Guys Need Guys
by Motte Brown on 08/26/2008 at 6:11 PM
I was off to church the other night for a meeting when I said to my wife, "I'll probably go out with the guys afterward." She responded, "Great. Have fun." Though it meant her having to feed the kids and put them to bed by herself, she recognized that I needed some guy time.
So why do guys need guys? One reason is that men share things with other men that they just don't with women. It could be about work or sports or John Piper sermons or personal struggles ... especially personal struggles. I'm amazed at some of the things I've shared with my buddies. Sometimes I catch myself in the moment and think, Wait. Did I just say that?
It's true. Transparency happens when guys hang out with guys. I think it's partly because we internalize everything for fear of appearing vulnerable. And you tend to let your guard down when you're out with the guys. So the valve just sort of opens.
Interestingly, it's a release that can prove invaluable in marriage.
One night after I droned on and on to my wife about some disappointment in my life, she suggested that I call one of my buddies and go out for some wings. It surprised me a little. I mean, I thought part of a wife's job was to "be there" for her husband. It is. But I've learned that it's possible for a husband to overburden his wife with issues that could (and probably should) be discussed with another man.
It's now one of the ways I protect my wife. She carries enough burdens for the family. There are some that are better carried by myself, the Lord, and my buddies.
1. Dan Hudlow said the following at 6:57 PM on Aug 26
I've never bought this line of thinking. Seems like a cop-out to try to reap the benefits of intimacy while avoiding the hard work that goes along with them.
2. Tim said the following at 9:07 PM on Aug 26
Well said Motte! This could definitely be taken to a bad extreme (especially for married guys), but this is so true.
God has blessed me with some amazing Christian, male friends who have been as brothers to me. I could go on for a long time about how they have sharpened me and blessed it.
3. Justin Gunter said the following at 9:19 PM on Aug 26
I must say, my first response when reading this article was, "wait are you saying I should be more intimate with guy friends than my (future) wife?"
However, the more I think about this issue, the more I am inclined to agree. Although our marriage relationships are not perfect, intimacy is rarely a problem. However, many times intimacy in our friendships is missing. Sometimes our friends can give a more "outside" perspective than a spouse can. Additionally, sometimes a spouse will try to soften an issue in order to protect our feelings; however guy friends are more likely to call us out and tell us "like it is" in full brutal honesty. Finally, although its an imperfect situation that we'd all hope never happens, other guys can be great accountability in the time where we have arguments or disagreements with a spouse and are not as receptive to her suggestions/feedback.
4. Jon said the following at 9:29 PM on Aug 26
Yes!
5. Sarah said the following at 9:39 PM on Aug 26
It's all about balance. I believe there should be a special, intimate relationship between husband and wife, but when I marry, my husband will not become the immediate substitute for all other relationships. My husband will just not be able to play the role that my girlfriends do and I won't be able to play the role his guy friends do. And i don't think we're supposed to.
Great post, Motte.
6. BDB said the following at 10:11 PM on Aug 26
See now, at my church, a testimony like that is wrapped up with:
"So, come to the men's BBQ at the pastor's house on Tuesday! We're having Tri-Tip. Tickets are $5 after the service."
7. Rich said the following at 11:46 PM on Aug 26
I've got a slightly related question...its a bit off topic but at the same time kinda fits. I don't want to hijack the discussion, but I need to ask it somewhere, so here goes:
My friend (a guy...a Christian) came to me the other day and announced that he is going to be the "maid of honor" for his best friend (a woman) at her wedding. Another (Christian guy) friend was along with me, and he heartily congratulated the future maid of honor. I didn't know how to respond. I must have looked surprised, b.c he commented on my shocked look. While he will not be wearing a dress to the wedding, he will be performing some of the functions of the maid of honor.
Since thinking about it, here's what I've come to: this bothers me b.c some traditions shouldn't be tampered with. Of course, if no one knows the purpose of a tradition or what it's for, then it might be up for grabs (changing), but sometimes traditions reflect something deep about reality and who we are, and those shouldn't be done away with so blithely.
As far as this tradition goes (the groom being "backed" by his man, the bride being "backed" by her women)..well, I haven't done any research (forthcoming), but my gut tells me that this reflects something about the way God made the genders different. You can't just stick the male token anywhere you want, b.c he doesn't fit in some "slots" (i.e., the maid of honor "slot.") A woman is suited better than a man at some things, and vice versa.
Secondly, this tradition line shouldn't be crossed for the same reason that generally speaking, men pray for men and women pray for women in ministry settings (setting aside married/engaged/deeply dating couples)...there's an intimacy that should be honored. In the same way, there's an intimacy between the bride and her maid of honor, so that relationship should be kept single-gendered.
Thirdly, if I was her fiancee', I'd definitely be uncomfortable with her having such a close liason with another guy...even if she swore up and down that it was nothing but platonic. When a couple gets closer and closer to marriage, their relationships with opposite sex friends should change.
So, that's my attempt at thinking this through. I want to have this straight in my mind before I talk to him about it, so what do you folks think?
8. Nelson said the following at 12:35 AM on Aug 27
There's also the issue of a woman actually understanding a man like a man and vice versa. A marriage partner, although very intimate, does not make you omniscient. It takes a while for a husband and wife to understand their differences, and this is where an older mentor couple will help a lot.
9. Kerry said the following at 3:04 AM on Aug 27
This is absolutely true. I'm divorced and there was a great deal of emotional anguish just from the fact that try as I might, I couldn't seem to find guy friends who could be brothers during that low-point in my life. To be honest, it made me angry. Since then, I have just a couple guy friends I can share things with. I'm saying even if you're not married...guys STILL need guys.
10. Jo said the following at 3:19 AM on Aug 27
Motte, is this true of us ladies too, do you think?
11. Jo said the following at 4:03 AM on Aug 27
BDB: hahaha, so true!
12. Matt from DC said the following at 7:42 AM on Aug 27
Motte,
Great post, great wife.
BDB,
Nice.
13. Adam said the following at 8:49 AM on Aug 27
Excellent post! I was pondering this a few weeks ago. I have been very blessed to have a group of great guy friends. Sometimes its grabbing lunch some day during the week, text messaging, or just meeting once a week to hang out. My dad never had that though - at least not while I was growing up.
When I asked him about it - he said that it was a different time. Life was much more family centered, so spending time with friends apart from a family context was just not done.
I'd be interested in hearing from fathers or those who have fathers in the 45-50 and up age range. Has society changed in its attitude towards friends? Or was my family just the weird exception?
14. shannon said the following at 10:17 AM on Aug 27
Yes guys need guys and gals need gals... which is why I'm sure you've returned the favor and let her get together with the ladies ;)
15. Bethany D. said the following at 10:56 AM on Aug 27
My husband at first felt like he would hurt me if he ever expressed a preference for occasionally hanging out with the guys - in fact I had to practically kick him out the door the first few times! After trying it he agreed that having some guy-time helps strengthen, not weaken, our relationship.
Adam (#13) My dad is 60 and while he spends most of his time with his family, he does have a few guy friends he is very close to.
16. Rachael said the following at 11:40 AM on Aug 27
If I marry, I may be too fragile to hear of certain private internal struggles (like if he struggles with having unwanted lustful thoughts toward another woman or something). My hope now is that my future husband would discuss these types of struggles with mature, Christian men, and deal with them with God's power, if it seems it would be too much for me to bear and if it would unnecessarily hurt our relationship (if it's something I don't need to be told).
At the same time, I should not burden my future husband with every single issue that bothers me. Hopefully some things I'll be able to work out privately with God, or run things by my mom and see what she thinks.
Even though I'm single now and think intergenerational and inter-marital status community is a good thing, I wonder if I marry, if it'll be harder for me to communicate (than when it was when I was boyfriend-less) with a couple of my good single female (because probably I'll need to guard my heart and lips and refrain from sharing some of what might really be on my heart).
It might be nice, when married, to meet other couples.I realize that making couple-friends would sometimes/often have its challenges (all 4 people might not click), but it might be nice to hang out and then split off for part of the time when hanging out (guy talking with guy, girl talking with girl).
Cross that bridge if it comes...step by step...
17. Iris said the following at 11:53 AM on Aug 27
Rich #7
I don't completely agree with you, I see no problem with letting members of the oppisite sex standing with the groom/bride. We did this at our wedding, my husband's sister stood on his side.
To be fair, it was his sister, not a close female friend, and we partially did it because my husband is not from the US and his friends couldn't come and we needed another person to balance out the total. But the idea of only groomsmen and bridesmaids is a very US (and maybe British) tradition. In my husband's country you have witnesses, two for each side and they can be anybody-friends or family, male of female. I actually thinks this makes more sense as the witnesses sign the marriage certiciate along with the bride and groom.
In the case of your friend, though, I think I would find it weird considering he was asked for the "maid" of honor position. That feels a little too close and unless groom knows this guy very well I would question the wisdom of it.
18. BDB said the following at 12:08 PM on Aug 27
Rachael (#16) wrote:
>>(because probably I'll need to guard my heart and lips and refrain from sharing some of what might really be on my heart). <<
It's been my observation that people who use restraint and always speak respectfully of their spouse in public end up with much better marriages. I know a number of people who DID share everything on their heart, and it was pretty ugly. Who would want to stay married to that? Frankly, I wasn't too surprised when I saw them divorce later.
You can always take the worst stuff to God first, and He can provide guidance about the words to use and the timing to broach the subject with others.
I'm most impressed by the couples who ask for prayer, saying they're facing "X" situation and they disagree on how to approach it, and then they stop. Often, in a small group setting, the other men who've faced that situation will go talk, and the women likewise, but it doesn't turn into a free-for-all.
Unfortunately, there was also a woman who was often sharing whatever popped into her head, and it crossed the line into being disrespectful to her husband. He always spoke respectfully of her. A couple of the women in the group tried to speak to her about it. And she quit and is holding a grudge. It's a red flag.
19. BDB said the following at 12:16 PM on Aug 27
Rich (7) wrote:
>>When a couple gets closer and closer to marriage, their relationships with opposite sex friends should change.<<
Before you talk to him, you MUST read C.S. Lewis' book, The Four Loves, specifically, the chapter on Friendship. The "mr of honor" has a responsibility to be friends with both of them now. If that is what has happened, he's fulfilled his responsibility to adjust.
20. Rachael said the following at 12:54 PM on Aug 27
(Rich, I'd also be extremely uncomfortable with most or all women being a potential "Best Woman" attendant at my future wedding. However, my thought would be to leave the situation at "to each his own". Most likely the groom and bride have already discussed the matter and have reached agreement on it.)
21. Rachael said the following at 12:58 PM on Aug 27
PS to Rich -- Or, you could gently suggest to/confirm with the Man of Honor that the groom is absolutely comfortable with the idea of him fulfilling that role)
22. composer girl said the following at 12:59 PM on Aug 27
Sarah (#5): "It's all about balance."
I think that just about sums it up, both for guys and girls. Guys need their guy friends to talk to and share things with, just like girls need their girl friends. But these necessary friendships should not be to the exclusion of communication with your spouse. You should always be able and willing to open up to your spouse, but don't necessrily need to go running to him/her every single time you have a problem.
23. Marc said the following at 1:29 PM on Aug 27
I have a best friend (a guy, of course) who I have known for 10 years, now. Our friendship is so deep that we can tell each-other anything without fear of being rejected. We keep each-other accountable in different ways. We are practically brothers.
That having been said, we are always encouraging one-another in our pursuit of the "special someone"... However elusive she may be. :-)
24. J. Tucker said the following at 3:02 PM on Aug 27
First off, this is a nice post, Motte. Very thought provoking for me, to say the least.
Second, Rich (#7), I have to be honest and say that I'm pretty offended by your comments about your friend's participation the wedding ceremony. I've been the MAN of Honor twice, and I consider it a great privilege to serve as the protector (or "backup") of my female friends at their weddings. When you do the research you indicated was forthcoming, you will probably find that part of the reason that we have groomsman at all was because there was a need to physically protect the bride from hostile outsiders. The separation of a neat, little, symmetrical wedding party with groomsmen and bridesmaids is actually a pretty modern convention.
There are plently of traditions in "traditional" weddings that most people don't even know the history behind. And the definitions of traditional marriages are completely different depending on which country in the world you are in. In some countries, the bride and groom do not have a wedding party at all and guests are not invited for the ceremony.
In American culture, members of both sexes presumably have friends of both sexes. If I get married, I will definitely want my brother AND my sister to stand next to me. And should like to think that I could invite any female friend to join my side of the wedding party that I wanted without fear of some sort of value judgment being placed on them or me concerning gender roles or sexuality.
Tradition exists in part to remind us of good things and guide us into the future in an orderly manner; not to keep us as slaves to the past. I'd like to think that God gave me female friends for a reason. I don't think that God considers me unfit for the "slot" on the bride's side of the wedding party. In fact, I think it's people like you that are uncomfortable with the idea of a guy being on the girl's side of the wedding, and it is people like you that are making the call on whether the slots are filled appropriately.
I really do hope that you have a beautiful, traditional wedding (or maybe you've already had one). However, the weddings I participated in were beautiful, Christian, and largely traditional as well. Yes, God made two genders, but there are some roles that both genders can fill.
25. BDB said the following at 6:49 PM on Aug 27
As for the traditional wedding stuff...
Hmmm...I'm not sure I'd know how to put on a bridal shower, but I'm sure I could find a book on it.
Seems like it would be easier for the Bride's brothers/friends to participate as groomsmen, and for the groom's sister to be a bride's maid. Still witnesses, right?
I know people who decide to go to Vegas to avoid all these things. They just have a small "intimate" wedding that excludes everyone. Solves the problem. Destination weddings can do the same thing. I went to one in Hawaii. They each just had one sister and one brother in the wedding party.
On a more serious note, you should be glad that people are coming. Someone I know was in a situation where they decided a quick wedding was in order. I heard about it and volunteered to fly to Vegas, and they accepted. There were several of us from the bride's side - including several family. There were zero from the groom's side. I thought that was sad.
Amusingly, and kind of back on topic, he got really tired of all his new male relatives asking him what he did for a living. He was pretty exasperated when I asked, blurting out that that he had a good job, he was a teamster, why does everyone keep asking that!
Accountability, dude!
26. Rich said the following at 9:16 PM on Aug 27
J. Tucker,
Though I might, in the end, be incorrect (still haven't come to a conclusion), I see no reason for you to be offended. Just because I am wrestling with something you have done and just because I might be uncomfortable with something you personally have taken part in does not mean that you have reason to be offended. Me being incorrect is not a reason for you to take offense.
My questioning is nothing personal.
If you can point out bigotry or hatred in my speech and attitude, I will repent readily...but until then, I have nothing to apologize about.
27. Rich said the following at 10:07 PM on Aug 27
P.S--for those of you (including J. Tucker) who have offered perspective, thank you. I'm sincerely trying to think through this, so as I think about this issue, I will ponder what you all have offered.
Point of clarification: the reason why I used the phrase "maid of honor" to describe my roommate is because that is the phrase he used to refer to his role in the wedding when he talked to me...His words, not mine...hence the quotes.
28. Leah said the following at 11:22 PM on Aug 27
Rich, I think you have to let go of your "traditions" in the case of your friend being "maid of honour". They are not traditions dictated by God or the bible. God did not ordain the role of "maid of honour". I know of (don't personally know) a girl who was homeschooled and so did not have any very close female friends- her best friend was her brother. So when she got married, he was her "maid of honour".
While it seems weird to us, understandably, it is not something where God gives us directions. In fact, he never told us how to carry out a wedding. He gave us rules for marriage but not weddings. Some cultures do not even have attendants, or attendants are strictly family. It is just the tradition of our culture for women to have females as their attendants.
You said As far as this tradition goes (the groom being "backed" by his man, the bride being "backed" by her women)..well, I haven't done any research (forthcoming), but my gut tells me that this reflects something about the way God made the genders different.
No. Like I just said, God did not create the position of "maid of honour", so that could not possibly be part of his making genders different.
Thirdly, if I was her fiancee', I'd definitely be uncomfortable with her having such a close liason with another guy...even if she swore up and down that it was nothing but platonic.
That is the only possible reason that she should not have him as "maid of honour". And if the fiance is ok with it, then it's a non-issue.
J Tucker is right in his definitions of what groomsmen were traditionally for. They - traditionally - were actually there to keep out not just hostile outsiders, but also the bride's family from taking her back! If you were keeping with the original meanings of traditions, I don't see why any modern man would want to take on that role. But of course the meanings have changed.
(PS- Bridesmaids were originally a decoy, so if someone was trying to harm the bride, they'd go after a bridesmaid instead. Kind of like Star Wars 1 where Princess Armidalla used a decoy. Of course a man would be unsuitable for that role, but that is not what bridesmaids are for these days.)
29. jblaha said the following at 8:35 AM on Aug 28
Wow! Quite the discussion huh?
Honestly, I was very taken back when I read this post. It was actually shared to me by a friend using Google Reader. I find it humorous that my fiancée and I were discussing this very thing the other night. I have had counsel from couple who have had very hard times in their relationships and have confirmed exactly what I was thinking about this. In the Bible we see that when married, the man and woman become one. To me, this is a huge deal. I do understand that sometimes you have to be discerning as to how much you discuss with you spouse. I know that even from my little experience that sometimes the other person may not be able to handle everything that goes on inside until a lot of trust has been built first. Some things (like Rachel #16) may be overwhelming at first. These are things that you will have to grow in. As time continues, you should become more open to each other. Love itself as described in 1 Cor 13 displays itself as completely vulnerable to pain and hurt. This is what Christ has done for us. He willingly put Himself through pain for us. The only way for us to see how great a cost that was is to see our sins for how terrible they are so we can see how wonderful Christ is. If the display of Christ and the church is what we are supposed to be symbolizing in our marriage, we should learn to open ourselves up to each other. Some things may be very difficult to know, but how are we to become one if we do not share things with each other so that the wife can be an appropriate help mate and the guy the appropriate leader with transparency. This is my premise. I start with this to say that husband and wife are to love, know, and enjoy each other. The relationship between a husband and wife should be the closest form of a relationship on earth since it reflects Christ and the church. This being said, I do not agree with the original post. If, in fact, a man "needs" that time with other guys then let him have that time. I do not think that it should be that often. If things cannot get settled on the home-front, they need to seek godly counsel to resolve it and come back together again. With this being said, I am not trying to discredit relationships of men with men and women with women. The Bible even tells men that we should be a part of teaching younger men and the same with older women and younger women. But as a husband and wife grow closer to each other in marriage, I cannot see that this should become a regular occurrence. If need be, they should have a lot of friends over. Men normally gravitate toward the television as most women usually gravitate toward the kitchen.
@Rich (#7) - As J.Tucker has pointed out, the reason for the groomsmen and bridesmaids were originally in case the wedding was ambushed because a disagreement of the union. I can definitely understand how men may have a best friend as a woman and vice versa. However, as I mentioned earlier, this seems ludicrous when understanding how close the unity of a husband and wife should be. In today's North American culture we really have no reason to have groomsmen and bridesmaids, yet tradition has told us that they are a must. I again say that this may be the case at the wedding, but I would stay away from that as much as possible so that the bonds between a husband and wife can grower tighter without potential interference.
30. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:28 AM on Aug 28
Rich(#7),
Whoa, that sounds like a movie that was released recently.
But regarding the OP, I agree that there is a benefit with iron sharpening iron and some things that are easier to relate to with another guy.
However, I do believe that it is harder for men to do this than women. That is because women tend to be more communal in nature. They often work cooperatively and thus it is easier to be open and share things with each other.
Men on the other hand tend to be more competitive in nature, even with those they are good friends with. If you were to observe group conversations of men and women you'll see the contrast. Women will focus on things like shared experiences, whilst men will focus on things like accomplishments.
This can work counter to sharing weaknesses with other guys because guys are "taught" not to show weakness and that they are "man enough" to deal with life's troubles.
31. Jeremy said the following at 1:01 PM on Aug 28
"That is because women tend to be more communal in nature. They often work cooperatively and thus it is easier to be open and share things with each other.
Men on the other hand tend to be more competitive in nature, even with those they are good friends with. If you were to observe group conversations of men and women you'll see the contrast."
I am pretty shocked that you would say that seriously, because it seems so easy to me to observe the exact opposite. It seems like the kind of line that women will often use to underscore how they are more relational than men (which is true), but in my experience men tend to have much stronger and closer friendships and work together much more easily. Not to sound overly sexist, but perhaps that is why historically, almost everything business- or infrastructure- or invention-related has been done by men.
32. Christina (in green) said the following at 3:49 PM on Aug 28
Jeremy, #31,
I agree with you. All I need to do is watch Mean Girls to get an idea of how communal girls can be...
Or how about Remember the Titans to get an idea of how competitive men can be?
In the real world, though, girls really are a lot more competitive than guys *generally* are.
More relational, yes...less competitive, no.
33. J. Tucker said the following at 4:16 PM on Aug 28
Hey, Rich, thank you for your clarifying notes. I'm sorry if I got a little out of hand with my tone. I tend to get excited when commenting.
To answer your question, I was offended at the way that your post tends to place a negative value judgment on the practice and people involved when a man acts as man of honor or a woman acts as best lady. This comes from the implication that you made regarding how God made the genders different. I agree with you that a healthy discussion is desireable on this issue, but it needs to be done without trying to corner men and women into gender roles that are not Biblical or explicitly defined by God.
In the US, there is much concern over what activities/proclivities make a man a manly man and what activities/proclivities make a woman a feminie woman. But these earthly paradigms are cultural. For example, men in some African cultures wear makeup. In some Biblical cultures, men wore earrings as a sign of wealth.
I think my point is that as Americans we need to be very careful about placing value judgments on aspects of culture that may be different or "strange", because our value judgments may be based on the product of cultural misunderstanding and only that.
34. Leah said the following at 7:40 PM on Aug 28
jblaha said If, in fact, a man "needs" that time with other guys then let him have that time. I do not think that it should be that often. If things cannot get settled on the home-front, they need to seek godly counsel to resolve it and come back together again.
I think you're missing the point. The blog is not saying that men should take their relationship/home problems to other men. It is saying that there are other issues that are better sorted with another man than a wife. And as a wife, I can say that's true. In the earlier stages of our courtship, my boyfriend often had dips of depression (not clinical depression, just emotional) which, as a girlfriend, I felt responsible to help fix. While we ended up getting through it, it was a huge emotional burden that was not my role to shoulder.
Now, while a wife definitely has more of a responsibility to shoulder some of those burdens, there are some things that will upset her and cause more problems than good. If a guy is struggling with pornography or lust, while he should be honest with his wife about it, she should not be the main port of call/accountability partner. He really needs a guy for that.
Even for less serious things, the same applies. My husband loves everything IT, and while I'm mildly interested, I have nowhere near the amount of knowledge needed for him to engage in an intelligent conversation about it. He needs his IT nerd friends for that! And I'm quite happy for him to do that.
35. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:18 AM on Aug 29
Jeremy/Christina (in green),
Research has shown that as a whole, men are more competitive than women, or at least women don't engage as much in competition as men, especially when men are involved.
- Do Women Shy Away From Competition?
-Performance in Competitive Environments: Gender Differences
-Gender Differences in Competition: Evidence From a Matrilineal and a Patriarchal Society
Maybe in your individual experiences it seems women are more competitive, but in a Western, integrated society as a whole, men are more competitive.
36. Mike said the following at 3:45 PM on Aug 29
Rich (#7) -
Having opposite-sex friends stand for each other at the wedding; well, I really don't have an opinion on that. However, I would agree that it's dangerous to have close friends of the opposite sex when you're married.
Why is that? Because they represent an emotional competitor for your spouse, especially if you've known that other person longer. When you have a close friend, you share intimacies, and when that friend is of the opposite sex, that sharing can be threatening to your spouse.
Or, consider this scenario: You're recently married, and you have a fight. For comfort, or to talk things through, you go to your friend - who is of the opposite sex. This is fertile breeding ground for adultery, at least of the emotional variety if not the physical.
So, I'd have to come down on the side of "bad idea". It's just too tempting; any time spent with a close "friend" of the opposite sex gives at least the appearance of impropriety...and we're cautioned against that by Scripture, yes?
37. Andy said the following at 12:15 PM on Aug 30
I concur that guys need brotherly accountability & women need sisterly accountability @ specified times. But I don't believe that opposite genders hafta be afraid to share "confidential things" w/ one another. Christian brothers & sisters should narrow brotherly & sisterly links to single gender once in a while; we should also mix genders in even personal, brother-sister thoughts fearlessly once in a while.
The presence of the opposite gender really should not be compelling toward keeping exclusive "girl talk" & "guy talk" like gender secrets. As flesh-blood brothers & sisters are not afraid to release secrets unbottled, so I believe Christian brothers & sisters should be equally unafraid. That's good thinking, right? I know "United Pentecostals" tend to attack such a mentality, but such "opening up" really isn't some indecent bean-spiller, is it? Whaddy'all think?
38. Leah said the following at 7:36 PM on Aug 31
Jeremy said but in my experience men tend to have much stronger and closer friendships and work together much more easily. Not to sound overly sexist, but perhaps that is why historically, almost everything business- or infrastructure- or invention-related has been done by men.
That's not really what "relational" means. Yeah, men might work together better. But given the choice, they'd probably rather work alone and women would probably rather work with someone. Women thrive in relationships, men less so. I think this is exemplified in my husband and I; keep in mind that even though he is a people-person extrovert, he needs 'alone time' to think things through, and if we've argued, he wants to be alone.
However with me- more of an introvert- I need to talk to someone to think things through, and if we've argued, I want to be with him to discuss it.
And I don't think it's just us; Shaunti Feldhahn discusses it in "For Women Only" as well (the fact that men generally need more alone time than women).
39. a sister said the following at 6:54 AM on Sep 1
Motte,
It's rather a truism that both sexes need friends of the same sex after marriage. For your wife to release you in that and you to release her will benefit both of you. The "one flesh" relationship of marriage does NOT mean that you are to be a self-contained unit that doesn't need others -- far from it. You will both continue to need the church - both brothers and sisters for counsel, perspective, friendship, service and care. While your most intimate relationship is with each other, you both need others, and particularly others with whom you can share openly.
So far, we are in agreement. The reasons why a husband will always need guy friends and a wife will need girlfriends are subject to interpretation.
1) there is some danger in becoming too close with someone other than your spouse, esp in your age group, of the opposite sex.
2) there is a value in hearing the perspective of people of the same sex because we assume that they can largely relate to our life experience (as a man or woman) without their judgment being clouded by the immediacy of what we are struggling with at the moment.
3) Scripture provides models of close same-sex friendships (particularly for men) and commends them for women.
But some of the other reasons you give, Motte, are disputable conjecture at worst, and personal for you and your wife at best.
That you enjoy fellowship with your guy friends because you can (a) more easily be vulnerable with them or (b) in order to protect your wife from certain burdens are not necessary biblical reasons for guy fellowship.
While it is true that some wives are not as interested in talking about sports or work or Piper sermons with their husbands, others are. Some wives don't enjoy these things; others will. Some wives, like a girl who posted above, will want to be "protected" from their husbands deepest struggles; others, while recognizing the wisdom of godly counsel from pastors or more mature friends, will want to be involved in their husbands struggles.
Here's my concern -- some men actually try to discern "what women want" from posts by married guys like you. But what women want is far from monolithic - each married or dating guy should be more concerned with how to serve his woman - and that may not look like what serves your wife.
I, for one, enjoy very close relationships with girlfriends. But I'm one of the gals who deeply enjoys digging into the meat of a sermon with friends. I enjoy it every bit as much as you seem to, Motte. But my girlfriends (perhaps like your wife) often aren't so interested in doing so. And the brothers I know assume that I won't be interested because I'm female so they do not even consider including me in those conversations.
I'm not interested in sports but one of my girlfriends is - far more so than her husband, actually. She dislikes it when the guys - sometimes physically shut her out of sports conversations because they assume that sisters aren't interested in those things.
I just don't want my brothers -- many of whom seem all too inclined to stereotype sisters interests based on their gender -- to do so because you've told them that's how we want to be treated -- out of some misguided belief that they are actually serving all of us by excluding us from the conversation about Piper's sermon or the football game or protecting us from the rigors of their work-a-day struggles.
Hope that makes sense a little bit. :-)
40. Rachael said the following at 8:36 PM on Sep 1
Andy,
I think I'm realizing that 'opening up' toooooooo much to any gender isn't always the healthiest thing for me, even with a potential pre-fiance. For me I can get lost in the abysses of my mind that way, and become overly introspective and heavy. It doesn't feel healthy. That said, I value openness to a large degree, and think it's very important to be open about many things with a spouse or someone you're considering marriage with.
On the other hand, I do not believe it wise to be too open and close in one-on-one relationships with a member of the opposite sex who is not a boyfriend. For me, that wasn't healthy in the emotional attachment-crush department. I think it can be all too easy for members of the opposite sex to get emotionally attached when the heart opens up.
41. Helen said the following at 7:43 PM on Dec 30
The core issue with making this work successfully is that both partners share the same value system. Otherwise, it does not work. I have lived this, waiting for my partner to come home from a "guys night out", from which he appeared 2 days later. I was a Christian and he was not. It was doomed from the start. Unless both partners can agree on boundaries for individual time which is respectful for both, this can prove to be counterproductive and ruin a relationship.