Getting Old, Alone
by Candice Watters on 07/31/2008 at 11:56 AM
The New York Times' blog post "Single, Childless and 'Downright Terrified'" has the forums humming. Lots of folks are debating the notion that getting old without offspring is a frightening proposition. Jane Gross writes,
... having witnessed the "new old age" from a front-row seat, I'm haunted by the knowledge that there is no one who will care about me in the deepest and most loving sense of the word at the end of my life. No one who will advocate for me, not simply for adequate care but for the small and arguably inessential things that can make life worth living even in compromised health.
Those who are intentionally childless insist they have plenty of insurance and other safeguards in place to make sure someone's there to feed them creamed spinach. Others, who still wish their lives had worked out differently in the realm of family, hope they will. But for all the back and forth about getting old alone, there was an omission I found striking. Nowhere in Gross' original post was there any mention of community, religious or otherwise. Most tragically, no mention of a church -- her church, the church, any church.
Instead, she looked to the prospect of an expanded role for friends. "Friends helping friends through illness or old age" is a possible solution, she says, but unfortunately, such "is a luxury of those who can afford to do it with no help from the government or their employers." Why is that? "The handful of benefits available to family caregivers are not available to friends who have taken on the identical role."
Her recommendation: have a "conversation" about "the 'second class' status of friendship in 'the American hierarchy of relationships' and 'grant it legal status.'" Maybe the answer lies in granting friendships the same or similar rights as biological relatives.
I think Gross has stumbled onto one of the reasons God made families, and by default, one of the unintended consequences of our cultural assault on marriage and children. Unfortunately, her proposed solution -- marriage-like legal rights for friendships -- if embraced, would undoubtedly produce more such unintended consequences.
The reality of an aging, childless population is undeniable. How we care for them, however, is yet to be decided. Where some see tragedy, I see opportunity. The church is uniquely gifted to step in with compassionate care not only for the body in this life, but also for the spirit with a view toward the next.
1. renee68 said the following at 12:30 PM on Jul 31:
Candice,
I think you bring up some very legitimate concerns and issues. You state: "The church is uniquely gifted to step in with compassionate care not only for the body in this life, but also for the spirit with a view toward the next."
I would agree with that point regarding just about every sector of the population except the single population. I don't think that the modern church is equipped to care for singles. If anything, I find the modern church treats singles as outcasts - especially never married singles. Certainly, the church can change the way they deal with and care for singles, but unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. Sad to say, but true.
2. Louise, 42 said the following at 12:49 PM on Jul 31:
My father died at age fifty-eight, so maybe I will share his fate.
3. Candice Watters said the following at 12:52 PM on Jul 31:
renee68, I'm curious what examples you would give as evidence that the church treats singles as outcasts. Certainly if that's true, it's a grave concern. Care to share?
4. Adam said the following at 12:56 PM on Jul 31:
I am a huge advocate for making for a way to connect people as "family" legally even when they are not connected biologically.
The church is made up of people. I suppose I don't see how this group of people would be better able to care for the physical needs of someone better than friends. The money is the same. Time is the same. Legal status is pretty much the same.
We can blame cultural attacks on marriage and/or children. I think that is a red herring though - it may increase the frequency, but it does not create the problem. And bemoaning it does not create the solution.
Not everyone is able to find a spouse - even within the church. The Bible makes no promises to provide a spouse. And I, for one, believe that engaging in sex and having children before marriage is a sin.
But hey, pretty much everybody can find somebody to marry given enough time and effort. The same cannot be said for children. There are many couples who are biologically - for whatever reason - unable to have children.
What about adoption? Wait a second... adoption. Isn't that taking someone in who is not biologically a part of your family and giving the relationship legal status? Isn't this exactly what Jane Gross is advocating for - without being limited by age? Isn't this a human example of the type of relationship we are invited to be a part of with God (John 1:12-13)?
5. Lynne said the following at 1:52 PM on Jul 31:
In terms of giving friendships legal status, the law already allows a person to name anyone as their Health Care Power of Attorney. This document allows you to have someone who can make decisions about health and treatment when you are unable, preferably with your wishes documented alongside. While this doesn't ensure the "niceties," it does provide a legal means for your care to be managed.
I work in healthcare, so I see this frequently. Nieces/nephews, occasionally neighbors, friends, very extended family have served as healthcare poa.
Certain rights and rules may vary by state.
6. J. said the following at 2:43 PM on Jul 31:
Adam (#4) wrote:
"What about adoption? Wait a second... adoption. Isn't that taking someone in who is not biologically a part of your family and giving the relationship legal status? Isn't this exactly what Jane Gross is advocating for - without being limited by age? Isn't this a human example of the type of relationship we are invited to be a part of with God (John 1:12-13)?"
I agree with you, Adam. Also, I don't think there is a scriptural basis for saying that friendships should not be given legal status.
I, too, think it would be wonderful if there were an extensive ministry focused on providing TLC for those who are very ill and/or dying and are single and childless with little to no family around them. Sadly, as time goes on, there will be a much greater need for this kind of ministry. But this would still leave such people without the option to give trusted friends legal status and the ability to advocate on their behalf.
7. Holly (single, non-parent one) said the following at 3:55 PM on Jul 31:
I am amused by the assumption that children take care of you when you're old. An old friend of mine was just placed into a nursing home at age 61. She has severe physical problems, but not the kind that kill you. She will live a long time. She has five children. Among the five other ladies in her wing, they have 21 children. The truthful answer to "Who will take care of the childless when they are old?" is, in the vast majority of cases, "The same minimum-wage nursing home worker who will take care the parents."
On legal status, I hold power of attorney/healthcare proxy for, as of this week, four friends, and two have such a document on me (primary and backup). It's needlessly complicated and benefits only attorneys' pockets.
As to the church stepping in...you're kidding, right? Here is what the local churches do for the ladies who are in the nursing home where my friend is: they bring in the cute kids twice a year to sing. Period.
8. renee68 said the following at 4:21 PM on Jul 31:
Candice:
Here are a few examples of the modern church treating singles as outcasts.
I attend a church where they held a Valentine's Dinner one year. They promoted it as being romantic and for couples. (Hey, what about us single folks? Aren't we welcome?)
My church has ministries for children, youth, married and the elderly but not for singles.
My church has Bible studies geared for parents and for couples, but not for singles.
As a single, I have never been invited by couples in the church to do things, such as go out to dinner, join them for Sunday dinner, etc.
I have practically begged my church to have a singles ministry, but to no avail.
Singles are one of the largest growing sectors of the population. Ignoring us won't make us go away. Or wait.....maybe it will. Maybe singles will just stop going to church because the church ignores them.
I hate to sound like an alarmist, but I see fewer and fewer singles in church. It isn't because they don't exist. It's because they aren't welcome.
9. Elizabeth said the following at 6:05 PM on Jul 31:
I think people should be able to adopt seniors. They should call it adoption, though, and not friendship. I had an "adopted" grandma (she married my grandpa when I was a child, some time after my first grandma died. She had been married and widowed, but she never had any children of her own), and we loved her just as much as a biological grandparent. Maybe a legal version of an Adopt-A-Grandparent program?
It wouldn't help much to link people legally with friends of their own generation, because they would be getting old at the same time. But if younger people could adopt them, then they would have children after all.
10. Sylvia said the following at 6:28 PM on Jul 31:
Renee68's Comment took my twisted mind to another place. She mentions begging the church to have a singles ministry.
The next thing I think of is the fact that when someone mentions singles ministries, people picture Bible studies that are basically "singles nights" where people are looking to pair up. This bothers folks---too worldly!. Then people (especially the singles) think about the alternative, which is a really lame meeting filled with all the stuff they hear all the time about maximizing their singleness, and all of the time and money they have free to serve the Lord.(ugh!) So then, there is the Bible study nobody approves of, verses the one that nobody goes to.
When you're a single woman if seems like everyone is looking at you wondering what you're after. I can get absolutely terrified of people at church suspecting that I "like" someone out of season. I makes me impossibly shy. I don't want to get taken aside and spoken to. I don't want to make another person nervous around me.
I guess what I'm saying is that its hard for people not to see single people in a sexualized way, and they don't know how to deal with that. It is so much easier to talk to someone's husband or wife, knowing exactly who that is in relation to everyone else. Even though in reality, married people and teenagers and children have troubles of their own, singles come to sort of symbolize the possibility of drama and change and discontentment.
I must admit to finding it most fatiguing watching my friends hook up with people I know aren't right, and then dragging it out, and then breaking up. I'm just like: "Lord, Please bring the right one for her so this silliness can end!"
While I wish other people appreciated singles more, I really really wish I did. As it is, I have a sort of grudging suspicious appreciation for smart God-fearing single men with quirky good looks, but otherwise, I just really wish everyone, me included, could just settle down already.
I definitely think churches should keep prayerfully trying to reach out to singles, I was just kinda going over some of the challenges.
I know that's a bit of a brain dump, and I'm sorry, but I'm interested to see if those observations provoke anyone to more intelligent thoughts that my own (hehe, not hard!) Thanks.
11. Christina (in green) said the following at 6:40 PM on Jul 31:
I really have to say that the church has dropped the ball in many places...
But i think its in failing to connect the people that need to be connected... older women with the younger women, singles with married folks, older men with younger men, old with young, young with old.
But tell me Renee, you speak of how the church has shunned you as a single...
This article is about old people who will die alone being alone...and people are saying how the church neglects them, too.
So, are you a part of the church? Or are you just someone who is supposed to be serviced by a bunch of people who do this professionally?
Sounds like you have a need to be included by other members of the church and there are members of the christian community ending up in nursing homes with no one to care for them...
Sounds like a good place to start, right?
12. KJ said the following at 6:48 PM on Jul 31:
renee68 -
Sadly, I can concur with you on nearly every point you brought up. I attend the church where I grew up and though I'm nearly 30, it wasn't until I started seriously dating someone (and he had changed churches to attend with me) that I was welcomed into the "grownup" activities of the church. Quite suddenly, a whole new world of opportunities opened up - I was asked to help with the Valentine banquet (as opposed to being asked to BABYSIT a couple of years earlier), was invited to people's homes for dinner, and was basically treated more like an adult than ever before. (Incidentally, my church does have a "college & career" group - this is the catch-all for singles of any age - and it was entirely peopled with my much younger siblings and their even younger friends. Apparently their generation didn't get scared away the way mine did.) It's like people are afraid of singles...afraid of the uncomfortable "third wheel" dynamic that is almost inevitable when a single joins a group of couples, afraid of investing in their lives only to have them just get married and move away or something.
A book I would definitely recommend is "A Match Made In Heaven" by Wendy Widder. It speaks to the ways that singles and marrieds can serve and bless one another and learn from one another, without ignoring one segment of the population or compartmentalizing everyone to death. It was a big help to me.
13. AMJ said the following at 7:16 PM on Jul 31:
I wouldn't say that singles are outcasts but I would say they are invisible. I'm single and an older single at that (I'm in my early 40s). I believe my church loves singles and values what we bring to the fellowship. But I don't think they see us or make an effort to minister to this season of life. I think some of it has to do with life experience. None of the pastors at my church had a long period of singleness in their lives. A few them got saved one week and met their future spouses the next! I think that makes it difficult for them to consider singles and their needs. Ministry to families, to couples and to men and women generally is abundant but I think that's because the pastors and their wives can relate and remember those seasons of their lives and the needs that came along with being there. For all the reasons that get talked about on this forum, singles are single for longer periods of time than ever before. I think generationally, it's hard for church leadership to see us as a group and if they do see us, to know how to ministry, encourage and support us
14. BDB said the following at 7:38 PM on Jul 31:
Huh. I just saw a TV ad for ADT Companion service. Targeted at old folks living alone, who fall...
15. Don said the following at 8:15 PM on Jul 31:
Renee68, this may seem a bit simplistic, but if no one else in your church seems to be interested in developing a singles ministry, then maybe you could step up and get the ball rolling. I think that actually taking action may provide more results than just begging for someone else to start things. Show that there is an interest and a legitimate need and things may change.
16. exchurchmouse said the following at 8:35 PM on Jul 31:
Isn't it pretty clear that the single Christian population Boundless is reaching out to don't have children because *unfortunately*(tongue in cheek) they were not chosen to join someone at the altar? For this site, I don't think that we have to be too concerned about this general demographic *choosing* not to have kids.
Plus - children may not survive their parents. Last year, I lost a friend to a cancer. Her sister had passed on a couple of years before. It was pretty painful to see her parents. My aunt passed away a few years ago and was survived by my grandpa!
Nevertheless, regardless of your marital status, community is very important. Nurturing healthy relationships and keeping regular contact will help forge bonds between peers who can help each other out in the twilight of their years.
Based on the content I read in renee68's post, I think that it is time to change the focus from being single and childless as a choice and providing practical resources to advocate for people who haven't chosen this life for themselves and are struggling with psychological and logistical (including care issues). I know that Focus on the Family must have a lot of resources or connections to resources in the community.
17. exchurchmouse said the following at 8:37 PM on Jul 31:
renee68,
Looks like you need to find a new church community that will welcome and appreciate you.
18. IMO said the following at 9:09 PM on Jul 31:
Hi renee68,
I'm sorry that your church is not more dynamic and open to singles. But please don't lump your personal experience with your church with all other churches.
How big is your church? Are there areas that you can serve in?
At my church, there are many ministries that anybody can serve in--married and single. I know, I served in several ministries as a single person. And I never felt like "the single girl" or anything like that.
And our church does minister to Singles with several Singles Ministry--varying by age group.
So not every church is like your church. Maybe you can join a Singles Ministry at another church. I know some people who did that...they had their own church but went to mine during the week....
Just trying to be helpful..
19. Texas Craig said the following at 9:47 PM on Jul 31:
This concern highlights something that I have thought about for a while. To be honest, I have no conerns about being lonely when I get old, regardless of whether my wife and children are around me. Why is that? Because I intentionally invest my life into others. In so doing, I am quite confident that, if the time comes and I need help and assistance in my old age, many of those same people will invest back into me.
The fact of the matter is that these concerns only arise if people live generally selfish or isolated lives. In constrast, much like the movie "It's a Wonderful Life," if you choose to live your life in such a way as to constantly be investing in others, then others will come to your aid when needed.
But, sadly, our culture is so ego-centric that we rarely think of others above ourselves. Moreover, even our churches have fostered attitudes of self-centered Christianity. Namely, we hear messages like "love God because your life will be better" or "God will provide for all your needs." These sound nice and biblical, but they are still reflective of a self-centered life. Instead, like Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego, we need to be willing to acknowledge that God "is able" to take care of us, but that is not the reasons we honor Him. Rather, we intend to serve Him regardless of whether He will rescue us from our trials. That is selfless faith, and that is what we are to have.
As for all of us who are believers, we are no longer our own, but are bought with a price. We have died, and our lives are now hidden in Christ with God. We are to serve one another in love. As we do that, we do not have to fear aging or being alone in our old age.
This certainly is something for churches to consider as a ministry, though; namely, reaching out to those in need. It is sad that it is needed, but that is true of most unfortunate situations (orphans, AIDS victims, etc.). We live in a fallen world, and our job is to be the body of Christ to a dark and needy world.
Peace and Grace!
20. a sassy sister said the following at 10:01 PM on Jul 31:
sylvia:
as a single woman, I have experienced the type of categorization that the church has done towards singles. The problem is that too many times, the church tries to make singles "conform" to the structure of the body(which is family focused) instead of walking in agape love with them and not treating them like something to be fixed.
I have been blessed to be exposed to activities and events with other singles who are fellowshipping with each other and getting into God's Word not to "hook up" or find a date, but to grow in God together. Not everyone goes to Bible study for that purpose. I also must add that people will try to pair themselves off, regardless of the event if that's their agenda.
I unfortunately have also experienced church members who somehow think that their generation's timeline for marriage and family is Biblically mandated for all Christian singles, and that somehow what God has instructed for them regarding marriage and family should be the norm for everyone else. It is very trying to be nice to older church folk who seem to believe it is totally appropriate to ask you your marital status upon first meeting and then ask questions about why you're not married yet.
And in my honest opinion, what I see in churches is a social hierarchy and segregation of age groups. I have noticed that there is disparate treatment between singles in ministry and marrieds in ministry. Singles are taken less seriously and are seen as lacking in regards to readiness for ministry simply because they're not married. How? In my experiences observing church leadership's interaction with singles and marrieds church leaders approach married couples for ministry opportunities to lead and serve than singles.
21. Beatrice81 said the following at 10:08 PM on Jul 31:
Holly is right. I'm also struck by the naive notion that eldercare will be provided by the children. Ever worked in a retirement home? I did for one summer and I could count on one hand the number of visits by children or grandchildren to the 200 residents.
It can get more amusing even. I've noticed that the people who accuse the childless of being "selfish" and those who believe that getting taken care of when they're old is a good reason for having children -- they're often the same people. I can't think of anything much more selfish than bringing a life into the world in order to have your old-age medical needs attended to.
The fact is, the vast majority of us -- whether we have 1 child or 10 or none -- will be cared for in old age by the same people: paid professionals, not untrained relatives.
22. Stephen said the following at 2:22 AM on Aug 1:
Even with a family, something unfortunate could happen and result in growing old alone, because we live in a fallen world.
However, as a single 33 yo Christian guy, I find the possibility of never having the joy of sharing my life and love with a wife and children in a Biblical way hurts a lot more.
It is easy to feel like an outcast in a congregation full of married and attached people. However, I think that it is important to seek first God's Kingdom and am trying to be part of the solution. Although Bible studies specifically for singles might not work (Sylvia), perhaps other social activities might be helpful for singles to get to know other singles and form deeper friendships with others at Church, eg: low-cost performances, organised dinners, walks, picnics, games nights, dancing.
Hope that this is helpful,
Stephen
23. Jen said the following at 2:30 AM on Aug 1:
I laughed while reading this string of comments... so true. And personally, I like the idea of legal rights for single, close friends who want to grow old with you. Particularly if there are financial benefits associated with the legal status.
Was just cleaning my room when I ran across an old book I picked up at a SmartMarriages conference in 2005: "Why There Are No Good Men Left" by Barbara Dafoe Whitehead. I haven't read this book, but the back cover made it sound fairly promising, "fascinating and reassuring, her portrayal of the single woman's plight leaves young women with more hope - and more strength - than they had before."
My current older self harummphed in disbelief for about 30 seconds, right before my younger, more idealistic self took over and decided that I must read this book. (I may be chronologically 35, but in this particular game, I'm definitely more in the 25 zone)
So I pray that it does offer some encouragement.
If nothing else, I got a real good laugh on the first page where the author quotes Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice:
"... I am sick of them all. Thank heaven! I am going tomorrow where I shall find a man who has not one agreeable quality, who has neither manner nor sense to recommend him. stupid men are the only ones worth knowing, after all."
"Take care, Lizzy; that speech savours strongly of disappointment."
Any woman who is single and unmarried at 35 understands Ms. Elizabeth Bennett's disillusioned comment all too well. The cream of the crop has been picked over, unless you go looking on the other side of the fence in the secular world. Or unless you are really and truly okay with the whole blended family concept, and someone who has been divorced or widowed. Yep, we 30-somethings have such great options.
And the church... oh c'mon! Who are you kidding? The church is extraordinarily ineffective in helping singles get married. If you're a woman who follows the scripts in a typical conservative, evangelical church, you're even more out of luck. Waiting for shy dudes to initiate tests my patience, makes me irritated, quite frankly. I'm like "Be a man, please, take the lead!" Am sure my attitude that doesn't help the equation any... but seriously, we're not exactly wilting violets it the workplace, why would be in our personal lives? The Christian woman's relationship script (meek, submissive, led the guy take the lead) and the work persona script (take charge, be assertive, don't be a girl) are completely out of sync.
The church does not help us single, career-oriented women get married.
Okay, am going to sign off before I write another 20 pages on this irritating subject.
My younger self still votes that I read Mrs. Whitehead's book though, so I must have a glimmer of romantic hope left...
Am remembering those days spent lying in the tall grass under the warm sun, breeze gently blowing, completely engrossed in L.M. Montgomery's Anne of Green Gables. That time and space long ago when I still believed in something wonderful... when I still believed that I would one day meet my Gilbert, my Mr. Darcy.
Am not etirely sure what happened - but I know that the fresh water met the salt water at the mouth of the bay somewhere around the time I turned 30... and yep, sure enough, this brackish water isn't anywhere near as fun to swim in.
So why not have a practical back-up plan? Why not platonic friends with legal standing? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me...
Better than the back-up spouse that was joked about on t.v.'s "Friends" many years ago. I mean, who wants a marriage of convenience? Yuck.
24. Michelle F. said the following at 6:26 AM on Aug 1:
As a single woman in the church, I'd love to be included in cross-generational activities. We do have supper groups that young adults and couples participate in together, but I've always gotten the feeling that my church doesn't know what to do with singles. I usually feel like the odd one out even if couples and families invite me to spend time with them. I don't know if they realize how much we singles want to be a part of their lives, and not just an add-on, but an integral part of their lives in the same way families with children share their lives with other families with children.
25. Kelly said the following at 6:50 AM on Aug 1:
Slyvia said: "I don't want to get taken aside and spoken to."
Okay - WHAT IS WITH THIS? I've seen it happen to a few friends of mine, perfectly innocent male/female friendships and yet church elders feel they need to 'step in' and tell them off for cultivating an inappropriate friendship.
Now, I agree stepping in is good if one party is in love with the other, but the specific examples I know of were absolutely nothing like that. My friends were in their mid-twenties, and the three of us often spent time together. The two of them got in trouble for going to the movies together.
I just don't get it.
26. bballfan6 said the following at 10:25 AM on Aug 1:
I just have to jump in here on the 'being taken aside by the elders' thing. Remember that you are an adult (even if you don't feel like it) and should be treated like one. Insist on that.
Also look at how you carry yourself. If you act like a 15 year old expect to be treated that way. I know it's not easy to start acting your age sometimes(I've certainly had issues with this), but it's something we need to do. Paul mentioned this somewhere in one of the Corinthians letters: when I became a man I put childish things behind me. I believe that includes how we act as well.
If an elder or "an adult" takes you aside and has an issue with you talking to the opposite gender ask him/her why they have a problem with two independent adults having a conversation. Mention that your collegues or subordinates (if you have a management role) wouldn't dare question your intentions if you have a conversation with the opposite gender. If you have an advanced degree politely tell the person that they are not on a first name basis with you and that they need to address you as Dr. XXXXX.
Please don't use the occasion to tell off the elder or whoever is questioning you. An elder has a great responsibility to help look after the flock, but you, as an adult deserve to be treated as one.
27. Janelle said the following at 10:52 AM on Aug 1:
Texas Craig (19), thanks for your thoughtful comment! I find it so easy to forget that my role in the church is one of being a servant, and not being served. That is what Jesus modeled, but somehow it seems so much easier when Jesus did it than when that's my job.
Many people have said that having children is no guarantee that you won't be stuck in a nursing home somewhere. That is sadly true, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Modeling for our own children the way elders should be treated carries a lot of weight.
When I was a little girl, I watched as my great-grandparents, and then my grandparents were cared for by their children. They lived with their children for as long as possible, in most cases dying at home with family. So that's what I want to provide for my parents as they become elderly, and what I want to teach my children to do for me. There's no guarantee, but hopefully my kindness toward my parents will be rewarded by my children's care of me, and their children's care of them, ad infinitum.
Rather than worry about our futures, we should worry about the present for the old people we know now.
28. Nancy said the following at 11:26 AM on Aug 1:
I married a little bit later in life, so I have been a "single" and a "married." My church did not have a singles ministry. We do have one now, but I didn't miss it at the time, because I got plugged into areas I'm passionate about. If you're passionate about serving the elderly, jump in and start a ministry. If your church needs a singles ministry, giddyup.
I think it's easy to get into the midset that "the church" is a separate entity designed to serve us. Sheesh! WE are the church; the people are the church. We are to serve each other and a lost, hurting, unsaved world. A bit off-topic, but I'm just sayin'.
29. renee68 said the following at 11:47 AM on Aug 1:
To answer the questions addressed to me:
Question from Christina: "So, are you a part of the church? Or are you just someone who is supposed to be serviced by a bunch of people who do this professionally?"
Answer: Of course, I am part of the church. I attend church and Sunday School virtually every week. I go out on visitation a couple of times a month with my church. I have also assisted with other programs in the church. I also teach a monthly women's Bible study (outside of my church) to a group of about twenty elderly women (the oldest of whom is 100 yrs old!) I don't just sit around and complain. I try to make a difference.
Don: Renee68, this may seem a bit simplistic, but if no one else in your church seems to be interested in developing a singles ministry, then maybe you could step up and get the ball rolling. I think that actually taking action may provide more results than just begging for someone else to start things. Show that there is an interest and a legitimate need and things may change.
Answer: I have not only volunteered to help head up a singles ministry at my church, but I have also offered to personally pay for the costs of getting one started so that it won't be a burden on my church. Unfortunately, when there is no support from the ministers, there isn't much you can do.
IMO: "Hi renee68,I'm sorry that your church is not more dynamic and open to singles. But please don't lump your personal experience with your church with all other churches."
Answer: I am not dumping my personal experiences with my church on all other churches. I have visited and been a member of several churches. I was once part of a church that had a wonderful singles ministry. Unfortunately, the pastor left and the church split. Having been a member of several churches and having spoken to other singles, I know that my experience is not limited to just me. I know that other singles are experiencing this as well.
I don't sit around and think, "poor me, I am going to grow old alone." Rather, I reach out to people, even if they don't reach out to me. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to work too well with singles in the church. Maybe married folks just don't know how to relate to singles. I don't know. I suppose I just have a heart for singles - knowing that there are so many out there who do not know Christ, who aren't attending church, who don't have family or a support system.
30. Sylvia said the following at 11:52 AM on Aug 1:
Kelly,#25
The hard thing is, I do get it. As much as it makes me nervous in some situations, I am very glad that I go to a church that looks out for the safety and purity of its women so well. (The elders of my church don't do anything that could be characterized as "telling off", thankf ully)
I have seen time after time problems arise from people going through the motions of dating, and as "just friends". It causes confusion both for the parties involved, and for the younger people in the church who may be watching.
There have been times in which one party has no qualms about certain situations, while the second party just doesn't want to be rude to her friend. In these cases, a girl can be quite grateful that someone from the church steps in and says "I'm worried about you two talking alone in your car" or whatever to the party of the first part.
I have to admit, I would want someone to say something about a man and a woman going to a movie together alone. In a large number of those cases, one of the two wants more than a friendship. If it is he, he should step up and stop playing around. If it is she, she should stop accepting cheap relationships and being treated as cheap company. If this pair is actually the exception, they should consider that their actions not only take on the appearance of dating, but will be taken as an example by other young people who will use this as permission to go on non-date dates.
Its hard, because I have seen the confusion so many times. I wouldn't want my church to be any other way in terms of watching the flock. Although I bristle under it as a single girl, I can't think of any other way I want to have it.
31. IMO said the following at 12:54 PM on Aug 1:
renee68,
Thanks for replying back...
I was referring to the following comment you made: "Here are a few examples of the modern church treating singles as outcasts."
I get what you're saying now but that's a pretty blanket statement to make...
Wow that's cool that you get to lead such a bible study! I would love to soak up the godly wisdom of these women...
32. Larry Geiger said the following at 1:52 PM on Aug 1:
Every time I hear someone (who's not a small child) say "my church does not minister to ..." I sort of flinch. If your church does not minister to ... then you are not ministering to ... The church is us. If your church is not doing, then that means that you aren't doing it. There is your ministry opportunity. Get to work.
33. connie said the following at 2:06 PM on Aug 1:
Okay, I am almost fifty, so excuse my cluelessness-but what is wrong with two friends going to the movies, even if they are of the opposite sex? They are in public, right?
I want my adult daughter knowing how to treat her male friends as brothers-not having an expectation that a guy should only talk to her if he is actively looking for a wife, and she will do. I see the direction this is going in the church at large, and it bothers me. If we don't learn to treat each other as brothers and as sisters, period, at any age, we will have succeeded in sexualizing any social contact with the opposite sex, period. And I think that is NOT a good idea.
34. Jo said the following at 3:49 PM on Aug 1:
Re: elderly parents being cared for by family:
Realistically, that just isn't always possible. My Grandma developed alzheimers in her late 50s and was cared for patiently and lovingly by my Grandpa throughout his retirement, even though by that stage she had deteriorated to the point where she was constantly aggressive and accusing towards him. When he died, she needed 24-hour care and out of her three daughters, one lives in Australia, one has two young children and the other (my Mum) also had a house full as well as a job. Instead, we moved her to a lovely home in our town, close enough that we could visit her regularly. I doubt our situation is unusual - when someone literally needs 24-hour care, how many families are really able to provide that?
Re: males and females going to the cinema etc together as friends:
Wow, if I took all the advice on commenters here I'd seriously be radically changing several of my friendships for no good reason. These things are individual, people. Yes, it can sometimes be a problem. But just because it is a problem in some situations doesn't mean it's a problem for everyone in all situations. I've had lunch/dinner alone with guy friends, been to concerts/cinemas/theatres alone with guy friends, even been for a walk after dark by a lake alone with a guy friend!
Not one of these things has ever made me the slightest bit uncomfortable, nothing inappropriate has ever happened and no one has ever got the wrong idea. With some guys, I am more careful. It all depends who they are and what our relationship is like. In fact, the after-dark walk was with a guy I actually 'liked' - but I knew he just saw me as a friend and I was fine with that - just because one party has an interest doesn't make it a 'pseudo-relationship'.
Take another example, where I spent an afternoon with a guy I *REALLY* liked and even thought I might have a chance with. I was wrong, and it hurt a lot. But that doesn't make him a 'user'! He's an awesome Godly guy, and we're still friends.
If my heart gets bruised occasionally, oh well, I guess that means I'm human. Even if it gets bruised as a result of a silly mistake, it's still not the end of the world! As someone said a while ago, 'guarding your heart' doesn't mean avoiding hurt at all costs. Hurt is a part of life, sometimes you'll be the receiver and sometimes the giver. There doesn't always need to be someone to blame and there don't always have to be changes made in future situations. I'd rather retain my openness than withdraw in an effort to protect myself. One day, one of these risks will pay off.
35. James said the following at 12:52 PM on Aug 2:
To all you discontented, still-single women out there, here's a response from a still-single 20-something guy.
The BIGGEST turn-off to me when deciding to ask a lady out on a date is, when getting to know her as a friend, she so bemoans how being a biblical, godly woman (meek, submissive, etc., etc. ref. Proverbs 31) is so out of touch with how she needs to be at work.
UGH! I'm looking for a godly woman, ladies, not a career-go-getter. now, career is fine and all and I have zero problems with marrying a girl who has a career. However, when she'll sacrifice biblical living for that career, then I know that her priorities are totally out of whack.
I'll give y'all an example. I have a friend, a good friend. She and her husband got married a little over a year ago (her husband, btw, is also a good friend of mine and former college roommate), and she's now expecting. Now, this girl is one you'd think could own the world. She's smart (advanced engineering degree), well-read, well-mannered, beautiful, and has a fantastic position as an engineer with a great company. However, she's absolutely a proverbs 31 woman. There is no mistaking with her that God is first, followed by family, THEN work. When work becomes a burden to taking care of a family, then that's when she quits the career field. That's what she has told me. Now THAT attitude is the kind of attitude that I, and alot of other Christian men are looking for. We're not looking for a weak, walk-all-over-me, can't-make-decisions-for-myself woman. We're looking for women who are striving towards the example provided in Proverbs 31.
The bitterness and vitriol I see from you ladies here is so counter to that that I'm thinking, "No wonder they can't find any good men. They've driven them off with their complaining!" Proverbs also says some very harsh things about a nagging wife and about a constantly-arguing wife. Well, "I'm not a wife", you say. Well, I bet that those wives described were already like that before they got married. Don't wait till you're married to start developing attributes that you should have when you're married, or start eliminating attributes you shouldn't have when married. I myself am striving to do that, whether or not I get married soon or at all. And while I may be tempted towards bitterness because so many of the good godly women near my age are already married or in relationships leading to marriage, and it seems none are left for me, I refuse to give in to bitterness. Bitterness is a vile poison that seems comforting, but in reality ruins all that is appealing about you and makes it corrupt and ugly. Don't be naive, but for heaven's sake, stop with the bitterness and take a measure of peace from the Father who provides all things at their proper time! Your discontent is only showing a lack of faith in God. Frustrations are understandable, but to unrepentantly wallow in them is sinful.
So, get over your anger with the Church. Yes the church has failings, but neither are you perfect either. Learn to exhibit a measure of grace, and I don't just mean on the outside, but on the inside in your heart (which is what your Heavenly Father sees) even moreso. I'll tell you this, it is a gentle, humble spirit that attracts a godly man, not an aggressive, discontented spirit. And this doesn't just apply towards getting married, but towards life itself.
It's funny. The attributes that are needed in marriage are the same things that God wants to develop in all His children (believers). Gee, you'd think that He designed marriage to help with that. So, it flows logically that if you're not exhibiting those character qualities which would (biblicaly, not necessarily culturally even within church culture) be seen to be helpful towards getting/being married, then you're probably also not exhibiting some qualities that the Word exhorts ALL believers to have, regardless of their married state or not.
Remember Paul's exhortation for contentment and contentment's source in Phillipians.
Grace and Peace from your Brother in Christ Jesus,
~Jamie
36. BDB said the following at 3:40 PM on Aug 2:
Um...talking to a woman alone is inappropriate now? And people wonder why Christian's aren't getting married...
Keep in mind that these same guys who are being told to not talk with a woman alone at church are probably getting invitations to lunch and drinks from non-Christian women. Do we really want to make it impossibly hard for Christians to get to know one another?
Though, I'm pretty sure my church leadership is different. A couple of weeks ago, one of our pastors (and my small group leader) was describing to someone else how they were trying to set up another single guy they know by deliberately seating a specific single woman next to him at some event. They were lamenting that he didn't even talk to her.
Of course, now I'm going to wonder what they're up to every time they seat someone next to me...
37. Exchurchmouse said the following at 6:52 PM on Aug 2:
To Elizabeth (#9) - I really like the idea of adopting a grandparent!
Jen (#23) - I think that the idea of legal arrangements with platonic friends is interesting. I can't comment much about it because the only future plan I thought of creating recently is a will. You never know when Glory may come (sorry guys, I think Jim Eliott is cool and I like how he calls going home with the Lord "Glory")
To everybody: I never really understood why there is this belief that being single makes you less prepared for ministry than being married. This is because I never had any problems finding my niche at the churches I belonged to.
If you are treated like an outcast at your church because of your marital status, I would say that is pretty sad. I think that it just boils down to the social landscape of the church and how people are valued. I left one church because I didn't like the unspoken criteria used to judge and evaluate people.
If you feel as if you are being judged on a continual basis despite your efforts to reach out, it is time to consider the possibility of a) seeking another local church. b) seeking another means of fellowship outside your church or a combination of both. Changing churches thoughtfully is not a sign of spiritual failure.
A year ago, I founded a fellowship group for people in my area and I have made many great friends. Coincidentally, most of them are single men and women. Shortly after I hosted the group's second meeting, I summoned up the strength to leave my last church. Since I started attending my current church, I have made a 180 in my attitude towards others, my self concept and most of all, my attitude towards the Gospel.
The social landscape you plant yourself into and the way you adapt to its changes can impact your future.
38. Nate said the following at 9:18 PM on Aug 2:
To renee68:
I definitely agree with you that this is a big problem. Most of the churches that I have been to seem to be treating singles as an after-thought. In my opinion, a lot of married couples get wrapped up in their own world and forget to reach out to singles. But, I could say the same thing about myself, too.
The church I am currently attending has very few singles. The upside is that it is full of elderly, retired couples who have walked with God their entire lives and know how to love people. I just completed a 2 year mission term under very challenging conditions. It was a huge blessing to know that I had faithful people in my church praying for me. At the Wed. night prayer meeting last week, I realized that I was the only single under thirty. But that fact didn't really matter to me because everyone sitting around me knows who I am, loves me, and will hold me accountable to a biblical standard of living.
I hope that there are at least some people in your church that reach out to you in love. If God has placed single's ministry on your heart, I'm sure that He will give you an avenue for that at the proper time.
39. Lisa said the following at 11:09 PM on Aug 3:
I have cared for my father for almost 6 years, since he suffered a stroke in late 2002. I feel like you people on this blog are incredibly naive, and have NO idea what it's like to care for an elderly relative whose health continues to only get worse, no matter how hard you work to take care of them. My father has heart failure, kidney failure, dementia, high blood pressure, diabetes, and recently has been hit with recurring c-diff three times. He is now in hospital, and I am hoping to be able to place him in the best assisted living I can find after he is through with rehab. I married late in life, and had my baby late in life as well. The first year my daughter was in toddler program, I could never take her to class because there was always some crisis with Dad, always another Dr. appt to take him to. Most of you seem to have absolutely NO CLUE what it means to manage the healthcare of an elderly parent. I hired a lady from an agency to help me. Before that, I had to take him to every Dr.'s appt and procedure--and there are so many--they never end. Every week, it's some new problem that needs to get checked out. Physically, mentally, emotionally, it is a crushing burden to have to care for an elderly parent for years on end. Yes, my mother cared for my grandmother, but she had a stroke and was dead in two weeks! Same with my great Aunt. My child asked me when we were going to the hospital a few weeks ago to see her grandfather, "Mommy, do we live here?" My child has seen way too many hospitals, nursing homes, and Dr.'s offices in her young life. Did I tell you that I also am helping my husband care for his frail and elderly parents? My late father-in-law had Parkinsonian dementia. For years now, my husband and I have not been able to take a vacation or even have a three day weekend without getting a phone call that something has happened to one of our parents. I tried hiring 24 hour help so that Dad would be able to live in his own home, but in the space of barely a week, the overnight caregivers fell asleep and let him fall, and one was high on drugs and kept him penned up in his bed all night. Needless to say, I fired this agency. The recurring C-diff makes it absolutely impossible for my father to come live with us. I will not put my child's life at risk. I do believe what the Bible says, He who cares not for his own has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. I do hope such people (five children who put their 61 year old mother in a home) get what they deserve.
Debbie Maken is absolutely right. Lack of marriage formation and lack of godly children being born and raised is going to have devastating consequences on the church going forward into the future. Maybe it has come to the point where at 87, my father has to go to assisted living, but as God is my witness, I will visit him every day. I think it's ridiculous to expect the church to do anything to help elderly people, and from my experience, 99% of the time it is the children who step up when parents get sick, not friends or extended family. I don't believe it's realistic to expect younger people to "adopt" an older person and care for them. Not with the medical conditions and problems today's elderly people have to deal with.
40. alex said the following at 2:15 AM on Aug 4:
Re: Connie #33:
I give a hearty second! This is a problem in the area I'm from (I live in a small community) and it is so rude! Not only that, it doesn't work. I would NEVER marry a guy that was so disrespectful to women that he only spoke to them as potential mates. Or date them. I should also add that only talking to a woman because you think you may want to date/court her makes men's advances very unattractive. It means they don't know how to be friends or properly honor women (sisters in Christ) and that is a quality that has always been on my list of non negotiables. THis is a clear case of objectification and elders, if you are going to "pull someone aside" , let it be for that!
41. Jen said the following at 6:56 AM on Aug 4:
Dear Lisa,
I empathize with your frustration, sadness/anger and exhaustion, and sense that you are experiencing significant caregiver stress. I want to encourage you to take good care of yourself. If you don't already have a personal counselor, I would recommend finding a supportive Christian counselor who can help ease the mental, emotional and spiritual burden of caring for your Dad. I know you want to be as healthy as possible in order to effectively care for those you love so much... and it takes a not-insignificant amount of time to recover from the kind of extensive caregiving you have been providing for the past six years.
I also want to encourage you because it sounds to me like you are doing a very admirable job of laying down your life to serve your family, despite the enormous personal cost to you and your children. I imagine that Jesus is smiling down at you!
May an extra measure of God's GRACE be poured out upon you in this season of your life, and may He give you supernatural joy, because the joy of the Lord is our strength! May He also open up several ways for you to receive rejuvenation and refreshment... perhaps you would consider 15 minutes of soaking prayer right before bedtime (great streaming link: www.soaking.net/downloads), or scheduling a 60 minute therapeutic massage, or a girl's night out (swap nights for babysitting), etc.)
Sending you love & prayers for times of rest & refreshing in the Lord's presence!
Jen
PS Forgot to include a little about myself... I have worked professionaly in a hospital taking care of for elderly, dementing patients with serious health conditions, and yes, I do understand how hard it can be to maintain balance in your own life, especially when a beloved parent's needs are so pressing.
42. Jen said the following at 8:47 AM on Aug 4:
Jamie,
You are a fairly young and relatively inexperienced guy, so I can understand why you would not "get" how older professional women can become discouraged and cynical about finding a good Christian husband.
You should realize that most of us didn't start out disappointed or bitter - most of us just didn't anticipate meeting the wrong kind of guy so many times before turning 30, and then realizing after 30 that our biological clocks were ticking away, applying a kind of pressure that men do not experience.
Perhaps if you had dated as many Christian men who lacked integrity or flexibility in their romantic paradigm, you might also find Ms. Elizabeth Bennett's quote quite funny, in a rather sad I-better-laugh-or-I'll-cry kind of way.
43. Lisa said the following at 9:51 AM on Aug 4:
Jen,
Thanks so much. You are right, and many, many, people have told me I need to take care of myself during this time. I try, but in addition to my father, I've got a toddler turning pre-schooler, and there are some things that just have to get done no matter how tired I might feel. I will look into your suggestions, particularly the prayer link. I do engage a massage therapist regularly, but last month missed my appointment because of the crisis with the agency I had hired, and Dad going back into the hospital again. (My therapist promised she will call me the night before my appt. this month.) Again, thank you for your very comforting words. Sincerely, Lisa.
44. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:10 PM on Aug 4:
James (#35),
The BIGGEST turn-off to me when deciding to ask a lady out on a date is, when getting to know her as a friend, she so bemoans how being a biblical, godly woman (meek, submissive, etc., etc. ref. Proverbs 31) is so out of touch with how she needs to be at work.
Why is that such a turn-off? Personally, I complain all the time at how out of sync who I have to be at work is with who I'm supposed to be in Christ...
All the more reason why I want to get married and OUT of this pathetic existence of trying to be who I'm supposed to be in a world that requires me to be something different.
My boss said something (in a completely different context) that works here...that even Christ said, though not in the same spirit.
You can't serve two masters. You have to choose. And the Godly woman who chooses Proverbs 31 IS going to feel the tension when she's at work. And she's at work because she is not married and MUST support herself.
There IS tension. Its not easy. I want to get connected here and at church...but my lack of marital status makes me a little girl to dote on at church and my lack of value for career advancement makes me an extraterrestrial at work.
So yeah...I'm gonna complain. Cuz it really is not easy or fun and makes life a lot more stressful than necessary.
I'd think you should be glad that a woman recognizes that tension rather than being two different people - one at work and one at home.
45. robsmith said the following at 7:41 PM on Aug 4:
In reference to comment #39:
Amen! I was the co-caregiver to both my wife's parents at the same time several years ago. She and I were the "local children" so the responsibility fell to us.
Until one has lived in an in home 24/7 hands-on care giving situation with rapidly dwindling resources of body, mind, spirit and money, one is speaking out of sheer ignorance, and this often turns into mere silliness. The reality is hard, the answers are difficult, and it is a special gift of grace when both patient and care-givers are able to manage some degree of dignity in these difficult situations. God bless them all. To those uninitiated into such situations, I sincerely pray wisdom and grace will visit you when you find yourself in such broken health situations.
You will learn in a unique way just how deeply you need both.
46. obewan said the following at 8:34 AM on Aug 6:
My only worry is about the move to the nursing home, or the disposition of my assets if I die at home.
I have real good long term care insurance as long as I am working for my current employer. When I retire and actually NEED the long term care insurance, it ends and I am on my own.
If I have enough assets, I plan to sell my condo and move to a Christian senior apartment possibly with meal service when I am 75 or so, whether or not I actually need to be there yet. That is, unless I get married.
47. obewan said the following at 11:02 AM on Aug 6:
Renee68 #8 says"
>>I hate to sound like an alarmist, but I see fewer and fewer singles in church. It isn't because they don't exist. It's because they aren't welcome.<<
I have to say that I would echo your sentiments and add that older singles are especially cast out of most churches since they stop singles group participation at age 30 in most cases.
I would encourage you to do an exhaustive Google search to find a Church with a singles ministry that fits your needs if that is important to you.
Churches do sometimes learn from other churches with effective ministries. The one I attend has around 300 singles, so I have no complaints. We have encouraged other churches to have their own ministries too by networking with around 10 other churches in town to promote multi-church activities.
48. BDB said the following at 12:03 PM on Aug 6:
As far as aging, there's also a difference in how people conduct themselves that impacts the willingness of others to care for them. You see this with foster kids: the kids who have sweet personalities and are easy to manage can often find relatives who will take them in. Those who have emotional or other issues are more likely to end up in some kind of government foster care.
The same thing happens when people get sick and/or old. Some people retain a sweet personality and are regularly grateful to those who are caring for them. It's pretty easy to live with that.
Dementia, on the other hand, is really really hard. Or if people are just mean, or mad at God and lashing out at everyone.
I know a woman with cancer. For the last few years, her husband has spent a few nights a week at his mother's because she cannot manage independently, refuses to move in with them, and refuses to move to a local assisted-living facility. In my opinion, it is absolutely inappropriate for an ailing parent to demand that their child choose between the sick parent and the sick wife.
Personally, I am grateful for the relatives of mine who already made arrangements for themselves. They saved up money, researched facilities, and bought into one for $100,000. They still live in the independent apartments, but the assisted-living facility and nursing home are right across the parking lot. It's kind of the best of both worlds - if one of them has a stroke or needs daily care, the other one will still live walking-distance away.
But then again, all during their life they thought through how to invest in other's lives; it doesn't really surprise me that they've thought through the winter of their lives, too.
49. david williams said the following at 1:21 PM on Aug 7:
The title says it all, Getting Old Alone. Only way to do it and be happy (and have any money)!
50. Dan realname said the following at 10:59 AM on Aug 8:
Jen Post #23:
Your reference to "all the good men are picked over" is very offensive. I am not sure if you truly believe such a comment, especially since it would be impossible for you to know personally every single christian man in your area over 30yrs old.
When anyone on this blog writes a comment about "all the good women are taken" or "the only single christian women left are overweight, bitter, etc" then rightly so there is a flood of indignant responses. You and many others here really need to stop reading and buying into our secular culture's dating misery and pig slop (even if it is from a so-called "christian book"), or some of the marriage mandater's gripes, etc. There ARE good men over 30 or 35 yrs old out there. Just 'cause a man is single and over 30 doesn't mean that he is no longer worthy. There are some people who, I believe, that God molds IN HIS TIME to be a blessing to others when THEY NEED THAT PERSON. That person will be a jewel to their future spouse all in GODS TIME, and not one day sooner.
And yes, it DOES get harder to find good dates/mates when you age. I myself was thinking a while ago when attending church why all the good looking women in that church were already taken. And then I felt like the Lord was telling me that such an attitude was not healthy to have for myself and others, and will only hinder my chances for a healthy marriage. Such an attitude, I believe, is sinful.
Believe me, such an attitude of whining and griping and complaining will only DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY. Such negative attitudes towards the opposite sex WILL show up on your outsides.
If you feel compelled to respond to this or mock any of what I said, then please do so here, and not on some other blog or site.
51. Emily, formerly known as Exchurchmouse said the following at 4:38 PM on Aug 14:
Yep, Dan realname - after reading #23's post, I am in agreement with you. I find that sort of griping rather unbecoming and as one who is friends with many nice single Christian men, I myself am offended.
Turning to Jen (#23) - If you do read this, I just want to tell you that I acknowledge the difficulty you are facing. But, how does blaming men and the church lead you closer to developing fulfilling relationships in and out of the romantic spectrum?
Based on your post, I am rather turned off by your remarks. It has been difficult for me to cultivate substantial relationships with other sisters (and brothers) in Christ who have that attitude towards the opposite gender and relationships because that attitude does bleed into how they regard other people in their sphere of influence.
52. Ebony said the following at 2:34 PM on Aug 18:
As a single soon to be 30 Christian women. I can understand many of the post here by women who are frustrated. I come from a very large family and aside from one of my sister who is sick, all of my sisters, cousins, and the majority of my friends are married with children. So most of the time I am an outcast. It used to bother me to think that I might not enjoy having a family. I can say this though, that the more I passionately pour my life out for others and foster that deep abiding reltionship with Christ the less I worry about marriage. God knows what is best for me and in HIS time it will come to pass. Do I have a biological time clock? sure do but God is in control of that as well. Even if I never get married and have children, God is more than enough for me. This life is just a pilgrimage for us saints..we are just passing through. Life will be different and better in heaven. We are not promised anywhere in the Word marriage and children but we are promised that Jesus would never leave us or forsake us.
53. Rachael said the following at 4:44 PM on Aug 18:
Ebony,
great attitude to remember the brevity of life! And neat that the more you give to others and spend time with Christ, the less you worry about marriage.
Probably loving God and others could push other anxieties aside as well.
Loving God and loving others are the most important commandments - way to put them into practice :)
54. Dan real/name said the following at 7:42 PM on Aug 18:
Thanks Emily (#52) and Ebony (#53) for your responses. Some Christians (not all, mind you) will find themselves single longer than they would like because of their own attitudes, plain and simple. And I write the previous statement because I am someone that had unhealthy attitudes for such a long time, and I can tell you that very few healthy women would have wanted to be with me with some of the attitudes that I have struggled with (and am still working to correct).
If I may borrow some advice from the secular business and entertainment world that I think applies here: my brother in law is very successful in both areas, and I can tell you that NONE of his success has come about by whining, finger-pointing, complaining, and walking around with a chip on his shoulder thinking that world owes him something. In fact, I can probably guarantee that most of the successful people in this world (the ones that we would like to emulate of course, not the more negative ones we see and hear about), are the ones that have the most positive attitudes, are encouraging of others, never point a finger at someone else because of their losses (i.e, they take responsibility for their lives).
Yes, some people do find themselves single due to the actions and attitudes of others. However, this isn't always the case, and the spectrum of life experiences amongst Christian singles isn't as easy to pin down and explain as some would like you to believe (i.e., just cause a man or woman is single and 40 yrs old or more doesn't automatically mean that they are defective and unmarriable).
Again, negative attitudes towards the opposite sex will manifest themselves, and will most likely drive them away.
55. Jen said the following at 5:49 AM on Aug 19:
Just a quick comment on the idea of being a different person at work vs. being a godly person - I actually find it really troubling to think that Christians find it so hard to be 'the salt of the earth' in a work environment that they'd rather escape into their Christian family.
How else are we supposed to let Christ's love shine into the lives of unbelievers? Isn't it a wonderful opportunity to witness to others and serve God in the position where we are?
I'm training to be a doctor - and I am completely convinced that God wants me to serve him through medicine. Why should there be tension in your "work" persona and your "godly" persona if serving Christ reflects itself in every aspect of who you are??
56. Chelsea Moore said the following at 4:27 PM on Aug 25:
Dear Fellow Christian Singles,
I find this forum quite interesting and full of thoughtful, intelligent people (single people may have the advantage of developing their intellects more than their married counterparts), but it is also laced with disillusionment and grim realism.
Of course there are challenges with being single, both in a spiritual context and otherwise. But my mind is led to wonder whether we, too, are guilty of perpetuating our already fractured culture by unofficially identifying ourselves exclusively by our marital status. Now we are a special interest group.
That prospect notwithstanding, I have had my own share of challenges--some similar, some different--connected with my singleness within the church.
I think the most glaring deficiencies revolve around being infantilized, not encountering many other singles, and "primadonna" Christian men.
I'd like to expound on the latter two. Although the single population is said to be increasing, I don't see that reflected in my local churches. It is hard finding other singles. Also, in my community,the singles are rather unsavory--largely troubled people written off by those better situated.
The second item concerns the quality, available men who do exist in the church. Although I am a Born-Again Christian, I am essentially overlooked because I don't meet their standard. They tend to be good-looking, confident (even arrogant) men who are traditional-minded, and seek out women who are often pretty, submissive and pose no threat to the perceived authority of the man.
Though I consider myself to be attractive, I am not submissive, and sport an intellect that men like that refuse to recognize as being a legitimate part of the female experience. So I am alone in the romantic sense, at least. But I am not bitter.
There's much more to write on the subject, but I'll leave it at this for now. I hope someone can relate or would like to otherwise share.
Thanks!
Chelsea
57. Chelsea Moore said the following at 8:49 AM on Aug 26:
Jen,
I find it troubling you have difficulty conceptualizing the dichotomy between one's Christian persona and one's work persona. This is an issue Christians discuss on a regular basis! I hear it in my Bible studies, church, etc.
Needless to say, we live in a fallen world. And Christians must endure all kinds of animosity in many work environments, irrespective of how we approach people.
Recall Paul and the other apostle's struggles when they sought to evangelize those around them. They were imprisoned and dealt with in so many harsh ways. Contrast this "work life" with their private lives, which I daresay were more fulfilling.
Ever hear of Christians being fed to the lions?
Jen, I don't mean to discourage you, just to acquaint you with some realities. It sound like you're quite young.
Chelsea
58. Rachael said the following at 11:08 AM on Aug 26:
Wow, Chelsea...seems to me that Jen strongly has the desire to let the Spirit inside her shine at work. It seems she doesn't feel like she's 2 different people. Isn't this a good thing...?
59. Chelsea Moore said the following at 11:53 AM on Aug 26:
Rachael,
I think you misunderstand. Read my comment again:
Needless to say, we live in a fallen world. And Christians must endure all kinds of animosity in many work environments, irrespective of how we approach people.
You can still let the Spirit shine, so to speak, but the Spirit is not naive. As God's servants, we should (and will, if we understand properly) be offended by things that offend God. Also, I can't tell you how many people I've not pre-judged or treated badly, only to still hear negative comments about Christians, or otherwise be treated wrongly. It is a fact of life.
We are NOT two different people necessarily; it's just that our Christianity is received in a wholly different manner at work than it is at the church.
I am struck by your lack of knowledge on the subject. Still, there are many "Christians" who go to services, but don't embrace the truth portion of the Gospel, just the grace part. Not saying this is true of you, but...
Chelsea
60. Rachael said the following at 12:33 PM on Aug 26:
Hi Chelsea,
I agree that there is animosity in the world, which runs in stark contrast to our faith.
We all have different struggles. I don't believe every single Christian's strongest battle will be the persona battle. But even if some don't feel the heat as strongly as others, it doesn't mean they have don't have other battles to deal with and are any less spiritual (I know that's not what you were saying, though).
I was struck by the tone that came across toward Jen's comment, so my immediate gut reaction was to attempt to defend her. You did mention you didn't mean to discourage, so I realize I didn't need to attempt to defend her. It was my gut reaction.
Perhaps you already know this, but I think your tone and in your comments can be possibly misinterpreted by and shock someone with a personality like mine.
Regarding your perception of my lack of knowledge, I'd LOVE to embrace the grace part of the gospel more, actually. And at the same time, in fact, I believe the gospel is true.
That's all I have to say on this matter. I just felt a need to defend Jen, even though it may not have been necessary. Your personality and mine are clearly different, and tones in writing can be easily misinterpreted, so that was my reaction. I apologize.
Peace!
61. Jo said the following at 12:48 PM on Aug 26:
Chelsea...
Jen was replying to the earlier discussion in this post, about whether a Christian woman needs to present a different persona at work than at home. For example, does a woman needs to be aggressive in order to get ahead in her career? Some had suggested this, and that this 'tension' between what they were supposed to be in Christ and what they found they had to be at work, had made them eager to leave the workplace.
Jen's comment was that this kind of abdication from the world because we don't like what the world expects of us is troubling to her - that we should seek to be salt and light in the world rather than leave it because being a Christian in the world is too hard.
I think you must have misunderstood her, otherwise your criticism of her comment doesn't make much sense to me.
Also, I have to say your tone was a little condescending to both Jen and Rachael - suggesting that Jen sounded 'young' and that Rachael might not even be a real Christian...
62. IMO said the following at 1:56 PM on Aug 26:
Chelsea Moore --
I hope you are not as rude/arrogant in real life as you come off in your posts. Just an fyi--being smart doesn't mean you are better or know better than other people.
"single people may have the advantage of developing their intellects more than their married counterparts), "
What?? Where did you come up with this fact?
"Also, in my community,the singles are rather unsavory--largely troubled people written off by those better situated."
Aren't you also part of this singles community? Are you calling your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ "unsavory?"
"Jen, I don't mean to discourage you, just to acquaint you with some realities. It sound like you're quite young."
Sounds like you are looking down on Jen for writing her opinion. Condescending much?
"I am struck by your lack of knowledge on the subject."
Condescending again.
63. Texas Craig said the following at 2:52 PM on Aug 26:
Chelsea:
I am not sure what your concern with Jen and Racheal's comments were. From reading your earlier post, it did appear that you were saying there was a dichotomoy. To me, that is a totaly unbiblical view. I don't think whether one is "young" has anything to do with it.
To be honest, we are to be the same regardless of the environment, because our identity in Christ is to be our identity, period. I think you agree with this based on your more recent post, but it was not totally clear from your earlier post.
I have always worked in secular workplaces, some very hostile to the gospel. But, I have also always kept in my office a picture of Jesus offering counsel to a man in a suit. The caption is Psalm 1:1. I put that in my office to make it clear who I am and who provides me with counsel. Then, I live a consistent life of love to those around me and I have found that I have not had to deal with much negativity. Even people that disagree with my views cannot argue with my character or my love for them. That is to be our greatest witness and it is to be something that we show regardless of the environment, work or recreational.
Peace!
64. Chelsea Moore said the following at 5:18 PM on Aug 26:
Jo,
The writer who contrasted personas referred to "scripts" at both church and work. This led me to remark on the bad treatment that Christians can receive in the workplace, in spite of
an outward Spirit of grace, etc. This is not exclusive to me; rather, it is a challenge to the body as a whole.
Indeed, Focus talks about such things from time to time on their radio programs.
Jen's intentions are good; however, as stated, there's no guarantee of reciprocal treatment from associates at work. I was merely highlighting an unintended consequence of living by Grace. I don't believe, as you assert, that she was cognizant of that, let alone that our concerns in this regard are paltry and should be held against us.
I hope this clarifies things.
Chelsea
65. Jen said the following at 7:10 PM on Sep 27:
Wow - I hadn't checked this in a while and then found all these comments! Jo, TexasCraig, Rachael and IMO - it is lovely to hear support and encouragement from people across the globe! (I'm from Australia). Ok, here goes...
Chelsea,
I am actually quite young (so it's not an insult!). But I have spoken to many mentors (mature Christian doctors) about problems and challenges that they face in their profession - most of which aren't to do with crabby workmates, but plenty of moral dilemmas. One of them was ordered by a consultant at the hospital to keep administering morphine to a cancer patient even though those doses would cause death (he didn't do it by the way), another asked by a lesbian couple to write them a referral to IVF, and so on. And of course there will always be workmates, stressful situations and social judgement to deal with. The point was that these doctors were very firm in encouraging us to face all these realities in a godly way, which would glorify Him far more than simply retreating from the world because it was easier.
So yes, I'm young and hopeful, but very encouraged by doctors (ages 30s-50s) who have worked in these places, dealt with these things, and still are passionate about serving God where they are! I'll bet it's not easy but it's something I aspire to...