Are Parents Adding Ice Packs to Cold Feet?
by Steve Watters on 06/10/2008 at 10:30 AM
Getting married is one of the most important transitions in a man's or woman's life. It's not surprising that some people get cold feet in their approach, but some well-intentioned parents are trying to "help" by adding ice packs.
Writing in Touchstone magazine this month, Joan Frawley Desmond raises this concern. She opens with the story of a mom counseling her son who was a senior at a top university: "He wanted to marry his long-time girlfriend. His mother retorted that she was more ambitious for him than his girlfriend was; she advised him to avoid an 'early' marriage that might limit his options."
Desmond also mentions a dad directing his daughter: "[H]e had counseled his high-school age daughter to establish a decade's worth of graduate school and career development before marrying. Marriage would complicate the task of achieving financial independence. And he just wasn't sure that men could be trusted."
These parents, to be sure, mean well, but Desmond believes they are being too cautious:
Their children are deemed incapable of bearing the weight of marriage. Everything must be in place before they can contemplate such a momentous -- potentially "destabilizing" -- step.
Parents today rightfully observe that their children aren't quite ready for marriage. But instead of encouraging them to hold out until they are completely ready, Desmond believes parents should prepare their children for what it takes to commit to the vows of permanence, faithfulness and fruitfulness:
Though most young people enter marriage without fully understanding what is ahead, the vows guide them in developing necessary virtues: perseverance, temperance, courage, justice, and humility. The challenges keep coming -- sickness, financial difficulties, family crises -- and the vows help to lift the spouses over each hurdle.
This focus on committing to the vows of marriage instead of holding out for a magical moment of future maturity seems more helpful than the advice Desmond says parents appear to be giving instead:
Delay the wedding date, ignore the broken hearts, along the way, center your hopes and goals in yourself or your job rather than the man and woman in your bed, always leave yourself an out, get on with your career. In other words, keep love at arm's length, and pay the price.
1. Laura said the following at 10:46 AM on Jun 10:
I think this kind of thing is just one more manifestation of the helicopter parents who, having done the hard work of raising their children, find it difficult or impossible to let go and trust that their children can make wise decisions on their own as adults.
2. P&P said the following at 10:47 AM on Jun 10:
As much as B'less and other Christian organizations promote early marriage, I've seen too many (both xtian and secular) fail if they marry too young. I also think that many of these parents are looking at their own lives and seeing how patterns repeat themselves.
Any parent who counsels their child to wait until they're finished with school and have a bit of money in the bank (perhaps a few wild oats sowed?) is offering sound advice.
3. Courtney said the following at 10:49 AM on Jun 10:
Amen, Amen, Amen!
I have never understood why parents would counsel their kids to wait to get married until after they have finished college and graduate school. The concept just doesn't make sense to me. I believe it is good for a couple to learn and grow together...including financially during college. I have watched my sister and her husband - who got married right out of high school - and it seems it was better for them financially to be married. They were able to receive grants that *paid* them to go to college instead of be $20,000 in debt due to student loans.
4. Kate said the following at 10:51 AM on Jun 10:
I like this post and it resonates with my present life situation. As 22 going on 23 planning to get married very soon to somebody who is 24 going on 25... I'm sort of surprised (and often annoyed) by how many people think we are too young. Mind you, each of us have our bachelor's degrees, are financially independent from our parents and are in graduate school with clear career paths, financial and family plans in mind and in motion. We have known each other for 8 or so years, the last two of which have been an intentional committed relationship, and are both strong Christians.
It's not exactly our parents who try to give us cold feet (though they would not mind seeing us wait three more years until he's done with school), but many many people around us, mostly in our peers in terms of age. I don't know what else they'd expect or want to see, but in some ways I think their comments are more based on their own sense of not being ready, or not knowing what makes somebody want to marry.
5. Khalil said the following at 11:07 AM on Jun 10:
I don't see how delaying marriage for financial stability and personal maturity is a bad thing. I am of the opinion that unless you are actively seeking marriage or preparing for it then you shouldn't be dating or opening your heart (or other's) to scarring. Use that time to draw closer to God and prepare yourself for the future. Sometimes cold feet serve a purpose.
6. Cindy said the following at 11:11 AM on Jun 10:
wow, I totally relate to the "always leave yourself an out, and keep love at arm's length." Everytime I get too close to someone (by this I mean innocently being interested in someone beyond just friendship), I always seem to back off or mess it up somehow...
7. DannieA said the following at 11:12 AM on Jun 10:
I think a compromise would be:
1. Parents should prepare for a direction in their kids lives they didn't plan for.
2. For girls, parents should teach them financial responsibility so if and when she marries whether 20 or 35 she can take care of the finances (unfortunately many men have ruined women's finances to the point that this is a concern for parents)
3. Give advice, let go, and pray.
8. Tisha said the following at 11:25 AM on Jun 10:
I totally agree with this post. My ex-fiance just cancelled our wedding (10 days before- might I add) due to the overwhelming pressures of his family. They were a huge influence in his cold feet, not feeling adequate, committment issued, not enough money to support a family mind. He chose to please them rather than please God and it really makes me sad. I am so thankful all of this came about before the big day. God is so faithful! Marriage is about doing whatever it takes to make it through together, no matter the hurdle, and no matter what other people think and say. The old saying goes, "You can't please all the people all the time."
9. Rachael said the following at 11:27 AM on Jun 10:
If Godly parents are hesitant about a particular match, there might very well be larger unspoken reasons mixed into their feelings, even if their hesitations are voiced under the guise of poor timing or minor immaturity issues. Maybe not, but possibly...
On another note, I felt uplifted in receiving very simple encouragement from my mom just the other day. It was refreshing to hear her simple view. She seemed to have the mindset that if the guy is a Christian and is kind and if I could see myself living with him, then that's enough, or something...
It was just encouraging. Granted, she was talking about people (myself being one of them) who are older (though I know that I still have immature aspects), but it was just wonderful simple advice to get.
Candace has also given simple advice about some simple non-negotiables.
It's pretty refreshing to think that the mate selection process can maybe be more simple than what single idealists make it out to be....you know nowhere in the Bible does it give a long list of qualities that a potential mate must have...
It's all very interesting...
10. Justice said the following at 12:04 PM on Jun 10:
Wow,
this was really encouraging! I'm getting married in January and here's the situation: Just finished school, moving to another city to look for a decent job while my fiance stays here until we get married. Once we get married, she'll have 3 months of commuting to college and then she's done. Money... non-existent right now, which I'm not used to, I haven't been this broke since I was 10.
But last night, I told her I felt like we weren't ready, that we both seem like just kids, and she assured me that we are, that we'll never be 'ready,' which I agree. This time is still stressful, but I have an awesome fiance, which is probably the reason she is my fiance!
11. a sassy sister said the following at 12:13 PM on Jun 10:
I have some follow-up questions:
1.) In this particular circumstance, are you advocating that parents develop spiritual, social, financial, and emotional maturity in their children for the sole purpose of getting married and having children before the age of 25? If so, do you believe that it is equally important for parents to display such maturity themselves in their marriages to be an example to their children?
2.) What do you believe the root of the parental cautions for their children regarding marriage and family to be? Do you believe it is fear of repeating their mistakes? Do you believe it may stem from issues of control and avoiding the "empty nest?"
3.)What is your definition of maturity? Can other factors besides marriage and family mature a person?
4.) Is the issue that parents are not raising their children to handle the weight of challenges and adversity in life as a whole, or is it just that parents are not raising their children to handle the demands of the marriage covenant?
5.)For parents, which is a greater priority: developing maturity and the capacity to grow in God and deal with life's challenges overall, or developing the life skills necessary to sustain healthy marriages and families?
12. DannieA said the following at 12:34 PM on Jun 10:
One more thing....I also think this depends. I think some people council wisely.
My cousin is getting married in August and she is in her 1st year of grad school (23)...but with her state of mind she either needs to break up or seriously get married. As I was excited for her and all, I just had a conversation with her in which she told me that although not ideal her and her soon to be hubby are going to keep seperate apts. and live 2 hours away from each other even after they got married.....what the????????????? She says she doesn't want to live in a small town, and that it wouldn't be right to leave her school....and he just got a job so it probably won't look good for him to quit and move to the city......again what the???????? the purpose of getting married is to become one if i'm not mistaken and this really turned me off. The cutest thing I think exists is for a couple no matter what age 18, 25, 30 to learn to live together, buy stuff with their gift cards for their new place etc. And people have to make sacrifices...in this case some decisions and sacrifices should be made but again, I'm only the cousin. I told her that this is not an ideal situation and theat they should rethink this decision...I mean, now I don't want to give them a house present because where is it going to go? his place or hers?
So in an individual basis, sometimes wise council of delaying marriage or a kick in the butt should be in order.
13. cn said the following at 12:49 PM on Jun 10:
Good post, Steve. I've been bothered by this for a long time.
There's a difference between offering sound advice to be mature enough for marriage, and telling kids it takes decades of school and complete final independence to reach that state of maturity.
You know what else equally bothers me? Christian organizations that don't allow their aged 18+ volunteers pursue relationship while serving with them. I understand that it can be distracting and shouldn't be our *focus* in certain seasons, but if the leaders were acting as mentors and helping to facilitate proper dating strategies that could lead toward marriage, then its likely that everything would run smoothly. If you can't expect to investigate marriage with someone in a Christian organization,under strong corporate leadership, where can you?
14. a sassy sister said the following at 12:59 PM on Jun 10:
Kate:
These comments are probably coming from people who don't you either of you well enough to make a statement that you're both too young. The truth is that if this what you believe God is leading you to do and you've gone to God and godly counsel, they need to respect your decision and turn their concerns into prayers for your relationship, minding their own business and getting busy with what God has instructed to do individually in their own lives. It is amazing how much time flies and less stress you have when you stop trying to take on things that aren't your responsibility.
15. Jeni said the following at 1:02 PM on Jun 10:
I wouldn't say my parents added ice to my cold feet - more like they set my hot feet in an ice pool! My parents, especially my dad, were very insistent that I didn't go to a Christian college or University. They wanted me to get a real degree rather and an MRS degree. So, here I am quite a few years post college graduation; I have my real degree and no MRS degree. Though my parents insisting I go to a secular univeristy is not the reason for my extended singleness, I do wonder if I would have got and MRS as well as a BA had I gone to the school I wanted to attend.
16. Barbara said the following at 1:20 PM on Jun 10:
As a long-time divorced mother of two teenagers, and one who has been well-acquainted with the realities of the world out there (ER Nurse) I find myself in the same position as the parents you mention and I'm not sure what the answer is. On the one hand, I want to encourage them and keep everything I have learned about the world out of it. But on the other, there are words of caution that must be expressed out of love and out of experience. Neither my children nor I have ever seen a good marriage in our years on this earth- in family, in church, or in life. They do appear to be very rare and precious things, indeed. So it's certainly natural to encourage our children to wait. Wait until you're each on your own two feet. Wait until you are financially capable of making it on your own lest the guy(or gal) turn on you as soon as the ring is on your finger and you need to get out for your own safety (sounds cynical, I know, but it happens all too often). Wait, wait, wait. Marry in haste, repent at leisure. Be responsible. Children tend to come along when least expected and they must be provided for, as must a household provide for itself if at all possible so as not to be a burden to others. Look at the person and ask yourself, is this someone I want to have to pay child support to for the next 18 years? How does he/she react when things don't go well? Is a restraining order in my future? Has either of us confused "love" with "obsession"? Have we convinced ourselves it's "God's will" when deep down it's really "my will"? Divorce rates are as high in the church as they are in the outside world so let's not fool ourselves here. True love waits, so what's the rush? If there is any sense of rush or urgency at all, then beware. Be warned. Be. Careful.
To be sure, marriage is not something to be taken lightly. Wait. Wait until after that biochemical "high" of "new love" has been worn off for awhile. Wait until the pheremones are gone. Wait until you're standing there looking at God, the other person at his/her absolute worst, and at the rest of your life. Then make up your mind. Then you'll have a better notion regarding whether the love is "True" or just an "illusion". And that will make all the difference in the world.
17. Anastasia said the following at 1:35 PM on Jun 10:
Phew, this makes my head spin somewhat.
My oldest, my son is 28 years old. He's had two serious relationships, both of which had serious problems. It was like walking a tightrope trying to counsel him without alienating him. One girl was all about the wedding and hadn't a clue about marriage and tried alienating him from his family. The other was a more mature woman and very family oriented and likeable, but was not a Christian and refused to consider it.
Thank God! that he realized these relationships were not for him and would generate more sorrow than not. Hopefully three time's the charm - he's corresponding with a girl we've all (me, Dad, sisters) hoped he would get together with from years ago.
My oldest daughter will be getting engaged as soon as the ring comes home from the jeweler's (custom made). She never had a serious relationship before, being studious and also very observant about the males in her life. She has been very close to her Dad and the comparison of him to the other males in her life was not favorable.
As she lamented one day, I lost it a little and told her that she passed up perfectly good candidates in the form of her brother's friends who are five years older, more mature, Christians and ready to settle down to marriage and family. I guess she took it to heart, because the man she plans to marry is one of my son's best friends who we approve of.
Does that mean they both have a complete clue about marriage? No, but they will figure it out as they are encouraged to take their wedding vows seriously and keep their love alive.
My youngest is 18 and so far seems to be following in her sister's footsteps in terms of realizing what a good man looks like and what she should choose for a future mate.
All to say is, it isn't the age, it's the maturity of the parties and their understanding that marriage and parenting will be their lives' greatest work in addition to whatever God calls them to. Eighteen? 25? 30? It doesn't really matter. I was married at 22, had my son at 24 and have been married for 30 years. Maybe the fact that my husband and I never had it easy gives our kids hope that marriage can survive the worst with love intact.
18. Sarah22 said the following at 1:42 PM on Jun 10:
Tisha:
I don't know your whole situation but it really sounds like your heart is in the right place and you have not become bitter and for that I say amen! May you continue to allow God's grace to comfort you and trust in His will for your life :)
19. EmilyC said the following at 1:50 PM on Jun 10:
Re: Jeni (15)
I can't help but respond to your post. I went to a Christian college, graduated with a BA and not my MRS. I didn't even have the potential to receive the second "degree" at the time I was graduating. Do I wish things had been/were different? Of course, but I don't think the college we choose to attend or not attend makes much difference regarding our single/married status. As is often said on this site (in various ways), God can work with/through our circumstances, whatever they may be.
20. niki said the following at 2:12 PM on Jun 10:
This is dead-on with my experience, and that of most of my friends from High School (I went to a Christian college, so my college friends did tend to come from a different parental experience).
21. Nicole Y said the following at 2:19 PM on Jun 10:
Jeni (15) I went to a Christian college and did not get my MRS degree until 7 years after graduation. Most of my college friends did not get their MRS degrees either, until a few out of college, so no gaurantees no matter what kind of college you attend.
I am not an advocate of helicopter parenting. However, I wouldn't totally toss some of these parental concerns out the window either. Sometimes parents know their children best, and they may see some red flags, or at least some things that need to be addressed before rushing to the alter at a younger age. Sometimes, there is wisdom in waiting. The examples in this post are bit extreme (10 years of school and career first before marrying, good grief!).
I would be more concerned over the individual who LETS his/her parents make their decision for them or who is totally influenced by what mom and dad says instead of being able to stand on their own two feet. That person is not ready to get married to begin with. No one can "give" you cold feet, that is something you do to yourself.
22. a sassy sister said the following at 2:58 PM on Jun 10:
Nicole Y and Anastasia:
thank you for adding some clarity and balance to this post. Thanks for making it point about maturity and not age. It is about choices and taking responsibility for your thoughts, feelings, and actions. It is easy to blame parents for this, but it is much tougher to walk through the process of parenting with them, offering encouragement and solutions.
23. BDB said the following at 3:00 PM on Jun 10:
Hmmm...If I remember correctly, the only direction I got from my family when leaving for college was, "Date a lot of people." Seriously, that one sentence was it. Not very helpful for a Christian trying to navigate a non-Christian social scene.
In college I met Christians who had a more specific philosophy: don't get married until after finishing graduate school. This, at least, sounded like a plan.
Well, those six friends turned into three couples that married each other - after finishing graduate school, but to people they met as undergraduates. Oh. It is definitely a lot easier to meet people in college, if nothing else because they are less likely to have been through an experience that makes them withdraw from social contact with people.
cn (#13) wrote:
>>Christian organizations that don't allow their aged 18+ volunteers pursue relationship while serving with them. <<
As a manager, I understand the appeal of this policy. I think it is a good one for short-term missions; otherwise you'd end up with people who go with the intent to turn it into a two-week dating vacation. This can destroy team cohesion. But for longer-term settings, leadership needs to come up with a better plan.
Though I admit I've also run into a situation where someone who signed the short-term missions form and then applied the theory to everyone they meet in church in a volunteer setting...with their family reinforcing this view...(SIGH)
24. Karen said the following at 3:06 PM on Jun 10:
I am about like Jeni, except maybe a decade further down the road. I married for the first time at 35, though I would have been happy to be married at 15! I think by 35 even my parents were starting to wonder if maybe the way they'd encouraged me to go had made me permanently single rather than just mature at the time of marriage. Anyway, now at 40, I have with difficulty had 2 children, would like more, and am the only one of my friends who's married this late who's been able to have children at all so far. Somehow it seems everybody forgot to mention to my generation that it's a whole lot harder to have children at 40 than 20, and I am seeing a lot of my parents' generation wondering what happened to the grandchildren they thought they'd have by now. PLEASE PLEASE don't make the mistake my generation did and listen to those who say you can have your career now and family later! There IS a biological clock!
25. BDB said the following at 3:14 PM on Jun 10:
DannieA (#7) wrote:
>>(unfortunately many men have ruined women's finances to the point that this is a concern for parents)<<
(COUGH) That cuts both ways. I know a guy I grew up with who married young, his wife destroyed his credit, then divorced him, forcing him to move back in with his parents. Real-life stories like that tend to make one more cautious.
Speaking of cautious, Cindy (#6) wrote:
>> I always seem to back off or mess it up somehow...<<
OK, I've seen this comment from a lot of women who otherwise seem to be God-fearing, Bible-believing and marriage oriented.
My question: if a men senses that a woman is experiencing this generalized fear (as opposed to assuming that she's not interested in him), what would be the best way to overcome it? What would convince you to stop running?
26. cn said the following at 3:56 PM on Jun 10:
Barbara (16)
I'd encourage you, as well as all divorced parents, to just make sure that your council isn't rooted in a spirit of fear about marriage that can sometimes results from a broken family. Please don't hear accusation... I'm an adult child of divorced parents so I know the pain. The realities of living in a fallen world are hard, but God's grace is so good. No matter how much education you have, or how well your job pays, if you aren't developing a relationship under Godly council - and if those in the relationship aren't prioritizing their growth in their walk with God, its being built on a shaky foundation.
27. Steve Watters said the following at 3:59 PM on Jun 10:
Great to see the range of comments on this post. I especially appreciate parents jumping in--and I understand the mixed feelings they have about the big step their children are considering.
I'll try to take a stab at a sassy sister's follow-up questions:
1.) In this particular circumstance, are you advocating that parents develop spiritual, social, financial, and emotional maturity in their children for the sole purpose of getting married and having children before the age of 25? The primary thing I advocate is that parents invest in preparation for marriage and family (since there's an 80 to 90 percent chance their child will marry some day) instead of pouring their primary energy into education and career success and hoping everything else will work itself out.
If so, do you believe that it is equally important for parents to display such maturity themselves in their marriages to be an example to their children?
Absolutely. Their example always speaks louder than their words.
2.) What do you believe the root of the parental cautions for their children regarding marriage and family to be? Do you believe it is fear of repeating their mistakes? Do you believe it may stem from issues of control and avoiding the "empty nest?"
Those are good guesses for parental caution. The author also suggests that parents have been marginalized by our culture regarding the role they should play in helping their children marry well--leaving many confused about what, if anything, they should do.
3.)What is your definition of maturity? Can other factors besides marriage and family mature a person?
The author of the article lists a few different categories of maturity, but explains how many of those (such as "accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions") are rather amorphous--and not as demanding as marital vows.
4.) Is the issue that parents are not raising their children to handle the weight of challenges and adversity in life as a whole, or is it just that parents are not raising their children to handle the demands of the marriage covenant?
Perhaps both, but the "demands of the marriage covenant" can be especially hard to prepare children for in a culture that values personal happiness above all else.
5.)For parents, which is a greater priority: developing maturity and the capacity to grow in God and deal with life's challenges overall, or developing the life skills necessary to sustain healthy marriages and families?
The book of Proverbs is a great resource for "developing maturity and the capacity to grow in God and deal with life's challenges overall" and, not surprisingly, it gives quite a bit of attention to avoiding the counterfeits to marriage and to marrying well. This is consistent with the fact that the majority of Christians end up spending a big portion of their lives married and raising children--and in need of wisdom for how to glorify God within those commitments.
28. cn said the following at 4:23 PM on Jun 10:
BDB 23
I'm sure there's some scenarios where its better to make that a sort of rule, but if we are valuing a call to marry as high as the great commission or caring for orphans and widows, then as a body, we're restricting obedience to God's general will for mankind.
Also, there is a difference between leisurely dating and pursing someone for marriage. What in the world could be a better environment for meeting a spouse-to-be than being in an organization that you felt passionate about, spending your time with others who had a like-mindedness?
If we had a better corporate sense on how to help young people get to marriage, then there probably wouldn't be so many rules. Boundless makes good arguments for marriage at younger ages, many articles I fully agree with. Any organization that works with people between 18-30 and prohibits this process from occurring might need to seriously take the issue before the Lord and make sure they have His heart, not just an easy way of dealing with people, or a legalistic or overly spiritualized view of dating. The world already makes getting married hard enough, why should the the church do the same? ;)
29. Jeni said the following at 4:57 PM on Jun 10:
Thanks for your responses to my post Emily C #19 & Nicole Y #21.
I appreciate that it's possible to graduate from a Christian University without getting married. I see your point. Mostly, I think it's ironic that I did get a degree as my dad wanted me to do, as well as successfully evading marriage in college or shortly after.
Here I am, approximately 14 years post graduating with the all important degree. I'd say that my story is on a similar track as Karen's #21.
Just to clarify; I definitely do not think that I'm still single solely because of my parents insisting on my attendance to a secular university. However, I do think there would have been more opportunities to meet and marry a Christian, single man in my college years at a Christian university than the opportunities that have presented themselves in the past 14 years.
Yet, the exciting truth is - that God is a God of Miracles! So, I remain hopeful in Him and His plans!
30. DannieA said the following at 7:33 PM on Jun 10:
BDB...i can't remember if you are male or female...but because I'm female I have a tendency to see it that way...but yes a woman can be just as deceitful, vindictive, and if *stupid* a terror with the credit card.
Maybe parents of women should teach girls how to manage the money so men don't take advantage of them and
parents of men should teach them as boys to be good stewards and manage money so when they are dating, they can figure out if their significant other and them would benefit from financial counseling and training...
31. Ceres said the following at 9:43 PM on Jun 10:
I really enjoyed reading this. It is a perspective i've held for a while but thought no one shared with me. Is there anything else on Boundless that is related to this topic? I've been an avid reader for years and was curious if I missed it.
Thank you for posting!
32. KJ said the following at 5:39 AM on Jun 11:
I'm just curious here - how does this line up with "children, obey your parents" (which seems to expire whenever childhood does) and "honor your father and mother" (which never expires)? Fortunately, I don't have parents like those mentioned, but I really don't feel even as an adult that I can make a life-changing decision like marriage without having their blessing - so if my parents were like those mentioned I would be very stuck.
33. Louise said the following at 7:30 AM on Jun 11:
So....I guess the commandment is "Honor your father and mother....unless they give advice which contradicts Boundless."
Just joking of course....on a more serious note, it does not surprise me one bit that parents advise caution when adult children contemplate marriage.
After all, if the marriages turn sour it will be the families which will be providing the practical help...not Ted Slater and friends.
34. Marci said the following at 8:04 AM on Jun 11:
Jeni (#15),
It's interesting that you brought this up, because I actually have a similar bias. I'm really adamant that when I have children they attend a secular university for undergrad. I'm all for Christian education, but in Canada, even some of the better known Christian universities have sketch academic requirements (the result of funding issues). Worse, when children go out into the world to get a job, who respects these Christian degrees?!?
There are many scenarios where having a christian degree limits ones mobility, and makes it hard to get jobs in anything aside from main stream ministry (partly because of this rediculous ministry hiearchy - somehow having an MBA and being a christian business man or business woman is worth less than being a missionary in Africa...[sigh] don't get me started).
I've also had two friends who got Christian degrees, and ended up unable to get into the secular graduate school of their choice. Both were shocked, hurt, and in so much debt from the more expensive Christian university that now their dream ministries are on hold...indefinitely. This could be a Canadian thing, though, because I've heard that many established Christian universities in the USA are well-respected, and students don't encounter the same problems if they want to get a secular graduate degree later.
I'm one hundred percent fine with a child getting a *graduate* degree from a Christian insititution (ie. the MRS is great...ring by spring or your money back lol) - but that first degree needs to come from a secular institution.
So maybe you can still get your MRS!
35. Kit said the following at 9:58 AM on Jun 11:
Jeni, take heart. I went to a Christian college because my parents wanted me to (I reversed you-I wanted to get a 'real' degree), and I didn't go on a date the whole time. They're overloaded with women and often the boys who are there are not men. My friends who married married people from outside the college.
On another note, I think it is just too young to get married before age 24 or 25. I'm sorry, it just is. Things like living on your own after college, learning financial independence, working your first job, and all of that are REALLY important. I know that it does work for some people to marry younger, but oftentimes parents have a good point when they think it's too young. Oftentimes, especially in our culture where we fail to realize that marriage is for life--not the life of our sexual desire or infatuation or whatever--it really just is too young.
It is a very different time than the 50s when people were popping out babies at age 22 and finished with a family by age 28. It's a commitment many people make with too little life experience, and parents are only making good observations. Being finished with undergraduate school is imperative if it's on the agenda for either--otherwise, it's hard to go back, and costly. Do it now. There's plenty of time for marriage ,and then you're all set to receive a rate of pay that will support your family--in a job you hopefully enjoy, so you're happier, too.
36. B. Minich said the following at 10:30 AM on Jun 11:
#35: I could not disagree more! I think that there are many 18-19 year olds mature enough for marriage. What is important is the maturity of the individuals involved. Some 18 year olds are ready for marriage, and some 29 year olds are not. I don't believe that place in college has anything to do with it. A marriage can work just as well during college as it can after it.
I personally know one man who got married at 19 recently. His marriage, particularly his care for his wife after she took ill one month after their marriage, have been an inspiration. I see no reason why 18 years old is too young by default - I think evaluating maturity is much more important, and parents are important in that process. They should honestly evaluate their children, and get outside counsel to make sure they aren't clinging on to their children unfairly, but they shouldn't say that there will be an age that their child must be before marriage.
As far as the lifelong commitment and young people not understanding it, again, this is something that 18 year olds CAN understand - it needs to be emphasized, but they can get it. If it is clear that both the man and woman understand this, then even if they are 18-19 years old, there is no reason in my mind to say no.
37. Katie Anne said the following at 11:55 AM on Jun 11:
I am wondering how many of those who are posting about the necessity of getting married later to "have life experiences and learn to live on your own" got married early themselves, and how many of them got married a bit later, and found that it worked for them.
As a 23 year old who got married at 21 (a whole week and a half after graduating from college), I'm not particularly convinced that I've missed out on amazing opportunities in the single life. In the 2+ years I've been married, my husband and I have both gotten reasonably well-paying jobs, payed off the vast majority of our school loans, lived overseas, traveled to four continents, and had the opportunity to participate together in different activities with our local church. This fall, my husband will be going back to school to get his graduate degree, while I continue to work for a few years before we have kids.
Now, all of this is unquestionably God's amazing provision. We could just as easily spent the last two years working retail jobs in our hometown, I suppose. But then, that's true for singles as well. A not-insignificant number of the singles I graduated with are working not-so-great jobs just to scrape by.
Honestly, I don't think I would have had the same freedom to live in a very different culture (the Persian Gulf is a fascinating place to live, but not so fun for single women) or the financial stability to quickly pay off debts (two people living together is cheaper than living by yourself) if I'd stayed single for a few more years. Also, living on your own, just for the sake of your living on your own for a few years, is often a great opportunity to pick up a collection of selfish habits that you'll have to break when you get married. (Personally, I already had enough of those when I got married right out of college.)
Interestingly, my parents, who got married a bit later in life, counseled waiting to get married, while my husband's parents, who got married even earlier than we did (and have been married for ~25 years), thought that getting married young was a good idea. Point being, if you go into marriage committed to making it work, with divorce not an option, it will work.
For those of you who have said, "Make sure you can support yourself if your spouse leaves you." Wow! Don't you know the person your marrying? Have you not met their friends and family? No premarital counseling? I know that there are always surprises about the person you marry, but there should probably be a few red flags if in fact that they are an irresponsible financial mess. I know the occasional horror story does happen, but I haven't seen it yet in the 20ish couples I know moderately well from school who got married right after graduating...
I'm not really convinced that there is a "right" age to get married, as each person is created different, with very different life experiences. To say, "getting married before you're 24 or 25" seems quite unreasonable to me. It's all about the individual people in question,and their readiness for marriage, not abstract statistically average entities.... (And by "readiness" I do *not* mean "completely mature and financially stable, with no noticeable character struggles", but rather, on the right road, with the basic foundational essentials (i.e. Christian, desiring to serve God and each other).)
In the end, if parents have spent their time teaching their kids to strive after godliness, it probably won't take them until they're 30 to be "ready" for marriage. Generally speaking, person who is striving for godliness is going to marriageable... even if they're in their early 20's, because the fruit of godliness in a person's life tends to look an awful lot like maturity, care for others, financial responsibility, and wisdom in discerning the character of a potential spouse.
38. Katie Anne said the following at 11:58 AM on Jun 11:
B. Minich (#36):
Your post wasn't there when I started writing mine. You said what I said more cogently and winsomely. Nice work! =)
39. Tami said the following at 12:33 PM on Jun 11:
Marci (34): "...when children go out into the world to get a job, who respects these Christian degrees?!?"
What a sad, sad observation this is (bolded part). One would hope that a Christian university would be building a *solid* reputation. Instead, many have a rep for a lack of academic rigor? And they're so expensive to boot?
Sad.
I have to say though, I went to a state-run university a few miles away from a Christian college, and that was sort of true. Even from an example of coursework: my university had four quarters of upper-division History of Christianity courses, plus classes in the history of Protestantism, and history of the contemporary American church, and more. One professor (a believer, and an active member and speaker at a local church) always required a final essay that had to do with the question of how the material in the course had affected your life and personal belief system. I thought it was an awesome way to get people thinking about the truths they'd learned in the class.
The Christian college down the road? *One semester* that covered all of church history. To make matters worse, at the time I was in the area, it was taught by someone whose belief in (little-"o") orthodox Christianity was not very strong, even when I knew her (she also taught on my campus).
Taught well, the history of Christianity teaches you not only about the people and places, but you are exposed to doctrine, heresy, the biographies of the great men and women of our faith, inspiring devotional literature, and more.
Anyway. You can count me as someone who has *wanted* to be married ever since college. And here I am, not married yet, and in grad school per God's leading.
In my case, God has His yet-unknown purposes for having me wait so long. It's not for lack of desire or preparation. And certainly not because I was afraid of getting married at 22.
40. BDB said the following at 1:51 PM on Jun 11:
DannieA (#30):
I'm writing from he male perspective...always!
Marci (#34):
I think the choice of which university matters. You're right, there are some Christian universities in the U.S. that are better than others for purposes of graduate school. A solid school like Biola, for example, has plenty of people who to on to graduate school. In general, those with regional accreditation will be fine. In fact, I know people who've graduated from Hillsdale who've had no trouble getting into law schools like Pepperdine and UCLA. But the LSAT score weighs heavily.
As a graduate of a liberal arts school, I can attest that small liberal arts schools send a lot more students to graduate schools than secular public universities. They can be MUCH more intellectually challenging. That results in students better prepared for further study. In my opinion, most of the secular public universities are intent only on preparing students for entry-level jobs; not teaching them how to think. Keep in mind that only 7% of the U.S. population or so gets a graduate degree.
Personally, I would lean towards a Christian liberal arts school for any kids I might have; preferably one with regional accreditation so they can get into all graduate schools with the right test scores.
That said, I attended technically "secular" private schools, and I could easily fill my schedule with Christian professors. But that required attending schools which had a fair number of "conservative" faculty. They also had a lot of angst between the liberal and conservative faculty. I do think that intellectual competition helped keep the conservatives on their toes and working harder than in a "safe" Christian-school environment.
41. Loris said the following at 2:58 PM on Jun 11:
Interestingly, my parents were not an ice bucket to my young marriage; more like shoveling coal on the fire! When I turned 20 without a boyfriend, my dad started praying actively that I would have a boyfriend by the end of that year. A year later, almost to the day of my birthday, I got married. Talk about overkill! And then my parents put down their shovels, congratulated each other, and picked up the ice buckets on the topic of children. What's also interesting is that my in-laws, who are nearly 20 years younger than my parents, are frantic for grandchildren while my retiree parents with poor health are NOT bleating "give me grandbabies before I die." Oh, and I'm asking my dad not to pray for me to have children right now. With his track record, I'd end up with quintuplets on the first try...haha.
42. BDB said the following at 3:11 PM on Jun 11:
Loris (#41):
Hmmm...well, I'm going to say this before someone else does. Have you tried sending your dad the link to this web site and asked him to pray for all those people? I think they'd be appreciative...might keep him too busy to pray for kids for you...
Just an idea...
43. Kyle said the following at 3:24 PM on Jun 11:
Fascinating blog and comments. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a household with my grandparents, who will celebrate 55 years of marriage in October. Their example has been, to me, a testament to seeking God first in the selection of a spouse and the timing of marriage. He was 23 and she was 19 when they married. While I am approaching 25, I think God's timing for each of us is absolutely critical. I was at the stage of considering a marriage proposal to the woman I was most recently in a relationship with, only to realize one morning that it just wasn't the right person or time. Because I walked away from that at 23, the opportunity opened up for me to go on and pursue my MA, fully funded, and to have a guaranteed teaching position after graduation. Even better, God gave me a living situation that was unbelievably ideal ($250/month!), allowing me to comfortably live on my grad school stipend. Over the next two years, I'll have the extra funds to pay off my student loans and put aside money for my future, all before being married. God's timing was absolutely incredible, and it taught me not to settle for good when He has the best in store. Even now, the woman I desire to pursue is someone I've known pretty much all of my life. These opportunities would NOT have been accessible if I had continued on my own way.
Long story short, it took some time for me to see the beauty of God's plans for my path to marriage, but I am thankful for the position in which He has placed me. Hopefully, we can all keep the faith that He will guide our footsteps and lead us into marriage on His terms and in His own time.
44. Ariana said the following at 5:38 PM on Jun 11:
A point that I've heard emphasized by people telling me to wait until my mid-20s to get married is that they got married in a lot of ways for the wrong reasons: i.e, lack of other compelling options, fear of disappointing the other person/family, ignorance of the things they could achieve independently. I haven't heard one of those people say that marriage isn't extremely valuable--afterall, they only said to wait a few years, not to eschew it completely. They wanted to make sure that I was actively choosing, not just falling into something, or desperately needing something to fill me up.
Our society is going to make it increasingly more difficult (even for Christians) to believe in faithfulness and committment for life. The standard has become so much more about personal happiness to the exclusion of love of the other, and when struggles arise, more and more people are going to assume you should just get a divorce. Given that pressure, sometimes I wonder if it really is a good thing (though not necessarily better) to wait until we've grown old enough to say, "I've lived life as an adult person and have pursued the things I desired to pursue, and knowing what I "could have" had or done, I actively choose to commit my life to another person.
I'm not saying at all that a young person cannot be faithful. I (age 23) don't doubt my ablity to commit to marriage for life today, and could have done so long before now. But I can't help noticing that the source of many people's discontent or regret(that have spoken to me) is that, really, they married before knowing who they were and what they wanted, and what all the options were, and that turned into a source of dissatisfaction and temptation in their marriages.
Is that to say that divorces on such grounds are justified? Not in the least. Committment is commitment, period. And love is love. But I do think that a part of parents raising their children to be mature enough to marry young should include not just the ability to "stick with it," but also a very solid amount of self-knowledge and a clear understanding of God's call on their life in particular (outside of more general pieces of wisdom, such as, "Marriage is a blessing, so find a spouse.")
45. Loris said the following at 6:37 PM on Jun 11:
Haha BDB, I like that. What's nice about the situation is that I really wasn't looking for a boyfriend, much less a proposal. All I wanted was to be treated to a cup of coffee every once in a while. My dad took it upon himself to pray for me and I was really embarrassed when he told me what he was praying about. I thought it meant he thought I was desperate. After all, at 20 I was hardly an old maid. No, he just wanted to see me taken care of. Those of you single ladies with believing fathers, enlist them to pray for you!
46. Abby said the following at 6:31 AM on Jun 12:
Side-note on the Christian College thing -
# 40. BDB: Please be advised that Hillsdale is not a Christian college and should not be used as an example of such. There is a strong Christian presence on campus right now, but the school is not affiliated with any denomination. There is no statement of faith that faculty or students have to sign. There are no chapels, church attendance requirements or bans on students drinking, dancing, immodesty, smoking, dating, having sex, switching religions, etc. Their educational philosophy and academic expectations are excellent, but the school stems from agreco-roman and judeo-christian foundation, not a Biblical Christian worldview. More information can be found at http://www.hillsdale.edu.
47. BDB said the following at 3:42 PM on Jun 12:
Abby (#46):
Gosh, that kind of demolishes my point, doesn't it?
The only people I know who applied and went to Hillsdale were pretty strong Christians.
(In fact, when I went to the graduation BBQ for one of them, someone asked him if he was dating in college. He replied, "Well, some people do 'datng,' and some people do 'courting,' which is when you date the girl's dad..."
I guess that leaves me with Biola (sigh). Though I also think that a business degree from a Christian school will lead to an entry-level job faster than a liberal arts degree from a secular school. But if you want to go to graduate school, a solid, private liberal-arts school will prepare the student better than anything else.
Interestingly enough, BYU has a very respected MBA program...they're they highest rated in "ethics"...
48. BDB said the following at 3:46 PM on Jun 12:
Oops - forgot an obvious nearby example. Loma Linda University is world class and Christian. I've met some Canadians there, maybe that's why...
49. Kit said the following at 9:41 AM on Jun 13:
Arianna, thanks! That's what I was trying to say by emphasizing that young marriage is not necessairily good. You miss out on a lot, and it is a proven fact that your brain changes massively from 22-25. My grandparents on both sides got married no younger ,and both couples celebrated over 50 years. They made wise choices, and did what they wanted. I too have heard far too many people regret a younger marriage; after the glamour fades, they get frustrated because there were things they wanted to do but didn't get to. It's not bad, if you marry young, but personally I don't think it's the best choice. My boyfriends mom got married at 19 and she still regrets it. She loves her husband dearly, but says they could have waited longer because she never got to pursue any of her dreams...
50. DannieA said the following at 10:45 AM on Jun 13:
BDB.....YAY FOR LOMA LINDA
I went there for my M.S. in speech and language pathology.
It's a nice school and has gotton recognition....of course I'm biased though, since I belong to the particular denomination.
51. S said the following at 2:09 PM on Jun 13:
I have seen too many young marriages end in divorce, because they really weren't mature enough to get married. Unfortunately, I've had friends in that situation. It was the next "logical" thing to do after graduating college, etc. If you're young and mature and ready for marriage, then go for it. I think the reason parents hesitate to encourage this is that they're seeing the 'starter marriage' phenomenon and they don't want their kid to go through that.
52. Ariana said the following at 9:36 PM on Jun 13:
Kit,
It strikes me as sad and unnecessary as well when people say that they regret having married young because they didn't pursue their dreams. Sad because, well, we live in a free society and it's a shame to pass up the blessing of being able to pursue whats in your heart without it being a necessary sacrifice. And unnecessary because nothing really would have been lost in the long run by waiting a few more years.
**
More recently as I've thought about wanting to get married I've been thinking a lot about how impatient my relatively young age makes me. Young people tend to see more the "Now! Now!" aspect of life. I want all the good things...now! The career, the family, the life. We haven't lived long enough to appreciate life's prolonged and varied seasons; and we haven't yet seen that it more often than not, works out in the end (the majority of people do eventually find a spouse).
What is often required is patience. The 23 yr. old pines away for what seems an "eternity" for a spouse who comes along at say, 28. And during those 5 years it seems like all is being lost and the clock is ticking and on and on. But after being married for 30 years, that same person will look back and say, "yeah, that timing was about right," and appreciate what they were able to do as a single person during that time...hopefully.
Personally, having already received my education, I wouldn't pass up marriage in favor of an "ideal age." But if God isn't providing, maybe focusing on the long view is better.
53. BDB said the following at 12:26 PM on Jun 14:
So...what kinds of dreams are incompatible with marriage?
For example, travel isn't. My grandparents lived on my granfather's income, and used my grandmother's income to visit six continents. So they made choices.
What "dream" requires sacrificing marriage?
54. Ariana said the following at 5:40 AM on Jun 17:
BDB,
I don't think that there is any "dream" that necessitates sacrificing marriage, in theory, but it may or may not work with the particular people involved and their particular educational, vocational, ministry, etc., goals--and even their superfluous goals.
Some of the people who were talking to me got married without thinking about how that would impact what they as individuals wanted to do in their lives, and as it turned out, it ended up not being quite compatible...or, they accumulated other responsibilities before they could get the chance. One friend's mom, for instance, is just now getting her BA in Nursing, as she's always wanted to do. The reason she didn't the first time around is that they started having children and it was just too hard. It's great that she's able to do it now anyway, but her perspective is that nothing would have been lost had she and her husband not gotten married so young (or, perhaps, it's really the having kids thing).
So, that is why people need to have a clear sense of who they are and what they want, so that when they start talking about joining their life to another person's, they know that that's what they actually want to do. I think the older marriage age is just supposed to make it more likely that people have figured that out (not that they necessarily have). You could very well know earlier than 25.
And regarding “superfluous” dreams, I think there are things like wanting to drive to the southern tip of South America and back, that some people hear and say, “Yeah!” and others hear and say, “Why?” A “yeah!” person might be able to happily marry a “why?” person, but the “yeah!” person might want to have that adventure before marrying the “why?” person so they don’t feel like they missed out. It might sound like a minor thing, but I’ve heard it numerous times. Maybe people let the “I wish I could haves…” linger in their hearts for too long and grow (unreasonably) resentful when things get tough. It’s a real temptation, though.
It's best then to find someone who shares the same dreams as you. And then, things should be great!
55. Khalil said the following at 10:31 AM on Jun 17:
Ariana,
Thanks for your insightful and well presented posts regarding this issue. You're spot on here and I doubt I could have said it any better.
56. BDB said the following at 1:05 PM on Jun 17:
Ariana (#54) wrote:
>>And regarding “superfluous” dreams, I think there are things like wanting to drive to the southern tip of South America and back,<<
Ha! My grandparents did this! In their late 80's. In fact, what happened is that they got stuck at the airport for 24 hours when they were 85. The airline felt so sorry for them that they gave them four sets of tickets anywhere the airline flew. They went:
1) Barrow Alaska - as far North as you can go
2) Southern Tip of Argentina
3) Cruise through the Panama Canal
4) Mediterranian Cruise
Having tottering 90-year-olds show up in the middle of nowhere got them some great customer service.
So yes, I agree that people should discuss those things - if you like to travel internationally, marry someone who likes to travel or you'll never go.
When I was in college, I realized that knew four women, each of whom I shared one or two of four passions: volunteering, politics, economics/business and Christianity. I reasoned that I should hold out for someone who could do all four.
Fifteen years later...maybe that wasn't such a good plan. Perhaps I should have prayed about picking two passions. Do I REALLY need to marry someone who is passionate about discussing politics, or would it be adequate to be able to volunteer with them at church and on short-term mission trips if they let me run down to the university and listen to a political lecture once or twice a month?
What I'm suggesting is that most dreams can be re-formatted so that they don't conflict with marriage and raising a family.