Am I My Brother's Keeper?
by Heather Koerner on 08/07/2008 at 2:14 PM
In an article titled "Immodest Dress in the Church: Like Frogs in Boiling Water," Jenna Murphy expresses her concern about both the lack of modesty among Christian young women and the apparent apathy about the subject altogether.
"In recent years what with acceptable fashion standards taking a major plunge (literally) into the realm of 'anything goes', young women are left to face conscious decisions in how they dress themselves, not realizing the weight that such decisions carry," Murphy writes.
What weight do our decisions carry? Murphy's answer: power. All women need to begin recognizing, Murphy writes, "the power inherent to the human body and respecting this great gift (through dressing modestly) instead of harvesting its power for selfish reasons."
The power inherent to the human body. A good point, but let's be specific: it's the power inherent in the female body. The female form holds an influence over men that the male form simply does not hold over women.
Most women, of course, know that. But to be honest, we don't necessarily get it. After all, seeing a writhing half-naked man on the hood of a Honda Accord is going to make us less likely, not more, to buy it. I know I've watched many a beer commercial (I'm a sports gal) and thought: Are they serious? Do guys really believe that a less-than-average Joe suddenly gets the buxom blond because he drinks this brand of beer?
Then, it's all too easy to fall into mild contempt. Why in the world, a woman may ask, should I have to guard how I dress just because some man can't keep his mind out of the gutter?
To be sure, it's a Christian man's responsibility to fight lust and "keep his mind out of the gutter." But I wonder if that question isn't the mirror logic of a man who would ask: Why do I need to guard what I say simply because she reads more commitment into my words than I mean?
The fact is that a woman is attracted relationally. It makes no sense for a man to say she shouldn't be that way. She is. God designed her that way. And the fact is that men are attracted (in part, at least) visually. God designed them that way.
Of course, what God intended to be a pathway to bond us to our spouses, can also be an area of vulnerability to sin. Just as a woman can be tempted through her heart, a man can be tempted through his eyes. I remember how in the movie Clueless, the main character, Cher, tries to get a boy's attention by sending herself chocolates and flowers and then she makes an observation: "Sometimes you have to show a little skin. That reminds guys of being naked and then they think of sex."
Of course, I disagree with her statement, but she's absolutely right about the result. And, so, if I'm going to help to keep my Christian brothers from stumbling, I need to be careful how much skin and how much, ahem, form I am revealing.
In other ways, my brother will be my keeper. But in this way, I can be his. I can help him by making sure I'm one less skirmish in the battle against lust.
1. Tami said the following at 2:28 PM on Aug 7:
Ah, but what I love about Cher is... once she had her epiphany about true love ("*I* love Josh!"), she came to realize that all her old tricks didn't work, and that her sweetness, and becoming a more multi-dimensional person, were what formed a more lasting, serious attraction with (in the movie's terms, at least) a more serious, decent guy than she was used to dating.
Anyway, on topic... it's a difficult balance. In my youth, I made the opposite mistake of being frumpy because I was *afraid of* attracting *too much* attention. We need to be mindful, for sure (and I am certainly no advocate of the "I can wear whatever I want, and if he has a problem, it's his problem" school of thought), but not to the point where we women erase our femininity because we're afraid of attracting a guy's attention and inadvertently causing him to stumble.
Now, pardon me while I try to get rid of that image of the half-naked dude on the hood of the Accord... :P
2. Jo said the following at 2:39 PM on Aug 7:
It's interesting that you make the comparison between women dressing modestly and men guarding what they say. It's a fair comparison I think, but to be honest, I think moderation is needed in both camps.
Firstly, I don't think men should have to fall over themselves for fear of giving the wrong impression to women. And the same applies to women and the way they dress. In both cases, we should try to be aware, and we certainly shouldn't knowingly seek to exploit these things in sinful ways (ie a man knowingly leading a woman on, or a woman deliberately wearing provocative outfits). But also in both cases, however careful we are, some people will still find these things a stumbling block, and that is not ultimately our responsibility.
We discussed this recently with regards to some men finding earrings or trousers immodest. The same is true of women who take a man's slightest friendly gesture as an indication of interest.
Ultimately, we will all (women and men) have our own ideas of what is or isn't modest. What is 'too tight'? What length skirt is 'too short'? We're never going to agree on these things, and to an extent it depends on individual people's figures anyway, as well as context.
I'm just not sure we can come to any real consensus about what is or isn't okay, and since we all have to look at all the other people around us, perhaps we should work more on moderating our own reactions than gasping at other people's behaviour.
(Not that Heather was doing that at all - I'm just anticipating the way this conversation might go. :P)
3. KJ said the following at 3:36 PM on Aug 7:
Can I just say that I hate how that passage (the one that's linked) is always thrown into the discussion whenever modesty is involved? It's like it's the trump card - all a guy has to say is "That makes me stumble" and if a girl is being "obedient to God's word" she will never wear that article again. And some guys have some ridiculous hangups, IMO. Read the Rebelution Modesty Survey if you have any doubts about that.
Yes, modesty is important. I'm all for it. I don't want to make it difficult for my BF to keep his mind pure. I don't want other girls to make it difficult for him to keep his mind pure. I don't want to intentionally do that to some other guy. But it can easily be taken to an extreme simply by quoting that passage.
4. Laura_MH said the following at 3:44 PM on Aug 7:
I'm reminded of the brothers who did the modesty survey a year or two ago - they surveyed young men in a variety of categories to see what were "stumbling blocks" for them. Shirts, pants, shoes, makeup....it was extremely comprehensive, as I recall.
I was bothered after reading it, because virtually everything seemed to be a stumbling block somehow, to someone. Several of my coworkers have commented that I dress very conservatively, and when I measure myself against the survey, I am immodest.
There are certain things I will not wear, regardless of how modest I would look:
-Pants with pleats
-Dress shoes with wide heels
-Boxy jackets/shirts/tops that are not tailored to a female waist (in other words, they are sewn straight up and down).
I'm sure I can think of other items.
For me, I do not want to wear clothing that is tight against my skin, is cut too low, etc. But I'm not wearing boxy, untailored grandma clothes either.
Jo, I think you are spot-on with your logic.
5. DannieA said the following at 3:51 PM on Aug 7:
and then there's the other side. I feel as though I dress modestly...but attractive. As a woman I try to act and look feminine.
I get turned on by men in suits/shirt&Tie....obviously you see that everyday in the workplace (depending) or at church so what is the alternative, that's as modest as you get...unless every man I come in contact with is wearing blue jeans or nothing....I have to keep myself in check.
6. Athena said the following at 5:09 PM on Aug 7:
I really like the parallel in the article with the guys' logic on trying to get out of using their words with care. Since standards for modesty do vary a bit for everyone, I think it boils down to the heart - how much do you love God and others. Do you love God enough to love your body enough to clothe it modestly, since it is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Do you love others enough to take some thought into dressing that will both be attractive and considerate of your fellow brothers in Christ? I understand it is tough sometimes, but why not use some brain power and take on the challenge?
However, I do confess having heard a small inner voice saying "wow, I'm the only one wearing a short-sleeved tee plus long jeans during this Christian camping trip!" and being a little conscious that I'm not as "liberated" as the other girls with their tank tops and short shorts. But that is just society's standards =). Besides, dressing immodestly is something akin to a shortcut route to attraction anyway. After it happens, you lose forever your sense of feminine mystery (mystery as in "something to be explored," in the words of John and Staci Eldredge). And maintaining that mystery helps some brothers to make more effort in getting to know your personality instead of being overly distracted by your appearance (I have to thank the Boundless Show for that last point).
7. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Aug 7:
Um...a Honda Accord is the #1 FAMILY car in America...you're right that anything writhing and naked doesn't say "family" in an ad.
8. Tris said the following at 6:52 PM on Aug 7:
The Bible has much to say about the virtue of modest attire. Whether or not women are their "brother's keeper", I would think that the last thing a girl would want is to be ogled by perverts. Dressing modestly also shows that you have respect for your self. (With the exception of Muslims) the amount of clothing a society wears is directly proportional to its level of civility.
It seems many Christian girls are asking the wrong questions. They want to know what they can get away with wearing or what are their limits. They should be asking how they can dress in such a way to please the Lord and their parents and show respect for their own bodies; not how to please the visual "tastes" of perverted men. Modesty is simply a virtue in and of its self. Immodesty is a sign to perverts that one has loose morals. If girls are wondering why they "attract all the wrong types of guys" they may need to examine their wardrobe to find the answer. The whole purpose of immodest attire is to draw sexual attention. The more naive of us just buy the idea that, its okay its just the cultural norm now. I have also found that what many girls consider "modest" might be "modest" to their contemporaries but is truly far from it.
I can say as a guy that I turn my attention away from girls that are attired immodestly and use indecent speach. A Christian girl with modest attire and clean language is far more rare than the most precious of jewels.
1 Timothy 2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety...."
9. JrHighMemories said the following at 9:02 PM on Aug 7:
Tami (#1) I can sympathize: in Jr. High after being convicted about wearing short skirts, I wore the same ankle length black skirt to church every Sunday FOR APPROX. A YEAR!!!
yikes.
10. Lemon said the following at 10:36 PM on Aug 7:
Something of a sidenote to the article:
I don't know if this was the intent, but I've read/heard this kind of sentiment in other Christian circles...the dichotomy of men being visual and women being relational.I would just like to point out that I am a woman and I would probably be much more drawn to an advertisement that had an attractive man, maybe with his shirt open than one that did not. Frankly, I am very tired of feeling like some sort of anomaly because I am extremely attracted to the male form, and in a visual sense. I don't think I'm alone in this...
11. Kathleen said the following at 11:06 PM on Aug 7:
I've always held that guys should keep their eyes and minds in check, and girls should make it a point to not make that overly hard to do. Part of this is cultural (as in showing a woman's ankles used to be entirely scandalous) and some is timeless and universal (certain things are simply meant to be covered at all times).
12. Leah said the following at 11:18 PM on Aug 7:
KJ- that passage is not a trump card. It's supposed to make people think a bit more about what they are doing.
It's like Laura_MH said: some people have some really weird hang-ups. We cannot cater to them all. But if we consider wearing something that could plausibly be a stumbling block to many guys, we need to think twice about wearing it. To wear a deep V-necked shirt would likely distract many guys, common sense would tell us that. So we should probably steer away from it. But to wear a necklace, or high heels, would be unlikely to distract many guys, common sense would tell us that. So it's ok to wear those- it's simply unfortunate for the one or two guys out there who have an issue with high heels or necklaces. If someone said to you "those heels make me stumble", well, maybe you might decide not to wear them around him. But I sure wouldn't make that a mandate for every day, because it isn't likely to make anyone else stumble.
I really think it's a balance/common sense thing.
13. alex said the following at 1:03 AM on Aug 8:
"Something to be explored"? How about something to honor God with???? Good grief. I think one of the reasons men have such a hard time with women's modesty is that they think of women so objectively. I'm not a man (guess it would help if I put my full name up), so I can't really say with authority, of course, but in my experiences that is the other side of the problem (women's immodesty being the other). I mean, I get the up and down wearing a soccer uniform, and honey, those things are HIDEOUS. Im not that good looking either. Men are just obsessed with sex. I've never heard a man complain about immodest dress on a woman (womder why...) but I think that young women should think about this misuse of something that is supposed to be glorifying God and ask themseves who they are really serving. I obviously have a problem with the Eldridges' philosophy, but if I may suggest a book on modesty it would be Dannah Gresh's And the Bride Wore White, and Secret Keeper (also by her). I believe it is spot on, and there are guy counterparts.
14. Kelly said the following at 5:58 AM on Aug 8:
Hmmm... this caused me to think. When I lived in a very hot (Western) country, tank tops were the standard wherever you went. It was a beach culture and yes, people showed up to church in tank tops, shorts, and flip-flops.
But by the standards of other countries where the temperature is more bearable, that's far too disrespectful.
15. Paul said the following at 6:49 AM on Aug 8:
There is much hypocrisy in this topic when it comes to men. Surveys of Christian men find that 50% are addicted to pornography (and this is probably rising). I find it a bit insincere when men who aren't actively fighting lust behind closed doors in their bedrooms come into church and tell you that the cut of your dress makes them stumble.
That isn't to say that modest dress doesn't have its place (particularly in a worship service...where the focus should be on God and not how stunning you look in stilettos and that black dress). I just don't want my sisters in Christ struggling with what to wear each day because it might cause some guy to "stumble". Search your heart before God about your wardrobe and how you present yourselves to men...hopefully the guys are doing the same about how they are viewing the women wearing the clothes.
16. T. said the following at 7:17 AM on Aug 8:
Hm. So am I the only Christian woman that's visually oriented? Not that I am shallowly interested in just looks, but when a man looks like a well-groomed man (masculine, but looking nice), I sometimes find myself tempted through my eyes...
17. Kit said the following at 7:33 AM on Aug 8:
Actually, I think Cher's statement of Sometimes you have to show a little skin. That reminds guys of being naked and then they think of sex." is completely correct. That's WHY you should attempt to dress modestly.
On another note, I think we're kidding ourselves when we say that women don't struggle visually. Read Lauren Winner's "Real Sex: The Naked Truth About Chastity." She discusses this issue, and says that when a man runs by her window in her college town and he's really in shape and looks good, she's tempted too. I couldn't agree more.
So ladies, be modest. But men, keep your shirts on! :-)
18. obewan said the following at 8:31 AM on Aug 8:
BDB #7
>>Um...a Honda Accord is the #1 FAMILY car in America...you're right that anything writhing and naked doesn't say "family" in an ad.<<
That is a sad commentary on Madison Ave. marketing. Don't forget, Dad is the decision maker, so they are always tempted to play to his base instincts.
I work in the aerospace industry, and you should see some of the racy airbrushed 'fantasy' posters our marketing group puts out to push our engine parts! I won't post the brand here for obvious reasons.
19. Rachael said the following at 10:22 AM on Aug 8:
Someone wrote: "But men, keep your shirts on! :-)"
And someone wrote: "I would probably be much more drawn to an advertisement that had an attractive man, maybe with his shirt open than one that did not. "
-->In case some men worry about these comments, please remember that not everyone will stumble by seeing random men without their shirts on. I don't know percentages, but just remember that this issue isn't an issue for every woman.
20. Craig M. said the following at 10:28 AM on Aug 8:
Absolutely no way that I'm compromising on my right to run and play basketball shirtless! That's the best perk of being a man! ;)
21. Tigger said the following at 10:34 AM on Aug 8:
That was an excellent post. Very well written and has a sense of freshness about it.
No, T (#16), you are not the only woman who can find herself visually attracted to men. Both my best friend and I do it without thinking about it, though my attraction is more complex, also based on attitude, presence, and personality, although - unlike my best friend - I do allow some leeway for personality or humor or whatever else he may have to offer. I would hope that any guy I meet treats me as much like this as he can - attracted visually, sure, but ready to "explore" a little bit on who I am. And fwiw...this only-men-are-visual bit is as mystifying as the thing I've heard that women don't have sex drives...I really, really don't know where that person got that conclusion. Sure they do. It's just a more complex beast, and requires more to make it run at full throttle.
When I was younger I was always in baggy t-shirts and baggy jeans. It had less to do with modesty and more to do with being somewhat poor and my mother doing the best she could about modesty without teaching what it really was. It wasn't her fault; she didn't really understand it other than keeping perverts away from her attractive daughter, but still. It took me a long, long time to be comfortable with femininity, and I still have a while to go.
As for going for the cultural angle, well some of them get quite strange. In ancient Minoa, women wore dresses that exposed everything above the waist, as it seems the back was considered inappropriate. For geisha in Japan, it was the back of the neck. (I believe. Anyone feel free to correct me on that one.) And some cultures nowadays in hot places have their women in tank tops and shorts every day and consider it modest enough for practicality's sake, while others, particularly in the Muslim world, prefer to veil that which is beautiful and should be protected - and not expose it to all who may pass by, in a strange sort of reverence for the female form and beauty.
In the end the world is a fallen and broken place. We as women ought to do the best we can with what we have, and help others along the way. There's no harm in any of that.
22. Jo said the following at 11:14 AM on Aug 8:
Craig M (#20):
What, even if you cause your sisters to stumble? *gasp*
I'm joking, but it does raise some questions.
1) Is our attire modest or immodest regardless of whether it causes anyone to lust? And if so, what is this 'objective standard'?
2) Or does our attire become sinful based purely on how much other people sin when they look at us? Judging someone's actions by the reactions of those around them is hardly a Biblical method.
3) Is modesty at all dependent on culture / context / shape?
If I uncover my ankles in a strict Muslim country am I just being disrespectful to that culture, or does my dress actually become immodest in that context?
If a buxom woman will show cleavage with a relatively high neckline, while a woman with a small bust will show nothing even with a low cut top, what sort of neckline is 'modest'?
Is it less modest to wear a skirt with sandals (more skin), or knee high boots (less skin... but rather more enticing)?
Are all bikinis more enticing than all one-piece swimming costumes?
Surely the best we can do is make the most of the bodies we've been given, and aim to look beautiful rather than sexy - in our behaviour as well as our appearance.
23. Esther said the following at 11:37 AM on Aug 8:
I think the modesty thing is especially difficult for really beautiful women. I don't place myself quite in that camp, but I have a sister who looks like a model even in sweatpants. She gets lots of attention, even though she dresses modestly. And when she wants to dress up and feel attractive, every eye is on her (sometimes tough for the 'other' sister!), and she has a hard time with men dealing with her at a surface level only.
Since I brought it up- what about dressing up? When I read stuff like this article, I feel guilty about wearing particular outfits that are especially becoming, even while not being technically immodest (showing skin, too tight). But if the sin is using female attractiveness to gain attention and power, then I'm probably at fault, because I know that I get more looks and compliments when I wear it.
24. Sarah P. said the following at 12:40 PM on Aug 8:
Question: Is it lust to honestly admire the aesthetics of a person? Some people just look nice. I notice this easily, on both males and females. I appreciate it when people present themselves well, in a manner that is harmonious and attractive. I guess I am aware of beauty altogether, and I think men's physical form can be quite beautiful. This doesn't mean that I want to have sex with the muscled man jogging by on the street! I will not stare after him, but neither will I be ashamed for the fact of seeing him.
I think Ravi Zacharias wrote something about saying, "Thank you, God, for creating such a beautiful person!" and leaving it at that. It's not a sin to notice beauty and be attracted to it, only possibly what we do afterwards. What do y'all think?
25. Mike said the following at 3:33 PM on Aug 8:
I think Ravi Zacharias wrote something about saying, "Thank you, God, for creating such a beautiful person!" and leaving it at that.
THANK YOU!!!
Gracious...I thought this was turning into a Puritan meeting for a minute... :-)
Admiration of beauty <> lust. Jesus said "He who looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery", not "He who looks on a woman has already committed adultery." Please, let's not get so hung up on seeking after modesty that we act like the women have to feel guilty for being beautiful!
26. Vanessa said the following at 3:40 PM on Aug 8:
Sarah P., it would be a sin to dwell and fantasize on what you just saw I would think. Admiring God's creation at a glance (without a lustful thought) isn't wrong! =D
THANK YOU, Heather, for addressing this topic! You are spot on. I know I have to continually check my own wardrobe and run things by my dad/brothers. They will usually tell me if something I'm wearing is um, not such a great idea to go out it. I'm grateful for their insight as men.
I'm aware many young women don't have this blessing, but the core principle is not just an outward response to God's command to be modest, but and inward response as well- the adornment of a meek and quiet spirit.
27. Leah said the following at 12:10 AM on Aug 11:
Kelly- did you live in Australia? :P
Craig M- since when did you have a "right" to run and play basketball shirtless? Who gave you that right?
Sarah P- read Mike's comment (#25)
Esther- I don't think there's anything wrong with using your looks to gain attention. That's what good looks are for, isn't it? But using our looks to make men think of what's BENEATH the clothes is when it goes too far...
28. Kelly said the following at 4:43 AM on Aug 11:
Kit said:
" I think we're kidding ourselves when we say that women don't struggle visually. "
I think SOME women struggle visually, but the proportion is much less than men. I honestly don't struggle visually. I may have a fleeting appreciation for an athletic figure but it's not sexual. I am attracted to brains. (Which means I am very rarely attracted to anyone until I get to know him.)
I'm honestly not kidding myself here; I think my brain is just wired much less visually than others.
It would be interesting if Boundless could run a poll on this kind of thing - I'd love to know if I'm the minority or majority.
29. Rose said the following at 11:36 AM on Aug 11:
I find modesty a strange virtue, it being so culturally determined and yet viewed as so important by many Christians.
Sometimes I think the emphasis on modesty reinforces women being seen as objects.
A women who decides to wear something so that she doesn't tempt men and a women who decides to wear something so that men thinks she looks good are both dressing to please men.
I think it would be far better to encourage girls to wear comfortable clothes and teach them that their moral worth is in their personality not their appearance.
If someone is described as a modest man we mean someone humble and unassuming who doesn't think too highly of themselves.
A modest woman is someone who's appearance is modest. A woman could dress modestly and be immoral in every other way or dress immodestly and be a good person. Doesn't modesty encourage people to make judgemental assumptions about women from their appearence?
Personally the way I dress would probably be considered modest. But I don't kid myself I'm being virtuous. In skimpy clothes I'd feel self-conscious and think I had to fuss more about my appearance. I'm just lazy and also like to dress practically.
30. Leah said the following at 6:05 PM on Aug 11:
Rose- dressing to please men does not automatically = being an object. If you dress modestly to keep men from stumbling (what you call "dressing to please men", which I concede may often be true), your result will be enabling him to pay you more attention as a person with brains than just an attractive figure. And that is NOT reinforcing women being seen as objects.
31. Leah said the following at 6:13 PM on Aug 11:
Rose also said "If someone is described as a modest man we mean someone humble and unassuming who doesn't think too highly of themselves.
A modest woman is someone who's appearance is modest."
Um, no. If someone said to me "she's a very modest girl", I'd think humble and eager to keep attention from herself. It's only if they said "she dresses very modestly" that I'd think of her appearance. Besides, why do you think that form of dressing is called "modest"? It means the same thing. Humility. Dressing immodestly means you are taking pride in your figure, which is not innately wrong, but doing it at the risk of causing men to stumble is. That's putting your pride above your brothers, not a loving thing to do at all.
You also said "Doesn't modesty encourage people to make judgemental assumptions about women from their appearence?"
Again... no. The way a person dresses does cause me to make assumptions about them, but that's modesty aside. And I don't see it being "judgmental". Clothing is designed to put forward a particular image so that other people can guess (assume) something about you. If someone's wearing all black, heavy makeup, etc etc, I'll assume they're a goth. If they're wearing a sports uniform, I'll assume they're an athlete. If they're wearing camo, I'll assume they're a soldier. If they're wearing revealing clothes, I'll assume they're looking for guys' attention. If they're wearing modest clothes, I probably wouldn't think twice (because it's not attention-grabbing), but if I did make an assumption, it'd be that they're sensible.
32. Kelly said the following at 4:29 AM on Aug 12:
Leah - Brisvegas, and oh, I miss the sunshine! What about you?
33. Zusanne said the following at 3:07 PM on Aug 13:
I've lived in several different parts of the country, and culture plays a huge part in what is and is not considered modest.
What is considered "modest" to people where I live in South Florida wouldn't aways be considered so by most other places with warmer climates. Part of the problem is that, since it's never really cold here (well, once or twice a year we might have a few hours when it's below 60 degrees), nobody really needs to start covering up in the fall in layers reverse the process in the spring; I remember, growing up in a different climate, how strange short-sleeved shirts felt after spending months in jackets and sweaters.
Seriously, though, people need to use common sense. There are certain parts of the body that shouldn't be shown, no matter where we live. Mirrors are helpful tools. There are times and places for different types of clothing.
We can split hairs (one piece or two? pants or skirts? knees or ankles?) with our friends, family and church family, but trying to make broad-brush rules for different people in different circumstances only causes division instead of unity.
34. Leah said the following at 11:06 PM on Aug 13:
Kelly- Townsville, the capital of North Queensland! Ever come up this way?