How to Interview for a Job, FWIW: Episode #28
by Motte Brown on 08/01/2008 at 3:20 PM
 iTunes | Listen Now/RSS |
If you want to catch a flounder off a pier in the Atlantic, just drop the line straight down by the pilings. Flounder position themselves on the ocean (or inlet) floor near pilings to ambush baitfish.
Another method is to wade the inlets at night during low tide looking for flounder beds. All you need is a flashlight and a gig with one or more points. Flounder blend in perfectly with the inlet bottom but their eyes give them away, reflecting the light from the flashlight.
I know that's more information than most of you ever care to know about flounder fishing. But it's something that's been handed down generation to generation in my family, something that proves a tie that binds for us each year as we meet on the coast of South Carolina, despite our family history sometimes reading like a Pat Conroy novel.
For me it's saltwater fishing; for Lisa it's Laura Ingalls Wilder.
Our host Lisa Anderson just got back from Minnesota -- of Walnut Grove fame -- where she and her family toured "The Laura Ingalls Wilder Historic Highway," hitting all the Disney World-like features such as Plum Creek. And she has her very own pebble to prove it.
Good family sharing time for all in this week's Chat segment.
How to Interview Well -- 5:30
This segment is as much a "how not to" as a "how to." This week, each of us on the panel draw from our own experiences as interviewers and interviewees to give you some practical tips that may help you get multiple job offers. But even if it doesn't, it's still pretty fun to listen to. It's part one of a two-part "How To" series on getting a job and entering the work force well.
The Dark Knight -- 22:45
I keep labeling this week's Culture segment The Dark Knight because it has shattered some sales record previously held by my favorite superhero, Spiderman. (Spins a web any size! Catches thieves just like flies! I'd like to see Batman do that.) And the lovable Bob Waliszewski is back to break down this blockbuster's dark content and artistic value for those of you still holding out for its debut in the dollar theater. BW and Lisa A. also talk about Mamma Mia! and Journey to the Center of the Earth.
A Dangerous Faith -- 33:40
Are you living a life of quiet desperation? Do you want to be more than you are but holding back because you're afraid of being brought low? I think this describes all of us to a certain extent. Like the Roundtable, this week's Mentor Series is the first of a two parter from an interview with Charlie Jarvis, who served in the Reagan and Bush Senior administrations and is a former Focus on the Family executive, on pursuing your highest aspirations without fear.
Doing Dinner Conversation -- 42:43
Everybody has opinions, right? But some people have more difficulty than others expressing them. If you're one of them, it can be a little uncomfortable at dinner parties when everyone but you offers their opinion on Global Warming. You feel pressure to chime in. But should you? Lisa, Ted and I offer some insights from our own experiences.
1. A.M.C. said the following at 3:58 PM on Aug 1:
I have two questions regarding the segment on interviews.
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1. From this segment, I got the impression that factors that deal with the personality of the interviewee may be just as important as the "on-paper" qualifications in an interview. This makes me wonder what should people do if they resist pop culture for philosophical and/or theological reasons (e.g. as mentioned in a Boundless article and podcast) and get a random, unexpected question that they cannot answer because it's a reference to pop culture.
==> What should the interviewee do in this situation? [The "be myself" advice doesn't help if the honest answer is "I don't know and I don't care"-- saying that would seem tactless, if not outright insensitive...]
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2. As already mentioned in the segment, saying outright that "I sincerely feel called by God to apply for this position" is often NOT the best strategy. But what should the interviewee do if this is the most honest answer they have, simply because the application would make little sense in human terms? (This could happen, for example, when the interviewer notices from the resume that the applicant's previous experience is in an unrelated field that presumably pays more.)
==> This raises the more general question: How should a Christian interviewee answer a question in an interview if the honest answer could potentially trigger a conflict of worldview (because the interviewer is not another Christian)?
[For the sake of argument, assume that the atmosphere of the company in general is NOT antagonistic toward Christianity. Is it really worth seeking another company just becomes one person out of the entire company happens to have a different worldview?]
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***Note: Obviously, I know that "pray and trust God's sovereignty" is the best option. What I'm asking for are things people can do in addition to that.
2. Kristina said the following at 4:33 PM on Aug 1:
From an avid fan of Laura Ingalls Wilder (who's visited a few of her homes over the years): I believe the Ingalls lived on Plum Creek, not "Plumb."
3. Andrew said the following at 10:36 PM on Aug 1:
I wish that just once, an employer would make a hiring decision based on qualifications rather than body language, personality, enthusiasm, handshake, or any of the other factors that HR people look for.
(I am not a fan of human resources. Their only function is to create paperwork and complicate the hiring process.)
4. Rachael said the following at 9:48 AM on Aug 2:
re: dinner conversation
I was interested to listen to this segment because at times I find myself in situations where I have no interest in the topic or nothing that I can contribute (content-wise or edgewise).
Good idea about researching info. to expand horizons; also good idea to ask questions.
The question was raised as to whether the desire to participate is a competition issue. In my case, I don't perceive it that way (though maybe I should?) when that happens. Someone suggested it would be a good idea to question the motives. That's a good idea. Maybe it's an issue of pride to want to speak and join in. I want to learn to enjoy watching others enjoy themselves even if I cannot easily contribute.
Good question about how to get a word in edgewise. I think this has happened to me. Perhaps it happens if the converstation contributors are very confident and quick and engaged amongst themselves without expecting particular people to speak up. A tip for people who tend to control or are more outgoing in some conversations (which might at times include me)-- I think it would be good if at times they looked at the quieter people and asked them their opinions, in case the quieter people do have opinions but have a hard time jumping into the quickness. And even if the quieter people don't have opinions, some might appreciate the attempt to include them in the conversation. Perhaps some would prefer to not be acknowledged (if they're really shy), but I suppose that might be evident in the reaction given.
Hmmmmm. Interesting topic.
In all things, love. At least that's what we should strive for.
5. Rachael said the following at 10:27 AM on Aug 2:
A.M.C.,
I know someone who works/worked as a nurse practicioner, and I think she told me that she told her interviewers, "Because I love Jesus," or something like that...I think it's neat that she didn't disguise her faith.
The issue of what to/what not to say might also depend on the type of job you want. If you were going to go into a closed country as a missionary, you might be more careful about the way you say things on an application or interview.
I heard that some people I know had an "intense" conversation (with differing opinions) over resumes -- like whether to include Christian stuff on them or not...I suppose that's up to the individual (although sometimes one might not have a choice if the info. is essential).
With regard to your first question -- if the job you apply for doesn't directly relate to 'pop culture', if in small talk something is said in reference to pop culture and you have no idea about what they are talking about, you could smile and be gracious, maybe even wordless. If a response seems required, you could honestly say, "I haven't seen that movie" (or something)...I think what's important is not so much what you know or don't know about pop culture stuff (unless the job requires that knowledge), but how gracious/kind you are and competent you seem to be (to do the job well). So in your example response "I don't know, and I don't care", you could simply leave out the last bit and leave it at a gracious "I don't know", and my guess is that your not knowing wouldn't be a big deal.
6. Victoria said the following at 1:09 PM on Aug 2:
I'm not sure if this is where I should post this question, but I'm not sure of a better location: I really like the music that is played throughout the Boundless podcasts, but I'm never able to find the music of the respective artists-- several times when the name was mentioned, I tried looking up the artist, and was unable to find any of them. Could Boundless post the artists played in the podcasts, maybe with links to a website/resource where their music can be purchased? Thanks!
7. BDB said the following at 1:15 PM on Aug 2:
A.M.C. #1 had two questions:
#1 Personality: One thing to keep in mind is that most people aren't fired for incompetence, they're fired for not getting along with their co-workers. If you have one person who is very sweet and is adequately competent for the job, and a second person who is significantly smarter than required but is mean to their co-workers, always gossiping negatively and generally nasty to deal with, which would you keep during a layoff?
The in-person interview is to screen for any obvious red-flag behaviors like deception, disrespect, etc. This is especially important in customer-facing positions. But I'll admit that there's an advantage to working in finance: no one expects you to know anything about pop culture. I can just say that I watch the Discovery channel and with 250 channels, I must have missed the thing about, say, Hannah Montana. But I know she's related to Billy Ray Cyrus, whose music I like.
As for putting Christian things on your resume, it's a calculated risk. Yes, some people will discriminate against you. On the other hand, do you really want to work in an environment that is hostile to Christianity? I saw one job I was interested in, and it turned out it was for Planned Parenthood. I got a call from another recruiter for something in the entertaiment industry, and got a bad feeling. I pushed harder, and it turned out to be a string of "gentleman's" clubs that needed a finance person. I declined the interview. They apparently hadn't read that far down my resume where I have the "Christian Ministry" certificate. On the other hand, I got an interview with a water utility because the RECRUITER had a M.Div and wanted to talk to me.
One of the things to remember is that a company that is not a 501(c)3 can't ask you questions about your religion. But you're allowed to volunteer them. So, while my resume doesn't say that I insist on working in a Christian environment, there's a couple of things that someone will pick up on. As I like to say, the most important thing about working in finance is having an honest boss. I'd much rather work for an honest, Christian boss. And I want my resume to have enough information volunteered so that a boss like that will see it and say, "Hey - it looks like this guy really means it."
The secular version of being an honest finance person is being a Certified Public Accountant, Certified Internal Auditor, or Chartered Financial Analyst.
8. BDB said the following at 1:19 PM on Aug 2:
And yes, to pick out an example from popular culture, I had to look up MTV's web site and see what they were talking about today...
9. Motte said the following at 3:40 PM on Aug 2:
Victoria:
If it's an artist we're featuring for the first time, we include an intro and link within the podcast blog. But if it's an artist we've featured before, we typically just rely on the link under the podcast picture titled Listen Now/RSS.
Anyway, this week we're featuring the music from Zelos. Good stuff.
10. J. said the following at 4:41 PM on Aug 2:
I really enjoyed the segment on interviews. I learned a lot of things that I will keep in mind the next time I have to go through the interviewing process (and this is coming from someone who has experience with many different kinds of interviewers and formats).
I do want to comment, however, on something Candice said about the job she interviewed for on Capitol Hill. She attributed her getting the job to praying boldly and to God's wanting to give good gifts to His people. It is true that God wants to bless His people, but we also live in a fallen world which means that we will occasionally suffer disappointments. I, and I'm sure many others on this board, have prayed boldly for certain jobs before only to not get them. Also, at a Christian organization like Focus on the Family, I would hope that the people conducting the hiring process are praying boldly to choose the best candidates. At the same time, if there are 10 candidates for one position, each one is probably praying boldly to be the one hired. So there is a tension. As crushing it can be to be rejected upon having interviewed for a dream job, I do think it is helpful to realize that the hiring process really is about more than just me and my needs. It is also about the needs of the company and the needs of the competition (i.e., the person who does end up being hired).
11. BDB said the following at 12:23 AM on Aug 3:
On the OP:
Flounder tastes terrible.
If you insist on eating fish instead of beef, eat Pacific Salmon.
On group interviews:
Usually, if you're interviewing with several people, they're serious about you. We would do this with management positions especially. My boss would often give me something specific he wanted me to focus on. For one candidate, he wanted me to evaluate their education - they claimed a lot, and he wanted me to test and see if she really knew her stuff. She did, we hired her.
Once I had an interview where I was told that I would be meeting with two people. I prepared for that. When I arrived, there were FIVE in a conference room. Luckily I had extra copies of my resume. I didn't get the job, but I suspect that is just as much due to their internal politics - internally, they had not come to a consensus on what the job ought to be.
I hire for math skills. So far, everyone I've hired who had learned Excel could learn any other type of software and tasks for their job. Those that had never learned Excel often froze when they ran into a complex task on the job. Even Directors and VP's need to know Excel to be able to study the reports necessary to manage the organization.
On Movies:
I went to see the Dark Knight on opening weekend. It was DARK - but everyone applauded at the end. The themes are clearly drawn from some real-life situations. The movie forces the viewer to grapple with them. The questions surrounding what constitutes the legitimate use of force are critical ones that must be answered anew by each generation in a democracy, especially when that democracy is a superpower.
Heck, now that I think about it, I notice that the presidential poll numbers have changed significantly since the movie opened.
On dinner conversation:
You notice on this blog sometimes a person weighs in for the first time - mentioning that they've read articles and comments for a long time before saying anything. Maintaining a civil discourse is important for people to be willing to join in the conversation.
But the same thing mentioned in the Inbox happens in reverse. Say that you have two people who have discovered that they're both well-read and want to talk about an Idea. But they're with 10 other people who don't function in the world of ideas, and laugh at them discussing a serious subject instead of American Idol or the guy they like. I've learned that sometimes the really quiet person at a cocktail party might be the smartest person in the room; they're simply deferring to their spouse who wants to be social and make small talk. I've been in situations where someone was almost completely a silent listener until I specifically asked them questions about what they do...and I find out they're an executive or scientist or something but don't want to intimidate people.
For further treatment on this subject. I recommend the "Friendship" chapter in C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves.
12. Carrie (the original) said the following at 6:01 AM on Aug 3:
A.M.C.'s questions reminded me of the frustration I felt right out of college, submitting resumès left and right for the first time. My objective, in retrospect, was laughable. It was eye catching and got me interviews - although, now, I'm pretty sure they just wanted to interview me just so they could see what kind of person would put such verbiage in their objective and never had any serious intention of actually hiring me.
My objective in my first resumè: "To serve God in both my community and workplace"
Even now I chuckle in disbelief of previous ignorance.
13. Rachael said the following at 3:33 PM on Aug 3:
Carrie ~ what a cool objective! I think sometimes younger people are bolder with regard to faith issues. I remember one time when in college a friend and I went into a grocery store to ask people who they thought Jesus was as the topic for a "top ten" list (in this case, the top 10 responses to that question) for a church college group newsletter we did. I absolutely do not have the boldness to do that in that way at least now. Cool that you had the boldness to do that then. I think it would be neat if at a "secular" interview someone would upfront say (maybe in an interview or something) they desire to bring glory to God through doing their best as a________doing _________(or whatever) if they had an attitude of humility, honesty, and grace. I'm not that bold, but, I think it could be a neat thing...
14. A.M.C. said the following at 4:35 PM on Aug 3:
Re: Rachael (#5), BDB (#7), Carrie (#12)
Thanks for the responses. I do have a follow-up question, though:
3. Sure, the interviewee can certainly choose to withold references to his/her Christian faith during the interview. But I can't help but to wonder whether this is tantamount to telling half-truths, if not outright apostasy. (I can't remember the Bible passage off the top of my head-- isn't there a passage that says that Jesus would deny you if you deny Him?)
[Yes, I know that we're supposed to be "as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves" (Matt 10:16). The point is simply that the interviewer basically has to choose between either risking discrimination or risking acting unnaturally due to having to overwork the brain censoring the "Christian" material.]
==> Clearly, neither is ideal. But just looking for "Christian-only" organizations and/or "openly Christian" employers isn't practical either. Is there a way to mention Christian elements in an interview without giving the impression that you're proselytizing?
15. Jo said the following at 4:50 AM on Aug 4:
This is an odd discussion to me. The 'previous employment' section of my CV says that I've been a Christian schools worker, and my references have always included an elder from my church. I'm not sure I'd bring up Christianity in an interview unless it was specifically asked, but it's never even occurred to me to cut relevant Christian content out of my CV.
16. BDB said the following at 5:10 AM on Aug 4:
A.M.C. #14 wrote:
>>(I can't remember the Bible passage off the top of my head-- isn't there a passage that says that Jesus would deny you if you deny Him?)<<
It's Matthew 10:33 - But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Theologically, the way I take that verse is that if someone asks me directly if I'm a Christian, and I say no, then I've denied Christ. I've known missionaries who've done things like smuggle Bibles into closed countries. They purposed in their heart to not lie. At the same time, putting out a bold sign would get them arrested and/or shot. Or worse, the in-country nationals they met with would be arrested/shot after the Westerners left. As I understand it, Brother Andrew refused to lie, and the result was remarkable instances of getting through customs anyway.
Remember that in the U.S. a business or government organization cannot legally ask you your religious preferences in the interview process. If you want to work in a Christian environment, and you are applying to Christian organizations, it should be a key part of your resume, because they'll be looking for that. I remember how shocked I was when a Christian hospital, in the interview, asked if I'd ever worked in an organization that didn't show the love of Jesus on a daily basis. They're a 501(c)3 that is religious, they can do that! But it shocks people who are used to operating in a secular environment.
Do keep in mind that there are some "Christians" who for some reason don't do business in an ethical way. It's deeply disappointing when I run into this. I do find it interesting that the B.Y.U. MBA program is ranked #1 for business-school ethics...
When I was asked to join the Board of Directors of a nonprofit that worked in Government, I was a little concerned about what they would do when the saw my seminary coursework. As it turns out, a good half of the people are Christians, and some of the others are practicing Jews who are very concerned about the poor. I was surprised to learn that the executives of one of the county government departments working with poor children was the daughter of missionaries.
This is definitely the kind of thing you should pray about - asking God if you should include specific phrases or terms. From a professional point of view, I think it belongs near the end of the resume - the the activities & honors section you can put "Children's Ministry" or something else. For an engineering job, religious faith is not a job determinate, and non-religious organizations aren't legally supposed to discriminate either for or against specific faiths. But there's a long historical tradition. See Democracy in America for a discussion of how church membership was intertwined with commerce in the early 1800's.
17. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:13 AM on Aug 4:
Is there a way to mention Christian elements in an interview without giving the impression that you're proselytizing?
Listing Volunteer work as one of your "extra curriculars".
#1 - Volunteering for the community is actually beginnign to be real popular among large corporations (want some sense of giving back to the community)
#2 - Listing where you've volunteered from (i.e. Chaperoning for youth retreats for your church's youth group) shows your christian foundation without the idea that you are proselytizing.
Actually, there's a lot of places where your christian fruits can shine in a resume without coming off as proselytizing. Are you honest? Are you a good team player (gentleness and kindness)?
References could include your pastor for personal references if your resume requires those, as well.
18. Rachael said the following at 10:01 PM on Aug 4:
A.M.C.,
In case it's an encouragement to you, check out Eph. 6:19-20:
"Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should."
And this prayer request is coming from a guy who has also written in Rom. 1:16: "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
I agree with BDB's suggestion to pray. I also need to pray more about stuff and things.
I was trying to look for a verse I thought might be there about someone told not to worry because God would give him the words to speak, but, I couldn't find it - perhaps it doesn't exist.
I guess I'd encourage you to pray and do your best and not over-worry if a half-truth may have popped out of your mouth. If you feel guilty for not expressing everything that was or may have been in your heart and feel you indirectly denied Christ, remember Peter. He denied Christ 3 times, but that didn't stop him from being used for the kingdom. And remember that in John 21 Jesus asked him 3 times if he loved him, and he told him to follow him and take care of his sheep. So remember that there is forgiveness in Christ, even if you feel guilty or unsure of what you end up saying or not saying.
I'd encourage you to share your heart with God -- tell Him you don't intend to/want to deny Him, ask Him for wisdom and courage, and trust that He will bring you through. Maybe easier said than done, and I assume it's general stuff you know. But sometimes those general things are easier said than put into practice.
19. BDB said the following at 10:53 PM on Aug 4:
Rachael (#18) wrote:
>>I was trying to look for a verse I thought might be there about someone told not to worry because God would give him the words to speak,<<
You're right - it's right after the Luke 12:9 verse about not denying Christ.
Luke 12:11-12
Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.
20. Kelly said the following at 4:08 AM on Aug 5:
Christina suggested: "Listing Volunteer work as one of your "extra curriculars".
Are extra curriculars included on CVs these days? I find that the more experience I get, the harder it is to fit it into a concise format and I wonder if employers actually care what I do in my spare time, or do they just want to see I can do the job?
That said, I haven't actually had a job interview in years. I work in a niche industry and tend to get hired by word-of-mouth (and they want a copy of my CV to keep the paperwork right).
21. Jen said the following at 7:13 AM on Aug 5:
I appreciate your trying to address this problem, but I have to say, the job section wasn't very helpful. We've all heard those general things a thousand times. Why not go into specifics a bit more? For example, you talk about the importance of asking questions. My question is, what kind of questions? I always find this difficult because if I've read and understood the job description, and done my research on their website, etc, I find it difficult to come up with questions to ask at the interview. You need to give more than common sense tips to actually be helpful to those of us who are at this stage in life. Thanks.
22. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:26 AM on Aug 5:
Kelly (#20),
Actually, they do care =p
Like I said, the drive for giving back to the community in large companies actually makes employers more aware of volunteer work.
Especially if its a company that enjoys employees who are willing to work with no pay =p
23. BDB said the following at 11:57 AM on Aug 5:
Jen (#21) asks:
>>My question is, what kind of questions? <<
Paraphrased from Harvey Mackay's book, Sharkproof:
- The questions an interviewer really likes are the ones where they get to recommend a candidate for the job. Their job is to find people who "fit."
- Ask about the company's values: if they are known for being the best quality in the industry, ask them, "How do they maintain that quality day after day?"
- If they're an industry leader, they know it, and are proud of it. Ask, "What does the competition see when they look at you?"
- If they company is in trouble, they're looking for solutions, and people to turn them into winners again. Ask, "Which companies in the industry would you most like to resemble?"
- Listen to the answers - you want to understand them, not just your clever questions.
- Don't ask about the company's embarrassing gaffe, like an environmental fine. If it bothers you that much, why are you applying to work with them?
- Be perceptive about what is in the room - does the interviewer have an award from a civic organization on their wall? Pictures of their kids? Is there something in the room you can relate to?
I once interviewed for a job where the department included an upholstery shop. That's pretty unique, so I asked if it was cost-effective. One of the quiet guys in the group interview immediately perked up and said yes - all the furniture in the room had been re-upholstered. He explained that they had so much furniture in the facilities, it was much cheaper than buying new stuff when it wore out. He'd been there 35 years, and had seen the savings in action.
Here's some more:
- You're going outside to fill this position, do you normally go outside for promotions?
- Have you had any major staffing cutbacks recently? Do you expect any in the near future? [NOTE: I did ask this one once, and they assured me they were done. Their math was wrong, and after I started they laid off half the staff, including me. But at least they apologized for their math being wrong.]
If you're feeling gutsy:
- What are the firm's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to dealing with people?
- You (the interviewer) obviously have become a success here. What does it take to be a success in this company?
- I imagine that you do a pretty good job of keeping good people. When people do leave, however, what's he most common reason?
- Could you give me an idea of what my potental boss is like? Are there particular qualities he or shie is looking for in a candidate?