What If?
by Thomas Jeffries on 07/28/2008 at 4:34 PM
Don't know how many Boundless readers remember this, but there were several days last fall when the Internet was buzzing with the story of a young New York man named Patrick Moberg who had spotted the "girl of his dreams" on the subway. Unfortunately, by the time Moberg got up the nerve to approach her, she disembarked.
Not one to give up too easily, Moberg created a no-frills Web site called NYGirlOfMyDreams.com, in which he sent out a plea for this mystery girl -- or anyone who recognized her based on his inchoate-yet-remarkably-descriptive artwork -- to please, please contact him.
Well, it turns out that the two did eventually meet, and began to date. They turned up on "Good Morning America" and in the pages of Reader's Digest. They were dubbed "the subway sweethearts." But then ... nothing. Mr. Moberg and his dream girl, Camille Hayton, basically vanished from view.
Until now.
The Melbourne Herald Sun -- Hayton is from Australia -- reported yesterday that the pair are no longer a couple. "We dated for a while, but now we're just friends," Hayton said. They went out for about two months, she revealed, but apparently nothing serious resulted.
When Suzanne first referenced Moberg's unorthodox approach, Boundless readers were split. Some thought his actions were cute and inventive. Others lamented the fact that men today have more excuses than ever to approach potential dates via e-mail, text or Web (Facebook, MySpace) instead of on the phone or in person. Simply put, many guys have concluded that it's easier to stomach rejection when it doesn't happen in real time.
The whole thing reminds me of a high school buddy whose dating philosophy was easier said than implemented. His foolproof plan: Ask out 10 girls on a date, and at least one of them is bound to say yes. It sounded reasonable at the time -- remember, this was high school -- though I never knew anyone, including my buddy, who put it into practice. That's probably because, even if a guy can actually name 10 girls he'd like to date at any given time, how many rejections can one man take before he calls off the plan in despair? Two? Three? Five? How many guys, like Patrick Moberg, have trouble even making it to one simply because the potential for failure is so daunting?
At least Camille Hayton gave Moberg a chance, despite the extremely public nature of their introduction. "The situation was so intense that we bonded in a way that you could mistake for being more romantic than it was," Hayton said. "But I wanted to give it a go, so I wouldn't later wonder, 'What if, what if?'."
True, the "subway sweethearts" didn't pan out. But if Hayton had never said yes, would she have always wondered "What if?" How many women today reject potential suitors, either via e-mail or face to face, without ever asking themselves "What if?"
And how many men have simply stopped asking after one rejection too many?
What if, indeed.
1. BDB said the following at 5:07 PM on Jul 28:
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Say - there's another practical problem with e-mail: the SPAM folder.
It's surprisingly easy to have one's e-mail address tagged as SPAM. For example, sending out a mass e-mail appeal for prayer on a missions trip, using the BCC function, can trigger the automated system dumping your e-mails.
So, it may not be that she's not interested, or that he's not interested...check your SPAM folder...
2. Craig M. said the following at 5:57 PM on Jul 28:
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I have no objection to using the internet, etc., as one tool in the process of dating. It pays to cast a wide net. What is pathetic, though, is when men are utterly dependent on technological, impersonal means to get dates. The analysis above is perfectly correct--they do it because it's easy, because any possible rejection is also impersonal and not deeply or publicly felt. But relying so much on technological fora for romance results in a dimunition of charm and confidence. By all means, use the internet as one tool among many, but have the courage to walk up to that girl and try to charm her in person too. Fear not! I've found that, as my perspective has evolved, I'm as proud of myself for making the "dangerous" approach when it fails as when it succeeds. Look guys--chances are you and the object of your desire are not meant to be. She won't be attracted to you, or you'll have a few dates and one of you will graciously back away. But...but...MAYBE NOT. You'll never know unless you take the risk, and you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
3. khalil said the following at 6:29 PM on Jul 28:
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The whole asking person out on a date via email, facebook, sms, etc sounds pretty cowardly to me. If you want the date, be a man and ask for it...in person, at least that is my opinion. The process of asking people out until one accepts sounds rather desperate and superficial. I had an acquaintance that used such a method. It eventually got him a wife, but I know he developed quite a reputation among the young ladies (again, desperate and needy were words and comments used to described his actions).
In my opinion the "what if" question opens a door to much heartache. What if it works out initially but fails in the long term. The questions posed are then, "what if...I had done xxx differently?" Everyone wants the Romantic, storybook, movie ending but reality doesn't always lend itself to such novelty.
As someone who has taken risks (some successful and some not so successful) in relationships, I think I am more prone to avoid the heartache, internal drama, and "what if's" by just remaining single and accepting bachelorhood. If it means I am a bachelor for life, so be it. I have no pressing need or desire to be married anyway.
4. randy said the following at 7:26 PM on Jul 28:
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This is really a debate? I don't understand: why is making rejection easier to take a bad thing? By that same logic it seems indoor plumbing is a bad thing, since it makes going to the bathroom too easy.
5. Mike said the following at 7:52 PM on Jul 28:
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The "ask 10 girls" plan reminds me of something from the book "Marriable", by Michael and Haley DiMarco. It's a suggested cure for getting over the "don't want to be rejected" fear. Here's what they say:
Imagine that someone would give you an unlimited supply of $1 bills, on the condition that the only use to which you could put them was to play the lottery. Now, the vast majority of the time, when you plunk down one of those dollars, you're going to lose, right? But eventually, one of them is going to pan out - you're going to win. And you only have to win once.
Asking girls out for dates is a lot like that. It costs you virtually nothing to ask. If you're rejected, ask the next girl. Eventually, one of them is going to say "yes". You have an unlimited supply of "asks". Each one costs you nothing, because you've been given them for free.
Yeah, okay, rejection's not fun. But look at it this way: If you don't ask, you're essentially rejecting yourself. Are you saying you're not worth her attention? Why don't you let her make that decision?
6. Katie P. said the following at 9:48 PM on Jul 28:
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In response to Mike (#5), I would argue that asking girls out is virtually nothing like playing the lottery with $1 bills. First of all, if any girl found out that she was considered one in an "unlimited supply" of potential dates, she will not be too flattered. Realistically, there is a cost to this approach, which increases with the number of girls you ask, since girls talk to each other and will eventually will figure out what is going on, and said gentleman will develop quite a reputation. Unless you are constantly hopping around to different groups of girls all the time, which is just shady. :)
7. AP said the following at 9:58 PM on Jul 28:
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I've got to give the guy credit for one thing: "HE ASKED!" Many guys stop prior to asking. They just admire from afar.
I guess that I appreciate it that he asked because. I've been to the point of a DTR with a "guy friend" of a few years at which I got a NOT interested after over a month of "consideration". So here I am, waiting to be asked! So guys, please ask because as Mike in Post #5 said, it only takes one to say yes to change your life :)
8. Chase said the following at 10:06 PM on Jul 28:
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From experience and talking to other men I believe that fear of rejection is the greatest impediment in decisively asking women out. Often, he looks for signals from the woman of interest and seeks consultation from his friends, which are wise actions but lead to hurt and sin when taken to the excessive. I sometimes think it is our fallen nature that turns the simple decision of asking another woman out into a complicated intricate process. Instead of prolonging the decision to make sure all the stars align and riding a wave of emotions as he ponders, "What if?", he needs to act by asking her out. Whether her answer is "yes" or "no" he will finally find comfort. If she says, "yes", then great, the friendship can move into a relationship. If she says, "no", the rejection will hurt and lead to future uncomfortable interactions w/ her. However, it will be a good reminder of how poor in spirit he is and the need to seek comfort in God, as well as knowing that God is faithful and in time he will reconcile that friendship.
As for being rejected multiple times, it can be discouraging, but I think the first is always the hardest. After that it gets easier because you have experienced the redemptive process of disappointment, suffering and comfort so you know where to go. Of course, that period of suffering differs for each person and experience.
Although I can't speak for the women and their decision making process, during my experiences I have sometimes gotten the answer that it would be best to just "remain friends and see where the God leads it" and ponder what does that really mean. Is it sincere? Were they really undecided? A guy friend's interpretation of that response is that if a woman thinks there is any hint of a possibility that a relationship w/ another man would work they would say "yes". However, because friendships are so important to women they won't give a decisive "no", so men should interpret any other response as really a "no". However, I wonder if my friend gave me this advice so I would move on rather than it being a universal truth. So, I think it is better for a woman to let the guy down with a decisive "no" rather than leaving the guy to continue to wonder "What if?" even after he has made the decision to ask her out.
9. Rachael said the following at 10:27 PM on Jul 28:
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I think "what if" can be a good motivator to accept a date...I've dated only a few people in my 28 years, but I gave someone I didn't know well a chance, and we're in a serious relationship now. I wondered about meeting with him one-on-one for the first time. At the time my sister initally (then she too later wondered...) gave me some advice including to "go for it". And I did end up going for it. It's okay to be open-minded to the possibilities. Not tooooooo open, but, semi-open to the "what ifs"...
10. Richard said the following at 10:45 PM on Jul 28:
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If you really love a woman, you won't give up trying to get her, no matter how many times you have been rejected.
Actually last Wednesday at my cell group the host couple were telling the story of thier courtship, and how he kept courting her for years and years and years until she finally said yes.
If you want her that bad, no number or rejections is too many. Otherwise you love your ego more than you love her.
I once volunteered with a guy whose roommate desparated wanted to get into medical school. This guy kept trying for 8 years - yes 8 years of applying until finally his dream came true and he got in.
If you really are in love, you won't give up on what you love, no number of rejections can stop you.
11. brx said the following at 11:03 PM on Jul 28:
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There seem to be enough uniquely odd stories of relationships working out well after initial rejection that, I think, gives warrant to answering the "what if?" with "hmm, guess I'll try it."
Here's another way to look at it: What happens if you DON'T - go to the bbq, join the activity, call her up, go with him to the concert, etc? Answer: _NOTHING!_
Are you happy with _nothing_?
It's probably good to put some boundaries on those "what-if's" too. I mean, a guy who up and moves to Colorado to chase down a girl in hopes of a relationship... Well, that might be leaning too close to freakish stalking.
Go to events, be social, be inclusive, practice hospitality, don't be a stalker...
Grace, peace & adventure!
12. Cassandra Marie said the following at 12:07 AM on Jul 29:
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In response to Randy's question, its not the "making rejection easier to take" that is the problem. Its what you lose in the process. When you take shortcuts in the name of "making rejection easier to take" you communicate to the girl that she's not worth the risk. I honestly would feel demeaned if a man-- who is supposed to hope to someday marry me and be the the head of the household-- doesn't even have the courage to talk to me face to face. Boys take the easy route of asking online, but if I'm getting into a dating relationship in order to see if I can marry a person (which is the purpose of dating), I want a man, not a boy. Someone who can't even muster the courage to ask me to my face probably isn't able to muster up the courage to stand up for me, to support his family, or stick to his faith. Much like the Bible says, he who is faithful in little will be faithful in much.
13. Matt said the following at 12:40 AM on Jul 29:
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People are seeming to forget that it doesn't end once they go out on a date with you. I think it is more the broken heart associated with breakups that should cause pause about asking out lots of people and not the fear or rejection.
14. Jo said the following at 1:08 AM on Jul 29:
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Post #5 -
Yes, a good philosophy for getting guys over that fear of rejection, but like everything it can be taken too far...
If a guy asks out too many girls, he'll get a rep as someone who simply asks out every available Christian girl he knows. As a girl who knows guys like this, that makes the invitation a little less flattering. Don't be afraid to ask a girl out. But don't ask her out just 'cause she's there.
15. alex said the following at 1:29 AM on Jul 29:
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What is it with guys and the fear of rejection?!? Either you like a girl and respect her or you don't. If you ask her and she says no, you should respect her judgment or try again later. Clearly you don't think much of her if you're not even willing to ASK her on a date. Good grief. Then you go and talk about how scared you are of rejection. Why are you scared of being rejected by a girl you don't respect?!? Ridiculous.
16. khalil said the following at 5:30 AM on Jul 29:
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This isn't making rejection easier, it is avoidance. Avoidance of having to face and deal with rejection on a personal level. That is the problem here. If you're going to avoid the risk and possible pain of rejection then just avoid dating or asking people out in the first place. Hiding behind technology is not a solution to ease rejection.
I disagree that there is no cost in the "Free asks" idea. The cost is rejection. While it is true that some people might get better and handling a "No" the more they ask some guys are likely to stop asking and withdraw. As it has been said, how many times can a person be rejected before they give up? The other cost is the risk of reputation, as I stated before. A guy runs the risk of being seen as a player, as desperate, or pushy, whatever you want to call it. I've seen it happen before, as cited in my previous comment above. The free asks/ask 10 girls out is akin to a saying that my father used to say, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while."
What about the quality and character of the woman? Are men just using this approach to get a date or does the 10 girl/free ask approach involve carefully choosing 10 women to proposition (a date of course, nothing more)? It just seems shallow and adolescent, both approaches.
17. kim davidson said the following at 7:16 AM on Jul 29:
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Why does everyone feel the need to tell me to accept a date with everyone who asks me out. If I have already known the guy in friend setting and know that I don't want anything to happen, based on either attraction (lack of) or character (or lack of) - I shouldn't need to go out on a date with him to find out. Its not a matter of what if, its a matter of where the Good Shepherd leads, wise godly counsel, and not being desparate enough to date everyone who asks you out.
18. a sassy sister said the following at 7:26 AM on Jul 29:
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thomas,
in response to that question about how many guys stop after being turned down, how many girls stop hoping for a guy to ask them out? This problem affects both men and women.
I also want to know thomas, what's worse: Rejection or indifference?
19. Tehilah said the following at 8:08 AM on Jul 29:
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Hey... wait a minute here... what happened to asking God for His will? If we're all playing the lottery with other people's hearts - who will be left standing?
Wouldn't it be wiser to counsel young men to seek God about someone they are interested in and NOT MAKE A MOVE until they hear "go"?
Look, I'm over 30 and waiting for this to happen on some guy's end, but I've had it with putting my heart on the line while hoping someone will be serious enough to commit - something I believe a man should decide way before he asks a girl out. You want to be intentional? Great, but don't leave God's direction behind.
Boy, do I feel old-fashioned
and kind of lost in this "everyone out for their own gain" race.
20. Dan H. said the following at 8:39 AM on Jul 29:
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I like Mike's comment (#5)
"If you don't ask, you're essentially rejecting yourself. Are you saying you're not worth her attention?"
That is so true. If you don't ask it's almost like you're saying you'd prefer to hold on to a fantasy that she might say "yes" rather than actually find out and have to drop the fantasy or, forbid the thought, actually get a date! Yep. The rejection part isn't much fun, I've been there more times that I'd like to count, but asking her right out is loads better than just guessing what might be.
Guys, go out, step up and be men! It's our job and we need to embrace it.
Grace and peace to you all.
21. Read said the following at 9:00 AM on Jul 29:
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In response to #5...
I haven't read Mr. and Mrs. DiMarco's book, but as a student of sociology and psychology I am obligated to point out the flaw in their argument. You don't have an unlimited supply of asks. You are limited by the size of the pool you have to draw from. If you ask out everyone in your pool and everyone rejects you then you have used up your supply of asks and are doomed to being dateless. This is one of the major factors that I believe draw one segment of the population towards social networking and online dating services. It gives people the opportunity to enlarge their pool. When we're in college we have a large pool of new people to draw from. After college the pool basically dries up. I don't blame people for pursuing creation of a new relationship via online means. I think it is merely using a new tool to try and achieve the same goal we've always been striving to achieve. Some of the negative reaction towards online dating is regional bias. Down here in the South young women are steeped in tradition and have certain expectations for how and when a man can approach them. Other places do not possess the same type of social norms and find online dating a perfectly acceptable means of meeting dating partners.
22. Andrea said the following at 9:08 AM on Jul 29:
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Interesting story. I hadn't heard about it until now. Or, if I had, it didn't stand out in my mind immediately.
I have a love/hate relationship with the "what if?" issue. It used to be focused on the past. What if I had done this? What if I hadn't said that? What if he had ______ (fill in the blank)? Those "what ifs" don't really help anything, now, do they? Unless, of course, I'm trying to learn from my mistakes.
Now I'm making a concerted effort to focus on the more positive, future-oriented "what ifs". As in, I don't want to wonder "what if". Instead of hiding behind fear, I'm opening myself up to exploring possibilities in all areas of my life, as God leads.
In a way, I commend Patrick Moberg for exploring his "what if". It resonates more than many more saccharine romance stories. And I commend Camille Hayton for being open to the "what if". Their relationship may not have resulted in a happy ending as traditionally told Hollywood tales, but that's life.
It's a picture of bravery on both their parts. We could use more brave people in our generation.
23. Rachel said the following at 9:11 AM on Jul 29:
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I guess as a girl I look at this differently. I used the internet as a dating tool once to try out dating sites. I found that it was too impersonal, and I couldn't make any connections over something that seemed so cold. It didn't work for me.
I also don't think their is anything wronge with using e-mails and such as a communication tool or as a get to know you tool. But as a cautious female I will only ever respond to people I already know in person. So if I got asked out by e-mail it seems to me that it would be the same as in person.
I always respond with a yes to the first date. No matter what happens I usually already know the person, and then just take the first date as something fun to do.
However I have not been asked out that many times, so guys give it a try. I'm sure there are many more people like me willing to give you a first date.
24. NeedACatchyName said the following at 9:54 AM on Jul 29:
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I'm all for not letting fear of rejection prevent you from asking a girl out, but I have to disagree with some of the posters who seem to be saying that you should continue to pursue a girl even after she's rejected you once. It's been my observation that girls don't like it when you continue to pursue them after they've made it quite clear that they're not interested. Plus doing this too much can get you labeled as the creepy guy who won't leave a girl alone even she makes it clear that she wants to be left alone, and that reputation can really hurt you when pursuing future relationships.
Here's my question though. Right now there's this girl who I'm pursuing. For about the past three weeks, whenever I call her and ask her if she wants to go out, she always has other plans. I then proceed to ask her if she would like to go out some other time or if she'd rather I not call her any more, and she says that she isn't sure. Honestly, I think she's just trying to imply that she isn't interested without directly saying it, but I'm not 100% sure. Should I continue pursuing her, take a hint and realize she isn't interested, or find some way to get a more direct answer our of her, and if this is the case, how would I go about doing that?
25. Mike said the following at 10:08 AM on Jul 29:
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Katie said:
In response to Mike (#5), I would argue that asking girls out is virtually nothing like playing the lottery with $1 bills. First of all, if any girl found out that she was considered one in an "unlimited supply" of potential dates, she will not be too flattered. Realistically, there is a cost to this approach, which increases with the number of girls you ask, since girls talk to each other and will eventually will figure out what is going on, and said gentleman will develop quite a reputation. Unless you are constantly hopping around to different groups of girls all the time, which is just shady. :)
Let's turn this around. What would happen if a guy asked only one girl in his immediate circle, and she turned him down? Or he asked none of them? Wouldn't the others feel slighted? Surely there might be one or more who would have liked to have been asked.
The intent was most assuredly NOT just to ask every female within asking distance. Sorry if that came across. The point was that asking girls IN WHOM YOU ARE INTERESTED carries very little risk. You don't lose anything by asking. That's why you have an "unlimited supply" of "asks"; it's not like you are going to run out of opportunities unless you - as the guy - just start rejecting suitable candidates.
Women on Boundless complain quite frequently about never, or rarely, being asked out. What would happen if guys started asking as if they had nothing to lose by asking? I suspect there'd be a lot fewer lonely people.
26. Khalil said the following at 10:54 AM on Jul 29:
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To # 19...
"Wouldn't it be wiser to counsel young men to seek God about someone they are interested in and NOT MAKE A MOVE until they hear "go"?"
Can't argue about offering Godly counsel, but I don't think in most cases God is going to give us a definite "go" (can you define what you mean by "go"?). I think the go can be implied by other things: is this person a believe, is this person emotionally on your level, do the social and economic backgrounds (and present) work together for both of you, are you sinning or doing something unethical by asking this person out?
There seems to be great freedom in how we can choose a potential date/mate, we have guidelines but no real set rules to follow. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit can't guide us towards or away from a particular person. I can recall one relationship that I was clearly directed away from. I really cared for this young lady, but after much prayer and the prayers of others I had to break it off. I would go as far to say I loved her, but continuing that relationship would have meant me sinning and going against God...it was that clear. I guess what I am trying to say is that we have freedom to ask anyone out within reason, prayer should be a daily part of our lives and how we approach dating too, but I think we can get stuck if we have to pray for *every single thing* (what shoes should I buy, what time should I get up in the morning, etc...we get paralyzed with that sort of thinking).
#19, you also said:
"something I believe a man should decide way before he asks a girl out. You want to be intentional? Great, but don't leave God's direction behind."
I can't argue that we need to be seeking God's direction and would be foolish to leave it behind. I'd like to ask you what you mean by the first part of the statement. Should a guy be ready to marry before he asks a woman out? There is a difference here between dating and going out on a date. The latter can be just purely recreational/social, is that wrong? Personally, I wouldn't want to date (go out on a date, date seriously, however you want to define it) a person unless I could see a potential for marriage. I'd like to know the person over time and in some varied situations before I propose going out. Just my take on it. Again, there is much freedom and not a lot of structure on how we can approach this.
Sorry. I am no trying to come across like I am beating you up here, just offering my view and asking some questions.
27. ryan said the following at 11:07 AM on Jul 29:
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I agree with most of the aforementioned comments encouraging guys to ask girls out in person, regardless of the "risk."
In regards to some other comments, guys rarely ask out girls who know absolutely nothing about them, and I think sometimes a lot of pain can be avoided by the girl saying "no" sooner rather than later. I think girls should give good guys a chance, but if they know upfront that the relationship is unlikely to go anywhere, a polite rejection is actually better than a "what if" date for both parties.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that rejections are sometimes blessings. I recently received a "maybe later" type response from a girl I recently (and admittedly rather ungracefully) approached, and I am almost thankful for that answer. The initial rejection kind of hurt, but now I realize it may be for the better as I have plenty of stuff on my plate for the next several months. In addition, this caused my ego to take a little bit of a hit, which is probably a good thing, and it prompted me to look to God for more guidance, pray more, work out a little harder, reexamine my priorities, etc.
So basically, even though I didn't get the exact answer I was hoping for, I am glad I took the risk and I will gladly do it again.
28. Michelle Friesen said the following at 11:08 AM on Jul 29:
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You all have been discussing men risking rejection, but my brother gave me some advice the other day that if you want something to happen with a guy, sitting around won't get you anywhere. Now, I can see his logic. If there is no way for a guy to know I'm interested, how would he possibly get the idea to ask me out? I would have to be overt in the messages I send him or ask to hang out with him myself. What do you think?
29. Tami said the following at 12:29 PM on Jul 29:
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NeedACatchyName (24), when you ask her out, are you asking about doing something *that same night,* or are you asking (say) on a Thursday if she's free on Saturday (in other words, trying to set a specific date)?
If it's the former, you might try asking her out in advance, for a specific date and time, a week or so in advance. That might call her bluff. If she's interested, she'll agree (or offer another date and time that works); she might just be "testing" you to see if you're willing to actually make plans in advance (because a pattern of calling at the last minute can lead to an impression of "I've got nothing better to do; do you want to meet up with me?"). If she won't accept a date in the future (or offer an alternative time), then I'd say yeah, she's being kind of lame and non-upfront with you about her disinterest, and I'd say, let her go.
If it's the latter, I'd ask her one more time if there's a time and date she *is* free to do some specific activity of your choice. If she says yes, when you go out, I'd have an upfront (but low-pressure) conversation with her about how she views your relationship. If she still hems and haws, I'd move on. You've done her the honor of being clear, but she's not giving you the same respect in return.
30. BDB said the following at 12:40 PM on Jul 29:
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Alex (#15) wrote:
>>Either you like a girl and respect her or you don't. <<
No...the other possibility is that you don't know her at all, so you don't yet know if you like and/or respect her.
This is why it is easier to meet people in college: lots of unstructured time. You can walk into the lobby of a dorm and have an hour-long conversatin with a person sitting there, and it's not a big deal. If you try that in the real world, you'll likely get in trouble for keeping someone from their work.
In fact, as a manager, I once had to warn a couple to knock off the constant conversations when he hourly employee was supposed to be working. They got married last year.
31. jeni said the following at 1:55 PM on Jul 29:
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My general rule of thumb is - take a chance. Which means I generally say yes to a first date request. It takes courage for the man to ask, he's taking that risk. I figure I should follow in kind and say yes. It's risky. It may not work....but it may! It's easy to miss some great people by relying on first impressions and being hindered by what we consider to be our "type". It's also just fun to get to know people. If it happens that the date turns out not to be "the one", getting to know people can lead to new circles of friends, new acquaintances, new people to meet and eventually your spouse. Now, in all honesty, following the take-a-chance rule of thumb, I've been on some pretty lame dates. The ultra-lame ones have become requested party stories, so all is not lost. I have also had the opportunity to meet and to know some really great men that I never would have had I stayed in my comfort zone and hid from the bad "what ifs". All in all though my dating life is sometimes overwhelming and disappointing; I've learned a lot about God, others and myself which then has developed a more solid confidence in myself and my Creator. So, why not take a chance?
32. Mike said the following at 2:30 PM on Jul 29:
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Michelle Friesen had the following to say on Jul 29 at 11:08 AM:
If there is no way for a guy to know I'm interested, how would he possibly get the idea to ask me out? I would have to be overt in the messages I send him or ask to hang out with him myself. What do you think?
Well, there are two sides to this argument. The one side is the "guys don't pick up on subtle signals very well" point...which is valid. The other side is the "guys like to be the pursuer, not the pursued" argument...which is also valid. (Confusing to be a woman, isn't it? Don't you wish men weren't so opaque?)
I'd say, in general, that you do have to give a guy some indication that you're interested. Because, let's face it, we men just don't do hints very well. (It's a natural woman talent, but not one with which the Father saw fit to grace the male of the species.) But it needs to stop short of being the one to ask him out - because that deprives him of the thrill of the chase. (And, incidentally, deprives you of the self-validation that comes from being pursued.)
So I think the first part - sending messages - is important. You can do this by simply acting interested. When in his presence, ask him about his interests. (Which, incidentally, is also an excellent way of determining whether or not there's something substantive there.) Smile at him. Make eye contact. Stand closer to him than to other guys. These are signals that say, "I enjoy your presence." And, yes, I know these probably qualify as "hints", but consistently applied, even we thick-headed males will eventually pick up on them.
However, I think it's probably better to stay away from asking him out. A guy might like that at first, but it ends up setting a bad tone for the relationship. If you ask him out, who plans the date? If you plan the date, do you pay? As the woman, you're taking on all the responsibilities that you really want him to shoulder. Where does it end? Do you carry him across the threshold? :-)
33. Katie P. said the following at 6:38 PM on Jul 29:
33
Mike,
Thanks for your clarification in post #25, I think I understand where you are coming from a lot better. I definately agree with you that men in general should take risks when it comes to asking girls out, and if a guy is interested in a girl and believes that God has given him the "ok" to begin pursuing, then by all means, he should ask her out!
To answer your question concerning girls feeling "slighted" if a guy in her circle only asks out one girl, or no one at all, I would actually say that most girls would have no problem with that. It would be better than asking all of the girls in his circle (or worse, all but one), that would just send off "desperate" signals. At least from my perspective, I would never want a guy who wasn't interested in me to feel like he "should" ask me out just because I am available; I would rather he not ask me at all. But that could be just me!
34. Beatrice81 said the following at 7:06 PM on Jul 29:
34
I'm with you, Michelle. Frankly, I'm not really into making a fetish of who asked who first. It seems rather rigid and pointless.
If I'm interested in someone, I'll make it clear. If an admirer notices me first, I'll expect them to signal their interest. I'm not interested in playing coy or engaging in little games where I pretend to be passive -- as you can probably guess, passivity is not my style.
Dating is already a somewhat artificial circumstance -- I'm certainly not going to add to the artificiality by adopting silly behaviors in order to fit someone else's gender stereotypes.
To thine ownself be true.
35. Henry said the following at 7:33 PM on Jul 29:
35
Wow, powerful post, Mr. Jeffries. Powerful indeed.
36. Rachael said the following at 8:14 PM on Jul 29:
36
NeedA.... (#24),
Could you wait awhile (maybe a week or a month[s]) and then ask her again later? Sounds like you've been calling her a lot. If you don't know her much and you wait awhile then ask her later, perhaps she'd be closer to a clearer answer, unless she doesn't want to hurt you and consequently gives wishy-washy answers.
If she is interested in going on a date with you, the reasons she might be unsure might be lack of knowing you well, schedule issues (if she's really busy), etc...but it seems that if she was truly interested that she'd be more open to the "maybe later" bit, unless perhaps she has other life/personal issues going on right now.
If she is not ultra-conservative, my guess is that her wishy-washiness is a "No, I'm sorry, but I don't want to hurt you by telling you NO." If she is ultra-conservative, her not knowing might be genuinely unsure.
Guess this is not at all helpful, but, just in case...
37. Rachael said the following at 8:17 PM on Jul 29:
37
NeedACatchyName,
P.S. An idea of something to do if you don't know her well: ask one more time if she'd like to go out (on a specific day, etc.), and if you again get turned down, ask again about sometime in the future. If again she says she's unsure, maybe indicate that you may call her later or give her some time and then truly just give her some time...
Just an idea.
Best!
38. typical girl (I think so, anyway.) said the following at 11:10 PM on Jul 29:
38
I don't understand what the problem is with guys asking a girl out via technology. Actually, I've only been asked out for a first date in person once, and I never felt it was demeaning for a guy not to risk the rejection in person. I know they're taking a risk, and if asking via phone or text makes it less intimidating for them, so be it. (I will say, an email or Facebook message or something of that sort does seem a little less personal!)
39. Kate said the following at 8:16 AM on Jul 30:
39
I've been asked out only once online, and let me tell you it was definitely the most absurd and misplaced invitation I have ever received - not due to its being online per se but more due to the circumstances.
This guy I went to high school with, over 5 years after I had actually seen him in person or even had a conversation with him sent me a message on facebook asking me on a date in a completely different city from where I was living. This was not 2 days after I was listed as "single" after being in a long-term relationship. This was before there was the news feed that announced such things, so it was also creepy that he noticed so quickly! (I of course declined and have never wondered "what if?").
I wonder if most internet invitations are misplaced and inappropriate like this rather than considerate and well-placed?
If I were single, I would be intrigued by a guy who made such an effort as the subway observer, and would have at least seen what he was about. I don't remember hearing about this story at all!
40. obewan said the following at 9:12 AM on Jul 30:
40
Katie #6 says:
“>>First of all, if any girl found out that she was considered one in an "unlimited supply" of potential dates, she will not be too flattered. Realistically, there is a cost to this approach, which increases with the number of girls you ask, since girls talk to each other and will eventually will figure out what is going on, and said gentleman will develop quite a reputation.<<”
Isn’t that just an example of insecurity on the part of women? Such an attitude I have seen my past experiences, and it leaves me feeling like men can’t win sometimes. As has been said already, too many women complain about not being asked out. (The translation usually means no men they are INTERETSTED in have asked.)
Once, my roommates and I had a tradition of inviting 3 different girls a month to a gourmet meal at our house – with no strings attached, and no one paired off. We went through something like 15-20 women at our church. When we got to the fat ugly women (since we wanted to include all sisters equally) we were rejected. Our invitation was refused with criticism and comment that we were just ‘parading the cattle through for inspection”. On the other hand, when the word got around, I had a few attractive women approach me and ask when they were going to get their invitation. I suppose it had to do more with my cooking skills than anything else, but we told the last one that we had discontinued the tradition and she went away disappointed.
I have also attended singles groups in churches where the women simply refused to participate. If a woman won’t make herself available to potential suitors in a safe group social setting where people can get acquainted with no pressure, they why should she be surprised if a man takes the only other alternative and asks her out for a casual cup of coffee?
I think this criticism really depends on the expectations and manner of approach of the male. I mean, if a man treats a woman like a sister with respect and does not ‘hit’ on her during the invitation process, then what is the problem? Maybe leaving no stone unturned in the search for a mate is the right one, and is ‘intentional’ as Boundless would suggest.
41. Michelle said the following at 9:14 AM on Jul 30:
41
In response to Mike (#32), acting interested is all well and good, but what if the only way a girl could get know said guy of interest would be to casually ask him out for, say, coffee? That is hardly a date, but merely a means to get to know the guy, and then, if he was interested, he could take it to the next level. This might be necessary if their social circles don't intersect at any level. What do you think?
42. Jo said the following at 10:59 AM on Jul 30:
42
Michelle (#41): That's when you look them up on Facebok. ;)
43. Mike said the following at 11:24 AM on Jul 30:
43
Michelle -
Is asking a guy for coffee when you're interested a date? Well....let's see. It's a one-on-one social interaction, between parties of the opposite sex, at least one of whom has a romantic interest in the other.
Sounds a lot like a date to me.
Now, I'll readily admit, this is a really hard area for a woman. But sometimes it's necessary to do hard things if we're trying to be Godly. For guys, it means asking and risking rejection. For girls, it means learning not to take initiative away from men and letting them learn how to lead.
Perhaps in a situation such as the one you describe - where the two parties' circles don't really intersect - a good possibility would be to use the services of a mentor, perhaps a married couple who might be able to suggest to the young man that he ask you out. Maybe there's a friend of a friend? Or maybe the pastor at the church could arrange something. Although matchmaking is seen as ludicrously quaint by some these days, it has a lot of merit.
44. Adam D. said the following at 11:32 AM on Jul 30:
44
In response to #10, I disagree.
I think that if you truly love someone you will actually remove yourself from their life if they don't want or need you, or express any desire to continue something with you. If someone doesn't want you around, and you're rejected, respect that and remove yourself. Dust off your shoes and go somewhere else and meet someone who won't reject you right off the bat.
Maybe those persistent types prevail, but maybe it's because you just eventually wear down a person's resistance, and if no one else is dating them during that entire process, and they don't meet any other potentials that they are attracted to, then yes, they may settle for the persistent person. This is just my opinion of course, but I completely disagree with the annoying, she-can't-reject-me, attitude. To me it just sounds even more selfish because you want that person for yourself, but then again if you love that person, you will let them go and let them enjoy their life with someone else that they will love and cherish.
45. Mike said the following at 12:00 PM on Jul 30:
45
Adam -
In general, I agree with your line of thinking, with one caveat: Circumstances change. The reasons she rejected today may not exist in a few months. Just something to think about.
46. Tami said the following at 12:44 PM on Jul 30:
46
I agree with Mike (45).
I would add that there's a difference between stepping aside and allowing her the space while still remaining in her circle... and trying to *persuade* her that you're destined to be a couple. The former is a natural part of a growth process (for *both* of you); the latter is annoying and futile, because (as both Adam and Mike recognize) *you* can't change someone's heart. Ultimately, that's between God and the other person.
47. BDB said the following at 1:48 PM on Jul 30:
47
Michelle (#41) wrote:
>>This might be necessary if their social circles don't intersect at any level. What do you think?<<
Yes, it's something to consider. There are at least six different sets of rules on approaching marriage, including three Christian ones. This creates plenty of confusion.
Keep in mind that unless a guy knows about Boundless, has read Elisabeth Elliot, or is from the South, he might not know that he's supposed to take the initiative. This is complicated by the fact that non-Christian women are taught to take initiative by everything from Oprah magazine to Reality TV like The Bachelor. It's easy to get into the habit of assuming that women who are interested will extend invitations. Heck, he might be a Christian wondering why the only women extending invitations are non-Christians.
I wouldn't recommend going beyond coffee, though. That's enough time to find out if someone's a Christian. If you're going to do it, don't talk about your "feelings." Be sure to work into the conversation what your calling is. Ask him what his is. Then it's up to him to move forward.
And, if nothing else, you can always turn it into a "work" client-prospecting conversation.
48. BDB said the following at 1:58 PM on Jul 30:
48
Rachael (#36) wrote:
>>If she is ultra-conservative, her not knowing might be genuinely unsure.<<
To clarify, do you mean conservative as in a practicing Christian vs. a political conservative?
49. BDB said the following at 2:14 PM on Jul 30:
49
Though Jo (#42), it helps if you know where they went to college.
For example, there are more than 93 "Jo's" in the U.K. on facebook...
50. Katie P. said the following at 6:43 PM on Jul 30:
50
Obewan (comment 40), I think your idea of inviting different girls over to dinner was a great one! It sounds like it is providing a great way for guys and girls to get to know each other in a low-pressure situation. It seems to me like the "fat, ugly" women were overreacting, maybe some of them were not used to casual, co-ed situations and misinterpreted things.
As far as my claim that guys who ask out a lot of girls get a certain reputation, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with it. However, I'm not at all talking about the situation you just described, but one where the guy intentionally asks multiple girls to pursue a relationship. Maybe you're right and it is because girls are insecure, but I would would feel like a guy like this is more interested in having The Relationship than he is in being with me.
51. Rachael said the following at 8:24 PM on Jul 30:
51
BDB (48),
"Ultra-conservative" was a poor choice in words on my part.
I guess my opinion is that if a gal has been asked on dates or is open to going on dates with someone, if she responded wishy-washily, it probably means NO.
If a girl is pretty unexperienced, has no one to ask for advice (or people who are telling her not to go on one-on-one dates), or was hoping more for the friendship turned courtship model, she may say "I don't know" about a "maybe later" offer and genuinely not know.
It seems some people are more open and comfortable casually meeting with people of the opposite sex than others, so the ones who might not be as comfortable with the idea might genuinely be unsure about accepting a date from someone she doesn't know well.
52. Leah said the following at 11:40 PM on Jul 30:
52
Richard- most of the time, you don't love the woman BEFORE asking her out. Asking and accepting her 'no' can quite simply be respecting her decision and moving on. Love generally comes months after the initial 'yes'.
Michelle Friesen- you can definitely be proactive, but that doesn't mean taking the initiative and asking him out! You can use your own initiative to show interest while still leaving the actual instigation of the relationship up to him. Maybe if there's a bunch of people going to have lunch together, or going to see a movie, you can let him know he's welcome to join in.
For example: I have a friend who currently has her eye set on a particular guy at church. And I know she wouldn't mind me saying she's hopelessly head over heels! But she's also the very conservative daughter of a Presbyterian minister and is NOT going to actually ask the guy herself. However, she's definitely sending the right signals! She smiles and purposely initiates conversations with him; when she was organising a bunch of people to go to the movies, she included him; when she and her cousins were having an all-nighter to watch the football, they invited him; when we go out for dinner after church he always comes; if she's bored on a saturday night and SMSes people to come over, she'll include him... etc etc! She has been so obviously blatant there is no way he can't know she's interested... she's privately given him 2 weeks to make a move and if he doesn't, she's going to "stop throwing (herself) at him!"
53. Jo said the following at 12:21 AM on Jul 31:
53
BDB - Ah but I'm assuming if you've met them you probably know their surname and what they looks like... which makes finding them a whole lot easier!
Mike / Adam - I think if you've been turned down once, you usually need to wait for some pretty strong signals that she's changed her mind. But I certainly don't think you need to bow out of her life, you can stick around, get to know her better, show your maturity by *not* running away just 'cause she doesn't want to date you... and yeah, she might have a change of heart. But if she already knows you're interested, she will probably make it clear if she does.
And I am half-serious about the Facebook thing, from a female point of view - it's not 'initiating', it sends the message that you wouldn't mind getting to know the guy better, it allows you to do just that in a casual environment - and if he is interested, it might be the encouragement he needs to pursue you. I know we're all down on Facebook but it does have its uses.
54. Tami said the following at 9:07 AM on Jul 31:
54
I echo Katie P. (50) -- it's uncomfortable when you feel that the guy is pursuing you simply because you're available and you're there, rather than because he likes you or is attracted to you, in particular. Being "hit" by the scattershot approach, or desperation, is not the most flattering thing, and is quite the *opposite* of intentionality.
If a woman's insecurity truly *was* at play, I would say it was because the woman was judging the guy based on others' opinions, and not her own experience of him. To refuse a date with a (overall decent) guy because he didn't pass your girlfriends' test is superficial. OTOH, if they had gone out with him and noticed a *character* flaw that ruled him out as a decent guy (i.e., it was obvious he was a player, or that he was dating several women in order to boost his own self esteem), I think it's fair for the girl to refuse a date based on her friends' assessment.
I would also qualify obewan's dinner parties as intentional -- in the sense that, even though they weren't "dates" per se, they were intentionally designed to be an informal/semiformal way for the guys to get to know the girls in the group in a smaller setting.
55. Tami said the following at 10:32 AM on Jul 31:
55
I dunno, Jo -- there have been a few times I've done a search on Facebook, and found like 50 people with my friend's first *and* last names. And if you don't know where they live (lost touch after school) or if they don't list it, or if they have, like, a cartoon character or a painting for a personal photo, that makes it even harder. ;) and :)
Overall, though, it is *generally* easy to find people, especially if you know them well enough to have their email, or if they're friends of friends.
And I do agree; Facebook seems to be a really easy way of coordinating events with big groups of people. Still not sure if I'd want that to be the way a first date was initiated, however.
56. BDB said the following at 12:45 PM on Jul 31:
56
Rachael (#51) wrote:
>>so the ones who might not be as comfortable with the idea might genuinely be unsure about accepting a date from someone she doesn't know well. <<
OK, that's kind of what I thought you meant.
Those who hope to marry their best friend can seem vexed when faced with a casual-dating is recreational fun person...
On to Facebook...
I'm pretty new to this Facebook thing. My sister and various other family members have gotten into it. One thing I notice right off the bat is that some people are clearly not Christians - what with throwing various alcoholic drinks at each other all the time. It's kind of nice to find that out up front.
I'm trying to decide if I should be intimidated by someone who has 436 friends...
57. Jo said the following at 1:24 PM on Jul 31:
57
BDB,
Not intimidated... healthily skeptical perhaps. :P I have a silly number, but many of mine are people I haven't seen since primary school. The only reason I keep letting them add me is because I use Facebook to promote my music, so the more people that have access to it the better!
Tami,
Yeah - I really meant the kinda situation Michelle described, if you met someone who seemed cool, but your paths wouldn't cross again naturally in 'real life'. In that scenario, I sometimes use Facebook as a casual way of initiating further contact without initiating A Date. Hasn't got me a husband yet though. :)
58. Rachael said the following at 9:28 AM on Aug 1:
58
BDB (56),
But it's possible for someone who would like to marry a best friend to try the date-a-person-you-don't-know- that-well approach. Sure the person might feel more insecure and increased wonderings, but, it's possible.
59. Tami said the following at 10:12 AM on Aug 1:
59
I'm totally with BDB (56) on this. I am a "marry your best friend" type, and I don't get the whole "dating is for fun" thing. I've learned to be really, really careful about noticing who's who ("dating is for marriage exploration" v. "dating is for fun") -- and (probably) as a result, I don't date a whole lot.
For me... Group outings are fun. Parties are fun. If a guy wants to get to know me before making a decision to date me... well, I love doing things in groups. I'd prefer that he invite me out with his friends until he's a little more ready to date me one on one.
I don't want a proposal on the first date; just a little awareness that the guy is open to being open to exploring marriage *in general*, at least.
60. BDB said the following at 8:19 PM on Aug 1:
60
Tami (#59) wrote:
>>well, I love doing things in groups. I'd prefer that he invite me out with his friends until he's a little more ready to date me one on one. <<
Hmmm...that might present a small tactical challenge. It seems like the most common "group" is the "everything is fun" group - you might not make any progress with someone like that.
A more intentional group - say, of older Christians - might find a guest's presence to be an an opportunity to apply "pressure." Maybe before either of them are ready to put up with the pressure.
It's also difficult to have a conversation about a serious subject (such as the challenges of working with Down-syndrome youth) in a mixed group focused on "fun."
But those are really minor tactical issues, not strategic problems.
61. Tami said the following at 9:51 AM on Aug 4:
61
BDB (60) -- you raise good points, though I guess I was referring to one or two casual "getting to know you" type activities along the lines of "a bunch of us are going [to dinner/to see a movie/lawn bowling/what have you] on Friday; would you like to join us?" so that there's some familiarity beforehand.
And yeah, turning a conversation serious has never really posed a challenge to me. Though I can discuss American Idol with the best of them... ;)
On the other hand, I've been in an opposite situation -- the guy kept telling me, "You've gotta meet my friends! We'll all go out" etc etc and yet any time he asked me to do something, it was just with him. Talk about mixed messages...
62. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:56 AM on Aug 4:
62
No matter what your method is, the odds of your finding someone by not asking them out is zero.
Rejection hurts, no doubt. But unless you keep trying you most likely won't change your current state.
Of course, if you're methods are working after a valiant effort, you may need to rethink the methodology ("the definition of insanity is...")
63. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:12 PM on Aug 4:
63
BDB (#60)
I have a question -
My current boyfriend thought that I'd be uncomfortable being approached for an actual DATE when we'd only met once at a mutual friend's party.
He's probably right, that I would've been uncomfy with it...but for different reasons...
Do you think anything was wrong with his approaching me in this manner prior to asking me out one-on-one?
64. BDB said the following at 4:29 PM on Aug 4:
64
Christina (#63) wrote:
>>Do you think anything was wrong with his approaching me in this manner prior to asking me out one-on-one?<<
Nope - can't think of any reason why that would be wrong. I think anyone with an analytical mind - such as an engineer or finance person - would rather get to know someone through conversation before "dating" them.
Congratulations by the way.
65. BDB said the following at 4:43 PM on Aug 4:
65
Tami (#61) wrote:
>>"a bunch of us are going [to dinner/to see a movie/lawn bowling/what have you] on Friday; would you like to join us?" so that there's some familiarity beforehand. <<
I guess that works if you run with a "bunch." Personally, I find that it's pretty near impossible to get to know someone in a bunch. The conversation stays at the lowest common denominator, which tends to never get near questions of one's calling.
For example, I just learned that someone I know is passionate about working with kids with developmental challenges, and has spent the last few years working with a Downs syndrome child. It took almost a year for this to come up in casual, church-hallway kinds of conversations; the kind that are typical when running with a bunch of people. But this kind of thing tends to come up a lot sooner in a private lunch or over a cup of coffee.
66. Leah said the following at 6:49 PM on Aug 4:
66
BDB- I know a guy with over 1000 friends. I know for a fact some of these "people" are not legitimate people, and some are people he's only met a few times, but having said that...
- He was an MK who went to an MK school and through those contacts has friends all over the world
- He is very sociable and mixes with several church circles in our town, not just our own
- Even if he has only met someone once or twice, he's quite likely to go up and chat to them if he sees them at an event
- Through a national evangelical students' conference he has made lots of friends from around the country
The crazy thing is, he has such a good memory for people and is so sociable he probably keeps up relatively good connections with several hundred of these people.
I on the other hand have 364... a few of whom i haven't seen since highschool, a few of whom I only see once a year at the aforementioned conference, a tiny number of whom I haven't seen since high school...
67. BDB said the following at 12:32 PM on Aug 5:
67
I must say, I'm most impressed with Facebook's utility for keeping in contact with missionaries and people in other countries. We'll see how long it lasts, but it certainly has the potential to last longer than snail mail.
Of course, that means a lot of what's on their pages isn't in English...