Cool But Meaningless Friendships: Episode #27 by Motte Brown on 07/25/2008 at 5:30 PM

iTunes | Listen Now/RSS

Whenever the summer Olympics begin, I like to think that the only thing that separated me from being an Olympian was that I wasn't born in a communist country. I'm the type of guy who really needed that familial separation to focus on my swimming.

Don't laugh. I have several blue ribbons and trophies from the local country club growing up to prove my potential to make the U.S. swim team.

And if you think I'm delusional, Lisa begins this week's The Boundless Show by claiming all she needs is four years to make the U.S. crew team for the next summer Olympics. No talent necessary for this event. Just being buff and a little sunscreen is all you need. Or so she says.

But I'll tell you what team I could make if they had an event for it: marathon camping for Batman movie tickets. Now that's a sport that'd really raise the American medal count if it existed. And it's something the team talks about to end this week's chat session.

Cool But Meaningless Friendships -- 6:45
Let's face it. We all want to be cool and have cool friends. I have one that I've named a particular style of dressing after. It's called "The Carlton." It's when you wear a long sleeve button down shirt untucked with shorts. It looks good on me. But will my friendship with Carlton weather the tough times? This week Lisa, Candice and Steve talk about moving from entertainment-based friendships to ones that are marked by mutual support.

Why Kevin DeYoung Isn't Emergent -- 22:40
This is one of my favorite Culture segments. Lisa's interview with Kevin DeYoung, author of Why We're Not Emergent, is engaging and informative. I loved this quote from Kevin: "There's not a single college student in our church who comes because I know anything about The Matrix or American Idol or Moby. I don't even know what those things are, I just know about them. No, people come because they want to know about Jesus. That's how we try to be relevant, by giving them the gospel." There's a whole lot more. So don't miss this one.

Never Been Dated -- 39:40
Ooh, do we have a good Inbox this week! It's from a listener who believes she has done all the right things to position herself for marriage but has yet to be asked out on a date. What will Candice say to someone who seems to have taken all her counsel but with no success? Well, Candice has some good advice for this young woman that will take a little humility to put into practice.

Cool But Meaningless Friendships: Episode #27 by Motte Brown on 07/25/2008 at 5:30 PM

iTunes | Listen Now/RSS

Whenever the summer Olympics begin, I like to think that the only thing that separated me from being an Olympian was that I wasn't born in a communist country. I'm the type of guy who really needed that familial separation to focus on my swimming.

Don't laugh. I have several blue ribbons and trophies from the local country club growing up to prove my potential to make the U.S. swim team.

And if you think I'm delusional, Lisa begins this week's The Boundless Show by claiming all she needs is four years to make the U.S. crew team for the next summer Olympics. No talent necessary for this event. Just being buff and a little sunscreen is all you need. Or so she says.

But I'll tell you what team I could make if they had an event for it: marathon camping for Batman movie tickets. Now that's a sport that'd really raise the American medal count if it existed. And it's something the team talks about to end this week's chat session.

Cool But Meaningless Friendships -- 6:45
Let's face it. We all want to be cool and have cool friends. I have one that I've named a particular style of dressing after. It's called "The Carlton." It's when you wear a long sleeve button down shirt untucked with shorts. It looks good on me. But will my friendship with Carlton weather the tough times? This week Lisa, Candice and Steve talk about moving from entertainment-based friendships to ones that are marked by mutual support.

Why Kevin DeYoung Isn't Emergent -- 22:40
This is one of my favorite Culture segments. Lisa's interview with Kevin DeYoung, author of Why We're Not Emergent, is engaging and informative. I loved this quote from Kevin: "There's not a single college student in our church who comes because I know anything about The Matrix or American Idol or Moby. I don't even know what those things are, I just know about them. No, people come because they want to know about Jesus. That's how we try to be relevant, by giving them the gospel." There's a whole lot more. So don't miss this one.

Never Been Dated -- 39:40
Ooh, do we have a good Inbox this week! It's from a listener who believes she has done all the right things to position herself for marriage but has yet to be asked out on a date. What will Candice say to someone who seems to have taken all her counsel but with no success? Well, Candice has some good advice for this young woman that will take a little humility to put into practice.

Comments

[1. BDB said the following at 11:49 PM on Jul 25:]

1

Best line from Lisa: "You need to make it through a quarrel with me and still be friends at the end."

YES - More people need to learn to do this!

I liked the,"It is written," part, too.

On the delaying marriage thing; there is another facet that I don't think we've discussed much. I know a 20-year-old woman who was recently telling a group of us that she didn't want to think about marriage until she was "super-independent." This was really because her parents had recently divorced.

I've been thinking about that, and I've come to realize that I know other women who seem to be focusing on their careers, but now that I think about it, either their parents or someone close to them has gotten divorced. So they don't say it out loud, but they simply don't believe they can trust anyone, so they want to be established in their career, own a house, etc., first so they are confident in their ability to make it on their own - so they don't fall apart like they see others fall apart.

Just today I learned that a woman I know like this is engaged. She's had a successful career and bought her own house eight years ago. She will be getting married for the first time just before her 36th birthday.

[2. khalil said the following at 9:22 AM on Jul 26:]

2

I am going to respond to the last paragraph of BDB's #1 comment here, are you stating that as a good thing or a bad thing...or an example to prove your point (I am not meaning this as negative in any way and I am happy for your friend)?

In general the tone of Boundless seems to be that it is a bad thing to marry later (must marry early and younger) and that you have to start bearing children (one of my friends recently took exception when I used the term breeding in reaction to hearing about a mutual friend having 4 children), all in the name of being a good Christian family. What is wrong with waiting, what is wrong with securing some form of wealth, success, or maturity before you get married? Some of the "problems" or fears that people use to avoid marriage can effectively be addressed in a relationship, but I don't know if I would immediately jump to calling them a cop-out or unfounded. We all know marriage does take a risk and shouldn't be taken lightly. It is just tiresome to continually see people look down on those that have chosen to delay marriage.

[3. BDB said the following at 12:31 PM on Jul 26:]

3

Responding to Khalil (#2)

I was mostly thinking aloud; it was late.

The Boundless discussion, particularly Candace's focus, often focuses on the rewards of career vs. parenting for women, and argues against delaying marriage to seek career rewards. The consequences in terms of fertility, etc., are well documented in other discussions.

I wonder if that's not the root cause.

For children of divorce, or those who've been around a bad divorce, they've seen how much people can struggle in that situation. So - while still in high school - they make the decision that the first order of business is to develop the skills to make it on their own.

It's not an irrational fear. Statistically, divorce is far more likely than having your house burned down or causing a serious car accident. But it is wise to have insurance for both.

I think it would be worth exploring the possibility that many Westerners are delaying marriage while they build up an insurance policy of skills that will make them independent. In a Western economy, you can outsource lots of life's drudgery if you have enough money - cooking, cleaning, laundry, yard work, etc. The ability to generate sufficient income thus becomes the insurance policy against being that single mother whose husband left her with a couple of toddlers.

If someone has decided to follow the "insurance policy" route, it may look from the outside like they are focusing on their career.

[4. J. said the following at 1:13 PM on Jul 26:]

4

I really enjoyed Lisa's interview with Kevin DeYoung. I bought his book a couple of weeks ago and am really looking forward to reading it.

He mentioned that the emergent church really seems to be taking off in locations where evangelicalism has traditionally been strong, e.g., Grand Rapids, MI. So how would he explain the popularity of Mars Hill in Seattle? I would say that the emergent philosophy also resonates with people who are politically and socially liberal (as Seattleites generally are), but I would have loved to hear Mr. DeYoung's take on this, too.

On to the Inbox segment, which focused on a woman in her late twenties who had never dated. I agree that her asking a mentor for an honest assessment of her weaknesses could be beneficial. However, this kind of thing is helpful for all believers -- single *and* married. I would have reminded her of the fact that married people are imperfect, too -- often in ways that sometimes put a significant strain on their marriages. We really need to do away with the implication that people who are single are such simply because there is something wrong with them. There is something wrong with everyone!

I'd be curious to know what the woman's social circle looks like and how it may contribute to her being single. Do the women in her church around her age significantly outnumber the men? Is dating encouraged or discouraged? Does she offer too much to men in terms of friendship?

[5. D.Williams said the following at 4:05 PM on Jul 26:]

5

In response to #2, I also agree delaying marriage is not always a bad thing. Boundless makes suggestions that as young Christians, it is our duty, or at least an advantage to marry and to start having children sooner than later. While in some cases this may be true, it is not true for everyone. I know many young people (around the ages of 20-24), who were married, some have children, and they were not mentally or financially ready to partake in a succesful marriage. Needless to say most of those marriages did not last. They are now 22, 23 year olds who are divorced and some are single parents. Oftentimes they neglected college to focus on their marriage, and once you have a child, it is extremely difficult to go back and finish your education, so they struggle to make ends meet. I do not think anyone should be pressured (or allow themselves to be pressured), into making a life changing decision when they are not ready.

The main thing that concerns me when readers ask questions about should I marry, should I wait, is this this the one, etc., the response almost always neglects the most important factor to all of your life's questions, and I know it is a cliche, but pray! God created each and every one of us, He knows who you are, where you are going, and what you have been through. He knows what you can handle right now and what you will be able to handle, say, 10 years from now. It may be for you to marry your boyfriend at 23, and it may be for you to remain single until you're 30. I appreciate the efforts of Boundless at what it represents, but people, please remember, God knows you better than anyone, better than you know yourself, so cast your cares on him.

[6. D.Williams said the following at 4:16 PM on Jul 26:]

6

I forgot to mention that I also know a lot of couples who married young and are doing just fine. Still, seek God first in all that you do.

[7. Mike said the following at 7:13 PM on Jul 26:]

7

BDB:

I think there's a significant danger in overemphasizing the notion of being independent and self-sufficient as an "insurance policy" in case of divorce. It can create, I think, a subconscious attitude of having only one foot in the marriage. Emotionally, the individual isn't fully committed to the marriage because there's that notion in the back of your mind that "I can always leave if it doesn't work". It's very similar to a cohabiting couple, who know they haven't really committed to each other.

We know for a fact that second marriages fail at an even higher rate than first marriages. One reason is because the parties have been through it before and, therefore, the instability and mistrust have already been sown. I think that this may be part of the reason why children of divorced households also show a high rate of divorce themselves: That trauma is hard to overcome, and results in an inability to commit completely.

Now, there's nothing wrong with making preparations in case of the death of a spouse. But having it in your mind that "my spouse is unreliable" or "I've made preparations to leave" will show itself. It'll come out during a fight, or in subtle signals. It'll come out in signs of mistrust - and that will poison your marriage. It won't survive unless both parties are "all in".

[8. Rachael said the following at 3:30 PM on Jul 27:]

8

D. Williams (5) - good advice in your second paragraph! Strange how something that seems so easy (prayer) can so frequently get neglected! Thanks also for your last sentence remdinder about casting your cares on the One who knows us better than we know ourselves.

So weird how some of us can get so caught up into doing/contemplating X, Y, and Z about relationship issues while neglecting to consistently lift up our concerns and insecurity before our God who holds everything ultimately in His control. Yeah, sometimes it may be wise to do/consider X, Y, and Z, but always we (myself included) should consistently bring our cares back to Christ and not subconsciously think that X, Y, and Z are the tickets to fix it (it=the concern or problem).

Anyway thanks for the reminder to pray and cast our cares upon God...

[9. BDB said the following at 6:58 PM on Jul 27:]

9

Mike #7 wrote:

>>I think there's a significant danger in overemphasizing the notion of being independent and self-sufficient as an "insurance policy" in case of divorce.<<

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good thing. What I'm saying is that this is a consequence of the culture of divorce in the U.S. A lot of people simply don't trust anyone that much.

But don't take my word for it - go through a mental inventory of people you know who seem to be delaying marriage in favor of their careers. How many of them experienced a nasty divorce, either of their parents or of a close relative?

[10. Leah said the following at 7:47 PM on Jul 27:]

10

Khalil and D. Williams - if you've had a rounded look at Boundless's opinion on marriage, you will find that they look down not on people who delay marriage, but people who delay marriage for the wrong reasons. If, for one reason or another, you can't support a wife or children, then I'm sure most Boundless bloggers would agree you shouldn't marry yet. Or if there's been a serious shortage of marry-able people around you! But if you purposely put off getting married for no good reason, that's where the problem lies. Boundless does not condemn older brides and grooms point-blank.

[11. busby SEO Challenge said the following at 4:33 AM on Jul 28:]

11

Hi you are good! I’m a poet too, though not as good as you. You have such a great potential. Keep it up! Busby Seo Challenge

[12. mary kate said the following at 9:30 AM on Jul 28:]

12

there's not always a reason why someone is still single when they don't want to be. guess what... sometimes it's outside of our control! sometimes, we've done all the right things, read all the books, tried dating, not dating, internet dating, prayer, mentors, groups of friends, prayer with groups of friends, small groups, therapy etc. :)

i just say that so you don't fall into the trap of continually feeling like you have to work on yourself. sometimes god is just doing stuff that we can't see. hang in there, pray, and of course seek out a mentor. i also recommend 'how to get a date worth keeping' by henry cloud. even if you don't agree with all of his methods, it gives great insight on how to be more open to people of the opposite sex, and healthy dating behaviour.

[13. Ben said the following at 1:47 PM on Jul 28:]

13

J. (#4):

Just as a clarifier, the Mars Hill church in Seattle is a far cry from Bell's church or anything else in the emergent movement, despite the confusion caused by the shared name. Mark Driscoll, pastor of the Seattle Mars Hill, is the author of Vintage Jesus and is way more theologically conservative than any of the emergent pastors/authors DeYoung writes about in Not Emergent.

That said, I agree with your larger point about emergent appeal to political and social liberals, and I think you'll like the analysis of the emergent church in Not Emergent if you read it (I'm in the middle of reading it also).

[14. Candace said the following at 2:04 PM on Jul 28:]

14

In response to Never Been Dated - wow. Can I just say I relate? Up until recently, I hadn’t ever been asked out, and I still have yet to be asked out by a Christian. I’m almost 27, put myself out there, and pretty (I’m a model) without being stuck up and I’ve even got a bit of nerdiness in me too. ;p In my case I sometimes wonder if it’s just that I’m such a go-getter that guys are intimidated…but I mean, should I become lazy, apathetic, and wilty for the sake of winning a guy? I don’t believe so. But I do think that strong men are rare and almost non-existent and it’s somehow hard for Christian men to ask any women out. Also, you have to realize that maybe it’s just not God’s time yet, as crazy as that might seem at our age!! Anyhow, be encouraged, you’re not the only one!

[15. Craig M. said the following at 4:10 PM on Jul 28:]

15

Hmm....Candace, I suspect that if you'll simply provide a link to your webpage, or facebook, or whatever the cool kids are using these days...that you might have some takers. :)

[16. Susan Knight said the following at 6:23 PM on Jul 28:]

16

I don't understand the reasoning of young women to desire marriage especially in early 20's..life is just beginning and everyone should learn to be on their own ..it will probably be the only time..but it is a good way to get to know yourself..plenty of time
to marry and have a family..it's a bigger step than we know and should be forever decision..so take your time..this is the best time of your life!
enjoy it and take advantage of school and all the things that the world has to offer young people..
maturity does not come just because you are out of college..so chill
and remember that those who are equally "yoked" will be blessed...
but doesn't mean it's easy
pray every day for guidance...

[17. Mike said the following at 7:59 PM on Jul 28:]

17

Craig -

You're reading my mind. I mean really, Candace - never been asked?!? That blows my mind!

[18. BDB said the following at 10:33 PM on Jul 28:]

18

Candace (#14) wrote:

>>I’m almost 27, put myself out there, and pretty (I’m a model) without being stuck up and I’ve even got a bit of nerdiness in me too.<<

Actually, that reminds me of a story...

There was a model-looking transfer student at my university who generated a reaction like that. Specifically, it generated a bet: a bunch of guys betting who could get her to say 10 words to them first.

(Um - I'm not saying who won the bet, but I will say it didn't take long.)

Anyway, she had made one comment. For some reason, someone asked her about the dating situation on campus. Her response was reportedly, "Why have hamburger here when you can get steak at home?" I think it was actually in the school paper for some reason. (It was a small school.)

This generated a demonstration by one of the fraternities. At lunch one day, a dozen of them each delivered a plate with a hamburger to the table where she was eating lunch. (It was a really small school.)

But I think she was just a little shy. I ended up working with her on homecoming or something, I can't remember exactly what. She seemed pretty normal in that setting.

[19. Elizabeth said the following at 3:59 AM on Jul 29:]

19

Susan, I know why young women desire to marry in thier early 20s (I married at age 22), God has laid marriage in their heart. God created some women to be married and fufull godly roles within that marriage. What is the benifit of learning to live on your own when you will have to learn to live with someone else?
You are right when you say marriage is a forever decision and you should take your time to make sure you are ready. But once you are ready, and God shows you who are to marry, don't delay! Things only get better.
Marriage is hard but as a married women of 3 whole years and a mother of a 10 month old, these are the best days of my life.

[20. Kelly said the following at 4:19 AM on Jul 29:]

20

"Never been asked" is actually really, really common in Christian circles. I wasn't officially asked on a date until about age 26.

[21. H.A.P said the following at 4:33 AM on Jul 29:]

21

In response to the Inbox question:

I have a friend who I always thought was the picture of feminine perfection. She was tall, slim, blond, blue, and busty. She was 23 before she was ever asked out on a date by anyone!! At times this put a strain on our friendship because I was asked out alot in my early twenties. I'm a little short, a little on the heavy side, and a brunette...certainly nothing special. I never made an effort to go to a singles group or "put myself out there."

At the time, I thought that her looks were intimidating to the average guy and she has a very forceful personality that isn't appealing to alot of men. But who can really say why some girls get asked out and others don't??

The good news is she did get married at 25! Two weeks after myself! It took the poor guy ages to get up the courage...he is quite shy. But he won his prize, and they are a very good match, very happily married, and expecting a baby boy in about a month.

[22. mary kate said the following at 8:28 AM on Jul 29:]

22

i can identify with candace.... though in my case, i've been asked out a few times. i know i'm pretty and fun and awesome and all of that, but i also know that god is bigger than me and my immediate situations. plus, i know i'm picky ;). and i'm ok with that.

[23. J. said the following at 10:00 AM on Jul 29:]

23

Ben (#13), I did some research on the Seattle Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll's current beliefs (i.e., he has distanced himself from the Emergent Church movement over the years upon becoming troubled by its theology), and it appears you are correct. Thank you for bringing this to my attention as I certainly don't want to spread any misinformation.

[24. Laurie said the following at 10:22 AM on Jul 29:]

24

Susan (#16), I will be 20 when I get married next year. I am looking forward to it with all my heart. I graduated from high school early and have been in college 2 years so far. I do good in school and have made lots of friends and learned a lot about myself, but I desire a family more than a career or getting out on my own. Honestly, I despise college. I was encouraged by your post, Elizabeth, saying that you are having the best days of your life as a young married woman. I know people look down on me because I am getting married young, but I have no regrets. I know if I walked away from this to enjoy the "best days of my life" on my own, climbing the ladder in a career, I would look back with nothing but regret that I walked away from the opportunity to start a family with my best friend (which he is!). I know that things don't always work out like this for everyone, but God has led me to this opportunity and I am very humbled and thankful.
About girls never being asked out, that one is so hard to figure out! I have gorgeous Christian girlfriends who have never been asked out (who are years older than me), but I have been asked out several times. I don't consider myself nearly as pretty as my friends who have not been asked out. I do think it has a lot to do with the way you carry yourself, and how sincere you are, then just how you look.

[25. Lindsey said the following at 10:40 AM on Jul 30:]

25

I am "never been dated", and I just wanted to say thanks to those of you with encouraging words! It is nice to know there are other ladies out there experiencing the same things as me. At least I don't feel like a total weirdo or that there is something horribly wrong with me now!! :)

[26. Warren said the following at 9:44 PM on Jul 30:]

26

You know I am shocked to hear or read about all of you women that don't get asked out and feel the way you do. I just got out of church we just watched HOPE by Louie Giglio it was an eye opener about lifes hurts and Gods great LOVE for us even when we don't understand what His plan is for us. Then i see ya'll speaking about the weakness that some of us have. I am 29 and one of those guys that don't know how to just walk up to a beautiful woman and strke up a conversation or ask you out. I guess that is what i am asking is were do we start? I am truly clueless and I have not found anyone that has an answer.

[27. Char said the following at 11:40 PM on Jul 30:]

27

I am almost 28 and I technically fall into the "never been dated" category. I've gone out on numerous dates with boys, but they were never defined. By the time we'd get to the DTR I'd be over the idea, or he'd be over the idea. I have a lot of male friends, and most of my friends and I have tried the whole go out to dinner together and he pays while I look cute in a skirt instead of our usual pizza in jeans kinda thing. It's either ended with us going back to being friends or (sadly) the friendship has fizzled.

My parents are divorced, but I don't blame that for my status. I took a good look at my mom's life and realized that I wanted to be sure I had my things squared away so I wasn't taken out at the knees like she was when my dad up and left. Perhaps that made me too intimidating, due to my fierce independence, though I'm not too sure how intimidating a school teacher can be to her peers.

Only in the last 6 months or so have I begun to really feel the desire of marriage on my heart. I know for a fact I could have been married earlier, but I would not have been happy.

I know this goes against what a lot of the topics on this site entail (marriage early, etc.) and I don't disagree, but there are exceptions to every rule. I would not have made a good wife right out of college. I was still forming the person I am now. The person who is ready to be a wife. And I don't mean sowing wild oats or the like either. I was becoming a better Christian and a better woman.

I guess I'd definitely fit the label of 'late bloomer', but I wear it with pride. I will make a good wife. I'm ready...

[28. Leah said the following at 12:33 AM on Jul 31:]

28

Susan Knight- you haven't been reading Boundless for long, have you?

You ask I don't understand the reasoning of young women to desire marriage especially in early 20's
Ok, well seeing as I got engaged at 19 and married at 20, I suppose I'm pretty well qualified to answer that: I found a godly Christian man I loved. That's why I wanted to get married. Sounds pretty sound to me.

You also say life is just beginning and everyone should learn to be on their own
Umm.. why? Why should everyone learn to be on their own?

..it will probably be the only time..but it is a good way to get to know yourself
Are you saying you can't get to know yourself while living with others, or while being married? Trust me, I'm sure you'll learn plenty about yourself when married that you didn't know when unmarried!

..plenty of time to marry and have a family
Well, not necessarily. Once a woman hits about 35 her fertility starts plummeting. Not to mention the older you get, the smaller the field gets, and the harder to find a suitable partner it is. "Plenty of time"? Yeah, there's time, but not forever.

..it's a bigger step than we know and should be forever decision..so take your time..this is the best time of your life!
You're saying once you get married the "best time" of your life is over? I have to admit I feel sorry for you. I've been married 2 months now and I'd say one of the best times of my life has just started. High school was another "best time" of my life, as was uni.

enjoy it and take advantage of school and all the things that the world has to offer young people..
I did take advantage of uni ("school"), I completed a 3 year undergrad degree and got married 5 months out of uni.

maturity does not come just because you are out of college..so chill
I know some 18 year olds who are more mature than some 21 year olds.

[29. Leah said the following at 12:38 AM on Jul 31:]

29

Laurie- congratulations! As I said in my last post, I got engaged at 19 (last November) and married at 20 (this past May). Fortunately I never felt like people looked down on me for getting married young. (Helps that several friends around my age were engaged too!)

I completed a degree before getting married, and I loved my time at uni, owing mainly to the wonderful Christian group i was a part of on campus. My time in my actual degree was mediocre, but the community of other Christian uni students around me made uni a wonderful experience.

Yes, perhaps these late teens/early-mid 20s are the best time of our lives- what a better way to spend it than to cram in as much as you can??

[30. AmandaB said the following at 8:38 PM on Jul 31:]

30

I was in the same situation as a lot of Christian girls--I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 23. We eventually broke up, and I really was hoping for a more serious relationship. Finally, my sister (who was asked out constantly from the time she was 14 until she got married) sat me down and told me my issue--I wasn't approachable. I was shy and came across as snooty. I think in today's world where men have the luxury of choosing a girl from work, church, online, etc., and does not feel any pressure to get married, women need to make sure they are as approachable as possible. A guy is probably going to be intimidated by a gorgeous woman, and if she isn't approachable, he'll be drawn to the girl who is. A guy doesn't want to fail when he approaches a woman, and with all his choices out there, he won't bother taking that risk. A lot of women dream of the guy who will scale mountains to meet her/win her heart, but let's be honest--in today's world where it's a piece of cake for a guy to meet a girl, he's not going to go through the trouble of even climbing a hill if he doesn't have to.

[1. BDB said the following at 11:49 PM on Jul 25:]

1

Best line from Lisa: "You need to make it through a quarrel with me and still be friends at the end."

YES - More people need to learn to do this!

I liked the,"It is written," part, too.

On the delaying marriage thing; there is another facet that I don't think we've discussed much. I know a 20-year-old woman who was recently telling a group of us that she didn't want to think about marriage until she was "super-independent." This was really because her parents had recently divorced.

I've been thinking about that, and I've come to realize that I know other women who seem to be focusing on their careers, but now that I think about it, either their parents or someone close to them has gotten divorced. So they don't say it out loud, but they simply don't believe they can trust anyone, so they want to be established in their career, own a house, etc., first so they are confident in their ability to make it on their own - so they don't fall apart like they see others fall apart.

Just today I learned that a woman I know like this is engaged. She's had a successful career and bought her own house eight years ago. She will be getting married for the first time just before her 36th birthday.

[2. khalil said the following at 9:22 AM on Jul 26:]

2

I am going to respond to the last paragraph of BDB's #1 comment here, are you stating that as a good thing or a bad thing...or an example to prove your point (I am not meaning this as negative in any way and I am happy for your friend)?

In general the tone of Boundless seems to be that it is a bad thing to marry later (must marry early and younger) and that you have to start bearing children (one of my friends recently took exception when I used the term breeding in reaction to hearing about a mutual friend having 4 children), all in the name of being a good Christian family. What is wrong with waiting, what is wrong with securing some form of wealth, success, or maturity before you get married? Some of the "problems" or fears that people use to avoid marriage can effectively be addressed in a relationship, but I don't know if I would immediately jump to calling them a cop-out or unfounded. We all know marriage does take a risk and shouldn't be taken lightly. It is just tiresome to continually see people look down on those that have chosen to delay marriage.

[3. BDB said the following at 12:31 PM on Jul 26:]

3

Responding to Khalil (#2)

I was mostly thinking aloud; it was late.

The Boundless discussion, particularly Candace's focus, often focuses on the rewards of career vs. parenting for women, and argues against delaying marriage to seek career rewards. The consequences in terms of fertility, etc., are well documented in other discussions.

I wonder if that's not the root cause.

For children of divorce, or those who've been around a bad divorce, they've seen how much people can struggle in that situation. So - while still in high school - they make the decision that the first order of business is to develop the skills to make it on their own.

It's not an irrational fear. Statistically, divorce is far more likely than having your house burned down or causing a serious car accident. But it is wise to have insurance for both.

I think it would be worth exploring the possibility that many Westerners are delaying marriage while they build up an insurance policy of skills that will make them independent. In a Western economy, you can outsource lots of life's drudgery if you have enough money - cooking, cleaning, laundry, yard work, etc. The ability to generate sufficient income thus becomes the insurance policy against being that single mother whose husband left her with a couple of toddlers.

If someone has decided to follow the "insurance policy" route, it may look from the outside like they are focusing on their career.

[4. J. said the following at 1:13 PM on Jul 26:]

4

I really enjoyed Lisa's interview with Kevin DeYoung. I bought his book a couple of weeks ago and am really looking forward to reading it.

He mentioned that the emergent church really seems to be taking off in locations where evangelicalism has traditionally been strong, e.g., Grand Rapids, MI. So how would he explain the popularity of Mars Hill in Seattle? I would say that the emergent philosophy also resonates with people who are politically and socially liberal (as Seattleites generally are), but I would have loved to hear Mr. DeYoung's take on this, too.

On to the Inbox segment, which focused on a woman in her late twenties who had never dated. I agree that her asking a mentor for an honest assessment of her weaknesses could be beneficial. However, this kind of thing is helpful for all believers -- single *and* married. I would have reminded her of the fact that married people are imperfect, too -- often in ways that sometimes put a significant strain on their marriages. We really need to do away with the implication that people who are single are such simply because there is something wrong with them. There is something wrong with everyone!

I'd be curious to know what the woman's social circle looks like and how it may contribute to her being single. Do the women in her church around her age significantly outnumber the men? Is dating encouraged or discouraged? Does she offer too much to men in terms of friendship?

[5. D.Williams said the following at 4:05 PM on Jul 26:]

5

In response to #2, I also agree delaying marriage is not always a bad thing. Boundless makes suggestions that as young Christians, it is our duty, or at least an advantage to marry and to start having children sooner than later. While in some cases this may be true, it is not true for everyone. I know many young people (around the ages of 20-24), who were married, some have children, and they were not mentally or financially ready to partake in a succesful marriage. Needless to say most of those marriages did not last. They are now 22, 23 year olds who are divorced and some are single parents. Oftentimes they neglected college to focus on their marriage, and once you have a child, it is extremely difficult to go back and finish your education, so they struggle to make ends meet. I do not think anyone should be pressured (or allow themselves to be pressured), into making a life changing decision when they are not ready.

The main thing that concerns me when readers ask questions about should I marry, should I wait, is this this the one, etc., the response almost always neglects the most important factor to all of your life's questions, and I know it is a cliche, but pray! God created each and every one of us, He knows who you are, where you are going, and what you have been through. He knows what you can handle right now and what you will be able to handle, say, 10 years from now. It may be for you to marry your boyfriend at 23, and it may be for you to remain single until you're 30. I appreciate the efforts of Boundless at what it represents, but people, please remember, God knows you better than anyone, better than you know yourself, so cast your cares on him.

[6. D.Williams said the following at 4:16 PM on Jul 26:]

6

I forgot to mention that I also know a lot of couples who married young and are doing just fine. Still, seek God first in all that you do.

[7. Mike said the following at 7:13 PM on Jul 26:]

7

BDB:

I think there's a significant danger in overemphasizing the notion of being independent and self-sufficient as an "insurance policy" in case of divorce. It can create, I think, a subconscious attitude of having only one foot in the marriage. Emotionally, the individual isn't fully committed to the marriage because there's that notion in the back of your mind that "I can always leave if it doesn't work". It's very similar to a cohabiting couple, who know they haven't really committed to each other.

We know for a fact that second marriages fail at an even higher rate than first marriages. One reason is because the parties have been through it before and, therefore, the instability and mistrust have already been sown. I think that this may be part of the reason why children of divorced households also show a high rate of divorce themselves: That trauma is hard to overcome, and results in an inability to commit completely.

Now, there's nothing wrong with making preparations in case of the death of a spouse. But having it in your mind that "my spouse is unreliable" or "I've made preparations to leave" will show itself. It'll come out during a fight, or in subtle signals. It'll come out in signs of mistrust - and that will poison your marriage. It won't survive unless both parties are "all in".

[8. Rachael said the following at 3:30 PM on Jul 27:]

8

D. Williams (5) - good advice in your second paragraph! Strange how something that seems so easy (prayer) can so frequently get neglected! Thanks also for your last sentence remdinder about casting your cares on the One who knows us better than we know ourselves.

So weird how some of us can get so caught up into doing/contemplating X, Y, and Z about relationship issues while neglecting to consistently lift up our concerns and insecurity before our God who holds everything ultimately in His control. Yeah, sometimes it may be wise to do/consider X, Y, and Z, but always we (myself included) should consistently bring our cares back to Christ and not subconsciously think that X, Y, and Z are the tickets to fix it (it=the concern or problem).

Anyway thanks for the reminder to pray and cast our cares upon God...

[9. BDB said the following at 6:58 PM on Jul 27:]

9

Mike #7 wrote:

>>I think there's a significant danger in overemphasizing the notion of being independent and self-sufficient as an "insurance policy" in case of divorce.<<

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good thing. What I'm saying is that this is a consequence of the culture of divorce in the U.S. A lot of people simply don't trust anyone that much.

But don't take my word for it - go through a mental inventory of people you know who seem to be delaying marriage in favor of their careers. How many of them experienced a nasty divorce, either of their parents or of a close relative?

[10. Leah said the following at 7:47 PM on Jul 27:]

10

Khalil and D. Williams - if you've had a rounded look at Boundless's opinion on marriage, you will find that they look down not on people who delay marriage, but people who delay marriage for the wrong reasons. If, for one reason or another, you can't support a wife or children, then I'm sure most Boundless bloggers would agree you shouldn't marry yet. Or if there's been a serious shortage of marry-able people around you! But if you purposely put off getting married for no good reason, that's where the problem lies. Boundless does not condemn older brides and grooms point-blank.

[11. busby SEO Challenge said the following at 4:33 AM on Jul 28:]

11

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[12. mary kate said the following at 9:30 AM on Jul 28:]

12

there's not always a reason why someone is still single when they don't want to be. guess what... sometimes it's outside of our control! sometimes, we've done all the right things, read all the books, tried dating, not dating, internet dating, prayer, mentors, groups of friends, prayer with groups of friends, small groups, therapy etc. :)

i just say that so you don't fall into the trap of continually feeling like you have to work on yourself. sometimes god is just doing stuff that we can't see. hang in there, pray, and of course seek out a mentor. i also recommend 'how to get a date worth keeping' by henry cloud. even if you don't agree with all of his methods, it gives great insight on how to be more open to people of the opposite sex, and healthy dating behaviour.

[13. Ben said the following at 1:47 PM on Jul 28:]

13

J. (#4):

Just as a clarifier, the Mars Hill church in Seattle is a far cry from Bell's church or anything else in the emergent movement, despite the confusion caused by the shared name. Mark Driscoll, pastor of the Seattle Mars Hill, is the author of Vintage Jesus and is way more theologically conservative than any of the emergent pastors/authors DeYoung writes about in Not Emergent.

That said, I agree with your larger point about emergent appeal to political and social liberals, and I think you'll like the analysis of the emergent church in Not Emergent if you read it (I'm in the middle of reading it also).

[14. Candace said the following at 2:04 PM on Jul 28:]

14

In response to Never Been Dated - wow. Can I just say I relate? Up until recently, I hadn’t ever been asked out, and I still have yet to be asked out by a Christian. I’m almost 27, put myself out there, and pretty (I’m a model) without being stuck up and I’ve even got a bit of nerdiness in me too. ;p In my case I sometimes wonder if it’s just that I’m such a go-getter that guys are intimidated…but I mean, should I become lazy, apathetic, and wilty for the sake of winning a guy? I don’t believe so. But I do think that strong men are rare and almost non-existent and it’s somehow hard for Christian men to ask any women out. Also, you have to realize that maybe it’s just not God’s time yet, as crazy as that might seem at our age!! Anyhow, be encouraged, you’re not the only one!

[15. Craig M. said the following at 4:10 PM on Jul 28:]

15

Hmm....Candace, I suspect that if you'll simply provide a link to your webpage, or facebook, or whatever the cool kids are using these days...that you might have some takers. :)

[16. Susan Knight said the following at 6:23 PM on Jul 28:]

16

I don't understand the reasoning of young women to desire marriage especially in early 20's..life is just beginning and everyone should learn to be on their own ..it will probably be the only time..but it is a good way to get to know yourself..plenty of time
to marry and have a family..it's a bigger step than we know and should be forever decision..so take your time..this is the best time of your life!
enjoy it and take advantage of school and all the things that the world has to offer young people..
maturity does not come just because you are out of college..so chill
and remember that those who are equally "yoked" will be blessed...
but doesn't mean it's easy
pray every day for guidance...

[17. Mike said the following at 7:59 PM on Jul 28:]

17

Craig -

You're reading my mind. I mean really, Candace - never been asked?!? That blows my mind!

[18. BDB said the following at 10:33 PM on Jul 28:]

18

Candace (#14) wrote:

>>I’m almost 27, put myself out there, and pretty (I’m a model) without being stuck up and I’ve even got a bit of nerdiness in me too.<<

Actually, that reminds me of a story...

There was a model-looking transfer student at my university who generated a reaction like that. Specifically, it generated a bet: a bunch of guys betting who could get her to say 10 words to them first.

(Um - I'm not saying who won the bet, but I will say it didn't take long.)

Anyway, she had made one comment. For some reason, someone asked her about the dating situation on campus. Her response was reportedly, "Why have hamburger here when you can get steak at home?" I think it was actually in the school paper for some reason. (It was a small school.)

This generated a demonstration by one of the fraternities. At lunch one day, a dozen of them each delivered a plate with a hamburger to the table where she was eating lunch. (It was a really small school.)

But I think she was just a little shy. I ended up working with her on homecoming or something, I can't remember exactly what. She seemed pretty normal in that setting.

[19. Elizabeth said the following at 3:59 AM on Jul 29:]

19

Susan, I know why young women desire to marry in thier early 20s (I married at age 22), God has laid marriage in their heart. God created some women to be married and fufull godly roles within that marriage. What is the benifit of learning to live on your own when you will have to learn to live with someone else?
You are right when you say marriage is a forever decision and you should take your time to make sure you are ready. But once you are ready, and God shows you who are to marry, don't delay! Things only get better.
Marriage is hard but as a married women of 3 whole years and a mother of a 10 month old, these are the best days of my life.

[20. Kelly said the following at 4:19 AM on Jul 29:]

20

"Never been asked" is actually really, really common in Christian circles. I wasn't officially asked on a date until about age 26.

[21. H.A.P said the following at 4:33 AM on Jul 29:]

21

In response to the Inbox question:

I have a friend who I always thought was the picture of feminine perfection. She was tall, slim, blond, blue, and busty. She was 23 before she was ever asked out on a date by anyone!! At times this put a strain on our friendship because I was asked out alot in my early twenties. I'm a little short, a little on the heavy side, and a brunette...certainly nothing special. I never made an effort to go to a singles group or "put myself out there."

At the time, I thought that her looks were intimidating to the average guy and she has a very forceful personality that isn't appealing to alot of men. But who can really say why some girls get asked out and others don't??

The good news is she did get married at 25! Two weeks after myself! It took the poor guy ages to get up the courage...he is quite shy. But he won his prize, and they are a very good match, very happily married, and expecting a baby boy in about a month.

[22. mary kate said the following at 8:28 AM on Jul 29:]

22

i can identify with candace.... though in my case, i've been asked out a few times. i know i'm pretty and fun and awesome and all of that, but i also know that god is bigger than me and my immediate situations. plus, i know i'm picky ;). and i'm ok with that.

[23. J. said the following at 10:00 AM on Jul 29:]

23

Ben (#13), I did some research on the Seattle Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll's current beliefs (i.e., he has distanced himself from the Emergent Church movement over the years upon becoming troubled by its theology), and it appears you are correct. Thank you for bringing this to my attention as I certainly don't want to spread any misinformation.

[24. Laurie said the following at 10:22 AM on Jul 29:]

24

Susan (#16), I will be 20 when I get married next year. I am looking forward to it with all my heart. I graduated from high school early and have been in college 2 years so far. I do good in school and have made lots of friends and learned a lot about myself, but I desire a family more than a career or getting out on my own. Honestly, I despise college. I was encouraged by your post, Elizabeth, saying that you are having the best days of your life as a young married woman. I know people look down on me because I am getting married young, but I have no regrets. I know if I walked away from this to enjoy the "best days of my life" on my own, climbing the ladder in a career, I would look back with nothing but regret that I walked away from the opportunity to start a family with my best friend (which he is!). I know that things don't always work out like this for everyone, but God has led me to this opportunity and I am very humbled and thankful.
About girls never being asked out, that one is so hard to figure out! I have gorgeous Christian girlfriends who have never been asked out (who are years older than me), but I have been asked out several times. I don't consider myself nearly as pretty as my friends who have not been asked out. I do think it has a lot to do with the way you carry yourself, and how sincere you are, then just how you look.

[25. Lindsey said the following at 10:40 AM on Jul 30:]

25

I am "never been dated", and I just wanted to say thanks to those of you with encouraging words! It is nice to know there are other ladies out there experiencing the same things as me. At least I don't feel like a total weirdo or that there is something horribly wrong with me now!! :)

[26. Warren said the following at 9:44 PM on Jul 30:]

26

You know I am shocked to hear or read about all of you women that don't get asked out and feel the way you do. I just got out of church we just watched HOPE by Louie Giglio it was an eye opener about lifes hurts and Gods great LOVE for us even when we don't understand what His plan is for us. Then i see ya'll speaking about the weakness that some of us have. I am 29 and one of those guys that don't know how to just walk up to a beautiful woman and strke up a conversation or ask you out. I guess that is what i am asking is were do we start? I am truly clueless and I have not found anyone that has an answer.

[27. Char said the following at 11:40 PM on Jul 30:]

27

I am almost 28 and I technically fall into the "never been dated" category. I've gone out on numerous dates with boys, but they were never defined. By the time we'd get to the DTR I'd be over the idea, or he'd be over the idea. I have a lot of male friends, and most of my friends and I have tried the whole go out to dinner together and he pays while I look cute in a skirt instead of our usual pizza in jeans kinda thing. It's either ended with us going back to being friends or (sadly) the friendship has fizzled.

My parents are divorced, but I don't blame that for my status. I took a good look at my mom's life and realized that I wanted to be sure I had my things squared away so I wasn't taken out at the knees like she was when my dad up and left. Perhaps that made me too intimidating, due to my fierce independence, though I'm not too sure how intimidating a school teacher can be to her peers.

Only in the last 6 months or so have I begun to really feel the desire of marriage on my heart. I know for a fact I could have been married earlier, but I would not have been happy.

I know this goes against what a lot of the topics on this site entail (marriage early, etc.) and I don't disagree, but there are exceptions to every rule. I would not have made a good wife right out of college. I was still forming the person I am now. The person who is ready to be a wife. And I don't mean sowing wild oats or the like either. I was becoming a better Christian and a better woman.

I guess I'd definitely fit the label of 'late bloomer', but I wear it with pride. I will make a good wife. I'm ready...

[28. Leah said the following at 12:33 AM on Jul 31:]

28

Susan Knight- you haven't been reading Boundless for long, have you?

You ask I don't understand the reasoning of young women to desire marriage especially in early 20's
Ok, well seeing as I got engaged at 19 and married at 20, I suppose I'm pretty well qualified to answer that: I found a godly Christian man I loved. That's why I wanted to get married. Sounds pretty sound to me.

You also say life is just beginning and everyone should learn to be on their own
Umm.. why? Why should everyone learn to be on their own?

..it will probably be the only time..but it is a good way to get to know yourself
Are you saying you can't get to know yourself while living with others, or while being married? Trust me, I'm sure you'll learn plenty about yourself when married that you didn't know when unmarried!

..plenty of time to marry and have a family
Well, not necessarily. Once a woman hits about 35 her fertility starts plummeting. Not to mention the older you get, the smaller the field gets, and the harder to find a suitable partner it is. "Plenty of time"? Yeah, there's time, but not forever.

..it's a bigger step than we know and should be forever decision..so take your time..this is the best time of your life!
You're saying once you get married the "best time" of your life is over? I have to admit I feel sorry for you. I've been married 2 months now and I'd say one of the best times of my life has just started. High school was another "best time" of my life, as was uni.

enjoy it and take advantage of school and all the things that the world has to offer young people..
I did take advantage of uni ("school"), I completed a 3 year undergrad degree and got married 5 months out of uni.

maturity does not come just because you are out of college..so chill
I know some 18 year olds who are more mature than some 21 year olds.

[29. Leah said the following at 12:38 AM on Jul 31:]

29

Laurie- congratulations! As I said in my last post, I got engaged at 19 (last November) and married at 20 (this past May). Fortunately I never felt like people looked down on me for getting married young. (Helps that several friends around my age were engaged too!)

I completed a degree before getting married, and I loved my time at uni, owing mainly to the wonderful Christian group i was a part of on campus. My time in my actual degree was mediocre, but the community of other Christian uni students around me made uni a wonderful experience.

Yes, perhaps these late teens/early-mid 20s are the best time of our lives- what a better way to spend it than to cram in as much as you can??

[30. AmandaB said the following at 8:38 PM on Jul 31:]

30

I was in the same situation as a lot of Christian girls--I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 23. We eventually broke up, and I really was hoping for a more serious relationship. Finally, my sister (who was asked out constantly from the time she was 14 until she got married) sat me down and told me my issue--I wasn't approachable. I was shy and came across as snooty. I think in today's world where men have the luxury of choosing a girl from work, church, online, etc., and does not feel any pressure to get married, women need to make sure they are as approachable as possible. A guy is probably going to be intimidated by a gorgeous woman, and if she isn't approachable, he'll be drawn to the girl who is. A guy doesn't want to fail when he approaches a woman, and with all his choices out there, he won't bother taking that risk. A lot of women dream of the guy who will scale mountains to meet her/win her heart, but let's be honest--in today's world where it's a piece of cake for a guy to meet a girl, he's not going to go through the trouble of even climbing a hill if he doesn't have to.