Rethinking College Debt by Heather Koerner on 08/19/2008 at 9:50 AM

It's time to rethink college debt, says Laura Rowley, financial journalist and author, over at Yahoo Finance.

Rowley says: "It's time to banish the notion that all student loans are "good" debt." 

"... the changing nature of the private student loan industry -- which in recent years doled out dollars with the enthusiasm of subprime mortgage lenders -- makes it critical for students to assess the risk, and borrow with a realistic idea of future earnings potential. In fact, these loans are worse than subprime mortgages, because they can haunt the borrower for life."

I say: Preach it, sister! For decades now, financial aid counselors (and just about everyone else) have promised us that student loans are "good" debt -- that they are an "investment." But not all student loans are equal and, when it comes down to it, they are all one thing: unsecured debt. You can sell your house to pay off a mortgage. You can't sell your brain to pay off college loans. All you can do is work. "Ah, but Heather," some say. "My student loans are debt now so that I can earn more over my lifetime." And on to point #2.

Rowley says:

"These products unquestionably offer the opportunity to boost one's career--college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma." But, she also points out the work of Boston University economist Laurence Kotlikoff who "demonstrates that over a lifetime of earnings, a plumber actually ends up with a higher standard of living than a doctor, in part because of the debt used to finance the physician's education."

I say: That's the point. While a college degree may offer you a higher earning potential, it also may not. (The bricklayer that works with my dad makes more than I did as a teacher with a master's degree and the welders that work with my hubbie make more than I ever did as an editor.) We simply have to be extraordinarily careful. We have to weigh what we may be gaining with the risk that we're taking.

Rowley has two suggestions:

1. Don't borrow more than your expected starting salary for all four years of your education. That should allow you to pay off the loan in 10 years. More than that and you're probably looking at extended repayment time. Borrow more than twice your expected salary and you're at "very high risk of default."
2. Go, State! "Give serious consideration to financial offers from a state school, especially if you plan to attend graduate school," Rowley writes.

I have a couple more:

• Caveat to Rowley's #1: Remember that suggestion for borrowing up to your starting salary assumes that you will be working full-time to pay off that loan for the next 10 years. If you plan to stay-at-home to raise kids or have your wife stay-at-home, you need to radically reduce that number.
• Just Don't Do It: According to the article, over half of all students polled in 2004 said they would have borrowed less if they had to do it again -- up from 31 percent in 1991. If there is anything you can do (e.g. live at home, work part-time, go to community college the first year, give up the car) to keep from taking out loans, do it! You will start your working life without the stress of financial obligations. You will have many more choices.

Here's the thing. I liked college. I think my education has benefited me in many ways, including financially. If I had to do it over, I'd go again. I took out a small loan to go to college. I know how long it took to pay back even the small amount. I wouldn't do that again.

If you're deciding whether to borrow for a bachelors or graduate degree, consider carefully.

And for those of us already living the student loan nightmare? Maybe I'll blog on that sometime.

Rethinking College Debt by Heather Koerner on 08/19/2008 at 9:50 AM

It's time to rethink college debt, says Laura Rowley, financial journalist and author, over at Yahoo Finance.

Rowley says: "It's time to banish the notion that all student loans are "good" debt." 

"... the changing nature of the private student loan industry -- which in recent years doled out dollars with the enthusiasm of subprime mortgage lenders -- makes it critical for students to assess the risk, and borrow with a realistic idea of future earnings potential. In fact, these loans are worse than subprime mortgages, because they can haunt the borrower for life."

I say: Preach it, sister! For decades now, financial aid counselors (and just about everyone else) have promised us that student loans are "good" debt -- that they are an "investment." But not all student loans are equal and, when it comes down to it, they are all one thing: unsecured debt. You can sell your house to pay off a mortgage. You can't sell your brain to pay off college loans. All you can do is work. "Ah, but Heather," some say. "My student loans are debt now so that I can earn more over my lifetime." And on to point #2.

Rowley says:

"These products unquestionably offer the opportunity to boost one's career--college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma." But, she also points out the work of Boston University economist Laurence Kotlikoff who "demonstrates that over a lifetime of earnings, a plumber actually ends up with a higher standard of living than a doctor, in part because of the debt used to finance the physician's education."

I say: That's the point. While a college degree may offer you a higher earning potential, it also may not. (The bricklayer that works with my dad makes more than I did as a teacher with a master's degree and the welders that work with my hubbie make more than I ever did as an editor.) We simply have to be extraordinarily careful. We have to weigh what we may be gaining with the risk that we're taking.

Rowley has two suggestions:

1. Don't borrow more than your expected starting salary for all four years of your education. That should allow you to pay off the loan in 10 years. More than that and you're probably looking at extended repayment time. Borrow more than twice your expected salary and you're at "very high risk of default."
2. Go, State! "Give serious consideration to financial offers from a state school, especially if you plan to attend graduate school," Rowley writes.

I have a couple more:

• Caveat to Rowley's #1: Remember that suggestion for borrowing up to your starting salary assumes that you will be working full-time to pay off that loan for the next 10 years. If you plan to stay-at-home to raise kids or have your wife stay-at-home, you need to radically reduce that number.
• Just Don't Do It: According to the article, over half of all students polled in 2004 said they would have borrowed less if they had to do it again -- up from 31 percent in 1991. If there is anything you can do (e.g. live at home, work part-time, go to community college the first year, give up the car) to keep from taking out loans, do it! You will start your working life without the stress of financial obligations. You will have many more choices.

Here's the thing. I liked college. I think my education has benefited me in many ways, including financially. If I had to do it over, I'd go again. I took out a small loan to go to college. I know how long it took to pay back even the small amount. I wouldn't do that again.

If you're deciding whether to borrow for a bachelors or graduate degree, consider carefully.

And for those of us already living the student loan nightmare? Maybe I'll blog on that sometime.

Comments

[1. Jennifer said the following at 10:06 AM on Aug 19:]

1

When starting out, I definitely didn't want to have any debt. However, going to a private school didn't exactly help that plan. But by working hard, living at home for a year after graduation, and pinching pennies, my loans were gone in one year.

I agree, though, with the no-or-low school debt plan. I wish I could've stuck with it, even if it meant transferring. But at the same time, I'm thankful for parents willing to let me live rent-free for a year and pay it all off.

[2. obewan said the following at 10:06 AM on Aug 19:]

2

I was lucky enough to have no loans.

I worked with a new grad from WPI once. She claimed $115K in student loan debts. Her entry level job as a computer programmer paid $32k. Welders at the shipyard she supported made $40 or $50K to start. She had lots of uncompensated over time as well. It really takes some caution I suppose.

[3. Irene M. said the following at 10:28 AM on Aug 19:]

3

Great advice! There are so many people my age who are setting themselves up for a lifetime of servitude because they just "had" to take on tens of thousands of dollars in student loans. Might I add another point? Pay for your own housing. Seriously. I've cut my potential debt in half by paying for rent out of pocket and will now graduate with less than $15,000 in student loans. Yeah, it takes some work. However, if you do your research and create a budget it will minimize your debt.

[4. Nicole said the following at 11:08 AM on Aug 19:]

4

I think students should also consider trade school. They are incredibly practical, usually not too expensive, don't take too long to get through and at the end can start working and earning a decent wage immediately. Its a great way to for young people to start and also a great way for older people to change paths.

[5. Kat said the following at 11:34 AM on Aug 19:]

5

I am doing my first two years of college debt free but getting into nursing school will not allow me to work and pay for it as I go. What suggestions do you have for someone that probably will have to take out close to $25,000 just for living expenses? (the school I am going to is a public university and the majority of tuition is paid for!)
Thanks
(PS I have looked for every scholarship available but have not received any...)

[6. Bertha said the following at 11:50 AM on Aug 19:]

6

The problem is that you have 18 year olds taking out these loans and paying them back is in the distant future. Thankfully, I went to a state school and have a relatively small loan with a good-paying job to pay it off (which I don't plan on quiting anytime soon).

[7. a sassy sister said the following at 11:58 AM on Aug 19:]

7

Heather, you make some good points in terms of college loans. But I have some other questions for you:

1) Do you believe that most colleges and universities offer the preparation and training for the professional world in proportion to what they charge for admission and attendance?

2.) What do you believe to be the purpose of college/university education, and how does that affect your decisions in deciding to take/not take out loans?

[8. Leslie said the following at 11:59 AM on Aug 19:]

8

I agree with everything to the above. I'll finish my graduate degree soon and, combined with my undergrad work, will have taken out almost $20K in loans over the entire period. However, I've been paying down the principle since day one -- even as little as $50 a month makes a difference! It has radically reduced my overall balance and my monthly payments after graduation because that's where they get you -- the interest!

[9. farmer Tom said the following at 11:59 AM on Aug 19:]

9

Just food for thought, although I'm sure someone will post something saying, I being divisive or narrow minded or parochial or something, but maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops.

Dr. Charles Murray seems to think so,

For Most People College is a Waste of Time

[10. Alison said the following at 12:01 PM on Aug 19:]

10

My husband and I have been very blessed to have our educations completely paid for (his via a full-ride, 5 year scholarship and mine via merit scholarships and my parents' generosity). But we watch our friends struggle beneath the weight of oppressive school loans, and it's truly frightening. One couple we know pays almost as much toward their school loans every month as we paid in rent for a nice two bed, two bath apartment! Considering that the husband took out those loans to get a BFA and an MFA at private universities in music and now teaches band at a high school, I really don't know how they're scraping by. I do believe that for some careers, carefully-controlled student loans can be reasonable. Nursing would be an excellent example. For my degree in English? Not so much.

[11. Scottie said the following at 12:10 PM on Aug 19:]

11

Whoa, this is a definite delicate topic. One question to pose, simply due to the timing of this change of social perspective of college debt as now bad debt: How much influence from the current economic state has swayed the idea of said debt to no longer being good debt? Paraphrased from earlier, when times were better, fewer people regretted the debt. Now, as times are tougher, more people regret. I feel this is just an emotional ripple effect of the current economic state. Everyone's dollars have to go farther, BUT, I don't think suggestive regrets of past investments is warranted. Personally, being a bit old fashioned, I feel that today's generation of instant gratification only wants the reward, without the commitment or sacrifice of the investment. Additionally, the benefit of responsibility in meeting these debts and living within a means to cancel these debts is a huge life lesson. I feel that someone coming out of school without the responsibility of reasonable debt could face much more challenging life lessons than those carrying and responsible to debt and finances. If someone has the means to get through school without debt, I think that is great. However, given the choice, I would much rather make the investment and learn, than be afraid of the commitment and never know.

Case in point, an old friend of mine had her dad pay for school. She travelled all over the country and wanted to go the best architect schools and so on. However, this person never learned responsibility and commitment. She ended up coming back to a school closer to home, getting married too soon, cheating on her husband, getting a divorce, and then having to sell her house. This is an extreme example, but all to close to home for me. She is a result of immaturity and irresponsibility at its worst. I am sad for her and feel for her and pray for her, but she is part of the instant gratification generation who have not learned, nor signed up for responsibility.

My apologies if this feels like a one sided argument, but I think the lack of education in our country plays a major role in where we are at now. I feel the knee-jerk promotion of education as bad debt is uncalled for. We are in America. We all live in debt, but we also have jobs to pay the debts.

In regards to the plumber and the doctor, I simply pose the question, do you want to have a higher standard of living, or do you want to be able to help people with the tools God has given you? A person gifted in the sciences and biology has very limited work unless formally educated and certified. A person gifted with their hands has a different path to which is incomparable to that of a doctor. Each helps the kingdom in their own way. Most who have gifts requiring educational investment will live in educational debt.

Again, my apologies, but this is a delicate topic for me and I feel the criticality of higher education for our country far outweighs the knee-jerk reaction of everyone's fears of the economy.

Thoughts?

Scott

[12. nab said the following at 12:12 PM on Aug 19:]

12

Only thing that separates me (debt-free, stuck in a miserable, dead-end, though fairly lucrative job) and my friends who are happy with their daily pursuits is their education. They had potential and they decided to try and achieve it. I had potential and I decided to eat it and go to the cheap school that impresses few employers. Debt-free? Yes. So what.

[13. Anna said the following at 12:13 PM on Aug 19:]

13

I think this is SUCH fabulous advice. While I was growing up and then going off to college (and grad school) I was warned about the dangers of tobacco, drugs, alcohol, and sex. I had great parents and mentors who helped me to avoid typical teenage and college student pitfalls. I was warned about not setting a budget, not spending responsbility, and cautioned to avoid all kinds of consumer debt.

However, when it came to student loans, it was just something you did. And when I managed to get into a great law school, it was simply an opportunity you took where debt load was just how things work.

Now I have one of those crazy loan balances (totaling $175K at the end of the day), and find myself making so many decisions determined not on what I want or love, but on what will help my pay off my loans faster. It's been and will be a big learning experience, and God has been providing to help me accelerate the process, but it's still something I wish I'd done a MUCH better job thinking through beforehand. I have a very understanding boyfriend, but try explaning that kind of debt load to a potential spouse....it's not a fun conversation to have, trust me.

I'd definitely caution anyone consider student loans to rethink and minimize the amount if you decide to take any out at all. Even if you could get out and pay for it over 10 years, the amount of interest you pay pretty much makes your degree twice as expensive. Don't just be wary of the "dumb" debt that many young people pick up, but be excessively careful about the so-called "smart" that's out there too.

Bottom line: Avoid student loans if at all possible!!!

[14. Christina said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 19:]

14

Ah, the student loan nightmare...

[15. Clapham said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 19:]

15

This assumes the only reason to go to college is to learn how to do a job. What ever happened to education for education's sake?

[16. Miss S said the following at 12:30 PM on Aug 19:]

16

I started college early - first by going to a community college and then transfering to a state university. I was able to pay each semester up front ~ I worked part-time and save up to pay for the next semester. I also lived at home. Not glamorous, but I walked away from college without any debt. I looked at transfering to a Christian University, but when I was the amount of student loans I needed, it was not worth it. Sure I missed out on some college fun, but I would do it again.

[17. mary kate said the following at 12:39 PM on Aug 19:]

17

i was so blessed; my parents were able to pay for my schooling at our nearby state school. i got some scholarships, but i am sooo thankful for my parents' support, and the fact that i didn't have to work during the quarters i was in school (i had co-op, or paid intership, every other quarter). my program was notoriously difficult, and i doubt i would have made it had i been trying to work even part time.

[18. Nicole (from Boston) said the following at 12:49 PM on Aug 19:]

18

I'm so there!! I'm in nursing school so I know that I have a good job waiting for me as soon as I graduate from college. However, I attend a state school and I should (because of a combination of scholarships, savings, and generous parents) graduate with less than $20,000 to pay back. I had a conversation with a nurse at my job a couple weeks ago about schools and she mentioned that she has about one year left before her school loans are paid off...and she's at least in her late 20s. I'm hoping that's not the case with me (and unless something goes very awry, it shouldn't. :) )

[19. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:51 PM on Aug 19:]

19

Ok.

This is frustrating. Yes, I know debt is a bad thing.

Yes, I know its difficult to pay off student loans.

Yes, I know how to avoid future student loans (for myself and my family) and why that would be a GOOD thing to do.

Where were you guys when I had a private school practically begging me to go to their school, my dad made it clear he'd like me at the private school, and I had it made in a state university?

Why wasn't I aware that "Financial Aid" meant years and years of debt that would put a hold on all my dreams and plans?

But here's the thing - what kinda help is out there when you can't find a roommate, moving home isn't a solid option, and after 2 years your only now realizing what its gonna take to pay off those loans? (Because paying the minimum payment that is on my statement apparently is NOT the right idea to be debt free in 10 years).

I'm not a spendthrift and have actually worked to save up enough money for a downpayment on a used vehicle (which I desperately need..considering my current vehicle is sitting in the apt parking lot unable to start). You'd think that making an engineer's salary would make ends meet, but apparently living expenses are a force to be reckoned with.

Looks like I'm going to be making even tighter changes to my current budget.

[20. Jacob said the following at 1:56 PM on Aug 19:]

20

Some of this begs the question, "what is the purpose of education?" If it is to learn practical job stills or knowledge of a field, then yes, state colleges or trade schools might be sufficient. However, if education is about more than mere "practicality" and dehumanizing efficiency, then all options are far from being worthy.

[21. Rachael said the following at 1:57 PM on Aug 19:]

21

Community college, scholarships, going to school in-state, some financial assistance from my parents, work (especially during my 1st 2 years & summers, working abroad after getting a BA, and a 1 year TA-ship which paid for most my tuition one year of grad school), and living at my parents' for about 4 of my 6 years of higher ed. made it so I didn't have to take out any loans and have savings in the end. Now I have a quarter-by-quarter job and don't make that much. I'm glad to not have loans.

But I bet a lot of peoples' valuable times at expensive private schools make the money worth it. Especially when a spouse comes along with the degree ;). God's ultimately in control, but a lot of spouses do meet each other in college, and there might be a greater abundance of condensed potential options at a Christian school. Not necessarily any more options than one would have elsewhere (and it only takes "one"), and I know that not every private school graduate ends up with a degree in one hand and a spouse in the other, but still...

Many years ago, I'd considered and been interviewed for a private school in another state. I ended up at a local community college in my own state. If my future child were in that situation, I don't think I'd necessarily encourage them to do the community college option unless it seemed to be what they wanted and that it would be good for them. Often there's probably a lot of good that comes with private schools. I'd want the best for my child and I 'd know that God could work through either option.

[22. P&P said the following at 2:12 PM on Aug 19:]

22

Thanks for mentioning the state college option. It's about time public education got its due.

The one thing that also needs to happen is for schools to offer a "work your way through" program. It doesn't mean that you have to sweep floors (not that there's anything wrong with that), but to offer students a flexible class schedule, part time options and even paid internships and co-op jobs to help offset the cost of tuition. Some schools already do this, however I'd like to see even Ivy League schools offer this option.

Finally, don't discount community college as well. Most state collges allow community collge credits to transfer towards a Bachelor's and the tuition is significantly lower.

That being said, if you get into MIT or CalTech, go. Those schools are truly worth the money.

[23. BDB said the following at 2:19 PM on Aug 19:]

23

I do think that your rules are good ones to get people to think ahead. If your chosen profession has low starting pay, adjust your debt accordingly.

All debt carries risk. If you score, say, in the top 10% of those standardized tests, you can probably afford to take more risks in this area and go to a better school. But it's still much better to use your test scores to get scholarships. If you get into Harvard or Yale, it's probably worth it to take out the loans; you will be challenged to grow a lot faster and will likely do better in the work place.

But note that most people who go to graduate school, such as Yale Law school or Harvard Medical, actually complete their undergraduate degree at a small liberal arts college, not a public university. But you need to be pretty motivated about joining a profession to go this route.

A business-school degree from a public college or University of Phoenix will help you get your first job. But those programs are NOT designed to prepare you for senior management - they are designed as entry-level training. You will need to go to graduate school to make up for the deficiencies in a standard business degree education - if you are called to do more than mid-management. Most people aren't.

The other recommendation I'd make is that if you're taking out loans for living expenses - finish faster. If you stretch out a graduate degree for five years, using loans to pay for both tuition and some living expenses, you're need to pick: either live within your work income and go to school part-time, or go "all in" and finish school in 1-2 years. Some MBA programs like Dartmouth or Harvard require all students to go to school full time and not work for 2 years. But those programs turn out top notch graduates who command large salaries when they are done.

If you can get in.

If you want to be a mom by age 25, avoid loans like the plague.

[24. BDB said the following at 2:24 PM on Aug 19:]

24

There is another way to pay off student loans: investments. Due to the real estate economy over the last few years, I know a bunch of people who sold their house and paid off their student loans after just a couple of years. Others learn how to understand - and invest in - the stock market at age 22. A good education can help you avoid making expensive mistakes. Just keep in mind that most people who are "upwardly mobile" got there through investment gains, not salary.

[25. BDB said the following at 2:28 PM on Aug 19:]

25

Lest I forget - you reall need to pray about how God wants you to pay for school. Don't underestimate God's ability to provide opportunities. It might be a scholarship, it might be non-loan financial aid, it might be a job at a university that gives you free tuition. Be flexible.

[26. Victoria said the following at 2:48 PM on Aug 19:]

26

I definitely agree that taking on massive amounts of student debt is not wise. That said, I went to the best (and most expensive) college that I got into, a top-tier school from where I received a great financial aid package but nevertheless took on some loans, totaling about $7K at graduation -- and I paid them back in full within 3 or 4 months after that, due to the great job I landed using my admittedly expensive degree. (I did have to work nights and weekends during all four years of college and contributed about $14K a year towards my education.) I am now 25 and make a six-figure salary at my dream job, something I could not have done without going to college. I must say, Farmer Tom, what do you have against higher education? I agree with you that taking on a mountain of debt is unwise; however, I recall that you often mention your struggles with meeting ends meet for your family, etc. Do you think if one of your children had an opportunity to go to college through scholarships, financial aid, and maybe a little bit of loans, you would discourage him or her from going? Even if it meant that they could one day make a more comfortable living for themselves and their families? Don't we all want our children to do better than we did, isn't that the point? That's certainly why my parents, both poor blue-collar immigrants, sacrificed to put me through college!

[27. BDB said the following at 2:49 PM on Aug 19:]

27

Scottie (#11) wrote:

>>Thoughts?<<

Hmmm...on a medical missions trip, one of my biggest frustrations was that the shower in the church-run apartment we were in constantly leaked water on the floor. We had a roofer with us, but it would have been great to have a plumber along.

As an aside, I've never used my undergraduate biology training for work. However, on said mission trip, I was the only one who immediately started drinking water from the ceramic-filter water station. Why? Because I'd done lab work using filter equipment, and I recognized the technology. Everyone else was afraid to drink that water at first. Ironically, I'm the only one who didn't get sick on the trip.

Don't underestimate the ability of God to use your knowledge in a place you'd never expect...

[28. Laura said the following at 3:09 PM on Aug 19:]

28

I heartily agree with the necessity of avoiding debt whenever possible, and taking practical steps to reduce the cost of education (for example: ever seen "Good Will Hunting"? Dropping 150 grand on an education you could've gotten for a buck fifty in late fees from the library... well... not such a good idea.). DUH! That's about stewardship. God has entrusted us with resources and countless blessings, and we ought to take very seriously the responsibility to deal wisely with what is ultimately HIS money!

I also couldn't agree more with the person who remarked on the rather chilly, utilitarian bent of this conversation -- education isn't about letters after your name, and it certainly isn't about getting the right job. It's about BEING educated: training, sharpening, and using the mind God has given you. That's one reason I think trade schools and that ilk are bad news.

So here's my advice, as a person who's several years out of college and still chipping away at those blasted loans:

1. If you're good at working with your hands, do it. Just do like Will Hunting did and get your education from the library -- sharpen your God-given mind!

2. If you want college education but don't need a degree, audit classes from a local university. Check out the incredibly vast array of online resources for theological education from places like Desiring God and Acts 29.

3. If you want a college degree, go for it. Just be wise. Take classes at a junior college or go in-state. Work your backside off in the summer. View college as an educational experience to be exploited at every turn for your own benefit -- as my pastor says about seminary, "You better work the system or it'll work you."

And one final note, regarding college and husbands: honey, I went to that expensive, private, Christian liberal arts university and STILL graduated single. And then I went to get a layman's degree at a seminary absolutely busting at the seams with eligible Christian men, and STILL graduated single. If God's purpose for you is to get married, well, even if you're slogging through boring courses at a third-rate junior college and living at home... his plans will not be thwarted. You're not going to miss out on his plan by choosing the "wrong" college. He is SOVEREIGN!! :)

[29. Heather Koerner said the following at 3:29 PM on Aug 19:]

29

a sassy sister (#7):

#1: No
#2: I tend toward the practical view of a college education: preparation for a profession. I know there are others who would emphasize, as some put it, "education for education's sake."

On another blog, Tom N. talked about the core curriculum: "wise elders, through lifelong learning and hard-earned wisdom, have decided what an educated person needs to know in order to be a fully rounded citizen."

I'm a little jaded toward that view because my own higher ed experience included so much secular worldview. My own education on a biblical worldview has come from a lot of reading, which didn't cost me much.

Whichever way one tends (for most, I would guess they see a college education as including both a well-rounded and thinking citizen and learning a profession), it wouldn't change my advice much.

Want to be an accountant? Okay. Get an accounting degree, but count the cost. If you plan to take on debt, know how long you will be working and how many choices you will give up to pay off that degree.

Want to become an educated citizen on student loans? Same thing. Count the cost.

[30. Carrie said the following at 3:41 PM on Aug 19:]

30

I think it is great if you are able to live at home, work during school, only take classes when you can afford it and all the other things one can do to reduce their student loan debt. However I am really irritated with blogs like this and many of the responses so far that fail to take into account that we do not all have the same options. I am not a US citizen and did not grow up here. The only way for me to finance an education was through loans because my family would never have been able to save enough. As it was I worked all through high school and then for 4 years after full time to save enough along with what my parents also saved to pay for 1 year of school. So by time I started my freshman year I was 22 going on 23. Yes there is a conversion factor for the dollar so what looked like a lot really was not. So everything else tuition, food, room etc was all paid through loans so yes after a BS and an MBA I do have in the region of $150,000 in loans. However the working while studying, the scholarships, the work study programs etc were not available for a non citizen I could only work 20 hours a week and only on campus for $7.25 an hour. I am not sure how far anyone could realistically expect that to go. I also had the added burden of “out of state” tuition but then anywhere I went would have been out of state for me even if I went to another country. I could and did work more in the summer but once again even at 40 hrs 7.25 before taxes only does so much, it does not pay for books or tuition, it did by groceries and sometimes pay the electricity bill however. Yes so I am doing the student loan “nightmare” however, I would not have any of the opportunities or be doing the work I am today without those loans. So when I write my $700+ cheque each month for my private loans I give God thanks that 1. I can pay the bill and that 2. with long life and good health I will pay them off. And no I never saw myself as a stay at home Mom – a mom yes but not a stay at home one so that does not worry me.

[31. Sarah said the following at 3:52 PM on Aug 19:]

31

I just wanted to point out that not everyone can pay for school even with the help of the offered scholarships and grants. While they have helped lower the cost of my loans the cost of a private school is greater. while it is great to be debt free not everyone has that choice.

[32. Brad said the following at 4:17 PM on Aug 19:]

32

If I had to do it all over again I would have done it debt free, or I would have waited to go to college altogether after working or going into the military for a few years beforehand. I would not recommend graduate school to anybody unless you have experience in the field, you enjoy it, and you need the graduate degree to get ahead in that field.

[33. skp said the following at 4:38 PM on Aug 19:]

33

BDB-
I'm not so sure that getting an MBA from a public business schools is always such a bad idea. I have always thought UCLA, UC at Berkley and U of Michigan's MBA programs were highly reputable. Reputations of public and private schools vary for any program. It's not a public vs private thing. People just need to do the research.

[34. Jorden said the following at 4:45 PM on Aug 19:]

34

This has been a huge issue with me trying to pick out a college. I'm a senior this year and it's getting to that crunch time where I need to decide soon. I feel like God wants me to go to this college in Indiana(I live in Missouri), but the tuition with room and board is 25K a year. I currently don't have a job, and my parents aren't prepared to deal with that kind of money for a college so I've been trying to decide what to do.

There is a local christian college where if you work 15hours a week you can go for free, but the main problem with that college is my dad makes over the amount they want you to have for the level of need and they only let in 30 students that don't fit that amount, and that is a very small margin.

My other choice, which I'm leaning towards, is going to a technical college for 2 years(with scholarships probably, so it'd be free or cheap) and then try to earn some money to go to the college in Indiana for the remainder of my Education. But still unless I get scholarships that's still 50K in student loans. And if I go into a Christian ministry(Which I've been considering) high salaries aren't always avaliable in that field.

So basically I have no idea what I should do, except pray of course. So that's what I'm currently doing, praying and thinking(which the last really isn't getting me anywhere :P).

[35. DannieA said the following at 8:16 PM on Aug 19:]

35

hey all...i´m still on vacation but decided to slightly put my 2 cents.

First decide why you are getting an education...

I just came back to Jersey (my aunt/uncle live there) from Lancaster county in Pennsylvania...Amish country. The Amish have an 8th grade education, and work hard in their farms/trade jobs and make ends meet and beyond...they have a purpose in their lives...
Our purpose might be to be doctors, lawyers, teachers etc...but it´s because we believe it is our calling. If we think this way, I think we would curb our loans...even if we took them and make use of what we learn.

when one gets an "education" merely for the sake of it, thats usually when loan debts pile nice and high.

[36. Elizabeth said the following at 8:59 PM on Aug 19:]

36

I'm one year away from graduating at a Christian university, and I will have a total of $35,000 in loans. My dad and I calculated that with the area I want to live in and the job I want to do, I should be able to pay it off in five years. That assumes that I hold to a pretty Spartan standard of living, of course, which I am perfectly willing to do. It also assumes that I will be able to get a job right away.

What I really feel called to do requires having little or no debt, but I also have to get my degree before trying to get trained.... So I've got a Catch-22. I did go debt-free to a public university for one year, but the environment was counterproductive to my development and most things didn't transfer very well, leaving me with four years at my new school, anyway.

School loans are definitely already changing my plans for the future. I wish I could have got through without borrowing, but if I had to choose again between staying at the state school and transferring to the Christian one, I would probably make the same choice.

If I should live, say, another 60 or 70 years, what is 5 more spent in preparation? I have to believe that I can get out from under the debt and get on with what I'm meant to do.

[37. Becky said the following at 10:10 PM on Aug 19:]

37

there are a number of professions- teaching, public health, social work- that the government feels are badly needed enough to offer loan repayment to individuals who pursue these degrees then spend 10 years working for a nonprofit and can't pay off their loans...
it's a highly individual situation. There's little way to avoid debt in some cases... I'm rather glad my physician took out a loan to go to medical school.
The danger is making generalizations and trying to apply them to everyone. Student loans are neither good nor bad- they're a tool to accomplish a goal, and they can be used well or poorly.

[38. Justice said the following at 11:14 PM on Aug 19:]

38

I finished my BA with $0 in school debt, but got in a small amount of credit card debt towards the end to fly and visit fam and a couple other things. Too bad I graduated at a time with my area had their first net job loss in 40 years

[39. Colette said the following at 11:44 PM on Aug 19:]

39

I wish I had not gone into debt for graduate school. For most of my undergrad I had scholarships to pay tuition, and I didn't take out more than a couple thousand dollars in loans. Easy to pay off.
But for graduate school I took out student loans to pay for tuition and some other expenses. Bad idea. Now as I job search I feel the pressure to find something that will allow me to pay down my debt as fast as possible.

[40. cn said the following at 1:33 AM on Aug 20:]

40

For those of you looking for UGrad or Grad programs and feeling concerned about cash flow, let me recommend the University of Cincinnati. Here's why:

UC is a "Work Co-operative" university that alternates academic quarters with paid practical quarters in your field. I'm a UC grad student right now and I made enough on my last Co-op quarter to pay for my tuition the next quarter. Also, since UC is a state school its easy to obtain instate tuition.

This can be done one of two ways. Students can either apply for Ohio Residency, which requires a paid job (easily done through the co-op program) and I think, takes a year to achieve. Or the shorter route (which I took!), is to move over the river to Northern Kentucky. UC has an agreement with Northern Kentucky to provide near in state rates for residence of about six different counties. It ends up being about $200 more a quarter BUT there is no wait time or paycheck required for Kentucky residency. All you have to do is obtain a drivers license from one of the six counties and you are a resident that very day. With out traffic its a ten minute drive. During rush hour it can take 30 -45 minutes.

Its a great deal financially, and you come out with a stacked resumed, great networking, and fully trained for the work force. There's also the added benefit of using your co-op quarters to live in different places. ;)

For more info, go here:

www.uc.edu

[41. obewan said the following at 5:48 AM on Aug 20:]

41

Farmer Tom Says:
>...just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops....<

The bias in your statement stems from the fact that the article you posted is talking about the BA degree.

I think it has no bearing on a hard science degree like a BS in Engineering. I have no regrets about mine and will be several million dollars ahead at the end of the game vs. the fast food jobs I started out in in dead Michigan right after high school.

Then too, from what I recall from my college days, there was absolutely no comparison between the 'liberal arts' classes I took and the hard science and engineering classes in terms of difficulty. In one, I did not even study and made straight A's, in the other...16 hour days and barely passing with a C in some cases.

[42. obewan said the following at 6:01 AM on Aug 20:]

42

BDB says
>>--Others learn how to understand - and invest in - the stock market at age 22. A good education can help you avoid making expensive mistakes. Just keep in mind that most people who are "upwardly mobile" got there through investment gains, not salary.--<<

Historically, people need to realize that your suggestion is a LONG TERM proposal. Short-term stock market gains depend on hitting/timing the market trends, which can change drastically. If someone buys at the top of an up trend, the profit takers who sell can destroy them. Happens all the time - every 5 years or so. Thank the Lord I sold all my housing related stocks just before the S&L scandal. If I had not, I would have lost over 1/2 my net worth. It is not for one with a weak stomach sometimes.

[43. BB said the following at 6:50 AM on Aug 20:]

43

There are other cheaper options like online or community college but I would have missed this:
1) I'm doing something that I enjoy that I wouldn't have had the opportunity had I not gone to college
2) College was a life experience that I wouldn't trade anything for. Like a 4 years vacation only you had to study. I'll be telling my college days stories to my grandchildren I'm sure.
3) I do make more and since I went State and took the best loans I could find, I'm college debt free. Now my house on the other hand...

My advice based on my experience:
1) Go to a Sate College (cheaper)

2) Live on Campus (allows you to meet and keep up with friends easier - freshman year I met the people I'm still hanging out with 8 years later, go your junior year like most community colleges prep you for and you are joining already set groups or clicks)

3) Borrow as little as possible and search around for the best rate

4) Take a part time job that has some kind of perk that you enjoy

5) Plan for only 4-5 years there. (I've had friends do more but their last year or two, his friends all graduated and he was stuck hanging out with people much younger then himself) - If you take 12 hours, that allows you to lead & attend a bible study, work 25 hours a week, and hang out with friends as much as you would like while graduating in 5 years. That was perfect for me.

[44. Julia H said the following at 8:34 AM on Aug 20:]

44

Re. comments 15 and 20

Education is an honourable pursuit; however, education for education's sake is a luxury, not a requirement. I do not believe that a loan in this case is a wise decision.

If education is important to you, you should be willing to wait, work and save your money for it, particularly if it will not pay for itself in the long run with a career.

I think too many Christians are duped into believing that education is a virtue or a necessity. Education can too easily be set up as an idol and many Christians struggle with pride in this area. We ought to examine our hearts in this area and ensure that we do not have a worldly perspective on education. How will acheiving your goals in this area help to further the kingdom of God?

Christians should never take out a loan without the intention (and by this I mean a feasible plan) to pay it back in a timely fashion. To take a loan expecting it to be forgiven is not honest.

How can one take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for an education that will leave them working for a salary that will barely cover their cost of living? How would one go about paying back such a loan?

In addition, the Bible is very clear: "If a man shall not work, he shall not eat." If you plan to have a family, then you should plan to be able to support them.

If you have the luxury of being able to pursue education due to your wealth or due to your great intelligence (scholarships) then do it, but do it with gratitude in your heart that you have a privilege that is reserved for very few.

Also, education is something that can be pursued for free. Get a library card and read. Use the internet. You can aquire a gerat deal of knowledge in this manner. You just will not have any intials at the end of your name to show for it. If this is a problem for you I would question whether your goal is education or prestige. If it is the latter, this would be an indication of pride.

I will add that both my husband and myself have student loans and it has greatly impacted our freedom. We have chosen to delay having children until the loans are paid off because without my salary, we cannot afford to pay off the loans and live. It has been painful for me to wait as I greatly desire to have a baby and cannot have one. I regret ever taking out loans for my education and often wonder if I should have gone to a trade school instead.

[45. Chris said the following at 10:10 AM on Aug 20:]

45

farmer Tom writes:

Just food for thought, although I'm sure someone will post something saying, I being divisive or narrow minded or parochial or something, but maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops.

Dr. Charles Murray seems to think so,

I agree that for some, it is a worthless piece of paper. Murray's solution, however, isn't much better. With a bunch of certification tests, alternative educational programs will simply "teach to the test." Even the CPA model Murray proposes requires education and experience beyond the test.

That said, certification that included a "residency" or experience component would certainly help. I've seen many a person with a degree who didn't know the very basics of what they supposedly studied.

[46. Fatz McConnell said the following at 10:57 AM on Aug 20:]

46

My wife and I saved for our daughters education (should have saved for weddings as well). So there was not much left for them to pay. That is a gift we gave them.
However as an advisor and professor, I have counseled many a student about ways to pay for the schooling.
One option - military. In some cases when you have debt and the military has a real need, there are ways to get the money to pay off the debt. The Guard has some good programs as well.
Another option is to look into the Health and Human Services programs. Or in some cases the B of Indian Affairs. I know a dentist that spent 20 years with the system and retired. Had his bills paid by the government and ended up with the same retirement as a military member.
In Alaska, if you are studying to be a teacher, you can have your debt paid if you commit to X years to teaching in the bush. The same goes for some school districts located in inner city areas. Worth checking.

[47. Tigger said the following at 11:10 AM on Aug 20:]

47

At age 16 the parents sat me down and told me if I wanted to go to college, I had to pay for it myself. No ifs, ands, or buts. So as as a cashier at the grocery store, I worked 20 hours a week at $6/hr. It meant giving up a social life, but I wanted college. Life is hard; we make choices.

I got a merit scholarship that paid tuition and books, and a bit of money dribbled in from tiny one-time scholarships. At college I worked in the local restaurant, shoveling pizzas and cleaning up ice cream. Whatever it took. One semester I held down five disparate jobs to keep the money coming in, because on top of wanting shampoo and pizzas, I had to save. Saving was top priority.

I didn't not graduate debt-free, but the debt was negligible, not even 7k. There are only so many hours in a week to be worked and studied. Life happens. I sacrificed having a car for three years but eventually I needed one, and paid cash for it - no car payments for me. I also chose a state school reasonable for what I had to fork out. Probably most importantly, I didn't use a credit card till I was 24, long after school. It makes no sense to me to buy things you don't have the cash for. Most things can wait. If you can pay in cash, you should.

If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now, I'd have started working earlier in high school, pre-planned for study abroad and internships that don't pay, and finished without a cent of debt. It's incredibly liberating to graduate and have no ties that bind.

The moral of the story? After school I took off to live abroad - I literally showed up in England with cash, a backpack, and a visa. No job, no house, nobody to help me. I knew I could do it because I had proven I had the moral strength and courage from fighting to stay afloat financially... Having to pay for school made me stronger than I ever could have imagined. When I have kids, they will have to do the same thing. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[48. Anna said the following at 12:34 PM on Aug 20:]

48

If you think the point of higher education is to make more money over the course of your life and have a higher standard of living than if you didn't go to college, then you should think twice about going to college, especially if it means you'll go into debt.

However, if you think the point of higher education is the education in and of itself (as I do) than there is no argument that should keep you from going to college anywhere you want. Of course you can learn by reading and researching yourself without ever having stepped foot on a college campus, but that just cannot be compared to the opportunity to ineract with proffesors who are experts in their fields and the spontaneous discussions that take place among students and professors in class.

You need to go into college with your eyes open and realize what debt will mean in terms of your other life goals, but I think we need to acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with going to school for the sake of going to school. There is no such thing as too much education.

[49. Mel said the following at 12:42 PM on Aug 20:]

49

You missed one huge portion of society here...

I have a dear friend who is studying to become a pharmacist. When she graduates, she'll receive a doctorate and over $200,000 in debt. Her first-year salary will probably be around $50,000. However, her earning potential is sky high... Within a year she could be making $100,000 to $150,000; within five years she could be making half a million. In my opinion, her debt is the best kind possible.

I have another friend who graduated med school several years ago with over a half million in debt, but he paid it off within ten years. He's a brilliant doctor and his investment in his education has paid of tenfold.

You're drawing a thick black line between "good" debt and "bad" debt, but really the line is much fuzzier. True, some types of debt are bad, but not all debt is bad.

[50. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:10 PM on Aug 20:]

50

Chris (#45),

I think that the point that Dr. (Mr?) Murray was getting at is that if there is a certification test, than there isn't as much need for college education.

The point of college education for a company? To prove that you have the education. The same proof can be obtained in a certification test without going to college.

CPA's aren't the only ones that have this - to sell insurance, you must pass this kind of an exam. To become an actuary, you must pass this kind of an exam.

I can argue (because my dad did this without a college education), that all you need is self-motivation, self-discipline, and a library membership to pass any of those exams. You don't need a college education to do that. In which case, schools WOULDN'T be teaching to a test, because those people interested in taking those tests have less expensive resources available to them in the local public library than they would in a university.

I went to school because I liked to learn - I'm a scholar by the proper definition. I love studying history, philosophy, (pure) mathematics, literature, ancient language, and religion - and I love the atmosphere of being taught and guided through those disciplines by an expert. Which was the traditional setting of universities was - which originated in monasteries.

Problem is, the kind of education I wanted doesn't give you a return on the investment. The kind of life that the traditional university prepared you for is NOT worth the amount of money we spend on education now.

MANY of the careers we attend college for do not need degrees as proof of education - a computer science programmer worth his salt coulda been programming for the CIA straight out of High School with the same kind of skill and knowledge that one with a 4 year degree in it could.

[51. Jo said the following at 1:31 PM on Aug 20:]

51

The thing is, none of us know the future. I did a music degree at college. I didn't know what I wanted to do, I just wanted to get a degree because that's what you're 'supposed' to if you have brains, and besides, I had no clue what else to do instead. Farmer Tom's advice probably would have applied to me: I wasn't working towards a clear goal, I didn't have a coherent reason why a degree was a good idea, other than social expectation and the assumption that more job opportunities would be available to me if I had a degree.

However, 3 years on from graduation, I'm now doing my MA, heading towards a very clear goal and career that without my degree would never have been possible for me. So although at the time my reasoning wasn't necessarily what some here might consider 'sensible', I'm very very glad I did get that degree.

I should add that I had only a very small loan from that degree, as I stayed at home while studying - but that isn't always possible for everyone, nor is it always the right choice. I think financial considerations always have to be balanced against other things. While education shouldn't be an idol, perfect finances shouldn't be either. Acquiring debt isn't the end of the world if you're aiming to use and develop your skills for God.

[52. Daniel said the following at 1:37 PM on Aug 20:]

52

I don't think the lines are quite as defined as people have stated as WHERE you go to college is critical when considering a cost-benefit analysis. Attending Stanford University and attending Santa Clara University are roughly equivalent in terms of costs (cost of living, tuition, etc) but in terms of the end benefits (opportunity, starting salary, prestige) they are not.

I would also say that a college education and a certification test serve different purposes and are not equivalent. When employers look at Certification tests, it shows them that you know how to do a certain function. When employers look at your college education, it is more used to evaluate a candidate's determination, drive to excel, creativity, and innovation. I wouldn't say that that's true for the majority of employers, but for positions at the top consulting firms like McKinsey, Bain, and Booz Allen Hamilton or tech firms like Apple or Google, you have to show more than just that you have the necessary skills and your college experience often helps define that.

[53. Elizabeth Crabtree said the following at 4:25 PM on Aug 20:]

53

Well said, Julia. I am a thirty-something who is still in the throws of college debt and longing to move on to children and a "fuller life." I wish I would have understood the impact of student loans-they have been a thorn in my side for far too long. That being said, I absolutely loved my private Christian college experience, and don't necessarily think I would change it if travelling back in time. I cherish my life-long friends I made and the fantastic experience of learning (though I agree on checking one's motives for fancy degree letters). I don't know that I could have significantly reduced the amount that I borrowed at the time, but I could have hit the debts a lot harder when coming out. I let them collect capitalized interest for periods of time when I could not pay. I would encourage anyone in their twenties to consider themselves young enough to hit the debts hard, make sacrifices, and clear the path for future freedom. (I can still do this too, but I feel much more pressed at my age). This subject truly breaks my heart. Thanks for your collective wisdom everyone.

[54. Jeremy said the following at 9:03 PM on Aug 20:]

54

In response to farmer Tom (#9):

"...maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper..."

From the post: "...college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma."

Maybe a college-level English course would have taught you the definition of "worthless"? =)

[55. Verde said the following at 5:08 AM on Aug 21:]

55

It seems like most of the posts are students who have thought about the consequences of debt. If I might add another thought, our state has a program called Post Secondary Education Option and this allows college classes to be taken during high school that double as credit for the high school classes. You graduate with both the college credit and the high school class credit. The state pays for it and the books are a loan but they are free!!! You give up being at your high school for some of the day but you can crank out some credits on the liberal arts classes that you are obligated to take for the first few years. Also, community colleges are awesome opportunities for these same classes. These are not for everyone but they are great places to start!!! Godspeed everyone!!

[56. Melanie said the following at 5:59 AM on Aug 21:]

56

Looks like CNN must be following your blog! They posted this article just today:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/index.htm?cnn=yes

[57. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:04 AM on Aug 21:]

57

Daniel (#52),

What would it say about determination when an employer looks at a group of certifications attached to resumes and finds out that the highest scoring test came from a man with no college education, no address, and the first time they met he was wearing ratty jeans and undershirt covered in paint, while the rest of the certifications were from students who had degrees from Stanford, Harvard, and Yale?

What do you think an employer is going to think when they see a higher score on a certification for a guy who did not graduate from college, worked as at a plant nursery, and had 5 kids before he was 35 vs a certification from a guy who failed the test the first two times he took it, attended an ivy league school, and has only 2 kids well into his 40's?

I'll tell you what an employer is going to think - the man with NO college education is significantly MORE intelligent, that he could teach HIMSELF enough to pass this exam with such a high score, has MUCH more drive and discipline to have actually done this without professors breathing down his neck while struggling to provide for a family in a job that doesn't pay that much.

I'd think that the men like Chris Gardner and my father are much more impressive and show much more skill without a college degree than any harvard or yale grad out there - because they know how to learn and proved it by studying on their own for exams that ivy league grads struggle to pass.

And I disagree that a certification test locks you into one skill. If anything, a college education with a specific major does that more effectively. A man who passes a certification exam with no college education has proved that he can learn anything on his own. A man with a college degree has proven that he can listen to teachers for four years in one subject and pass an exam.

I had a 1300 SAT score prior to my 4 year education in Mathematics. The score was split nearly 50/50 - 660 in verbal, 640 in quantitative. After 4 years of college, I took my GRE. I still did good (I think I got a 1200), but the gap was higher - quantitave won out at around 700-800.

A 4 year degree drastically affects your other disciplines when you have to focus on one major. For someone who learns easily on their own and has the discipline to teach themselves, it doesn't lock you in as much - but for the average university grad, it locks them in to their career more than studying for a certification test does.

[58. Scottie said the following at 11:00 AM on Aug 21:]

58

Here we go again...

Please everyone, remember that these are only our opinions and not to take things personally or become rude towards each other.

This is a hot topic, but nonetheless, we all share differences of opinions and experience. Please be nice to each other.

Thanks!!

[59. farmer Tom said the following at 11:55 AM on Aug 21:]

59

54. Jeremy

"...college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma."

Ok, Jeremy you win. Well, at least if you define success as, "He or she who makes the most money wins."

I on the other hand and many others here I suspect, have a different standard,

Philippians 1:21, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

don't like that one, Jesus said,

Matthew 6

19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:"

So, is that it Jeremy? Do you define success by how much money you make???

I know that's what the college professors taught you, question is, did they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and was their highest priority Living for Him?

[60. Kelly said the following at 12:01 PM on Aug 21:]

60

Perhaps the caution should apply to someone doing a 'general' degree. Anything with an Arts suffix is something I would be wary of.

How many of you know the joke that goes like this?
Q: "What does the Arts graduate say to the Science graduate?"
A: "Would you like fries with that?"

In other words, the earning power of a specific science/accounting/law degree is much higher than that of a generalist degree.

I hedged my bets when I studied: a dual Science and Information Technology degree. I've not used the science degree one bit but the earnings in IT paid off my study within the first 5 years. If I'd studied English Lit like I'd wanted to, I doubt I'd be here now.

[61. xeres said the following at 3:13 PM on Aug 21:]

61

sigh: I don't know what to say. I think the real issue is stewardship and using your resources wisely. It also is dealing with the issue of the American sense of entitlement and how it negatively affects a Christian's ability to practice stewardship.

Being financially responsible is very important. Living within one's means is crucial to good stewardship. I'm a saver by nature. I know my limitations. But I find several comments on the matter to be dehumanizing, miser-like and utilitarian (in a negative way). There is no such thing as finanical security; it is an illusion. Financial freedom is the only thing we are guarnteed to have, not financial security.

I am sadden that some of you pitted science degrees and Arts degrees against each other. That's not right. Not everyone wants to be in computers and sciences anymore than everyone wants to be in humanities and journalism.

That said, I would like see more people going to college because they geniunely want to be there, making use of the time and resources college has to offer. I would rather have a b+ student who is there because he or she wanted to be there with a plan than a genius who was there just for appearences and economic prestige but with no plan

[62. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:17 PM on Aug 21:]

62

Xerxes (#61),

Though it is true that science degrees get more payout than art degrees, I'm personally of the opinion that the art degrees (English, Philosophy, History, Languages, pure Mathematics) require a bit more intelligence. Satisfy yourself with the give and take ;)

**Duck from the mob of angry BS'ers**

[63. Bertha said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 21:]

63

Personally, I think my college education was well worth the under $20,000 in student loans I took out. Just from the financial standpoint, I make about 70% more in my (degree required) job than I made while working in the same area (without a degree) while in school.

[64. Jeremy said the following at 5:43 PM on Aug 21:]

64

"So, is that it Jeremy? Do you define success by how much money you make???

I know that's what the college professors taught you, question is, did they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and was their highest priority Living for Him?"

Actually, yes, more on that in a second. But first, I think you may come off as a bit more bitter than you mean to. I understand that you did not make the investment of college, which is fine. But for the many that did, it has a number of rewards, and yes, among those are financial rewards. Does this mean everyone that goes to college is obsessed with money to the exclusion of all else? Of course not, any more than that would be true of everyone who keeps their money in an interest-bearing account. Being a good financial steward is not the same as valuing wealth above God.

I did attend a Christian university for my undergraduate degree, and it was an experience that for me was well worth it. Not merely because it raises my earning potential, but because it was an unparalleled opportunity to focus on growing in knowledge, strengthening my relationship with God, and developing deep friendships.

[65. Leah said the following at 7:28 PM on Aug 21:]

65

farmer Tom- I would agree with you that practically (that is to say, as far as your practical skills go), most degrees are relatively useless.

But then with the other practically (that is to say, concerning what happens in practice) employers in many industries do prefer someone with a degree, and so that degree, worthless thought it might be in regards to your practical skills, is very worth while in regards to the job it could get you.

Also, your attack on Jeremy was unwarranted. I will agree that financial gain should not be our sole purpose in choosing our degree/career. But the point of this article is about the financial ramifications of these decisions, and so pointing out that someone with a degree is more likely to be more financially secure than someone with only a high school diploma is a valid point.

In regards to Arts vs Science and Kelly's joke Q: "What does the Arts graduate say to the Science graduate?"
A: "Would you like fries with that?"
Then you might compare me and one of my best friends... me, the arts graduate vs her, the science graduate. Neither of us working in our field of study. Both of us working behind-the-computer jobs. Me, earning more.

Like farmer Tom said, a degree can be pretty worthless. But at least it proves you are teachable and can learn. That's often why employers like university graduates.

[66. Rosalie said the following at 12:57 AM on Aug 22:]

66

I’m not sure that anyone is following this anymore but I will still add my two cents.

What has bothered me the most about reading these posts is the generalisation people are making. Caution is needed before all types of loans even loans that are often seen as investments (student loans, morgages).

I have a different perspective than many of you. I am not an American and have never lived in the US. I am three months away from graduating as a medical doctor. I do have a substantial amount of student loans that has made this possible. Without this loan I would not have been able to enter a career that not only do I love, more importantly I strongly believe God has called me to (and certainly helped me through). I do not regret my loans. Ideally I wouldn’t be starting out with this much debt but I would not change my career just so I would not have to get a loan. I would certainly worry a lot more if I wasn’t pretty much guaranteed a job that will pay a good wage (although with compulsory long hours for the first few years). My starting salary will be a bit lower that my total loans but not by a huge amount and will increase to that amount in a couple of years. I also live in a country that has just introduce no interest for student loans along as you stay in that country (l actually voted against this policy in the last election and don’t think it is a good idea as it does not encourage people to make more than the minimum payments, however it will be a help). I plan to live well below my income to pay off my loan as quickly as possible. So I can be free to go into medical mission work (I’m praying about if this is something God wants me to do long term), take time off when I have children, and / or enter a speciality that doesn’t pay heaps if I want to.

I get annoyed by well meaning Christians telling me to avoid all debt without taking into account all of the factors in my specific situation. Not all people have family that live in an area where you can commute to university (esp those who live in rural areas). Not everyone does courses that can be completed part-time or ones that leave any room full time to also work (I have on average 45 hours of contact time on average per week plus more time for study and assignment work). These are great solutions for some people but I wanted to point out that they don’t apply to everybody.

[67. Kelly said the following at 4:28 AM on Aug 22:]

67

xeres said:

"I am sadden that some of you pitted science degrees and Arts degrees against each other. That's not right. "

I didn't mean for it to come across that way. In no way do I think one degree (or lack thereof) is superior to another; because they all require different types of intelligence. People need to use their strengths while also recognising the cost versus benefit of each of the types of degrees.

My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential.

Likewise, if you're very skilled in a trade that will keep you in work, then there's no need to spend money on a degree.

[68. farmer Tom said the following at 11:46 AM on Aug 22:]

68

I understand that you did not make the investment of college, which is fine.

Actually you understand nothing, since I did invest two years of my hard work to pay for two years of college. However, when it came time to borrow money to continue that education, I decided not to go into debt to do something which I was fully capable of doing on my own. I have a library of several hundred books which I have read since college days. Education is much more about applying oneself to acquiring knowledge, than it is sitting in some big room listening to some egghead drone on in a monotone about something he has little practical knowledge of.

Leah said,

But then with the other practically (that is to say, concerning what happens in practice) employers in many industries do prefer someone with a degree, and so that degree, worthless thought it might be in regards to your practical skills, is very worth while in regards to the job it could get you.

Very true, but thats part of the problem.

What ever happened to merit based hiring???

I'll but my intellectual abilities up against any body that posts here, I know what kind of IQ scores I have, and what I scored on the ACT all those years ago, and I can guarantee you that the HR person who refuses to hire someone like me because I don't have a college degree, is well, .....I think it might not be wise to finish that sentence.

Having worked with all kinds of people, I'd much prefer working with someone without the piece of paper. Generally, they work harder, are more open to new ideas and ways of doing things, and are not nearly as arrogant and condescending.

[69. Janelle said the following at 12:29 PM on Aug 22:]

69

I am lucky enough that I could stay close to home and go to the State University. I lived with my parents until I got married, worked enough to pay my school every semester, and when I graduate next fall, I will have no debt!

[70. Phoebe said the following at 1:39 PM on Aug 22:]

70

Amen! I think being willing to attend a state school is a big part of wisdom in this area. I am National Merit Scholar and could have gone to a fancy private school, but I would still probably have had to go into debt. Instead, I stayed home and go to my State school, live with my family, and have great time and financial freedom. I can work when and where I want to, because my generous scholarship stipends (which are on top of the tuition) go straight into my bank account. I can then use the money I've saved to do summer programs that help me develop in my field. God is so good to give me all these blessings. I feel like the slave in the parable of the talents, who has been given much. I know that God will require much of me too, but I hope to learn to be a good steward of the gifts he has given.

[71. KJ said the following at 11:33 PM on Aug 22:]

71

I think it's interesting how many people are plugging state schools here - and if that works for some people, more power to them. In my case, however, I think that the Christian college I attended ($20K in school loans and all) was worth it. When I graduated from high school, my church was going through a very difficult time and legalism was running rampant. Because this was the only church I'd known, this was also the only Christianity I'd ever known - and I thought all that Christians cared about were things like skirt length and whether you talked to members of the opposite sex too much. Going to a Christian college broadened my horizons and helped me to see that there was a lot more to Christianity than that. I don't think I would have "lost my faith" at a state school, but I don't think I would have had those influences that helped me see past the legalism to what true worship and living for the Lord are.

It's less than a decade later, and I am debt-free. I didn't picture my life being like this - for sure I thought I'd have been married much younger - but I am glad for the experiences that I have had through my work, and for the salary and benefits that make ends meet. I wouldn't have that salary OR benefits in many positions that don't require a college education. Since I have ended up providing for myself all these years, it has been a worthwhile investment financially as well as spiritually/intellectually.

[72. Jeremy said the following at 11:37 PM on Aug 22:]

72

"I'll but my intellectual abilities up against any body that posts here"

=)

[73. Louise2 said the following at 7:16 AM on Aug 23:]

73

I don't think college is for everyone but I find some of the comments on this thread unnecessarily derisive towards the academy. Higher education is more than just reading library books or gathering information on the internet-ultimately a liberal arts education is about how to think critically, examine ideas, read, and write. In an age where few careers will last for an entire career, the ability to learn and adapt is the most valuable asset someone can have. Moreover, you simply cannot compare reading books by yourself with a humanities education in a university setting. The central part of intellectual training in the humanities is the seminar-a forum for the exchange of ideas on a work or idea. If you read by yourself, you lose that element.

Finally, you simply cannot compare an exam like the CPA to a liberal arts education. Some fields benefit from having an exam. My fiancee is a CPA and works for a big 4 firm. To be honest, he passed the CPA exam and said it was cake. Most of the questions were absolutely irrelevant to his job and the exam was a waste of his time and money. His career will be advanced not by being a CPA but by having worked at as an auditor at a good firm.

I don't think higher education is for everyone but Christians so stop being derisive towards professors. It saddens me that so few Christians seriously engage in the intellectual world, which has allowed rampant secularism to take hold.

[74. BDB said the following at 5:15 PM on Aug 23:]

74

Louise2 (#73) wrote:

>>His career will be advanced not by being a CPA but by having worked at as an auditor at a good firm. <<

Yes and no. I found the Certified Internal Auditor to be pretty easy - but then again, I have the undergraduate liberal arts education and the MBA, so I prepared for it.

A CPA definitely opens doors for people. It's pretty much required to work in accounting, and it's the "preferred" qualification for lots of finance jobs - especially in companies where the jobs are focused on preparing financial statements.

And you can't even sit for the CPA exam without 24 units of accounting and an additional 24 units of business classes. The degree programs "teach to the test" and thus prepare people. Engineering and Architecture are the same way - there's a test to take for a license, and that definitely shapes the curriculum.

Personally, most of the CPA's I've worked with are intimidated by the chaos in the rest of a business. Some of them prefer to hide in the ledger; they aren't good at making decisions or managing people. But all personality styles can be subject to criticism - sales people are notorious for being unable to manage to a budget.

Though I have to admit, with my political science degree, a lot of people are very confused about how I got into finance. My friend with a Biology degree had the same problem. We're both really good at math. So I became a Certified Internal Auditor, he's taking the test to become a Chartered Financial Analyst. The certifications help get around the **perceived** limitations of your undergraduate major.

If you want to master a field, you do need to follow the discipline of a curriculum. While Farmer Tom has no doubt learned a lot through self-education, most people don't continue serious reading after they leave school. It's been my experience that someone with a master's degree in any subject typically has the discipline to organize themselves and master new subject material on their own.

Kelly (#67) wrote:

>>My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential. <<

Actually, you need both. My cousin just graduated from law school after completing an undergraduate degree in English. The Arts are about words, all those degrees are compatible with the legal profession. There's no math on the LSAT after all...

All the science degrees are good preparation for the medical profession...oddly enough, you can go to medical school with a Biology degree, but it's a lot harder to get into nursing with a Biology degree. A friend of mine - with MCAT scores through the roof - only could find two programs that would take her into an M.S.N. program.

For someone who doesn't know what God has called them to do, I recommend a liberal arts degree with a minor in business. The liberal arts degree will teach you to write and organize your thoughts. The business minor is enough to get you hired in a job.

[75. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Aug 23:]

75

skp (#33) wrote:

>>I'm not so sure that getting an MBA from a public business schools is always such a bad idea. I have always thought UCLA, UC at Berkley and U of Michigan's MBA programs were highly reputable. <<

Yes, those four are - if you can get in. Chances are good that you'll end up with almost as much in loans for those programs as with a private program. At that point, it depdends on the field you're looking for. Those programs have heavy quantitative focus, which is good if you want to go into manufacturing or possibly Wall Street finance.

[76. BDB said the following at 8:52 PM on Aug 23:]

76

Kelly (#60) wrote:

>>If I'd studied English Lit like I'd wanted to, I doubt I'd be here now. <<

How funny...my last boss was an English Lit major. He was also Vice-President/General Manager, and made more than enough money for his wife to homeschool the two girls they adopted from Russia.

But he went into sales. He proved himself in sales, then advanced to sales & marketing management. As a VP/GM, he constantly told customer service stories to employees. Over and over and over again he would share both good and bad customer service stories with management, employees...everyone who would listen. Our operation consistently was #1 in sales and #1 in customer growth in the company. Now, he was a good administrator, too, and was smart enough to hire me as his finance guy because he knew that he needed the skills. Keep in mind that part of the reason college graduates earn more is that many of them pursue management positions where they leading a group of people. Communication and writing skills are absolutely critical for that, in addition to understanding what motivates and excites people, and recognizing when that is missing.

If you've ever watched an accountant try to get the sales force excited; you'll see that there are different skill sets out there...

[77. Leah said the following at 6:03 PM on Aug 25:]

77

Kelly said My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential.

Umm... choosing your career isn't just about how much you earn. It's about what you enjoy doing, perhaps where you want to live, how you might be able to serve God. It's ludicrous to say to somebody who adores working in cinema or journalism "you're better off getting a law degree for that amount of money" if they can't stand law.

[78. Ruth said the following at 2:43 PM on Aug 26:]

78

I majored in accounting, am studying for the CPA exam, and have a job lined up at a Big 4 firm. So in all appearances I have been "taught to a test."

But I also majored in the liberal arts, at a school which stressed artes liberales. I'm hoping that with this diverse background I won't be one of those accountants who "hide in the ledger" and "aren't good at making decisions or managing people."

[79. Vanessa said the following at 12:48 PM on Sep 15:]

79

It's obvious we need to do a better job teaching people about money. I've done some work with Junior Achievement. They have a lot of programs in this area. Here's their site, for anyone who is interested www.ja.org.

[1. Jennifer said the following at 10:06 AM on Aug 19:]

1

When starting out, I definitely didn't want to have any debt. However, going to a private school didn't exactly help that plan. But by working hard, living at home for a year after graduation, and pinching pennies, my loans were gone in one year.

I agree, though, with the no-or-low school debt plan. I wish I could've stuck with it, even if it meant transferring. But at the same time, I'm thankful for parents willing to let me live rent-free for a year and pay it all off.

[2. obewan said the following at 10:06 AM on Aug 19:]

2

I was lucky enough to have no loans.

I worked with a new grad from WPI once. She claimed $115K in student loan debts. Her entry level job as a computer programmer paid $32k. Welders at the shipyard she supported made $40 or $50K to start. She had lots of uncompensated over time as well. It really takes some caution I suppose.

[3. Irene M. said the following at 10:28 AM on Aug 19:]

3

Great advice! There are so many people my age who are setting themselves up for a lifetime of servitude because they just "had" to take on tens of thousands of dollars in student loans. Might I add another point? Pay for your own housing. Seriously. I've cut my potential debt in half by paying for rent out of pocket and will now graduate with less than $15,000 in student loans. Yeah, it takes some work. However, if you do your research and create a budget it will minimize your debt.

[4. Nicole said the following at 11:08 AM on Aug 19:]

4

I think students should also consider trade school. They are incredibly practical, usually not too expensive, don't take too long to get through and at the end can start working and earning a decent wage immediately. Its a great way to for young people to start and also a great way for older people to change paths.

[5. Kat said the following at 11:34 AM on Aug 19:]

5

I am doing my first two years of college debt free but getting into nursing school will not allow me to work and pay for it as I go. What suggestions do you have for someone that probably will have to take out close to $25,000 just for living expenses? (the school I am going to is a public university and the majority of tuition is paid for!)
Thanks
(PS I have looked for every scholarship available but have not received any...)

[6. Bertha said the following at 11:50 AM on Aug 19:]

6

The problem is that you have 18 year olds taking out these loans and paying them back is in the distant future. Thankfully, I went to a state school and have a relatively small loan with a good-paying job to pay it off (which I don't plan on quiting anytime soon).

[7. a sassy sister said the following at 11:58 AM on Aug 19:]

7

Heather, you make some good points in terms of college loans. But I have some other questions for you:

1) Do you believe that most colleges and universities offer the preparation and training for the professional world in proportion to what they charge for admission and attendance?

2.) What do you believe to be the purpose of college/university education, and how does that affect your decisions in deciding to take/not take out loans?

[8. Leslie said the following at 11:59 AM on Aug 19:]

8

I agree with everything to the above. I'll finish my graduate degree soon and, combined with my undergrad work, will have taken out almost $20K in loans over the entire period. However, I've been paying down the principle since day one -- even as little as $50 a month makes a difference! It has radically reduced my overall balance and my monthly payments after graduation because that's where they get you -- the interest!

[9. farmer Tom said the following at 11:59 AM on Aug 19:]

9

Just food for thought, although I'm sure someone will post something saying, I being divisive or narrow minded or parochial or something, but maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops.

Dr. Charles Murray seems to think so,

For Most People College is a Waste of Time

[10. Alison said the following at 12:01 PM on Aug 19:]

10

My husband and I have been very blessed to have our educations completely paid for (his via a full-ride, 5 year scholarship and mine via merit scholarships and my parents' generosity). But we watch our friends struggle beneath the weight of oppressive school loans, and it's truly frightening. One couple we know pays almost as much toward their school loans every month as we paid in rent for a nice two bed, two bath apartment! Considering that the husband took out those loans to get a BFA and an MFA at private universities in music and now teaches band at a high school, I really don't know how they're scraping by. I do believe that for some careers, carefully-controlled student loans can be reasonable. Nursing would be an excellent example. For my degree in English? Not so much.

[11. Scottie said the following at 12:10 PM on Aug 19:]

11

Whoa, this is a definite delicate topic. One question to pose, simply due to the timing of this change of social perspective of college debt as now bad debt: How much influence from the current economic state has swayed the idea of said debt to no longer being good debt? Paraphrased from earlier, when times were better, fewer people regretted the debt. Now, as times are tougher, more people regret. I feel this is just an emotional ripple effect of the current economic state. Everyone's dollars have to go farther, BUT, I don't think suggestive regrets of past investments is warranted. Personally, being a bit old fashioned, I feel that today's generation of instant gratification only wants the reward, without the commitment or sacrifice of the investment. Additionally, the benefit of responsibility in meeting these debts and living within a means to cancel these debts is a huge life lesson. I feel that someone coming out of school without the responsibility of reasonable debt could face much more challenging life lessons than those carrying and responsible to debt and finances. If someone has the means to get through school without debt, I think that is great. However, given the choice, I would much rather make the investment and learn, than be afraid of the commitment and never know.

Case in point, an old friend of mine had her dad pay for school. She travelled all over the country and wanted to go the best architect schools and so on. However, this person never learned responsibility and commitment. She ended up coming back to a school closer to home, getting married too soon, cheating on her husband, getting a divorce, and then having to sell her house. This is an extreme example, but all to close to home for me. She is a result of immaturity and irresponsibility at its worst. I am sad for her and feel for her and pray for her, but she is part of the instant gratification generation who have not learned, nor signed up for responsibility.

My apologies if this feels like a one sided argument, but I think the lack of education in our country plays a major role in where we are at now. I feel the knee-jerk promotion of education as bad debt is uncalled for. We are in America. We all live in debt, but we also have jobs to pay the debts.

In regards to the plumber and the doctor, I simply pose the question, do you want to have a higher standard of living, or do you want to be able to help people with the tools God has given you? A person gifted in the sciences and biology has very limited work unless formally educated and certified. A person gifted with their hands has a different path to which is incomparable to that of a doctor. Each helps the kingdom in their own way. Most who have gifts requiring educational investment will live in educational debt.

Again, my apologies, but this is a delicate topic for me and I feel the criticality of higher education for our country far outweighs the knee-jerk reaction of everyone's fears of the economy.

Thoughts?

Scott

[12. nab said the following at 12:12 PM on Aug 19:]

12

Only thing that separates me (debt-free, stuck in a miserable, dead-end, though fairly lucrative job) and my friends who are happy with their daily pursuits is their education. They had potential and they decided to try and achieve it. I had potential and I decided to eat it and go to the cheap school that impresses few employers. Debt-free? Yes. So what.

[13. Anna said the following at 12:13 PM on Aug 19:]

13

I think this is SUCH fabulous advice. While I was growing up and then going off to college (and grad school) I was warned about the dangers of tobacco, drugs, alcohol, and sex. I had great parents and mentors who helped me to avoid typical teenage and college student pitfalls. I was warned about not setting a budget, not spending responsbility, and cautioned to avoid all kinds of consumer debt.

However, when it came to student loans, it was just something you did. And when I managed to get into a great law school, it was simply an opportunity you took where debt load was just how things work.

Now I have one of those crazy loan balances (totaling $175K at the end of the day), and find myself making so many decisions determined not on what I want or love, but on what will help my pay off my loans faster. It's been and will be a big learning experience, and God has been providing to help me accelerate the process, but it's still something I wish I'd done a MUCH better job thinking through beforehand. I have a very understanding boyfriend, but try explaning that kind of debt load to a potential spouse....it's not a fun conversation to have, trust me.

I'd definitely caution anyone consider student loans to rethink and minimize the amount if you decide to take any out at all. Even if you could get out and pay for it over 10 years, the amount of interest you pay pretty much makes your degree twice as expensive. Don't just be wary of the "dumb" debt that many young people pick up, but be excessively careful about the so-called "smart" that's out there too.

Bottom line: Avoid student loans if at all possible!!!

[14. Christina said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 19:]

14

Ah, the student loan nightmare...

[15. Clapham said the following at 12:26 PM on Aug 19:]

15

This assumes the only reason to go to college is to learn how to do a job. What ever happened to education for education's sake?

[16. Miss S said the following at 12:30 PM on Aug 19:]

16

I started college early - first by going to a community college and then transfering to a state university. I was able to pay each semester up front ~ I worked part-time and save up to pay for the next semester. I also lived at home. Not glamorous, but I walked away from college without any debt. I looked at transfering to a Christian University, but when I was the amount of student loans I needed, it was not worth it. Sure I missed out on some college fun, but I would do it again.

[17. mary kate said the following at 12:39 PM on Aug 19:]

17

i was so blessed; my parents were able to pay for my schooling at our nearby state school. i got some scholarships, but i am sooo thankful for my parents' support, and the fact that i didn't have to work during the quarters i was in school (i had co-op, or paid intership, every other quarter). my program was notoriously difficult, and i doubt i would have made it had i been trying to work even part time.

[18. Nicole (from Boston) said the following at 12:49 PM on Aug 19:]

18

I'm so there!! I'm in nursing school so I know that I have a good job waiting for me as soon as I graduate from college. However, I attend a state school and I should (because of a combination of scholarships, savings, and generous parents) graduate with less than $20,000 to pay back. I had a conversation with a nurse at my job a couple weeks ago about schools and she mentioned that she has about one year left before her school loans are paid off...and she's at least in her late 20s. I'm hoping that's not the case with me (and unless something goes very awry, it shouldn't. :) )

[19. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:51 PM on Aug 19:]

19

Ok.

This is frustrating. Yes, I know debt is a bad thing.

Yes, I know its difficult to pay off student loans.

Yes, I know how to avoid future student loans (for myself and my family) and why that would be a GOOD thing to do.

Where were you guys when I had a private school practically begging me to go to their school, my dad made it clear he'd like me at the private school, and I had it made in a state university?

Why wasn't I aware that "Financial Aid" meant years and years of debt that would put a hold on all my dreams and plans?

But here's the thing - what kinda help is out there when you can't find a roommate, moving home isn't a solid option, and after 2 years your only now realizing what its gonna take to pay off those loans? (Because paying the minimum payment that is on my statement apparently is NOT the right idea to be debt free in 10 years).

I'm not a spendthrift and have actually worked to save up enough money for a downpayment on a used vehicle (which I desperately need..considering my current vehicle is sitting in the apt parking lot unable to start). You'd think that making an engineer's salary would make ends meet, but apparently living expenses are a force to be reckoned with.

Looks like I'm going to be making even tighter changes to my current budget.

[20. Jacob said the following at 1:56 PM on Aug 19:]

20

Some of this begs the question, "what is the purpose of education?" If it is to learn practical job stills or knowledge of a field, then yes, state colleges or trade schools might be sufficient. However, if education is about more than mere "practicality" and dehumanizing efficiency, then all options are far from being worthy.

[21. Rachael said the following at 1:57 PM on Aug 19:]

21

Community college, scholarships, going to school in-state, some financial assistance from my parents, work (especially during my 1st 2 years & summers, working abroad after getting a BA, and a 1 year TA-ship which paid for most my tuition one year of grad school), and living at my parents' for about 4 of my 6 years of higher ed. made it so I didn't have to take out any loans and have savings in the end. Now I have a quarter-by-quarter job and don't make that much. I'm glad to not have loans.

But I bet a lot of peoples' valuable times at expensive private schools make the money worth it. Especially when a spouse comes along with the degree ;). God's ultimately in control, but a lot of spouses do meet each other in college, and there might be a greater abundance of condensed potential options at a Christian school. Not necessarily any more options than one would have elsewhere (and it only takes "one"), and I know that not every private school graduate ends up with a degree in one hand and a spouse in the other, but still...

Many years ago, I'd considered and been interviewed for a private school in another state. I ended up at a local community college in my own state. If my future child were in that situation, I don't think I'd necessarily encourage them to do the community college option unless it seemed to be what they wanted and that it would be good for them. Often there's probably a lot of good that comes with private schools. I'd want the best for my child and I 'd know that God could work through either option.

[22. P&P said the following at 2:12 PM on Aug 19:]

22

Thanks for mentioning the state college option. It's about time public education got its due.

The one thing that also needs to happen is for schools to offer a "work your way through" program. It doesn't mean that you have to sweep floors (not that there's anything wrong with that), but to offer students a flexible class schedule, part time options and even paid internships and co-op jobs to help offset the cost of tuition. Some schools already do this, however I'd like to see even Ivy League schools offer this option.

Finally, don't discount community college as well. Most state collges allow community collge credits to transfer towards a Bachelor's and the tuition is significantly lower.

That being said, if you get into MIT or CalTech, go. Those schools are truly worth the money.

[23. BDB said the following at 2:19 PM on Aug 19:]

23

I do think that your rules are good ones to get people to think ahead. If your chosen profession has low starting pay, adjust your debt accordingly.

All debt carries risk. If you score, say, in the top 10% of those standardized tests, you can probably afford to take more risks in this area and go to a better school. But it's still much better to use your test scores to get scholarships. If you get into Harvard or Yale, it's probably worth it to take out the loans; you will be challenged to grow a lot faster and will likely do better in the work place.

But note that most people who go to graduate school, such as Yale Law school or Harvard Medical, actually complete their undergraduate degree at a small liberal arts college, not a public university. But you need to be pretty motivated about joining a profession to go this route.

A business-school degree from a public college or University of Phoenix will help you get your first job. But those programs are NOT designed to prepare you for senior management - they are designed as entry-level training. You will need to go to graduate school to make up for the deficiencies in a standard business degree education - if you are called to do more than mid-management. Most people aren't.

The other recommendation I'd make is that if you're taking out loans for living expenses - finish faster. If you stretch out a graduate degree for five years, using loans to pay for both tuition and some living expenses, you're need to pick: either live within your work income and go to school part-time, or go "all in" and finish school in 1-2 years. Some MBA programs like Dartmouth or Harvard require all students to go to school full time and not work for 2 years. But those programs turn out top notch graduates who command large salaries when they are done.

If you can get in.

If you want to be a mom by age 25, avoid loans like the plague.

[24. BDB said the following at 2:24 PM on Aug 19:]

24

There is another way to pay off student loans: investments. Due to the real estate economy over the last few years, I know a bunch of people who sold their house and paid off their student loans after just a couple of years. Others learn how to understand - and invest in - the stock market at age 22. A good education can help you avoid making expensive mistakes. Just keep in mind that most people who are "upwardly mobile" got there through investment gains, not salary.

[25. BDB said the following at 2:28 PM on Aug 19:]

25

Lest I forget - you reall need to pray about how God wants you to pay for school. Don't underestimate God's ability to provide opportunities. It might be a scholarship, it might be non-loan financial aid, it might be a job at a university that gives you free tuition. Be flexible.

[26. Victoria said the following at 2:48 PM on Aug 19:]

26

I definitely agree that taking on massive amounts of student debt is not wise. That said, I went to the best (and most expensive) college that I got into, a top-tier school from where I received a great financial aid package but nevertheless took on some loans, totaling about $7K at graduation -- and I paid them back in full within 3 or 4 months after that, due to the great job I landed using my admittedly expensive degree. (I did have to work nights and weekends during all four years of college and contributed about $14K a year towards my education.) I am now 25 and make a six-figure salary at my dream job, something I could not have done without going to college. I must say, Farmer Tom, what do you have against higher education? I agree with you that taking on a mountain of debt is unwise; however, I recall that you often mention your struggles with meeting ends meet for your family, etc. Do you think if one of your children had an opportunity to go to college through scholarships, financial aid, and maybe a little bit of loans, you would discourage him or her from going? Even if it meant that they could one day make a more comfortable living for themselves and their families? Don't we all want our children to do better than we did, isn't that the point? That's certainly why my parents, both poor blue-collar immigrants, sacrificed to put me through college!

[27. BDB said the following at 2:49 PM on Aug 19:]

27

Scottie (#11) wrote:

>>Thoughts?<<

Hmmm...on a medical missions trip, one of my biggest frustrations was that the shower in the church-run apartment we were in constantly leaked water on the floor. We had a roofer with us, but it would have been great to have a plumber along.

As an aside, I've never used my undergraduate biology training for work. However, on said mission trip, I was the only one who immediately started drinking water from the ceramic-filter water station. Why? Because I'd done lab work using filter equipment, and I recognized the technology. Everyone else was afraid to drink that water at first. Ironically, I'm the only one who didn't get sick on the trip.

Don't underestimate the ability of God to use your knowledge in a place you'd never expect...

[28. Laura said the following at 3:09 PM on Aug 19:]

28

I heartily agree with the necessity of avoiding debt whenever possible, and taking practical steps to reduce the cost of education (for example: ever seen "Good Will Hunting"? Dropping 150 grand on an education you could've gotten for a buck fifty in late fees from the library... well... not such a good idea.). DUH! That's about stewardship. God has entrusted us with resources and countless blessings, and we ought to take very seriously the responsibility to deal wisely with what is ultimately HIS money!

I also couldn't agree more with the person who remarked on the rather chilly, utilitarian bent of this conversation -- education isn't about letters after your name, and it certainly isn't about getting the right job. It's about BEING educated: training, sharpening, and using the mind God has given you. That's one reason I think trade schools and that ilk are bad news.

So here's my advice, as a person who's several years out of college and still chipping away at those blasted loans:

1. If you're good at working with your hands, do it. Just do like Will Hunting did and get your education from the library -- sharpen your God-given mind!

2. If you want college education but don't need a degree, audit classes from a local university. Check out the incredibly vast array of online resources for theological education from places like Desiring God and Acts 29.

3. If you want a college degree, go for it. Just be wise. Take classes at a junior college or go in-state. Work your backside off in the summer. View college as an educational experience to be exploited at every turn for your own benefit -- as my pastor says about seminary, "You better work the system or it'll work you."

And one final note, regarding college and husbands: honey, I went to that expensive, private, Christian liberal arts university and STILL graduated single. And then I went to get a layman's degree at a seminary absolutely busting at the seams with eligible Christian men, and STILL graduated single. If God's purpose for you is to get married, well, even if you're slogging through boring courses at a third-rate junior college and living at home... his plans will not be thwarted. You're not going to miss out on his plan by choosing the "wrong" college. He is SOVEREIGN!! :)

[29. Heather Koerner said the following at 3:29 PM on Aug 19:]

29

a sassy sister (#7):

#1: No
#2: I tend toward the practical view of a college education: preparation for a profession. I know there are others who would emphasize, as some put it, "education for education's sake."

On another blog, Tom N. talked about the core curriculum: "wise elders, through lifelong learning and hard-earned wisdom, have decided what an educated person needs to know in order to be a fully rounded citizen."

I'm a little jaded toward that view because my own higher ed experience included so much secular worldview. My own education on a biblical worldview has come from a lot of reading, which didn't cost me much.

Whichever way one tends (for most, I would guess they see a college education as including both a well-rounded and thinking citizen and learning a profession), it wouldn't change my advice much.

Want to be an accountant? Okay. Get an accounting degree, but count the cost. If you plan to take on debt, know how long you will be working and how many choices you will give up to pay off that degree.

Want to become an educated citizen on student loans? Same thing. Count the cost.

[30. Carrie said the following at 3:41 PM on Aug 19:]

30

I think it is great if you are able to live at home, work during school, only take classes when you can afford it and all the other things one can do to reduce their student loan debt. However I am really irritated with blogs like this and many of the responses so far that fail to take into account that we do not all have the same options. I am not a US citizen and did not grow up here. The only way for me to finance an education was through loans because my family would never have been able to save enough. As it was I worked all through high school and then for 4 years after full time to save enough along with what my parents also saved to pay for 1 year of school. So by time I started my freshman year I was 22 going on 23. Yes there is a conversion factor for the dollar so what looked like a lot really was not. So everything else tuition, food, room etc was all paid through loans so yes after a BS and an MBA I do have in the region of $150,000 in loans. However the working while studying, the scholarships, the work study programs etc were not available for a non citizen I could only work 20 hours a week and only on campus for $7.25 an hour. I am not sure how far anyone could realistically expect that to go. I also had the added burden of “out of state” tuition but then anywhere I went would have been out of state for me even if I went to another country. I could and did work more in the summer but once again even at 40 hrs 7.25 before taxes only does so much, it does not pay for books or tuition, it did by groceries and sometimes pay the electricity bill however. Yes so I am doing the student loan “nightmare” however, I would not have any of the opportunities or be doing the work I am today without those loans. So when I write my $700+ cheque each month for my private loans I give God thanks that 1. I can pay the bill and that 2. with long life and good health I will pay them off. And no I never saw myself as a stay at home Mom – a mom yes but not a stay at home one so that does not worry me.

[31. Sarah said the following at 3:52 PM on Aug 19:]

31

I just wanted to point out that not everyone can pay for school even with the help of the offered scholarships and grants. While they have helped lower the cost of my loans the cost of a private school is greater. while it is great to be debt free not everyone has that choice.

[32. Brad said the following at 4:17 PM on Aug 19:]

32

If I had to do it all over again I would have done it debt free, or I would have waited to go to college altogether after working or going into the military for a few years beforehand. I would not recommend graduate school to anybody unless you have experience in the field, you enjoy it, and you need the graduate degree to get ahead in that field.

[33. skp said the following at 4:38 PM on Aug 19:]

33

BDB-
I'm not so sure that getting an MBA from a public business schools is always such a bad idea. I have always thought UCLA, UC at Berkley and U of Michigan's MBA programs were highly reputable. Reputations of public and private schools vary for any program. It's not a public vs private thing. People just need to do the research.

[34. Jorden said the following at 4:45 PM on Aug 19:]

34

This has been a huge issue with me trying to pick out a college. I'm a senior this year and it's getting to that crunch time where I need to decide soon. I feel like God wants me to go to this college in Indiana(I live in Missouri), but the tuition with room and board is 25K a year. I currently don't have a job, and my parents aren't prepared to deal with that kind of money for a college so I've been trying to decide what to do.

There is a local christian college where if you work 15hours a week you can go for free, but the main problem with that college is my dad makes over the amount they want you to have for the level of need and they only let in 30 students that don't fit that amount, and that is a very small margin.

My other choice, which I'm leaning towards, is going to a technical college for 2 years(with scholarships probably, so it'd be free or cheap) and then try to earn some money to go to the college in Indiana for the remainder of my Education. But still unless I get scholarships that's still 50K in student loans. And if I go into a Christian ministry(Which I've been considering) high salaries aren't always avaliable in that field.

So basically I have no idea what I should do, except pray of course. So that's what I'm currently doing, praying and thinking(which the last really isn't getting me anywhere :P).

[35. DannieA said the following at 8:16 PM on Aug 19:]

35

hey all...i´m still on vacation but decided to slightly put my 2 cents.

First decide why you are getting an education...

I just came back to Jersey (my aunt/uncle live there) from Lancaster county in Pennsylvania...Amish country. The Amish have an 8th grade education, and work hard in their farms/trade jobs and make ends meet and beyond...they have a purpose in their lives...
Our purpose might be to be doctors, lawyers, teachers etc...but it´s because we believe it is our calling. If we think this way, I think we would curb our loans...even if we took them and make use of what we learn.

when one gets an "education" merely for the sake of it, thats usually when loan debts pile nice and high.

[36. Elizabeth said the following at 8:59 PM on Aug 19:]

36

I'm one year away from graduating at a Christian university, and I will have a total of $35,000 in loans. My dad and I calculated that with the area I want to live in and the job I want to do, I should be able to pay it off in five years. That assumes that I hold to a pretty Spartan standard of living, of course, which I am perfectly willing to do. It also assumes that I will be able to get a job right away.

What I really feel called to do requires having little or no debt, but I also have to get my degree before trying to get trained.... So I've got a Catch-22. I did go debt-free to a public university for one year, but the environment was counterproductive to my development and most things didn't transfer very well, leaving me with four years at my new school, anyway.

School loans are definitely already changing my plans for the future. I wish I could have got through without borrowing, but if I had to choose again between staying at the state school and transferring to the Christian one, I would probably make the same choice.

If I should live, say, another 60 or 70 years, what is 5 more spent in preparation? I have to believe that I can get out from under the debt and get on with what I'm meant to do.

[37. Becky said the following at 10:10 PM on Aug 19:]

37

there are a number of professions- teaching, public health, social work- that the government feels are badly needed enough to offer loan repayment to individuals who pursue these degrees then spend 10 years working for a nonprofit and can't pay off their loans...
it's a highly individual situation. There's little way to avoid debt in some cases... I'm rather glad my physician took out a loan to go to medical school.
The danger is making generalizations and trying to apply them to everyone. Student loans are neither good nor bad- they're a tool to accomplish a goal, and they can be used well or poorly.

[38. Justice said the following at 11:14 PM on Aug 19:]

38

I finished my BA with $0 in school debt, but got in a small amount of credit card debt towards the end to fly and visit fam and a couple other things. Too bad I graduated at a time with my area had their first net job loss in 40 years

[39. Colette said the following at 11:44 PM on Aug 19:]

39

I wish I had not gone into debt for graduate school. For most of my undergrad I had scholarships to pay tuition, and I didn't take out more than a couple thousand dollars in loans. Easy to pay off.
But for graduate school I took out student loans to pay for tuition and some other expenses. Bad idea. Now as I job search I feel the pressure to find something that will allow me to pay down my debt as fast as possible.

[40. cn said the following at 1:33 AM on Aug 20:]

40

For those of you looking for UGrad or Grad programs and feeling concerned about cash flow, let me recommend the University of Cincinnati. Here's why:

UC is a "Work Co-operative" university that alternates academic quarters with paid practical quarters in your field. I'm a UC grad student right now and I made enough on my last Co-op quarter to pay for my tuition the next quarter. Also, since UC is a state school its easy to obtain instate tuition.

This can be done one of two ways. Students can either apply for Ohio Residency, which requires a paid job (easily done through the co-op program) and I think, takes a year to achieve. Or the shorter route (which I took!), is to move over the river to Northern Kentucky. UC has an agreement with Northern Kentucky to provide near in state rates for residence of about six different counties. It ends up being about $200 more a quarter BUT there is no wait time or paycheck required for Kentucky residency. All you have to do is obtain a drivers license from one of the six counties and you are a resident that very day. With out traffic its a ten minute drive. During rush hour it can take 30 -45 minutes.

Its a great deal financially, and you come out with a stacked resumed, great networking, and fully trained for the work force. There's also the added benefit of using your co-op quarters to live in different places. ;)

For more info, go here:

www.uc.edu

[41. obewan said the following at 5:48 AM on Aug 20:]

41

Farmer Tom Says:
>...just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops....<

The bias in your statement stems from the fact that the article you posted is talking about the BA degree.

I think it has no bearing on a hard science degree like a BS in Engineering. I have no regrets about mine and will be several million dollars ahead at the end of the game vs. the fast food jobs I started out in in dead Michigan right after high school.

Then too, from what I recall from my college days, there was absolutely no comparison between the 'liberal arts' classes I took and the hard science and engineering classes in terms of difficulty. In one, I did not even study and made straight A's, in the other...16 hour days and barely passing with a C in some cases.

[42. obewan said the following at 6:01 AM on Aug 20:]

42

BDB says
>>--Others learn how to understand - and invest in - the stock market at age 22. A good education can help you avoid making expensive mistakes. Just keep in mind that most people who are "upwardly mobile" got there through investment gains, not salary.--<<

Historically, people need to realize that your suggestion is a LONG TERM proposal. Short-term stock market gains depend on hitting/timing the market trends, which can change drastically. If someone buys at the top of an up trend, the profit takers who sell can destroy them. Happens all the time - every 5 years or so. Thank the Lord I sold all my housing related stocks just before the S&L scandal. If I had not, I would have lost over 1/2 my net worth. It is not for one with a weak stomach sometimes.

[43. BB said the following at 6:50 AM on Aug 20:]

43

There are other cheaper options like online or community college but I would have missed this:
1) I'm doing something that I enjoy that I wouldn't have had the opportunity had I not gone to college
2) College was a life experience that I wouldn't trade anything for. Like a 4 years vacation only you had to study. I'll be telling my college days stories to my grandchildren I'm sure.
3) I do make more and since I went State and took the best loans I could find, I'm college debt free. Now my house on the other hand...

My advice based on my experience:
1) Go to a Sate College (cheaper)

2) Live on Campus (allows you to meet and keep up with friends easier - freshman year I met the people I'm still hanging out with 8 years later, go your junior year like most community colleges prep you for and you are joining already set groups or clicks)

3) Borrow as little as possible and search around for the best rate

4) Take a part time job that has some kind of perk that you enjoy

5) Plan for only 4-5 years there. (I've had friends do more but their last year or two, his friends all graduated and he was stuck hanging out with people much younger then himself) - If you take 12 hours, that allows you to lead & attend a bible study, work 25 hours a week, and hang out with friends as much as you would like while graduating in 5 years. That was perfect for me.

[44. Julia H said the following at 8:34 AM on Aug 20:]

44

Re. comments 15 and 20

Education is an honourable pursuit; however, education for education's sake is a luxury, not a requirement. I do not believe that a loan in this case is a wise decision.

If education is important to you, you should be willing to wait, work and save your money for it, particularly if it will not pay for itself in the long run with a career.

I think too many Christians are duped into believing that education is a virtue or a necessity. Education can too easily be set up as an idol and many Christians struggle with pride in this area. We ought to examine our hearts in this area and ensure that we do not have a worldly perspective on education. How will acheiving your goals in this area help to further the kingdom of God?

Christians should never take out a loan without the intention (and by this I mean a feasible plan) to pay it back in a timely fashion. To take a loan expecting it to be forgiven is not honest.

How can one take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for an education that will leave them working for a salary that will barely cover their cost of living? How would one go about paying back such a loan?

In addition, the Bible is very clear: "If a man shall not work, he shall not eat." If you plan to have a family, then you should plan to be able to support them.

If you have the luxury of being able to pursue education due to your wealth or due to your great intelligence (scholarships) then do it, but do it with gratitude in your heart that you have a privilege that is reserved for very few.

Also, education is something that can be pursued for free. Get a library card and read. Use the internet. You can aquire a gerat deal of knowledge in this manner. You just will not have any intials at the end of your name to show for it. If this is a problem for you I would question whether your goal is education or prestige. If it is the latter, this would be an indication of pride.

I will add that both my husband and myself have student loans and it has greatly impacted our freedom. We have chosen to delay having children until the loans are paid off because without my salary, we cannot afford to pay off the loans and live. It has been painful for me to wait as I greatly desire to have a baby and cannot have one. I regret ever taking out loans for my education and often wonder if I should have gone to a trade school instead.

[45. Chris said the following at 10:10 AM on Aug 20:]

45

farmer Tom writes:

Just food for thought, although I'm sure someone will post something saying, I being divisive or narrow minded or parochial or something, but maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper which says that you are capable of following directions and jumping through hoops.

Dr. Charles Murray seems to think so,

I agree that for some, it is a worthless piece of paper. Murray's solution, however, isn't much better. With a bunch of certification tests, alternative educational programs will simply "teach to the test." Even the CPA model Murray proposes requires education and experience beyond the test.

That said, certification that included a "residency" or experience component would certainly help. I've seen many a person with a degree who didn't know the very basics of what they supposedly studied.

[46. Fatz McConnell said the following at 10:57 AM on Aug 20:]

46

My wife and I saved for our daughters education (should have saved for weddings as well). So there was not much left for them to pay. That is a gift we gave them.
However as an advisor and professor, I have counseled many a student about ways to pay for the schooling.
One option - military. In some cases when you have debt and the military has a real need, there are ways to get the money to pay off the debt. The Guard has some good programs as well.
Another option is to look into the Health and Human Services programs. Or in some cases the B of Indian Affairs. I know a dentist that spent 20 years with the system and retired. Had his bills paid by the government and ended up with the same retirement as a military member.
In Alaska, if you are studying to be a teacher, you can have your debt paid if you commit to X years to teaching in the bush. The same goes for some school districts located in inner city areas. Worth checking.

[47. Tigger said the following at 11:10 AM on Aug 20:]

47

At age 16 the parents sat me down and told me if I wanted to go to college, I had to pay for it myself. No ifs, ands, or buts. So as as a cashier at the grocery store, I worked 20 hours a week at $6/hr. It meant giving up a social life, but I wanted college. Life is hard; we make choices.

I got a merit scholarship that paid tuition and books, and a bit of money dribbled in from tiny one-time scholarships. At college I worked in the local restaurant, shoveling pizzas and cleaning up ice cream. Whatever it took. One semester I held down five disparate jobs to keep the money coming in, because on top of wanting shampoo and pizzas, I had to save. Saving was top priority.

I didn't not graduate debt-free, but the debt was negligible, not even 7k. There are only so many hours in a week to be worked and studied. Life happens. I sacrificed having a car for three years but eventually I needed one, and paid cash for it - no car payments for me. I also chose a state school reasonable for what I had to fork out. Probably most importantly, I didn't use a credit card till I was 24, long after school. It makes no sense to me to buy things you don't have the cash for. Most things can wait. If you can pay in cash, you should.

If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now, I'd have started working earlier in high school, pre-planned for study abroad and internships that don't pay, and finished without a cent of debt. It's incredibly liberating to graduate and have no ties that bind.

The moral of the story? After school I took off to live abroad - I literally showed up in England with cash, a backpack, and a visa. No job, no house, nobody to help me. I knew I could do it because I had proven I had the moral strength and courage from fighting to stay afloat financially... Having to pay for school made me stronger than I ever could have imagined. When I have kids, they will have to do the same thing. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[48. Anna said the following at 12:34 PM on Aug 20:]

48

If you think the point of higher education is to make more money over the course of your life and have a higher standard of living than if you didn't go to college, then you should think twice about going to college, especially if it means you'll go into debt.

However, if you think the point of higher education is the education in and of itself (as I do) than there is no argument that should keep you from going to college anywhere you want. Of course you can learn by reading and researching yourself without ever having stepped foot on a college campus, but that just cannot be compared to the opportunity to ineract with proffesors who are experts in their fields and the spontaneous discussions that take place among students and professors in class.

You need to go into college with your eyes open and realize what debt will mean in terms of your other life goals, but I think we need to acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with going to school for the sake of going to school. There is no such thing as too much education.

[49. Mel said the following at 12:42 PM on Aug 20:]

49

You missed one huge portion of society here...

I have a dear friend who is studying to become a pharmacist. When she graduates, she'll receive a doctorate and over $200,000 in debt. Her first-year salary will probably be around $50,000. However, her earning potential is sky high... Within a year she could be making $100,000 to $150,000; within five years she could be making half a million. In my opinion, her debt is the best kind possible.

I have another friend who graduated med school several years ago with over a half million in debt, but he paid it off within ten years. He's a brilliant doctor and his investment in his education has paid of tenfold.

You're drawing a thick black line between "good" debt and "bad" debt, but really the line is much fuzzier. True, some types of debt are bad, but not all debt is bad.

[50. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:10 PM on Aug 20:]

50

Chris (#45),

I think that the point that Dr. (Mr?) Murray was getting at is that if there is a certification test, than there isn't as much need for college education.

The point of college education for a company? To prove that you have the education. The same proof can be obtained in a certification test without going to college.

CPA's aren't the only ones that have this - to sell insurance, you must pass this kind of an exam. To become an actuary, you must pass this kind of an exam.

I can argue (because my dad did this without a college education), that all you need is self-motivation, self-discipline, and a library membership to pass any of those exams. You don't need a college education to do that. In which case, schools WOULDN'T be teaching to a test, because those people interested in taking those tests have less expensive resources available to them in the local public library than they would in a university.

I went to school because I liked to learn - I'm a scholar by the proper definition. I love studying history, philosophy, (pure) mathematics, literature, ancient language, and religion - and I love the atmosphere of being taught and guided through those disciplines by an expert. Which was the traditional setting of universities was - which originated in monasteries.

Problem is, the kind of education I wanted doesn't give you a return on the investment. The kind of life that the traditional university prepared you for is NOT worth the amount of money we spend on education now.

MANY of the careers we attend college for do not need degrees as proof of education - a computer science programmer worth his salt coulda been programming for the CIA straight out of High School with the same kind of skill and knowledge that one with a 4 year degree in it could.

[51. Jo said the following at 1:31 PM on Aug 20:]

51

The thing is, none of us know the future. I did a music degree at college. I didn't know what I wanted to do, I just wanted to get a degree because that's what you're 'supposed' to if you have brains, and besides, I had no clue what else to do instead. Farmer Tom's advice probably would have applied to me: I wasn't working towards a clear goal, I didn't have a coherent reason why a degree was a good idea, other than social expectation and the assumption that more job opportunities would be available to me if I had a degree.

However, 3 years on from graduation, I'm now doing my MA, heading towards a very clear goal and career that without my degree would never have been possible for me. So although at the time my reasoning wasn't necessarily what some here might consider 'sensible', I'm very very glad I did get that degree.

I should add that I had only a very small loan from that degree, as I stayed at home while studying - but that isn't always possible for everyone, nor is it always the right choice. I think financial considerations always have to be balanced against other things. While education shouldn't be an idol, perfect finances shouldn't be either. Acquiring debt isn't the end of the world if you're aiming to use and develop your skills for God.

[52. Daniel said the following at 1:37 PM on Aug 20:]

52

I don't think the lines are quite as defined as people have stated as WHERE you go to college is critical when considering a cost-benefit analysis. Attending Stanford University and attending Santa Clara University are roughly equivalent in terms of costs (cost of living, tuition, etc) but in terms of the end benefits (opportunity, starting salary, prestige) they are not.

I would also say that a college education and a certification test serve different purposes and are not equivalent. When employers look at Certification tests, it shows them that you know how to do a certain function. When employers look at your college education, it is more used to evaluate a candidate's determination, drive to excel, creativity, and innovation. I wouldn't say that that's true for the majority of employers, but for positions at the top consulting firms like McKinsey, Bain, and Booz Allen Hamilton or tech firms like Apple or Google, you have to show more than just that you have the necessary skills and your college experience often helps define that.

[53. Elizabeth Crabtree said the following at 4:25 PM on Aug 20:]

53

Well said, Julia. I am a thirty-something who is still in the throws of college debt and longing to move on to children and a "fuller life." I wish I would have understood the impact of student loans-they have been a thorn in my side for far too long. That being said, I absolutely loved my private Christian college experience, and don't necessarily think I would change it if travelling back in time. I cherish my life-long friends I made and the fantastic experience of learning (though I agree on checking one's motives for fancy degree letters). I don't know that I could have significantly reduced the amount that I borrowed at the time, but I could have hit the debts a lot harder when coming out. I let them collect capitalized interest for periods of time when I could not pay. I would encourage anyone in their twenties to consider themselves young enough to hit the debts hard, make sacrifices, and clear the path for future freedom. (I can still do this too, but I feel much more pressed at my age). This subject truly breaks my heart. Thanks for your collective wisdom everyone.

[54. Jeremy said the following at 9:03 PM on Aug 20:]

54

In response to farmer Tom (#9):

"...maybe just maybe some of you are wasting your time and your money paying for a worthless piece of paper..."

From the post: "...college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma."

Maybe a college-level English course would have taught you the definition of "worthless"? =)

[55. Verde said the following at 5:08 AM on Aug 21:]

55

It seems like most of the posts are students who have thought about the consequences of debt. If I might add another thought, our state has a program called Post Secondary Education Option and this allows college classes to be taken during high school that double as credit for the high school classes. You graduate with both the college credit and the high school class credit. The state pays for it and the books are a loan but they are free!!! You give up being at your high school for some of the day but you can crank out some credits on the liberal arts classes that you are obligated to take for the first few years. Also, community colleges are awesome opportunities for these same classes. These are not for everyone but they are great places to start!!! Godspeed everyone!!

[56. Melanie said the following at 5:59 AM on Aug 21:]

56

Looks like CNN must be following your blog! They posted this article just today:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/index.htm?cnn=yes

[57. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:04 AM on Aug 21:]

57

Daniel (#52),

What would it say about determination when an employer looks at a group of certifications attached to resumes and finds out that the highest scoring test came from a man with no college education, no address, and the first time they met he was wearing ratty jeans and undershirt covered in paint, while the rest of the certifications were from students who had degrees from Stanford, Harvard, and Yale?

What do you think an employer is going to think when they see a higher score on a certification for a guy who did not graduate from college, worked as at a plant nursery, and had 5 kids before he was 35 vs a certification from a guy who failed the test the first two times he took it, attended an ivy league school, and has only 2 kids well into his 40's?

I'll tell you what an employer is going to think - the man with NO college education is significantly MORE intelligent, that he could teach HIMSELF enough to pass this exam with such a high score, has MUCH more drive and discipline to have actually done this without professors breathing down his neck while struggling to provide for a family in a job that doesn't pay that much.

I'd think that the men like Chris Gardner and my father are much more impressive and show much more skill without a college degree than any harvard or yale grad out there - because they know how to learn and proved it by studying on their own for exams that ivy league grads struggle to pass.

And I disagree that a certification test locks you into one skill. If anything, a college education with a specific major does that more effectively. A man who passes a certification exam with no college education has proved that he can learn anything on his own. A man with a college degree has proven that he can listen to teachers for four years in one subject and pass an exam.

I had a 1300 SAT score prior to my 4 year education in Mathematics. The score was split nearly 50/50 - 660 in verbal, 640 in quantitative. After 4 years of college, I took my GRE. I still did good (I think I got a 1200), but the gap was higher - quantitave won out at around 700-800.

A 4 year degree drastically affects your other disciplines when you have to focus on one major. For someone who learns easily on their own and has the discipline to teach themselves, it doesn't lock you in as much - but for the average university grad, it locks them in to their career more than studying for a certification test does.

[58. Scottie said the following at 11:00 AM on Aug 21:]

58

Here we go again...

Please everyone, remember that these are only our opinions and not to take things personally or become rude towards each other.

This is a hot topic, but nonetheless, we all share differences of opinions and experience. Please be nice to each other.

Thanks!!

[59. farmer Tom said the following at 11:55 AM on Aug 21:]

59

54. Jeremy

"...college grads make 60 percent more than those with only a high school diploma."

Ok, Jeremy you win. Well, at least if you define success as, "He or she who makes the most money wins."

I on the other hand and many others here I suspect, have a different standard,

Philippians 1:21, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

don't like that one, Jesus said,

Matthew 6

19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:"

So, is that it Jeremy? Do you define success by how much money you make???

I know that's what the college professors taught you, question is, did they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and was their highest priority Living for Him?

[60. Kelly said the following at 12:01 PM on Aug 21:]

60

Perhaps the caution should apply to someone doing a 'general' degree. Anything with an Arts suffix is something I would be wary of.

How many of you know the joke that goes like this?
Q: "What does the Arts graduate say to the Science graduate?"
A: "Would you like fries with that?"

In other words, the earning power of a specific science/accounting/law degree is much higher than that of a generalist degree.

I hedged my bets when I studied: a dual Science and Information Technology degree. I've not used the science degree one bit but the earnings in IT paid off my study within the first 5 years. If I'd studied English Lit like I'd wanted to, I doubt I'd be here now.

[61. xeres said the following at 3:13 PM on Aug 21:]

61

sigh: I don't know what to say. I think the real issue is stewardship and using your resources wisely. It also is dealing with the issue of the American sense of entitlement and how it negatively affects a Christian's ability to practice stewardship.

Being financially responsible is very important. Living within one's means is crucial to good stewardship. I'm a saver by nature. I know my limitations. But I find several comments on the matter to be dehumanizing, miser-like and utilitarian (in a negative way). There is no such thing as finanical security; it is an illusion. Financial freedom is the only thing we are guarnteed to have, not financial security.

I am sadden that some of you pitted science degrees and Arts degrees against each other. That's not right. Not everyone wants to be in computers and sciences anymore than everyone wants to be in humanities and journalism.

That said, I would like see more people going to college because they geniunely want to be there, making use of the time and resources college has to offer. I would rather have a b+ student who is there because he or she wanted to be there with a plan than a genius who was there just for appearences and economic prestige but with no plan

[62. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:17 PM on Aug 21:]

62

Xerxes (#61),

Though it is true that science degrees get more payout than art degrees, I'm personally of the opinion that the art degrees (English, Philosophy, History, Languages, pure Mathematics) require a bit more intelligence. Satisfy yourself with the give and take ;)

**Duck from the mob of angry BS'ers**

[63. Bertha said the following at 4:32 PM on Aug 21:]

63

Personally, I think my college education was well worth the under $20,000 in student loans I took out. Just from the financial standpoint, I make about 70% more in my (degree required) job than I made while working in the same area (without a degree) while in school.

[64. Jeremy said the following at 5:43 PM on Aug 21:]

64

"So, is that it Jeremy? Do you define success by how much money you make???

I know that's what the college professors taught you, question is, did they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and was their highest priority Living for Him?"

Actually, yes, more on that in a second. But first, I think you may come off as a bit more bitter than you mean to. I understand that you did not make the investment of college, which is fine. But for the many that did, it has a number of rewards, and yes, among those are financial rewards. Does this mean everyone that goes to college is obsessed with money to the exclusion of all else? Of course not, any more than that would be true of everyone who keeps their money in an interest-bearing account. Being a good financial steward is not the same as valuing wealth above God.

I did attend a Christian university for my undergraduate degree, and it was an experience that for me was well worth it. Not merely because it raises my earning potential, but because it was an unparalleled opportunity to focus on growing in knowledge, strengthening my relationship with God, and developing deep friendships.

[65. Leah said the following at 7:28 PM on Aug 21:]

65

farmer Tom- I would agree with you that practically (that is to say, as far as your practical skills go), most degrees are relatively useless.

But then with the other practically (that is to say, concerning what happens in practice) employers in many industries do prefer someone with a degree, and so that degree, worthless thought it might be in regards to your practical skills, is very worth while in regards to the job it could get you.

Also, your attack on Jeremy was unwarranted. I will agree that financial gain should not be our sole purpose in choosing our degree/career. But the point of this article is about the financial ramifications of these decisions, and so pointing out that someone with a degree is more likely to be more financially secure than someone with only a high school diploma is a valid point.

In regards to Arts vs Science and Kelly's joke Q: "What does the Arts graduate say to the Science graduate?"
A: "Would you like fries with that?"
Then you might compare me and one of my best friends... me, the arts graduate vs her, the science graduate. Neither of us working in our field of study. Both of us working behind-the-computer jobs. Me, earning more.

Like farmer Tom said, a degree can be pretty worthless. But at least it proves you are teachable and can learn. That's often why employers like university graduates.

[66. Rosalie said the following at 12:57 AM on Aug 22:]

66

I’m not sure that anyone is following this anymore but I will still add my two cents.

What has bothered me the most about reading these posts is the generalisation people are making. Caution is needed before all types of loans even loans that are often seen as investments (student loans, morgages).

I have a different perspective than many of you. I am not an American and have never lived in the US. I am three months away from graduating as a medical doctor. I do have a substantial amount of student loans that has made this possible. Without this loan I would not have been able to enter a career that not only do I love, more importantly I strongly believe God has called me to (and certainly helped me through). I do not regret my loans. Ideally I wouldn’t be starting out with this much debt but I would not change my career just so I would not have to get a loan. I would certainly worry a lot more if I wasn’t pretty much guaranteed a job that will pay a good wage (although with compulsory long hours for the first few years). My starting salary will be a bit lower that my total loans but not by a huge amount and will increase to that amount in a couple of years. I also live in a country that has just introduce no interest for student loans along as you stay in that country (l actually voted against this policy in the last election and don’t think it is a good idea as it does not encourage people to make more than the minimum payments, however it will be a help). I plan to live well below my income to pay off my loan as quickly as possible. So I can be free to go into medical mission work (I’m praying about if this is something God wants me to do long term), take time off when I have children, and / or enter a speciality that doesn’t pay heaps if I want to.

I get annoyed by well meaning Christians telling me to avoid all debt without taking into account all of the factors in my specific situation. Not all people have family that live in an area where you can commute to university (esp those who live in rural areas). Not everyone does courses that can be completed part-time or ones that leave any room full time to also work (I have on average 45 hours of contact time on average per week plus more time for study and assignment work). These are great solutions for some people but I wanted to point out that they don’t apply to everybody.

[67. Kelly said the following at 4:28 AM on Aug 22:]

67

xeres said:

"I am sadden that some of you pitted science degrees and Arts degrees against each other. That's not right. "

I didn't mean for it to come across that way. In no way do I think one degree (or lack thereof) is superior to another; because they all require different types of intelligence. People need to use their strengths while also recognising the cost versus benefit of each of the types of degrees.

My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential.

Likewise, if you're very skilled in a trade that will keep you in work, then there's no need to spend money on a degree.

[68. farmer Tom said the following at 11:46 AM on Aug 22:]

68

I understand that you did not make the investment of college, which is fine.

Actually you understand nothing, since I did invest two years of my hard work to pay for two years of college. However, when it came time to borrow money to continue that education, I decided not to go into debt to do something which I was fully capable of doing on my own. I have a library of several hundred books which I have read since college days. Education is much more about applying oneself to acquiring knowledge, than it is sitting in some big room listening to some egghead drone on in a monotone about something he has little practical knowledge of.

Leah said,

But then with the other practically (that is to say, concerning what happens in practice) employers in many industries do prefer someone with a degree, and so that degree, worthless thought it might be in regards to your practical skills, is very worth while in regards to the job it could get you.

Very true, but thats part of the problem.

What ever happened to merit based hiring???

I'll but my intellectual abilities up against any body that posts here, I know what kind of IQ scores I have, and what I scored on the ACT all those years ago, and I can guarantee you that the HR person who refuses to hire someone like me because I don't have a college degree, is well, .....I think it might not be wise to finish that sentence.

Having worked with all kinds of people, I'd much prefer working with someone without the piece of paper. Generally, they work harder, are more open to new ideas and ways of doing things, and are not nearly as arrogant and condescending.

[69. Janelle said the following at 12:29 PM on Aug 22:]

69

I am lucky enough that I could stay close to home and go to the State University. I lived with my parents until I got married, worked enough to pay my school every semester, and when I graduate next fall, I will have no debt!

[70. Phoebe said the following at 1:39 PM on Aug 22:]

70

Amen! I think being willing to attend a state school is a big part of wisdom in this area. I am National Merit Scholar and could have gone to a fancy private school, but I would still probably have had to go into debt. Instead, I stayed home and go to my State school, live with my family, and have great time and financial freedom. I can work when and where I want to, because my generous scholarship stipends (which are on top of the tuition) go straight into my bank account. I can then use the money I've saved to do summer programs that help me develop in my field. God is so good to give me all these blessings. I feel like the slave in the parable of the talents, who has been given much. I know that God will require much of me too, but I hope to learn to be a good steward of the gifts he has given.

[71. KJ said the following at 11:33 PM on Aug 22:]

71

I think it's interesting how many people are plugging state schools here - and if that works for some people, more power to them. In my case, however, I think that the Christian college I attended ($20K in school loans and all) was worth it. When I graduated from high school, my church was going through a very difficult time and legalism was running rampant. Because this was the only church I'd known, this was also the only Christianity I'd ever known - and I thought all that Christians cared about were things like skirt length and whether you talked to members of the opposite sex too much. Going to a Christian college broadened my horizons and helped me to see that there was a lot more to Christianity than that. I don't think I would have "lost my faith" at a state school, but I don't think I would have had those influences that helped me see past the legalism to what true worship and living for the Lord are.

It's less than a decade later, and I am debt-free. I didn't picture my life being like this - for sure I thought I'd have been married much younger - but I am glad for the experiences that I have had through my work, and for the salary and benefits that make ends meet. I wouldn't have that salary OR benefits in many positions that don't require a college education. Since I have ended up providing for myself all these years, it has been a worthwhile investment financially as well as spiritually/intellectually.

[72. Jeremy said the following at 11:37 PM on Aug 22:]

72

"I'll but my intellectual abilities up against any body that posts here"

=)

[73. Louise2 said the following at 7:16 AM on Aug 23:]

73

I don't think college is for everyone but I find some of the comments on this thread unnecessarily derisive towards the academy. Higher education is more than just reading library books or gathering information on the internet-ultimately a liberal arts education is about how to think critically, examine ideas, read, and write. In an age where few careers will last for an entire career, the ability to learn and adapt is the most valuable asset someone can have. Moreover, you simply cannot compare reading books by yourself with a humanities education in a university setting. The central part of intellectual training in the humanities is the seminar-a forum for the exchange of ideas on a work or idea. If you read by yourself, you lose that element.

Finally, you simply cannot compare an exam like the CPA to a liberal arts education. Some fields benefit from having an exam. My fiancee is a CPA and works for a big 4 firm. To be honest, he passed the CPA exam and said it was cake. Most of the questions were absolutely irrelevant to his job and the exam was a waste of his time and money. His career will be advanced not by being a CPA but by having worked at as an auditor at a good firm.

I don't think higher education is for everyone but Christians so stop being derisive towards professors. It saddens me that so few Christians seriously engage in the intellectual world, which has allowed rampant secularism to take hold.

[74. BDB said the following at 5:15 PM on Aug 23:]

74

Louise2 (#73) wrote:

>>His career will be advanced not by being a CPA but by having worked at as an auditor at a good firm. <<

Yes and no. I found the Certified Internal Auditor to be pretty easy - but then again, I have the undergraduate liberal arts education and the MBA, so I prepared for it.

A CPA definitely opens doors for people. It's pretty much required to work in accounting, and it's the "preferred" qualification for lots of finance jobs - especially in companies where the jobs are focused on preparing financial statements.

And you can't even sit for the CPA exam without 24 units of accounting and an additional 24 units of business classes. The degree programs "teach to the test" and thus prepare people. Engineering and Architecture are the same way - there's a test to take for a license, and that definitely shapes the curriculum.

Personally, most of the CPA's I've worked with are intimidated by the chaos in the rest of a business. Some of them prefer to hide in the ledger; they aren't good at making decisions or managing people. But all personality styles can be subject to criticism - sales people are notorious for being unable to manage to a budget.

Though I have to admit, with my political science degree, a lot of people are very confused about how I got into finance. My friend with a Biology degree had the same problem. We're both really good at math. So I became a Certified Internal Auditor, he's taking the test to become a Chartered Financial Analyst. The certifications help get around the **perceived** limitations of your undergraduate major.

If you want to master a field, you do need to follow the discipline of a curriculum. While Farmer Tom has no doubt learned a lot through self-education, most people don't continue serious reading after they leave school. It's been my experience that someone with a master's degree in any subject typically has the discipline to organize themselves and master new subject material on their own.

Kelly (#67) wrote:

>>My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential. <<

Actually, you need both. My cousin just graduated from law school after completing an undergraduate degree in English. The Arts are about words, all those degrees are compatible with the legal profession. There's no math on the LSAT after all...

All the science degrees are good preparation for the medical profession...oddly enough, you can go to medical school with a Biology degree, but it's a lot harder to get into nursing with a Biology degree. A friend of mine - with MCAT scores through the roof - only could find two programs that would take her into an M.S.N. program.

For someone who doesn't know what God has called them to do, I recommend a liberal arts degree with a minor in business. The liberal arts degree will teach you to write and organize your thoughts. The business minor is enough to get you hired in a job.

[75. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Aug 23:]

75

skp (#33) wrote:

>>I'm not so sure that getting an MBA from a public business schools is always such a bad idea. I have always thought UCLA, UC at Berkley and U of Michigan's MBA programs were highly reputable. <<

Yes, those four are - if you can get in. Chances are good that you'll end up with almost as much in loans for those programs as with a private program. At that point, it depdends on the field you're looking for. Those programs have heavy quantitative focus, which is good if you want to go into manufacturing or possibly Wall Street finance.

[76. BDB said the following at 8:52 PM on Aug 23:]

76

Kelly (#60) wrote:

>>If I'd studied English Lit like I'd wanted to, I doubt I'd be here now. <<

How funny...my last boss was an English Lit major. He was also Vice-President/General Manager, and made more than enough money for his wife to homeschool the two girls they adopted from Russia.

But he went into sales. He proved himself in sales, then advanced to sales & marketing management. As a VP/GM, he constantly told customer service stories to employees. Over and over and over again he would share both good and bad customer service stories with management, employees...everyone who would listen. Our operation consistently was #1 in sales and #1 in customer growth in the company. Now, he was a good administrator, too, and was smart enough to hire me as his finance guy because he knew that he needed the skills. Keep in mind that part of the reason college graduates earn more is that many of them pursue management positions where they leading a group of people. Communication and writing skills are absolutely critical for that, in addition to understanding what motivates and excites people, and recognizing when that is missing.

If you've ever watched an accountant try to get the sales force excited; you'll see that there are different skill sets out there...

[77. Leah said the following at 6:03 PM on Aug 25:]

77

Kelly said My point is this: if an Arts degree costs just as much as a Law degree, that's not good business sense because the lawyer has a much higher earning potential.

Umm... choosing your career isn't just about how much you earn. It's about what you enjoy doing, perhaps where you want to live, how you might be able to serve God. It's ludicrous to say to somebody who adores working in cinema or journalism "you're better off getting a law degree for that amount of money" if they can't stand law.

[78. Ruth said the following at 2:43 PM on Aug 26:]

78

I majored in accounting, am studying for the CPA exam, and have a job lined up at a Big 4 firm. So in all appearances I have been "taught to a test."

But I also majored in the liberal arts, at a school which stressed artes liberales. I'm hoping that with this diverse background I won't be one of those accountants who "hide in the ledger" and "aren't good at making decisions or managing people."

[79. Vanessa said the following at 12:48 PM on Sep 15:]

79

It's obvious we need to do a better job teaching people about money. I've done some work with Junior Achievement. They have a lot of programs in this area. Here's their site, for anyone who is interested www.ja.org.