Reservoirs of Men
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 09/02/2008 at 2:46 PM
OK, so my friends and I have been known to complain about a shortage of single men from time to time, but it's actually true in Australia.
In "No Mates, Mate!" Today discusses the "man drought" afflicting Australia. (I know we have some Australian friends reading, so be sure to comment!)
The article is based on demographer Bernard Salt's book Man Drought, which came out this week.
"There is simply less product for 30-something women, in particular, to choose from," he said.
"In the old days, we believed Mr. or Mrs. Right would show up someday, but as we remain single for much longer, and are far more mobile, the chances are more remote," Salt told Reuters.
Aside from cringing at men being referred to as "product," I can relate. We've talked about the "eligible bachelor paradox" before. But this is an actual numbers game in Australia. According to statistics bureau data, there were 96,900 more females than males in Australia as of June 2005. The imbalance is worse on the coast.
"Single men are concentrated in rural and remote communities, whereas single women prefer the city and lifestyle towns," Salt explained. "A generation ago, women were more likely to remain in rural communities." This widespread movement of women away from rural areas into major cities has caused a major shift and a "gender imbalance."
A Queensland outback mayor made international headlines this month when he called for female "ugly ducklings" to move to the remote mine town of Mt. Isa if they were desperate to meet a man.
Wow. Those are some drastic measures. But this "gender imbalance" translates to Australia's single population rising from 20 to 25 percent in just one decade. Salt's advice to singles is simple: move.
Salt's solution: move to a place like Nar Nar Goon town in Victoria state, where its population of 600 has 12 single men in their 30s and one single woman.
"It's a man dam there. A reservoir of men," he said. "You find this right across Australia, little reservoirs of untapped men."
That statement makes me giggle, but perhaps Salt is onto something with altering your plans to make matrimony a greater possibility. This article could have been a downer, but Salt's no-nonsense advice lifted my spirits. (Plus, how often do you get to read about a "Sheila shortage"?)
1. Dan Gill said the following at 2:56 PM on Sep 2:
Well, with China's imbalance on the male side, maybe there needs to be some cultural exchange.
Years ago, my brother was in the U.S. Navy, and put into port in Australia. He told me that over a dozen women met sailors and flew to Honolulu to marry them. The ship's crew was about 400. Sounds like those numbers would be low these days.
2. Tom Neven said the following at 3:00 PM on Sep 2:
... much less a town called Nar Nar Goon!
3. Mike said the following at 3:05 PM on Sep 2:
You know, thinking about "reservoirs of men" and about how reservoirs are filled, I couldn't help thinking about a song lyric:
"It's raining men - hallelujah, it's raining men!"
(Sorry - I'll run away now...)
:-)
4. Adam said the following at 3:18 PM on Sep 2:
Even the entertainment industry has picked up on these issues. There is/was? a show on a major network that was about a woman that moved to a small remote town in Alaska where there were plenty of men, but very few women.
------------
One possibility for the ladies is to move to China. I've heard that there is an abundance of men there because of the one-child policy and a cultural preference to males.
Eligibility is an entirely different matter though. For instance, my town seems to have its share of single gals, but it seems to be seriously lacking single gals who are following Christ.
It is a challenge, no doubt - whether you are on the male or female side. The odds always seemed to be stacked the wrong way. I find that I just have to trust God and keep my eyes open.
5. Rachael said the following at 3:19 PM on Sep 2:
Wow, lucky single woman in Nar Nar Goon... ;)
6. Naomi said the following at 4:09 PM on Sep 2:
With Church attendance declining every year over here in Australia, particularly in Rural areas, I'll not start packing my bags just yet...
7. Ben said the following at 4:25 PM on Sep 2:
Well I am a single man, and I am leaving for Australia tomorrow evening to spend a week with a girl I met at a missions conference in Thailand 7 months ago and with whom I have been communicating with ever since. So meeting and marrying an American is always a choice for these shilas and American men love Aussie accents to boot ;-).
8. Steve said the following at 4:26 PM on Sep 2:
I am an Australian living now in Canada, and I am continually frustrated how North American media and blogs misrepresent life in Australia, as this one does.
Your facts are misleading: A gender difference of 96,900 is virtually meaningless in a country with a population of roughly 21,370,000 people (2008 Census Figure). If every Australian woman were to marry every single man in the country, then only around 0.91% (less than 1%) of women would be left with out a husband.
Considering that women tend to live older than men, it is only natural to expect there to be slightly more women than men in the general population.
The difference in gender populations cannot account for the rise in singlehood in Australia. Adultescence, the need for increased education, high home prices, low wages, and new sexual and family norms are better explanations.
Also, the examples given of towns with massive shortages of men or women are very rare to find in Australia. True of a few places, but almost everywhere in Australia there are almost equal numbers of men and women. Besides, this is not just an Australian phenomenon because one can find mining towns in America or Canada with similar screwed gender ratios.
Finally, I have never in my entire life heard of an Australian woman being called a "Sheila." We call our women baby, honey, love, or darling. "Sheila" is a word from the 1800's and does not describe women in modern Australia.
9. Suzanne said the following at 4:38 PM on Sep 2:
Rachael, LOL! :)
10. BDB said the following at 4:40 PM on Sep 2:
So THAT's why the Austrailian women I met in Cambodia were so friendly...
11. Laura said the following at 4:42 PM on Sep 2:
This could be why an Australian friend of mine is moving here...
12. Jess M said the following at 4:50 PM on Sep 2:
I'm from Australia, and I managed to find a man in the city just fine :) In fact, that's (partially) why I moved out of the rural town I grew up in: zero Christian guys.
But if we're talking singles in general, it's true.
Actually, we have a reality show called "Farmer wants a wife" where single guys from rural towns opt to come and have their pick of city girls in an effort to match up.
I guess it's because you've got all these guys who have just taken over the family business and that takes up so much of their time. And by the time they realise they'd actually like to settle down with someone, all the women have gone looking elsewhere.
13. mary kate said the following at 4:51 PM on Sep 2:
i've considered moving to colorado, as it seems like that's where all the single guys in the midwest are heading.
14. Suzanne said the following at 5:05 PM on Sep 2:
Thanks for the thoughts, Steve. My understanding is that Bernard Salt, the originator of this idea, is Australian, though. And he's the one who coined "Sheila shortage" not me. :)
15. Dan said the following at 5:12 PM on Sep 2:
I'm 23, single and male, and I've just moved to Brisbane. Enough said.
16. DutchMeister said the following at 5:23 PM on Sep 2:
To Steve:
I do not know whether the United States and Canada have "screwed gender ratios" (Freudian slip?), but they may have certain geographical areas with populations of "skewed gender ratios." (Wink!) ;)
17. Isabella said the following at 6:04 PM on Sep 2:
I live in Sydney, Austrlian and I guess it's important to keep in mind that we have a God that is not bound by statistics and numbers =)
18. Susan said the following at 6:23 PM on Sep 2:
Though I have no plans to currently move, it would be nice to know where the little reservoirs of Christian single men in America are located.
19. Elle said the following at 6:55 PM on Sep 2:
Thank you Ben!
20. Leah said the following at 7:37 PM on Sep 2:
"A Queensland outback mayor made international headlines this month when he called for female "ugly ducklings" to move to the remote mine town of Mt. Isa if they were desperate to meet a man."
Aaaahahaha. Yup. He said something like "it doesn't even matter if you're ugly, move here anyway".
Steve mate, I think you've been living away from Australia too long. Or have misread the article. The article says that the "man drought" is not because there are not enough men, but because the men are living in rural and regional areas, and women are living in more metropolitan areas.
"Finally, I have never in my entire life heard of an Australian woman being called a "Sheila.""
Are you serious? Did you grow up in Sydney or something? Sure, it's not common every day language, but go into rural (even some regional) areas, and it definitely gets used, both as a term for women and as an insult to guys ("C'mon, JUMP ya sheila!" Yeah we sound like yobbos, but we do it for kicks haha).
I've heard "Sheila" used more than "baby", that's for sure...
Not to mention "Sheila" is not a "pet name" like baby, honey, darling etc. Different uses.
21. brx said the following at 8:15 PM on Sep 2:
I still think the main reason for aging singles is failing to look for love like a peasant (that was a good article). Those women flocking to the resevoirs of men - they've got it. Those who aren't and say they are 'just picky' about the guys they are interested in - well, they aren't really as desparate as they sound when they're whining.
[hope I didn't offend too much. I just visited a singles ministry that my pastor friend has been hounding me to attend and sat at a table where four young women AND two guys openly stated with a desparate tone that they _really_ want to be married. They've known each other a few weeks; so, I couldn't help but wonder why there weren't two pairs there exploring the possibility. Then one of the ladies mentioned "we're really picky."] [yeah, I'll be going back with copies of that Boundless article and Covenant Life's Relationships series]
Grace, peace & adventure!
22. Kathryn said the following at 9:00 PM on Sep 2:
Steve: I rather enjoy embracing Aussie stereotypes. Although I don't know anyone named Sheila (and maybe 1 Bruce), I think it's funny. How bout when you come back to this sunburnt country you and I throw some shrimp on the barbie and down a few Fosters? *tee hee*
It's natural to expect there to be a big gap in the numbers of men and women living in mining towns. Having grown up in several as my Dad was a mining engineer, I can say that they're rough places and only rough ladies can tolerate them. That being said, they offer a LOT of money and many women are being lured outwards for that reason.
In the churches I've been a part of though, there seems to be a balance of men and women. There are plenty of opportunities to meet various men, so long as you're prepared to get involved in activities like Beach Missions, Conventions and Conferences, or church dinners and parties hosted by Christians, etc.
The rise of singleness is due to the nation being dominantly secular. Marriage isn't a thing to do any more unless you're bored. There are plenty of opportunities for men and women to get married, by why? Why get married? There is no reason for them. They can register as a de facto couple and receive the same benefits without the expense and hassle of getting married. They're probably going to split up soon anyway because commitment isn't a nice word.
23. Danielle said the following at 11:14 PM on Sep 2:
AHA! I knew I wasn't just dreaming this up. :)
As a single woman in her late twenties who has lived for the past three years in Aussie cities, I definitely recognise a trend. I grew up in more rural areas and there were, indeed, lots more single men around. Still not many in church circles even in the country, though.
Here at my local Brisbane church twentysomething group, things are different: it's probably 60% guys and 40% girls. Most guys, however, are substantially younger. I only know two or three single church-going guys around my age.
I've been to Mount Isa... and I wouldn't want to be moving there in a hurry :).
24. cate said the following at 3:14 AM on Sep 3:
I couldnt agree more- im 30 year old single girl living in Sydney. There are no men here. Everywhere you go, its single girls and gay guys. Its quite disheartening. Ive travelled to the US many times and always meet so many wonderful guys...esp in california and Colorado..there seems to be a lot there? Anyway, if i stay in Sydney I feel like i'll be alone forever....moving overseas has become a priority..
25. Kelly said the following at 4:55 AM on Sep 3:
I have lived on and off in Australia over the past several years, and I could not agree more.
In Aus, I did not get asked out even ONCE in 6 months. Over an 18 month period, there was 1 date.
I moved to Ireland a few months ago and got asked out 3 times within the first 6 weeks. There are actually single men here. Likewise in other countries I've lived in. (There's a running joke in my family: I only ever have boyfriends overseas.)
I'm a very social person, always joining new groups, new activities, and yes, new churches (even though I know it's bad to husband-hunt that way!) And the truth is, Australian churches just don't seem to have single men.
26. obewan said the following at 7:34 AM on Sep 3:
Where do I sign up?
I have heard that Australian women love American men too. Something to do with being treated poorly by the native men.
27. NAB said the following at 8:39 AM on Sep 3:
Note the slight anti-city bias in this post. As the population urbanizes, the church can't continue to demonize the city and continue to grow and stay relevant. I really don't get it.
28. Michelle said the following at 8:41 AM on Sep 3:
Hahaha!! Very funny, Suz :)
Well, as a single Aussie gal (heh. Or 'Sheila') (although i've gotta say: only Alf Stewart on Home & Away would be game enough to use that expression!) - it can certainly FEEL like there is a man drought down here. At least, that is, a Christian man drought.
BUT... I have no doubt that if the good Lord sees it fit for me and/or other ladies to be married, He will make a way for it to happen.
Besides... All you need is one! You can't marry any more than that :)
29. NeedACatchyName said the following at 9:40 AM on Sep 3:
While they could have stated it better, I agree with the general premise of this article that there are generally plenty of single girls and plenty of single guys out there, but they tend to be located in different areas from each other. As a result, you get some towns with a lot of single guys wondering where all the girls are, and some towns with a lot of single girls wondering where the guys are.
And to answer Susan's question in post #18, I can think of three such locations where you might find high concentrations of single men, in no particular order:
1) Rural areas. Every rural/farming area I've ever been to seems to be puzzled by the notion that the church is full of single girls and doesn't have very many single men, since in their experience, it's the exact opposite. There are exceptions, but I think as a general trend, this article is correct in saying that rural areas tend to have a greater concentration of single men.
2) Towns with military bases, though you would have to be open to a "military family" lifestyle for this to be an option.
3) Towns with a large amount of high-tech industry and engineering/research. Often times these are the same towns as #2, since defense engineering support and research contractors tend to be near the military bases that they're working with.
30. Suzanne said the following at 9:52 AM on Sep 3:
Michelle,
So true!
31. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:30 AM on Sep 3:
I need to get a consulting job in Australia...
32. Nikki said the following at 10:46 AM on Sep 3:
I'm a single 30 something gal that lives in Oregon and there's a man drought here, as well. But ya know...God knows this. And He's much bigger than the narrow vision of our singleness and statistical facts. Of course we are made for companionship and relationship and most of us singles have deep yearnings and desires to be filled, but how many people press past the will of God because they cant' wait for His timing? He does allow us choices, but what if we settled for less than God's best for us because we were so impatient in waiting for His timing? When I consider that, I am placed back into the perspective that waiting is okay because I've had enough difficult relationships to not want to make the decision for myself again...because apparently my picker is broke! :) I have faith that regardless of statistics, that God will make a way for the one he would have for me. I don't need to move anywhere (although Alaska has been tempting...hehe) unless the Lord directs me. He's preparing us each for each other, as we speak.
33. Patrick said the following at 12:00 PM on Sep 3:
Well, I'm a single American Christian guy in the age range we're talking about, yet moving to Sydney! I can't wait. It should be exciting.
I love Sydney, and think it's one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to and seen in my entire life! And I've been to and lived in lots of beautiful places including all over California, the UK, and Italy. Sydney reminded me of a mix between London (because of gov't and society), San Francisco (because of the gorgeous Harbour), and Los Angeles (because of the diversity and culture, and climate, too!). Such a beautiful city. It's like a hidden gem, tucked away Down Under!
Even better, I think Australians are seriously some of the coolest people, too. I love the care-free, "no worries, mate" attitude. And also the -- what's it called? -- "cutting down the tall poppy" thing? I could tell a few funny stories about this but suffice it to say super friendly people, some of the friendliest and warmest in the entire world, I think!
Anyway, yeah, I truly think Sydney is great. And, perhaps more importantly for me, hopefully it'll be a great place to meet single Christian women, too! I guess we'll see. :-)
By the way, any tips about good churches, Christian organizations or societies, and so on worth checking out while in Sydney? Cool, thanks!
34. Nicole said the following at 12:01 PM on Sep 3:
Just wanted to state the obvious that most people don't have the option of just picking up their whole lives to move to a strange part of the world simply to find a spouse. I can also imagine there would be conflicts in two people from different countries marrying, where would they live for one.
So the idea is nice, but not very practical for most of us out there.
35. TMD said the following at 12:05 PM on Sep 3:
Steve (#8)
I concur with your reasoning.
I'm not sure if people are actually reading the entire article Suzanne linked to. If they do, then they would know its premise is that women in their 30's have a hard time finding a man because they've moved from rural areas to cities. In essence? Women themselves have created this so-called gender imbalance. Kinda ironic for women to then complain they can't find a mate!
Which leads me to my second point. With all due respect, Suzanne, your opening statement is not only misleading, but contradicts the article your post is referencing. As both Steve and the article point out, there are enough men for almost every woman in Australia.
36. Ruth said the following at 12:14 PM on Sep 3:
There do seem to be plenty of single guys and single gals around, but they don't always seem to find each other, much less get married.
According to this article from Newsweek, this might be one reason why marriage is on the decline:
www.newsweek.com/id/156372
I'm curious to know what you think.
37. Kirsty said the following at 2:16 PM on Sep 3:
Isabella (17)
Well said. Our God is much bigger than stats and numbers.
38. Suzanne said the following at 2:41 PM on Sep 3:
Patrick (#33),
You should sign on with the Sydney Board of Tourism. ;)
39. Paul said the following at 3:37 PM on Sep 3:
Doggone it, I need to get to Australia, mate!
40. Tigger said the following at 4:07 PM on Sep 3:
To add to Ruth's (#36) post, here are a few more links I read within the past week:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26405940/?GT1=43001
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26317942/
Granted, they are from MSNBC, which is perhaps less respectable than Newsweek, but there are a whole lot more pages to read and reflect on. (And to be honest, I'm a little surprised that everyone is surprised by this - as if it's new. I've been observing it for nigh on 10 years and it doesn't seem to be waning.)
I also second Nicole's (#34) post: Moving to another country because they have more men or women is rather unrealistic, especially when one of those countries is located in Asia, a place so different from Western culture that it would be tough to make a relationship work, much less get married and make all the big decisions about where to live, which language to speak, how often to go home, and who has to give up more.
That said, I'd love to go to Australia, as Aussies are some of the funnest, coolest, best people I've ever had the pleasure of hanging out with.
And perhaps women are moving to the cities because that's where the jobs are - the jobs they've been training and getting into debt for. There are also more people - more chances to meet someone if there are 3 million rather than 3000.
41. Kelly said the following at 4:28 PM on Sep 3:
Danielle - I may be moving to Brisvegas in November. Can I ask which church you go to? :)
42. Leah said the following at 6:37 PM on Sep 3:
obewan- sorry to dash your hopes, but I don't know any Aussie women who'd rather an American guy over an Aussie.
Danielle- which church do you go to? I know lots of Brisbanites :)
Patrick- in response to your Q about Sydney churches, it REALLY depends where you're going to live. I've had quite a range of experiences with Sydney churches (all good though). If you can tell me where you're going to be living I might be able to give a better suggestion :)
NAB- can't say I noticed any anti-city bias.
cate- just coz there don't seem to be any eligible men in Sydney doesn't mean there are none in Aus :P
43. Rachael said the following at 6:40 PM on Sep 3:
Nicole,
While it might not be practical or wise for people to up and leave to go to a foreign country simply for the purpose of the possibility of meeting a spouse, you could apply the idea on a more local level. Could someone join an additional circle where they will meet new people? Could someone join an activity in a nearby city? Could someone move from a suburb to a nearby bigger city? Those types of things are often doable...
44. Stuart said the following at 7:37 PM on Sep 3:
The Church I attend has about the same single male/single female numbers around the late 20s to mid 30s. Trouble is the women just don't seem interested. I know if I (and one of my close friends) want to talk to a lady we just about have to stand on her foot to get her to stay.It seems that Christian women aren't interested in a 'just friends' relationship with blokes whereas the women (all non Christian) I work with are more than happy to have a chat.
45. cait said the following at 7:39 PM on Sep 3:
Newsflash!!! I'm moving to Mt Isa!
Not really, I have boyfriend. I live in Adelaide and I don't think my problem is with lack of men... it's lack of committed growing Christian men.
46. Kathryn said the following at 10:32 PM on Sep 3:
Tigger (#40): Australian University debt isn't nearly as serious or stress-worthy as American debt for Australian citizens. It is still a thing, but not a huge thing to keep you awake at night. In fact, the loan is from the government and they only start collecting that debt when you earn a certain income. So my staffworker at my Christian group on campus isn't currently paying off her debt because she doesn't earn enough. However, she recently bought an apartment. University debt here isn't crippling.
Patrick (#33): I think you're talking about tall poppy syndrome. When someone gets a really big ego, everyone likes to cut them down to size. Also, I know that the Anglican church in Sydney is pretty good, Phillip Jensen's doctrinally sound. But as for church-by-church recommendations, I'd listen to Leah. She's the gal to talk to. :)
47. lewsta said the following at 1:14 AM on Sep 4:
Nikki in Oregon: what part? I've spent quite a bit of time in that state, and met very few single christian women of the sort any godly man would want to marry. Seems most are either not interested or have such strange values/ideas they're not really the sort to be starting in a marriage relationship patterned after biblical standards. Most women deliberately desiring godly marriages are found and married well before their mid-twenties. Which is good. But that leaves few in the "older" categories available. Personally, I don't care a bit about age, other factors being far more critical. But I've learned that much outside the culturally preferred 2.3 years age spread (he being the elder, of course....) is looked upon as being, well, unacceptable. Yet no one has ever been able to satisfactorally present a basis for this. Certainly never a biblical one. Oh well...
48. Farmer Pete said the following at 3:57 AM on Sep 4:
It's long been said that if it wasn't for the professions that bring young women to country towns - such as teaching or nursing - that a great many farmers would never marry. It is a very real issue for us, as a far higher percentage of young men find rural work than do young women. Not that I'm talking about ill-educated rustics, but when the children in a farming family go away to acquire an education... it is far mor normal for the boys to opt for qualifications that are useful "back on the farm", and for them to actually return.
Perhaps there is a hint rfor the girls there. Look at careers that fill needs in country areas - like education, medicine or veterinary - and actively seek country postings. We not only have a shortage of women, but also of doctors and vets.
Whether you will find numbers of Christian young men depends upon the church you attend. One (single) friend in his forties is the youngest man in his congregation. On the other hand, a church that I attended just 10 miles down the road had 5 unattached, godly men in their 30s or early 40s... and another half-dozen in their 20s.
I believe that farming offers a terrific opportunity to forge a true partnership, in that you live amidst your work and share those ambitions struggles, as well of those of building a family. But be aware that it isn't an easy lifestyle, but one that places many demands upon a relationship. It's a question that many of us ask when reviewing a potentiual mate. Not just "Will she marry me?", but "Can she cope and will she share my priorities?"
Respectfully.......... Peter
49. Danielle said the following at 6:08 AM on Sep 4:
Kelly and Leah -- I go to Creek Rd Pressy (creekrdpc.org) which, for a girl with a church background from reformed to baptist to pentecostal, has been a wonderful surprise. Fantastic teaching and awesome people.
50. Michele H said the following at 12:34 PM on Sep 4:
18. Susan:
Here is where the men out number the women in the USA:
http://solofemininity.blogs.com/posts/2007/04/i_live_in_an_or.html
51. Patrick said the following at 1:30 PM on Sep 4:
Cool, thanks, Leah and Kathryn! I don't wanna give away my exact details, would it be ok to please email me at pchan10 at sbcglobal dot net? Thanks!
52. Toniette said the following at 2:11 PM on Sep 4:
There's a small resevoir where I live... in my own house actually! My husband and I just rented out our apartment to 3 single Christian guys... no girlfriends in sight... so far! :)
53. Leah said the following at 8:08 PM on Sep 4:
Danielle- you go to Creek Road? No way! Do you know Cassie Wharton? How long have you been there? Were you there when Dave McDougall was the minister? He's the minister at my church up in Townsville now! Small world :D
Patrick - I'll send off an email right now ;)
54. Sheridan said the following at 8:44 PM on Sep 4:
Oooh. I like this post.
And I like Americans (extremely facinating creatures they are!)
Come on over guys!!
Make sure you come to Perth...we have better weather...
55. Nick Coller said the following at 2:11 PM on Sep 5:
RE Patrick #33:
If you're after conference stuff, pretty much everything that Katoomba Christian Convention puts on is brilliant. They just had the Engage conference for twenty-somethings where Mark Driscoll and Don Carson spoke.
The thing about the men/women thing in Australia is that all the women who grow up in the country move to the cities for university, while the guys stay and get apprenticeships. And then all the guys in the city universities get their degrees and head out to the mines out west where they can start out with $80k plus salaries.
The Australian government has been making some pushes in many fields to get people out west. I've noticed it especially with my teaching degree, where if you go out into rural Queensland, they won't even tax you as an incentive!
I'm currently about to start uni (university - we shorten everything in Aus) in England, but when I'm back home I live in Newcastle - a city with about half a million people which is often described as a "big country town". I haven't noticed these issues as much there - it's kind of the best of both the city and the rural worlds, in that sense.
56. Nick Coller said the following at 2:13 PM on Sep 5:
And Leah - you're from Townsville? Do you know a pastor named Hedley? He moved from Medowie up there... I was born in Ayr, and also did most of my primary school in Atherton. If you're a uni student, you're probably attending with some of my classmates!
57. Kathryn said the following at 5:08 PM on Sep 5:
Leah, it's not so much a small world, as it's a small Australian, evangelical Christian world. ~.^
58. Jo said the following at 11:45 AM on Sep 6:
Leah: nice reply to Obewan. :P
And I'm chuckling at all you Aussies getting to know one another. Can I be an honorary Aussie if I have and aunt and uncle and four cousins there? We should be coming over again in a year or so hopefully. I absolutely love Australia, at least the small parts of it I've been lucky enough to visit. :)
59. Chelsea Moore said the following at 5:37 PM on Sep 6:
Nicole stated,
"Just wanted to state the obvious that most people don't have the option of just picking up their whole lives to move to a strange part of the world simply to find a spouse. I can also imagine there would be conflicts in two people from different countries marrying, where would they live for one. So the idea is nice, but not very practical for most of us out there."
The article being discussed is interesting and relevant to singles who are searching for a mate, but as a single Christian who is comfortable with being independent, I cannot relate a lot to the forlorn outlook of those who'd rather be married. Why so desperate, folks?
Also, I agree with Nicole that talk of moving to other countries solely for the purpose of finding someone seems rather drastic to me. American women THEMSELVES find it difficult meeting good men, and here they are, galavanting to other parts of the globe.
Which brings me to another point: I really dislike it when American men seek foreign women. It's got "I hate feminism" all over it. With the abundance of available American women, there's no reason for it--unless they're uncomfortable with a more liberated (do not read radical) woman.
Chelsea
60. BDB said the following at 11:49 PM on Sep 6:
Chelsea Moore (#59) wrote:
>>With the abundance of available American women, there's no reason for it--unless they're uncomfortable with a more liberated (do not read radical) woman.<<
Having spent some time in other cultures, what I notice is that smart, educated women in non-American cultures take seriously the opportunity to support their husband's career and calling.
Why should a man pursue a woman who is not interested in supporting him in his calling?
61. Kathryn said the following at 12:38 AM on Sep 7:
Chelsea,
I know I'm making terrible generalisations here, but in my experience with Christian women in America and Australia, I think a man would be better off finding a suitable wife in America as I find Australian Christian women to be more liberated then those here.
Another difficulty would be having to adjust to various cultural differences that crop up. Obviously men and women have to deal with their spouse's idiosyncrasies and mannerisms when married, but I reckon it'd be just a little bit harder if they're from different countries.
62. Danielle said the following at 2:54 AM on Sep 7:
Leah -- I've only been at Creek Rd for just over a year. But craziness of crazinesses, Dave McDougall was the guest minister at this morning's farewell service for Peter Barson! I couldn't believe it.
Boundless, uniting Queenslanders online since... whenever it all began.
63. Mike said the following at 11:38 AM on Sep 7:
Chelsea Moore (#59) wrote:
Which brings me to another point: I really dislike it when American men seek foreign women. It's got "I hate feminism" all over it.
Chelsea, you probably think of feminism as representing things like the right to vote, or equal pay for equal work, or other equally innocuous notions. But this is no longer your mother's feminism (if indeed it ever was).
When American feminists say things like, "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle" (Gloria Steinham), or "The family now consists of the mother and the children (Catherine McKinnon, I think) - meaning the father is no longer required or wanted - or call foreign women "scabs" for marrying American men (meaning American women should be on strike against marriage), or "[Adultery] is indeed the form that love will assume as long as the institution of marriage lasts." (Simone de Beauvior), tell me this:
Why should American men not hate what feminism has become?
64. Chelsea Moore said the following at 3:19 PM on Sep 7:
Hi, Everyone.
Thanks to those who replied to my e-mail. Before I go any further, I'd like to issue a disclaimer of sorts: sometimes in my zeal to make a point, I can come across as rather direct. Which may not be a bad thing, except that some may not see the true me: someone who is both intelligent AND warm.
Having said this, I'm wondering why it is felt (by BDB) that American women would not support their husband's calling. I wonder if you can be more specific. I think I know what you're talking about, but rather than assume...
Kathryn, I wrote about liberated American women because I've gleaned from some sources that American men have become somewhat disenchanted with them on account of their independence. Also, I'm seeing increasing numbers of my male compatriots marrying foreign-born women...
65. Leah said the following at 5:52 PM on Sep 7:
Nick- yeah I know Hedley! Disagree with a lot of his pastoring tactics, but I know him :) I'm not a uni student anymore though. If you went to school in Atherton, did you ever come across the McLaren family?
66. Rachael said the following at 6:50 PM on Sep 7:
People who may share the sentiment in the last paragraph of #59: Remember that everyone is unique!! Sure there can be 'differences' in cultural values, but remember not to think of people from one culture as more feministy than another, whatever the appearance and cultural stereotype may be...yay for intercultural marriage, if the Christian part is fine, of course ~~
67. Charles H. said the following at 7:52 PM on Sep 7:
Chelsea #59 -
>>With the abundance of available American women, there's no reason for it--unless they're uncomfortable with a more liberated (do not read radical) woman.<<
Bingo -- that's why many such men choose women from other cultures. You may disagree with that choice, but to use an Economics analogy, the market is showing what the buyers want.
68. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:09 AM on Sep 8:
Chelsea in #59 said
"as a single Christian who is comfortable with being independent, I cannot relate a lot to the forlorn outlook of those who'd rather be married. Why so desperate, folks?"
Its very interesting the dynamic here. It really is. There are those who are completely and totally content no matter what their circumstance. There are others that, no matter how hard they try, they can't seem to find it. And when they do, its a type of content that rests on a hope for a future, and not simply contentedness for the situation they are in now.
Chelsea, you can't relate to us...but by the same token, we can't relate to you. In my own experience, its difficult and painful when there isn't a steady companion. And its not that God isn't enough...its that he made me in a unique kind of way to find a certain conentedness when I am in a deep intimate relationship with someone who balances and "completes" me. Its like finding my 2nd half. Its not that I wasn't happy before - most of my life I've been incredibly happy. But All my life, I've never fit in anywhere. God was my sole comforter, my sole provider, my source for everything...because there simply weren't a lot of people who could RELATE to me. Not at school, not in church, not with family. So yes, there were periods of unrest, discontent, uncertainty, and fear. I wanted and NEEDED someone who could relate with me on a deeper level. And that's a need God gave me with the intention of fulfilling.
That is why I have been desperate. That is why I've been searching and preparing myself.
I don't think this is a bad thing. Of course, the goal should always be to find contentedness, peace, and joy in Christ alone. But when you are resting in him and trusting in him and contentedness is still so far away, that may mean you need to change something...do something different. That could also be God's way of saying you aren't where he wants you to be...not yet.
Anyway, if it wasn't for the entire year of discontent where I tried so many different things - like taking a philosophy course at a seminary >.< - I probably wouldn't have thought about going to Shakespeare Play this past April and inviting a girl I barely knew. If I hadn't done that, she wouldn't have backed out at the last minute on me. If she hadn't done that, I wouldn't have non-chalantly and randomly asked the guy I was having a casual conversation with at the time to go see it with me. If I hadn't have done that, I wouldn't have realized that he really liked me.
Without that, I wouldn't have found the only guy I've ever known who so perfectly compliments me.
69. Christina (in green) said the following at 10:11 AM on Sep 8:
Chelsea,
The more independent a woman is, the more inclined she's going to be to desire running her own life on her terms. That's the way independence goes. American women *in general* have that prevailing mindset - with the help of feminism.
In other words, a woman doesn't need a man, doesn't want a man, and especially doesn't want HIM calling the shots on HER life. Ergo, she's going to be more inclined to demanding he stay with her than to follow him.
That is not supportive of a husband's calling.
And, believe it or not, sad as it might be, this attitude reigns supreme in american women. With a divorce rate that's INCREDIBLY high and divorces mostly initiated by women, you can see that for a women to maintain her independence is a priority. The No-Fault divorce policies, a court system that rules highly in favor of women in dorce cases, and many more independent women filing for divorce leads men who have a lot to lose to a woman who would do this more inclined to seek a woman who has absolutely no inclination to seek independence from their husbands.
In foreign women, they find that. These women want to be respected and treated well, but in large part, foreign women are much more willing to give up their independence to follow a loving husband to the ends of the world and back if need be. Feminism has gone WAY beyond respect and good treatment and has landed in the ballpark of "hate men" and "don't need 'em".
No wonder men want foreign women. And its true, foreign women are much more FEMININE than american women. They embrace their feminity, embrace their womanhood, and are willing to obey their husbands - because that is their culture.
I know its hard to swallow and sounds a bit unbelievable (especially for someone who moderately agrees with and sides on feminism), but I'd encourage you to look at feminist blogs, read what they have to say, find out what they think of traditionally minded women (both american and foreign) and see if you can find any respect for a man (or a woman) who wants a marriage that models Ephesians 5.
70. Chelsea Moore said the following at 4:04 PM on Sep 8:
I'd like to address the replies to my post regarding "Reservoirs of Men":
Charles, I specifically placed "do not read radical" in my post that precedes yours, yet you reply to it as though I were referring to just that--radical feminist women. Why do these things happen so frequently on the Internet? Because people respond to what they THINK they read. Incidentally, I hope you don't mind the little "jab", but would your choice of mate share your intellectual qualifications (re: economics analogy)?
Christina #68, I'm sorry you felt that unless you got married, you would not be complete. I believe that we are individuals in our own right, created by and in the image of God, that we should give ourselves permission to individuate and appreciate life sans a spouse. Being single for a long time has given me valuable perspective on honoring myself, and not defining myself according to my marital status.
Mike, I do not ally myself with radical feminism, such as you've described. Again, I'm referring to someone who has a strong sense of self, and values themselves enough to pursue their own interests and well-being.
Christine, well (whew!), you write a lot. I don't believe that marriages have to be one-sided (complete and utter subjugation to the man's calling) in order to honor God. Likewise, I do not believe that self-respect and living out the man's will for two people are congruous with one another. Thus, I cannot respect the foreign women whom you willingly elevate to a pedestal.
Foreign women more feminine than American women??? Where do you get your ideas, girl? Most American women are pretty feminine, I think. Come to my house. In it, you will see soft colors, pretty girly touches, and all sorts of gender-reinforcing items. My laugh, too, is very feminine. But I digress...
What cultures do you use as a basis for determining this premise?
The stereotypical petite, submissive Oriental woman? Can I tell you about all of the angry Chinese women I've met?
Or are you talking about German women?
Gasp. The inherent harshness of the German language would tend, I think, to cast some doubt on the feminine qualifications of a German lad. But perhaps I'm wrong.
Good day,
Chelsea
71. Charles H. said the following at 5:13 PM on Sep 8:
Rachael #66 - Your point is well taken. But speaking *on average*, Christina (in green) hit the nail on the head. I've lived in big cities for most of my life and dated women from a range of cultures. The western ones almost all had career plans, and it was a given with most of them that a potential husband Had Better approve of them, Or Else. Most women I've known who expressed more traditional ideas (with a few exceptions) were recent immigrants.
72. Patrick said the following at 10:54 PM on Sep 8:
Speaking for myself, as an American Christian man, I'm not moving (temporarily) overseas solely "to find a wife." I already had other plans. Sure, it'd be absolutely awesome if the Lord provided a godly wife while I'm Down Under. No question. But a godly wife isn't my primary motivating factor for moving.
That said, I don't see anything wrong with American men (or women) marrying others from different cultures (or, by the same token, peoples from other cultures marrying American men or women). Moses married Zipporah. Boaz married Ruth. I'm sure there are other examples from the Bible we can think of. (By the way, in my opinion, Ruth is one of the most beautiful and romantic books of the Bible! It tells God's faithfulness to provide for his people, even looking to provide for them spouses. What's more, Boaz and Ruth's romance mirrors that of Adam and Eve's in the Garden of Eden as well as foreshadows Christ and his church in the consummation of the ages. See Sinclair Ferguson's Faithful God for a wonderfully sweet exposition of Ruth.)
The one prerequisite in the Bible, however, is that the spouse be a genuine Christian (e.g., 1 Cor. 7:39, 2 Cor. 6:14).
Of course, yes, there could very well be significant cultural differences and other related issues to work through and overcome in an intercultural marriage. I'm not suggesting it's gonna be easy. But, ultimately, that's for the couple to decide in the context of their love for one another, in the context of receiving godly and wise counsel from others (like their pastors, elders, other Christians, friends, family, et al), and especially in the context of the Word of God.
At the same time, come on, we're talking about the US and Australia here! Yes, there are differences (e.g. Australia is still so very British to a Yank like me in much of how its society is organized and in its cultural sensibilities). But the cultural and other differences between Americans and Australians are far less than, say, between an American or an Australian and someone from Asia or Africa. Or South America. Or, heck, even a Western European nation like France or Germany! True, Australians and Americans are different from one another, but we're not that different -- not when we take the entire world and all its diverse cultures into consideration as well.
As for American women and the influence of feminism in even our evangelical churches, I agree it's there.
I'm not speaking about the positive (or at least innocuous) fruit of feminism such as granting women equal opportunities (note: *not* equal results) in things like education and career, paying a woman the same wage as a man if she does the same job as well as the man does, and so on. These are just and equitable things for our society to do. But I'm speaking about the rather negative aspects of feminism. See this article published here on Boundless for some of the sadder effects of feminism on the mindset of many women, even many faithful Christian women, in regard to dating and marriage.
But suffice it say that a lot of the prevailing attitudes among many Christian women are also assumed attitudes, and mainly unconscious, because of the seeping in of the world's way of thinking into our minds -- which includes attitudes about who a woman is, what she is supposed to desire in life, what she is supposed to value, what makes her feminine, and so on.
And, yes, we could say the same sort of stuff about American men, even Christian men, too. It's not as if Christian men are unaffected by the world's way of thinking, which includes feminism. One of the more obvious and oft-talked about (at least here on Boundless) results of men adopting the world's mentality towards women and dating and relationships is that it allows many Christian men to become apathetic and even perhaps sanctions their lack of initiative in pursuing a woman (at the same time that it seems to empower many women to pursue a man).
But that's why the Bible tells us, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect" (Rom. 12:2) and "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5). We have to start thinking Christ's thoughts after him. We have to start thinking Biblically through issues including how we should pursue relationships. And the only way to do this is to know his Word. To immerse ourselves in Biblical patterns of thought. What does the Bible say about marriage? What does God think of how a husband is supposed to treat his wife and how a wife is supposed to treat her husband? What about how we treat our children? What things do God most value? What does God most want? Is it a job, success, career advancement, fame, fortune, and so on? How does everything fit in together in the Word of God? How do we tie it all together? What things are "of first importance"? Etc. and so on.
In other words, as we immerse ourselves in the Bible, as we come to read it and study it and know it for ourselves, in the context of daily devotions and study, in the context of Bible studies with other believers, in the context of hearing the Word of God preached in our church by the servant of God, the pastor, in the context of submitting our prayers to the Word of God, to model them after how Christ and others in the Bible prayed, as we come to let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly, as we come to meditate on the Biblically rich Psalms, hymns, and songs of the Bible and sing them from our souls to the Lord, as we come to hide the Word of God in our hearts so that we might not sin, as we come to think God's thoughts after him, then we will begin to transform and renew our minds, and put off old ways and patterns of thinking including a lot of the negative aspects of feminism, the world's way of thinking about women and gender, we will thus be able to test and discern what the will of God is (which is nothing more nor less than what he has revealed to us in the Scriptures), and by God's Holy Spirit working in us, we will begin to be molded, shaped, and conformed to the image of Christ to the glory of God.
That's how we do battle with this world and overcome its sinful ways of thinking, by God's grace: when we as God's children trust, obey, humble ourselves, submit to, and eagerly desire the spiritual milk and meat of the Word of God, so that we might grow in grace, and become more like Christ.
Okay, sorry, so I "may" have gone off on a "slight" tangent towards the end there... ;-)
73. Rachael said the following at 8:58 AM on Sep 9:
Ah, Charles H., *on average*. Perhaps that's the key. I do understand that there can be general cultural trends of personalities/values.
I would like to challenge the idea of the "Western woman." My hunch is that there are a ton of "Western women" out there who would happily give their careers the boot or a lower rank of importance. Are they in the minority? Perhaps. I guess my heart is not completely into the idea of "Western vs. non-Western", but I cannot deny some of the common *average* trends, I suppose.
I guess I take issue with "average" in part because I do not feel I fall into the "average" category in all regards, and I know that there is diversity in cultures that might appear to be "traditional".
74. Rachael said the following at 9:05 AM on Sep 9:
PS. Please remember it's not just American men that end up with foreign women. American women also end up with foreign men. For example, I used to have a boyfriend from a "non-Western" culture, but it wasn't good in part because of the issue of Christianity. Not sure if he became a genuine Christian. I think he at least thought he was at a point in time, but I'm not certain of his salvation.
However, if two people are strong Christians and if they sort out how they will deal with cultural practices that contradict Biblical teaching, power to them!
"Cultural differences" aren't the biggest thing in the world. Everyone, even if they are from the same culture, will have some kinds of differences to work through if they marry. If both people have the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, that's what counts. Christ is bigger than "culture". But I could see there could be challenges - like how to decide what cultural practices to take part in and to abstain from...I could guess that that might be an issue for individual couples, but they can work it out with each other and with God...
75. Tigger said the following at 9:40 AM on Sep 9:
Hmm.
For what it's worth to those who declare that American men prefer foreign women, or maybe the idea of them - many do. But for me, as an American born and raised (from the Midwest, no less) I have to say I prefer foreign men. Wholeheartedly. I won't explain why, because I don't think my reasons would make anyone feel better, but suffice to say that the street goes two ways.
I'm also a little confused why there are two categories of women: conservative, eyes-lowered, ultra-feminine girls, and radical, men-hating, divorce-initiating feminists. Don't about 90% of us fall in the middle? I've not really heard many normal, average girls who really expect or yearn to live life without men. It's like me saying that almost all men are weak and passive or else wife-beaters. Of course they aren't. All of us, man or woman, want to find someone to share a life with. Like someone else said here, culture is one thing, and individuals are another.
As for "reservoirs of men", well, to use another economics analogy of supply and demand: if there aren't any men in your area, then you can go where they are, if you are into chasing after them. However, I do honestly prefer, after much hard-won experience, to let the boys find me. And since none of them saw fit to snag me when I was younger, I have since moved to the city to become a productive citizen and to increase the chances of meeting someone interesting.
76. Kelly said the following at 10:43 AM on Sep 9:
Rachael said: ""Cultural differences" aren't the biggest thing in the world. "
No, but they can have huge impacts on a relationship. It's much, much easier to marry someone from the same culture. Unless one party is willing to give up their culture and live their life/raise their family in the new culture, the two of you will be forever torn.
77. BDB said the following at 11:58 AM on Sep 9:
Chelsea Moore (#64) wrote:
>>Having said this, I'm wondering why it is felt (by BDB) that American women would not support their husband's calling. I wonder if you can be more specific. I think I know what you're talking about, but rather than assume...<<
I will answer your question.
This was something I was vaguely aware of that was really brought into focus when I was in Cambodia this summer. Because we were doing medical outreach in various villages, we spent a lot of time crammed into the van together. And, with a bunch of 20-something single women, you can bet that they spent a lot of time talking about "relationships." But in the hours (and hours) of discussion of what they were looking for, there was not one mention about a willingness or even a consideration of supporting a future husband's calling. Not once.
I didn't really notice it until I started to meet the Cambodian wives of a few of the Westerners who we were working with in country. I didn't meet any single Western men - those who came single ended up married to Cambodian women. Those Westerners who came married had wives who were quite committed to their husband's calling - whether the two doctors who came to run a Children's Hospital or the missionary's wife from Oregon who, 8 months pregnant, hauled out a guitar to lead worship at a small group in their house.
But one critical incident really brought it home to me. I had a chance to visit the best Children's Hospital in the country. My pastor thought it was a good opportunity to make a connection. We have a rule on our church's trips that no one goes anywhere alone. It was our day off, but I invited anyone who wanted to go with me to come.
None of the Americans wanted to go. It seems that the women were out late the night before getting their nails done, and basically, everyone wanted to spend their morning off in the air-condioned hotel.
But a Canadian we were working with, and his Cambodian wife, were willing to go. He works in community health and, like me, saw it as an important opportunity to make a connection. He'd taken sick kids to this hospital, where care is free. Initially, his wife didn't want to go. It took a few minutes for him to talk her into it; he emphasized how it was important to his community health efforts. Eventually she relented and agreed to go with us.
By the end of the tour, she was excited! She totally understood the donor part of what was discussed. She completely understood what these Westerners in the hospital were doing for the poor of Cambodia. That's also her husband's calling, and she worked for an NGO that did work with the poor in a different city. Afterwards she was excitedly telling me about some future projects they were working on in health care, the kind of donors they were looking for, etc.
And I couldn't help but think - she didn't want to go at first. She only went because it was important to her husband. It ended up being a blessing for her, too.
It does happen in America sometimes, too. At a Special Olympics meet one year, the athletes were excited about getting autographs from a former football player and a former football cheerleader. I thought it was a bit silly.
But by the fifth year, I realized something: they were married to each other. They kept coming year after year. And no one else ever came.
78. BDB said the following at 12:18 PM on Sep 9:
Patrick (#72) wrote:
>>And, yes, we could say the same sort of stuff about American men, even Christian men, too. It's not as if Christian men are unaffected by the world's way of thinking, which includes feminism.<<
Oh - I should mention that the idea of men delaying marriage for career or education doesn't translate very well overseas, either. I can definitely see how never-married men, hanging out with their never-married peers in America could hit culture shock overseas. And that can force them to really think about if there's any good reason to wait. It kind of forces the issue to the forefront of consciousness in a way that doesn't happen nearly as much in America.
79. BDB said the following at 12:35 PM on Sep 9:
Kelly (#75) wrote:
>>Unless one party is willing to give up their culture and live their life/raise their family in the new culture, the two of you will be forever torn.<<
Or you can blend.
I grew up hearing about all the various places that various relatives travelled to. My grandparents have been everywhere but Antarctica. I grew up seeing their Japanese garden. It was only much later that I realized my German (literally from Germany) grandfather was adopting pieces of the cutures they visited together.
I was surprised the first time I went to Thanksgiving at someone else's house and realized that not every family had four types of red cabbage for a holiday meal (sweet, sour, warm and cold). It's a German thing.
But really, if two people come to the same place theologically, it's going to impact which parts of their culture they're going to emphasize - the centrality of alcohol comes to mind. If they choose to, they can blend traditions and that can be very rewarding. I honestly think that if two people are called to care for the poor, there are more similarities that cross cultures.
80. Mike said the following at 7:58 PM on Sep 9:
Chelsea -
I'm afraid you're attempting to distance yourself from feminism you brand as "radical", while simultaneously embracing its ideals by calling it "liberated" or "independent". Unfortunately, they can't be separated so easily.
Core feminist doctrine is based on the notion of independence, of liberation. Liberation from what? Independence from what? These questions are very important. When asked, they generally fall back to the roles God designed for the family - specifically, women's role as supporter, nurturer, mother, and advisor to the husband. These are seen as subservient, inferior, degrading, usually based on "Wives, submit to your husbands." However, what the feminists fail to gather is that the word "submit" could be more appropriately translated as "place oneself under the protection of". They usually also conveniently forget "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church."
You see, the Christian marriage model is one of service. The wife serves the husband's needs; the husband serves the wife's needs. In so doing, each is edified and lifted up, enabling them to give ever greater support. Yes, the man is identified as the leader of the household, but that is because of the nature of the emotional needs of men versus the emotional needs of women.
Men's roles as protector and provider are designed, by God, to meet women's need for security. In order to empower men to fulfill those roles, women are given the role of supporter and advisor. In other words, she can get her needs met best by supporting his ability to meet them for her. This does not make women inferior, or enslaved, contrary to feminist doctrine. It means that they have specific needs that are best met when the genders conform to God's purposes and give up the notion that they should do things their own way.
Pastor Greg Laurie is fond of saying, "Satan had an 'I' problem." In other words, he was too concerned with himself to look beyond his own interests - and was thrown out of Heaven for it. We humans inherited the same flaw as a result of the Fall. Eve, in stepping out from under Adam's protection (and God's), attempted to be "independent" and "liberated". In so doing, you could say Eve was the first feminist. (Adam didn't fulfill his role, either; he failed to step between Eve and the serpent; he didn't protect her when he should have.) It didn't work out so well. The step from "independent" to "radical" is very short indeed - because as soon as you assert your right to "independence", you've already thrown out the fundamental precept of God's prerogative to define your role. Everything else is just a matter of degree, not principle.
The desire for independence from God is the core of sin. It's not our right; it's a flaw, and can be a fatal one.
I'm sorry if this is disturbing, but we - all of us - have a duty to become servants. "Independence" and "liberation" are just like any other temptation: They sound good in the short term, but they will inevitably lead us down a very wide path to destruction. In seeking independence from God's design, we court disaster.
81. Charles H. said the following at 9:08 PM on Sep 9:
Chelsea #70 - Re: "you reply to it as though I were referring to just that--radical feminist women." I wouldn't say that. I'm not talking about the radical pro-abortion fringe, or the all-marriage-is-oppression wackos, or any such radicals. I'm talking about what has become the cultural norm for American women: the assumption that both husband and wife will have careers, that children will spend large amounts of time in daycare, that the woman has the position of authority in the family, and so forth. There is a clear difference between this and some foreign cultures whose women are popular with American men.
Would my choice of mate share my "intellectual qualifications?" Considering that the differences we're discussing center on culture instead of intellect or education, I don't see how it would even be an issue. The question isn't whether a given woman is smart or well-educated. It's what she chooses to do with her intelligence and education. It seems you're assuming that a well-educated woman 'should' choose career...
BDB #78 - Re: "Oh - I should mention that the idea of men delaying marriage for career or education doesn't translate very well overseas, either." Depends on the country. In India, for example, this is quite common.
82. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:54 PM on Sep 10:
The question isn't whether a given woman is smart or well-educated. It's what she chooses to do with her intelligence and education.
Well said...and my favorite assumption of all time:
It seems you're assuming that a well-educated woman 'should' choose career...
Chelsea, do you really believe that?
83. mary kate said the following at 2:59 PM on Sep 10:
BDB!!! Oh - I should mention that the idea of men delaying marriage for career or education doesn't translate very well overseas, either. I can definitely see how never-married men, hanging out with their never-married peers in America could hit culture shock overseas
Have you been to western europe lateley!!? They're as bad or worse than we are. I lived in Rome for a year, and spent time with Italians, Spanish, French, and others who think marriage is for later in life just like many americans do.
84. BDB said the following at 3:54 PM on Sep 10:
mary kate (#83) wrote:
>>Have you been to western europe lateley!!? <<
Valid point - I haven't. Had some folks from Sweden visit me. Come to think of it, you might be right that it's a Westerner thing.