Half-Naked Olympians
by Motte Brown on 08/12/2008 at 2:57 PM
I don't mean to be a downer but I just couldn't watch the half-naked women playing volleyball last night. I'm not torn up about it or anything. I really don't expect modest sportswear in the Olympics. The skimpiness was just a little too much, that's all. So we had to skip our nightly Olympics viewing as a family because it didn't end before our kids' bedtime.
Funny thing about kids though. They notice stuff like that without provocation. Before we turned off the TV, they made comments about them "wearing underwear" and such. It proved to be a teaching moment.
We mused for a little about why they might need to wear really, really small and really, really tight tops and bottoms. You know, for uninhibited movement for a sport that requires quickness. (Not that that necessarily would make it OK.) But then we saw the men's volleyball team with their much bigger and loose fitting tops and bottoms. So that was out.
We'll address it further in this Friday's podcast but here's a chance to get a head-start on the discussion if you're interested. Are some sports fashions really all about maximizing athletic ability? I just think they're often about style and higher ratings, particularly in the case of women's volleyball.
What do you guys think? Or am I the only one that's a little uncomfortable with all the "underwear"?
101. Mike said the following at 11:12 PM on Aug 15:
I think we're getting a bit overboard here. The ladies are going to get the idea that men are nothing more than hormone-driven sex fiends who can't look at anything with two "X" chromosomes without imagining engaging in carnal activities.
Admiration of a woman's beauty doesn't necessarily mean dropping into lust. You can smile at a pretty girl and say, "Gosh, that's a pretty girl" without undressing her with your eyes or mind. There is such a thing as romantic attraction that doesn't include, "I want her". Yes, the sex drive is strong for us males, but let's try to keep some perspective. You're scaring the women.
Gracious.
102. Micahel said the following at 11:53 PM on Aug 15:
As a beach volleyball player myself, I just want to say that what they are wearing is standard attire for beach volleyball players. Here in southern California bathing suits like that are not considered immodest. They're even fully covering their upper bodies, which is considered very modest. That's just how life is here. I lived in Dallas for several years and it was a shock when I came back to see so girls scantily clad on the beach.
Secondly, even if that weren't the standard uniform, if they are not Christians you cannot hold them to the standard of Christians. There's no possible way you can expect the Olympics or a sport to conform to the ideals of a particular religion.
Parents need to be parents in this area and when their children grow up they may agree they can make their own choices. It may have bothered you but you have control over your television.
If it were a conservative Christian network broadcasting, then maybe I would be able to understand this complaint. Otherwise, honestly, it's quite a nit-picky thing to post about.
103. dana111 said the following at 7:18 AM on Aug 16:
I am so glad that my television is equipped with an easy "off" button. Magically, this allows me to turn off any television show that offends me. Watching the Olympics is a choice. You don't have to watch them if you don't want to. Flee youthful lust, right? Flee... as in turn away and go the opposite direction? Yeah, that's what I do when a random episode of Sex in the City comes on. I... turn... the... channel. That is why I haven't watched Michael Phelps this year... how is that for temptation, ladies????
104. Tigger said the following at 7:34 AM on Aug 16:
Farmer Tom,
That was an interesting post - it really was - but I have to say, I teach language for a living and I'm not sure what the problem is with Sarah P.'s (#96) post. She was using language not in a literal context, which you seem to think it is, but as a metaphor, which is figurative. I know you post on Boundless often, as I've seen many of your posts, so you know that there has been much discussion about women reading too much into men's intentions for a relationship. Sarah P (I think, so please correct me, Sarah, if I'm wrong) that Sarah is questioning the poster who remarked that every time a woman offers sex he will take it no matter what. It's too extreme - that's the point. I'm sure she and everyone else knows that love and lust are two different things.
May I respectfully and lovingly suggest, Farmer Tom, that perhaps you tone down the condescension and dismissive-ness in the tone of your posts? It doesn't always help others react carefully or positively to what you wish to convey. In fact, it may have the opposite effect of what you hope others will consider from you and your point of view.
That being said, despite some of the derisive tones, I have, and I'm sure others have, taken away interesting points and topics to think about. In fact, there are times I agree with you. I'm simply stating that being aggressive and divisive doesn't usually help anyone.
105. Michael said the following at 6:42 PM on Aug 16:
The cultural arguments are predictable but weak. Has no one ever considered that maybe the traditional (old-fashioned) desire to be modesty clothed in our culture is derived from our biblical worldview? That the lack of clothing present in the cultures of other nations is because of the lack of a long-standing Christian worldview? Or how about the fact that one of the first things God did for Adam and Eve after they fell, was make them some clothing to replace their fig-leaf garments? It is clear throughout the Bible that modesty is important, and that modesty means wearing gender-appropriate clothing (Deut 22:5, etc.). Most likely when the rules about modesty were given to the Israelites, their views on modesty were culturally not much different than the Egyptians. So prevailing culture is not the standard. God's wisdom is the standard.
106. ChazinCH said the following at 11:58 AM on Aug 17:
There seems to be a slight error here about the Greeks.Spartan women also competed in a form of games.This was done in the nude.In the poem Heroides Helen of Troy was mentioned as a wrestler .Another point I would like to make is basketball uniforms.I am sure everyone has seen the movie hoosiers by now.The uniforms worn 50 years ago or even 30 are smaller and tighter than today.
107. Sarah P. said the following at 8:05 AM on Aug 18:
I think Tigger (#104) pretty much got what I was trying to say (#96). I was concerned with the extreme nature of your remarks, John, and I have to say that your further comments did not lessen my concerns any. I fully believe that an uncontrolled male mind may operate exactly as you describe. What I and the other ladies are challenging is that you have to leave yourself in that uncontrolled state. God does not intend for you to sin constantly just by living in a world that includes women.
I didn't "speak" lightly when I wrote of women's corresponding need for emotional control. I didn't realize until only a few years ago just how unChristian and unrealistic my view of men was. I thought I could "read" y'all, but, by so supposing, I was not respecting men nearly as well as I should as precious beings made in God's image. Now I am learning to listen instead, and I find myself not nearly so awkward and defensive toward my brothers.
Farmer Tom (#97): I meant exactly what I said. A woman who fantasizes in this way does not imagine that the man is lusting after her. She imagines that he loves her. Which may be unrealistic and naive, but that is how we become vulnerable. Most of the young girls running around half-naked are simply clueless that their hearts are seeking for love and ignorant that they are using their bodies to summon a poor substitute for that love.
Anyway - John, in no way was I advocating for women to wander around naked and then to blame men for becoming lustful. I was suggesting that you can learn various techniques to ward against temptation. The same way I can catch myself and do a mental "bounce" to a Bible verse or prayer, so men can learn to "bounce" their eyes elsewhere. The more you give in to temptation, the stronger it gets. The more you fight it, the weaker it becomes.
108. Esther said the following at 8:06 AM on Aug 18:
While I never made it to the Olympics, I fenced in Division 1 in college. Thus, it was thrilling for me when the US took the medals for sabre (though my weapon, foil, is dominated by Europe). We fencers often complained about the lack of media coverage of the fencing matches in the Olympics. One argument was that it was because we weren't getting medals, but that's no longer an excuse! The other theory was because there wasn't 'enough skin' to appeal to TV audiences. (A minority theory was that it isn't interesting to watch, but really, what's not cool about sword fighting?) For all of the posters here arguing for modesty- fencing is your ultimate sport! No skin showing except for one hand, everyone wears the same thing in the same color, so there's no showing off fancy outfits, and you even wear masks so you can't even tell who you're looking at except for the name printed on the uniform. And because it's all for protection, there isn't much risk of someone pushing the envelope to make it more 'sexy'.
OK, so most of that was tongue-in-cheek, though my teammates did try to brainstorm ways to make our sport more media-friendly. Probably the real problem is that it is an ancient (it has been in every modern olympics), somewhat confusing sport with a lot of technical rules (but wait, what about gymnastics? I've never understood the scoring!)
So tell me, did anyone enjoy watching the few minutes of fencing that aired?
109. Jo said the following at 9:57 AM on Aug 18:
John, I have to wonder if hold yourself to the same standards that you demand women must. YES scripture tells us not to cause anyone to stumble, and it is good and right to consider how our conduct may affect others. Unfortunately it is impossible to always accurately predict these things because people are different, and what may be not a problem for one may be a huge struggle for another.
The fact is that we all will stumble, whether we like it or not, and smetimes it will be as a direct or indirect result of someone else's perfectly acceptable conduct. If a beautiful woman is dressed modestly and you still choose to lust after her, whose fault is it? Will you accuse her of causing you to stumble? Scripture is meant to free us, not to paralyse us out of fear that some small thing we do might act as a catalyst for someone else's sin. Ultimately, I'm not called to restrict my behaviour and attire to such an extent that they encompass the needs of all the believers I may meet. I am not called to protect your soul at all costs. I am called to follow God, part of which involves reasonable sensitivity to others.
It's true that some attire is immodest, and more sexually alluring. It's true also that this is a difficult area for many men. It's true that women should be very aware of how their clothing choices may affect the men around them, and should aim always to dress modestly. But it's a two way street. Unfortunately, "She tempted me" isn't a good enough excuse for sinning. It wasn't for Adam, and it isn't for you.
110. Adam said the following at 10:03 AM on Aug 18:
If anyone wants a mainstream view on the topic, check out this ABCnews article.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/China/story?id=5589206&page=1
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In some ways, I find this topic to be a bit absurd. I want to scream "it's all cultural!" You can go to Afghanistan and see many women who will not go out in public with their FACES showing because of what is considered modest in their culture. You can go to Europe where women going topless on a beach is considered normal and not immodest.
From everything that I've read, and from viewing women's volleyball; it seems that the Olympic uniforms are pretty modest in the context of the sport - even in America. It seems that most people who have spent any real time in a gym, on a beach, or at a waterpark in America would agree that the uniforms are more than adequate considering the context.
John, while I will say that I agree that men are visual - I will also say that lust is a choice. I would also say as a man that I'm not "clueless" about the male mind. I see NOTHING in the Scriptures that give us any excuse for sinning because someone acts in a way that exploits our weakness. It is our responsibility to guard our eyes to "not look lustfully upon a woman. (Job 31:1)
Can women help by being modest? Absolutely, and most do. Typically it seems that a vast majority of Christian women wear clothes that are modest by the cultural standards.
But who decides what is modest? The Bible doesn't give many guidelines there. You say:
"Should women be wearing this attire to begin with?
And, should women be playing a sport wearing this attire?
From a Christian stand point, the answer is no."
I would welcome you to describe what Biblical clothing is for women - sports or otherwise. If clothing and modesty are not culturally based, it should be a pretty easy thing to do.
I do want to thank you for shedding light on the fact that American culture should not be the end all for questions of modesty. Somehow I feel that the answer is not to dress like those in the FLDS sect, or like those in Islamic countries, or like those on some European beaches.
111. Jo said the following at 10:14 AM on Aug 18:
Adam: very well said.
112. Elmo said the following at 10:40 AM on Aug 18:
P.S. (specifically from the Dude)
I am going to remind you of the portion of scripture that says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” As men, we need to take responsibility for our actions. It seems a trait of man to blame other....... Adam blamed Eve for his accepting the forbidden fruit. Are you sure that your name is not Adam??? You wrote “Your reasoning about ‘just focus on God not others’ is unrealistic. We do not live in isolation.” Just a little thought, God is never unrealistic. Peter when taking his focus off of God sunk in the waters. What are you sinking in? I am concern for you sir. When you compare alcoholism to the way a man views a woman I take issue. I have struggle with the improper use of alcohol. It is a family demon. Alcoholism and a man’s sexuality are not comparable. One is an addiction. The other is a God given gift. Just as a woman’s sexuality is a God given gift. Neither should be belittled by a person saying I cannot control it. Western athletes for years have denied themselves for glory in there sport. Boxers, footballers, and etc… in the past where not allowed to have any form of sex during training as it was said to sap their leg strength. If these men can have victory over this issue without the help of a loving Friend, how much more should a christian man have victory?
You said “Christian men are simply functioning as men.” Nice of you to try to remove God from the equation. We are men, but to say that we simply function as men is to turn all men into Neanderthals. We are not simply anything except beautifully and wonderfully made. You also said, “Women's bodies are meant to be appealing to us, but our wife's body, not someone else’s.” Once again, we are beautifully and wonderfully made. There is nothing wrong with appreciating God’s beautiful creation. Men are visual. But taking it a step further is either stalker creepy, lusting, or giving in easily to the flesh. Be strong. Exercise your gift of free will. Choose that which is proper, wholesome, and godly. You are assuming that all men surrender their free will to struggles. Be a man. (“Fight, for your right, to party.” Sorry for the Beasty Boys quote.) But seriously though, as we say in Texas, cowboy up dude.
All of life is about motives and so is the idea of morality and modesty. It is not about how you dress, but your intent. I have seen women on the beach in a two piece dressed much more modestly then a church pro. Modesty is a state of mind. It is more about what drives your actions. It affects how a person acts.
You said,” Sadly, that's the mindset of too many Christian women when it comes to dress. That being part of a larger mindset that you express, which is unbiblical, that ‘I'm an individual and what I do is between me and God.’
Totally not true.” You are correct about one thing. Totally not true. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Is that not scripture? Micah 6:8 “What is it that the Lord requires of you? To act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” That verse says requires of YOU, not your community or the girl next door, or for that matter the chic sitting a row in front of you. Sadly, the problem with many of christians today is they think they are called to control the world around them. They think it is there mission to make everyone into a little them. NO. The Holy Spirit convicts and speaks to man, not the annoying little man with a plank in his eye. And we all have a plank in our eye…….. we are human.
Ok, Breath, I need to go and prepare for work with a bunch of cute sinner girls who seem to hold men to a higher standard than you, and many christian girls.
113. chaparral said the following at 11:45 AM on Aug 18:
Many thanks to both Elmo and Adam...so reasonable!
114. Motte said the following at 12:30 PM on Aug 18:
In a way, modesty is "cultural," as many have suggested in their comments. And my post was simply a lament (and recognition) that we have reached a point in our "culture" when modesty is no longer a consideration when thinking of the television audience, particularly something that could be enjoyed by the entire family like the Olympics.
I can't speak for all guys. And maybe I'm part of the minority who lack "self-control." But seeing a very fit young woman in very skimpy, tight clothes certainly presents at least an opportunity to gaze at certain body parts in a lustful way. So it's something I want to avoid. You know, like when Scripture says to flee sexual immorality.
But it was more than that. There is a measure of impropriety that even children can pick up on. And I was embarrassed that it took me a minute to decide whether or not we would watch before I turned it off, just long enough for my kids to inquire about the immodest outfits.
So my post was more about the "culture" than the U.S. women's beach vollyball team. As I wrote, "I'm not torn up about it or anything. I really don't expect modest sportswear in the Olympics. The skimpiness was just a little too much, that's all."
It seems that skimpiness isn't an issue for a lot of guys on this board. But I'm not so sure it's about self-control. Maybe it's about being desensitized. And that's something I never want to be when it comes to the female body.
115. Sarah P. said the following at 1:23 PM on Aug 18:
Motte, thank you for your post. I for one appreciated it. I'm so sorry that all you guys have to face these struggles on a daily basis. I really appreciate "Elmo" also, for calling guys to the battle with such good humor. :D And no, I don't believe that "self-control" alone is very helpful in this kind of thing. I speak so confidently at this moment because I am awake, alert, and strong. Catch me when I'm weak, and the story may be different.
No, grace is the answer, as it is for everything. Christ steps in, beyond our power, and lends us victory.
All of which to say, I am glad you turned off the scantily-clad women, and yes it is a shame, and yes it could be a lot worse, and no they can't play volleyball in burquas. They would trip on their robes.
116. Adam said the following at 4:20 PM on Aug 18:
Motte,
I want to thank you for your willingness to bring up the topic for discussion.
I also must praise your child-rearing skills in that your kids were able to notice that something was amiss.
The question must be asked though; how did your children come to the conclusion that there was impropriety? I would dare to suggest it is because you have taught them your values.
When I have been around very young kids, there seems to be quite the lack of "propriety." As a matter of fact, many would be thrilled to run around and play in nothing at all if they were allowed to. This "propriety" seems to be something that is taught.
I would suggest that if your children were raised on the beaches of California, they wouldn't have thought twice about the outfits.
You do have a good point about desensitization. I don't think any guy wants to be fully desensitized to the female body. Every guy has to be to some extent though in order to function in society. I would love to live in Colorado Springs with an average of 68.4 degrees during the summer months.
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/pub/?n=/climate/csumtemp.php
However, I live in an area of the country where triple-digit temperatures are not exactly a rarity. So people wear a little less, and guys are not as shocked or tempted by "very skimpy tight clothes."
I'm sure in the Arctic gals wear more than they do in Colorado. I suppose we could become more sensitized by moving there.
There is one part of your post that really bugged me though. You said, "And my post was simply a lament (and recognition) that we have reached a point in our `culture' when modesty is no longer a consideration when thinking of the television audience"
There are a few things we must consider:
#1: Modesty is still a consideration. The uniforms are modest for the sport.
#2: If a country has a religious issue with the modesty - the Olympic committee has allowed changes!
#3: There are other sports in the Olympics that have skimpier uniforms
a.k.a. men's diving.
#4: The Olympics are a multi-billion dollar business for NBC. If in their consideration they figured that women's volleyball would be problematic for families - and thus the bottom line - they would not show it. It's all about the $$$ for them.
Once again, I want to commend you for following Biblical principles and doing what is right for your family - though I can't agree with your assessment of the uniforms and of the modesty of the culture at large.
117. Janette said the following at 4:30 PM on Aug 18:
This is a very controversial topic, as is clear from the above comments. Since I seen practically nothing of this year's Olympics, unfortunately, I cannot intelligently offer anything. And I normally don't catch women's volleyball. However, what I am familiar with in the summer Olympics is women's gymnastics. My question is this: while I do understand that high leg holes are necessary to give the girls full freedom of movement, do they really need to be so extreme??
As for the winter Olympics, the ice dancing costumes are very skimpy! It's a little better for figure skating. These women just seem to show more and more. Of course, it's the same for any TV dance show (such as Dancing With the Stars). And, while I love dancing, some dancing is already very sensual and provocative. In my opinion, the costumes just makes it worse.
118. Ryan Steadley said the following at 4:51 PM on Aug 18:
Good grief, it's BEACH volleyball. Bikinis are part of the game. Would the author have complained as much if the men had worn only shorts and no tops?
119. BDB said the following at 5:51 PM on Aug 18:
Esther (#108) wrote:
>>(but wait, what about gymnastics? I've never understood the scoring!)<<
Well, my sister was a club gymnast for a while. So, first, it's whether you fall down. Then whether you "stick" the landing, which is designed to cause stress fractures (I swear I'm not making this up.) Then it's how hard your routine is. And, since everyone gets most of that right, the judges pick their favorites and collude. At least that's how it was explained to me...
You're right, sword fighting is cool. I'm sure the ratings would be higher if, like boxing, it was to first blood instead of just points.
And I did work with a guy whose kid got a college scholarship for fencing. We could't convince him to take the Harvard one, he wanted to go to UCSD. Perhaps to watch beach volleyball...
120. Erin said the following at 6:30 PM on Aug 18:
I enjoyed seeing other's viewpoints on this discussion, and many of these comments have caused me to seriously consider my position.
As a pastor's daughter in a fairly conservative church, I have grown up with modesty being a very important, daily issue. I never intend or desire to "advertise what's not for sale".
As a teenage girl who struggles with self-image, I understand the fight to be "in the world and not of the world". I do not own a bikini, and nor do I feel comfortable in one.
As a volleyball player, I understand the issue of wearing tighter clothes to play in. Looser clothes often do inhibit movement, although it does not make it completely impossible.
As an athletic, outdoors sort of person, I can say off the bat that wearing spandex and tucked in jerseys for beach volleyball (similar to indoor volleyball uniforms) would get sand permanently in places unmentionable.
Less fabric means less places for sand to get caught.
I do not say that scantily clad volleyball players is acceptable, although I must protest the seemingly unfair discussion that brings up women in bikinis more than men in speedos. I have always been informed that men tend to be much more visually stimulated than women, making such issues more important. This provides more pressure on Christian women to be more conscious of their modesty, although I believe it must be balanced by a healthy effort of Christian men to guard their hearts and eyes.
In an effort to reach out to those in the world, however, I say why condemn these particular women for trying to be the world's best in their sport? No mention is made of swimming, where suits are skin-tight to shave mere hundredths of a second to the swimmers' times. It is our responsibility to reach out in love and understanding to these people, somehow balancing God's requirements of us with his love to everyone. With understanding, let us use caution and wisdom when deciding what our families watch, but instead of reacting with outrage, take advantage of this teaching opportunity. Parents, talk to your daughters about their self-image and modesty, talk to your sons about respecting a woman's body!
It seems rather inconsequential to me whether or not NBC shows beach volleyball because it is popular or because of its sex appeal. I very much enjoy watching the sport, and would hope that it isn't taken off the air because of women in swimsuits, which you see any day at a beach, pool, swim party or front yard (sunbathers at their worst!). This seems to be an issue one would take up with their family or at your own personal convictions, much like anything else televised, rather than one to be decided en masse.
121. Megan said the following at 6:47 PM on Aug 18:
I grew up a competitive swimmer. Because of that I have no problem wearing competitive one piece suit. It’s what I have worn for 3-5 hours everyday since I was 3. Now I know of a lot of people who were shocked to find out what I wore in the pool because of the high cut on the legs. They would show me places I could buy modest swim wear which consisted of long johns with a jumper on top all made in a wet suit material. It is only when I am swimming laps that I am comfortable wearing my suits. Out of the water I am very modest and conscientious in what I wear for the sake of my brothers. I understand that I am desensitized to wearing that type of bathing suit, and know others are not. That’s fine; I just know to be careful that I bring some shorts along when I go to places to swim. For me I have not been convicted to no longer wear my suit at the pool but am willing to give up my liberties if there will be people there that would be affected by it, so that it is not an issue. I believe it to be that the beach volleyball girls are used to wearing their bikinis that they do not notice it anymore. For me it made me mad to see what the girls were wearing just because they were women. Having them wear the bikinis derogates women and their bodies as a sexual object for the sake of popularity and to catch the men’s eyes. As we were watching the girls play the other night I heard my dad make a comment about the guts on the girls on the other team. The girls were not fat at all. They were very strong looking; it was just that they did not have the perfect bikini body. If the ladies had to wear the skimpy outfits the guys should have to wear speedos.
122. Ginny said the following at 7:38 PM on Aug 18:
I am glad someone thought this was a tad ridiculous....the guys are fully clothed in volleyball and the girls are wearing the least amount of clothing possible. Same for some of the female runners in the marathon....unbelievable...looked like they were running in their underwear....actually, embarrassing that this is acceptable and actually taking place.
123. Joshua said the following at 8:56 PM on Aug 18:
I have read allot of the posts and frankly I don't see the big deal. Most of what a culture thinks is modest or not is just that, based on culture. Have any of you ever watched the national geographic channel and seen women walking around the towns with their breasts exposed? Or nursing a child in public. If that were done here in America people would have a problem, just as if in those parts of africa if a woman had her genitals exposed it would be an issue of modesty there. It all relates to cultural norms. That being said who are we as one culture to say how every culture should dress for any particular event in the "International" Olympics? I do agree that women (and men) need to dress as "modestly" as God lays on their heart but really try to look at how your individual views of modesty are decided by looking at your culture and trying to be better than the perceived "immodest" examples or norm out there. Then go back to what the Bible says about modesty and look at it again without your cultural view. If you really look critically at how culture shapes your views of modesty and other subjects your assumption of what God is talking about in scripture is probably going to be different. (P.S. seeing a beautiful woman and being attracted to her is not a sin, however what you do with a thought can them become the sin. Jesus himself had thoughts of sin (the devils temptation) but yet didn't sin, it was how he chose to deal with those thoughts. :)
124. Don said the following at 7:06 AM on Aug 19:
While I hav not read every response on here, I will do my best to address the ones that got my attention and hopefully everyone else's.
What it simply comes down to for men & women both is choice. I can understand the need for pro athletes to wear outfits that suit their needs. My one big question for everyone though is this; 1. If a women in a volleyball outfit gets your attention then why are you watching? 2. For the women on here who have judged men's comments on this topic, I have seen more than one woman in church wear skirts or tops, that as Christian women they definitely should not be wearing in consideration of their Christian brothers if for no other reason.
The big question I have for everyone on here though is this, What would Jesus say? If he is the only one who knows the whole truth, then we should seek his counsel and go by what he says. The reality is that the Olympics is something that is not even a neccessity. I have been saved for just shy of seven years and I have found as the Apostle Paul said that as time goes on for me, the things of this world pail more and more. If there are things on TV even the Olympics that bother you, then use that time to seek Him. The things that our Father (abba) which in Arabic means Papa or Daddy want to bless us with, are far better than anything this world could ever give us.
Maybe these things bother you for a reason. Maybe that reason is that we are His kids. He wants our time and our attention. The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our souls.
If the things you have been watching bother you turn it off and go spend time with Him.
The sad truth is that there are many who call themselves Christians who will go to hell, because Jesus will look at them and say, "Away from me I never knew you." It's not about what the world thinks is important (Olympics), it's not about what we think is important, unless the thing we value most is our relationship with our Heavenly Father. It is about Jesus period! He bought and paid for our lives with his blood. He owns us, yet gives the freedom to choose. If the most important thing to talk about is what is or isn't wrong with the Olympics, then maybe you should refocus your attention and keep your eyes on Him.
I was never impressed with the things of this world before I was saved. I'm even less impressed now. I haven't watched the Olympics at all and don't intend to. Phelps as I understand has won 8 gold medals. Big deal! Can he walk on water? Can he save me from eternal damnation? Can he cause spiritual changes on the inside of me to take place so that I become more like Him? Come on brothers and sisters, what is really important here?
125. Debbie said the following at 4:45 PM on Aug 19:
Every man out there will think I'm a prude....but........I also don't like sitting in my livingroom watching beach volleyball with my husband. All those bottoms up their butts.. and did you check out the men's uniform for the same sport. LOL
Anyway.. I think the women should protect the uniform..considering it's just MEN'S way of turning the sport into nothing more than T&A... Men have no respect for these women as athletes... And that stinks...
126. Al said the following at 7:29 PM on Aug 19:
I do think that men are called to be responsible in fleeing temptation-- Jesus makes this abundantly clear when He recommends that we pluck out our own eye if it'd actually help. At the same time, we (men *and* women) also bear a reasonable responsibility to each other, doing our best to prevent a brother or sister from stumbling, which might even involve relinquishing our "rights".
While the popular sentiment that "it's just between us and God" bears some truth-- we are ultimately accountable to God-- it's plain in Paul's writings that our accountability to God *makes* us accountable to each other. Life with God in the Scriptures is almost always lived out in community, and as Christ's body, we are called to sacrifice in love when necessary for each others' sakes.
It's true that accusations of being a stumbling block are sometimes thrown around and used as a tool to control others-- and I fully agree that both men and women must master themselves as best as they can rather than merely faulting those that might tempt them-- but at the same time, Scripture is extremely clear that Christians bear responsiblity to each other, even if what they are doing or wearing might be morally neutral or permissible to them.
As a guy who's pretty visual, I can tell you that having an attractive female whose outfit calls attention to her figure enter my view is a little bit like having a mild dose of heroin unexpectedly injected into my arm-- or at least what I'd imagine that'd be like. It's my responsibility to avert my gaze if needed, practice self-control, and learn to see her as a sister and not just an object of gratification. At the same time, I don't believe we can absolve ourselves of responsibility to our "weaker" brothers simply by assuming they haven't claimed spiritual victory. It's for this reason that our praise and worship team has a dress code, meant to enable them to better love God by thoughtfully loving the congregation and not calling attention to themselves, and I do believe it to be much more scriptural than the idea of heeding only God while being ambivalent to how we affect our brothers and sisters. I suspect that western culture's tendency to individualize and personalize faith to an extreme, sometimes at the cost of the community that Scripture almost always speaks to, might be responsible for this line of thinking which I don't see strong biblical support for.
Of course we can't expect non-Christian men and women to share this understanding and adjust their dress for our benefit. And all this works only if both parties dare to relinquish power and control and dare to risk love and humility-- but I get the feeling that risking love and living out humility in this awkward, funky arraignment is exactly what God intended.
127. Carrie said the following at 8:09 PM on Aug 19:
If this was a post about the attire of Christian women at church, church related activities or just in general I would agree with many of the sentiments here. As it is, it is about women in the Olympics on TV and their attire in a sport that calls or smaller articles of clothing – I think everyone knows that. Personally I did not notice what the women were wearing I admired their athleticism and cheered when they made a point. Frankly I live in a major city and see women at the gym in similar attire or on the street with more of the private areas showing than those girls – the players at least have everything “important” covered up completely, there is no cleavage etc.
I find that Christians in this country want to adjust the world to fit their lives and standards, we are called to be apart from the world to act differently.
So yes Motte and the other parents do what God has called you to – BE A PARENT. That’s right – my parents decided before we were born what they did not want us exposed to a lot of it could be controlled as we were in a small foreign country but things come to you through books, magazines, tv, music etc so they did not want us to see things like violence, sex, kissing etc so we did not have a TV. Yes I grew up and lived at home for the first 22 years of my life and did not have a TV and no we were not allowed to go to other people’s houses to watch TV either. We were also not allowed to visit our friends at home if they had same age or older brothers as my parents did not want us alone or in situations where we would be close to or alone with men/boys either. My parents even monitored what we checked out from the library and read. So that’s what parents need to do make a decision and stick to it, no need to change the world to make it holy so you can do everything you want. Some things you have to deny yourself if it is a stumbling block for you. I would love to eat chocolate everyday but then were would my hips me :-)
For the Christian men on this site who have fallen or are tempted to fall based on the attire of an athlete on TV that is troubling and I would suggest you find a mentor perhaps an older man preferably married in the church to mentor you. Someone you can be accountable to and who will come along side you and get you through these urges. Also perhaps you should stop delaying marriage and go find yourself a wife. Maybe this should be a topic Candace should be addressing – single Christian men with active sexual needs and urges roiling and boiling so close to the surface who are putting off marriage for one ridiculous reason after another. Then perhaps we the Christian women who are single but not by choice might be able to get married while we are still capable of having children – a win win for everyone.
It is ungodly to say that to be affected in such a way by an athlete on TV is just the way men are. As Christian men you are called to be different from the rest of the men of the world. It is not as though the girls in the choir or your small group were prancing around half dressed at church or your living room. You have a mind and mind that hopefully spends so much time reading and meditating on Gods word that it is strong enough to withstand a volleyball game. And if not I hope and pray you get there soon as like I said in the first paragraph average women on the street, workplace etc will be constantly showing you more than that and you have to be strong enough to withstand it so until then turn the TV off.
128. Al said the following at 8:09 PM on Aug 19:
In response to Elmo (#163), for what it's worth, Micah 6:8 does actually appear to be addressed to Israel, as a community of God's people, whom God desires justice and humility from rather than burnt offerings. I do think the verse addresses individuals that make up that community along with all mankind, but the many verses surrounding 6:8, and indeed, all of Micah, deal with God's message to communities.
Hah, sorry, but I'm somewhat anal about context. I got in a slight tizzy his Sunday when a guest preacher quoted Isaiah 58 "Shout it aloud, do not hold back," in support of Christians vocally opposing the acceptance of homosexuality into our culture, when the verses immediately following actually command the shouting be directed at Israel, the supposed community of believers, regarding oppression and social justice. Ironically, social justice is the very issue often neglected admist the hot button issues of homosexual marriage and abortion in some Christian circles. I didn't totally disagree with him in principle, but his use of scripture to support the nuances of his argument made my brows furrow.
129. farmer Tom said the following at 5:19 PM on Aug 20:
Also perhaps you should stop delaying marriage and go find yourself a wife. Maybe this should be a topic Candace should be addressing – single Christian men with active sexual needs and urges roiling and boiling so close to the surface who are putting off marriage for one ridiculous reason after another. Then perhaps we the Christian women who are single but not by choice might be able to get married while we are still capable of having children – a win win for everyone.
Well said, Carrie!!!!!
130. Melissa said the following at 5:46 PM on Aug 21:
If anyone bothers to read this far, I just wanted to add a note about the importance of spandex for modesty. Unlike women's basketball, good volleyball players hit the floor or sand and roll several times a match. When you wear baggy shorts, that means the fans can see right up to your undergarments several times a match. A small number of high school teams do wear baggy shorts for modesty, but they also have to wear spandex underneath for modesty. That combination makes for hot, bulky clothing in a sport where explosive movement is necessary. I respect those teams for their attention to modesty; however, I understand why most teams opt for spandex only.
131. John said the following at 10:10 PM on Aug 21:
Elmo,
I have to assume you tried to address me in your post.
It's rather hard to follow, though, especially since you are extrapolating meanings that I never stated.
I made an analogy between men's sexuality and alcohol. There very similar, though not 100% the same.
As usual, on this blog, you and the rest have misstated what I wrote and strawmaned my arguments.
Women in today's church have the "it's their problem" attitude. That is most definitely not biblical.
I am trying to hold the church to the biblical standard as concerns dress and modesty and humility.
The level of protest on yours and others parts speaks volumes to where you all are spiritually.
It is quite sad the complete lack of compassion on the part of the women, along with the ignorant encouragement of some men. (Maybe the men don't want the secret to get out so that they can continue to enjoy the "fruits" of women's ignorance.)
Too bad the attitude isn't the biblical attitude of humility in trying not to cause a brother to stumble.
Even farmer Tom has fallen victim to this unbiblical mentality. What a shame. Sorry, farmer Tom, but your interpretation of scripture could not be more wrong.
Jo,
Reread my post and understand that nothing you stated as anything to do with what I said.
"That way out is not women changing how they dress. It is not the fault of a women that a man cannot control his libido.)"
That quote above maybe the best summary of the confusion. Where did I ever state something even remotely close to that?
But, let me ask you this, if someone is struggling in an area, should you try to help them or simply say, "it's their problem"?
It is true that the church has adopted the norms of the culture, instead of the other way around.
Comment #105 by Michael. Very well said. You stated it well. The argument about "cultural modesty" is such a joke, it would be laughable, except certain individuals actual believe it passes the sniff test. That deserves a resounding "lol".
Obviously the church is not doing a good enough job at teaching about sex...or reading comprehension.
Anyway, if you can't understand hyperbole with the purpose of demonstrating the intensity of a man's visual nature, then I can't help you.
Elmo, if you don't find the women volleyball players attractive, you may want to talk to someone in your church or a professional about your sexuality.
"What I and the other ladies are challenging is that you have to leave yourself in that uncontrolled state."
I never said differently.
"The average women is not thinking about how many men she can cause to think about her sexually when she gets dressed in the morning."
Re-stated: The average women (sic) ignorant of men's visual struggle dresses however she wants (Christian or not) with not so much of a care of how it affects men.
First, you're wrong; many women do in fact do just that.
Second, that's ignorance is not excuse, especially for Christian women.
Last time.
Our culture is immodest. The church has adopted that immodesty. Men are extremely visually turned on. More so than women ever fully realize, but they (at least Christian women) should at least try to avoid "titillating" men that way. Men have to avoid it AND women have to avoid it. BUT, Christian women seem to want to take no responsibility, and instead just do as the world does. Very sad.
132. John said the following at 10:13 PM on Aug 21:
Final post:
Why do you think women's beach volleyball is on TV so much?
Why not indoor volleyball?
That's what I thought.
133. Jo said the following at 10:47 AM on Aug 22:
As a woman, here is the problem I find I have.
I get dressed every morning. I think about what the weather's like, whether I want to be comfortable or pretty, where I'm going, what I'm doing, and what image I'm going for (casual or smart, fun or serious, youthful or mature, ___ or ___...)
And then I have to think about these things too:
1. I want to attract my future husband (identity as yet unknown). Men are generally attracted visually, so I need to make the most of my appearance, and aim to look attractive.
2. I want to keep some things in reserve so that once I'm married, I don't find that my husband is so de-sensitised to my attractiveness that he is no longer capable of being turned on by my appearance.
3. I don't want to cause my future husband, or any other person, to sin because of the way I look. Being aware that men are generally visual, I don't want to look too attractive or alluring, because I know that this may tempt others to lust.
Now each of these goals is by itself quite simple. The problem is that when you put them together they require a very VERY delicate balance. To look pretty, but not so pretty that men are tempted or de-sensitised... To attract a man sexually without causing him to sin sexually... To make the most of what I have without flaunting it... To draw attention to my appearance without distracting people from my other assets...
With all those things to think about, it's wonder we ever manage to get dressed at all.
Seriously, I really, really agree that we women need to understand and appreciate the struggles men have in these areas. But I also really, really think men need to understand and appreciate that the issue is not an easy one for us either. If you're attracted to us visually, that puts us in a horrendously difficult position as both single women who desire marriage, and Godly women who want to live righteously.
THAT's why we have to find our own applications of modesty. That and the fact that we DO live in different cultures (and that IS relevant), that we have different body shapes and visual 'assets' (to enhance or to cover up), that we are involved in different activities and contexts, and that the men around us are equally individual and have different responses and can't all be put in the same big box labeled "LIABLE TO LUST AT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY".
134. farmer Tom said the following at 8:17 PM on Aug 25:
Even farmer Tom has fallen victim to this unbiblical mentality. What a shame. Sorry, farmer Tom, but your interpretation of scripture could not be more wrong.
If I'm wrong John, I want to correct my error.
I'm confused as to where I made an error though. Where are you referring to??
Again, I want to correct my mistakes, so please help me know what I said that was wrong.
135. Melinda said the following at 8:00 AM on Aug 28:
I happen to be both a devout Christian and a professional volleyball player and coach. I am also the mother of 3 under the age of 12 - all who play both beach and indoor volleyball.
The movements for the women's indoor game are different than that of the men's indooor game. Women play a more defensive finesse game and men play a more power game. As a player, the style of the short and the jersey enable more fluid movement on the court. The men don't need that as much because of the power of their spiking attacks. As we dive and roll on the floor, we don't want to get stuck on our clothes. We also don't want to be dripping with a sweaty cotton tshirt and having to wipe that sweat off the floor and the ball.
In beach, think about it - the girls that are playing this sport have grown up in the beach environment. On training days, it is sometimes hotter than 90 degrees outside! The uniform suits the Olympians wore were very modest and functional relative to the string bikinis I wear and even some of my junior players wear on the beaches here in Florida.
Also note - the INTENTION of these uniforms is for PERFORMANCE - not for attention. If you are giving it that negative attention, that is your issue and choice to see it that way.
Those that are uncomfortable with seeing people in their skin I have always felt are uncomfortable with their own bodies and that is unfortunate. We were born naked after all and were created that way in the beginning. Athletes pay tribute to the body the Lord gave them by designing it for competition, NOT to show off for personal attention.
Beach volleyball has always been a popular sport, and let us note with history that it started to gain popularity with MEN'S beach volleyball when it was first introduced to the Olympics and the national spotlight, NOT the women's game.
Our country represented very well in the Olympics in this sport. I am proud of them and their accomplishment and have no issues dressing in a way that will allow me to perform at my best. Those that want to look at me as a body and not an athlete need to grow up.