Men Afraid of Bad Marriages
by Suzanne Hadley on 07/01/2008 at 11:03 AM
I've recently been having a lot of marriage conversations with guys. No, not that kind.
The feedback I'm receiving can be sorted into two resounding themes: 1. A lack of desire for marriage (or suspicion of it); 2. An uncertainty about how to go about it. (The second is a sentiment I have heard often from my male friends. One guy recently told me, "I think a lot of guys would be willing to walk through that door [commitment] if they only knew where it was.")
An article I read the other day seems to provide a possible reason for this hesitancy.
Bachelor Carl Weisman got fed up of being classified as a playboy, a loser or a commitment-phobe so he set out to find out exactly why he and a growing number of eligible men were steering clear of marriage.
Weisman, 49, conducted a survey of 1,533 heterosexual men to research a book aiming to give women an insight into why some smart, successful men opted to stay single -- and help lifelong bachelors understand why they are still the solo man at parties.
He concluded that most men were not afraid of marriage -- but they were afraid of a bad marriage.
"Men are 10 times more scared of marrying the wrong person than of never getting married at all," Weisman told Reuters in a telephone interview.
While I don't doubt this fear is valid, it sounds a little like justification to me. I was pondering this as I was reading John Thomas' response in Boundless Answers this week. He was responding to a guy who seemed to be asking, "What's the big deal about marriage anyway?" Thomas offers some practical thoughts on when to marry, how to pursue marriage and whom to marry. Speaking of Boundless' emphasis on marriage, he writes:
Our hope is that we help young Christians value and celebrate marriage and family at least as much as (and hopefully more than) they do their education and career and recreation, and help them evaluate whether they really do, or just think they do.
Our "one-track" mind on marriage is this: pray boldly, pursue biblically and discern spiritually.
If it's true that men are so afraid of bad marriages that they'd rather be lifelong bachelors, I'm glad there's a voice reminding them of God's values: that He desires to give them fulfillment and joy through good marriages. That, in fact, they will live out some of their greatest moments as men, leaders and spiritual warriors within this context.
1. Bonnie said the following at 11:21 AM on Jul 1
We've so lost the value of manhood today that marriage and family have similarly been gutted of value. I think as you said, men don't realize what God created them to be. They accept society's low expectations and low opinions of monogamy, male leadership, personal sacrifice and intact families. If our culture didn't slam men every time they exhibited God-given longings - such as to be the provider and the leader - we'd see more men getting married. I think many men would love to feel like they were fulfilling some deeper purpose, and I think they would if they knew what God had designed.
2. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:57 AM on Jul 1
they were afraid of a bad marriage
Its like that mantra that older women used to/still give to single women complaining about being single or wanting to rush into a lifelong marriage -
"Its better to be alone than married to the wrong guy."
Nowadays, for the girl, not so much unless they have that ingrained value that divorce is definitly NOT happening.
I can understand why guys would be afraid of a bad marriage. The consequences of getting out of a bad marriage are a lot rougher on the guys these days than on the girls. At least, that's what I'm hearing from the guys that say how important it is to get into a good marriage.
Here's the thing, though. They ARE a lot more hesitant, but they ARE justified in their hesitancy... Its ALWAYS been important to marry someone you trust. Its just that now, if you fail to marry someone who can hold that trust, a guy is being screwed over royally.
I think that because of the stakes, the guys are a lot less willing to trust than the girls are. Which is a shame. But you should never encourage a guy to marry someone who they can't trust...
3. Tami said the following at 11:59 AM on Jul 1
I have heard the "fear of a bad marriage" idea from some Christian guys. I think some of it's legitimate, but as is the case when we indulge in any fear, we're forgetting that God is with us. (I'm preaching to myself here also, BTW.)
Unfortunately, when these unmarried guys have *brothers in Christ* telling them, "Man, marriage is hard; I envy you because you're single and you get to do what you want," and then voicing their marital struggles to them, it doesn't exactly motivate them to get married. *Especially* if the guys come out of a family background where marriage has proven nothing but struggle.
I guess I could keep praying that the Lord would remove the fear from these men, and help the married ones work on their marriage. And oh yeah, that I would be a woman who would give a man *no reason* to fear marrying me. :)
4. mary kate said the following at 12:42 PM on Jul 1
christina (in green), i totally see where you're coming from, however, i still use that line. i'm 29 and single, and i know that my position is way better than being married to the wrong guy. now, that doesn't mean i'm running from marriage. i think it helps me to have a healthy respect for it. men shouldn't run from marriage, either, but i can understand why they might feel intimidated and have that fear of ending up in a bad marriage. divorce is awful, and if it's not an option (which it shouldn't be), the thought of attempting to share your life with someone who ends up being a bad match (for whatever reason) can be equally awful.
i'm not justifying, i'm just saying... i think i get it.
5. Loris said the following at 12:56 PM on Jul 1
My dad would have agreed with the Weisman's assessment. A quiet and gentle man, he allowed his sorrow over his parents' constant fighting to turn into a full-blown case of commitment-phobia. He married for the first time at 38 and practically had to be dragged to the altar. However, once the knot was tied, it was embarrassing how fast he became domesticated (according to my mom). These timid bachelors need to get counseling for their fears and then make something happen. Too often a legitimate fear can become a paralyzing security blanket if allowed to go on too long.
6. Ryan said the following at 12:59 PM on Jul 1
Suzanne--
A couple things. While God "desires to give them fulfillment and joy through good marriages" that is no guarantee it will happen. Furthermore, manhood is not defined by the women in our lives, in fact, if i were on a desert island i'd be--in essence (or should be)-- a man even without marriage.
Second, your mentioning "While I don't doubt this fear is valid, it sounds a little like justification to me," is odd. What's so bad about having a reason fo rthe thigns we do?
I don't have to be married to be a good Christian. I doubt very much I woudl be fulfilled in life with a woman-- if i can't even be satisfied by God, ala John Piper's theme that this brings God mroe glory if we are, then bringnig a woman into the mix of my un-glorifying life will not help matter but muddle them.
And my previous posts on this blog outlining all i've done--and what the Church hasn't--to improve this will only cement the overall sense that there really is nothign that can be done at this stage in life to change any of it.
So i am happily a bachelor. Women are moreso.
7. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:07 PM on Jul 1
I believe a large reason why men hesitate toward committing to marriage is that there is a lot of risk involved for minimal reward (compared to other options such as cohabitation).
First of all, a man has to put forth a lot of monetary assets at risk. Should there be a divorce, chances are the man will end up on the shorter end of the stick than the woman finacially.
Then there's the issue of child custody. In this country, it's one of the few areas where there is a clear bias towards women in regards to who is "better suited" for raising a child. Unless there is overwhelming evidence of gross negligence or misconduct, in a woman vs. man battle of child custody, the woman almost always wins.
And of course there's the issue of sex (The "Why marry the cow...?" line). Since it's much easier for a man to get sexual satisfaction outside of marriage, there's little reason to lay so much on the line for it.
Finally, there's the theory that many men are looking for damsels in distress to rescue. That inner desire to provide and protect. Well, in today's environment there's hardly any need for that (and for a guy to admit that is to invite criticisms of being chauvanistic or sexist). Most women can provide for themselves just fine, and there's little need for physical protection in the traditional sense. So those aspects of motivation are diminished.
Combine all of this with the aforementioned discouragement of marriage in general, including within the Church, and the reluctance of women to marry at a younger age, and it's no surprise to see where we are at now.
8. Nicole Y said the following at 1:24 PM on Jul 1
Being afraid of a bad marriage seems like a cop out to me.....marriage doesn't just suddenly become "bad". I'ts not like when you buy a car and then find out later that it's a lemon. Are they forgetting that they are part of the equation? Maybe what they are really afraid of is having to work hard so that it doesn't become a bad marriage? Not marrying is definitely the easy way out, no hard work involved. This would go for both guys and gals.
9. obewan said the following at 1:24 PM on Jul 1
>>"Men are 10 times more scared of marrying the wrong person than of never getting married at all," Weisman told Reuters in a telephone interview.<<
Men or Christian men? I really don’t think the numbers in a worldly survey would line up the same against men in the Church who are trusting God, and praying diligently about the Lord’s leading regarding finding the right wife.
True, there is always the issue of fear, but Christian love breaks down those walls. I have not met a single Christian man in over 20 years of involvement in Christian singles ministry who was afraid of commitment, but I have met many women who were fussy or disinterested in dating.
Of course, as I have posted many times before, the ratios of men to women were as bad as 12:1 in the groups I was involved in near a large military base, so some degree of fussiness might have been warranted.
Now, I don’t have fear as much as uncertainty about reconciling the biblical position on divorce and remarriage since 98% of the Christian women I meet are divorced. I will admit though that the ones who have been divorced 2 or even three times do put some fear in my heart. My hope is that they have changed spiritually for the better after their divorce(s) if that was an issue in their prior life.
10. Khalil said the following at 1:35 PM on Jul 1
As probably someone that will be a lifelong and confirmed bachelor, I understand the value of marriage and what it means and how it serves the greater community. That said though, not everyone has to be married or be searching for prospects all the time. Some people aren't ready for it or willing to be married. If they are "playing the field" and don't want to be married out of losing that lifestyle then I don't accept that as a satisfactory answer.
Only speaking for myself, I am not afraid of marriage but don't see what good it will do for me. It may be fore a season that I remain single...I am in my 30's and preparing for long term overseas mission work. Am I selfish in this? Yeah, I think so, but if I recognize that there are parts of myself I cannot give to another then I would be better of single until those things are sorted out, however selfish they seem. I am chaste and if I must die that way, so be it.
The more I focus on having a wife/girlfriend/etc in my life the more I tend to lose sight of what matters most, serving God. At this point I have stopped praying for a spouse as even that prayer has become a distraction. I am not bitter or afraid, just not prepared and ready. It is that simple. So on one hand I can understand the question, "is marriage all that big a deal", as being a legitimate question. It isn't for everyone.
11. Kellie said the following at 2:10 PM on Jul 1
For all the Boundless posts about people (regardless of gender) being hesitant to marry or delaying marriage: I see this in my non-Christian friends and family members without a doubt. But in the (becoming not so) young adult Christians I know through church and other ministries, none of this really holds true. It is true, it isn't always easy to find your spouse, but once they do, it's been followed nearly without exception by a wedding within a year to two years.
12. Suzanne said the following at 2:32 PM on Jul 1
Ryan,
Thanks for your thoughts. I wasn't talking about the specific blessing of a perfect marriage, I was referring to the overall blessing/solution God provided:
"The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (Gen. 2:18)
There is a very practical good for both men and women within marriage because God designed it that way.
You say, "manhood is not defined by the women in our lives." I never said that. I only said that because of God's design for marriage (and the fact that it mirror's Christ's relationship with the church), it is a powerful context in which men and women can live out their God-given purposes.
13. Jo said the following at 3:13 PM on Jul 1
"It's not like when you buy a car and then find out later that it's a lemon."
Man, I hate it when that happens.
14. Melody said the following at 3:24 PM on Jul 1
I'm not sure where some people are getting their info about divorced men getting the short end of the stick after a marriage fails. I wish I could site my source, but it's been proven that the majority of divorced males actually increase their income and mobility after a split, whereas most females and their children slip further down financially and are much worse off in many areas of life. It's the ladies who have a lot more to risk, folks.
But it's not all about the risk. Be a man, trust God, and stick with someone no matter what, like your vows say. It CAN be done and you CAN have a happy, fulfilling marriage.
15. JJ said the following at 4:42 PM on Jul 1
Personally, I'm not holding out to enjoy my bachelorhood or to live it up... rather I just feel I need to improve some areas in my life (spiritual, career, finances, etc) to be that much better and qualified for a potential marriage.(this process would be much slower if trying to balance a relationship at the same time) I realize I can never be the perfect man and shouldn't hold myself to that...but realistically I do feel I need another yr before I jump back into the dating scene.
16. Rock said the following at 4:54 PM on Jul 1
Darn right us guys are afraid of a bad marriage. It would be horrible to be married to a woman who was always negative or who cut me down all of the time or who let herself go or decided that she didn't want to help out around the house or nags all of the time. Yeesh... Just listing those things out scares me.
17. scott said the following at 4:59 PM on Jul 1
Melody wrote:
I'm not sure where some people are getting their info about divorced men getting the short end of the stick after a marriage fails. I wish I could site my source, but it's been proven that the majority of divorced males actually increase their income and mobility after a split, whereas most females and their children slip further down financially and are much worse off in many areas of life. It's the ladies who have a lot more to risk, folks.
Check out the work of Dr. Stephen Baskerville, including his recently published book Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers, Marriage, and the Family. For instance, it's not uncommon for an involuntarily divorced man to have 2/3 or more of his income taken for 'child support'. In once case cited in his book, the 'child support' was so excessive that a man and his two other children had to 'move' into a homeless shelter because he couldn't afford his house payment any longer.
18. Craig said the following at 5:10 PM on Jul 1
I wonder if popular culture doesn't play some small part in this. For men whose own experiences as children didn't provide a noble model for married life, the influence of the popular (TV) conception of married manhood cannot be very compelling. As entertaining as a few of them can be, married men on television tend to be portrayed as essentially morons. They are talked down to, bossed about and treated like children by their wordly, saavy wives. They give the sense of being strangers or guests in their own homes--mere passersby in a world essentially dominated by women. What is the appeal of that? Men are being told by our culture, I think, that women in marriage will not treat them like men. Even in Christian circles this message is repeated. In an earlier post on this site, I recall one young woman asking why she couldn't be the "steak" to her husband's "parsley," and why he shouldn't be willing to follow her around the world for the sake of her dominant career. Of course it's a free country, and she has the right to try to attain whatever professional distinctions she desires. But in general, it is unlikely that men will find the prospect of subordinating their lives and careers to the wishes of a woman very palatable. If that's the price of marriage--and much of our culture (including Christians) is increasingly saying that it is, many men will simply not see the appeal.
19. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:10 PM on Jul 1
"Fear" is probably the wrong term here. Risk-averse? Now we're talking.
Risk aversion--in reasonable measure--is a sign of prudence. Don't believe me? Just ask any investor who lost his shirt in the dot-com bubble. Just ask any homeowner who took out an ARM and is now facing foreclosure.
There is a huge difference between fear--which is not Biblical--and prudence, which IS Biblical.
The potential impact of a divorce on the man has increased dramatically over the past 30 years. The feminist might claim this as a victory in "equality", but keep in mind that causes unintended consequences, one of which means more risk-aversion in the choice of a mate.
Top that off with the increase of women pursuing full-time careers and putting off marriage until the late 20s and beyond, and you have the perfect storm.
20. Ryan said the following at 5:45 PM on Jul 1
Suzanne--
My apologies as i wasn't meaning to put words in your mouth.
Thought it inevitably is seen as cantankerous to do so, challenging and seeking to clarify many of the cliches in our Christian worldview may be off-putting... but i think its totally legitmate to delay or even dismiss the thought (and for me, the desire follows the thought) of marriage since there's no way you can "hurry along" sanctification.
While marriage is a crucible in itself, there obviously are standards women should be loooing for in a mate. I don't want a girl to have to settle for me because there's no better guy out there.
The fact i can't be a leader of a home, much less a good husband or father, without God and His enabling is sobering. The fact i can't get that true and genuine fellowship with Jesus instead of a sterile textbook understanding of Him in my own single life (and believe me, i've tried) is indisputable.
Until that happens and i'm intoxicated with His Spirit and truly changed and not merely "informed" about theological "isms" (which many people think these days if you just go "uh-huh" to four or five of the right questions you're saved, when really, when has it become some scheme or formula of mental assent? Probably when revivalists saw lots of peopel coming foward as a way to boost their self-importance...) i will not seek a wife. It woudl be irresponsible for an unsanctified, carnal Christian to do that.
End of rant. But good topic to stir the fire, Suzanne.
21. pass the ammunition said the following at 5:59 PM on Jul 1
yeah... women end up WAY worse after divorce/separation, and claiming otherwise is bunk. Women give up more to get married, its just a fact--and even women who keep working after having kids often give up advancements in their career to avoid conflict in their marriage. Count in the physical labor of having and taking care of children that a woman wouldn't have had otherwise, maternity leave, etc. and it just keeps adding up. Not only that but consider the difficulty that middle aged women have finding a second spouse compared to men who can date in a much wider age range.
Now, I don't think that money should keep people from getting married, but the people claiming that men are worse off from divorce than women need a reality check.
22. farmer Tom said the following at 6:16 PM on Jul 1
14. Melody,
I wish I could site my source, but it's been proven that the majority of divorced males actually increase their income and mobility after a split,
horse feathers,
There is a long article here,
http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_03_03_baskerville.pdf
which clearly shows that you are making it up.
From Welfare State to Police State
By Stephen Baskerville
Welfare reform in the United States has shifted the role of welfare agencies from distributing money to collecting it—not from taxpayers but from divorced fathers. Despite the stereotype of the “deadbeat dad” as a wealthy playboy squiring around his new trophy wife in a bright red Porsche, federal officials have acknowledged that most unpaid child support is uncollectible because it is owed by fathers who are as poor as or poorer than the mothers and children.
In reality men are legitimately scared of marriage because women (feminists in particular) both out side and inside the church have abandoned the God given role of women, for a system which makes men another notch (trophy) on the career path. The current feminist thinking is as follows, go to the best college you can afford, borrow as much money an necessary to get the good paying career, have several boyfriends to maintain an active social life, marry when it fits into your career, have children when it fits into your career, or when you reach 40, then when or if the marriage or children interfere with the career, divorce the useless man now that you have the trophy children and make him pay child support and alimony because he wasn't rich enough for you to quit your career and stay at home.
It's all the men's fault. If men would all be fabulously wealthy, never what sex and always be "there for you" when you are "having issues" then there would never be divorce right?
Mike T put it well, Well, in today's environment there's hardly any need for that (and for a guy to admit that is to invite criticisms of being chauvanistic or sexist). Most women can provide for themselves just fine, and there's little need for physical protection in the traditional sense. So those aspects of motivation are diminished. too many women today are looking for a sugar daddy not a husband. They don't want traditional marriage, they want to live in a commune with just one guy and every thing is split equally, share and share alike, no hierarchal order, just a big love fest and when things fall apart, its the mans fault.
Men have valid concerns about marriage and any of you discounting those concerns are either ignoring reality or are a part of the problem.
You want men to desire marriage? Then return marriage to what it was!! Women serving as a help meet to their husbands, satisfying his sexual needs, cooking for him, cleaning up after him, treating your marriage as the most important thing in your life,(not another notch on the career path), taking care of his(your) children, making him the sole bread winner, while you stay at home and train your children in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord".
23. Patrick said the following at 7:07 PM on Jul 1
Hm, I dunno? Do you think that's truly the case with Christian men in general, that most are reluctant to pursue marriage because they're afraid of getting into a bad marriage?
I mean, at least in my (limited?) experience, and in the circles I'm mostly around (Protestant, evangelical, Reformed), there seem to be a lot of Christian men who want to get married but it's more the Christian women who are reluctant -- and, at least from what I can tell, it seems they're reluctant because they're afraid of choosing the wrong guy, missing out on "God's best" for them, etc.?
Then again, it's very possible my experiences and so on aren't at all representative of most Christians.
24. Dawnson said the following at 7:28 PM on Jul 1
I definitely have this fear, but I didn't start that way. I dated my girlfriend in college for 2.5 years, and it took us that long for personality tendencies and worldviews to come out enough for her to decide we weren't right for each other (and break up with me). I eventually came to agree. GF #2 sounded very interested in marriage and kids when we started dating, but after 1.5 years of dating completely changed her mind and now dreams only of being an artist. Looking back, I feel I dodged a bullet in both cases. I'm thankful that I'm not married to either of them now, but it has left me very distrustful of my ability to truly know any girl (as well as their own self-knowledge).
So here I am, 25, and very afraid of marrying someone who will unexpectedly change a couple years down the road and make me regret the choice. I very much want to get married, and I feel like I know the steps once dating, but the finding and choosing feels much more complicated now.
25. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:00 PM on Jul 1
Actually, Melody, you're not even in the ballpark here, as the risks for the men are real and substantial, and the fact that men are more risk-averse is a matter of prudence.
(1) Child custody is overwhelmingly against the men. Even in "joint" custody arrangements, they usually lose the primary custody. Look at what K-Fed had to go through to get the custody ruling that should have been a "no-brainer". And that charade is still in play as I write.
(2) Financially, any divorce that involves a house with a mortgage is going to be a disaster all the way around. If they relied on two incomes, you're looking--at best--at a sale of the house. If both names are on the mortgage, you can almost bet that you're looking at a foreclosure and possibly a bankruptcy that can damage his career and future earning potential, not to mention his ability to obtain credit on favorable terms.
(3) The stigma of divorce in the Christian ranks is very real. Even for the men. This is because a high-profile segment of "Christian leaders" believe that men are responsible for all failed marriages. This impacts the man's ability to serve in the church.
I've seen no small number of these cases, and yes they are very real. Are they a good cause for "fear"? No. Are they a good cause for men to exercise more prudence? You bet!
Fact is, a man can do everything right and still end up divorced, just as a woman can do everything right and still end up divorced. I've seen both scenarios, and yes they involved "equal yoke" marriages.
Dismissing the men by saying, "Just be a man and trust God" is a very pathetic cop-out response to those who raise legitimate issues and frame things in terms of prudence.
And yes...trusting God and exercising prudence go hand-in-hand.
The same people who scream, "Be a man and trust God!" are the same people who will dismiss a man who does such, marries a woman who is unstable, and she leaves him in spite of his best efforts. They'll then blame him for "exercising a poor choice in women".
As a respondent on my blog said recently: "I'm not looking to coast, but I refuse to be the Designated Sucker!"
26. Xasteius said the following at 9:14 PM on Jul 1
Obewan and mike, you hit the mark. From personal experience, I get the impression that a lot of Christian young ladies have absorbed the attitude of the world in the sense that they are obsessed with 'getting ahead', and simply unwilling to commit in their 20s.
You can't blame the guys for all the marriage inadequacies. The world (and I daresay the church), has basically made the male a scapegoat for all past and present ills (just compare the sermons for Father's Day and Mother's Day at a lot of churches). I don't say that men are entirely off the hook, but blame is to be shared out among the sexes for the current situation.
27. Yuri said the following at 11:09 PM on Jul 1
What's up with this obsession with marriage going on here at Boundless? I discovered this site a few years back and while I find some stuff interesting, the obsession with marriage is disturbing.
Ladies, I just don't appreciate all the comments directed at guys nervous about committing. That's not a good way to approach it. You shouldn't act as if guys OWE it to you to approach you and marry you.
I've seen a lot of comments directed at the vague stereotype of "Man who won't take the initiative." There's a lot more to life than marriage. This world has many cultures... and many people even just struggle to survive day to day. This painted picture of God expecting us to live in nice middle-class suburban homes, married, and with a few kids, complete with the latest Christian brand products, is just very narrow.
28. Justice said the following at 11:12 PM on Jul 1
for the sake of sane men anywhere, here lies the problem:
When we go to church, we see women in their 20's who gain lots of weight, women who stay at home to take care of the kids but are too lazy to exercise, I've seen it and heard the women say that. Then you see them cut their hair short like Zach Morris.
So we see women, 20-30 years older, and see that a lot of the Christian women gain loads of weight and don't take care of themselves, then see non-Christians actually taking care of themselves.
So in a way, some people look at it like this:
I work hard, take care of the wife, enough for her to stay home, but yet she cannot take care of herself or try to look good? Doesn't sound like a good trade?
Please publish this! People need to know the truth, it's not rude, it's not unspiritual, but I've met too many women like this in church
29. alex said the following at 1:11 AM on Jul 2
HAha Farmer Tom tell me you are joking! PLEASE! That is so sad!
30. Elizabeth H said the following at 1:12 AM on Jul 2
Who isn't afraid of a bad marriage?
Patrick wondered if Christian women are afraid of choosing the wrong guy. That's actually not my fear. I have no doubts about God's guidance. I know he's faithful and will bring me a wonderful husband, and will give me the grace to love my husband.
What I fear is my own weaknesses. I worry that I'll be a nagging wife and a horrible mother. And that the marriage will be bad because of me.
So to the rest of you, what does it mean to fear a bad marriage? Are you worried about the journey to the wedding or about what happens afterward? Are you more worried about your own weak areas or about what your spouse will be like?
31. Dave said the following at 1:20 AM on Jul 2
I'm a Christian guy, I will echo many of the sentiments stated by the guys above: I have no desire whatsoever to get married, because the chances of ending up on a dreadful relationship and no way out (since I believe divorce is wrong) is too great. I've seen far too many Christian men throw their lives away in poisonous marriages to shove "all or nothing" on the roulette-wheel-relationship that marriage is.
In any other area of your life, nobody would ever recommend you gamble all or nothing on one option...nobody. Can you imagine a stock broker, or financial adviser, telling you to put everything you own, and ever will own, into this one "miracle" stock, because if it goes up, you've hit the big time? Nobody would ever take that advice when dealing just with money, why on earth you'd do it with your very life, is beyond me.
32. Farmer Pete said the following at 3:22 AM on Jul 2
Would some of the ladies posting on this thread care to consider something?
The more we hear single women with a critical and unsympathetic spirit... The more we hear the attitude that it's all our fault and that we need to be nagged into doing the right thing... The more we hear men being run down and denigrated, the better being a bachelor appears.
We all have our faults, but what we desire is a wife who is on our side,,, and critical, unappreciative ladies just don't fit the picture.
Girls, if you wish to attract a husband, try dressing up the attitudes, not just the wardrobe. Appreciation is the best trick in your repertoire, and I cannot tell you how attractive it is.
Peter.
33. Kelly said the following at 3:38 AM on Jul 2
Rock said:
"always negative or who cut me down all of the time or who let herself go or decided that she didn't want to help out around the house or nags all of the time."
And equally, I'm terrified of marrying a man who never listens to my opinion, sees me as a lesser being, grows a beer belly, never does housework and prefers watching sport to actual conversation.
The thing is, no matter how beautiful the person is on the outside when you marry them, we're all going to end up old and ugly. ;)
The rest, I would hope that you would be able to judge those character qualities during courtship and as mature adults, work out your differences when the arguments over cleaning start.
Reading some of the responses here from happy bachelors have been a bit horrifying. Men who are confirmed bachelors - are you virgins? Because from the terms you've used to describe your lives, sex is the only thing that you seem to be missing out on. (Feel free to respond anonymously).
Whereas for women, we focus more on missing out on family (children) which gives us a much stronger desire for marriage. I love my nephews more than I thought possible and I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a child of my own.
34. Amir Larijani said the following at 4:59 AM on Jul 2
Patrick: My experience is not far-removed from yours. I have yet to meet a Christian man who is quaking in his boots over the risks of a bad marriage. In fact, the only single Christian I've known in my life who refuses to marry at all is...a woman.
Moreover, I'm getting just a tad weary of folks who conflate a secular study with what is going on in the Church, and frame actions of men in terms of "fear" rather than "prudence".
Any financial planner worth his or her salt will spend considerable time discussing matters and asking you barrages of questions in order to assess your level of "risk tolerance". He or she helps you develop a plan with respect to (a) the level of risk you are willing to take and (b) the level of risk that would be prudent for you to take.
All risk-aversion is not born of fear.
While it may be true that women are worse off than men after a divorce, it is also true that men are worse off after a divorce than they would have been 30 years ago.
Ergo, the men would be right to exercise more prudence in the selection of a mate.
35. Lady Akofa said the following at 5:46 AM on Jul 2
Suzanne, Women also fear bad marriages too!
Nobody commits to marriage knowing what will really happen while married, whether it will a blissful experience or a horrible, bad experience. However, we all want to have the best of experience when married. Our married boundless writers often tell us that marriage requires WORK. Granted.
Is it possible that men (and women too) are looking at the world (media, contemporary culture, poll results, etc) and believing them instead of trusting God in their hopes and dreams of 'good' marriages?
36. obewan said the following at 6:09 AM on Jul 2
“>>Melody wrote:
I'm not sure where some people are getting their info about divorced men getting the short end of the stick after a marriage fails. I wish I could site my source, but it's been proven that the majority of divorced males actually increase their income and mobility after a split, whereas most females and their children slip further down financially and are much worse off in many areas of life. It's the ladies who have a lot more to risk, folks.<<”
At my church singles group, 48 out of 50 women are divorced. Nearly every single one of them lives in a huge, new, luxurious house and drives a brand new $40K SUV monster truck – in most cases all by their lonesome.
Some of the houses are 4000 sq footers with marble floors and of course they are full of the most expensive solid wood furniture.
My take is that they have cleaned the ex out for all he was worth, or they are very very deep in debt. Either case scares me, and if it is fiscal irresponsibility, I for sure would be afraid of marrying them less the financial troubles precipitate a second divorce.
37. farmer Tom said the following at 6:32 AM on Jul 2
Patrick said,
but it's more the Christian women who are reluctant -- and, at least from what I can tell, it seems they're reluctant because they're afraid of choosing the wrong guy, missing out on "God's best" for them, etc.?
You mean "God's best" if he makes more money than she does, doesn't plan on having children till it fits into her career, already owns a house in the 'burbs, is a spiritual giant, is meek and mild as a house cat, has no bad habits like video games, is enviro friendly, spends all his spare time doing charity work and will be there at her beck and call, that kind of "God's best",
yep, I'd say it's all mens fault, they are just worthless, why don't all you women get another cat and quit whining.
38. Annika said the following at 7:06 AM on Jul 2
Farmer Tom said "You want men to desire marriage? Then return marriage to what it was!! Women serving as a help meet to their husbands, satisfying his sexual needs, cooking for him, cleaning up after him, treating your marriage as the most important thing in your life,(not another notch on the career path), taking care of his(your) children, making him the sole bread winner, while you stay at home and train your children in the 'nurture and admonition of the Lord.'"
I think this is one of the most offensive things I've ever read on Boundless! In order to want someone to marry me, I'm meant to be a sex slave, maid and nanny? Not a friend, partner, and equal? It's a good thing I'm marrying someone who doesn't consider me a subordinate for him to use!
39. R said the following at 7:22 AM on Jul 2
Who wants a bad marriage? I think its great men are working hard for a Christ-centered marriage by not compromising on biblical principles when it comes to dating.
I really do not know any guys that do not desire marriage, let alone dating. And we see great beauty in the Proverbs 31 woman. Yet in the Christian media so many women are repudiating it!
"Afraid" is too strong of a word in this thread, yet we're all too aware of current trends happening in the "church" today. I won't repeat what's been said by the other brothers, but for another example just remember that some years back there was at least one Christian singer that initiated divorce from her husband.
The bottom line is that Christian men do not want to compromise on God's standard ... we want strong, mature Christian women. And if it means waiting on God then we'll do that.
40. M.R. said the following at 8:28 AM on Jul 2
Wow, I sense a lot of bitterness in these comments (<--- understatement if there ever was one). Is it possible that treating marriage like something that must be done, that shouldn't (or shouldn't have to) involve romantic emotions or a sense of destiny about the person, brings this about? What happened to simply marrying a person you can't live without, ample income and perfect single lifestyle bedamned ---> these things do not even come close to sharing your life with the love of your life!
I've had guys tell me that, for guys, it's all about the search, the chase, the quest, for the girl they feel God has picked out for them. But for girls, it's about being singled out, pursued. YES, women are picky, choosy, etc. They HAVE to be, because they must be convinced that the man that they will marry will love them unconditionally, will lay down his life for them ---> a la Christ for his Church. So this choosiness, guys, actually does have a legitimate source. They know that they will have to let this man into their heart, their lives, their bodies for pete's sake. They have to give up their lives and identities for you, men. Forgive me if being risk-averse and prudent when courting does not have me begging to be your "help meet".
So guys, my advice to you: relax, be a romantic, if a Biblical one, and puruse the person God singles out for you.
41. Rachael said the following at 8:57 AM on Jul 2
Men & women are probably both afraid of bad marriages.
I wonder if marriage has become more complicated than it needs to be in America, and in Christian cultures.
Besides the story of Jacob, was the story of anyone else incredibly complex?
My mom once expressed her simple opinion in a conversation with me...if I remember right, the important things in her mind seemed to be: Is he a Christian? Is he good to you? Can you imagine living your life with him every day?
Now, I know that seems drastically simple. And I want to marry a strong Christian, not just any Christian.
But I just wonder if sometimes in Christian circles and maybe other circles we just complicate things unnecessarily.
Nowhere in the Bible does it give a big long list of must-have characteristics and interests a potential spouse must have.
And nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to be perfect before marrying. It is admirable to desire to grow, and I think having someone in your life is a good motivator for wanting to grow more.
Anyway...just some thoughts. And in no way am I advocating "just marry anyone". :) No!!!
But perhaps sometimes we can relax standards/ideals/methodologies/the hoopla of the commercialized wedding/courtship/dating 'rules'/expectations....
Where have the simple days gone? :)
But then again...as the "Preacher" said in Ecc., "Say not, 'Why were the former days better than these?' For it is not from wisdom that you ask this."
It's not a matter of the 'good ole days' ~~ the marriage culture now is probably generally more based on love than duty...but what do I know :)
In short, I think things sometimes become unnecessarily complicated...at the same time spouse-choosing must be a careful procedure...hmmm...balance, balance....
42. a sassy sister said the following at 9:21 AM on Jul 2
Dear Suzanne:
After reading both your blog posts and link to John Thomas in Boundless Answers, I had to comment. Here goes:
1.) Your source for creating a springboard of discussion is on a faulty plank, especially considering that many of the respondents here are single Christians. Sometimes I wonder if Boundless' overall agenda is to get as many Christians to marry and procreate, implying that somehow marriage and making babies is the answer to the society's ills. I am not knocking marriage and family at all. However, I firmly believe that in your zeal to encourage family formation, you have undertaken careless measures in interpreting Scripture (proof texting and eisegesis) and have equated cultural tradition and Scriptural truth. Genesis 2:18 is a blessing on mankind, not a command for all believers to have as many children as possible.
2.) Moments of great leadership do not occur in a specific context all the time, and to make gross generalizations about such things is to not only put people in boxes, but to put the sovereignty and power of God in a box.
3.) Marriage and family is a ministry. It is a vehicle for God's glory. But there is no scriptural text that explicitly states that it is the highest and holiest calling for believers. Commitment phobia about relationships will not be solved by simply getting people to get married and have children. Commitment phobia is the fruit of the problem, not the root.
4.) I understand and appreciate your efforts to make sure that our generation values and celebrates marriages. But the truth about marriage and family is that there is no need to try to resort to shaming tactics, social guilt,and male bashing to convince Christians to marry and have children. Besides, blaming others for your own choices does nothing to further the discussion and is a poor attempt to absolve people from taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes in relationships. Also, believe it or not, there are some people who have done everything right by Boundless standards and are still single.
5.) I believe that when it comes to the specifics of marriage and family, everything that is not explicitly laid out in Scripture should be a matter of conviction(i.e. the specifics of how a household is run, etc.) Just because one person is instructed by God to do something does not make it mandate for every other believer to do the same thing. Some marry young. Some marry later. Some do not marry at all. All decisions should be made with a clear understanding of the risks, consequences, and sacrifices to be made.
43. Sarah Elizabeth said the following at 9:26 AM on Jul 2
Why is it that we all feel we must be perfect and together before we enter marriage? Obviously, a man should be capable of leading a family, but you don't have have to be super husband from day one. There is time to grow and learn during marriage. I look up to my 50+ father, I have a lot of respect for him, and would like to marry someone with similar qualities. however, I know that the great man I know now grew this way over time. He was not this way when he was 25. I can't expect someone who is 25 to live up to the legacy my father has met-that takes time and growth.
Also, who's to say a woman might not bring you closer to God? in a relationship, both should be inspiring and encouragin gthe other towards Christ. HAve you ever noticed it is easier to live for Christ when you are in Christian fellowhsip? Well, having a Godly woman inspiring you may be just what you need.
From what I have noticed men seem to do well with standards in place, they like goals and to know what is expected of them. It is possible that the pressure and responsibility of being the spiritual leader in a family may be just what a man needs in order to grow closer to God. The realization that he cant be the leader he wants to be on his own, may be just what propels him to get on his knees before God.
44. Lauren said the following at 9:32 AM on Jul 2
Comment # 22 Farmer Tom:
I would argue that your view of marriage is more the American/White/1960's/Leave it to Beaver view rather than the correct biblical view. Although I would agree with you that a woman's role is one of support, I do not agree that it is always defined by staying at home, cooking for, and cleaning up after her husband.
As you can see if you read Proverbs 31, support can be defined many ways including working hard at a career and making wise business decisions in order to support the husband in meeting the family's financial goals. Although taking care of the house and children is one of her responsibilities (and even her primary reasponsibility during certain seasons of her life), it is by no means the only thing that she was called to do.
It is comments like yours that make intelligent, wise, business savvy, and multi-talented Christian women afraid of entering into bad marriages with men that are too insecure to nurture and lead their wives in utilizing their God giving talents. I don't think the majority of us have a real problem with submission or with being a helper. We are just not all interested in being Donna Reed.
Proverbs 31: 13-31:
" 13 She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight. 14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar. 15 She rises also while it is still night and gives food to her household and portions to her maidens. 16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. 17 She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong. 18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. 19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, and her hands grasp the spindle. 20 She extends her hand to the poor, and she stretches out her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, for all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22 She makes coverings for herself; her clothing is fine linen and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. 24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies belts to the tradesmen. 25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she smiles at the future. 26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. 27 She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. 28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying: 29 "Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all." 30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised. 31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates. "
45. BB said the following at 10:01 AM on Jul 2
Suzanne,
I think you presume to much. Remember there are differences between men and women and just because you can't understand that fear doesn't mean it is some kind of "justification" or not valid.
I've seen so many woman pretend to be something only to change once they got married. It has been said that men are often more realistic about marriage and the sacrifices that will have to be made. Because we often use logic instead of emotion to make our decisions, men may see something that is holding them back. I don't know why God made men the leader in relationships but I wonder if the ability to ignore emotions when making decisions has something to do with it.
I've made friends with many single Godly women in my hungry years and even considered asking some of them out but because of that fear I never did. Actually the woman I'm dating now I almost quit pursuing because I wasn't sure we held the same core values. I've seen from experience that that will really harm a relationship. Once I found out she was the real deal, we continued dating with direction and purpose. I can't say now what our future will hold but getting where we are now happened really quickly. I don't have that fear with her therefore guys who say that just haven't met the right person yet.
As for the Christian or non-Christian question, I would say that fear is there for both. I've been in both circles and neither group wants to be divorced. Guys often define worth by success or accomplishing goals and divorce is a failure. The same guys that desperately want to find a companion would much rather hold out for something that will last. After all, a 50% divorce rate doesn't exactly encourage doing something you're not sure about.
I like most of your posts but in the case of this one, I'm afraid you've got the wrong perspective. I thing a follow up post on how to get past this fear might be better then just saying we're just making excuses.
My advice would include the following:
1) pray that God will bring someone into my life
2) pray that I would be able to notice her when she comes
3) pray that we be able to QUICKLY discern the difference between what should be a deal breaker or a compromise
4) pray that while we are making that decision we are careful not lead her on or do anything to make the decision harder
5) read passages that encourage you to do all of these things.
Notice that a lot of it is prayer. When I began praying these things, I was able to pray with confidence because God promises wisdom to those who seek it. I believe James talks about believing what you are asking for and through my quiet times and being in God's will, I was able to do that with full confidence.
46. florida_grl said the following at 10:33 AM on Jul 2
Who can blame the guys. I think women have forgotten to be ladies first, so men are confused which turns into fear. With all the drama most attention starved, needy women bring how could they not be terrified? Most of these girls are also in churches. I find it amusing how girls are now taking the role of initiating a relationship. This may not be in every area but Florida is crazy, especially in churches.
I see some of my guy friends' confusion and desperation. The guy I'm currently in a very committed relationship (we're discussing marriage) is a wonderful, amazing, Christian guy, and so many times he gets asked on dates. He gets hit on even when he is with me. I admire him for the spiritual warrior he is. I would never want to be a guy nowadays simply because I now see what he and his roomate has to put up with. I find it shocking every time, that girls can be so bold. I am not a jealous person, nor will I ever compete for a man. It's not my style to compete for a guy. I believe that what God has for me He set it aside.
I say those things because his roomate obviously would also like to get married, but too many women chase him instead of allowing him to initiate and pursue.
In a way it make sense this is happening since there are no godly examples of women even in churches anymore. Hollywood does a great job influencing all including the church's new approach. Most of these moms are so status oriented, unaproachable, and too into themselves and their trophy kids. This is true even with some of the pastors' wives. All the moms want to be your best friend and very few I believe really take time to pray for their kids. There is no real soul to soul connection in Bible study, just watered down gospel. My mom isn't a Christian, but my grandma prayed for me a lot. I miss her a lot because I knew she always prayed for me and taught me to put God first. I also like Boundless because it gives advice from the Bible on real issues. At least there is some firm truth left out there.
I would love to find a godly praying older couple who has been married for a long time, who can pray and fast for me and the one I'm gonna marry. But I can rarely find one in these in the new churches, extra-large, 20,000 member churches. I might go back to my roots of the traditional church with the hymns and all and to those couples who've been married for 50 yrs.
47. Katie P. said the following at 11:07 AM on Jul 2
Just a friendly question: does it really matter who stands to lose more in a bad marriage/divorce? It seems to me like it is horrible for both men and women, without having to keep score. :)
48. Mary said the following at 1:41 PM on Jul 2
Given the current divorce statistics, I can't help but think that it is most prudent to be 100% sure about the person one is marrying. And regardless how much we decry the prolongagtion of adolescence, young people frankly are often unable to truly "grow up" until their mid-twenties. While maturity is something that a person can avoid, it isn't something a person can "decide" to have if it hasn't had an opportunity to develop yet.
My college boyfriend and I were trying to follow this line of reasoning when we got engaged...but as much as we tried to make allowances for "little" differences and for "immaturities," it simply wasn't right. I remember reading an article on Boundless answering the question "What if you don't 'just know?'" and I was trying to take that advice to heart and marry someone who was "good on paper" even though I had serious hesitations.
Please, please, please take a balenced view on this. We aren't talking about small decisions...we are talking about the rest of people's lives. No marriage counselor I have talked with has said that one should go ahead and get married without confidence, but rather has story after story of people who "went ahead" in spite of hesitations, and is left with a struggling marriage and tremendous regret.
49. xeres said the following at 1:58 PM on Jul 2
Yuri,
are you saying marriage isn't important to God and that desiring a mate is in of itself? I hope that's not what you are saying.
50. Lauren said the following at 2:03 PM on Jul 2
comment # 28 Justice:
I think you might need to read today's boundless aritcle!
51. xeres said the following at 2:20 PM on Jul 2
Part of the reason is people in American culture are generally developing a dehumanized and detached view of life and relationships. It can be extremely numbing. American men and women in general see each other as the rivals to the point where even a platonic friendship between the opposite sex becomes a landmine. International student admitted that being single or being marriage in the U.S. is a burden than a blessing. They acknowledges the freedom but they isn't much genuine community spirit in the places they live in order to share the freedom and joys come with singleness and marriage. They wondered how can people live in America and not go crazy with loneliness and hurt feelings
52. Craig said the following at 2:59 PM on Jul 2
I think "Farmer Tom" is a bit over the top in his anger towards many women; certainly the strength, intellect and spirit of American women is attractive, and one of the reasons I can't imagine marrying a foreigner. But I think the ladies who are reacting harshly to him are overshooting as well. Here's the truth: No real man really wants a doormat for a wife, but we don't want a competitor either, nor just a slightly more feminine version of ourselves.
Again, I think Farmer Tom overstates the case, and I understand that women prefer not to be referred to as maids. Nor should they be. But the domestic tranquility that a wife and family can bring is, for many men, one of the primary motivators towards marriage. Is it so wrong for a traditional man who wants to work hard to support his wife and family to want a traditional effort by his wife at home? None of that is to say that the traditional man won't support his wife's career ambitions as well--at certain stages of life. But wanting a woman--fundamentally--to care for his domestic needs and those of his children is a genuine desire that shouldn't be discouraged, particularly in men who are willing to measure up to their end of that particular bargain.
In general, I think we need less anger, both from the men and women on this topic. Guys, acknowledge that women today are smart, educated and spirited, with dreams of their own to make a difference in the world. And acknowledge that on the whole that's a very good thing, and will only enrich your life and that of your children. And gals, understand that as much as men may appreciate your spirit, intelligence, and professional aspirations, these qualities are not at the center of our desire for you or for marriage. We do want partners and lovers, yes. But substantively--and sometimes subconsciously--men desire the attributes that are unique to women. Your ability to make a house into a home and a center of energy and life; the domestic peace and care for family that you can create by your presence and effort; and yes, a sexual outlet that is pleasing to God. These also are very good things, that we simply cannot have without you.
Too many men--and women--are spurned or made to feel guilty for wanting things from marriage that have always been core, primary motivators towards marriage. We can't take away those motivators and expect the drive towards marriage to remain the same.
A lot of anger out there...
53. Hope said the following at 3:16 PM on Jul 2
I was terrified of relationships and getting dumped but then read 1 John 4:18 which says "there is no fear in love..."
Stop worrying, people! After being convicted by that verse I did take a chance on someone and was dumped not once but multiple times. Each time I thought I would go crazy but am gradually deepening my understanding of love, which is cool and not something I recommend missing out on.
54. DannieA said the following at 3:24 PM on Jul 2
Justice: there are some women out there who do care about their bodies and excercise faithfully no matter what.
Lauren...Justice is just fine. He was actually honest.
55. Suzanne said the following at 3:46 PM on Jul 2
Hey, BB.
Thanks for the feedback. The emphasis of my post certainly was not to accuse men of making excuses. I believe the line you're referring to is, "While I don't doubt this fear is valid, it sounds a little like justification to me." If you read the entire article about Weisman, you will learn he is a rather extreme case...49-years-old, in and out of relationships, never married. My "it sounds a little like justification to me" was in reference to him. Of course, I understand no one--man or woman--wants to get into a bad marriage. However, there comes a point where one may be hiding behind this "fear" and missing out on something good. That was the point I was making.
56. Yuri said the following at 5:40 PM on Jul 2
Xeres, I don't follow. Can you rephrase your question? Thanks.
To the rest, I've been reading more comments. One thing I'm noticing is a double standard. Men are expected to conform to their traditional roles, but women aren't. I'm seeing arguments for a wife having a career and being educated. Women don't seem to be expected to conform to being in submission to their husband, yet men are still expected to live in their traditional role.
57. Adam T. said the following at 5:49 PM on Jul 2
Amir and Farmer Tom, you guys need to write a marriage book together - it'd be second to none. ;)
58. Mike said the following at 7:10 PM on Jul 2
Speaking as a divorced man (and I realize I'm not the normal demographic for this site), I'm not so sure it's bad marriages that scare men so much as divorce. It's the most devastating thing I've ever experienced - far and away worse than my mother's death or any other negative emotional event in my life.
There are five significant losses a human being can suffer: Loss of a child, loss of a spouse, a significant financial reversal, loss of a home, and loss of a relationship with a child. In a typical divorce, a man suffers four of the five. The woman suffers one, maybe two.
Others have already enumerated the financial devastation. (As an example, when I married, I had $250,000 in stock. After the divorce, I was left with $7,000.) Dad still pays income taxes on his full salary, but doesn't get to deduct the kids on his taxes; they aren't dependents. He has to file as Single, which means a higher tax rate. (I pay twice in taxes what I did when I was married - but make the same salary.) Dad doesn't get any of the child support back during extended visitation periods, like over summer vacation. Mom doesn't pay taxes on child support, but gets to deduct the kids. As a result, child support awards can leave Dad with no way to pay his bills or exercise visitation - cutting Dad completely out of his children's lives.
Now, add to that the fact that the woman is typically given custody of the children (physical custody). Under such orders, the parent with primary physical custody has "final decision authority", generally defined as "in the event of a disagreement". As a practical matter, this means "sole decision authority" - because if Mom wants to make the call, she just says, "I disagree. We'll do it my way." This basically gives all authority over the children to Mom - in a reversal of proper Biblical roles. So, despite the fact that Dad is still responsible for supporting them, he has no authority or rights - which is also devastating emotionally and psychologically.
Scared yet, guys? You should be.
I think this site would be well served to be a little more understanding towards men's reluctance to risk the kind of ruination brought about by the divorce laws we're living under nowadays.
59. khalil said the following at 7:20 PM on Jul 2
As a bachelor, and a potentially confirmed bachelor, yes....I am a virgin and plan to remain as such until either death or marriage.
60. Kevin said the following at 8:17 PM on Jul 2
Hey, Farmer Tom, how are you getting online in 1955?
61. Rachael said the following at 8:50 PM on Jul 2
Justice (28),
I wonder if part of the reason for you seeing this is your location...(like city vs. countryside/suburb, or state..?)
62. Rachael said the following at 9:01 PM on Jul 2
Dawnson (24),
Yes, people change...but I wonder if that likelihood of finding drastic changes will be lower if you find someone in their mid 20s on up or someone who has already experienced adventure and is ready to see the mundane as an adventure, or with someone who isn't always dreaming about the 'big'...
I know age isn't the telling factor, but, someone who has already experienced a bit of adventure and life may not have that lingering wonder 'what if I had...'? Then again, some adventure people keep craving it...I was talking with a gal (28 yrs, I think) today who, it seemed to me already had overseas experience but was contemplating going overseas again and it seemed that age was one of her considerations...
I guess for me I have a desire to get married and have a family, and I don't feel a need to experience 'adventure-adventure' even though the person I'm seeing seems to have an adventurous spirit and it seems that adventure lies ahead. But I'm not flooded with contemplations of doing the 'big' as much as I used to...it's toned down. And I'm almost 28. I didn't ever intentionally choose 'adventure' over a husband, though.
Once again I find myself rambling. Sorry if you can't get my point or if I have no point :)
63. farmer Tom said the following at 9:49 PM on Jul 2
first to 44. Lauren,
very good, now take what the apostle Paul said in Titus chapter 2 and plug it into that passage you quoted.
3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5To be discreet, chaste keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Your reading of Proverbs 31 is in error because you are trying to project your early 21 century feminist mindset onto Scripture.
The woman in Proverbs 31 was not more a nine to five working girl than I'm a brain surgeon. She was manager of her husbands household, a mother to her childrenher children raise up and call her blessed she did not send her children off to day care so that she could do power point presentations for the corporate brass. You are confusing the role of wife and mother, manager of the home, with that of a pawn in the cesspool of office work or corporate paper pushing. Wife and mother are to be honored, working girl-corporate stiff, not so much.
52 Craig, yes I'm a bit over the top, on purpose, and no it's not anger, it is sarcasm, I've dealt with too many young ladies who confuse working girl with wife and mother, I find their disdain for the traditional wife and mother to be revealing. They want marriage, some even claim to want it badly, yet the have adopted the feminist lifestyle and agenda, then blame men when the men refuse to marry women who have rejected traditional marriage and family.
Why should I be angry, I'm happily married, have four wonderful children(don't tell them I said they they'll get big heads) and for the most part I live a life of ease. I simply want to point out the inconsistency in those women who claim to want marriage, yet reject the Biblical and traditional roles of the wife and mother. So I tend to use "over the top" sarcasm to point out this inconsistency.
57. Adam T., seriously who would read it? I'm just a stupid farmer who believes that God's plan for marriage and family is still the same today as it was in Jesus day, Don't you understand how outdated and ancient those ideas are, come on man we're enlightened now!?!
60. Kevin, how long you been a christian-feminist?? Think the Bible is an outdated, useless old book do ya??
64. Em said the following at 10:14 PM on Jul 2
preach on, sassy sister.
an interesting study: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/download/Biblicalsinglenessbnd.pdf
65. John Brunson said the following at 10:33 PM on Jul 2
So, here's what I'm not getting: I fail to see how exactly being a man means getting married to show how much of a man you are. If that's the case, then I think we can safely take Jesus and Paul out of the equation.
Then we bring I Corinthians 7 up, and proclaim that this an exception, not a rule. To a point, I agree. Most people will marry. But it seems after reading this and other articles that your manhood is based on whether or not you are married or not. Why? I just don't see what it has to do with being a man.
So, not marrying is a sin? And where in scripture (not in traditions) can you show me this? I am not interested in traditions. I'm far more interested in what God has to say on the matter. And thus far, I'm not finding a scriptural argument, but I am finding an argument based on traditions of men. It therefore becomes a matter of opinion, not inspired truth.
I understand... singleness isn't for everyone. Most people do marry. That's fine. I'm not disparaging you for your choice, but I am asking you leave me to mine. Even scripture commands us to "work our our salvation with fear and trembling."
Those with the desire to marry are no more second class citizens in God's Kingdom than those who choose not to. To pit these two groups against each other further divides the church. And this would seem to me exactly what is happening.
I would caution men to be very careful who they marry. This is an age where your manhood is distorted by all: By Society (As materialism in the office all the way down to the entertainment we celebrate is perverted. Males as portrayed as idiots, sex-crazed, violent drunks who desire to get ahead at the office, marry and have two and a half kids with the big house and white picket fence.)and sometimes even by the American church itself (Because they seem to think that men owe women marriage. Or perhaps the inverse that God doesn't desire for men to marry. Neither of which seem scripturally sound)
Here's what I can tell you about men from scripture:
1. We are Created in the Image of God. (Genesis 1:26-27)
2. Men weren't created to be alone, but for community (Genesis 2:18, and I think there's some importance to the word "help meet" in the greek, but I'll leave that to everyone's perusal.)
3. Marriage isn't the end all and be all of what God desires. (Luke 20:34-35)
That's probably an oversimplification, but I don't think being a male is simple. Or at least as simple as people would make it out to be.
66. Adam T. said the following at 4:49 AM on Jul 3
Farmer Tom,
Adam T., seriously who would read it?
Well, with gold like this:
They want marriage, some even claim to want it badly, yet the have adopted the feminist lifestyle and agenda, then blame men when the men refuse to marry women who have rejected traditional marriage and family.
I'd buy ten thousand copies. ;)
67. Farmer Pete said the following at 6:02 AM on Jul 3
Kelly (33)
Yes, at 44 I'm still a virgin.
I've always considered it as being faithful to the wife that I've not yet met (that I know of) Call it my wedding gift to her.
I'm not sure that I can add much more to this discussion.
Am I frightened?
Maybe I am.
Maybe I'm frightened of hurting someone. Maybe I'm frightened of taking on a job that I'm not competent to perform. Maybe I'm not selfish enough to do these things while I'm depressed, angry, and unstable.
Pass me my pot-sherd and point me to the nearest ash-heap. I'll join Job and wait until God decides to change things. Just don't try and lay a bunch of the guilts on me because I'm not out there throwing red roses at every single female between the ages of 16 and 60.
Peter
68. Joanna D said the following at 6:08 AM on Jul 3
One thing I'm noting that some have written (particular Justice #28) is about women letting themselves go. Oh, how I hate to hear that phrase, and it is one reason why I am hesitant when it comes to marriage.
It seems as though many men are under the perception that women (physically) shouldn't change. That at 40 y/o, I'm going to look just the same as when I was 20y/o. I'm not an actress that has her own trainer, nutrtionist, and subsists on Master Cleanse nor do I want to be.
Yes, I think we should keep ourselves looking clean, nice, and do what we can to maintain... but, to act as though should maintain a Playboy physique is depressing. My mother was a size 4 when she married, and 30 years later she is anything but. Much of it is due to illness (but that should not be a Get Out of Fat card, peaople change). My father still loves her, still helps to take care of her when she can't get up due to arthritis, can't cook because the smells make her so nauseous, etc... So, because she "let herself go" he should look somewhere else? Or when another man sees her in church, he can use that as an excuse?
When I marry, I truly hope that he is marrying me because he finds me beautiful/sexy/whatever, but people change and if I gain 20 pounds over the years (or 60 pounds) that he still loves me. Maybe a reason why women of the world exercise and fastidiously diet is because the world (and many Christians) have an idea that beauty is the end all be all, and if you don't fit into it, God help you. Why doesn't Boundless talk about the world's fascination with beauty, or the fear of becoming fat because it's become such an ostracizing feature...
This has went off topic I'm afraid, I do apologize.
69. Christina (in green) said the following at 6:44 AM on Jul 3
Farmer Tom said:
Adam T., seriously who would read it?
Seriously, if your ideas were REALISTIC (not saying your actual beliefs are not, but the sarcasm you put into it is misleading), and the majority of christian men wholeheartedly agreed with you to the point that it was hard to meet a guy in the Christian world who DIDN'T agree with it, the women would start reading it, too.
Honestly, I think Amir and Farmer Tom need a woman's perspective when trying to write the book as well so they stay balanced, but I think it would be a great idea =p
To be quite honest, the 21st century view of gender roles, the 1960's view of gender roles, the 19th century's view of gender roles...none of them are perfect models. Its hard to find anything in history that IS.
Farmer Tom, there are instances where the wife of Proverbs 31 is making money.
Lauren, the wife in Proverbs 31 has absolutely no responsibility to any (earthly) man except her husband (unlike today's "working girl" as Farmer Tom puts it).
Farmer Tom, Lauren is correct that there are different seasons in a woman's life. Simply put, without kids, managing a house seriously don't take that long. And not every woman is blessed with children of her own - even if she is in her 20's and at the top of her reproductive years.
Lauren, managing a household still takes more time than a 40+hour/week career is going to allow - and that is the primary responsibility of the Proverbs 31 wife...ergo, managing your husband's home is more important than meeting your boss's business goals.
The role of support is a matter of priorities.
When you are single, you support yourself. There are many ways of going about it, whether you work a career to save up money for when you aren't making as much or live with your parents as you take on a part time job and focus on learning to manage your future home.
When you get married, its not longer all about you, and your focus is now on your husband (just like his income is no longer at his disposal, but is being provided to support you). Putting your husband first, in my experience, is not compatible with ANY job out there. From waitressing at a diner to being a paper pusher for a major engineering firm.
When you have kids, THEY are your first and foremost responsibility. Followed by your husband. And then a money making endeavor if you have the time and energy for it.
It is NOT work, kids, husband; Husband, work, kids; kids, work, husband.
There are certain responsibilities here that a woman has. Just like its the husband's role to make that possible.
And WHY is the woman stuck in the house with the kids and hubby gets to be the "steak"?
Because God designed women to be the ones that carry the child for 9 months. He gave them the ability to feed and protect them for the first 9 months of life out of the womb. He designed it so that babies are fully relient on their mothers. And the mother's responsibility is to that child. Taking the time out to do that is (as many people have pointed out on both male and female sides) detrimental to a career. But that is your responsibility when that baby is put in your womb...for this season. It does not make sense for the husband to have the secondary job when his wife is out having kids and not making money, no matter how temporary. Which is why when a woman is making money, her job should be the secondary one (I'd accept in this season, but the guys may have a different opinion on that...). Not vice-versa.
70. IMO said the following at 8:52 AM on Jul 3
Christina (in green) #70
In regard to your comment, "When you have kids, THEY are your first and foremost responsibility. Followed by your husband."
Not True!! Husband first. The husband is the wife's first and primary ministry. This isn't just my 2 cents. It's a biblical and practical concept.
Maybe this is why some marriages fall apart...the husband is put on the backburner after the kids...
71. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:59 AM on Jul 3
Justice says:
Yeah, I've seen that--just as there are men who are irresponsible, don't take care of themselves, rarely come to church--but I can't say that most women I've seen in church are like that any more than most men are like what I'm describing.
Can't say the non-Christian women are any better as a group. I practically live at the gym after work hours, and when it comes to obesity I cannot say that the Christian women (or men) are any worse than the non-Christian women (or men).
There will always be cases where that happens, but--having been in a fair number of churches--it has not been my observation that the married women are generally like that.
Let's not allow particular horror stories take our eyes off the more realistic picture.
72. Rachael said the following at 9:04 AM on Jul 3
IMO (7),
Probably the kids will steal the attention of both parents and the parents will have less time for each other. Kind of the way it goes, I think...
Sure the husband and wife should still love each other, but, when kids come into the mix it can be a 24-7 deal, at least in certain phases...
73. NSL said the following at 9:22 AM on Jul 3
Let me just add:
God FIRST;
husband/wife second;
kids third;
etc...
74. Tasha said the following at 10:09 AM on Jul 3
Children should never replace the husband in order of importance. A woman first makes a commitment to her husband, (ideally) then children come along. To dismiss the husband as secondary to the children is to make him a sperm donor and less of a human. It is exactly this type of opinion that leads to the neglect of the man's needs. Once the husband learns that the children are more important than him, well its just downhill from their. Women need to consider how they are treating their husbands, and honestly ask themselves if that's how they want to be treated. I know any woman would be on the phone instantly complaining to her friends about her husband's neglect.
As a young woman, I have to agree with farmer Tom. Today it is considered ridiculous that men actually have needs. Wives are supposed to meet the needs that she is able to just as husbands are supposed to meet those of the wife. It is out of love and respect that we meet our husband's needs, and it is out of love and respect that the husband meets the wife's needs.
It has been researched and proven that one of the greatest needs of the child is for the father to love their mother.
75. Justice said the following at 10:42 AM on Jul 3
Rachael,
Thanks
Joanna,
Whay do you hate to hear what I said? Your mom is completely different thatn what Iw as talking about. I've seen peers in their 20's a year after they are married almost unrecognizable from gaining to much weight! For the record I live in Southern California, not East Texas. Now that I've moved to San Diego, women do take better care of themselves, I still see women in their 50's who, while not that same as a teenager, keep a healthy body. In 20 minutes you could run 2 miles very slowly and if you did that every day, I'm sure that would maintain your weight.
to the man talking about divorce, I completely understand. Take for instance Cali's no fault law: a coworker of my step-dad's caught his wife cheating on him, literally, with a camera. The courts threw it out, she divorced him and took half of everything, including half of his retirement because she never worked!
76. Mike said the following at 11:00 AM on Jul 3
Tasha and IMO and NSL - as a man for whom being third place (behind the kids and the dog) was a constant source of irritation during his marriage, can I just say:
THANK YOU!!!!
:-)
77. Christina (in green) said the following at 11:19 AM on Jul 3
Tasha et al.
Children are a bit more needy than the husband. If all are clamoring for food, I'm more likely to tell my husband to make his own sandwich while i feed the clamoring children that I don't dare trust with a butter knife and a glass jar of jelly.
I'm more likely to put aside a night of loving and cuddling when my 1 year old is having a hard time teething and needs something cold or and is screeming all night long.
Realistically, your children are the priority until you teach them how to do things themselves. As they learn, you free up more time for the husband.
78. Amir Larijani said the following at 12:47 PM on Jul 3
Christina: Tasha and IMO and NSL are correct on this. If the kids get ANY inkling that they have a greater priority than your husband, you will find yourself attempting to defuse a proverbial nuclear device.
Kids are already going to be naturally inclined to play parents against each other--isn't it amazing how Total Depravity works???--and that will get jacked up an order of magnitude if they get ANY idea that they are more important than he is.
I've seen a couple marriages darn-near break up due to that, and the only way that was resolved was both husband and wife decided that their covenant mate carried higher priority than the children.
79. Autumn said the following at 1:01 PM on Jul 3
I've seen this fear of marriage very evidently in one of my close guy-friends recently. His parents divorced, and his home life, with either parent, was never good. He hasn't had many opportunities to see what a good, Christian marriage looks like. The girls that he's dated have been what he calls a "step down" from what his actual standards are. When I asked him why he kept dating these girls who weren't good for him or his relationship with God, he said that if he dated a girl that was up to his standards, he would have to think about marriage as a distinct possibility, which he said scared him to death. I think he's started to overcome his fears, but it's going to be a slow process.
I said all that to say this, judging from my very limited experience, I would say that some guys have a good reason to fear marriage. They might not have had couples in their life who exhibited a solid christian marriage, so they don't have anything to "go on" so to speak. But that shouldn't be an excuse for them to avoid it altogether. No matter what fears we have, our God is big enough to conquer them all.
80. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:15 PM on Jul 3
I think that the priority thing is being mixed up between caring/nuturing vs I don't know how to describe it.
Seriously, my baby is going to need his diaper changed more than my husband is going to need [insert need here].
There's a difference between catering to that need and giving my children whatever the hell they want when my husband has already said "No."
There's a difference between prioritizing child care and elevating their standing above your husband.
I know that the husband is the more important (though for some reason I cringe at that as if the kids aren't important). I know that my allegiance is to my husband, and not my kids.
81. Mike said the following at 1:40 PM on Jul 3
Christina's comment (80) is right on. Women can easily blur the line between a child's needs and a child's wants (no offense, ladies) because of the natural gift of nurturing God placed within them. That gift will make you want to cater to the child at the expense of the marriage relationship, and you have to fight it.
I'll give just one basic example. During my marriage, I wanted the children to have a reasonably early bedtime so the wife and I could have an hour or two to ourselves each night without the constant interruption from little voices. She flatly refused, on the grounds that "I'm not going to do that to my children" (as if enforcing a bedtime were somehow akin to child abuse) and "You're an adult; you can cope. They're children; they can't."
Now, my mistake was not standing my ground and insisting on it, based on the fact that (a) bedtimes are good for children because they enforce structure, discipline, regular sleep patterns, etc., and (b) the marriage relationship is more important than catering to the wants of the children to be up at night later than they should. (Guys, take a hint: Sometimes you have to enforce good family discipline even when your wife doesn't want to and withstand the slings and arrows.)
There's a difference between a hungry infant who needs the immediate attention of its parent, and a child who simply wants to stay up late because he doesn't want to miss what the parents are saying to each other. Similar situations will often occur, and, believe me, children will run your household if you let them. Ladies, you must resist the temptation to let them. And gentlemen, sometimes being the leader means making unpopular decisions....even if it results in liberal servings of cold shoulder and hot tongue. :-)
82. M.R. said the following at 1:58 PM on Jul 3
One more thing to say about this "is the husband more important than the kids" thing:
Put your husband first, and your kids will thank you later. As a 17-year old, seeing my parents scream at each other after years and years of neglecting their relationship was pure hell. Seeing either one of them miserable - my mom or my dad - was hell. These things don't come out until you're after your "ME MOM ME" years.
Alternately, give your children independence, and they will thank you for it later on. There is pride in independence, in learning early on how to do things for yourself, how to entertain yourself, make your own lunch, plan your own life, etc. There is only sadness and chaos for coddled children who suddenly learn at 17 that their parents are getting a divorce because they are "strangers to each other".
Thankfully, this didn't happen in my case since, by some miracle (and through many struggles) they have a good relationship now. There is nothing more joyful than in knowing that my parents love each other and make each other happy. There is no greater gift you can give your children than a happy marriage!
This is why I think you should never get married JUST because you want children. Marry because you love the person, period. That love will overflow and nourish your children and the community around you.
83. Lyn Freeman said the following at 9:38 PM on Jul 3
Wow! Where to begin?! So many comments got me thinking here.
First off, I don't like to hear or take a tone of one sex attacking the other or playing the blame game against the other. Bottom line: Men and Women are equally sinners, both totally depraved and both in desperate need of our Lord's grace and forgiveness. So as the Biblical analogy goes, "First remove the beam from your own eye before you remove the speck from your brother's."
A little background about myself, I am a 25 year-old single, never married woman who has honest, in-depth conversations with my young adult brother (age 23) about these very issues. I have a bit of a glimpse into what men need and want in a wife from hearing his perspectives. I am one of those women who would love to be married (and still hope to be in the not too distant future) yet I have only had one serious inquiry (several years ago) and he seemingly was not ready to support a wife or take on the responsibilities of being married. His own employment history and lack of work ethic made this abundantly clear to me. So in this case, I was not being fearful of marriage but rather "prudent" as many men have wisely pointed out here. Looking back I also would freely confess that I was not ready to "settle down" and take on the responsibility of being a married woman. I am thankful I didn't marry that man at age 20, yet I feel that I am in a much better position and more prepared to be married in the near future even though no prospects are on my horizon.
Now, on to the points I wanted to make:
In reply to Farmer Tom on #22: As a young woman your comments made me cringe, but they did have some truth to them. For the most part women don't understand the genuine needs of men on many levels. Men are just as often or perhaps even more misunderstood than women in regards to relationships. But please, PLEASE don't go making over-generalized, sexist sounding comments against women based on your perceived ideas of why they are not married. It has been my observation that Christian women in their later 20's or 30's are not married for a variety of reasons but in most cases I have seen it is A) because they have never been given the chance or else B) the relationship(s) they were in did not progress to marriage. One thing I do like about your comments: You are honest and you speak your mind for what you think. :) And you seem to have an ornery spark.
To Quote Farmer Tom: "The current feminist thinking is as follows, go to the best college you can afford, borrow as much money an necessary to get the good paying career, have several boyfriends to maintain an active social life, marry when it fits into your career, have children when it fits into your career, or when you reach 40, then when or if the marriage or children interfere with the career, divorce the useless man now that you have the trophy children and make him pay child support and alimony because he wasn't rich enough for you to quit your career and stay at home."
"You want men to desire marriage? Then return marriage to what it was!! Women serving as a help meet to their husbands, satisfying his sexual needs, cooking for him, cleaning up after him, treating your marriage as the most important thing in your life,(not another notch on the career path), taking care of his(your) children, making him the sole bread winner, while you stay at home and train your children in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord".
I think some of your perceptions are missing the mark, but as I said before there is a grain of truth to it also. I don't know about other parts of the country where the culture may be a bit more liberal, but here in the midwest where I live I don't know a single Christian woman who would plan to follow the pattern you described above in the 1st paragraph. Sure there are plenty of secular, feminist-minded women who would follow this pattern but not those who desire to live their lives according to God's Word and be godly wives and mothers. As to your idea of how women need to be in order to attain marriage (2nd paragraph), I would just say that I know of personally or am acquainted intimately with several (around 20-25) single women who would hold to this type of lifestyle and philosophy for women. Unfortunately, many of them are in their late 20's-30's, have virtually the same ideology you purport and yet they are still single much to their own confusion and against their deepest desires. I don't know if you are familiar with the Vision Forum circle of folks, but these young women to which I am referring mostly are associated with this circle. So don't go saying it is all the WOMEN'S fault that they are not married and that it is chiefly a result of their ideology regarding marriage and family life. Of my friends in the area I live all of them adhere to traditional gender roles and most of them have never attained college degrees or have big-time careers. I was thinking of the closest friends I have and most of them are unmarried with no college degree or career while the one close friend who did marry 2 years ago had a college degree and was working on an advanced degree when her future husband entered the scene. She was also working full-time and living in her own apartment. Now, she has drastically cut her hours although she works per diem just to earn a little extra so they can pay off their mortgage sooner. College degree or not, she is a very godly woman and a great compliment to her husband. As for myself I have a college degree and work full-time (60 hours/2 weeks) but I also live at home with my parents and siblings. I look for ways to serve my family at home and our Christian community on my days off. I work with children in ministry and have used my training (registered nurse) to minister to a few women in our local church assembly by attending Dr's appts. with them and answering medical related questions. And just as a brief side note, I take major issue with some of the teachings about husband and wife relationships/men's and women's roles coming out of the Vision Forum circles so don't think I am endorsing their views here. I prefer the complimentarian view that ministries like Sovereign Grace Ministries and Focus on the Family takes in regards to men's and women's roles. I would highly recommend for both men and women to read books such as "Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood" edited by Wayne Grudem. It is balanced and Biblically crafted as opposed to being man-centered and legalistic like some other views in conservative circles.
On the statement Farmer Tom made about what men want in marriage: You probably speak more truth here than many men would ever dare to admit. The problem is that most young women, especially of the conservative Christian variety have very little knowledge of what is important or most needed by a man in marriage. They think he needs good food and clean clothes and a place to sleep and a kept house (which he does need) but they completely miss the idea that he has physical drives that are closely linked to emotional health and psychological needs. Some of these women seriously need to read a book like "For Women Only" by Shaunti Feldham or "Love and Respect" by Dr. Eggerson. I, too, was one of those women who had no idea about men's physical drives and thought that the men who expressed a need for their drives to be met either had major issues in self-control or else were corrupt heathens. I had no earthly idea that normal, honest Christian men struggled with these same desires until I read "FWO." Then my eyes were widely opened and I began to view and appreciate men differently. And to support these idea from Scripture I would reference Romans 1.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And 1 Corinthians 11:7-12
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
I just point out these passages and the boldened verses to say that wives were created by God to fulfill the physical needs of their husbands. That is part of how we (women) were designed. If you can't handle that then take it up with the Creator (though I wouldn't recommend it). I also want to be quick to say that this in no way gives men a free license to treat their wives as sex slaves and demand that their needs be met. This is where the picture of Christ giving himself for His bride and laying down His life for her comes into play. There most likely will be times when a husband has to surrender his own desires for his wife (pregnancy, illness, times of uncleanness, etc.) It works both ways in a marriage. In a picture perfect world a wife would be able and willing to meet all the physical, emotional and psychological needs of her husband and the husband would lay his life down selflessly and consistently for his wife. Sadly, none of us live in a perfect world since all have been marred by sin.
So ladies, just remember that the vast majority of men do have physical drives and it isn't wrong for them to desire marriage, in part, as a legitimate way to satisfy these drives. That was the way God, the Creator, designed them and that was the way He designed us in His infinite wisdom (which I have an incredibly difficult time comprehending, but then neither am I omniscient).
One last point and I will try to wrap this up:
To Justice #28 who mentioned wives who "gain loads of weight" and "don't take care of themselves": Men can and indeed do the very same things. As a nurse I have cared for and even bathed men who were 200+ lbs overweight and had disgusting conditions like yeast growing in their skin folds and wounds that would not heal because of poor circulation and deplorable hygiene. These men had women who stuck with them through good and bad despite their apparent "letting themselves go." I would just say that our primary motivation for "keeping ourselves up" ought to be that we, as believers, are temples of the Holy Spirit and that our bodies belong to God as our Creator and Redeemer. I have already made up my mind that if I ever get married and have children I will never let myself get above 140 lbs. which would include pregnancy weight. I know that may sound unreasonable to some women but I have a very petite frame and stature so I have to be a bit more careful with my weight range. I never want to end up being one of those people who have to be physically lifted from bed by a mechanical lift or turned from side to side by 3+ people because of my excess weight and lack of self-control. It is disgusting and awful for women to get like this but it is equally horrible for men who allow themselves to get this way. If I ended up married to such a man would I file for divorce or seek separation? No way. I would have made a vow before God to be married to my husband "for better or worse, until death do us part." I hope the man I will marry, Lord willing, would have the same Biblical perspective toward me.
Oh, and just for the record, I really appreciated Craig's response in #52. Thanks for commenting, Craig. I am grateful for your gracious tone toward all.
Blessings to all who desire to follow our Lord Jesus Christ.
84. Nisey said the following at 4:56 AM on Jul 4
To Mike, Amir, Obewan and all of my other "Men-must-be-more-cautious-about- marriage-because-they're-more- likely-to-get-the-short-end-of-the-stick":
Both men and women should be equally cautious when considering marriage because...THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN A DIVORCE! Of all the divorced people I've ever met, both men and women/petitioners and respondents, I can't recall one who wasn't absolutely devastated by its effects! In a divorce, EVERYONE GETS THE SHORT END OF THE STICK!
And now that we've made that point, let's clear up some misconceptions about those soon-to-be divorcees just waiting to lure some poor chump to the altar so she can, eventually, seize the kids, the house,the bank accounts and anything else she can get her hands on.
First of all, you gentlemen are absolutely right in that there is a greater chance that the woman may be awarded physical custody of the children. And that means she has the "priviledge" of being responsible for the kids 24/7 except on that alternate weekend when dad may, or may not, decide to spend time with his children. Oh yeah! The female champion of broken vows has the "benefit" of single handedly staying awake with sick children, going to school functions, transporting the kids to and from church related activities, trying to find appropiate daycare, and being the protector and provider for her home. AND, she takes great joy in having to do, by herself, what God intended to be done by two people. What a prize!
And I can only speak for myself. But,as a woman, I would unequivocally prefer my husband's presence and protection to a child support and/or alimony payment.
In essence, EVERYONE SHOULD USE PRUDENCE when selecting a marriage partner because, contrary to popular belief-divorce is no picnic-I don't care who you are!
85. Kelly said the following at 5:46 AM on Jul 4
Just wanted to say thanks to the confirmed bachelors who have answered my question. Two things spring to mind:
1) Either you have been gifted with celibacy (like Paul), or
2) You give me hope that God truly can help men to wait. :D
86. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:51 AM on Jul 5
Mike, (#81)
Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say =p
87. Judi K. said the following at 10:44 AM on Jul 5
We spend too much time trying to please society than time in the Word or what does God want for our life. I don't know of anyone (in my circle of experience over 59y.)that has NOT been afraid to marry at some time in their courtship.
Divorce or death (as with my 1st husband of 14 1/2 yr.) is aweful for both parties let alone the children or step-children. I wonder if THAT really is the issue re. marriage vs. no marriage.
A sound relationship with the Lord will enhance every other relationship. He is fine tuning you singles for the person HE WANTS to share your life. Until that time enjoy your singleness as much as you can. SERVE OTHERS, LOVE OTHERS
Whatever your station in life is remember-----HE LOVES YOU and WANTS THE BEST FOR YOU!!!!!!!!! God Bless you all.
88. BDB said the following at 11:02 AM on Jul 5
You know, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of American women don't spend much time thinking about how they can contribute to a man's calling in life. I have an example to illustrate.
One of the things I wanted to do in Cambodia was visit the Children's Hospital. A friend of a friend is the major donor and visionary behind the project. Being half way around the world, I wanted to see it for myself.
My church has a rule on mission trips: you can't go anywhere alone. You must take someone else with you. So being on a medical missions trip, I figured that people would jump at the chance to tour what may be the best hospital in Cambodia.
Bad assumption. The other Americans pretty much wanted to either stay in the air-conditioned hotel or go shopping. Given how many hours I'd listed to the single women complain about their relationships, I was surprised that no one was willing to get out of their box. Even nurses who work in pediatrics weren't interested.
I ended up going with a Canadian who had moved to Cambodia and married a Cambodian woman. He was involved in a communiy health initiative, and had taken children to this hospital before. He was very interested in seeing the executive-level tour.
It took about 10 minutes for him to convince his wife to go with us. Eventually she reluctantly agreed because it was so important to him. It was very interesting - the westerners in the hospital greeted myself and the Canadian; the Cambodians greeted her. She came away very enthusiastic and started chattering away about a health-care project she was working on with a foundation to get donors. So, even though she was reluctant at first, it was worth it for her to go along and support him in his calling.
I'm not sure why American women seem so uninterested in supporting a man's calling. But it seems like it would be a lot easier for a man to trust a woman who saw his calling as important.
89. adam said the following at 12:53 AM on Jul 6
I agree with #82. I make it a law unto myself to avoid girls/women who "want to have a baby" rather than "want to have a lover/husband." A lot of women seem to want to have children, for the children, but leave the man out of the picture. It is interesting, and irritating, for me to observe in some people how they think they are entitled to having joy through this or that, completely unaware of the persecution and hardships they also will have to endure. In closing, I simply will not have anything to do with any woman who has any desire for children when it sounds like a selfish desire. I think a lot of young people foolishly think that kids are little angels and forget about their sin natures. I have a couple of nephews of are absolute monsters because of their mother. She constantly put the kids needs above my brother's, and spoiled and gave the kids whatever they wanted. Now their life is hell and those kids will most likely grow up to be jailbait. There absolutely needs to be proper authority in the household, starting with Jesus and His Word, then going down the food chain.
I think men are increasingly afraid of women who want to call the shots. It is not that the man fears that the woman is smarter or makes better decisions, if he is wise himself, he will listen to her wise counsel if she has it. What the men fear is a women undermining his authority. A woman showing respect to her man and getting his back is infinitely attractive.
90. Jessica said the following at 12:41 AM on Jul 7
No offense, guys, but I could write a whole article on this topic and yak about it forever if I could. Really, the cold hard truth is....Christian guys need to get a backbone, step up to the plate, and hit one out of the park- what I mean is- take the risk of at least asking a girl out. If the man won't make THAT move, what makes
him think he's going to get married, if he's passive the rest of his life. It's true that God brings the one you're supposed to marry in life, but if you're not open to the possibility that a certain person could be the One that God has for you, how are you going to know if you don't ask her out? I'm sorry, but with all due respect, i am not desperate to get married by any means, it's just that men need to realize that we Christian women are not getting any younger. Perhaps the "perfect" woman you were searching for- you already passed her by, when she was right in front of your face. Something to think about.
91. a sassy sister said the following at 10:02 AM on Jul 7
BDB:
I hate to break it to you, but to me, that's one of the things I am immediately considering in serious relationship with a Christian man---whether or not our gifts complement each other in what God has called us to do as one, especially when it comes to what the husband is called to do(which is why I think my friends and I are more attracted to men who know what they are called to do and are doing it!). I know that I am wired to be a helper, as a woman, and I firmly believe that. I am also an American woman, and many of my female friends and I share the same concerns. I would hope that the comment you made about American women is the result of your experiences with American women, and not a generalization.
And btw, support and encouragement are actions that believers are supposed to be doing for each other in the body of Christ---this is something that is supposed to be going on before marriage.
92. Tasha said the following at 10:47 AM on Jul 7
Some of the posts seem to indicate that men actually want their children taken away from them, that by the children going to the mother, the father is actually benefitting. Contrary to what the media says, there are many good men out there. Many of these men are married. However, they are married to women who are able to divorce them for any reason. In other words, because these good men aren't like soap opera or Gray's Anatomy actors, their wives can divorce them.
This is taken from the Church for Men message boards. Church for Men is a movement to address the lack of male attendance at church.
"Depressing is being assumed to be a child molester or predator based solely on being male note from clix - haven't experienced this bigotry; I've had to get fingerprinted and FBI checked several times
Depressing is knowing that if you chose to start a family your wife can take your children away on a whim with the government's help
Depressing is seeing your own brother physically assaulted by his unfaithful "Christian wife" and then the courts take his children, home and savings from him forcing him to move in with three other adults to split rent just so he can survive
Depressing is seeing your cousin's "Christian" wife divorce without cause, take the children, his home, his savings and run up an extra $40,000 in debt the week before deciding to divorce him
Depressing is knowing that VAWA pays "bounties" to DA's to prosecute innocent men who are often accused of nothing more than making the wife "feel" "emotionally threatened"
Depressing is hearing a friend describe how after working to put his "Christian" wife through college (including a few womens' studies courses) she comes home and informs him that he will quit his job and become a househusband. When he objects, she informs him that he has no choice or she will divorce him and he will never see his daughter again (knowing the custody laws favor her)
Do I need to go on? Unfortunately I could if needed....."
If I were a man, and a woman had this much government manipulation over me, I would refuse to marry. It is not a question of backbone, it is a question of not wanting to be destroyed financially and emotionally.
93. BDB said the following at 11:39 AM on Jul 7
A sassy sister (#91) wrote:
>>I would hope that the comment you made about American women is the result of your experiences with American women, and not a generalization. <<
Well, it's an observation about a specific group of people that's really the same as what I notice in the U.S. I know women who "talk" about their calling, but for many, it looks like empty rhetoric. They'd rather go shopping. I did meet women who weren't like that, but they were Canadians traveling alone.
And maybe that's the more important lesson: people with a calling are probably operating alone, not running with a pack to the mall. (Literally: there's a new air-conditioned mall in Phnom Penh.)
94. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:51 PM on Jul 8
A sassy Sister says:
I don't know it it's the general rule, but my experiences are similar to BDB's.
Jessica says:
That comment did nothing to advance the discussion in any meaningful direction.
What makes you think guys are standing around twiddling their thumbs? Are you drinking the Kool-Aid of the "marriage mandate" movement, too?
I could give you plenty of firsthand accounts of getting shot down by other Christian gals--who went on to marry non-believers, or who went on to self-destruct in some form or another, or who are now dead because of the stubbornness that broke us apart--to go with your accounts of passive men.
Kiesling provides a very balanced assessment of Christian singles in her book (Where Have All the Good Men Gone), and--quite frankly--she demonstrates that women are every bit as picky as the men.
As for risk-aversion and prudence, your comments are well short of any reasonable standard of fairness. Fact is, the overall divorce rate has gone up over the past 40 years, which increases the overall divorce risk for both sexes. The impact of divorce on the man is greater than it would have been 40 years ago.
Compounding matters, the older one gets, the greater the potential impact of a divorce. For example, if you marry at 30 and divorce at 40, the overall risk is less than if you married at 40 and divorced at 50. That is because--when thinking of career and long-term financial issues--the time horizon gets smaller as you get older.
Am I suggesting that men ought to quake in their boots? Hardly. On the other hand, a reasonable degree of prudence is in order.
95. Sarah Elizabeth said the following at 2:27 PM on Jul 8
There's something to be said for bibically seeking a spouse, keeping God at the center of your relationship, and letting it be known from the beginning that divorce is not an option.
yes divorce is messy and crazy and no you can't predict what will happen or how someone will treat you. But if you serve a GOd who is sovereign and as Big as the Bible says he is, then who are you to tell him you're not going to follow him command of marriage (this is of course exempting anyone called to singleness) becuase you're scared of potential divorce? guess what? you're human and fallible. She/He's human and fallible. You'll BOTH SCREW UP at times. However, God is bigger-let him be in charge
This isn't to say divorce may not be neccessary or that it may happen without you desiring it(for instance, if your spouse insists), however, We serve a GOd who can bring you through it. And other than building a godly foundation with a spouse and marrying someone who is seeking after Christ, that is the most we can do.
96. jnb said the following at 10:40 PM on Jul 9
cop out ? no. I have a terrible marriage. I had a wonderful life until I got married. I was so afraid of committing to the wrong person and then I did. Now I am stuck. If I didn't have a daughter I would leave in a heartbeat even though I hate divorce. Guys, don't take this lightly. Find someone fun loving and laid back and serious about God. Make sure they are emotionally stable. If people try to warn you before you get married, listen to them. They are usually more objective while you'll be hoping for the best. My only comfort is I'm almost 40 and my marriage will surely cause me to have a heart attack before 60.
97. Ken said the following at 9:06 AM on Jul 10
Dear Lauren in post #44,
I think this great portion of scripture has been twisted in our day to fit the "christian" feminists agenda.
It is obvious to me that the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 is committed to the care of her husband and children only. Not one word about a career outside the home. Re-read it again. The only mention of anything outside the home is a purchase, which has nothing to do with a career. And, you will quickly see that she uses the thing purchased to bless her children and husband. She feeds and clothes her children and husband-so much so that other men notice her husband and want to buy clothing from her. She also uses her crafty talents to bless the poor.
I'm sorry, not a word about a career outside the home-certainly not in civil or political matters.
But then again, this woman has children at home. The text says nothing about what the woman did after the children were grown.
God Bless!