Good Neighbor, Bad Neighbor
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 09/03/2008 at 4:32 PM
Last night a friend and I were chatting about the homeless problem in Seattle, where he lives.
"I don't get it," he said. "In my opinion, the church should have its doors open 24 hours a day for the homeless. I mean, that's what they're there for...to help the poor."
Then today, I read about a church—in Seattle, no less—that is doing just that. Unfortunately, it hasn't been easy.
Mercer Island United Methodist Church in suburban Seattle learned a difficult lesson: Serving the poor can mean offending your neighbor.
When the church decided to host Tent City—a traveling encampment of homeless people—on church property on a temporary basis, many in the affluent suburb were outraged.
Pastor Leslie Ann Knight recalls how a resident approached one of her church members, pointing aggressively. "Your church should be bombed."
Knight had not anticipated the severity of the backlash. "I was astonished by the sheer volume of complaints," she said.
Before Tent City opened, some Mercer Island residents even filed a lawsuit to prevent the encampment. The judge denied the request, and the camp opened on August 13. It serves some 100 occupants and receives supplies from multiple churches on the island.
The CT article speculates that the choice to host the camp may have cost churches some evangelistic opportunities with their affluent neighbors—which raises the question once again, "Who is my neighbor?"
"Our neighbors are those who need us," [Knight] said. "Jesus' teaching about loving your neighbor comes in the context of someone who was beaten and left at the side of the road."
The camp will stay open until November. It seems even for churches, helping the homeless is easier said than done.
1. BDB said the following at 5:51 PM on Sep 3:
Wow, on Mercer Island?
You should mention that the median household income on the island is $110,000. Lots of Microsoft Millionares live there...
2. Cassandra Marie said the following at 6:09 PM on Sep 3:
I am impressed by this effort, especially considering the opposition it faced. Kudos to them.
However, I'd like to point out that the church isn't there to help the poor. Its not that it can't do so, nor is it that its not a wonderful thing to do, but the primary purpose of the church is to worship God. Even good things, like serving the poor, are secondary purposes. Not that I am suggesting this church was wrong-- mainly cautioning against mistakenly misrepresenting the purpose of the church.
On another note-- homelessness is such a large problem in some areas. I wonder what other readers think is the best way for a christian (meaning an individual christian, as opposed to a church or organization) to approach this problem?
3. Rachael said the following at 6:13 PM on Sep 3:
Regarding 'helping the homeless', another thing to consider is the issue of limits. To what extent does the church give and help? Can those receiving the need eventually find Christ or/and help the ministry out? Is it okay for some people to take excessively? What about the long-term? Should some people be trained in basic budgeting skills, and does the church have a role in this? What kind of commitment would that look like? Would it just weigh one person down, or is there a group of people in the church that could follow through with this? What about when mental illness plays a role in one's need? Does a church just continually help the person even if the person is mean and demanding? We're to turn the other cheek...but to what extent...just things to think about, but involvement with ministry really can have positive effects, and we might not always be able to see or know exactly how God might be working in the volunteers or the community.
Anyway, I believe it can be a positive thing for a church to try to reach out to local community, and I think it would be neat if the 'local community' included the 'rich' as well as the poor.
Christ is needed to fix the problem of homelessness. While churches may help those in need with 'band-aid' solutions (applying a concept from the series on Biblical counseling), it would be neat if those 'band-aid' fixes could serve as a stepping stone to 'surgery' -- somehow linking them to Christ.
Positive things I've seen about outreach to the local community include the bringing together of people in a local community with 'church people' (game nights, meals, church, 'ministry') and also it is neat when people from the community being 'outreached to' come to church.
4. Matthew said the following at 8:04 PM on Sep 3:
Cassandra (#2),
You're right: the purpose of the church is to worship God. The problem is that there are 4 billion people (generously) who don't worship God but ought to, and so the church has a lot of people that need to join in on the fun. Service to the community is a really important way of reaching out to people so that they can worship God in spirit and in truth So that is one important motivation.
Another really crucial thing to consider is that corporate worship is far more than singing and a sermon (though those things are central and enormous important)-- it is the Gospel of Jesus lived out in the lives of His followers proclaiming His kingdom. Thus, this church that opened up Tent City was worshiping God by hosting these homeless people, as they were seeking to obey Jesus' commands to us in Matthew 25 and Matthew 6. They were reflecting His love and seeking to proclaim His glory by upholding and protecting the dignity of the people He created in His image.
Rachael (#3),
One would hope that any kind of ministry like this would be holistic, and you bring up a lot of good points. Helping the homeless will often involved providing mental health services or connecting the homeless with agencies that can provide them. Helping the homeless will often involve teaching responsible life and behavior and leading people to a relationship with Christ so that they can put away the harmful behaviors that keep them on the street (though certainly some might just need some budgeting help.)
A lot of your other questions involve the limits of giving, and I think those are questions that have to be considered on a case-by-case basis, with a lot of grace. God never turns us away when we have to rely on His generous provision for us (or when we take advantage of it), and in general that ought to be the attitude that we have towards those less fortunate than us. Since God's love is extended not to the "deserving," ours shouldn't be, either.
In a church context where there are relationships being built, I would only think that someone ought to be turned away if they were being manipulative, threatening, or completely unrepentant. Even in those cases, we ought to go out of our way to show love to them because God went out of His way to show love to us when we were His enemies.
As far as your bit on "the local community" goes, I've really seen this go both ways. There are some churches that are simply convinced that their "outreach" involves ministering only to their upper-class neighbors. There are also churches that spurn the "rich" in some self-deceived folly and don't care that people in nice houses still go to hell if they don't know Jesus. For me, I look at passages like Matthew 25 and see Jesus' emphasis as an indication of where we probably should devote more resources, depending of course on God's leading (I am not opposed at all to ministry to the rich, there are just far more souls that have physical needs, too.) Plus, Jesus was homeless, so that gives us a clue about who He wants us to identify with.
5. Rachael said the following at 9:22 PM on Sep 3:
Hi Matthew,
I seem to remember you responding to me on a similar topic long ago :). Good idea about holistic stuff. It would take a lot of time, people and resources to get to that level, but I suppose if ministries know about each other, they can refer people to each other. That might help jumpstart the process.
Yeah, a lot of peripheral issues are case-by-case ones. There will always be people who will take 'more than advantage' when there's opportunity to do so.
As for turning people away...yes, we should be loving to mean people. I'm not in a position to turn someone away from the ministry. I've never had to make such a decision and don't plan to. Extremely difficult personalities may at times be an issue in any ministry, but God is in control and can give wisdom and grace on a case-by-case basis. If a church is starting up certain ministries, it might be good to include men or/and people who know how to be firm with someone if necessary.
As for the local community, I don't think I've seen a ton of outreach targeting specifically the upper-class. I'd like to see more of a focus on 'everyone' has an 'outreach target'...whether that means a mom, a sister, an upper-class neighbor, a working class neighbor, a person who lives in an expensive motel because they are unable to rent an apartment, a person who lives on the street, a church member, the richest person on the planet, etc. I guess that doesn't make a lot of practical sense because 'ministries' often need a specific focus. I guess what I described in the first part of this paragraph is Ministry (big M) which can drive the ministry (small m). And by that I mean it would be good to have a desire to honor God in all one does for ALL people - saved or unsaved - (big M), but, practically speaking, ministries with the small m are often essential in accomplishing this purpose.
6. Texas Craig said the following at 9:39 PM on Sep 3:
Cassandra and Rachael, you both raise some excellent questions.
For me, this is a tough area. I strongly believe that we are to help the genuinely poor, but the question of "who is poor?" and "what limits are on that?" are both reasonable to ask.
For example, in scripture, Paul said that if a man will not work, then he should not eat. So, arguably, we should require people, to the extent they physically are able to, to wok for their food. That is not intended to be mean, but it is a reflection of the principle that people are devalued if they are simply given charity.
On the other hand, many homeless have mental illnesses which are the likely cause of their homelessness. If we are just feeding them and providing shelter, we are not addressing their true needs.
Moreover, I am skeptical of the extent of poverty we have in our country. How often do we hear of people starving to death here, or dying from lack of very basic medical care? Sure, it happens occasionally, but not that often. Compare that with many developing parts of the world and you see that many of our "poor" would be middle class elsewhere.
So, that raises the question of "should we focus our efforts for the poor to those who are truly needy outside of our country?" If we focus our efforts on those in our country that we deem "poor," then it can be akin to the millionaire buying a porsche for his middle-class neighbor because that person could only afford a Toyota.
I am not trying to be calloused about this, but it hurts my heart to see people desparately poor throughout the world, while we are feeding homeless people who choose not to work, or while we are blocking our borders keeping out immigrants who really want to work hard to provide basic opportunities for their families back in their home country.
I wish we had more of a global view of poverty, and thus directed our efforts more strategically.
As for helping the homeless in my community, my family puts together "care packs" that we hand out to beggars that we see. They include some basic food items, water, and a tract on the gospel, with my contact information if they want to find out more about the gospel or want more help. I do this because it is not costly (because most of my giving is devoted to evangelism, orphans, and the poor throughout the world), and because it provides a good example for my children to learn how to show compassion and love to others.
That's my $.02.
7. Adam said the following at 10:19 PM on Sep 3:
Kudos to the church for seeing a need and meeting it. Helping the poor is Biblical. Times are tough, and many hard-working upstanding people are just a couple paychecks away from being on the streets.
I'm not necessarily a fan of the location that they are trying to do the work in.
A significant homeless population in an area will tend to increase crime and decrease property values. It can also increase the anxiety of parents who won't let their kids out to play because of non-working adults just roaming the streets.
Shouldn't a church be trying to reach out to their neighbors in the immediate vicinity? I have yet to see a church purposefully plan a ministry to reach out to the upper class. I've seen plenty that target the poor, yet never the rich. I think it is sad that an entire segment of society is ignored like that.
8. BDB said the following at 12:18 AM on Sep 4:
Matthew (#4) wrote:
>>Plus, Jesus was homeless, so that gives us a clue about who He wants us to identify with.<<
Hmmm...carpenters? Or maybe all skilled tradesmen, such as commercial fishermen?
There's actually nowhere I've seen in the Bible that said Jesus grew up poor. He said out to treat the poor justly in lots of places. It's not that his parents couldn't afford the Inn, it was that there was no room.
We do have a tent city down here, too. There was recently a "clean-up," where the city forced everyone who wasn't a city resident (with a city driver's license) to leave, then moved everyone to a prepared space with rest rooms, trash facilities, etc. Controversial to kick out the non-residents and tow the non-working cars. But to the paper's credit, their multiple front-page stories really reminded everyone that homelessness exists in our area.
I do think that homeless outreach does require structure to be successful. Substance abuse and mental illness are not the same problem as people who got disabled and can't afford rent anymore. Each segment requires a different approach.
9. BDB said the following at 12:19 AM on Sep 4:
Oh, and as for the purpose of the church? Our pastor recently did a series on worship, pointing out that one of the ways that men worship is to give their hard-earned money to help the poor.
10. Charles H. said the following at 4:07 AM on Sep 4:
Although I'm always impressed by the attitude of "we will indeed put our money where our mouth is," I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by the specifics of this story. First off, why is the encampment in Mercer Island to start? As a commentator on the original article asked, why not put the homeless shelter where the homeless are? The OP does describe Tent City as a "travelling encampment" which leads me to think that it's hosted by a variety of churches in succession. But why, then, would churches with (what sounds like) large amounts of money not simply buy a permanent place in the inner city to make into a shelter? Is the purpose to shelter the homeless, or to "raise awareness"?
A shelter in a rough area of my city closed a year or two ago. I have to admit that if someone's answer to that were to open a temporary one to be hosted in a rich neighborhood and moved when the weather grows cold (November in Seattle...), I'd be scratching my head. If they were to simply reopen the old shelter, that would make more sense to me. Any people in Seattle care to comment?
11. Jo said the following at 6:23 AM on Sep 4:
Regarding what Cassandra Marie said, I agree with Matthew - serving God by doing what He asks of us in the world is an intrinsic part of our worship. One of the main words translated as 'worship' in the NT is latreno - to serve. The Bible tells us we are to help those around us, and this is part of our service to God and worship of Him. So helping the poor certainly isn't the church's only purpose, but it's a really important one.
12. John said the following at 7:03 AM on Sep 4:
"I don't get it," he said. "In my opinion, the church should have its doors open 24 hours a day for the homeless. I mean, that's what they're there for...to help the poor."
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
That is NOT what they're there for!
This is what they ARE there for:
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
It is up to us, the individuals, to minister to the lost, whether poor or rich, homeless or in mansions!
The church is there to "prepare God's people for works of service". The local church is NOT to be a soup kitchen. That is a ministry that can be started by people in the church, but that is not the function or responsibility of the pastor and leaders of the church.
"1In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
You see, the ministers can't be doing both, because there full time position requires them to be focused on God's word and then teaching it to others...namely, US! Then it is our job to be His hands and feet to the rest of the world.
This is why pastors burn out, trying to do too much OR why nobody gets saved but everyone gets fed physically but not spiritually. All too often, especially in inner cities, pastors and churches want to be "community organizers". Crusading to "save" their community. Well it starts by preaching the gospel and saving individuals one by one and then THEY go into the community and impact it for Christ.
Read the bible. It's amazing what you'll find in there.
It's such a shame that so many people put on socialists clothing claiming to be wearing a Christian dress.
This "Tent City", while well intentioned, is not biblical charity. Biblical charity is personal and face to face. Not an overwhelming "city" of people that mostly just benefit physically but aren't being challenged or convicted in their spirit man.
"connecting the homeless with agencies that can provide them."
Yes, that sounds good. Let "refer" them to non-christian organizations or pseudo-christian organizations that will "shrink" their heads.
"Plus, Jesus was homeless, so that gives us a clue about who He wants us to identify with."
Someone is getting way to interpretive here. He was not "homeless". He lived with his family until he was 30, then he traveled around ministering. It's not like he lost his home from poor decisions or sucumbed to an addiction. Give me a break.
I love how everyone always mentions the good samaritan when talking about ministering to the poor, but then go on to state that that story makes it "clear" that we should start some kind of "outreach" and "help" the "poor". The good samaritan did no such thing and that story cleary teaches us that we need to invest ourselves, as individuals, into other individuals lives to the extent we can.
Too bad most people just wanna feel good about giving soup out in a lunch line. Charity is far deeper than that and not just some voluntary activity on the weekend once a month!
Stop trying to "start" a "ministry" and just MINISTER!...to your neighbor, friend, family, etc. Next door, down the street, wherever. Stop trying to set up an "outreach" and just reach out your hand and invest in someone the love Christ has invested in you!
Remember, it's not about quantity, it's about quality. Not how many people you reach, but how deep is your reach to people! It is sometimes ugly, sometimes messy, requires sacrifice, like the good samaritan. It's not always convenient, but it's not supposed to be. It doesn't fit nice and neat into your planner. It shouldn't be front page news about a local "outreach".
13. shannon said the following at 7:15 AM on Sep 4:
I agree with the sentiment that the church needs to do something, but there's a call for us to be wise - innocent as doves, as shrewd as serpents. We can be outraged at how insensitive the suburbanites are (in one of the least Christian cities in the US, mind you), but where I used to have a soft heart, I've found a growing cynicism towards the homeless - especially with what I've seen here in Minneapolis.
On three separate occasions I saw hanging out smoking (one while holding the sign). How hard up can you really be if you're still spending cash on cigarettes? Also, I've watched them "change shifts" twice - one guy comes up and takes up his sign while the other guy walks off (one of these times he then lit a cigarette as he walked away). I've been hearing that these guys bring in a fair bit of money not doing anything but standing on the street corner.
I didn't always think like this, I guess I was rather naive. All I know is that to some extent there's a lot of mooching that goes on and as the church we have to care for the poor, but we should do so wisely.
There are genuine homeless that need help and we should seek them out, but there's nothing wrong with discerning when and how to do it. It's idealistic to think we can just fling open the doors of the church and without thought just start handing out. Our church loves the poor - supports ministries to the poor and has ways of handling the beggars that come so that they are practically helped.
Anyway, that was all a really long post to say, there's nothing wrong with being discerning.
14. Carrie (the original) said the following at 7:22 AM on Sep 4:
Plus, Jesus was homeless, so that gives us a clue about who He wants us to identify with.
Now, that's just bad theology. His "homelessness" was to demonstrate a point, but not the one you're trying to make.
People who are homeless today aren't perfect, but Jesus was perfection incarnate. People who are homeless today are homeless for a variety of reasons and not always of their own choosing. Jesus chose to be homeless for a variety of reasons, only some of which the human mind can comprehend and that's only with help of the Holy Spirit.
Homelessness is a tricky issue because some people do fall on hard times. However, there are also drug addicts and dealers who have no place to lay their head . . . so we should just be kind to them and give them a place to lay their "because Jesus was homeless"??
Are you joking???
There are some times when one needs to give of self and home because the someone needs it in order to see Jesus. There are times when other people need to be allowed to fall on their hind parts so that they can see that they are empty in and of themselves.
Bad theology won't aide you in telling the difference between the two.
15. Eliza said the following at 7:32 AM on Sep 4:
I think it would be amazing if the church was SO active in helping the poor/ homeless/ people in a tough spot that there was nothing left for the government to deal with. We'd solve all welfare problems right there.
However, I have a hard time believing that the Church is so committed to charity that that would actually happen.
Three cheers for Mercer Island United Methodist!
16. JuliaH said the following at 7:55 AM on Sep 4:
It is a noble idea to help the homeless by hosting a tent city; however, the reality is that encampments such as these bring many problems into the community with them.
Crime
Human filth (picture untreated sewage)
Disease
Lowered property values
Drugs
Vandalism and litter (picture used condoms and needles)
I live in a city where a tent city was allowed and the problems that came with it were severe and affected the entire community, not just those who hosted it. A modern Canadian city actually had to worry about the potential for cholera!
Ask yourself, would you be comfortable letting your kids play outside in your yard if it was immediately next to a place like that?
17. Brantley said the following at 7:56 AM on Sep 4:
Jesus really knew what he was saying when he made his eye of the needle statement.
As for who is your neighbor, your neighbor is the one in need. The poor need shelter and all need God. We can offer both but it is their choice to accept or not. How many people live their lives in church but never really made a commitment to God. They've never been challenged therefore they've never had to choose God's way over their own. I think that was a good example of putting God's will over the will of others. Even if they didn't like the change in their lifestyle, they can't help but notice the sacrifice and love the church is demonstrating. It may take a while but for most men, myself included, respect is very important for something I am going to follow. Flip flop or wishy washy beliefs just won't cut it.
Then again, the church could have considered the town they were in. I don't think the community is against helping the poor. They live by HOA mandates that says if their grass isn't a certain color green and above a certain height, they get fined. I live in an area not quite that bad but I left my trash at the end of the street 2 days after the trash man came. When I got back, I had a notice saying I would be fined if it wasn't moved immediately so I understand. They've worked and moved to an area that makes beauty the norm. In that case, the church could have made sure the homeless wouldn't harm or steal from adjacent properties and that the temporary shelter wasn't an eyesore.
For all the outdoors people out there, how would you feel if you were hiking in CO and someone decided to put a smog and sound pollution producing factory on the side of your favorite trail or camping spot? How about next to your house? If you're not a home owner, this doesn't seem as bad. You could always just move. When you buy, you're kind of stuck. You've invested a large portion of your finances to the house and it takes at least 4 years of living there to recoup your losses. People get crazy when their money is involved.
18. Sarah P. said the following at 8:14 AM on Sep 4:
Hmm... were those rich, complaining people members of the church? Did they even notice the church existed before Tent City sprung up? How would the church "evangelize" to them, if it chose to spend its resources that way?
Jesus hung out with tax collectors and sinners because, as He said, He came to save those who are sick, not well. Women and the poor were always especially drawn to the message of Christ because they were marginalized in this world.
Cassandra (#2) said: [T]he primary purpose of the church is to worship God. Even good things, like serving the poor, are secondary purposes.
Didn't Jesus say that serving the poor and those in prison was exactly the same thing as serving Him? I think what that church is doing is wonderful.
19. Laura said the following at 9:46 AM on Sep 4:
Wow, those of you who think that the church's purpose is not in part to serve the poor, have you read Matthew 25? It's pretty clear from that text (not to mention about 2,000 other verses) that our salvation is in some way evidenced in the way we treat those who are vulnerable.
As for the lost opportunities to be a witness to the affluent community, I don't buy it. If pure religion is evidenced in our treatment of the least of these, then this church is a shining testimony to God's grace and love for all people. If the neighborhood rejects it, it's because they are rejecting God. Nowhere does Jesus ever tell us that we're supposed to be about the job of making people feel comfortable in order to bring them to belief. He's forever telling people that the way of the cross is the difficult life.
20. mary kate said the following at 9:56 AM on Sep 4:
i think it's kind of sad how many comments have popped up about how homeless people are drug addicts, or don't want to help themselves, or will cause property values to go down. SERIOUSLY!?
unless you are free of addictions of any kind (shopping? the internet? unhealthy dating relationships), always spend your money wisely, and are basically sinless, you need to step off. you don't know the whole story... a story that probably includes abuse or neglect, mental illness, fear, violence, and more.
god has called us to love and serve. a thousand worship songs and putting money in an offering plate are great, but we're supposed to get our hands dirty.
and yes, there are poorer people throughout the world, people who don't have the most basic necessities. so, just because someone isn't the absolute worst off, we don't help him or her?
it's simple. love and serve. love and serve everyone. your enemies, the least of these, your friends, your neighbors, people on the other side of the world. some people will love and serve differently than you will. who are we to judge?
kudos to mercer island for serving people. kudos to them for making people uncomfortable.
21. Suzanne said the following at 10:01 AM on Sep 4:
John (#12),
I think you make a good point that helping the poor is not the ONLY purpose of the church, or its primary purpose. I was not presenting my friend's statement as Gospel truth either. That's his opinion—and one coming from someone who is not a professing believer.
However, helping the poor is a responsibility of the church and should be a priority:
Gal. 2:9-10: "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
"All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
Whether this is happening one-on-one or corporately among the body as resources allow, seems to matter little. The bottom line is that it is the responsibility of believers to give to the poor. This concept is throughout Scripture.
I don't believe it's fair to say that what this church is doing is unbiblical. As far as we can tell, they are not forsaking other responsibilities. They are simply doing what they can to address the needs of the poor.
22. DP said the following at 10:03 AM on Sep 4:
Agreed that "helping the poor" isn't the church's (we are the church) main objective. However, it is a form of worship to our God to do so.
As for the "tent city," I'm not saying that this is the best idea, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "let's help the poor (just so long as things don't get messy and real for me)"
Are property values really the thing we should be worrying about?
Are our children seeing homeless people really a terrible thing?
I think that maybe we need to think of what we have done to God (even post "conversion")
-turned from Him
-used Him
-sinned against Him
-etc.
But yet He was and is willing to accept us for who we are in the place we are. If we treat people as God has treated us, things ARE going to get messy, but we do it becuase God has done it for us.
(and I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't be discerning, it just seems like to many Christians (myself included) spend lots of time "discerning" and too little time acting)
I applaud this church for at least trying to do something instead of asking "Who is my neighbor?" (in order to justify themselves)
23. RB said the following at 10:13 AM on Sep 4:
An overwhelming number of homeless people have issues with mental illness as a result of drug use. I am not surprised that members of that community were outraged that a church would invite these high risk people into their neighborhood. They have children to protect!
A tent city might sound like a nice idea if you haven't actually seen one. I have, and they are hotbeds of disease, filth and drug use.
I think a much better idea would be to get involved with mentoring youth, particulary those who are in foster care (these young people have much higher rates of future homelessness than others) and getting involved in drug rehabillitation programs.
All a tent city does is give a homeless person a temporary place to live outdoors and temporary food. They do nothing to address the root problems of drug addiction and/or mental illness.
24. Rachael said the following at 10:17 AM on Sep 4:
About John (12)'s 2nd to last paragraph... Yes, "ministry" isn't necessarily the same thing as "ministering", and "outreach" the same as "reaching out". Interesting to think about that....
At the same time, I am NOT anti-ministry or anti-outreach. NOT AT ALL.
But I do think it good to think about "ministry" with an open mind and realize that even though it may appear that we are doing good, that doing the activity in and of itself does not necessarily mean we are honoring God.
I guess I am very aware of that, maybe because of the input I've received and because I have lived life where I've been very "involved" in stuff. But I somehow realize that that's not everything.
My heart has had tendencies to get drawn to the 'big', and perhaps moreso in the past...
But you realize, that when you do the big (maybe move to another country or get involved w/ an 'exciting' ministry'), or maybe afterwards, that really, that's not all there is to life.
It's important to not equate activity and excitement with spiritual growth and expect to receive ultimate satisfaction from it.
Ministry and doing big things can be 'exciting'. And it can be okay and very good to do exciting things. Not everyone is meant for the mundane and invisible. And the exciting involves the mundane. I realize that.
It's okay to feel excited. And some people may do the same type of ministry for a lifetime, and that dedication, if coupled with humility and the intention to bring glory to God, would be AWESOME. But others of us will be involved w/ different types of ministries throughout our lives. Those different ministries may change as our life circumstances and hearts change.
But the ideal, constant Ministry hope would be to live out our faith in a way that honors Christ 24-7, whether that includes established "ministry" or not...
25. obewan said the following at 10:24 AM on Sep 4:
My fancy church in the suburbs only gets involved with the homeless in the inner city. We commute there to help with meals at a secular homeless shelter. It is an official intervention program with lots of corporate sponsors. They have a staff of liscenced social workers who get involved in effecting real change for many of the clients. Sometimes I wish they could come to our church though since I think they might receive more love. As for drug addicts, we have a very huge Celebrate Recovery ministry that meets on Sat nights. A good meal is served but they pay their own way with $5. Most of the people in that ministry have jobs.
26. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:39 AM on Sep 4:
The people who are disagreeing with "That's what the church is for" are defining church as a building with some people in charge.
John, the verses you referenced reference the CHURCH - the people that fill the building...not the building itself.
So yes, the church (as people) is here to serve others, to help eachother grow, and to worship God.
That's what we're here for. That is the CHURCH...US.
27. Tamara said the following at 4:51 PM on Sep 4:
I'm always glad to hear stories about people taking the time to try to help those who are homeless and poor. It's something I think that the church (not the building, the people) needs to be more involved in. As someone who works with a ministry that does seek to help the homeless, the poor, and the addicted, I'm often amazed at the lack of understanding of the real issues of some people I talk to (both inside and outside the church).
They have no contact with what is going on and yet people seem to think they know how to fix the problem. On the surface, yes, it looks easy, make them work (ie. help them get a job) and then help them get a house. But the problem goes so much deeper than that. Many of these people have other problems that must be dealt with first. They may be addicted to drugs and need someone to care and be willing to help them walk through the process of breaking free from that addiction. They may have a mental challenges that means they will have problems holding down a regular job and managing their own money. Or any other number of situations. It's so much more than making them work.
Tent cities may not be the most effective way to help these people. It provides little more than a place to sleep and food. But, at least it's a start. Maybe if more people understood the scope of the problem then more effective solutions could be found.
Ultimately it comes down to the issue of loving people. Jesus calls us to love our neighbour as we love ourselves and to love our enemies. As the church (again the people, not the building) we need to love everyone . . . from the upper class person who has all the "toys" to homeless person we pass on the street. Each of them is made in the image of God and deserves to be loved on that basis alone.
Yes, drug addiction and homelessness can mean that people will do things that can cause us or our property harm. But, I have also seen the power of love (sometimes tough love that draws a line for them for possibly the first time ever in their lives) can do in these people's lives. The key to remember is that love isn't just giving them whatever they want. It's letting them know that someone cares enough to put up that boundary line that they shouldn't be crossing.
28. Charles H. said the following at 6:29 PM on Sep 4:
I think I'm still missing why this church is going through all the PR problems to put a homeless outreach in a place where it sounds like there are very few homeless. This idea clearly gives offense to those who live around the church, and when that happens, I think we should step back and ask whether we could accomplish the same charitable goal in a way that doesn't turn others away from the church.
29. Ryan said the following at 12:48 AM on Sep 5:
Don't over think this. "12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid.
13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." (Luke 14:12)See also Luke 7:22-23/Matthew 11:4-6 All talk about the poor. We are called to preach the gospel to the poor, and to help them. There are technical aspects as to how far and how much, but the truth is, if you are asking those questions, the answers are probably to little and not much.
30. Matthew said the following at 8:58 AM on Sep 5:
Carrie (the original) (#14),
The point of Jesus being homeless was not, of course, that we should all be homeless or that homelessness is good or we should always do nice things for homeless people because Jesus was homeless. I hope that that's not what my comment conveyed, and I'm sorry that I didn't draw that point out more (a lot of people don't realize that Jesus was homeless, or at least they don't connect that to much that's meaningful.) Theologically, I think that the meaning of Jesus' choice to be homeless was the impact it had on His ministry, the exemplification of His humility, and his identification with the poor and the outcasts.
Rachael (#5 and #24),
I think you're spot-on with your thoughts about ministry. I'm right with you about the interplay between the big M and the little m. Mark Driscoll likes to talk about "air war" (preaching, teaching) and "ground war" (individuals ministering to other individuals.) But even in the ground war, you can extend the analogy and say that you've got tanks, humvees, and foot soldiers... there are ministries that will be "official" to the point of having a logo because a lot of times you need a context to minister to people-- whether they are physically hungry and need a meal or spiritually hungry and coming to a divorce recovery group (and the list goes on and on.) That context provides an opportunity for Gospel sharing and love. Sometimes ministry is just hanging out and talking with your neighbors, classmates, or co-workers. The point is that we ought to be reaching out with the love of Christ to people however we can, whenever we can, in whatever context we find ourselves in, and in whatever way is helpful to them.
31. m perrucci said the following at 7:07 PM on Sep 5:
What did Jesus say? Help the poor if it is ok with your neighbors? Feed the hungry if they are not offensive? Clothe the naked if the timing is right? How can you be Christians if you don't follow Jesus?
32. Vanessa said the following at 10:08 PM on Sep 5:
Unfortunately, being subject to the local government often means being restricted. Once, a group of my friends had a bunch of hamburgers donated by McDonalds for them to hand out to homeless people. They were stopped by a police officer because there is a law within city limits stating that feeding of more than 25 people requires a permit.
Assimilating people into society with not only food and shelter, but also religious training, job training, proper work attire, and access to reliable transportation should be the goal of any homeless ministry. Kind of like the old saying...give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day but teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.
Some people are homeless because of bad choices that they made (millionaires who lose everything to gambling or drugs) and some are victims of circumstances (foster children growing up wards of the state without a stable home life and examples to follow). For some, panhandling IS their job, and that is deceptive and laziness.
The church can't help everyone, unfortunately. The church CAN do a lot more if people making up the church volunteer their time, talents, effort, and resources to train anyone willing to make a change and be released from poverty.
33. John said the following at 3:23 PM on Sep 6:
That is NOT what it is there for! The church universal or the church building.
We are to share the gospel with everyone.
34. Leah said the following at 8:17 PM on Sep 8:
mary kate,
You can't just say "you're a sinner, so you can't criticise other sinners too". That's ridiculous.
The point is, that while there are some homeless people who are homeless through no fault of their own, there are also many whose own fault it is that they're homeless.
Living in a city with a homeless population, I can tell you for a fact that a huge chunk of them aren't trying to help themselves. They are drunkards who refuse the help of welfare. I met an indigenous lady while on jury duty who works for one of our welfare organisations (Centrelink, for an Aussies out there) and she liaises with the homeless indigenous people in our city. She herself said many of these people refuse to go to interviews that get arranged for them (whether they be job interviews or interviews for welfare) and refuse to pay for the proper care of their children, yet they all manage to afford mobile phones.
Yes, we can still serve these people. It doesn't mean letting them walk all over us and giving them everything when they simply can't be stuffed doing it themselves.
35. DP said the following at 8:57 AM on Sep 9:
Leah (34)
Not saying you aren't right, but how did/does God treat you when you do those things to him?
36. John said the following at 7:23 AM on Sep 17:
#31,
perruci,
Be careful. Other posters might attack you for being "arrogant", "causing dissention", or "not being Christian".