.

But still I think it's okay to hope for someone who is not necessarily on an entirely different intellectual/depth plane in every regard. Probably almost no (Christian) adult is absolutely 100% shallow, though, even if they come across that way in public.

[44. whs said the following at 9:44 PM on Sep 25:]

44

I have found that the stone I most often trip on regarding highly educated women is not intellect but arrogance.

[45. chickenscratch said the following at 10:14 PM on Sep 25:]

45

The article MSN wrote kind of offended me. I see a lot of woman thinking this to be true. a lot of single woman, but those of us who dont match up to that worldly success (which yea those woman have worked thier tales off for and completely deserve) and are still single I ask you where does that put us? We are waiting for the best too. I'm sure my grammer is wrong and you can tell I am not a successful woman. I tried college, I truely did really hard and it is not for everyone. I see this as a let down on those of us Christian woman that love the lord and are not successful, yet still single. I am confident trust me its just a drag that i am constantly hearing success is the reason for singleness. So what is the reason for mine? Think about that for a while.

[46. E Louise! said the following at 10:34 PM on Sep 25:]

46

Khalil I agree. You have a right not to settle if that is what you need.

Most female species always seek out the alpha male. As a woman it's natural to want a man who will be a good provider. There is nothing wrong with that. Especially if you are already well off financially. If I'm taking time off from my well paying career to have children and raise our family, I'd like to rest assured my spouse is able to handle things financially.

That being said, women should stop acting as if success is a curse. You serve the God who created the universe...do you really believe there is not one saved, intelligent, educated, successful male out there for you? If every guy you met had a bible, an Ivy League education, and a six figure income, you would probably end up with the wrong one. Just trust God and his timing. I know it's hard...especially when you are successful, but you have to give up control.

[47. Eliana said the following at 3:03 AM on Sep 26:]

47

I kind of have a different take on this issue. I'm wondering if it doesn't have to do with women perhaps favoring security more than men do? For example, I am a doctoral candidate in a non-medical profession in my late 20's, who hopes to graduate before she hits 30. For me, a career is much less confusing and more stable than the process of finding a spouse is. In my academic career, if I do X, Y, and Z, then I can plan on certain results, within reasonable limits, of course. But in dating, I might do X, Y, Z, and still feel like I have no idea of my odds of success.

It's as if I'm constantly guessing in the dating realm, whereas my academic studies up to now have offered a much more concrete path. If a girl studies a lot, she gets an A. If she studies a little, she gets a C. Obviously, academic consequences are not always this clear-cut, but let's consider the alternative in dating. If a girl goes out with guy #1, who agrees on religion and has similar education and interests, a personality clash might still ruin it. Guy #2 might seem consistently interested and share the same faith, but has regular huge arguments over relatively small value judgements. And so on and so forth. There is no rulebook to follow that will allow you to predict certain outcomes with accuracy.

Therefore, since perhaps women are looking for stability and a comfort zone, would it help explain why they turn to careers more than to men? Is fear of the unkown part of the factor?

For the comment which was questioning how women end up in this career track, let me offer my story. I entered college with a plan to earn enough education to carry me through life in either of the following outcomes:

A. Marriage. Even though I planned to be a stay-at-home mom if I married, one never knows when death or diability might strike one's husband. In that case, I would be primary breadwinner for myself, and my children. And even if I never ended up needing to be the primary breadwinner, I would want to help the family by working once my children were grown.

B. Singleness. If I ended up unmarried, either by chance or choice, I would be able to support myself and help my parents in their old age.

In either path I took, because of my education, I would also be able to work in a field which suited my talents and interests.

So I went to college, planning to attend all the way through a doctoral degree, since I had researched my field, and knew that I would need a degree of that level to be able to support a family if needed. If I had met someone along the way and gotten married, then I may or may not have finished my doctorate if I decided to have children in my mid-20's. But I did know I wanted at least a Bachelor's degree, partly for personal fulfillment because I loved my field of study, partly because it was study which could be useful for church ministry, and partly because college graduates have a much easier time on the job market.

Yet since I have not met anyone yet, and I am beginning my tenth year in academia, it very much makes sense for me to finish and move on with my career, since I enjoy my work, and what am I supposed to be doing instead?

Career women don't always have a definite plan to end up as career women.

[48. Louise, 42 said the following at 5:52 AM on Sep 26:]

48

Comment 27, why wouldn't this happen with a teacher?

Everyone out there has something they can share with/teach other people, not just "power chicks", or "power dudes" for that matter!

[49. obewan said the following at 7:00 AM on Sep 26:]

49

Christian wrote:

">>So I might as well use my combo degree in math and comp sci to WORK in an engineering firm...<<"
-------------------------------------
Most engineering firms use prepackaged software to do their heavy math now.

If I were you, I would look hard for a software position at one of the big CAD or Stress Analysis software producers. You would be a shoe in with your double degrees.

[50. Amy said the following at 9:09 AM on Sep 26:]

50

As a newlywed (approaching 2 years) successful woman who makes almost twice as much money as my teacher husband, I feel a certain understanding in this article. We didn't meet each other until we were in our late twenties so I was already moving on my career while he was starting over in career #2. I have found that what works for us is that although I make more money, I give my husband primary ownership on how it is dispersed. He's a saver, I'm a spender, so this is wiser for our family also. I also try to think and speak of money as OUR money, not mine/your.

This has worked for us so far. I just pray that the Lord will keep me humble as our life progresses.

[51. Suzanne said the following at 10:05 AM on Sep 26:]

51

DannieA: In response to your question, I'm certainly not equating "success" in this column to a six-figure salary. The article itself may have been because the writer was a business woman. I am speaking more to what you talk about; accomplished in her field. Regardless of her salary, if a woman is established in her work and steadily rising, this may put her in the category I'm describing.

Carissa (#20): I think you were reading it right, although you bring up a good point. I was saying that even if a woman would PREFER a traditional, in-the-home role, she may not be able to avoid a season in the workforce. However, I'm not denying that there are women who are driven to succeed in a career. They just need to find the balance between success in work and success in marriage in family.

[52. S said the following at 11:11 AM on Sep 26:]

52

#37 - Talk about making generalizations.

You are right, they probably aren't the women for you. You couldn't handle them.

[53. a sassy sister said the following at 11:30 AM on Sep 26:]

53

I think it all boils down to one thing: What do you believe to be success? What is the world system's standard of success and what does God say success is, and does that definition of success(from God's Word) look exactly the same for everyone's life?

If it is, then would someone please show me by chapter and verse what success is?

[54. BDB said the following at 11:57 AM on Sep 26:]

54

DannieA (#36) wrote:

>>Because successful people DON'T automatically equal salespeople, wall street, or business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<

But that's the kind of women they interviewed for the article.

Allow me to contrast. My sister is a Doctor of Audiology. Long after she was married, she told me that she chose the field because it was compatible with motherhood. She can use her scientific mind and work part-time. The whole field is full of part-time doctors who are also moms. Job-sharing is very common.

But she's not a "power chick." She finished her doctorate before she became a mom. She built motherhood into her career plan from the beginning. It was a priority.

I know lots and lots of career women who are "power chicks." They're very proud of their career success. They have powerful personalities. And they are far, far less intentional when it comes to motherhood and family life.

Men are subject to the same criticism. Most men's ministries I've been a part of hit really hard on how wrong it is to give 100% of one's time and energy to career advancement. These men get divorced. There's nothing left over at the end of the week to invest in the lives of others.

Elisabeth Elliot's The Mark of a Man has several chapters on how men need to take responsibility for the whole initiation thing and their children. But she also had something to say about women's careers. Keep in mind that this is a woman who has published 28 books - by any standard she is successful. I'll admit that I choked on this passage when I first read it it about what to look for in a wife:

Now for the question of career. Take a hard look at this one. Any woman you consider for a wife ought to be willing to put her husband and her children first: above her own interests, including a career. This is simply common sense. If she considers a career as important as, or more important than, marriage, don't marry her. That sounds pretty dogmatic, I know; but believe me, trying to mix marriage and a career can be difficult enough. Trying to mix child rearing and a career is impossible. That is not the same as saying that a woman who finds herself suddenly single through widowhood or divorce cannot possibly work to support her children. Hordes of women must and do. But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody. There is nothing of God in that wish. Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family. To seek other avenues, because the home does not seem to be enough or because other avenues look more interesting and promising, is a mistake. If in her mind is the thought of rights--"I have as much right as any man to hold a job"--you are in for trouble. Watch out for the woman who talks of rights!

[55. BDB said the following at 1:00 PM on Sep 26:]

55

Louise, 42 (#48) wrote:

>>Comment 27, why wouldn't this happen with a teacher?<<

It DID happen with a teacher.

I would have expected a "power chick" to come up with something like this. But no, it was a teacher...

[56. Louise said the following at 1:31 PM on Sep 26:]

56

Comment 55,

I KNOW this incident happened with a teacher.

I did read your comment 27!

:)

The point I was expressing was along the lines of "Why would one be surprised that this incident would happen with a teacher?"

[57. RJW said the following at 1:45 PM on Sep 26:]

57

Like all things, you can't evaluate a person on ONE particular aspect if their lives.

I think, more important than intelligence or career success is a total comittment to family and to Jesus- obviously a sense of humour and some wit might come in handy for conversations together, but that aint necessarily vital.

Jesus' bride did not, and does not have a conglomerate alphabet after her name.

So I think I've come to the conlusion now that to make MARRIAGE a success, there has to be the comittment to make it work, as Boundless has discussd up hill and down dale.

I think when a man and a woman are joined through matrimony, they become one and together become a microcosm of Jesus' bride in general (the church and all Christians), and therefore what matters is that the MARRIAGE is a success, which means a completely new dimension is graded on success and failure, and the old ones of a man and woman's career becomes almost obsolete.

[58. DannieA said the following at 2:14 PM on Sep 26:]

58

I firmly believe that as long as one's character is intact and values family...she can be highly successful in her chosen field and be an excellent asset to a guy.

Any guy that gets intimidated by the above statement may need to mature and get mentored!

[59. Lynn said the following at 4:05 PM on Sep 26:]

59

Patrick (Comment #30)
Where does your friend live? I'll take him!!!

[60. Lynn said the following at 4:47 PM on Sep 26:]

60

BDB, #54

Of course, Elisabeth Elliot is an icon. However, the excerpt you included, particularly the portion below, as well as most people's perceptions of career women omit two important factors.

"But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody."

First, we ignore the different seasons of a woman's life. For most women, childrearing does not encompass an entire lifespan. Why shouldn't a woman develop and exercise her talents, gifts and interests through career pursuits in her "off" seasons (either before the children come, or after they're of age and need her less).

Second, when judging women, we have to be careful about imputing motives. Why do people believe that women pursue careers just to prove what they can do, or to compete with men. If those are indeed any woman's motivations, then I feel sorry for her because that would make for a pretty empty life. These are not the motives of the women I know.

Third, "careers" today can take so many forms. The audiologist you describe is the perfect example.

More than anything, I just want people to be more informed about "sucessful" and/or "career" or even "power" women. Instead of judging from afar, have a conversation with a few. They're human, and what they have to say might surprise you.

[61. BDB said the following at 2:19 PM on Sep 27:]

61

S (#52) wrote:

>>You are right, they probably aren't the women for you. You couldn't handle them.<<

The selfish ones or the ones who came to me because they realized sales was incompatible with motherhood?

It was ironic when I found myself the lone defender of their compensation plan in budget meetings...

In Advertising sales, there are lots of people with egos the size of small countries. But they don't last long. Usually by the 3rd year their budget is so challenging that they fail and have to go start over somewhere else.

It's a mistake to confuse cyclical success with steady success. A lot of recent real estate professionals are feeling that right now. Three years ago, they were pretty darn cocky about how "successful" they were. They're a lot more respectful after they've lost a few jobs. Probably why sales people in their 50's are so much more respectful than those in their 20's with their first taste of success.

Outside of sales, particularly in fields that aren't cash compensation driven, successful people are a lot less arrogant. I note that the article wasn't quoting any hospice case managers talking about how men were intimidated by them. There's lots of fields where people successful in their field don't develop the arrogance that they never need to listen to anyone else.

Frankly, part of my thinking on this issue is being shaped by the women I serve with on a charity's board. They are quite bright; some are far wealthier than I expect to be. But their success is not the least bit intimidating. They are civic minded and see that they've been blessed, and therefore have an obligation to be a blessing to others. This civic-minded attitude is missing from many who are outwardly 'successful.'

[62. Petrov said the following at 2:23 PM on Sep 27:]

62

Folks... don't forget that divorce is very high in the United States. Statistically, women are far more likely to initiate the divorce than men these days.

Given this and the fact that many young men are growing up in families without a dad, I can see how the boys are not eager to sign the marriage contract.

Maybe men aren't intimidated... maybe they are finding marriage, as an institution, to be lacking...

[63. farmer Tom said the following at 7:56 PM on Sep 27:]

63

But the woman who dreams of doing both, seeing it as an ideal, is in for trouble. She probably cherishes ambitions for herself. She wants to prove that she can do it. She wants to show somebody. There is nothing of God in that wish. Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family. To seek other avenues, because the home does not seem to be enough or because other avenues look more interesting and promising, is a mistake. If in her mind is the thought of rights--"I have as much right as any man to hold a job"--you are in for trouble. Watch out for the woman who talks of rights!

Now that is some good stuff, there is a Godly woman who understands the enticing allure of the feminist dogma, ie (that a woman can do it all) and has the intestinal fortitude to say. It's a lie from the pit of hell!!

Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow.

And I want to highlight this sentence,

Often she feels that she must "serve humanity" by being a doctor or a lawyer or an executive, forgetting that there is no greater service to humanity than the rearing of a Christian family.

Ladies, God called women to be wives and mother first. If you think that there are eternal rewards for "serving humanity" while ignoring the eternal rewards for a Godly wife and mother, well, good luck.

Maybe you ought to do a little Bible study on what kind of things are going to be rewarded in heaven.

[64. S said the following at 7:46 AM on Sep 28:]

64

#55 -

DBD- Why can't a teacher be a "power chick"? Is that not a career that you find as "powerful" as one in corporate America? How demeaning to all of the teachers out there.

[65. BDB said the following at 1:52 PM on Sep 29:]

65

S (#64) wrote:

>>Why can't a teacher be a "power chick"? Is that not a career that you find as "powerful" as one in corporate America? How demeaning to all of the teachers out there. <<

Louise (#56) wrote:

>>The point I was expressing was along the lines of "Why would one be surprised that this incident would happen with a teacher?"<<

Hmmm...OK, let me try to explain in another way.

In my case, this business idea was presented by an elementary school teacher who is a little younger than me. That's why I was so surprised. And impressed.

In my case, I'm defining as "power chicks" those who complete their master's degree or higher and go full-bore on their career. These are the women who brag to me after their pay breaks $100,000/year. This includes most of the female MBA's I've known.

But they are not kind people. In fact, none of the women I've known like that have ever challenged me to grow in my walk with Christ. Typically they apply pressure to buy a new car, try a new alcoholic beverage, go on a cruise...all things driven by a consumer culture.

The "power chicks" I know tend to be unkind - even merciless to those who stand in their way. They're usually smarter than average, and use that as an excuse to shout down anyone to opposes them. Men can do this, too. But that type of behavior tends to be rewarded more in a business sales environment, at least in the short term. Until compensation gets to high and the cut the territory of the person.

The article in question focused on hard-charging business women. The telling paragraph is the woman who "refused to compromise." Well, talk to anyone who's been sucessfully married for 20 years and ask them if "refusing to compromise" is an effective strategy.

Most of the successful teachers I know learned to be kind and encouraging along the way. They do not ridicule others when they stumble. If they do that to a child, the child will never again trust them. I've seen lots of "successful" busines people ridicule others who fail or make a mistake. Not a good way to build a team. But an elementary teacher will be lucky to break $50,000/year, depending on whether she works another job during the summer off.

There was a story told about Thomas Edison. One of the light bulbs they made took 24 hours to prepare. He handed it to one of the workshop boys to take to the next step. The boy dropped it and it shattered. They had to work another 24 hours to make another one. Edison looked around and gave the new bulb to the same boy to carry. He didn't drop it this time. If nothing else, Edison understood little boys.

[66. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:24 PM on Sep 29:]

66

S in #64 -

Why are you insulted by what BDB said?

Clearly, he meant it as a compliment...

Anyway, "Power Chick" and "Successful" are being used (in this post) to describe people who are more interested in Career at all costs, are after enough money to support a luxurious life style, and are the "go-get-em" types that end up being VPs and CEOs of major corporations by the time they are 35.

Yes, there are "successful" women who DO NOT DO THAT and success can be measured by more than just one yard stick - and money isn't always the best one to use. Which would make the women claiming that point to be the "successful" women that most men would actually want and respect.

Teachers are NOT described as Power Chicks, because (in case you haven't noticed) teaching DOES NOT bring a lot of reward to it in the worldly sense of the word. It doesn't pay well, it doesn't offer a lot in lieu of advancement, and its often a highly disrespected job (if only by the ones you are teaching...)

Teachers are the "successful" people who don't use the normal yard sticks to measure success. And they are not the ones being considered in this post.

[67. BDB said the following at 2:25 PM on Sep 29:]

67

Lynn (#60) wrote:

>>Why shouldn't a woman develop and exercise her talents, gifts and interests through career pursuits in her "off" seasons (either before the children come, or after they're of age and need her less).<<

I don't think either I or EE said this. The way she phrases it is the most challenging. She sees wife & mother a being the most important role, everything else is secondary. And she's published 28 books - making her one of the most successful authors of all time. But she sees that as secondary.

The problem, for both men and women, is when they make career the #1 idol in their life. When people pour 100% of their talent into their career, they will be more successful at work than those who put 60% into their career, 20% into civic/church volunteer work, and 20% into their family. But I argue that the latter mix is a much better way to live life. You give up some work-related success, but get a lot more back.

One big advantage is that when you lose your job, your entire life doesn't crumble. I believe that captures the spirit of Luke 16:9:

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammom, that when you fail, they receive you into an everlasting home.

Let me be clear - men who pour 100% of their leadership skills into their work get divorced. There's nothing left over for home. The women in the article sound like they are doing the same thing - pouring all their talent into work. That leaves nothing left over for anything else.

If you read biographies of people who stay married, they always have some kind of section about how their spouse supported and encouraged them. People who focus all their energy on work don't do this. They're too busy. They have nothing to give. They are not paying close enough attention to be able to give specific encouragement when someone falters. Worse, if they've bought into the world's idea of success, they will pull back from anyone who stumbles career-wise.

On the nonprofit board I'm on there's a woman who is married to the Chairman of a majore publicly traded company. As far as I can tell, she doesn't work. But she has the mind of an executive. She invests a lot of time in their various charitable giving initiatives. they recently gave more than $150,000 to a local Adventist children's hospital.

Even though she isn't "working," she's clearly achieving her potential. I totally see why he married her after his first wife died. She's very committed to improving the lives of others and she gets quite a bit done.

Personally, I'm very pro education. But I'm much more impressed by the woman who becomes a doctor to use her earnings to do medical outreach on missions trips. I'm much less impressed with the person who does it to buy multiple luxury cars and get prestige. I know both kinds. Their education and skills translate into equal "success." But there's a huge difference in their heart. I know a couple who are both doctors and they're now in a developing nation running a children's hospital. They need a comparable level of education to understand the contribution they are making.

I really do think that everone ought to think through how they can invest in the lives of others. It's also a good idea to be able to identify WHAT someone is good at, even if it doesn't fall into the definition of "career success."

[68. vjd said the following at 5:58 PM on Sep 29:]

68

Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow. Farmer Tom in #63.

Wait just a minute! I thought the MEN were supposed to do the pursuing. If I'm supposed to chase the guy down all of a sudden....well, that changes things! But then again, that puts me as the one in charge; and as we've argued to death on other posts, men are supposed to initiate and women are supposed to respond.

[69. EM said the following at 8:23 PM on Sep 29:]

69

Hey, gals -- I have an idea. Why don't you take up knitting and stay at home until your knight in shining armor comes to care you away to the little house with a picket fence. You can read Elsie Dinsmore stories or Stepping Heavenward while you are waiting for him to notice you across the room at a single's meeting or church dinner. He'll work from 8-6 and you'll have a nice little dinner on the table and give him a peck on the cheek when he comes home. And of course you will have 4 or 5 wonderful children. He'll make all the major decisions and delegate to you all the ones that aren't worth his time and trouble. You'll respect him because he brings home the bacon and he'll love you because you cook it for him. He'll drive the family SUV to church on Sunday and you'll drive the kiddos to boy scouts and soccer. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

What? You want something more? A life partner who respects you? Someone who shares your faith & politics (at least mostly) and with whom you can have a decent conversation? You want him to respect you too? How arrogant and presumptuous of you! Don't you know you are supposed to be the dainty flower and he your gardener and protector? You want him to be a committed husband and father -- but also someone whose company you will enjoy long after the kids are gone? You want to be his strong helper, friend and companion? What sort of feminist nonsense is this?

After all, read the church fathers and Dr. Ware - you aren't his equal and were never meant to be - you were designed to wash his socks and make doctor's appointments and keep his home clean and kozy. No, that doesn't work for you? It isn't enough? Not what you had in mind for your marriage? Maybe you should rethink your priorities, huh? You'll be single for the rest of your life with that kind of attitude.

----

Of course, I'm being a bit sarcastic but some commenters here are not. I want to marry an equal myself. Someone different but equal. A degree isn't everything. Income isn't everything. Intellect isn't everything (but it does matter). Looks certainly aren't everything. Faith matters a lot and so does character. Personality does matter but I can see myself with a somewhat mature person of several personality types. I'm intimidated by very few people and not generally attracted to people who are intimidated by me. But, hey, I'll give you a chance - whoever you are - if you want a marriage that is Christian partnership.

[70. Rachael said the following at 8:45 PM on Sep 29:]

70

re: the idea that has come up regarding women in "serving humanity" type of professions

-->I think we need to be careful in casting judgment on types of professions people choose and the attitudes they might hold in choosing them.

At the same time, it would do all of us (both male/female) well to realize that 'serving humanity' can be done in both the simple and 'noble' ways. God can work through highly esteemed service jobs/missionary positions. And He can work wonders through the mundane.

As for women with the demanding jobs that impact people on a more obvious level, power to them! Doesn't mean they'll be in those jobs even if they have kids. And if they do? Let the husband and her work it out; there just might be a really really cool Christian nanny or daycare provider that would lavish love on the child.

I guess, ultimately God is in control. Yes we still do things against his revealed will in Scripture. But there is room for some variation in the way people live.

Even if things seem 'holy' to us, it doesn't always mean they are. We should remember that and strive for an open, gentle spirit (myself included) with regard to gray areas.

[71. Ashley said the following at 9:27 AM on Sep 30:]

71

farmerTom (63)

This statement makes your Elisabeth Elliot post look very, very cherrypicked:

"Ladies, you want a Godly husband, find him and pursue him. Forget the career track, it will only bring you sorrow."

Elisabeth Elliot would disapprove. Not only should the man do the pursuing -- something stated very very very clearly in ALL her writings on the topic, but also in her writings, she acknowledges that there may be cause for a single woman or a widow to have a skill set to support herself. She states that this is not the optimal situation, but it is one that must be addressed, nonetheless. Further, as I discussed this topic with some people I know, over and over they referenced the entrepreneurial activities of the Proverbs 31 woman. It doesn't sound like she sat around at home twiddling her thumbs and putting dinner on the table to me...

[72. BDB said the following at 4:26 PM on Sep 30:]

72

Let me say something else positive about the Boundlessline posters. It was in reading the comments that I realized something was missing with the "power chicks." Those focused solely on their careers pretty much never consider the possibility that God may have a calling - they sneer at the idea. The ones I've know also invested little, if any, effort understanding their Bible or any other Christian reading. They were firmly embedded in the consumer culture.

Many of the commenters here have a Biblical knowledge that is much deeper. It's quite refreshing, really. But it also made it clear that these "power chicks", though they considered themselves Christians, weren't interested in living out their faith at all.

How people spend their time and money says a lot about their character.

I can't find the cite, but I once read an article that broke down divorce rates by job title. Cops were about 80%, teachers 20%. I once asked a cop why it was so high. His impression was that guys got a good-paying job, then immediately bought a bunch of toys (big truck, boat, etc.) and then had to work tons of overtime to pay the bills. Others might point to the tendency of available women to hit on cops.

Then think of the contrast: teachers have all the holidays off, plus three months a year, perhaps in the summer. That provides LOTS of time to do projects that stack up around home, go on mission trips, or anything else that makes one happy. Contrast that with business executives who end up taking zero time off because they don't feel like they can afford to.

Lots of time available vs. zero time available. Which is more appealing?

[73. S said the following at 4:53 PM on Sep 30:]

73

#66-

I'm insulted, because so many of the comments on this site are vast sweeping generalizations. "Successful" women do this... single women do this ... married women do that... single men did this... married men did that ... etc.

Why is it that people are sterotyped or put into buckets in these message boards? There are as many personalities as there are people in the world. Is it so hard to believe that not all single women or all successful women or all fill-in-the-blank share the same opinions or outlook?

[74. BDB said the following at 8:57 PM on Sep 30:]

74

S (#73) wrote:

>>Is it so hard to believe that not all single women or all successful women or all fill-in-the-blank share the same opinions or outlook?<<

For my part, I hope that over time it is apparent that I see the same choice as having similar consequences for both men and women. We all reap what we sow.

In terms of attitude towards career, in person I could name five women with advanced degrees who are adamant that motherhood should be placed above career. I know an equal number of women who place career first. We could go through the results of their choices. I'm not comfortable naming names on the Internet.

Admittedly, I'm dealing with a sample size of less than 200. It's not a scientific analysis. But then again, someone who dated 200 people would be called a player, not a scientist...

[75. kaj said the following at 9:22 PM on Sep 30:]

75

BDB (#72):

I appreciate your affirmation of the "commenters here [which] have a Biblical knowledge that is much deeper."

However, based on the experience of friends and family who are teachers, those in the education sector may not necessarily have the copious amounts of time you mention.

The work does not end when the closing school bell rings. Teachers "work overtime" to grade papers, change out bulletin boards, meet with parents, and attend staff meetings.

Teachers (especially in smaller Christian schools) often chaperone after-school activities, such as athletics or yearbook. Most activities also require participating in fund-raising events. The smaller the staff, the more hats teachers will have to wear.

Holidays off may be spent catching up on lesson plans, grading more papers, and other obligatory paperwork.

Yes, there are "summers off" for teachers in the US and Canada. But teachers still have to to fulfill "continuing education" requirements (read: summer school) to renew teaching licenses. In-services held prior to first day of school also cut into summer vacation. I would also be remiss to not mention shopping for the classroom (often paid for out of the teachers' own meager paychecks!).

Furthermore, every so many years, many teachers have to prepare for school accreditation reviews. This requires more paperwork and reports added to the "regular" school year work.

For teachers who actually care about their students' academic, social, physical, and spiritual growth, they may measure "success" in ways not as easy to define as, say, profit margins or market share. And teachers' overtime hours reap far less pay than overtime-working CEOs.

[76. BDB said the following at 4:09 PM on Oct 1:]

76

Kaj (#75) wrote:

>>The work does not end when the closing school bell rings. Teachers "work overtime" to grade papers, change out bulletin boards, meet with parents, and attend staff meetings.<<

I note for the record that I did not say teachers worked fewer hours per day. All those things - like grading homework - do make the days during the school year just as long as days at the office.

But the 2-3 months per year with no class really does make a difference. To avoid burnout, most business people need to take time to "sharpen the saw," also. Continuing education is required for engineers, architects, lawyers and CPAs, too. But they don't have 2-3 months/year built in and available for that.

Think of it this way: 12 hours/day for 9 months a year, or 12 hours/day for 12 months a year.

[77. Lisa said the following at 9:17 PM on Oct 3:]

77

Farmer Tom is breath of fresh air! Come on ladies, what he is saying is absolutely true and you and I know it!!!!! We women have castrated men for too long and we are paying a huge price. Look at our boys, they don't even know what real manhood is! We have worked on men for so long, multigenerationally, they can't even see feminism for what is anymore. We have led them into our realm calling it Christian liberty. I agree with Farmer Tom, I say hogwash to you ladies who do not take our highest calling found Titus 2:5 seriously! Do you think you know better than God? Who are you serving? You serve yourself and that is the truth!!! You pick and choose scripture as you want. I am with you Brother Tom, you are a resounding voice in a very dark world. Come on men, don't be afraid of stepping on our toes. God's truth is what we need, rise up and be real men! We need to hear God's truth not more men who have been indoctrinated by women who want to make you feminine, to justify their rebellion against Gods word!