Independence, Tennis and Singleness: Episode #24
by Motte Brown on 07/04/2008 at 7:44 AM
 iTunes | Listen Now/RSS |
It's appropriate that we have David on the show this week. You may remember that he sported a stars-and-stripes headband in his heyday in support of our troops during the first Gulf War ... though we really don't talk about that on the show.
But we do celebrate the 232nd anniversary of declaring our independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain with patriotic music from the Colorado Wranglers and a partial reading of the Declaration of Independence.
Now back to David Wheaton.
Roundtable -- 10:01
David Wheaton was such a gracious guest. He indulged some very personal questions about being a 39 year-old single. And he openly acknowledges how his career as a highly ranked tennis pro put him on a trajectory that made it difficult to meet godly, eligible young women. But he leaves little doubt that despite his desire for marriage and family, he feels he's in the center of God's will.
Culture -- 25:29
Though David Wheaton still plays professionally, he's transitioned well from tennis pro to author, speaker, and radio talk show host. After the Roundtable, he and Lisa talk about his book University of Destruction in light of the recent Pew Research study chronicling the large percentage of evangelicals who believe there are many paths to Heaven.
Hungry Years -- 45:25
This week we celebrate the 4th of July with a partial reading of the Declaration of Independence expertly voiced by our very own Dave Salkeld, engineer for The Boundless Show. So, as Lisa encourages, grab a slice of apple pie, sit back and relive this bit of history with us.
Inbox -- 49:49
Do Christian men experience more pressure to marry than non-Christians? Hear from a listener who is growing increasingly weary of being around happily married Christians while longing for a wife himself. Steve, Candice, Lisa and I offer our perspectives including, get those happily married Christians to help you out!
1. dana111 said the following at 8:52 AM on Jul 4:
Okay... men are supposed to pursue, right? So, why isn't this guy pursuing a wife? It sounds like he is waiting for God to plunk someone down in his lap without him having to actually do anything. Am I interpreting his views incorrectly? I don't get it. Women are called to wait patiently for God to provide a husband, men are encouraged to pursue a wife (Proverbs 18:22). A few podcast ago, you were talking about what it means to "settle." Mainly, you were referring to single women who are holding out for the perfect man, advising them to "throw away" their lists and find someone who loves God and loves them. If you advise women to do this, the same ideas should apply to men, right? So, is David being overly picky? Does he have some type of list that he refers to in order to determine what kind of woman he wants to marry? Or is he justifying his prolonged singleness by saying its just not "God's will" for him to be married yet?
2. Dave said the following at 9:13 AM on Jul 4:
But we do celebrate the 232nd anniversary of declaring our independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain with patriotic music from the Colorado Wranglers and a partial reading of the Declaration of Independence.
In other words this may be the first of your podcasts that I skip. (Does this mean that the podcast now has more reading from the Declaration of Independence than from the Bible?)
3. DannieA said the following at 11:32 AM on Jul 4:
In my opinion Dave...that comment was uncalled for.
Go live somewhere else then where you don't have freedom
4. Philip said the following at 12:09 PM on Jul 4:
I believe Boundless disagrees with David's lacking a sense of theological pressure to pursue marriage, and if so the panel were understandably polite in not saying that in the interview. From what I heard, I think David may be justified. It seems like he's under minimal internal pressure (eg. doesn't need the companionship, his marry someday attitude) or external circumstance (eg. a particular relationship opportunity) to get married, and he mentions Paul's argument about undivided devotion, so he may well be using his singleness well. Obviously I disagree with the gift of celibacy view.
5. Dave said the following at 2:12 PM on Jul 4:
DannieA (#3):
I had a couple of reasons for my comment.
First, I think that a lot of Americans tend to confuse church and state - e.g. the recent case of a Florida pastor who took a leave of absence after receiving threats following the removal of flags from the sanctuary, or the view of America as the new Israel.
My question, by the way, regarding the amounts of the Declaration of Independence read versus the Bible read was actually intended semi-seriously. I can't recall them ever reading anything more than a verse or so of scriptures at a shot (and even that much I'm not sure about). Hopefully it'll be easy to refute. Feel free to do so.
Second, I don't live in the USA (nor am I a US citizen), and I know that Boundless seems to get quite a few other international readers.
(I think that it's different for Boundless itself to celebrate American Independence than for the Boundless editors as individuals to do so).
6. Dave said the following at 4:50 PM on Jul 4:
DannieA: Boundless purports to have an international audience. I'm not from the USA.
The question was intended somewhat seriously. The outline mentions a dramatic reading of a chunk of the Declaration of Independence. I can't recall a show where they've listed a dramatic reading of a portion of scripture.
7. R said the following at 7:33 PM on Jul 4:
Praise God for David Wheaton the many good things he has been doing for the Kingdom!
dana111, if there are no godly compatible women to pursue, there is no pursuit.
8. Keppi Abby said the following at 8:05 PM on Jul 4:
I have been a podcast listener from day 1 – and I admit listening to David speak made me cringe – because I have grown to see the wisdom that comes from ‘not waiting for God to plop a mate into your lap’ --- but with that said, this is why I love the boundless show.
It allows both sides. Every week there are questions that challenge the Christian viewpoint of marriage, singleness and purity - and even when there is disagreement, boundless’ focus is turn our eyes back to a sound biblically practical view.
Hearing David speak reminded me of the viewpoint that I shared for most of my single life, and I’m still tempted to wander back into. After this week’s show – I am convicted that I need to pray that God will keep my mind on the truth that I have been able to gather from the weekly podcasts and Candice’s book (which I LOVE!!).
Thanks for the teachings.
~k
9. dana111 said the following at 9:05 PM on Jul 4:
Thanks, Phillip.
I was just wondering because I thought the panel was going easy on him because of his age or his "fame" or they just didn't want to question/offend him. I wonder what they would have said if a 23 year old man had said the same things as Mr. Wheaton. Would they have acted so cordially towards a younger man who used Paul's words in 1 Corinthians to justify his unwillingness to pursue marriage?
10. Rachael said the following at 9:09 AM on Jul 5:
I believe it is inappropriate for people to comment on a particular person's singleness in a negative judgemental way. If you (commenters) are considering doing that, please consider the effects and what hurt it may cause and refrain. How would you like to read a negative comment aimed at you when you've opened up your heart(and no I haven't listened to this podcast)? There are plenty of relationship articles on this blog, so chances to ask general questions and espouse views about relationships and singledom abound. Sure we can consider ideas in light of Scripture. But we must remember to extend grace and remember that there are black and white areas and that God works in different ways in different people. It's okay to be picky; there might be consequences involved, but a great treasure may be the reward. It's okay to not be picky as long as s/he is discerning. To each his own as long as Scripture rules. God's in ultimate control and can work in many ways.
11. Jeremy said the following at 1:34 PM on Jul 5:
I really appreciated something David said, especially since I imagine it would be easy from this site to get sort of over-obsessed with marriage:
"Christ, ultimately -- even when you are married -- Christ ultimately has to be the most important aspect of your life. Because really you are only married for a short time when you're on earth. ... You are not going to have your wife individually in heaven."
------------------------------------------------------------
"Obviously I disagree with the gift of celibacy view."
Could you clarify that a bit? You don't believe celibacy is a gift? You don't believe anyone should be celibate?
12. Dan *real name* said the following at 8:45 PM on Jul 5:
Instead of going the acrimonious route which it seems the responses to this post (and most other singleness/dating/marriage posts on Boundless) have already gone, I will give a testimony that I hope will encourage a few men and women.
Regarding the last statement to the posting - "get those happily married Christians to help you out!" - this is what I have done this year, and I have found a few trustworthy friends that were willing to help me meet some great Christian women. I have been on several dates this year, and ALL of the dates involved the help of a third party very early on. After their initial help, I did the asking out, I did the planning of the dates, and I paid for the activities (no, I am not a very assertive person, but this is just how it works. Guys, if you ask for a date, you do the paying!).
For those of us singles who are older, it is tough to meet eligible singles, especially since most churches focus their single ministries on those under 30 (that is not a criticism, but just how it is), or for those who are in situations (job related, family related, or where they live, etc) where it is VERY difficult to meet other singles. Enlisting the help of other Godly Christian friends and aquaintences may be very beneficial.
13. sumi r. said the following at 12:05 AM on Jul 6:
Whoa, whoa, what was up with David Wheaton? I agree with dana111 (comment 1) and Phillip (comment 4), this guy somehow missed the mark!
He wants to get married but he's "content" with being single? He's probably going to get married, but he has to see if it does or doesn't happen? (Uh, isn't that heresy!!??) And the whole, I have to be content in singleness because "...we don't get married in heaven anyway..." bit was a new excuse I've never even heard of!
I mean, is he actively working (since he is a man, after all) towards getting married or is he going to lead a life of celibacy? Getting a wife means pursuing her, not snatching one up as she happens to be passing by! Getting married happens on purpose! C'mon, dude!
It was painful listening to the panel cautiously ask him about his single life and listening to him fumble over his indecision. It soooo sounded like he's at the end of his rope in finding a wife so he's on this, "God will maybe bring bring her into my life when He's ready" kinda' thinking. I was yelling and shaking my computer speaker over here, trying to tell him, "Don't Give UP!"
Despite his accomplishments, David came across as an unnaturally-close-to-family-and-mom guy that's simply delaying marriage, if not by intention, then by action -or inaction in this case.
I'm convinced that you're either called to get married or called to a life of service and celibacy and it's your choice, nay responsibility, to answer you're call. The road of indecision gets you know where -plus, it a real turn off.
Still, good job panel! The show has made for GREAT discussion!
14. Dana said the following at 2:57 AM on Jul 6:
Hello, I would just like to say, as a single christian woman in my early thirties- I don't believe I am pressured by others to puruse marriage more than a non-christian woman of my age. I think I am pressured less- When I am told this is a gift from God, and if no one is asking it must be God's will.. well actually I seem to be the only person pressuring me. Why? because God has designed me for marriage, to desire a husband and family.. and whether or not others are pressuring me- I feel that pull within, to fulfill what God has put in me- My understanding of my own sinfulness and desire for godliness/ pursuit of holiness-causes me to put pressure on myself to marry.. not to earn my salvation, but to please my God who loves me..
People don't pressure one another these days about anything with any great force.. we are all so Nice, all mind our own business, or pretend things are fine and dandy, or we just make sure we don't know what is really going on in others lives- because all this singleness stuff is too hard, or too painful.. well that is my 2 cents worth..
Just throwing this out there: if women were not so socially available to men, and meeting men's needs in mixed bible study groups (for eg.).. being their 'friends'(but always secretly hoping for more..) maybe men would feel an internal presure.. Has boundless looked at what could be getting in the way of men's internal drive to marry (apart from the obvious and general 'sin' or he just doesn't have one??)
Ok, I will stop I could write on forever..
15. Boston Matt said the following at 12:52 PM on Jul 6:
First, David...really? You can't be serious so I'm not going to waste finger muscles typing up a response.
Second, I wish I had some good examples of pressure! From e-mails from my Nana toting the newest girl to grace their church, (1700 miles away) to friends telling me to go to a bike store because their was a cute girl there!There is a constant bombardment to find someone as if a full time job/full time seminary/part time internship were not hard enough to manage already!
I have found (and I'm only 24) that you are looked at is if:
(1) You are homosexual
(2) You are crazy
(3) You are defective (emotionally/physically)
It seems once you pass this litmus test then you are just looked at as lazy! I don't know why Christians do this more then others but I have to agree with the idea that we are pushed beyond what is healthy! At least I am anyways?
16. BDB said the following at 6:50 PM on Jul 6:
To an extent, I think that any extraordinary endeavor makes a "normal" marriage less likely, whether being a professional athlete or a Fortune 500 executive. Many top executives end up divorced because their work/travel schedules are so demanding that nothing is left over for investing in their family. The same thing can happen for someone who works full time while going to graduate school full time: if single, they may not have enough energy left over to pursue anything. I know several people who went back to graduate school and discovered that it was a terrible thing to do to their family. If someone graduates from college unattached, it seems "logical" to pursue the professional athletic career first; with a few exceptions it's impossible to be a successful professional athlete beyond about age 35.
I suppose you can see the same thing in missions-minded people. If they don't meet anyone with the same calling, should they stay home until they are married? Or should they head out while they are young and unattached?
17. Jarod said the following at 8:13 AM on Jul 7:
DannieA - who is to say Dave lives in America? Perhaps his family was uncerimoniously run out of the country after the war for being loyal to the king and fled to Canada? It has been known to happen.
18. Jeni said the following at 10:15 AM on Jul 7:
Great Podcast! I really like the Colorado Wranglers!
It sounds like David Wheaton may subscribe to the concept that God will deliver his wife via the UPS man.
Yet, while I was listening, I thought to myself that the UPS man might have delivered David to his wife in the broadcast studio! I mean, why not David and Lisa!?!? She's quite interesting, very funny and she might give him a chance. Seems like they've got similar interests. Anyway, I think it's worth a shot or at least a date! ;-)
19. Casey said the following at 10:19 AM on Jul 7:
I appreciated David's candor when asked some very personal questions about being single. His love for the Lord and desire to be in His will are evident and it’s apparent that the work he's doing in radio and with young people is vital as he encourages them to embrace a Biblical worldview. We need to affirm and support efforts like this. And I agree with Rachael’s post about not jumping so quickly to judge a person’s approach to finding a life mate based on a 20 minute segment. Give me a break. He's a brother in the Lord, folks. Side note: Did anyone else think David and Lisa might have some potential together?
20. Philip said the following at 11:34 AM on Jul 7:
Jeremy, the gift of celibacy view I disagree with is as I understand it that 1 Cor 7:7 refers to a spiritual gift given to a few to enable them to remain single (and celibate) for particular ministry and that those without it but able to pursue marriage ought to take reasonable steps to do so. So for example, if someone like David believes based on personal circumstances, internal pressure (and ideally the input of others) that they can better glorify God by remaining single (through undivided devotion) at least for now, then I am OK with that, while others might say their struggle with lust, openness to marriage some day etc. mean they don't have the gift and should pursue marriage urgently.
21. Keppi Abby said the following at 1:25 PM on Jul 7:
Jeni (comment 18)
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!
With all of it.
(i love this podcast - fun times)
22. Nicole (from Boston) said the following at 2:23 PM on Jul 7:
Such a good episode!! Although I must admit that when I heard David speak his thoughts on why he's still single, I tensed, waiting for the panel to graciously pounce. But (obviously) they didn't, which I found slightly interesting. Loved David's thoughts during the culture segment about the Gospel being both inclusionary and exclusionary. And the Declaration of Independence bit was fantastic!! (Was the music in the background the Colorado Wranglers??)
And Jeni (18) and Casey (19), I also had the same matchmaking thought about David and Lisa while listening. Hmmm... :)
23. BDB said the following at 2:38 PM on Jul 7:
Is there a way for Boundless to do an online poll to vote on whether David and Lisa should go to lunch?
24. dana111 said the following at 3:16 PM on Jul 7:
R said:
"dana111, if there are no godly compatible women to pursue, there is no pursuit."
That is true, but it seems to me that you are suggesting that in 39 years of life on this planet, this gentleman has not encountered ONE godly woman to pursue, with hopes of marrying? Really? Usually, women give the excuse that there are no godly men within their circles who are willing to pursue them. I find it laughable that a man as successful and as godly as Mr. Wheaton has a hard time attracting godly women. It stills seems to me that he is making excuses for his lack of initiative.
Of course, I don't know him personally, but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion about the statements he made.
25. Red said the following at 3:30 PM on Jul 7:
I think this is total divine intervention for Lisa and David. What a cute story to tell the grandkids :)
God is so good!
26. Mike said the following at 4:34 PM on Jul 7:
Dana (14) -
To answer your question about what might be interfering with men's internal drive to marry - may I suggest you check out the thread "Men Afraid of Bad Marriages"?
27. san soo said the following at 1:24 AM on Jul 8:
Joseph (OT) was in his thirties when he got married; Moses was in his forties. It happens. It sounds to me like Jacob was older when got married, as well (and he got two women out of the deal!). Why are people so critical? In a culture of homogeneity it is much easier to find a spouse. It is not so easy in a "melting pot" or "tossed salad". Middle Eastern culture often encourages people to wait until they are finished with college before they marry. Indian culture still encourages arranged marriages. Considering how many broken homes and messed up lives abound today, I do not believe it is wise to tell people to get married young, at least in a carte blanche fashion. Some people, like me, need more time than others to grow up, mature, face our issues. Marriage is fragile enough, don't push people into something they are not ready for.
28. Miss S said the following at 12:59 PM on Jul 8:
It seems that David Wheaton has a very low..."marriage" drive. I'm guessing he has been the given the gift of singleness, otherwise, he wouldn't be so content and passive. "He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD." Proverbs 18:22
29. R said the following at 5:45 AM on Jul 10:
Dana111 (24) says:
That is true, but it seems to me that you are suggesting that in 39 years of life on this planet, this gentleman has not encountered ONE godly woman to pursue, with hopes of marrying? Really?
Sure, why is so hard to believe? Myself being around Mssr. Wheaton's age has had the same problem, and I know many other brothers that feel the same. In this day and age, it is becoming harder to find godly women who would model the Proverbs 31 women. Read some of the previous Boundless threads to see why.
Besides, remember in the classic biblical story of Ruth, we don't see Boaz pursuing Ruth or anyone for that matter. God provided for him in His sovereignty. And the NT equals that sentiment. God provides. This isn't to say a man can't pursue should he meet a godly woman that interests him. Yet again, if there is no one to pursue, there is no pursuit.
30. Jo said the following at 11:22 AM on Jul 10:
R.:
Seriously? You've never found even ONE Godly woman? Seriously? I don't mean a woman who has it all together and is in fact perfect (such a woman would probably not have you anyway, since I assume you are sinner like the rest of us), but one who is on the right path at a similar level of maturity to yourself? You've never met one single woman who fulfills this description?
To be clear, I'm not attacking the fact you haven't married... I know several Godly men, but that isn't my *only* criteria for a husband. But your assertion that you've never met a Godly woman... that I find hard to believe.
31. Dan *real name* said the following at 4:52 PM on Jul 10:
Jo (#30); please read my post (#12), especially paragraph 3. Also, I have met some Godly women my age, and have refused to pursue them, and there are some good reasons for this. In addition, as you may read in my post (#12) paragraph 2, I have pursued two Godly women this year, and there are good reasons why I pursued them vs. the other Godly women I have chosen not to pursue.
R (post #29): I may be treading on very thin ice here, and someone I hope will correct me if I am wrong (I seriously mean that), but let's try not to use God's sovereignty as a tool to enforce non-action - I know that you are not trying to do that, but I myself was hurt by someone who used "sovereignty" to dismiss my struggle with singleness and wanting a wife. Not too long ago I was speaking with a Godly woman (married with six children and many grandchildren), and she was asking me about what to do with making their basement more safe if there was a tornado to occur (we live in Minnesota, and the deadly Hugo tornado got her thinking). I described what she and her husband could do to make the basement more safe. Afterwards she said that she knows that God is ultimately in control, but that doesn't mean that she cannot take some action to protect their home. My OPINION is that God may lead some people to just sit back and relax and watch him bring a spouse to them (we all know MANY people who found their spouses just in everyday life, like going to youth group, at jobs, etc). It is also my OPINION that God may lead some people to take a step (physical step), and take some action to pursue a spouse (I know several people who have met their spouses through eharmony and BigChurch.com). I have had some dates this year, and NONE of them would have happened if I didn't reach out to someone to help me contact the women (note that I didn't say that they didn't ask the women out for me, but I just needed their assistance in finding these women).
Finally, regarding David Wheaton, it is kind of sad how many people here feel that they can stand in judgement against him when they know nothing about how God is leading him or what is going on in his heart.
32. Rachael said the following at 9:52 PM on Jul 10:
R -- perhaps you've tried, but, perhaps if you look in Christian communities (churches or other; you might find more singles in the city?) where there is sound theology, good community, depth, serving together, and humility, you might find some good girls.
I suppose you've already considered your sources :)
Just know there really are good (though sinful) girls out there. Involvement in a church community and ministries might help with discovering one or two gems in a hidden nook or cranny...
Good, deep friends are not everyday discoveries; yes. Doors do open when there's a change in the social scenery, though.
33. BLH ;) said the following at 12:42 AM on Jul 11:
If David doesn't think that God has dropped Lisa into his lap, then I don't know what it will take for him to get married!
34. dan !real name! said the following at 1:06 AM on Jul 11:
Oooops, in my post #31, third paragraph, last sentence, I meant to say "note that I did not say that they asked the women out for me"
i.e., I asked them out myself
35. Jo said the following at 6:41 AM on Jul 11:
Dan (#31):
I'm not sure what part of my comment you're disagreeing with? I wasn't making any judgment on R. for his decision not to pursue the women he knows. As I said, there are many Godly men in my life that I have either turned down or would turn down. I don't suggest at all that someone should marry the first Godly person s/he meets.
What I take issue with is the idea (expressed or certainly implied in R.'s comment) that Godly women are so rare that a man might never even meet one in the first place! To me that's rather an insult towards Christian women and something I wanted to refute. Godly *people* are a minority in our culture, it is true - but a) that's certainly not exclusive to women and b) let's not act like we're an endangered species just yet!
36. Lisa A said the following at 10:02 AM on Jul 11:
Awww, thanks to ALL of you for the kind comments. You're the best!
37. Bekah said the following at 12:04 AM on Jul 12:
I had never listened to Boundless before, but I have to say I really liked this show with David Wheaton. Also, after reading some of the above postings, I would just like to say that this whole "finding" a mate thing is like many other aspects of our walk in this life: God expects us to do our part, but then we must trust Him to take care of the rest. So, as we follow Jesus, we may need to be careful to take advantage of relationship opportunities, and when we've done that, we CAN be very at peace with and enjoy life whatever our relationship status is. (I know --I'm 28 and single) BTW: Singleness is not some sort of disease. God really is able to plop someone "UPS-style" in my life, but if He doesn't, I'm sure He'll have some other really good plan for me/us. Proverbs 3:5-6
38. Dan /real name/ said the following at 12:40 AM on Jul 12:
Jo (#35):
I do apologize for misunderstanding and misrepresenting your post. I do agree with you about your being "selective" in choosing a Godly person. I also do agree with you and understand you that it is insulting when you hear men complain how there are "no Godly women around." How can I understand? Well, I cannot direct you to the specific post and responses on this blog, but I do recall sometime in the last year or so some women writing something to the effect of "where are all the Godly men?" here on Boundlessline. I was kind of teed off to read those comments, cause I was thinking "Hey, I am in no ways Mr. Born-With-A-Spiritual-Spoon-In-My-Mouth, but hey, I'M RIGHT HERE!!!!!!"
R (if you are reading this), could you maybe elaborate maybe as to why there is a lack of available women you would consider? Low population where you live, for example?
39. Cassandra said the following at 10:40 PM on Jul 14:
R #29 "Besides, remember in the classic biblical story of Ruth, we don't see Boaz pursuing Ruth or anyone for that matter. God provided for him in His sovereignty."
Don't mean to be snarky here but here goes:
"Then Boaz asked his foreman, 'Who is that girl over there?' and the foreman replied, "She is the young woman from Moab who came back with Naomi"....Boaz went over and said to Ruth, "Listen, my daughter. Stay right here with us when you gather grain, don't go to any other fields. Stay right behind the women working in my field...." And it goes on like that. Ruth 2:5-9 NLT
Just sayin.