A Knight Too Dark?
by Ted Slater on 08/21/2008 at 3:39 PM
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."
You may recognize that challenge from Philippians 4:8, something I've wrestled with ever since I first read it decades ago. How is that even possible this side of Heaven? How do I engage my culture, for example -- which is often polluted by lies, dishonor, injustice, impurity, ugliness and the like -- when Scripture seems to encourage a disengagement from such things?
Specifically, how do I engage with cultural artifacts such as movies, when so often they're tainted by perversity and vulgarity? And even more specifically, in light of this verse, what are the moral issues involved in watching -- or even deciding whether or not to watch -- the latest and darkest Batman flick, The Dark Knight?
Join Boundless author Matt Kaufman as he wrestles with this problem in today's featured article, "A Knight Too Dark?"
1. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:13 PM on Aug 21
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."
Ted, like you, I take that verse incredibly seriously. And I usually fully agree with your take on it and what you apply it to. I used to have this verse on a book mark so that I'd be reminded of it everytime I picked up a new book to read.
Thing is, there is truth, justice, excellence, and something worthy of praise to be found in The Dark Knight.
Usually, in movies, the evil that is found in them is whitewashed and downplayed and treated like absolutely nothing (Sex in the City). This movie did not treat evil in such a way - and dealt with some things that we don't really think about so starkly that maybe its good to consider once in a while.
And now I feel like I'm justifying my watching it...but still...
Christ was purity made sinful to cleanse the sinful and protect us from the ultimate evil.
In The Dark Knight, you find a man who fights to triumph over evil take the blame for something he didn't do to protect the people of Gotham.
I don't know...others can explain this far better than I can, but when we contemplate the sacrifice that Christ made for us, its hard to truly understand what magnificent grace was bestowed on us unless we understand in some part what depravity we've been rescued from.
Without that, I don't think its possible to truly appreciate God's grace.
I don't think its good to overly dwell on depravity and evil without that which sheds light on it - which is Christ. And its when we know the light of Christ that we know what darkness really is.
2. RF said the following at 4:13 PM on Aug 21
I loved Kaufman's article. I did go to see Dark Knight and was amazed at the darkness of it. While my friends raved on and on about how much they enjoyed it, I privately wondered how one could so thoroughly enjoy a movie that had so many dark themes. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy parts of it, but I left the theater with a very dismal view on the world and the sinfulness of both man in general, and my own heart. There were redeeming parts of the movie. I think Batman (though not perfect as Kaufman pointed out), played the role of a savior much like our own Savior. He was not appreciated or even seen as the hero he was. He was simply needed. On the same note, the Joker played a role that is all too familiar to Satan. Satan wants to see destruction for the sake of destruction, not for some ulterior motive.
All of this rambling to say: I appreciated your post, Ted, and Kaufman's article. How much darkness is too much? At what point do we excuse it as just being entertainment?
3. Laura said the following at 4:53 PM on Aug 21
There's a difference between darkness for its own sake and darkness that leads to redemption. Clearly that's one of the film's theme, and for me, it was a great metaphor for the sinfulness of humanity and the sacrifice needed to redeem that sin - even when the sacrifice isn't appreciated.
Like so many issues, this is one that there's no easy line to draw for every Christian on whether or not to see it. I wouldn't let children or young teens see it, but it could prompt great discussion and thinking among a group of spiritually mature teenagers or adults.
4. Adam said the following at 4:56 PM on Aug 21
A huge portion of this debate really comes down to what we choose to do with the evil and darkness that we are exposed to. I don't see Jesus walking away when a woman who was just busted committing adultery was drug out in front of him. Jesus oftentimes seemed to associate with the lowest in society.
In the book of Acts, the apostles had to deal with full-on idol worship. The sin surrounding that can be pretty shocking.
In my jobs over the years, I have been exposed to an extreme amount of cussing, sexual jokes, etc. When I turn on the news, I hear the grisly details of the latest murder.
There is evil and darkness all around us. I find we have a couple of options. First, we can withdraw from the culture. Homeschool kids, Christian employment, live out in the country, don't watch tv, etc. Or we can realize that darkness has always been around, and seek to be a light right in the middle of the darkness.
We have a responsibility to avoid entertainment which we feel may cause us to sin. For some, that may mean stay out of the strip club. For others it might mean don't go see Batman. Some people might need to avoid stuff with bad language. Others might need to avoid women's volleyball.
We have a responsibility to engage our culture. Paul got shipwrecked, and engaged the culture in the strange place where he landed. We can go for the separatist approach, but it doesn't seem to be exemplified in Scripture.
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Oftentimes people seem to worry about these issues. While I think there's room for ongoing discussion, I don't think we have pretty clear guidelines once it becomes a concern.
If you back up a few verses from Phil 4:8, you will see the admonition to not worry about anything, but rather to bring it to God. And the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Now if the anxiety is gone - we have a choice about what to think about and space to do it in. With our hearts and minds guarded, we are then supposed to think about good stuff. And then do good stuff. And then the God of peace will be with us.
I guess the bottom line is that I think we do three things:
#1: Be in an attitude of prayer that the world will not corrupt us. Be in the Word so it is in the forefront of our thoughts.
#2: Use some basic wisdom about our weaknesses to try and avoid areas where we will fall into temptation.
#3: Engage the culture full on. Go see Dark Knight. Go see Sex and the City if you are in that demographic. If you are working with youth, find out about what they listen to - not just a review from a distant website. But don't just be a passive consumer. Rather be someone who takes the ideas and themes of a culture and use them to point people towards God.
If we are to be the salt of the earth, we have to be right there in the mix if we are to be experienced by the world.
`All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'
5. James said the following at 5:17 PM on Aug 21
Ted, I think y'all came so close to realizing what is represented (whether intetionally or not....I think unintentionally) in the Dark Knight, but then go on this rampage about how it is too dark.
Thing is that you miss that it's TRULY dark. Not in that it revels in the darkness but that the darkness portrayed is truly what lurks in the heart of man, and that it is tragic and NOT at all good.
Morally, the Dark Knight is quite biblical, actually, in terms of portraying human sin and how none of us are untainted by it. The Joker is probably the best personification of Satan that I've seen in ANY movie. His reason for doing things is to corrupt and destroy. And the stronger someone is, the more he desires to see (and cause) them to fall.
I left that movie impacted, but not saddened or depressed. I left it more resolute that the only hope for people is the cross of Jesus. Because I was shown by that movie everything the bible says about human evil and the inescapability of human depravity.
Dark Knight too dark? No, it is not in the least. It is as dark as man truly is, and it proclaims it; not proudly, or haughtily, but sadly. And though it leaves this question unanswered, it begs the questions, "If even Batman isn't free from this, then who is?" For secularists, they'll miss this or will pass it off as "It's up to each person." But for the Christian, the answer is more abundantly clear, "Only Jesus. Only Jesus."
Never have I seen the secular media come so close to acknowledging the taint and inescapability of human sin as I have seen them do with this movie. FANTASTIC!
6. Nicole (from Boston) said the following at 5:19 PM on Aug 21
I have seen "The Dark Knight" twice and would like to see it again. Both times I saw it, though struck by the darkness of the themes, I came away more grateful for the Gospel. Like Christina (in green) (#1), I saw in Batman's sacrifice a type of Christ's sacrifice. SPOILER ALERT The question is posed in the movie "Why is he running away? He didn't do anything wrong." I ask the same thing about Christ. "Why is he dying there on that cross? He didn't do anything wrong." True, He did nothing wrong. I did and He died for it. In the words of an old hymn "the slave hath sinned and the Son hath suffered." Truly, the Gospel is glorious. And so, though I might not recommend the movie to others because of its darkness, for me personally, it draws my eyes to Christ and His wonderful propitiation on my behalf.
7. Mike said the following at 5:28 PM on Aug 21
Okay, first a disclaimer: I haven't seen the film yet.
However, I must say that Kaufman's article was very, very good. I think it's very important to treat films (or books, or other media) of this nature seriously and not as entertainment. They're not; they are explorations of darkness, the sin that exists in all of us.
I was listening to a podcast today from Family Life Today about something they called "hothouse Christians" - meaning people who are raised in a very sheltered Christian environment, never being exposed to the world. Overprotected spiritually, if you like. As a result, they have very shallow roots and wither quickly at the first hint of evil. So, it may be important to remember that an untested faith is often a weak faith.
The key, I think, is to watch it, should you choose so, with an attitude of a guarded heart. As you watch Batman pound the Joker, don't celebrate. Think instead only that the Batman is doing what is necessary to defeat evil - and he will come away scarred in the process. All warriors do.
8. Craig M. said the following at 5:30 PM on Aug 21
I find this sort of analysis just frustrating and confounding. The common line on Boundless with regards to film seems always to be that any portrayal of serious evil or darkness amounts to an endorsment of that portrayal. The authors seem to favor "happy, positive, uplifting" films that avoid the entire question of how to grapple with evil--ignoring that one core purpose of art is to wrestle with the hard questions of life.
The Dark Knight is a brilliant, brilliant film. The world is full of darkness. What the film is asking is, "how should one fight implacable evil?" If you had Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden, in your sights, would it be right to pull the trigger? The film's answer is ambiguous. It concludes, I think, that the maintenance of civilization and the protection of the weak depend on the willingess of good men to fight dirty to defeat real evil--but that doing so can have real personal and spiritual costs. That's a uniquely thoughtful answer to a very tough question.
Are Christians not supposed to consider portrayals of evil that are serious and intimidating? Are we to restrict ourselves to safe and easily managed dangers, deluding ourselves into a belief that hard choices are easy?
I simply cannot understand a Christian "critique" of this particular film. I found it to be one of the deepest, most profoundly moral movies of recent years.
9. Justin Gunter said the following at 6:35 PM on Aug 21
Reading through the amazing comments left by other readers so far, I hardly think I'm adding anything to this discussion; however I would tend to agree with the general consensus. I personally found the movie quite inspiring and much to the contrary of being depressed by the evil in the move, I felt inspired and confident that evil can be defeated by good.
Spoilers Below!
Does the movie portray darkness? Yes, most definitely. Does it glorify in darkness? No. That in brief is my summary. To unpack this a little more the movie definitely has violent, even disturbing themes; however these actions are neither rewarded or shown to be appealing in anyway.
Further, I met quite a few people who found Harvey Dent's corruption to be disturbing. While This can be seen as a "dark" theme, it is not an unrealistic theme. Evil's corrupting power is not a topic glossed over in the bible. Over and over again we see warnings that anyone can be caught off guard and none of us should think we are somehow above the influence of sin. It is even interesting to note that the supposedly good and righteous character of Harvey Dent fell into a trap of sin. My understanding from the movie (since they spared no time in being sure viewers saw him as an evil character) is this was a warning that we cannot let our lives be controlled by circumstances or think we are somehow above the evil we fight. Perhaps the best biblical portrayal of this would be the fall of Satan. We are told he was the greatest of God's creations, and yet he too fell to sin and corruption.
Coming to the character of Batman, there is definitely some room to argue both ways; however my simple opinion is to see him as a man, just like any of us. Are his actions perfect? No, But does he strive for good and justice? Yes. Going back to different great Biblical heroes (take Moses and David for instance), the Bible does not gloss over their shortcomings and mistakes; however their guiding life principles are focused on God's will and direction. In reference to the ending, I must say I agree that my thoughts jumped immediately to Christ's sacrificial death, while I'm not trying to setup Batman in anyway as an allegorical Christ, the theme of sacrifice is most definitely there. Furthermore the entire concept of a Dark Knight, as explained at the ending is almost exactly what Christians are called to be. We are not here to be liked, we don't work to be praised, we don't even expect praise. We expect to be hated and despised for our righteous actions, but we continue in righteousness and truth simply because it is righteous and is true.
Finally, I have heard it argued that overall the movie is simply too dark. On that issue I must say I believe many people focus on the darkness and don't realize the light. I found Harvey Dent's speech ("The night is darkest just before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming.")at the press conference to be extremely inspiring. Furthermore, the scene of the two groups of people on the ferries showed that we can make a choice based on a moral superlative even when society would give us justification to momentarily forget our morals. Additionally, the entire scene with Batman (and the dialogue there) was a testament in my mind to the ideal that evil is present, and it will keep coming, but it can be defeated in the little battles and eventually it will be defeated in total (for Christians at the second coming of Christ). Finally, the movie ended on a positive note, both the two bad guys were vanquished and Gotham had persevered through a time of intense evil and trial and was looking to a better future.
In conclusion, Our world is not a land absent of evil. In my mind the most inspiring movie is not one that pretends evil does not exist, but instead acknowledges firmly the existence of evil, shows us how bad and corrupting it is, and then goes on to assure us that no matter how bad evil is it can still be defeated. That is the portrayal of evil in the Bible, and it is my belief that is also the portrayal of evil the The Dark Knight.
10. BDB said the following at 7:55 PM on Aug 21
Yes, The Dark Knight is dark.
I think every adult should see it.
Like James (#5) I would say that I was impacted by the movie, rather than "enjoying" it. I agree that the movie shows the true darkness in the heart of men. It's not unlike the way The Passion of the Christ impacted me. It wasn't a fun movie to watch.
The choices presented in The Dark Knight are the same choices presented by the Global War on Terrorism. If we are faced with a threat that doesn't follow any "rules," will we sacrifice our own morality to defeat it?
11. Devin said the following at 8:03 PM on Aug 21
While I agree with the premise of the article, I didn't find The Dark Knight as bad as the article made it out to be. Though it was very dark, it was tasteful in its depictions. And, it certainly did have redemption, as the others above have noted. I think it was a good reminder that the antithesis runs through us all, and that was not overwhelming in the film. Also, Batman's ethical (or unethical) actions in the film did not bother me; rather, I thought of Rahab doing what she what was necessary to protect the Israelite spies. Rahab didn't make a habit out of lying to those at her front door, and neither did Batman perpetuate his tactics. He did what was necessary to combat evil.
12. BDB said the following at 8:08 PM on Aug 21
It's important to remember that when Nazi's attempted to infiltrate the U.S. and attack inside the U.S., one of them turned himself in. Note the Coast Guard guy who refused to be bribed. We should have listened to him, just like we should have listened to the guys at the flight schools who got concerned and contacted the FBI before 9/11.
13. jen said the following at 8:27 PM on Aug 21
<<< “How much can a story wrestle with evil within us while still focusing on the good?” >>>
<<< “..so that it's inescapably clear that evil dwells in even the best of them and, inescapably, us.” >>>
I’m sorry – but – have you forgotten that you, and I, and each of us, have a brain? Authored only by the God who have given us Free Will – unlike any movie’s scriptwriter that I’ve ever heard of! I know that English teachers & moviewriters & the rest of us other intellectuals like to elevate fiction’s pedestal as high as possible. BUT. It’s just a story. The characters do what the writers and actors want – no more no less. NOTHING in a fiction makes anything “inescapably clear” about Any Real Person.
And - sorry – but, no matter how much we like to use these phrases – no Movie or other Fiction wrestles with Anything. (Except, how to work well as a story, how to go together well as a movie, how to have enough action and enough movement to draw in its viewers.)
A MOVIE, a fiction, does not make Any truth “inescapably clear.” At its very best, the very best any fiction can do is to Illustrate its writers’ (& its actors’) Ideas.
What Is inescapable about fiction is that well-presented stories, by their nature, are engaging. And often, unfortunately, convincing. Regardless of the amount of actual truth they do, or do not, contain. Jesus used stories’ engaging nature to communicate Truth. “Dark Knight” uses stories’ (and film’s) engaging nature to Wallow in Evil.
<<< “If you back up a few verses from Phil 4:8, you will see the admonition to not worry about anything, but rather to bring it to God. And the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.” >>>
Have you ever tried to learn trigonometry? If so – which did you study, the wrong methods and answers, or the right ones? Did your trigonometry teacher feel it was necessary to “engage the culture” of non-mathematicians, by studying your possible wrong answers?
Or how about working with money? When I first trained as a bank teller, we were taught to recognize counterfeit money. How? Did we “engage the culture” of counterfeiters, by studying all the possible ways a bill could be evil (counterfeit)? Just like D.K. uses the Joker to study all the possible ways a person could be evil?
No. Of course not. In that secular bank setting, we did just what the bible says to do: focused solely on what was true & noble & pure – the Real thing! -– until we knew it so well that any deviance, any counterfeit would be immediately obvious.
<<< “We have a responsibility to engage our culture. Paul got shipwrecked, and engaged the culture in the strange place where he landed. We can go for the separatist approach, but it doesn't seem to be exemplified in Scripture.” >>>
“Engaging the culture.” I see and hear that term all the time nowadays. It sounds so.. well.. high-minded. And, it works so well as a reason to Not keep our minds clean – to Not be careful what our eyes see, or our ears hear, or (in some cases) what our lips say & our hands do.
It is true that Paul “engaged the culture.” But, he didn’t do it by spending his time observing all the evil practiced in pagan temples. Paul – no, nor Jesus either – never said for Christians to wallow in teachings about evil. Did Not tell us to focus on evil as a way to learn about good, neither for ourselves nor as a way to teach non-believers. No, not even if that evil had praiseworthy elements mixed in! Paul did not convert Roman guards by telling them about evil, but by telling them about Jesus.
Remember when you first learned to ride a bicycle? (Or, say, ski downhill?) Remember how essential it was to “look where you’re going?” Because, whatever you looked at, That was Where you Landed.
That’s why the bible tells us to think on whatever is Good, Noble, Pure, etc. Spending two-and-a-half hours watching the devil’s triumphs doesn’t qualify. Even if the good guy wins.. (well, maybe-kinda-sorta wins..) at the end – it still doesn’t qualify!
14. jen said the following at 8:58 PM on Aug 21
<<< “If you back up a few verses from Phil 4:8, you will see the admonition to not worry about anything, but rather to bring it to God. And the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.” >>>
I’ve always liked CS Lewis explanation of God’s peace. (I think it was in "Screwtape Letters.") He says that God gives grace for the Real problems that we really face Right Now. But, that God does Not promise to give me, right now, the grace to deal with the very real difficulty I may face Tomorrow. But rather, that, Tomorrow, is when He will give me grace to deal with tomorrow’s difficulty tomorrow's evil.
If CS Lewis is correct about this – and, I think he is, both from my own experience as well as from the bible –("sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof")- then –
WHY would we expect God to give us the grace to deal with a MOVIE's evil?? A movie that is Not reality Today, nor even tomorrow, nor ever will be?
What reason makes us expect God’s Peace to guard our hearts while we willingly enjoy these evil fantasies?
(Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof!!)
15. DannieA said the following at 10:10 PM on Aug 21
For me, this movie personified how evil Satan is...which actually made me think about evil and good and realize that in life Satan is no joke and that God is truly Good.
NOw, I don't think if I had a younger child or adolescent, I'd let them see it.
16. nab said the following at 10:35 PM on Aug 21
A walk down several streets in my hometown confirms everything scripture says about sin and corruption. Should I run from their realities out of fear for my soul and a questionable reading of Paul, just as I would from Dark Knight? I could, but I'm not sure if I'd be brought to me knees in prayer as often or as earnestly.
Holy baptized escapism, Robin.
17. Ted Slater said the following at 10:59 PM on Aug 21
James (comment #5), you wrote that we went on a "rampage about how it is too dark."
I have no clue what you're talking about. Help me understand where the "rampage" is in either my blog post or Matt's article.
Is it wrong to wrestle with the desire to both pursue biblical purity and engage culture? Is godliness irrelevant? Should I simply dismiss hard passages of Scripture and instead indulge in whatever Hollywood sends my way?
Let's be thoughtful here, James, and not be too quick to denounce those who wrestle with how best to honor the Lord in their media consumption.
I should probably direct my comments to Craig M. as well, who has entirely missed the point of both this blog post and Matt's article. We're not about isolating ourselves from reality, or disengaging from the reality of evil; we're concerned with how to honor the Lord, in part by applying His Scriptures in the decisions we make every day.
18. JJ said the following at 11:49 PM on Aug 21
I seem to remember similar things being said about Burton's Batman and especially Batman Returns... besides the latest being more intense and serious, I don't see a huge difference between them and The Dark Knight. And I'd consider Lord of the Rings much darker, I don't see how you can't. But I have no problem seeing the glimmer of hope in dark movies and for me, those are the most encouraging. But, everyone can interpret differently, and should judge their viewing habits accordingly.
19. JJ said the following at 11:58 PM on Aug 21
Mike (7) I just noticed your last comments.
"As you watch Batman pound the Joker, don't celebrate. Think instead only that the Batman is doing what is necessary to defeat evil - and he will come away scarred in the process. All warriors do."
You haven't seen the film as you stated, but this scene is shown to be useless for Batman, as it only encourages the Joker. In fact the film very cleverly works in some current hot topics such as torture, wiretapping - and shows that the ends do not justify the means. (something we'd do well to put into practice)
20. sumi r. said the following at 2:04 AM on Aug 22
You should watch everything that is not Christ centered with a "guarded" heart: Lord of the Rings, Twilight, Harry Potter and yes, even Dark Knight. Thats a given.
Frankly, I'm glad to finally see good acting being put in high esteem. And DK has GREAT acting, good story line, it totally respects the comic's lore; I was totally impressed. Worth every bit of $9.50, and I don't get to say that very often.
I totally agree that overprotected spiritually, does produce "very shallow roots and wither quickly at the first hint of evil." Don't let this movie do that to you.
If this movie challenges your faith, stand up to the challange.
21. Kelly said the following at 4:33 AM on Aug 22
I won't be seeing this movie. I know I would find it far too upsetting - due to violence and the implied glorification of such. (I mean, it's Batman, he catches/kills bad guys, even if it's bloodless that's still not something I want to see.)
And for those who say it's a good illustration of moral choices... were you saying the same thing about the SATC movie or were you condemning that one? ;)
22. IMO said the following at 6:40 AM on Aug 22
Adam (#4)
You said, "We have a responsibility to avoid entertainment which we feel may cause us to sin. For some, that may mean stay out of the strip club."
How about ALL (not some) Christians should stay out of a strip club?
I would think this would be a clearer issue in the bible than volleyball ...
Then you said,"#3: Engage the culture full on. Go see Dark Knight. Go see Sex and the City if you are in that demographic. If you are working with youth, find out about what they listen to - not just a review from a distant website. But don't just be a passive consumer. Rather be someone who takes the ideas and themes of a culture and use them to point people towards God."
Doesn't that contradict your previous statement that, "We have a responsibility to avoid entertainment which we feel may cause us to sin?"
23. Sarah P. said the following at 7:34 AM on Aug 22
I'm with Adam, James, Nicole, and Mike. The Dark Knight is one of my new favorite movies, along with Shawshank Redemption, Aliens 2, and others. Sometimes, the darker the darkness, the brighter the light. If the pressure and pain are not great, how can it be great and noble to sacrifice and stand firm?
I came out of the movie with a profound gratefulness for God. If you don't know God, the Batman universe could leave you quite depressed, since the basic gist of it is that the lunatics constantly break out of Arkham and kill more people, and then they just get shoved back in again instead of being executed. The brave humans standing against evil are doing what they must, and they always win, but never permanently. Evil is more elemental and rages more powerfully.
So it leaves you asking, "Where is God?" Which is generally a good place to be, so long as you use it as an opportunity to go find Him instead of wallowing in doubt and darkness. I personally don't mind some tears and pain of mind in my conversations with God. :)
24. Tami said the following at 8:17 AM on Aug 22
I watched The Dark Knight and kept wondering, "I wonder how Jesus would confront The Joker, if He faced him." And *would* there be a morally perfect way for a mere person like you or me to stop the Joker?
I did find it somewhat ironic that, on the heels of Kaufman's article, today's article relies on the title of (and some references to) Fight Club, a pretty brutal novel/movie that celebrates a lot of dark themes. The article itself is great, but it's sort of odd to see that title juxtaposed with an article that poses the question of whether or not we should, as Christians, watch such movies. (I haven't watched Fight Club, nor have I read the novel.)
25. Craig M. said the following at 10:58 AM on Aug 22
Oh, and Kelly--#21--with respect, you actually don't know what you're talking about. Batman's defining characteristic is that he DOESN'T kill. Batman doesn't even kill when maybe he should. He doesn't kill a single person the entire film. How can you criticize when you don't know the most basic facts about the film or its main character?
And the comparison to Sex and the City is absurd. There's no sex in Batman, and violence is not celebrated. The purpose and message of the two films are utterly different. You may as well compare pornography and medical textbooks because they both feature human anatomy.
26. Stef said the following at 10:59 AM on Aug 22
I can't help but really wonder about the "cultural relevancy" argument for watching movies. I'm not at all against watching movies; I see them frequently and have probably ended up watching way more grisly and/or inappropriate things than I ever care to admit. However, I don't constantly go to the theatre, and I'm that type of person who has somehow never managed to see the huge blockbuster people are talking about, because I just don't make it a big priority. I guess maybe I could be missing out on opportunities for conversations with non-believers, but in my experience, people at social gatherings that discuss entertainment will say "Have you seen that movie?" I say "No," and 3-4 minutes later they are done talking about the movie, and discussing something else, usually a highly inappropriate TV show that I definitely haven't watched...you would end up having to watch A LOT of garbage to truly "engage the culture". Fortunately, most people actually like to talk about real life, not just movies. I've found it's easy to have a pretty thorough awareness about what's going on in the entertainment world, so that you don't sound completely out of it, just by browsing magazines for a few minutes at the grocery checkout each week! And that hardly brings the risk of evil infiltrating your mind like a two-hour movie could.
27. BDB said the following at 12:11 PM on Aug 22
Kelly (#21) wrote:
>> (I mean, it's Batman, he catches/kills bad guys, even if it's bloodless that's still not something I want to see.)<<
SPOILER ALERT: That's just it - Batman doesn't kill them because he's following a moral code that requires him to stop short of that; and his temptation is to defeat the enemy by breaking his own "rules."
You do see the same thing in LOTR. It was more apparent in the books:
Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, the three who had the Elven rings of power, all had the chance to take he One Ring. They all said no. They were tested and passed.
The passengers on Flight 93 had to make a choice. Once they learned via cell phone that the other three planes were flown into buildings, they stopped playing by the "rules," which said to cooperate with hijackers. I doubt that any group of passengers will ever again let people hijack a plane.
28. Shepherd Ahlers said the following at 12:42 PM on Aug 22
Tami said: "I wonder how Jesus would confront The Joker, if He faced him."
Jesus faced far worse than "the Joker"! In fact, the Joker's taunting of Batman, and not to mention his giddy delight in evil reminded me many times of how I would imagine Satan taunting Christ. (Both in recorded scripture, and how I conjecture he might have at other times)
Batman however responded in a way that would reflect more on us in our fallenness, rather than Jesus, who responded to Satan with clarity and authority. (Even after being in the desert for 40 days without food or water. I think I would have been VERY tempted to make a frostee out of clay, probably by the first day.....)
Like Nicole (#6) made a good point about Batman's sacrifice in becoming the scapegoat at the end of the film reflecting on what Christ has done. But it truly doesn't even come close to representing it. Christ in history made a much greater sacrifice than Bruce Wayne at the end of The Dark Knight
I shouldn't watch a movie like this if I can't see it only as a story, imperfect, and derivative of reality. I need to walk out of the theater understanding the themes, and seeing them in light of truth and proper reasoning.
I still think the film was brilliant. Brilliant I tell you!
It seems to me that super hero type stories most often are centered around a Christ like theme. A savior complex. The bible itself is dark reading at times... but don't forget that this film is only a chapter. The ending is merely a transition. Sorta like stopping in the middle of Luke 23...
29. Adam said the following at 1:20 PM on Aug 22
IMO,
There was a church in the town where I live where the women went to a strip club to minister to the ladies working there. I am totally in favor of it. I also know I could never do it myself without falling into temptation. Biblically, I don't see anyplace as being so incredibly evil that no Christian should ever attempt to go inside.
On your second observation, I don't think there is a conflict. Avoid the areas which can cause us to stumble. Aggressively engage with the rest.
30. Kit said the following at 1:22 PM on Aug 22
Not to be rude, but my general impression of the article was that it seemed to say that because it didn't have a happy ending, we shouldn't watch it. What a ridiculous idea.
My thoughts lie with Craig M. It was, truly, brilliant.
31. IMO said the following at 1:32 PM on Aug 22
Hi Adam,
"There was a church in the town where I live where the women went to a strip club to minister to the ladies working there."
Maybe you should have clarified that in your first post.
Unless of course these church ladies are getting lap dances while they are doing their ministry. Then yea I take issue.
32. Laura said the following at 1:49 PM on Aug 22
I'd be really interested to know if there are any believers among the film's writers, producers, and directors. Even if not, they clearly had to explore themes of death and redemption.
33. dan realname*realman said the following at 3:41 PM on Aug 22
Hey Ted,
Just as an aside, how soon will I see the almost-certain-to-be-written "Finding God in The Dark Night" or "The Gospel According to The Dark Night" books at my local Christian Bookstore?
34. Kelly said the following at 4:35 PM on Aug 22
I admit, I made the comment of "Batman kills" as a direct comparison to "SATC is pornography".
Because I haven't seen the former so I don't know the truth.
I made a judgement based on articles I'd read rather than the actual content.
Easy to get wrong, huh.
35. Lola said the following at 5:58 PM on Aug 22
Very funny dan realname*realman. I'm not sure if you're being serious or simply ridiculing those who thought of Jesus while watching The Dark Knight. In the case that you are doing the latter. In the defense of those who thought about Jesus while watching The Dark Knight and that of every Christian I say, since Jesus frequently draws our attention, thoughts and experiences back to God, we can't help it:-)
36. Kathryn said the following at 6:05 PM on Aug 22
Mike (#7): This verse popped into mind as I read your comment. "But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." - Hebrews 5:14
I think it applies to the entire discussion. That is, maturity comes by training with good and evil in order that we may distinguish it. So, I'd highly recommend anyone watching the Dark Knight. It doesn't show anything else other than violence to warrant its rating and the themes are fantastic for engaging with and being trained in. As the posts before me can attest to.
Adam (#4): I rather agree with your comment and appreciate point 3, particularly in light with points 1 and 2. I just thought I'd let you know.
37. Elizabeth H. said the following at 6:36 PM on Aug 22
If Heath Ledger hadn't died maybe things would be different. But I can't help feeling that it's disgusting that the Entertainment Industry is making so much money out of this after someone died.
38. Jo said the following at 12:26 AM on Aug 23
Elizabeth: What should the film makers have done instead? Withdrawn the film? Replaced Ledger with another actor? I agree that probably a large part of the film's appeal was initially "See Heath's final performance", but from comments and reviews it sounds like the film is easily good enough to stand on its own as a really great movie.
39. dan real name said the following at 6:21 AM on Aug 23
Lola #35.
Wasn't making fun of anyone watching the movie. Just my little snarky commentary on how many popular movies that come out are eventually followed by a christian book with the afforementioned titles.
40. Mike said the following at 7:41 AM on Aug 23
Elizabeth H. (#37) -
It's interesting you should mention Ledger's death. I was reading an article in People, which indicated, based on conversations with friends and family members, that he had a drug problem going into the film. Although the official cause of death was "accidental prescription drug overdose", there were those close to him who believe the part of Joker contributed to his death - that he immersed himself so deeply in the part that he couldn't escape.
Perhaps that's a lesson for all of us tempted to dabble in darkness.
41. Katie P. said the following at 3:45 PM on Aug 23
I think an important thing to remember when discussing movies like this is that it is largely a matter of personal conviction. I went to see the movie and literally felt sick to my stomach and was overwhelmed with a sense that I should not be watching it. I regret that I did not walk out, and definately will not see it again. That being said, I totally understand that my conviction is between me and the Spirit, and does not necessarily apply to anyone else.
I don't know quite how to say this, but I think it would be nice if people would hold to their own convictions, and not try to make others feel like a less developed believer because they choose to attend/abstain from seeing movies like this that are somewhat "gray." Although your arguments may be convincing, keep in mind that you may be going directly against the voice of the Spirit that has already spoken to that person.
42. a sister said the following at 8:51 PM on Aug 23
I saw the Dark Knight on Thursday. I would see it again. This is an excellent movie. It is widely thematic and it resists the moral ambiguity of our time.
Honestly, I think a lot of believers get very confused about "whatever is good" etc.
Concentrating on the good does not mean that we never look at evil. It means we don't celebrate it -- we see evil accurately -- as evil.
The Dark Knight makes evil look very ugly. Other movies celebrate evil -- or make it look morally neutral.
One movie portrays adultery -- we are supposed to sympathize with an adulterer because of her abusive husband. In another, it looks horrible -- we see its destructive effects and we cringe and take warning.
Evil, shown to be evil, can be good for our souls.
Simone Weil said: "Nothing is so beautiful and wonderful, nothing is so continually fresh and surprising, so full of sweet and perpetual ecstasy, as the good. No desert is so dreary, monotonous and boring as evil. With fictional good and evil it is the other way around. Fictional good is boring and flat, while fictional evil is varied and intriguing, attractive, profound, and full of charm."
The film or book that can make evil ugly and good attractive does its job well.
43. jen said the following at 10:57 PM on Aug 23
Kathryn (#36): You said that, “maturity comes by training with good and evil in order that we may distinguish it.”
In which bible do you find this advice??
The Bible tells us to purify our hearts. To resist the devil by fleeing from temptation. To avoid even the appearance of wrongdoing. NOT to train ourselves with "good AND EVIL." (??!!)
Jesus specifically said that the Pure in Heart will see God. He did Not say, “Go observe nihilistic violence in order to learn the difference between good and evil.”
Instead, He said to Guard your heart.
The Bible tells us that, as Christians, we are to strive to have the mind of Christ.
You don’t mature yourself into having the mind of Christ, by exposing yourself to a several-hour study of imaginary evil.
Yes, we are to resist the devil, to resist evil. IF The Joker turned real, and turned up at your doorstep – your job as a Christian would be to resist him by.. hhmmm.. turning the other cheek?? To – let’s see – trust in Jesus well enough to walk through whatever pain might come our way. Knowing that in the end we will be going home to heaven.
So WHY “recommend” any Christian waste their time on this movie, which portrays a hell on earth?
Sure, you might choose to go see it. I’m not saying Christians can’t go to movies. The Bible tells us that all things are permissible, even though not all are profitable.
The problem comes when Christians claim Spiritual Value in watching evil movies. You’re deceiving yourselves! Even worse, you’re leading yourselves astray - and probably others too!
The Bible does Not say we will “mature” ourselves – nohow, noway – by sitting in comfy chairs, safe and secure and well-fed, while we Enjoy watching mayhem and pointless destruction of bodies, souls, and buildings.
Instead, the Bible tell us that whatever ACTUAL troubles, actual trials and tribulations that God allows us, those are how God will test & mature our faith.
Meaning that, perhaps I should turn the other cheek when my co-worker mocks me for not keeping up-to-date with popular movies. Then, perhaps, if someday God allows a bad guy to grab me as a hostage, perhaps by then I will have matured enough, had enough turn-the-cheek practice, to do the same in a worse situation.
Or, perhaps I should practice Not Taking Offense over small things. Then perhaps if, someday, God chooses to test me by allowing an an injury to my face, perhaps I will have enough Christian Maturity to trust God. And to forgive. Peacefully. With grace and even, perhaps, Real, caring, love for my enemy.
Perhaps, someday, I will trust God all the way. Trust Him even in the most difficult things – real boredom, real pain, and real hardships. (With no “Batman” swooping in to punch out the badguys). THAT would be real Christian Maturity. And, I’m sorry, but there’s no way that watching “Batman” will get me there.
Sure, go see this movie, and enjoy it. If that’s what you want to do, it’s your 2 ½ hours. It’s your $10.
But – stop deceiving yourselves! Stop trying to claim spiritual value for watching a violent, nihilistic movie. You are not going to walk out of that movie matured in your Christ-like faith, nor any better equipped to share the gospel, than when you went in.
44. Katrece said the following at 3:45 PM on Aug 24
Amen post #36!
Yes, I liked Batman and will see it again. There are spiritual themes... I want to just focus this posting on post #36. I totally agree with you.
In post #36 you wrote Heb. 5:14. That verse is preceded by an amazing, compelling description of Jesus' sacrifice for anyone who chooses to believe Him (verses 1-8). (You didn't say this, but to clarify my position- no, I don't think Batman is a perfect, complete display of Christ's sacrifice for us.)
BUT
After the Hebrews author's writing of Christ's work/sacrifice for us, there are key verses which continue to set the context for Heb. 5:14 (the last verse of the chapter).
Heb. 5:11-14: "We have much to say about this; but it is hard to explain because you are so slow to learn. In fact, though by this time some of you should be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."
I totally agree with post #36. That, "solid food" doesn't come from watching movies to try and figure out what is righteous. This chapter shows (as part of our relationship with Christ) we eat solid food, and continue to mature, by progressing in our understanding, and application, of God's word.
THEN we are able to go see Black Knight discerning the light from the dark. Through understanding God's descriptions of righteousness, we can better glean things from the movie that will strengthen our walk with the Lord. It's hard to be strengthened, if we don't know what the truth is.
45. Tami said the following at 8:03 PM on Aug 24
I know you're not being serious, dan real name (33), but your calling the film "The Dark Night" (instead of "The Dark Knight") made me wonder if the film's writer(s) were trying to make some sort of allusion to the "dark night of the soul."
Maybe, maybe not. But hmm.
But don't worry, I won't write a small group discussion guide for it. :)
46. BB said the following at 8:14 AM on Aug 25
You didn't see Batman cut off a hand for stealing. Or kill a man for killing. Justice calls for a much stiffer punishment therefore one might say breaking the legs of a mass murderer is actually softer then what is allowed in some countries. I think most will agree there is too much grace in the courts today. Even an infinitely patient God has His limits in applying grace. When we sin over and over, sometimes God allows consequences so that we can finally learn. How about an example? How many would drive the speed limit if you knew you would never get a ticket?
Just something to think about.
47. Elizabeth S. said the following at 12:00 PM on Aug 25
Almost anything I could say has been covered by someone else, but I'll put my 2 cents' worth in anyway.
Katie, I agree that we shouldn't judge others in gray areas, either for watching or abstaining from movies.
I would not say that I "enjoyed" The Dark Knight. I was impressed, but it depicted evil far too accurately to be fun. I also think that it deserved more than a PG-13 rating. Even if it did not show all the violence, it was intense. In fact the worst scene for me showed nothing for most of it than the Joker holding a knife and talking.
I think younger people or those who do not like such intensity should not see this movie. However, those who are less troubled can watch and learn from it.
After watching the movie, when I began thinking of the Joker as Satan, the movie actually served to galvanize my spiritual life. I had grown complacent, and a view of real evil helped me to remember the stakes and turn back to God.
I think the article did well not to give a clear answer, since it will vary by person. It is important to know where your own boundaries are, so that you can know whether a given film will help or harm you.
48. BDB said the following at 1:06 PM on Aug 25
BB (#46) wrote:
>>breaking the legs of a mass murderer is actually softer then what is allowed in some countries. <<
Heck, it's softer that the Old Testament
See Numbers 35:9-34, which distinguishes between accidental manslaughter, deliberate murder, murder in anger, and the "avenger of blood," who is NOT the police; but a family member taking justice into his own hands. Note that in the Old Testament, vengence is permitted.
49. Craig M. said the following at 8:13 PM on Aug 25
Jen....you think a Christian's responsibility if a mass-murdering torturer showed up at his doorstep would be to lay there and accept torture and death without resistance? So Hitler should not have been opposed either? Or the scourge of Communism? We should think nothing of the dozens, hundreds or thousands who might be tortured or killed after us if we allow "the Joker" to escape us unscathed? Your egregious misunderstanding of what "turn the other cheek" means is mind-blowing.
This is the worst sort of amoral, cowardly foolishness, masquerading as piety. This is why men and women with the courage to fight the evils of the age are put off by the modern Church--because it is filled with people so high on their own righteousness and so in love with the sound of their own voice that they won't deign to actually DO anything requiring initiative and moral clarity.
Let me be clear. Any Christian with the knowledge that a "Joker" is near him has a responsibility to act. Failure to do so is tantamount to cooperation with murder.
50. jen said the following at 6:43 PM on Aug 26
Craig (# 49) wrote:
>>> This is the worst sort of amoral, cowardly foolishness, masquerading as piety.. ..Let me be clear. Any Christian with the knowledge that a "Joker" is near him has a responsibility to act. Failure to do so is tantamount to cooperation with murder. <<<
God’s own word tells us that Jesus – who could have called a thousand angels to overturn the regime of the Romans & Pharisees, instead went like a lamb to the slaughter. He left the Romans in place to rule, knowing full well that a Joker-like Caeser would soon arise and send Many many of His own followers to terrible tortuous deaths.
Yet, He Never instructed His followers to take arms against evil. Instead, He told us to Take Up our Crosses and Follow Him.
Interestingly, belief in Christ spread in part by the witness of His followers, who were willing to Accept Death rather than deny His name. Willing to place their trust in God, knowing they had a Hope and a future No Matter What, and to walk into the Roman arena and sing hymns of praise while being devoured by lions.
But Craig, according to your definition, those martyrs failed. According to you, they had a “responsibility to act.” According to your theory, the martyrs’ lack of struggle would have been “tantamount to murder.”
Batman’s Joker is Evil Personified. He comes to kill and destroy. But you claim that, “Any Christian with the knowledge that a "Joker" is near him has a responsibility to act.” Just exactly how do you think you would have acted to stop him? Are you a police officer, with weapons in your home? Then, perhaps you could try. (Of course, Batman shows us that, against the Joker, even police actions are futile.)
Or perhaps, if a run-of-the-mill, non-joker mass murderer comes to your house, then perhaps you will be able to kill him before he murders any others.
In that case, it’s too bad that Christians like Corrie Ten Boom didn’t keep armaments caches. Too bad they merely decided to hide Jews, rather than somehow finding a Batman to kill Hitler instead. (If I recall correctly, one of her cousins refused to lie even to Nazis, not even to protect her own brother, because she loved & trusted God too much to break His commandment. Thankfully, GOD honored her faith and did the impossible, blinded the SS officers' eyes.) Too bad they realized that what mattered more than anything was obeying God. Too bad they took Jesus’ words seriously.
Because, according to your theology, the ten Boom's failure to protect the world from Adolf H. - or, at least from the mass-murdering nazis in their neighborhood - was somehow “tantamount to mass murder.”
Craig, throw out Jesus’ teachings if you like. Let other Christians do the same.
But please, don’t be a “Joker” yourself! Please, don’t teach others to do the same – to disparage Christ’s clear teachings, of peace and faith and of goodness. Please don’t continue your implicit claim that Christ’s goodness -- His peace and His ways -- are Evil.
51. Marie said the following at 10:18 AM on Sep 1
I agree with Kaufman's article. Just from the film's theatrical trailer I had a dream that The Joker (specifically Heath Ledger's Joker) was chasing me and I knew once he caught me we would hurt me. This dream was more real than most dreams and so was the presence of evil. When the Joker caught me in my dream I woke myself up, I was so afraid. That is the first time I truly felt Satan attacking me through a dream. I am going through a difficult time in my walk with the Lord and I have felt more attacked now than ever before. Satan knows your fears and he prays on you when you are at your weakest spiritually.
I reluctantly went to the movie with my husband, he really wanted to see it. I came away as others who have posted did, not uplifted, but almost depressed. There was not enough light in the darkness in The Dark Knight. And it just goes to show how Satan will use anything he can in our culture to attack Christians.