What's in it for Me?
by Steve Watters on 05/05/2008 at 1:58 PM
Our self interest makes the world go 'round. That's the understanding of how most markets work. In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith made his argument about "the invisible hand" of self interest that drives our economic system. He wrote:
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.
If we were to look pragmatically at our lives, we'd recognize that many of our decisions about our work, our education, our free time, and so forth is guided by an invisible hand of self-interest. Though we'd rarely admit it, even the things we feel called to do as Christians often get filtered through the question, "What's in it for me?"
Or maybe I'm the only person who's thought that. Maybe I'm the only person who has stopped to calculate what recognition and even what compensation I could get from various promptings I feel toward ministry opportunities.
Which is why I've appreciated Gary Thomas's book The Beautiful Fight. On my second pass through the book this morning, I spent some time praying about Gary's point on page 122 that "The point of Christian ministry is not personal fulfillment." He goes on to say:
It is not to gain a sense of importance, relevance or significance. The primary purpose of having hands and feet that reach out to others is to display God's glory. This reality necessitates a focus on God's empowerment as opposed to human giftedness.
I know this kind of Christianity 101, but this can be a quite a struggle to put into practice. While Adam Smith is saying on one hand that it is self interest that guides most of our actions, Gary Thomas is saying that our calling as Christians should not be about what's in it for us, but how God can be glorified.
Gary goes on to explain that what we do out of a desire for importance, relevance or significance will only go so far, but that when we seek to glorify God, he can do more through us than we could have ever done in our own strength and wisdom. "Your limitations can bring glory to God as they provide platforms for him to do something that has no other explanation but God," Thomas writes.
So, question for discussion: How can we as Christians do all to the glory of God while living in a world where everything seems to function on the motivations of our self interest?
1. Rachael said the following at 3:00 PM on May 5:
I find a lot of fulfillment from regular involvement in fellowship and service, so thank you for the reminder that I should seek the glory of God over personal fulfillment. It would be a good habit to be more regularly conscious of what should be the ultimate goal.
Recently included a link to How To Fight the Sin of Pride, Especially When You Are Praisedby John Piper. In it, he wrote:
"I take stock that I have never done a good deed for which I don’t need to repent."
I really appreciate his humility in expressing that thought. I've never heard anyone say that before. These words set a good example for us...you know, all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.
Perhaps through whatever we do we can not think we are above having mixed motives. We should strive to recognize our sin...even subtle sin...and perhaps if we strive to be more humble we will bring God more glory when we think it's not us who is so wonderful. We're just part of His plan, tossing up helicopter seeds as we go along. God may choose to cause some to amount to something, and others may just get blown away. And in those times He does choose to do something with those seeds, it is important to remember that it is His strength working through us...not ours.
2. Ben Morse said the following at 3:27 PM on May 5:
I think this is where John Piper's voice is most influential. When what we desire is God's glory and the thrill of knowing Him then we get both personal fulfillment and God's glory at the same time. As John Piper says, "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him."
3. Jacob said the following at 5:02 PM on May 5:
Good thoughts. Given this inclination toward self-interest and the implications of the doctrine of original, inherited sin, there are many questions to level at our motives. Jeremiah 17:9
4. Katherine said the following at 5:07 PM on May 5:
I would like to point out, as my economics-degree friend has told me, that there is a difference between self-interest and selfishness. To live life under Jesus' discipleship and the guidance of the Holy Spirit is an interest of my self, my self-interest. But it is different from thinking the world revolves around me, or failing to have my interests shaped and reformed by the sanctifying work of God. I'm interested in continuing to give monetary support to my friends who are missionaries? Selfish? no, but self-interested. Selfish would be to resent the "loss" of income such support engenders, or to not give money to begin with. Self-interested, in this case, means I have my budgetary desires and actions being shaped by the sanctifying work of God. (Not to brag, honestly--I need to do better--merely to give an example) People have many self-interests, good and bad. The point is for good self-interests to be cultivated, and bad ones choked out.
It is also, for example, in my best interest to maintain myself as a functioning, caring, productive human being because, if I do not, I cause harm and grief to the people whose lives are entwined with mine. I love them, and to not take care of myself in this fashion would be to harm others. It is frankly a waste of time chasing after some kind of absolute selflessness--something we cannot attain. The point is the "renewing of our minds" that Paul talks about.
5. Jacob said the following at 9:16 PM on May 5:
Katerine,
I had a room mate and several other friends who were econ majors when I was in college, and they told me the same, but I never found their explanation of the difference very compelling. It is very hard to say when this so-called "self-interest" ends and selfishness begins.
6. Alex C. said the following at 11:32 PM on May 5:
Wow. I was just about to comment, but Katherine said exactly what I was going to say, only better ^^.
This kind of thing is definitly something I've struggled with in my life; I know I'm not supposed to be "selfish" and do things in ministry simply because I want to be rewarded for my work, but at the same time, I know that serving God is in my best interest; we were created by God to be in relationship with him, and glorify him, and he knows much better than we do what is good for us. Following God is, in fact, the BEST thing we can possibly do for our own "self-interest", because it is the best possible thing for us, the thing that fulfills our purpose as God created us.
I once heard a speaker at my old church say that he prayed that his resolve to follow God's will would be so strong that he would follow God EVEN if he knew he would still go to Hell. It was a very provacative and thought provoking statement for me. How many of us could honestly say something like that? Is it even POSSIBLE that we could actually say that and actually mean it? No matter how I think about it, I can't see how "self-interest" could ever be eliminated from our decisions. It almost seems to be a law of the universe; people always choose what is, or what they PERCIEVE is, in their self-interest. And I struggle with it; because even though I know its in my "best-interest" to follower God, I still wonder, does that make me "selfish"? Christians are sometimes derisive of those who they percieve as converting as a means of "fire insurance", but is this "selfish" or just in the persons' self-interest? Is it "selfish" to accept Jesus' forgiveness in order to escape the fate our sins would leave us with, or just the action that is in our "best interest"?
7. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:42 AM on May 6:
Steve: I'd be very careful how I deal with the issue of "self interest"; all "self interest" is not evil; after all, hunger and thirst are examples of "self interest", as are the desire for a roof over one's head. Some "self interest" takes the form of legitimate need. Being the intelligent fellow, you're probably thinking, "Now come on...everyone knows this!"
Trouble is, everybody doesn't know that.
When legitimate self-interest morphs into selfishness via lust and covetousness, then we have a problem. While those things may help juice up the market economy by fomenting more aggressive risk-taking, they also foment the crashes that have defined economic bubbles, and which impact all of society adversely.
This is nothing new under the sun, as tulip bulb mania brought such havoc in Europe, as did the South Sea Bubble, the Railroad Bubble, the Florida Real Estate Bubble, the stock market bubble of 1929, the tech wreck of 2000-2001, and now the mortgage meltdown.
When legitimate self interest (need) gives way to lust and covetousness, the results are disastrous.
8. Jess said the following at 9:19 AM on May 6:
Oooh Katherine, I'm so glad you posted. I'm doing my PhD in Econ right now, and I've definitely struggled in the past with reconciling the fundamental principles of economics to how I think the world should work. The more I learn, though, the more I realize, too, that self-interest isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, in doing research on household risk-sharing and altruism, you find that if someone is altruistic in the sense that they gain utility from an increase in utility of someone else, this leads to a lot more giving. Here, it's not self-interest that's making someone more selfish--indeed it's making them less so! Of course, this assumes that people are altruistic. i.e. they care about other people's wellbeing. But isn't this the great call, to love our neighbors as ourselves? If this were actually the case, self-interest would actually work phenomenally well (you actually see "markets" work especially well in households where the assumption of altruism seems pretty valid).
9. John D. said the following at 9:32 AM on May 6:
All this navel-gazing about our own motives for serving is a first-class way to focus the discussion on self.
How about just doing whatever it is you do, forgetting to toot your own horn about it and discounting any bogus flattery or praise that comes your way as a result of it?
10. kman said the following at 9:38 AM on May 6:
Was Christ's sacrifice fair?
No. It was utterly unfair that Christ bore our sins. And it was utterly merciful that He chose to do so.
Was forgiving us in God's self-interest?
Was creating man to glorify Himself in God's self-interest?
I'd say yes. Doesn't mean it is sin.
Though on this side of Heaven I think the majority of our actions have a taint of sin in them...I fully expect that most of my deeds-if not all of them - will be "burnt up" in the next life. see 1 Cor 3:15. I don't believe I can accurately determine when I've done something for the Lord vs for me. So I will keep doing what I believe is God's will in the hope that He can use even imperfect people to further His kingdom. He has used a donkey more than once so I guess there's hope for me ;)
11. Holly said the following at 11:25 AM on May 6:
Re: Post 6:
--I once heard a speaker at my old church say that he prayed that his resolve to follow God's will would be so strong that he would follow God EVEN if he knew he would still go to Hell.--
I don't agree with this. I'm not a theologian, but this seems like bad theology to me. I know it's not quite the same, but the only comparison I could think of is, it's like saying, "I'm never going to stop loving God, even if He hates me." Just like that doesn't make sense, because God would never hate us, it's not possible for someone to follow God their whole life, and still go to hell. I understand where the speaker was coming from, but a better analogy would have been, "I will still follow God, even if I have to die for my beliefs."
12. Jonathan said the following at 1:37 PM on May 6:
Like several other posters, I completely agree that we need to be renewing our minds daily in order to, among other things, be more aware of our own selfishness. However, self-interest can be a whole different beast. I would argue (as it was argued to me once upon a time) that no one ever does anything unless self-interest is involved. For example, if I risk my life for someone it will inevitably be because had I not done so my moral sense would have overwhelmed me with regret and depression. For another person, self-preservation is higher up than moral duty, so accordingly they would not risk their life to save someone else and would not have any moral qualms about their decision. Anyway, it seems to me that self-interest is much like self-worth. Both are God-given and good, but both can be turned into something evil (selfishness or pride) if we are not careful.
13. Katherine said the following at 3:23 PM on May 6:
"It is very hard to say when this so-called 'self-interest' ends and selfishness begins."
--Jacob #5
Oh indeed, Jacob. I heartily agree. Yet life's hard like that: it affords far fewer black and white, clear cut boundaries than some would wish. Which is why I sought to stress that the key is transformation by the Triune God's sanctifying work. I cannot fully dissect my intentions; rather, I know that I have interests (interests of my self, self-interests): some are good, some are bad. The good ones are good because I submit my life to God and have him shape my life in community with his people who are are being shaped by God and one another. The bad ones are bad because I'm a sinful wretch who still needs lots of work.
:-)
Jess #8: What interesting research! My friend has gone on to grad school--started in statistics, but has moved more in an economics of religion, ethics stuff direction. I've learned more about economics in conversations with him than I ever did in my high school class.
14. Tara said the following at 3:28 PM on May 6:
John D (comment #9):
Thanks for bringing some common sense to the discussion! I heartily agree. Avoiding sinful thoughts/motives by focusing on NOT having those thoughts and motives are always going to keep them before you. Why not "distract" yourself by focusing on what's right?
And kman (comment #10) LOL at your concluding statement. Clever and true.
And just because you're feeling joyful and fulfilled by obeying God doesn't mean you're only being obedient out of sinful motives. Being joyful and fulfilled are gifts from God. I, like Ben Morse (comment #2), find John Piper very helpful and influential on this topic.
15. Darren Hom said the following at 5:38 PM on May 6:
Interesting post. I find that I agree with most of the commenters here. Self-interest is not a bad thing any more than glorifying God for one's own gain (delight) is a bad thing. Ask John Piper!
I have my own business. On a microscopic scale, my capitalist activities are motivated by self-interest. I want to find a wife, have children, and educate them to change the world. I desire all of these things, so they're motivated by self-interest, but this is not identical to selfishness. My desire for money is as a means to an end.
On a macroscopic scale, look at what my self-interest is doing for others. I make money because I give people what they want: help in a foreclosure situation. Homeowners save their credit (self-interest), banks lose less money by selling to me than by paying all the expenses of a foreclosure and sheriff sale (self-interest), my contractors have the opportunity to make money by fixing up the house (self-interest), and the homeowner who finally buys the property has bought my house because it was her preference of all the available options (self-interest).
I make money by helping people. One of the side effects of helping people is that they get what they want for a smaller expenditure of time or money than if I didn't exist. This boosts productivity and raises the standard of living, giving everyone more time and capital to use in sharing the gospel and discipling the nations. Of course, this mission is what we desire to do, so it is also motivated by self-interest.
I used to think that capitalism was based on institutionalized selfishness. It took a lot of reading to change my mind. Here's some of it. I hope it's helpful to someone!
Biblical Economics in Comics:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-9689680-3927654?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=biblical+economics+in+comics&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
A Biblical response to Ron Sider:
BOOK: http://www.amazon.com/Productive-Christians-Age-Guilt-Manipulators/dp/0930464044/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210116160&sr=8-1
FREE PDF VERSION: http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/dcpc.pdf
Capitalism and the Bible:
http://www.garynorth.com/public/department57.cfm
16. Nicole said the following at 12:21 AM on May 7:
Ah, but is it in my self-interest to bring glory to God? I think it probably is actually. That's what he calls me to do.
But that type of self interest is a long way from selfishness. Selfishness believes the world revolves around me. I make my decisions based on the fact that I think I'm the most important person in the world. Self interest doesn't do this at all. I think self interest is a necessary condition for selfishness but it is not a sufficient condition.
Jess-- your research is interesting. I'm also getting my PhD in economics. Just finishing my first year.
17. obewan said the following at 1:09 PM on May 7:
“So, question for discussion: How can we as Christians do all to the glory of God while living in a world where everything seems to function on the motivations of our self interest?”
In my case, choice of employer has a lot to do with it. If laid off and faced with working for the almighty Wal-Mart for $6 an hour or a recycler for $6 an hour, I would choose the latter out of social responsibility.
I do not fully agree that it is all about self-interest. There are millions of working poor in the US. Once trapped, they can’t get out. They incur huge credit card debts, can barely if at all afford to pay for their own housing, and they can not afford to go to community college, or take time off to interview for a better job in many cases. The number of working poor who qualify and have applied for food stamps has increased at an alarming rate with the recent high fuel costs, increased ethanol production, and world food shortages. It is more about concern for survival than self-interest for many.
One way to bring Glory to God is to contribute to the local food bank. I like the work of Lutheran Social Services in this respect. They are not helping a bunch of selfish or lazy people. Many of those helped are working poor with families to feed, or senior citizens or disabled people with severely limited incomes. The choice is often pay the rent, buy medicine, or put food on the table – pick only two.
18. Alex C. said the following at 2:17 PM on May 7:
When you think about, being "selfish" is not really in ones "self-interest", when you look at the long run ^^.
All this discussion reminded me of a song from a Broadway play that came out a few years ago, Avenue Q. The play itself is pretty crude and militant with its opinions, but it had some pretty witty satirical songs in it too. The song was "The Money Song"; the chorus was "Every time you do good deeds you’re also serving your own needs. When you help others, you can’t help helping yourself!" A somewhat cynical view of charity, but from an economic standpoint its true.
19. IMO said the following at 3:00 PM on May 8:
Not sure if this fits into topic but..
God does give rewards. He rewards us. He wants there to be something in it for me.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 10:42
And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
2 Chronicles 15:7
But as for you, be strong and do not give up, for your work will be rewarded."
I can go on.
Obviously these verses need to be taken within context [not saying that good works get you to heaven].
But the point is that it's okay to do things in self-interest. If God thinks it's a good thing, why would I say otherwise? That would be prideful...
20. Rachael said the following at 3:52 PM on May 8:
IMO,
IMO ( :) Just looked up this acronymn recently), you bring up an interesting thought.
Perhaps rewards are mentioned as motivators/encouragement? Perhaps because God recognizes that we are full of ourselves, it might be His way of dealing with us where we're at? Ultimately, we should technically strive to bring Him glory in all we do, but realistically, if our righteousness are like filthy rags, most likely our motives are often/always mixed...
Anyway it is interesting that rewards are talked of in the Bible...
Wonder what 'treasures in heaven' are...