Spiritual Eye Exam by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 08/20/2008 at 4:26 PM

In today's Boundless article "Seeing God," David Barshinger provides a great overview of sanctification. If that word tempts you to tune out, hang with me for a minute. In the article, Barshinger makes a strong case for the connection between striving for holiness and "seeing God." To begin, he considers what this holiness looks like:

Much of what defines holiness in the Christian life is quite plain from Scripture. A person controlled by the Holy Spirit should not be getting drunk on Friday nights, should not be having sex with her boyfriend, should not be lying about his hours worked on a timesheet, should not be bursting out in furious tirades — and the list goes on.

Yet a great deal of the Christian life is not as clear-cut as we might wish. Scripture spells out many moral questions and gives wise principles for living ethically, but it doesn't give five-step plans for solving every issue we face, and it even recognizes that, because of personal conscience, certain activities are acceptable for some Christians but not others (1 Corinthians 8). Talk about complex!

Here's the thing. Even the "non-negotiables" Barshinger lists in his first paragraph seem to be up for debate among Christians my age. A "do whatever you want under grace" reaction to legalism has cropped up. This makes the gray areas even murkier. Even the simplistic "What Would Jesus Do?" falls short as a recipe for pleasing God:

The WWJD question doesn't take into consideration how different Jesus was from us; He had divine authority and ability to do things we can't or shouldn't do, which clouds the simplistic WWJD question even further. Instead, we need to ask the Father what we should do, cultivate the wisdom of Christ, and follow the Holy Spirit's guidance.

I think in our desire to part with legalism, we've become numb to holiness. We don't always care enough to weed the bad — or that which does not sanctify — out of our lives. It takes discipline and sacrifice for sure. But the rewards are great as our consciences and hearts are made tender to the purposes of God. Barshinger gives this advice for balancing holiness and grace:

Instead of creating our own qualification lists for who's in and who's not, we need greater humility. We need to resist passing judgment too quickly, listening to the concerns others raise about particular activities, but also praying for wisdom to honor Christ in our decisions. Our aim is neither legalistic nor licentious living.

The importance of sanctification (there's that word again) is clear. Hebrews 12:14 says: "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." My desire is that my generation would be one that sees God clearly.

Spiritual Eye Exam by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 08/20/2008 at 4:26 PM

In today's Boundless article "Seeing God," David Barshinger provides a great overview of sanctification. If that word tempts you to tune out, hang with me for a minute. In the article, Barshinger makes a strong case for the connection between striving for holiness and "seeing God." To begin, he considers what this holiness looks like:

Much of what defines holiness in the Christian life is quite plain from Scripture. A person controlled by the Holy Spirit should not be getting drunk on Friday nights, should not be having sex with her boyfriend, should not be lying about his hours worked on a timesheet, should not be bursting out in furious tirades — and the list goes on.

Yet a great deal of the Christian life is not as clear-cut as we might wish. Scripture spells out many moral questions and gives wise principles for living ethically, but it doesn't give five-step plans for solving every issue we face, and it even recognizes that, because of personal conscience, certain activities are acceptable for some Christians but not others (1 Corinthians 8). Talk about complex!

Here's the thing. Even the "non-negotiables" Barshinger lists in his first paragraph seem to be up for debate among Christians my age. A "do whatever you want under grace" reaction to legalism has cropped up. This makes the gray areas even murkier. Even the simplistic "What Would Jesus Do?" falls short as a recipe for pleasing God:

The WWJD question doesn't take into consideration how different Jesus was from us; He had divine authority and ability to do things we can't or shouldn't do, which clouds the simplistic WWJD question even further. Instead, we need to ask the Father what we should do, cultivate the wisdom of Christ, and follow the Holy Spirit's guidance.

I think in our desire to part with legalism, we've become numb to holiness. We don't always care enough to weed the bad — or that which does not sanctify — out of our lives. It takes discipline and sacrifice for sure. But the rewards are great as our consciences and hearts are made tender to the purposes of God. Barshinger gives this advice for balancing holiness and grace:

Instead of creating our own qualification lists for who's in and who's not, we need greater humility. We need to resist passing judgment too quickly, listening to the concerns others raise about particular activities, but also praying for wisdom to honor Christ in our decisions. Our aim is neither legalistic nor licentious living.

The importance of sanctification (there's that word again) is clear. Hebrews 12:14 says: "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." My desire is that my generation would be one that sees God clearly.

Comments

[1. Texas Craig said the following at 5:07 PM on Aug 20:]

1

Good article and good post. Sanctification is something that we need to focus on more as believers. Truly, we are to be in the world, but not of the world.

My hope is that the body of Christ will start focusing on sanctification as more than simply involving the usual litany of sins that receive attention (sexual immorality, drunknness, lying, anger, etc.). Those are important, but those are kind of obvious, and we should move to deeper things (how we spend our time, money, talents, how we serve others). To me, the idea of sanctification involves a concept with two components. Namely, sanctification involves (1) being set apart (2) for a purpose. It is easy for us to focus too much on one of these components without the other.

For example, one might might focus on simply being set apart, i.e., being holy, without then using their holiness to go into the world and take the good news of Jesus and showing people that God truly can make us a new creation, to live a life of love. On the other hand, another person might focus on the purpose we are to fulfill (going into the world and showing love to all people), without truly being holy in their own life. We need to do both.

If one considers us as "vessels" of the Holy Spirit, then consider it this way. Being holy without having a heart of service toward others is like cleaning the dish, but then setting it aside and never using it. What good is a clean dish that you will never use? On the other hand, serving others without attempting to be holy in our own life is like using a dirty dish to serve food. It can be done, but it usually will result in the food getting tainted (thus, some nasty food being served).

Let us be clean dishes that are used for a purpose. Namely, let us be holy for the purpose of being the body of Christ, serving and taking his love to a dark world.

Peace and Grace!

[2. a sassy sister said the following at 9:50 PM on Aug 20:]

2

Texas Craig,

Thank you for such a clear response in regards to this topic. The one thing that concerns me personally in regards to this issue is, why am I pursuing this? Am I doing it because that's what other people say I should be doing, or because it pleases God and it fulfills His purposes?

[3. Rachael said the following at 10:37 AM on Aug 21:]

3

Growing up in pretty hardcore "fundy" churches, the whole process and definition of sanctification was always made pretty unpalatable by the weemingly exclusive focus on externals. But a really great book called "Birthright" by David Needham totally transformed my thinking in this regard. Needham's premise that the process of sanctification is a process of becoming what we already are - appropriating Christ's nature, given to us through the Holy Spirit, and walking in the confidence that, if we are His child, we are already completely pleasing to Him, for His Son's sake. It has TOTALLY transformed my thinking, and interestingly, brought about more growth, and, yes, holiness, than ever before.

[4. Suzanne said the following at 1:32 PM on Aug 21:]

4

Rachael,

Professor Needham was one of my college professors! I love that godly man. And his book "Birthright" is very good.

[5. Darren said the following at 1:34 PM on Aug 21:]

5

Nice article. I think Suzanne is "dead on." The distressing thing is that in our post-modern world, so many of the things that I once thought were irrefutable and undebateable seem suddenly open for debate.

People draw the conclusion that if the Bible doesn't expressly say its wrong, then maybe its alright. Others simply say, that the Bible's admonitions to live a Holy life are "cultural" and therefore not relevant to us in the same way they were relevant in Biblical times. Others compartmentalize their lives into spiritual and secular and are quite satisfied with living one life in church and another one away from church, this despite the obvious contradictions. Overall, the end result is that it often seems that we are more interested in having the license to live the way we want, rather than focused on "How do I please God?" and "Does this please God?"

Then if people feel that they are being "judged" then they simply pull up their stakes and move to the church across the street. What has been accomplished there?

In the end, there are no neat tie it into a bow answers. I wish there were. It would surely make Christian life easier. I don't think that Christians behaving like legalistic, judgmental kill-joys is the answer. idea that we shoulWe as Christians need to be defined as people who love Christ, not simply as people who walk around with list of rules on what "not to do." At least part of the answer is that we need to have thoughtful teaching in our churches that speaks to the issue of living holy lives and why we should live a holy life.

[6. Julia H said the following at 4:52 PM on Aug 21:]

6

Sanctification is less about what we do and more about who we are.

It is Christ who is sanctifying us. We don't become sanctified by our own actions any more than we can be saved by our own actions. It is the blood of Christ that washes us clean and renews our hearts daily.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5: 17)

...being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom. 8: 29-30)

[7. Rachael said the following at 7:18 PM on Aug 21:]

7

Suzanne - You went to Multnomah? What years? My husband went there and also had Prof. Needham, who he still can't talk about without tearing up. He says Needham is the most godly man he ever knew. Sounds like he was onto something... :)

[8. Texas Craig said the following at 8:38 PM on Aug 21:]

8

Julia (#6):

While I agree in part with your post, I disagree to the extent that you imply we have nothing to do with our sanctification. I think 2 Peter 1:3-10 explains the interplay between the Spirit and our role perfectly:

"3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Clearly, our ability to live a holy life comes only by the Spirit of God. But, at the same time, we must choose to submit to that power daily and walk by the Spirit. That aspect involves action by us (as evidenced by the phrases "make every effort" "if you possess" "be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure" and "if you do these things.") There are many more verses that make it clear that we have responsibility to choose daily to be holy and set apart. So, yes, we do have a role in our sanctification - not in the sense of how God may see us (i.e., imputed righteousness), but in how we actually live daily (i.e., whether our lives match our identity).

Peace!

[9. Rachael said the following at 8:45 AM on Aug 22:]

9

Re: the article

*I appreciate Barshinger's last line about God's Word helping "navigate those inevitable nebulous clouds". I'm sure I'll always encounter gray areas, but, if I'm filled more with the Word, I might be better equipped to sensitivity and understanding. The fear of the Lord is wisdom.

*I also appreciate Barshinger's openness about how a verse bothered him, but that he later felt peace. I'm not completely resolved about a few verses, like 1 John 1:6. I believe sanctification is important, but I wonder about recurring sin. We have been saved by grace, yet works are still very important. It is complex.

re: comment #1, 2nd paragraph

*I also think it would be neat if Christians at large would think more about the 'invisible'ish sins and realize that it's not just the 'major sins'...perhaps the focus on major sins is more prevalent in certain geographical areas or communities than in my own, but it can still be there. I'm reading a book called "Respectable Sins: Confronting the Sins We Tolerate," by Jerry Bridges. Also a passage that can help us remember that our "minor" sins are actually major is found in Matthew 5:21-36.

[10. Suzanne said the following at 9:38 AM on Aug 22:]

10

Rachael,

I was there 1996-2000. I took Needham for Theology Proper and Prophets. Actually, David Needham was just in Colorado last summer for the alumni event and gave a terrific message. I mentioned him in a recent article I wrote: http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001753.cfm

[11. Julia H said the following at 10:23 AM on Aug 22:]

11

Texas Craig, thanks for your post. I totally agree that:

"Clearly, our ability to live a holy life comes only by the Spirit of God. But, at the same time, we must choose to submit to that power daily and walk by the Spirit. That aspect involves action by us (as evidenced by the phrases "make every effort" "if you possess" "be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure" and "if you do these things.") There are many more verses that make it clear that we have responsibility to choose daily to be holy and set apart. So, yes, we do have a role in our sanctification - not in the sense of how God may see us (i.e., imputed righteousness), but in how we actually live daily (i.e., whether our lives match our identity)."

However, I do feel that sometimes genuinely saved people can begin to question their salvation when, like Paul in Romans 7, they struggle with their fleshly tendencies. I guess I just wanted to remind people that even if our accuser begins to assault us and we stumble, we are still "more than conquerors" through the blood of the Lamb! I want to encourage everyone here.

Thank the Lord that He does not leave us in our unregenerate state, but continues to work His will in and through us, until it is completed! If we submit to Him and truly allow our hearts to change, we really will become the perfected saints that Christ so desires. It does require effort on our part, but we need to realize that our efforts are futile without His Spirit working through us. Keeping the law is impossible and will not lead us to sanctification any more than it saved us, but God does call us to holiness. It is a holiness that is complete and involves not only our actions, but our character, affections, thinking, will and our entire being! It is so much better than just being made able to follow a list of rules. We will literally BE TRANSFORMED!

Even we stumble He is able to keep us from falling. Remember that we ought not to keep on sinning that grace may abound, but that God does not abandon us to live out our calling on our own.

Sorry for the long post, but I get really excited about this topic. I am so weighed down by my sin sometimes and when I am reminded of God's perfect grace and mercy I find that I can truly hope to become what God intended all along. It really is wonderful.

[12. BDB said the following at 11:06 AM on Aug 22:]

12

Uh - oh - there's two Rachael's now.

I actually remembered Matthew 5:25 about agreeing with your adversary...right after getting into a fight in high school. I actually asked the principal to leave his office for a few minutes so I could talk to the guy. We worked out an agreement to settle our differences...and the other guy didn't go to jail. It seems he was already on probation for something. He never bothered me again, either.

I got into graduate school anyway.

[13. Texas Craig said the following at 1:32 PM on Aug 22:]

13

Julia, thanks for clarifying! Given your expanded comments, I see us very much in agreement, and I think you make a great point about the struggle with our sinful nature and yet the power of God at work in us through His Spirit. I take comfort in 1 Corinthians 4:2-4:

"2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me."

I overlooked that passage so often, until just recently. To paraphrase what I see Paul saying there is this:

I strive to honor God as best I can, but I know I still am not perfect. Yet, I do not judge myself for my failings, rather I put my life into God's hands knowing that He knows my weaknesses but also knows the desire of my heart and will judge me accordingly.

So, let us live up to what we have already attained. namely, God sees us as a new creation and we should choose daily to live accordingly.

Peace and Grace!

[14. Katrece said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 24:]

14

I John & Post #6

Sorry, my post will be long too; but I'm also very excited about this topic.

Julia, I too struggled with I John, chapter one, but then I got to be part of a group study on I John; as part of our study we looked at the original Greek tenses. God's word is so awesome!

I John 1:5-10:
5"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Here comes the really cool part...

In verse 6, the verb means: walking in darkness. The word for, "walk" is a present active participle. This describes non-believers.

In verse 7, John's talking about/to true believers who will certainly struggle as they live here on earth.
Verse 7 is for true believers, those of us who are walking in the light.

"Walk," and some other verbs in this passage, are present active participles. John's speaking of a continuing, sinful lifestyle. He's speaking to those who are not confessing their sins, once they do fall, and returning to the light. Unlike true believers, there has never been any light in them.

But those of us who have truly believed, continue to walk in the light and we remain in Christ (John 15). We continue to have fellowship with other believers. And Christ continues to cleanse us from all our sins.

I used to always read I John and question what it meant. I would wonder, "Are my friends who claim to be Christians, but for years have evidenced no fruit or sought Christ's forgiveness, truly believers of Christ?" I John puts the heart of believers at rest and convicts those who don't truly believe (like some of my friends who claim to be believers but are walking in darkness).

[15. Rachael said the following at 9:27 AM on Aug 25:]

15

Katrece (14),

Thanks for addressing 1 John. I'm not at complete peace with 1:6. I feel like people and myself continue to walk in darkness even after conversion, and the majority of my sin seems to happen after coming to a saving knowledge of Him since I've been a Christian most of my life (seeming conversion happened at age 3, though I know I didn't fully understand some crucial stuff). My old self has mostly been mixed with the new. And if people don't think they are walking in darkness they might not be attentive to certain subtle persistent sin.

To some degree I wonder about salvation and persistent sin. What if there is a bunch of fruit in a believer's life but still frequently recurring sins of the heart, mind, and/or actions?

In my heart I know it is be grace that one is saved, through faith. Still, though, it's something to think about...

[1. Texas Craig said the following at 5:07 PM on Aug 20:]

1

Good article and good post. Sanctification is something that we need to focus on more as believers. Truly, we are to be in the world, but not of the world.

My hope is that the body of Christ will start focusing on sanctification as more than simply involving the usual litany of sins that receive attention (sexual immorality, drunknness, lying, anger, etc.). Those are important, but those are kind of obvious, and we should move to deeper things (how we spend our time, money, talents, how we serve others). To me, the idea of sanctification involves a concept with two components. Namely, sanctification involves (1) being set apart (2) for a purpose. It is easy for us to focus too much on one of these components without the other.

For example, one might might focus on simply being set apart, i.e., being holy, without then using their holiness to go into the world and take the good news of Jesus and showing people that God truly can make us a new creation, to live a life of love. On the other hand, another person might focus on the purpose we are to fulfill (going into the world and showing love to all people), without truly being holy in their own life. We need to do both.

If one considers us as "vessels" of the Holy Spirit, then consider it this way. Being holy without having a heart of service toward others is like cleaning the dish, but then setting it aside and never using it. What good is a clean dish that you will never use? On the other hand, serving others without attempting to be holy in our own life is like using a dirty dish to serve food. It can be done, but it usually will result in the food getting tainted (thus, some nasty food being served).

Let us be clean dishes that are used for a purpose. Namely, let us be holy for the purpose of being the body of Christ, serving and taking his love to a dark world.

Peace and Grace!

[2. a sassy sister said the following at 9:50 PM on Aug 20:]

2

Texas Craig,

Thank you for such a clear response in regards to this topic. The one thing that concerns me personally in regards to this issue is, why am I pursuing this? Am I doing it because that's what other people say I should be doing, or because it pleases God and it fulfills His purposes?

[3. Rachael said the following at 10:37 AM on Aug 21:]

3

Growing up in pretty hardcore "fundy" churches, the whole process and definition of sanctification was always made pretty unpalatable by the weemingly exclusive focus on externals. But a really great book called "Birthright" by David Needham totally transformed my thinking in this regard. Needham's premise that the process of sanctification is a process of becoming what we already are - appropriating Christ's nature, given to us through the Holy Spirit, and walking in the confidence that, if we are His child, we are already completely pleasing to Him, for His Son's sake. It has TOTALLY transformed my thinking, and interestingly, brought about more growth, and, yes, holiness, than ever before.

[4. Suzanne said the following at 1:32 PM on Aug 21:]

4

Rachael,

Professor Needham was one of my college professors! I love that godly man. And his book "Birthright" is very good.

[5. Darren said the following at 1:34 PM on Aug 21:]

5

Nice article. I think Suzanne is "dead on." The distressing thing is that in our post-modern world, so many of the things that I once thought were irrefutable and undebateable seem suddenly open for debate.

People draw the conclusion that if the Bible doesn't expressly say its wrong, then maybe its alright. Others simply say, that the Bible's admonitions to live a Holy life are "cultural" and therefore not relevant to us in the same way they were relevant in Biblical times. Others compartmentalize their lives into spiritual and secular and are quite satisfied with living one life in church and another one away from church, this despite the obvious contradictions. Overall, the end result is that it often seems that we are more interested in having the license to live the way we want, rather than focused on "How do I please God?" and "Does this please God?"

Then if people feel that they are being "judged" then they simply pull up their stakes and move to the church across the street. What has been accomplished there?

In the end, there are no neat tie it into a bow answers. I wish there were. It would surely make Christian life easier. I don't think that Christians behaving like legalistic, judgmental kill-joys is the answer. idea that we shoulWe as Christians need to be defined as people who love Christ, not simply as people who walk around with list of rules on what "not to do." At least part of the answer is that we need to have thoughtful teaching in our churches that speaks to the issue of living holy lives and why we should live a holy life.

[6. Julia H said the following at 4:52 PM on Aug 21:]

6

Sanctification is less about what we do and more about who we are.

It is Christ who is sanctifying us. We don't become sanctified by our own actions any more than we can be saved by our own actions. It is the blood of Christ that washes us clean and renews our hearts daily.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5: 17)

...being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom. 8: 29-30)

[7. Rachael said the following at 7:18 PM on Aug 21:]

7

Suzanne - You went to Multnomah? What years? My husband went there and also had Prof. Needham, who he still can't talk about without tearing up. He says Needham is the most godly man he ever knew. Sounds like he was onto something... :)

[8. Texas Craig said the following at 8:38 PM on Aug 21:]

8

Julia (#6):

While I agree in part with your post, I disagree to the extent that you imply we have nothing to do with our sanctification. I think 2 Peter 1:3-10 explains the interplay between the Spirit and our role perfectly:

"3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Clearly, our ability to live a holy life comes only by the Spirit of God. But, at the same time, we must choose to submit to that power daily and walk by the Spirit. That aspect involves action by us (as evidenced by the phrases "make every effort" "if you possess" "be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure" and "if you do these things.") There are many more verses that make it clear that we have responsibility to choose daily to be holy and set apart. So, yes, we do have a role in our sanctification - not in the sense of how God may see us (i.e., imputed righteousness), but in how we actually live daily (i.e., whether our lives match our identity).

Peace!

[9. Rachael said the following at 8:45 AM on Aug 22:]

9

Re: the article

*I appreciate Barshinger's last line about God's Word helping "navigate those inevitable nebulous clouds". I'm sure I'll always encounter gray areas, but, if I'm filled more with the Word, I might be better equipped to sensitivity and understanding. The fear of the Lord is wisdom.

*I also appreciate Barshinger's openness about how a verse bothered him, but that he later felt peace. I'm not completely resolved about a few verses, like 1 John 1:6. I believe sanctification is important, but I wonder about recurring sin. We have been saved by grace, yet works are still very important. It is complex.

re: comment #1, 2nd paragraph

*I also think it would be neat if Christians at large would think more about the 'invisible'ish sins and realize that it's not just the 'major sins'...perhaps the focus on major sins is more prevalent in certain geographical areas or communities than in my own, but it can still be there. I'm reading a book called "Respectable Sins: Confronting the Sins We Tolerate," by Jerry Bridges. Also a passage that can help us remember that our "minor" sins are actually major is found in Matthew 5:21-36.

[10. Suzanne said the following at 9:38 AM on Aug 22:]

10

Rachael,

I was there 1996-2000. I took Needham for Theology Proper and Prophets. Actually, David Needham was just in Colorado last summer for the alumni event and gave a terrific message. I mentioned him in a recent article I wrote: http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001753.cfm

[11. Julia H said the following at 10:23 AM on Aug 22:]

11

Texas Craig, thanks for your post. I totally agree that:

"Clearly, our ability to live a holy life comes only by the Spirit of God. But, at the same time, we must choose to submit to that power daily and walk by the Spirit. That aspect involves action by us (as evidenced by the phrases "make every effort" "if you possess" "be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure" and "if you do these things.") There are many more verses that make it clear that we have responsibility to choose daily to be holy and set apart. So, yes, we do have a role in our sanctification - not in the sense of how God may see us (i.e., imputed righteousness), but in how we actually live daily (i.e., whether our lives match our identity)."

However, I do feel that sometimes genuinely saved people can begin to question their salvation when, like Paul in Romans 7, they struggle with their fleshly tendencies. I guess I just wanted to remind people that even if our accuser begins to assault us and we stumble, we are still "more than conquerors" through the blood of the Lamb! I want to encourage everyone here.

Thank the Lord that He does not leave us in our unregenerate state, but continues to work His will in and through us, until it is completed! If we submit to Him and truly allow our hearts to change, we really will become the perfected saints that Christ so desires. It does require effort on our part, but we need to realize that our efforts are futile without His Spirit working through us. Keeping the law is impossible and will not lead us to sanctification any more than it saved us, but God does call us to holiness. It is a holiness that is complete and involves not only our actions, but our character, affections, thinking, will and our entire being! It is so much better than just being made able to follow a list of rules. We will literally BE TRANSFORMED!

Even we stumble He is able to keep us from falling. Remember that we ought not to keep on sinning that grace may abound, but that God does not abandon us to live out our calling on our own.

Sorry for the long post, but I get really excited about this topic. I am so weighed down by my sin sometimes and when I am reminded of God's perfect grace and mercy I find that I can truly hope to become what God intended all along. It really is wonderful.

[12. BDB said the following at 11:06 AM on Aug 22:]

12

Uh - oh - there's two Rachael's now.

I actually remembered Matthew 5:25 about agreeing with your adversary...right after getting into a fight in high school. I actually asked the principal to leave his office for a few minutes so I could talk to the guy. We worked out an agreement to settle our differences...and the other guy didn't go to jail. It seems he was already on probation for something. He never bothered me again, either.

I got into graduate school anyway.

[13. Texas Craig said the following at 1:32 PM on Aug 22:]

13

Julia, thanks for clarifying! Given your expanded comments, I see us very much in agreement, and I think you make a great point about the struggle with our sinful nature and yet the power of God at work in us through His Spirit. I take comfort in 1 Corinthians 4:2-4:

"2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me."

I overlooked that passage so often, until just recently. To paraphrase what I see Paul saying there is this:

I strive to honor God as best I can, but I know I still am not perfect. Yet, I do not judge myself for my failings, rather I put my life into God's hands knowing that He knows my weaknesses but also knows the desire of my heart and will judge me accordingly.

So, let us live up to what we have already attained. namely, God sees us as a new creation and we should choose daily to live accordingly.

Peace and Grace!

[14. Katrece said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 24:]

14

I John & Post #6

Sorry, my post will be long too; but I'm also very excited about this topic.

Julia, I too struggled with I John, chapter one, but then I got to be part of a group study on I John; as part of our study we looked at the original Greek tenses. God's word is so awesome!

I John 1:5-10:
5"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Here comes the really cool part...

In verse 6, the verb means: walking in darkness. The word for, "walk" is a present active participle. This describes non-believers.

In verse 7, John's talking about/to true believers who will certainly struggle as they live here on earth.
Verse 7 is for true believers, those of us who are walking in the light.

"Walk," and some other verbs in this passage, are present active participles. John's speaking of a continuing, sinful lifestyle. He's speaking to those who are not confessing their sins, once they do fall, and returning to the light. Unlike true believers, there has never been any light in them.

But those of us who have truly believed, continue to walk in the light and we remain in Christ (John 15). We continue to have fellowship with other believers. And Christ continues to cleanse us from all our sins.

I used to always read I John and question what it meant. I would wonder, "Are my friends who claim to be Christians, but for years have evidenced no fruit or sought Christ's forgiveness, truly believers of Christ?" I John puts the heart of believers at rest and convicts those who don't truly believe (like some of my friends who claim to be believers but are walking in darkness).

[15. Rachael said the following at 9:27 AM on Aug 25:]

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Katrece (14),

Thanks for addressing 1 John. I'm not at complete peace with 1:6. I feel like people and myself continue to walk in darkness even after conversion, and the majority of my sin seems to happen after coming to a saving knowledge of Him since I've been a Christian most of my life (seeming conversion happened at age 3, though I know I didn't fully understand some crucial stuff). My old self has mostly been mixed with the new. And if people don't think they are walking in darkness they might not be attentive to certain subtle persistent sin.

To some degree I wonder about salvation and persistent sin. What if there is a bunch of fruit in a believer's life but still frequently recurring sins of the heart, mind, and/or actions?

In my heart I know it is be grace that one is saved, through faith. Still, though, it's something to think about...