What Women Can Do to Help Marriage Happen
by Ted Slater on 05/09/2008 at 2:02 PM
You're a single Christian woman, and you have in your head that you're not supposed to initiate relationships; that's the guy's role. And yet it's your heart's desire to be married, to enjoy your husband, to raise children.
So how might you get from where you are now to where you want to be?
Among other things, you can pray. While prayer seems more mystical and less practical than other things you could try, it is truly effective. After all, it consists of presenting your requests before the Creator of the universe. He not only cares for you, but is able to do something about your situation.
And you could invite friends to join you in prayer. Nothing at all wrong with that.
Speaking of practical, let me be practical: Click right now over to the Women Praying Boldly Web site and join their community. It's free, the fellowship is encouraging, and you'll have friends who'll pray for you, and for whom you too can pray.
This may seem like a shameless plug for a friend of mine, but it's really not. It's about helping you do what you can to help marriage happen.
It's a puzzling biblical truth that sometimes we "do not have, because we do not ask." I implore you to join the community of women at Women Praying Boldly, and then, with them by your side, to go ahead and ask.
1. Patrick said the following at 2:27 PM on May 9
What do you think about guys / bros in Christ doing the same, organizing something similar, praying, etc.?
2. Sylvia said the following at 2:30 PM on May 9
Thanks for this, Ted.
Sometimes it seems like there are so many little burdens put on women; little missteps that are keeping us from the desire of our hearts; little contrived "non-optionals" that are contrary to the way God created us and structured our lives thus far.
Its good to remember that God is on the the throne, and that looking to HIM is what is needful.
Hey everybody! Pray for me, will ya?!?!
3. Tami said the following at 3:13 PM on May 9
Patrick -- Do it! :)
4. J. said the following at 4:19 PM on May 9
I wholeheartedly agree that women who wish to be married but aren't yet should pray boldly. I've been praying for a husband for years, and I'd like to think I've been doing so in a bold way!
My concern, however, is that a statement like, "You aren't married yet because you aren't praying boldly enough" could be added to the long, long list of unhelpful things single women are told to explain their status, such as "You aren't married yet because you're making an idol of marriage" or "You aren't married yet because you decided to get a college degree." Let us not forget that marriage has happened for *many* women, Christian and non-Christian alike, with little to no prayer. Should we suggest that single women pray boldly for husbands, and should others pray boldly on their behalf? Absolutely. But let's not frame it in terms of another hoop that single Christian women have to jump through to get to the altar.
5. Jessica said the following at 7:41 PM on May 9
In reference to comment 4: agreed. Reference the story of Job. His friends thought he was going through all of this because he had sinned, when in all actuality, it was because he was obedient. (Sometimes the Christian life is a rough life to live- but always worth the rewards.)
There are such conflicting messages given to young women today when it comes to marriage.
One person will say, "All in God's time. Just wait on Him." As if I can sit at home knitting and one day a strapping young man will come waltzing to my door with a bow on his head, ring in his pocket, and a tag around his neck that says "He's the one."
Another will say, "It will happen when you are not looking for it." That is a dumb philosophy. It's like telling someone, "Whatever you do, do not think about a fluffy white kitten. Think nothing about a fluffy white kitten." You become so paranoid about NOT thinking about the fluffy white kitten that all you think of is the fluffy white kitten.
Or the famous, "It will happen when you are ready for it." Here is my question, "What, exactly, must one do to become 'ready' for marriage?"
It's conflicting, discouraging, and the sad thing is, it's all from the Body of Christ!
I must say, I bought Candice's book the day it became available. I read it through in one sitting, and it changed my perspective entirely. I had never thought of just approaching God and saying, "God, this is a desire You have given me. It is holy. It is good, and I ask that You work it out in my life (while I'm still young.)" :-)
People were worried that praying like that would cause me to lose my contentment. To the contrary I have found that it helps me be MORE content. Why? Because I'm leaving it in the Most Capable Hands. What is even more amazing is that since I have started praying that prayer, other people who had no idea about this newfound approach began to tell me, "I'm praying that God will bring you a husband soon."
That approach to marriage, and to prayer in general has absolutely revolutionized my life.
6. Ted Slater said the following at 8:48 PM on May 9
J., you wrote that "a statement like, 'You aren't married yet because you aren't praying boldly enough' could be added to the long, long list of unhelpful things single women are told to explain their status...."
I completely and emphatically agree with you. I'm just saying that prayer is not ineffective, and that there's something special about having others join you in prayer about something.
I do appreciate your clarification, though. I absolutely don't want to heap guilt or condemnation on "older" Christian women who've prayed for a husband, and yet remain single. Why they're not married is a mystery to me. But not to God, obviously.
7. brx said the following at 9:00 PM on May 9
And how about after praying boldly and asking God... as you talk with your sisters (or bros for guys) about what is really important in a potential mate, afterwards ask them "is there anyone you know of that you think maybe I should get to know better?"
If they mention someone, be sure to ask why and don't settle for a shallow response of 'oh, I just think you'd look cute together.' or other sillyness.
Grace, peace & adventure!
8. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:04 AM on May 10
How can a woman help marriage happen? I can think of a four-word answer: Come to my church. ;)
9. Rachel said the following at 8:43 AM on May 10
In response to number 4: Another thing to add to the list of unhelpful things: "You're not married because you need to lose a few pounds." This was one thing I took issue with in Candace's book. While I do believe it in important to take care of your body, a few extra pounds should not be seen as something that is keeping you from finding a husband (or wife). In Proverbs 31 where King Lemuel's mother describes an 'ideal wife', none of the things she mentions deal with physical beauty. I tend to view the 'but men are more visual' as a bit of an excuse. Men, what will you do when your thin wife gains weight during pregnancy, and has difficulty loosing it after childbirth? Proverbs 31:30 says "Charm is deceptive and BEAUTY IS FLEETING, but a woman who loves the lord is to be praised."
Personally, I have some extra meat on my bones. In the past year I have changed the way I eat and began exercising more, and am gradually loosing weight. The dilemma I am not facing is what to do when I reach my goal weight. What if a man at my church who showed no interest in me asks me out? How do I know whether it's my trimmer body, and not my intelligence, spiritual maturity, responsibility that made him notice me?
10. Rachael said the following at 10:05 AM on May 10
In comment #7:
"as you talk with your sisters [...]about what is really important in a potential mate,"
-->good idea about asking about what is really important, especially for believers if the advice-giver is a respected believer. Recently I was talking with someone about a particular theological view & label...and knowing and talking with her might make me somewhat more relaxed (but not entirely) with the theological hopes. Part of me would like to marry someone with a wonderful looking bookshelf or ideal bookshelf (in my eyes), one that I don't have -- basically someone with am impressive grasp on theology. But I don't have this elusive impressive grasp of theology, so why should I hope for this in a person?
I have to realize that theological knowledge isn't the most important thing...practical application is more important.
The figuring it out process is kind-of scary. Why can't it always work out for best friends to fall in love with each other on the same day? Then they wouldn't have to waste as much time having fun as they simultaneously figure out the essentials since by that time a lot of the essentials would have been figured out. It just seems entirely safer on the heart that way. When you don't know the person well how do you know how much of your heart to share -- only after you figure out all the essentials? Heart-filtering is not my forte...
Anyway, have fun everyone :)
11. Jo said the following at 11:22 AM on May 10
brx (7), yeah.. I've started praying along the lines of "God please either bring along a suitable guy for me or open my eyes to suitable guys I already know who I might be overlooking!" No shock revelations yet though...
12. EJV said the following at 11:46 AM on May 10
At #8, Amir...
You just reminded me of the joke we have in our small group. Every single person who has actively participated in our small group over the last two years is now married or getting married in the next two months. Come July, our small group will be mostly newlyweds! It's exciting and could be a great way to recruit people for our group. ;)
13. BDB said the following at 3:57 PM on May 10
Jessica (#5) wrote:
>> "Whatever you do, do not think about a fluffy white kitten. Think nothing about a fluffy white kitten." <<
Aaagh! I'm not going to be able to get that image out of my head now...
14. Lola said the following at 5:42 PM on May 10
Amir, Please expand!
15. cn said the following at 7:38 PM on May 10
Prayer is one area of my life that gets to the core of my heart and shapes it more like the Lords. I can remember the ways my heart changed as I prayed for marriage before I met my fiance. For one, my heart for children increased by magnitudes. My mom went through a struggle which left me to care for my 4 younger siblings in High School. I've always loved children, but realized that I had a bitterness towards the responsibility of raising my own because of what I had gone through. Now I fully embrace the idea of being a mom. Also, I noticed that as I prayed for him, I began asking the Lord to reveal to me any thing in my character that was not of Him, and would be unattractive to a godly man. Just to be vulnerable, a few of the things He showed me are that I needed to be more gentle in how I voiced an opinion, I needed to work on not holding grudges b/c they would put a hardness in my heart that would show on my face and in my life (not to mention, make marriage really difficult!), and :) I needed to be more intentional about smiling more :).
A close friend who recently started dating an amazing man shared with me two revelations that she received, both very profound. The first was that as much as she wanted to be married to a mature man, she would "sabotage" this in ways that she wasn't even aware of, such as overeating before any sort of church meeting so she would feel uncomfortable and gross. She also shared that the requests she was making for what she wanted in a man where prohibiting her from caring about his needs once they started dating. They were causing her to have an inward, self concerned focus. Although my relationship is farther along, I still gleaned off of her new wisdom and was especially convicted by the second statement, as I could see the same thoughts operating in my life. Now my prayer is often "Teach me how to love him, encourage him, and honor him as the soon-to-be head of our house. Show me how to search his heart and know his desires." I wish I had invested in more prayers of this nature for all the years I waited.
I would encourage all, as bold prayers are offered up, to not only lay out the desires of your heart before the Lord, but let that intimate time be one that starts to shape who you are. Don't be afraid to ask the Lord to reveal your unconfessed sin, and show you how to heal from heart aches, disappointments, or abuse. Jesus will clean your heart with His own two hands, refine your character, and bring the freedom to love that comes from healing wounds.
16. alex said the following at 12:21 AM on May 11
Lol good one Amir. :)
Ladies, I don't think we should have to explain our 'status' to anyone. It's nothing to worry about if we're waiting for God's plan, especially when we're praing and activeley seeing His will about it. Don't be so paranoid about people's questions! :)
17. adam said the following at 8:02 PM on May 11
Women could also stop being fickle, that might help.
18. Katie P. said the following at 12:48 AM on May 12
To Jessica...
AMEN AND AMEN!! Thank you for being such an encouragement! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like that. As great as being part of the Body of Christ is, we get so many BAD, un-Christlike messages from albeit well-intentioned people. But we also need to remember God's design and purpose for marriage, and that it's good to desire it.
19. Elizabeth H. said the following at 2:29 AM on May 12
I've had a bit of trouble signing up on the website. I don't know if it's the server or my computer...
20. Michelle (in the UK) said the following at 2:48 AM on May 12
I think this is great. You definitely should pray...loads...and when you pray, believe that this is something that God will bless you with.
We've been talking about this in church recently...actually more generally about how we as Christians are blessed and highly favoured because we are Christians, simply because God died for us. That's all. We often don't live in that...praying for blessings, praying for Favour. I wonder if it stretches into things like this...praying for a marriage partner.
That's why i like the idea, movement, attitude, action of praying boldly! Believe it before it happens. it's called faith :)
Further...we had this discussion last night...girls, if you like a guy...give him something to work with! I was once told (by a man, so guys don't get offended) that a girl could be standing there with a sign that says, "I like you" with an arrow pointing to the guy and he'd still wonder if she was talking about him. This totally doesn't mean pursue but both these men told us women that we need to give a bit, a smile here, a smile there...a cheeky lil' comment (innocent, but cheeky) Guys need to know that you're interested...help them out a bit! :)
21. Tami said the following at 11:18 AM on May 12
Food for thought... A couple years ago I sensed God was asking me to pray for two things: specific prayers for my husband, and prayer for the growth of all the men in my church. I know for certain He's answering the latter in spades, and I think He's answering the former too (but I don't want to be presumptuous!!! yikes, we've been there before). In any case, His answers have been encouraging. I love watching God answer prayers about things I never mentioned to anyone but Him in ways that are so specific it could've only come from Him.
This is not to give a prescription or a definitive answer, but to say -- if you sense God asking you to pray, do it!! And don't get discouraged if you don't see immediate answers. Again - I started this nearly two years ago and I'm still praying. Part of God's point is I'm sure what cn (15) pointed out, to grow us in prayer and in the likeness of His Son... and to refine us so that we get rid of those things in our lives that hurt our relationships. And if you've ever asked God to make you a man or woman of prayer or faith... well, maybe this is His chosen way of doing so. :)
22. Carrie (the original) said the following at 11:34 AM on May 12
I've been hesitent to read the comments on this blog posts for a variety of reasons. I'm glad that some you have a sense of humor! :)
(Amir, next time I pass through KY on a Sunday, where do you worship? :-) )
I like the "fluffy white kitten" analogy. That is SO true!
Also, in response to comment #9 (Rachael): I am right there with you. I think the only answer I can really come up with is I Corinthians 10:23-33. I don't quite understand how to perfectly apply this passage, but I do know that I should be seeking the face of The Father in all things. I shouldn't be eating just to fill myself, but I should eat with a thankful heart. I have found that if I attempt to actually enjoy what I'm eating I (1) make wiser choices and (2) eat slower. It's hard though, especially when I'm in a hurry and I don't really care to enjoy a meal.
However, if we praise our Creator for His provision we will have an easier time being content in Him.
I really wish I could take this advice to heart much more often.
23. a sassy sister said the following at 12:51 PM on May 12
I think what also helps me is when I get off the hamster wheel of comparison. I am not living exactly the same life as everyone else. While I am not endorsing slacking off personal responsibility, I am saying that when we stop trying to do things according to other people's expectations, it frees us to do what God tells us to do individually and live our lives.
24. brx said the following at 1:02 PM on May 12
Rachel (#9) wrote:
"What if a man at my church who showed no [previous] interest in me asks me out? How do I know whether it's my trimmer body, and not my intelligence, spiritual maturity, responsibility that made him notice me?"
How about, ASK HIM!! ...if you really want to know.
The thing with one's weight (men and women) is that it's generally linked to other aspects of our well being. As one changes unhealthy habits and becomes more fit, other areas are often changing for the better as well - areas that also impact the health of relationships.
Grace, peace & adventure!
25. Dan said the following at 1:23 PM on May 12
Rachel (post#9):
I don't know if this will encourage you or not, but not every guy out there wants to marry a wafer-thin supermodel who's barely 20yrs old, no matter what some other people say.
I personally am not really attracted to fake-blonde, skinny women (i.e. what the "world" says I am supposed to be attracted to). Just my $0.02.
26. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:26 PM on May 12
Lola, Carrie: LOL! I'm in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky.
You'll have to e-mail me (you can find it on my blog) to get the church name.
27. Adam T. said the following at 1:47 PM on May 12
I was once told (by a man, so guys don't get offended) that a girl could be standing there with a sign that says, "I like you" with an arrow pointing to the guy and he'd still wonder if she was talking about him. This totally doesn't mean pursue but both these men told us women that we need to give a bit, a smile here, a smile there...a cheeky lil' comment (innocent, but cheeky) Guys need to know that you're interested...help them out a bit! :)
I was going to say that same thing a few days ago, and I figured why bother... but since you brought it up - it's true.
We all know what the problems are with men in the church being passive, etc... but the thing is, young women in the church are the same. Christian women generally are the coldest... I mean, it's one thing to tell men to pursue - I agree that they should. But I can't count the number of women I've tried to talk to, maybe see if there's some possibility there for a relationship or whatever, and it's just like talking to an icicle.
(I should've said - the number of Christian women I've talked to. Non-Christians aren't like this, generally, and they're a lot more attractive for it.)
28. shawni said the following at 3:03 PM on May 12
adam (#17)...
The fickle thing goes both ways. ;)
29. Dan H. said the following at 4:30 PM on May 12
I'd just like to put in a little defense of guys with respect to Rachel's comments (#9). Yes, you are absolutely right that "beauty is fleeting". However, I find that beauty _is_ an important factor in the very early stages of some relationships. As a guy I would put much more effort into getting to know a girl I found attractive visually, than otherwise. If the only thing I know about a girl is how she looks, and maybe a few other details, then her appearance is going to have a disproportionately large impact on my decision to pursue her or not. The exception to this is when I have known a girl a long time, and gotten a good idea of her character and interests, through forums we were both naturally involved with anyway. This setting allows me to "see" her beauty that is inside, and be attracted to that. In either case, there is something that attracts us to a specific girl at the beginning of a relationship but by the time we hypothetically had gotten married, external beauty would be much, much, much farther down the list of reasons I would be attracted to her. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes what's on the outside is all we can see at first and that encourages us to find out if the beauty we see is more than skin deep. If/when we have had other opportunities to get to know a girl better, what we see on the outside is not such an issue.
I don't want to discourage any of you girls out there with this post, but I hope it gives you a more realistic view of what is going on in guys heads.
30. Rachael said the following at 5:02 PM on May 12
Rachel (9),
Wow, you're popular :). And nice name :).
In regard to your last questions...perhaps even if your looks was the reason for striking up a person's interest, most likely it would be in combination with your personality. And as the two of you got to know each other, you might discover more commonalities than you knew...
I'm getting to know someone now. Even though we're becoming friends, my guess is that there is at least some element of attraction or potential attraction. But I don't know what attracted him to me initially, if he was even attracted. He's mentioned he enjoying talking to me the night we met. And he did talk to me a lot that night. So maybe it was just our conversation, though since we are of opposite genders, it is possible he may have been a bit attracted to my appearance. But, as we're getting to know each other, it seems that our hearts have some similarities. So I guess my point is...even IF in my situation the person was initially attracted to me (if he even was) was because of shallow reasons, as we are getting to know each other, I am learning neat things about him on a deeper level, and I think the same might be true for him.
So the moral of the story: don't worry about why someone might be interested in you. Your interest can grow or change as you get to know each other.
Peace ~
31. BDB said the following at 7:11 PM on May 12
Amir (#26) wrote:
>>You'll have to e-mail me (you can find it on my blog) to get the church name.<<
OK, so are you asking THEM to take initiative?
I also want to endorse what cn (#15) and Tami (#21) said about letting your time in prayer change you also. There's a lot of spiritual disciplines which make one a better person. Improving one's discipline about possessions may make it easier to keep one's home clutter-free and available for entertaining guests, for example. And learning to change on your own will definitely help you change things when it becomes necessary to take into account the feelings of others.
As for the weight thing, let me assure you, men who are overweight are invisible, too. The difference of a
32. Stephanie said the following at 7:25 PM on May 12
Re: Rachel (9) and Dan (29):
What if a girl is not naturally "beautiful"? Is it hopeless in that case?
33. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:41 AM on May 13
Rachel says:
First, you need to cut the guys some slack here.
If a Christian guy is interested in you now--and was not previously--it could be any number of things.
Could he be shallow, thinking only of sex appeal? Perhaps.
On the other hand, he could be recognizing that you really are interested in doing positive things that are conducive to good health.
(For the record, I have no problem with a woman having a little extra padding. I also think that is healthy. However, obesity is a different ballgame. To me, that is instability.)
The ultimate bottom line to me is that she takes reasonable--key word here is reasonable--care of herself.
That a guy would not have been interested in you when you were more heavyset was not necessarily a weakness on his part. That he may be interested now that you have embraced a healthier path is a good thing. Don't knock him.
34. Louise said the following at 7:33 AM on May 13
Re comment 29,
Ladies please don't bit his head off.
He's just being realistic and honest.
35. Elizabeth said the following at 8:59 AM on May 13
Is prayer the only biblically correct option?
36. Tami said the following at 10:10 AM on May 13
Elizabeth (35) -- of course not; God expects us to *act*. But I can't imagine entering this endeavor *without* prayer. And we also know that God moves through the prayers of His people. So while I don't think it's the *only* option, I would most definitely say it is the *primary* one.
It's like a seed: sure, you can plant it and hope it'll grow. However, it's fairly unlikely that you'll reap a healthy plant. But by watering it, you're setting up the conditions for it to grow. There's no absolute guarantee it'll grow if you water it, either -- but it sure does have more of a chance to do so!
37. BDB said the following at 1:05 PM on May 13
Stephanie (#32) wrote:
>>What if a girl is not naturally "beautiful"? Is it hopeless in that case?<<
No...but a normal-looking girl will probably end up finding a guy who's discovered that some of the "beautiful" women have really nasty, unkind things to say about people. Someone who is unkind to others will eventually be unkind to you, too.
Looks like my hyperlink failed again.
What I was trying to say is that a BMI of 37 would probably make someone seem invisible, while one at 27 would result in a lot of interaction with people.
You can measure it here:
http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/
38. Dan (real name) said the following at 1:08 PM on May 13
Stephanie #32:
This is Dan from #25, and I know you didn't address me, but I can't help but to chime in on this one. Please don't think someone is hopeless because they are not naturally beautiful. I know it is trite to say this, but everyone is not attracted to the same qualities, and that includes someone's physical appearance (i.e. "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"). Personally, I am not what is considered a "manly-man" - meaning that I don't chop wood in my spare time, I don't fish or hunt, I don't obsess over football or golf, I don't sit on any boards or committees at church, I have never been to Promise Keepers, etc etc etc blah blah blah. But hey, I am who the Lord made me, and just 'cause I don't "fit the mold" doesn't mean I am hopeless.
Maybe you were referring to yourself in your post, maybe not, but all of us who think we are hopeless because of some aspect of our lives (not very attractive, overweight, not "manly", past the age of 30 or 35 - no flames please, I've read comments here and elsewhere that you are hopeless if past such an age - not outgoing enough, etc), we need to, frankly, say "back off!" and put up boundaries to those people. Sure there are some things both women AND men can do to improve their situation, and if there is something you can do, then do it.
Honestly, most of the people in this world are very "ordinary" looking, and the vast majority of them are married. Unfortunately, television and movies have made it out to be that only the "good-looking" people are finding mates (funny, most of them end up divorcing, in jail, on drugs or alcohol, or running from reality show to reality show, or from mate to mate, etc).
39. Lola said the following at 1:56 PM on May 13
Let the guys pray about getting married and then act.
I say we do nothing girls but remain sensitive to the Spirit so that He will enable us to rightly identify our husbands when we meet him/when he proposes.
When I say do nothing this includes NOT dating or spending any frequent one on one time with any guys (especially those that we have undefined relationships with)
Let’s become radically single. Don't do anything with any guy that you wouldn't do if you were married to someone else, ok except getting engaged (only for a short period, just enough time to prepare for the wedding).
Let’s spend time with people in groups and most of all let's stop looking for a husband. At the end of the day if it is God's will that we get married then He wants it even more than we do and we can trust that he will make it happen.
I want to be found like Rebecca was found for Isaac. In the mean time I'll just keep loving being single (freedom) and enjoying the love and support I receive from my parents while focusing on my walk with God (It's fascinating), studying hard and loving, encouraging and praying for the believers and unbelievers in my life.
Let the guys ask around about us, let them do their research without risking hurting us. Let’s encourage guys with our actions to seek out their wives in a way that they don't trample on other women while they do so. Christian guys tend to date girls or just frequently spend loads of undefined alone time with girls in a similar way to guys of the world. The difference is Christian guys think it is ok to go through as many girls as it takes to they find their wives provided that they do not sleep with the girls they date. Well I'm saying that's not good enough, it is also crucial that guys (especially Christian ones) seek to protect the hearts as well as the bodies of the girls around them. That'll be a great way to show love.
Forgive me guys if it seems like I’m being hard on you. I just expect a lot from guys with regards to marriage, as marriage mirrors the relationship between Christ and the Church; the man representing Christ and the bride representing the Church.
Ok confession time, I went on a date with this guy on Saturday night (I only date Christians) even though I'm passionately against dating, so I know it's hard not to date. But dating is just not biblical, is it? You should see the look on peoples (Christians) faces when I say I don't want a boyfriend...lol. My Christian friends make comments like 'How will you get married then Lola', most times I’ll courageously respond with ‘Rebecca didn't date Isaac, now did she?’
On the issue of appearance and attractiveness, I bet that Christ didn’t die for the world because he found it attractive.
I should get back to revising. I’ve got an exam tomorrow.
40. Kellie said the following at 5:16 PM on May 13
Lola (#39), so no dating or time spent with a guy and a short engagement? So basically marry a guy you don't know? I wouldn't recommend it!!
41. Dan (real name) said the following at 6:08 PM on May 13
Lola (post 39);
Just wondering from a gals perspective - so if I ask a friend of mine to help me meet another person (someone specific in mind) - how long should I wait for my friend to speak with the other person? My friend at first thought she would wait until summer. Would it be wrong of me to suggest expediting it?
That is ok to be kind of hard on us guys. I know too many men who sit around doing nothing and expect to find spouses.
42. BDB said the following at 7:14 PM on May 13
Lola (#39) wrote:
>>Ok confession time, I went on a date with this guy on Saturday night (I only date Christians) even though I'm passionately against dating,<<
So...when a woman says she doesn't believe in dating...she's just kidding?
43. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:16 PM on May 13
BDB says:
Dude...get a humor detector.
44. Rachael said the following at 7:33 PM on May 13
Dan (38) wrote:
"but everyone is not attracted to the same qualities,"
-->Agreed!! For example, my preference is not of the 'guy super model' variety, even though this type might very well be some gorgeous girl's dream guy. Attraction is a funny thing...
re: the concept of generally anti-dating (39, even though she dates and is passionately against dating :) )
--> Yeah it would be neat if there was just a bunch of group stuff and interactions and observations, then bang! "The One" pursues. This method might be easiest for people in their college days who are surrounded with people their age. Not only for that age range, but I suppose, easier...
--> Even though I expressed my sentiment in comment #10 (toward the end), as I mentioned in #30, I'm getting to know someone now. Sure, it might end up being more confusing this way than if it was done in my preferred method. But I want to be open even though it might not be Christian subculturally deemed to be 'the best' way. Let's remember that the Bible does not say "Thou shalt not date [or pseudo-date]"...
There's more than one way for things to be done...
45. BDB said the following at 8:31 PM on May 13
Amir (#43) wrote:
>>Dude...get a humor detector.<<
OH! I didn't have it set to "engineer"...
46. k. said the following at 8:46 PM on May 13
Lola - Well, you could try hanging out at gas stations, and offer to fill 'er up. :)
47. Esther said the following at 8:57 PM on May 13
On the question of weight and attraction: Just as we should be working to improve our relationship with Christ, with family, with friends; I think we also need to work on our relationship with ourself. If this includes dealing with a poor self-image or unhealthy attitudes towards eating, then go for it. Personally, fitness and carriage go much further towards my view of attractiveness than straight 'good looks'. An average looking guy who carries himself with confidence and has a good attitude towards physical activity is more attractive than a really handsome guy starting to go seed, or one who is clearly obsessed with his musculature or dress.
I wonder about something, though. I've often been told that I'm attractive, but usually by people who are much older. Is beauty truly universal, or am I a few decades out of style? Or have we lost the art of the sincere compliment?
48. a sister said the following at 10:14 PM on May 13
Pray & smile, eh? Well, I smile. I pray too (& frequently), but probably not a lot about marriage. I work hard, cook well, enjoy hospitality, love children, keep a neat home and am active in my church. I'm also a post-collegiate single and professional who enjoys theology, philosophy and politics. I am not putting my life on hold waiting to be noticed romantically by a brother. My build is average...
One of the brothers on here accused sisters of being cold. I understand what he means, I think. He also said that un-believing girls weren't like that. I think I understand what he means there too. I don't know what to tell him. Friendly goes a long way with most anybody & sisters should be friendly with brothers. Adam T, if there is a girl you are interested in who has been "cold," try being gently persistent for awhile. Some Christian girls have been hurt in past relationships and others have fathers who have taught them to fear all men as potential threats to their purity.
Not an accusation here, but I have sometimes wondered if a lot of believing men are threatened by intelligent professional women - whether some may be inclined to judge us as "unfeminine or anti-family" without ever bothering to have a conversation with us. Likewise, the un-churched men I know don't generally seem threatened by having a conversation with me. They don't seem to find me "intimidating" the way Christian guys usually do...
Now this would bother me if I wanted to marry a man who was threatened by having a conversation with a thoughtful woman, but I don't. What's the point of marrying someone who doesn't even like you or who wants to vow to provide for & protect his stereotype of "biblical femininity" -- not a real Christian woman.
On the other hand, find me an imperfect man who wants to partner with an imperfect woman in the pursuit of godliness, and add in mutual attraction, good character, shared beliefs on the most important things and a love for debate about the rest, and we just might have a path to the altar. :-)
49. Ro said the following at 5:24 AM on May 14
Michelle (post #20), your post was very encouraging. I would quote the encouraging parts – but pretty much all of it was encouraging.
However, its also confused me:) (This happens easily). With regards to encouraging males – I’ve always received the extreme opposite advice. I’ve been told that men feel uncomfortable when women do this / will think that the women is desperate. Because men are meant to be the pursuers. As a result, I’m so afraid of a guy thinking that I’m desperate that I tend to be quite cold to men that I like!
Part of me feels that while men say they like encouragement, when they actually receive it, they feel a bit uncomfortable?
I’m too terrified to encourage a guy – lest he feel uncomfortable / stalked/harassed:)
Also, women are groomed to believe that if a guy is not calling you – “he is just not that into you”. So they will try to get over a guy they like if he is not pursuing her (and she can assume he is not interested if he’s not pursuing her).
Guys do you like encouragement? Or does it make you feel uncomfortable or like the object of your desire is less desirable? I find men tend to find the women they have to work for more desirable – but the women who are sweet and encouraging, even if they initially liked her, they tend to now see her as less desirable because she is making it easy for them and they are not having to work hard for it. Men like to chase. And value more what they have worked for. And I think a women should wait for a guy who likes her enough to pursue her / do something about it.
Guys, these might be some of the reasons you feel Christian women are cold. Also, a lot of us have been hurt a lot when we have given men a chance (even men pretending to be Christians can be players). This has made us reticent to allow ourselves to be hurt again / we are just trying to protect ourselves. So guys – you might have to persevere through a bit of coldness if you really like a girl – she might just need you to.
On the other hand – girls really don’t want to lead guys on. If we know you are not the right one for us, we will avoid doing anything that would create hope in you, to try to protect you, out of our love for you. And this is very hard to do, and sometimes painful, but the motivation is love and to honour and respect you. One of my very good Christian friends is a bit cold to her ex boyfriend when she sees him – because 4 years later he is still single and has not moved on. Out of her love or him, she doesn’t want to do anything to lead him on or cause false hope in him. She wants him to move on and get over her and stop holding on, so that he can be happy.
Also, regarding encouraging males, what do you do when the guy you like is someone you hardly ever see? How do you encourage him then with smiles For example – you were great friends and used to hang out a lot in a big group of friends, but never alone. You have now both moved cities and landed up in the same place, but none of your common friends are there. (And also, to spice the story up – you acted busy whenever he called after he’d just moved up because you thought guys liked aloof girls, and did not want to seem needy?)
In terms of praying about singleness, an area that I have committed to prayer is my tendency to complain about being single. I have felt very convicted about this, and pray about the temptation to do this.
On being attractive – I had a very encouraging chat with one of my platonic guy friends from church. He said that he is attracted to a women’s character qualities and not her physical appearance. Kindness, gentleness and a love for God are things that attract him greatly, and not the way that she looks. He said he would be so attracted to her because of these qualities that he sees in her – that her looks would be irrelevant. He said that the same is true for all his friends, who are all committed Christians.
And women are often warned against seeming desperate! (I think we have to rely on God to help us keep the balance right, but all the conflicting advice on this topic often leaves women at a loss at to what to do).
Part of why I hate being single is because I feel I am not physically beautiful enough for a man. However, when I read Proverbs 31 – physical beauty is not mentioned once. The qualities which we should value as women are inner, not outer beauty.
While there is little to do about the outer beauty – I can pray to God to give me inner beauty and am reliant on him to develop my character.
Amir and BDB – you guys crack me up.
This is a long post Ted – so feel free to shorten it! :)
50. Carrie (the original) said the following at 6:51 AM on May 14
BDB, Amir - simmer down now. . . lower the blood pressure.
RE: Comment 42
One can be "passionately" against something, but the Lord is bigger than our passions and He directs them. One of my closest friends (now married) had all sorts of rules and theories about dating that were blown to pieces when she caught the eye of her (now) husband.
Part of following Christ is being open to being wrong about certain things. Christ changes people. Romans 12:2 states as much.
51. Allison said the following at 7:52 AM on May 14
I love this article. :)
I met my husband when I was only in high school. Although I did pray for my future husband, I did not pray that he would come into my life at that time. After all, I was only in high school, and it was not yet *time* to worry about that much.
HOWEVER, unknown to me, a certain young college guy named Craig had been down on his knees every night asking God for a wife. He had been praying for a wife who 1) Loved the Lord, 2) Desired to serve God overseas, and 3) had an independent personality (which he felt would be handy on the mission field).
Within several months after he began praying that prayer, Craig and I met at a Chinese Bible Study, where he was babysitting and I came by to visit someone else. Having met me he just thought that I might be one who desired to serve in missions (which was exactly right), and I seemed to have the type of personality he had been praying for, so he decided to give it a try, even though I was still in high school.
Long story short, my parents LOVED Craig, and within a few months of meeting, we began dating. We dated for 2 years, and then got engaged (at which point, yes, I was definitely out of high school). 6 months after engagement, we were married, and have been married for a year now (one wonderful year!)
Does God always bring one's future mate into their lives within several months of the request? No, I'm sure he doesn't do that every time. But it never hurts to ask Him. God wants us to come to Him with every concern and every care, and I love how Jessica put it in comment number 5:
"People were worried that praying like that would cause me to lose my contentment. To the contrary I have found that it helps me be MORE content. Why? Because I'm leaving it in the Most Capable Hands."
Why not ask God? There's nothing to lose.
52. Sandrine said the following at 8:12 AM on May 14
To Lola (#39):
I do understand your point of view - this is more or less how it went for me, but I would not go as far as saying this is how it should be for everyone. I met and got to know my future husband in a group setting (young adults group, bible studies, etc.) and we never dated in the usual sense of the word (i. e. never met one-to-one). However, after a while, I was aware that he was interested in me and that I was also. He began emailing me and we exchanged a lot that way during a month or two, until the day he picked up the phone and asked if we could meet - and on our first "real date", he proposed. This was last October, and we are getting married in 10 days. I have absolutely no regrets and would do it again the same way (knowing him, it was the only way it could have worked - he has pretty much the same idea than you about dating, and he told me that, if my parents were not living on the other side of the Atlantic, he would have gone to my father first), but it was a huge step of faith, to say yes to somebody I didn't know that much on a personal basis. I knew a lot about him on a spiritual level, but not so much otherwise, and the first weeks of our engagement were a bit akward and full of surprises (although no bad ones, I should add). Personally, I would have been open to do things a bit differently - I don't like the idea of dating for a long time and staying in a relationship limbo, but I'm not against some time to get to know the guy better before the question is asked. And one last point: I'm 35, and he is 30, so I think the age and maturity level helped also. I don't know if I could have done that 10 or 15 years ago...
53. whs said the following at 8:32 AM on May 14
BDB (#45) wrote:
>>OH! I didn't have it set to "engineer"...<<
Heh. We design them. Engineer is the only setting so it must be off. Check the power plug and the house breakers and call back if that does not resolve the problem.
54. Carrie (the original) said the following at 10:17 AM on May 14
Ro (#49): I encouraged a guy last night, rather blatantly. He said "Thank you". You can't ask for feedback more positive than that.
I should be the last person to give encouragement advice as it will probably come across as pious sounding rhetoric. So, I'll just simply say that men do like to be encouraged.
55. M.R. said the following at 1:31 PM on May 14
Oh my. No wonder people are so confused about marriage and courtship around here! I'm personally making myself confused because every single thing each one of you are saying, even if contradictory, makes absolute sense. It can make one very confused, especially if one is prone to be easily influenced and personally self-doubting ;) i.e., me.
What I can offer (and mind you, this is also self-talk) is that each of us is on his/her own journey. We each have our own story. Beware of going against intuition and gut in an important decision like who to date / marry just because it doesn't "fit" the mold, i.e. the "right" way things "should" go. Speaking from personal experience at least, God *loves* to completely blow us away - blow our expectations, our plans, i.e. the limits we've imposed on Him and His ways, completely out of the water.
That can't happen if we've already planned how he'll completely blow us away, now can it ;)?
56. BDB said the following at 2:44 PM on May 14
Sandrine (#52) wrote:
>>He began emailing me and we exchanged a lot that way during a month or two, until the day he picked up the phone and asked if we could meet <<
Ah - so you respond to e-mail, eh? Anyone who's read Elisabeth Elliot might be willing to try the no-dating approach. But communication is still necessary.
Some women take the approach of not responding to e-mail, either. I used to take it personally, and assume that meant they were not interested. However, I'm finding that in volunteer settings, e-mail fluency depends greatly on experience. We have some volunteer situations at church where half of them don't respond to e-mail at all. Those of us used to using e-mail extensively at work seem to be much better at organizing and planning in writing.
Maybe I should "text" them or something...
57. Tami said the following at 4:46 PM on May 14
BDB (56) -- Count me in with those who prefer to organize via email. It's really tough to catch me on the phone -- if I get an email, I can send my response to a suggested date & time very quickly. Also it's easier to coordinate among a bigger group of people this way -- phoning everyone to try to decide on a dinner or movie time or location is muy frustrating.
Now, if only we could get everyone using their Outlook calendars... ;)
58. Rachael said the following at 5:35 PM on May 14
BDB,
I don't know about texting someone who doesn't respond to e-mail unless she doesn't have a computer...
I used to text a lot during my first stint in Japan but rarely do so here. I don't really like random words appearing when I want another word to appear...and people don't really text me much either - the last or a recent one I got was by accident, I believe :).
Might also depend on the age.
Different people seem to respond to e-mails in different ways. Some people are more open/indirect/heart-y, and some people seem quite direct/clipped/to the point/distant. It can be hard to sense the tone, and the tone that comes across in e-mail may or may not reflect that of the actual speaker.
One thing about e-mail (and verbal) communication, though...if the person doesn't know you too well or if she is uncomfortable or maybe even if she likes you (which could be in combination with the previous possibilities) she may not immediately respond in an incredibly open manner (like the icicle analogy someone mentioned in a comment to some post). HOWEVER, after gradually getting to know her better, she may open up little by little or in a sudden outpouring...
Just saying...
59. BDB said the following at 6:12 PM on May 14
Tami (#57) wrote:
>>Now, if only we could get everyone using their Outlook calendars... ;)<<
As long as they don't include the attachment in the meeting announcement. That makes my calendar too big, then I get an "out of space" warning...or for some unaccountable reason the spreadsheet is 3 MB and it's only 50 lines...(SIGH)
60. Andrew said the following at 7:52 PM on May 14
Esther said: I wonder about something, though. I've often been told that I'm attractive, but usually by people who are much older. Is beauty truly universal, or am I a few decades out of style? Or have we lost the art of the sincere compliment?
I have had the doctrine of sexual harassment drilled into my head since middle school, so it would be very difficult for me to compliment a woman on her appearance (unless she is old enough to be my mother). I think that a woman would be virtually guaranteed to take the compliment the wrong way, so it is better not to give compliments of that nature.
61. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:08 PM on May 14
M.R. , you speak truth. That is SO true. I should use some of that self-talk on myself. :)
62. BDB said the following at 9:50 PM on May 14
Andrew (#60) wrote:
>>I think that a woman would be virtually guaranteed to take the compliment the wrong way, so it is better not to give compliments of that nature. <<
Well, not every woman is guaranteed to take it the wrong way.
However, if a man makes it a practice to compliment women on their looks, it's guaranteed that ONE of them will complain to HR. Now, chances are good that the HR department will sit her down, ask if she told him to stop at least once, and if not, say she's out of line. Particularly if during the mandatory HR investigation the other women in the office say, "Aw, come on - she's just whining! He's fine." And everyone will be forced to go through another round of training, where they show the video that a "you look nice" comment is not actionable, but repeated comments about gender-specific anatomy ARE actionable. And everyone will have to sign the little form again...(lather, rinse, repeat)
So, the guy won't lose his job on the first occurance. But you can assume that if he's a normal guy who wants to keep his job, he'll cut way back on taking the initiative so as to not run into another like her.
Personally, I believe that this is why people are so much more aggessive in places like bars: they hold it in all day at work, and let loose in the presence of alcohol. The rules are different. I've further come to believe that many employed men are importing their work behaviors into church - and this is why so many men below 40 who didn't get married in college don't seem to be dating people at church, either.
Incidentally, I've recently had the chance to discuss this with a couple of pastors. They've spent so much of their life in ministry, they literally didn't know about the extent of harassment training in the workplace. It didn't become widespread until after the Clarence Thomas hearings in 1991.
63. BDB said the following at 10:11 PM on May 14
Rachael (#58) wrote:
>>I don't really like random words appearing when I want another word to appear...<<
You have such a deep command of the language, I can see how you'd prefer to choose just the right word.
Ro (#49) wrote:
>>(And also, to spice the story up – you acted busy whenever he called after he’d just moved up because you thought guys liked aloof girls, and did not want to seem needy?)<<
That's the problem with all those conflicting theories, isn't it?
Well, pray about it and ask God to open another opportunity. You'd be surprised how often that happens.
THEN when it does, compliment him. Preferably not on looks, but on something you've noticed in all that time you spent in groups.
Or you could just introduce him to your mother as, "That guy I was telling you about." Not that it's happened to me or anything...
64. Rachael said the following at 10:39 PM on May 14
Andrew (60) wrote:
"I think that a woman would be virtually guaranteed to take the compliment the wrong way, so it is better not to give compliments of that nature."
-->I agree that I might take a compliment of that sort the wrong way, even if it was just a fleeting moment of wonder, if it was said by a guy near my decade of age who was a non-student or non-family member or not married to a family member...
With regard to compliments of any sort, though, it can be flattering or encouraging to be complimented. It might be good to compliment (at least people of the same gender) more often...though it might not be good to be the cause of too much pride/vanity, a brief compliment here and there could very well encourage another person and encourage him or her to compliment others...
65. Rachael said the following at 11:18 PM on May 14
BDB,
I guess I was referring to that function in the cell phone that chooses the words for you...(maybe you caught that...) but then again I rarely text in America. Absolutely rarely. And I don't often receive them...
But if you are interested in girls like to text - sure, text them! Some people are really texty, I think. Can we say "textile"? No, that word doesn't quite work here...
I do like e-mail, though...but in certain situations can open up way too easily as is evident by my opening up in comments here...
66. Rachael said the following at 11:23 PM on May 14
Ro,
"Guys do you like encouragement?"
I'm absolutely no expert, but my guess is that if the guy is opening up, it's okay to encourage. If the guy is not, it might still be okay to casually encourage. Encouragement doesn't have to be of the romantic or patronizing sort...
67. BDB said the following at 11:32 PM on May 14
Rachael (#65) wrote:
>>But if you are interested in girls like to text - sure, text them!<<
People like that make me realize that video games and texting CAUSE ADHD.
If I did meet one of those texters, I'd need to change my cell phone plan. I'd probably also get in trouble because they'd be a lot younger. Assuming they were an American.
>>Some people are really texty, I think. Can we say "textile"? No, that word doesn't quite work here...<<
You must do very well on vocabulary tests...
68. BDB said the following at 11:52 PM on May 14
Rachael (#65) wrote:
>>I guess I was referring to that function in the cell phone that chooses the words for you...(maybe you caught that...) <<
Yes...I had put that in a response, then accidentally deleted it, and forgot to put it back...
Typing text on a laptop is difficult enough...
69. Karen said the following at 1:02 AM on May 15
I joined the WPB website and have read Candice's book and can't say enough great things about both of them. Yes I'm still single but there is just something about praying and supporting other women who have the same desire as me. God has worked in me and has used this site.
70. Kelly said the following at 3:59 AM on May 15
I used to pray quite desperately for a husband. But you get to a point where you get burned out on prayer. I don't know; perhaps my faith wasn't strong enough.
This year, I've been too busy to even keep up with my friends, much less date. There's been little time to feel lonely. Now, I've made myself this busy ON PURPOSE to fill that hole and it works. I'm so much happier and 'together' these days without that longing.
Praise God!
(And hey, if I had a boyfriend/husband, would I have been able to pick up and move to the other side of the world for an unknown period of time, with two week's notice? I think not!)
71. Lola said the following at 6:12 AM on May 15
Kellie,
The important thing is that we marry the right person according to God's plan for us. We’ll have the rest of our lives to get to know our husbands. It won't matter to me if I don't know my husband personally before marriage. All that matters is that God chooses him for me.
And no, we don't need to date in order to realize who God has chosen for us. Isaac did not date Rebecca in order to realize that she was the one for Him. The first step was that he (Abraham’s servant) and then God revealed that she was to be Isaac's wife.
The problem with dating is that we create emotional attachments with people before we are certain and committed to marrying them. Now I know that many marriages result from dating on deep emotional levels and hopefully with some prayer too, however if it is possible to avoid the hurt that we inflict on those ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends who we don’t marry, I don’t see why not.
To the guys,
I say leave your search for a spouse between you, your family and God. Don’t approach any girl until you are ready for marriage and are certain that she is God’s choice for you. Praying and acting involves talking to God, waiting to hear from Him and then acting on His direction. Dan I hope this helps.
To the women,
I say the next time a guy asks you out or shows interest; ask him if God has shown him that you are to be his wife. If he says no, walk away. I’ll do the same myself. (If he says yes, congratulations)
Very funny K. It did take me a while to figure out your post, but i found it funny when i eventually did:-)
Thanks for sharing Sandrine:-)
72. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:12 AM on May 15
I have always hated texting... it takes too long to get my thoughts across and I greatly prefer sharing some thoughts through AIM on a pc or actually talking on the phone (if in person is not to be had).
However, I recently started dating a guy who finds it difficult to find any time to TALK on a phone and rarely has a PC nearby for him to log on and give me a quick "hi". But he sure does like to be in communication with me...
So, suddenly I'm a "Texter"...only because circumstances have made me one =p
73. Rachael said the following at 7:30 AM on May 15
BDB,
Ha ha. I GIVE tests. Great... I've often noticed that my grammar on here is horrendous, but I think my English bent is more descriptivist than prescriptivist in theory, although in practice I'm more of a prescriptivist when I read and mark up my students' papers. I recently made comments on someone (a non-student)'s speech and he complimented me. Weirdness. As the topic of 'compliments' has recently come up on here...perhaps it's at least somewhat good (or hypocritical) when you're complimented to realize that the thing which you are being complimented on is often not true. I've recently received a couple other compliments and I think..."Does she know how many piles of students' work I'm behind on grading?" or "What? I come across as positive?" (Yes I might often be positive or but I feel like I'm 1/2 glass full and 1/2 glass empty. I think if others share a concern I might try to positive it up sometimes, though..)
Anyway I guess my point is that to some degree it might be good to recognize the fact that compliments can be empty at least in part, even if they are flattering....
74. JessicaF said the following at 9:04 AM on May 15
re: compliments.
I have a hard time receiving and giving compliments--for various reasons, but the biggest being that growing up it was ingrained in me that girls don't initiate. There wasn't elaboration. Which can easily put one on the path to legalistic approaches and stressed, worried spirits. I was also an only child until I was 10. Let's just say it's really confusing to know how to encourage and not come across as initiating. I don't flirt well (but should I? :) ) Because of this, generally if I am more quiet and reserved it is b/c I am interested.
I can say, though, a compliment goes a long way--when receiving a sincere compliment, I feel encouraged for days. It is noticed. And appreciated.
75. Jo said the following at 10:38 AM on May 15
BDB: "If I did meet one of those texters, I'd need to change my cell phone plan. I'd probably also get in trouble because they'd be a lot younger. Assuming they were an American."
I think we caught on to texting waaay before you Americans. I used to be 'one of those texters', not so much now, although I probably am still by these standards...
Kelly: "But you get to a point where you get burned out on prayer. I don't know; perhaps my faith wasn't strong enough."
I hear that (although with a different situation). I think it has nothing to do with faith. Years of jumping through different hoops to try and make it happen (because we and others have to find a reason it's not happening) tend to leave you pretty burned out. If it helps, I just try to separate my feelings towards God from my feelings (at times) towards the church, and trust that He is sovereign and if He's not giving me what I ask for, there is a reason, and either He will show me what I need to change, or He will send the circumstances that will help me to change, or He simply has a totally different plan in mind for me that IS better. I still ask. I still ask passionately at times. But my faith doesn't live or die by His answer to that one prayer, it grows through my decision to continue trusting Him through it, even if I have no clue what's going on.
Read 'Sexless in the City' by Anna Broadway, I'm reading it at the moment and getting SO MUCH from it. Amazingly relevant and honest, lots about how we respond when life and God take us to unexpected places and the plan (ours, and what we assumed was His) seems to have gone out the window. I guess it's not to everyone's tastes but I'm finding it wonderful. (www.annabroadway.blogspot.com - the blog it's sort of based on but actually very different from.)
Lola,
You're brave. My instinct says you're naive, that God rarely works in such clear and obvious ways, that often the path isn't so well lit and even prayer seems not always to so convincingly point me in one 'right' direction. But, I also wonder if perhaps my expectations for God are too limited.
I can't imagine for a second acting in the way you describe, and I'm not sure the advice you give is universally (or even individually) wise. I don't know you but I worry that if your view is the result of teaching you've received, it may eventually disappoint if it's not truly from God...
But on the other hand, God honours courage and faith, and if that's what He is telling you to do, then that's really quite incredible.
I hope none of that offends, I'm just very torn... I find your comments quite challenging to the type/amount of faith that I have and my own expectations of what God will or won't do for me...
76. Tami said the following at 11:22 AM on May 15
Lola (71) wrote: "I say the next time a guy asks you out or shows interest; ask him if God has shown him that you are to be his wife. If he says no, walk away. I’ll do the same myself."
I admire your desire to have guys be more decisive, purposeful, and courageous. Frankly, however, I think most guys would be freaked out by this statement (and it would get around to other guys who might be interested in you...).
Sometimes we only get enough light for the first step. God might've only shown the man to ask you out for coffee, not marry you just yet...
Instead of asking your question up front, I might instead explain your philosophy on your first outing together. If he agrees, then he's a good one for you to see. If he demurs... well, you know where he stands, and you don't have to go out with him anymore. He's not the one for you.
So I'm suggesting, give him a little more of a chance before giving him an ultimatum (which is sort of what your question is).
77. Ted Slater said the following at 11:41 AM on May 15
Lola, you wrote:
----
To the guys,
I say leave your search for a spouse between you, your family and God. Don’t approach any girl until you are ready for marriage and are certain that she is God’s choice for you. Praying and acting involves talking to God, waiting to hear from Him and then acting on His direction. Dan I hope this helps.
To the women,
I say the next time a guy asks you out or shows interest; ask him if God has shown him that you are to be his wife. If he says no, walk away. I’ll do the same myself.
----
I appreciate your heart, but completely disagree with you. The purpose of courting (or "biblical dating") is to determine the Lord's will regarding a relationship, whether it's His will that the two of you become married. The cultural mechanisms aren't in place for most singles to go the same route that the Patriarchs went; most of us have to rely on intentional, pure, transparent, complimentarian, Godward, accountable dating to make a decision about whom to marry.
I would argue that many Christian singles are not getting married precisely because they're taking advice consistent with yours: They're paralyzed from moving forward because they haven't "heard from the Lord" about whom to marry.
If someone wants to get married, I urge them to start dating/courting. It's the route to marriage that most of us in the modern world have available to us.
78. BDB said the following at 2:32 PM on May 15
Lola (#71) wrote:
>>The first step was that he (Abraham’s servant) and then God revealed that she was to be Isaac's wife.<<
And He revealed it because she was serving - and volunteered to go above and beyond the call of duty. So yes, someone who is looking for a servant-hearted woman can see that without dating. Which does mean that any woman who is choosing this method needs to be out in public somewhere serving so that a like-minded man can observe her serving.
It occurs to me that this could be why single women volunteer to serve meals at the church men's retreat...
Jo (#75) wrote:
>>I think we caught on to texting waaay before you Americans. <<
Yes - when I was coordinating schedules with some Swedish college students, and they asked me to send an "SMS," I'm glad I had read the instruction book so I knew how to find that on the menu...
>>I don't know you but I worry that if your view is the result of teaching you've received, it may eventually disappoint if it's not truly from God...<<
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I was remembering another person who mentioned that MULTIPLE guys, in the same year, told her that God said she should be his wife. But if I remember correctly, they were interpreting the fact that their "feelings" hadn't gone away to be the "sign." In all I've read about God's guidance, giddy feelings were never a reliable indicator.
Rachael (#73) wrote:
>>Yes I might often be positive or but I feel like I'm 1/2 glass full and 1/2 glass empty. <<
Or, as the engineer would say, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be...
>>Anyway I guess my point is that to some degree it might be good to recognize the fact that compliments can be empty at least in part, even if they are flattering....<<
And that is the difference between "praise" and "flattery." Specific compliments are a discipline. It requires paying attention to someone - and saying, "You did ____ really well."
>>but I think my English bent is more descriptivist than prescriptivist in theory, although in practice I'm more of a prescriptivist <<
Aaah! I'm in over my head!
Think of the fluffy white kitten...think of the fluffy white kitten...
79. Rachael said the following at 4:38 PM on May 15
BDB, sorry for the confusion :*). Enjoy thoughts of fluffy white kittens and frozen chocolate mousse. Yum (but not the combination...)!
Lola,
I wouldn't want to marry anyone who walked up to me out of the blue and told me he wanted me to be his wife. HOWEVER if we already knew each other pretty well (and even if we weren't close), if he rephrased his thought and said something about courtship (and even if he mentioned the possibility of the end goal of marriage or something about the seriousness of it) or something then I may consider. But absolutely NOT if he just came up and said he knew God wanted me to marry him. I'm not in an environment where I frequently hear people talk like that. But I believe we can't automatically believe people who might say things like that. Even if they feel God told them to do something, it doesn't mean He necessarily did...
Peace!
80. Chris Krycho said the following at 10:42 PM on May 15
Lola, a question for you:
What if, after considerable time spent in prayer and seeking counsel, you felt led to date for a while? I am moving very intentionally toward marrying the woman I am currently pursuing, but considerable amounts of prayer have led me to a committed dating relationship - not to propose before ever getting to know one another. Is that a possibility? Yes, absolutely. Is it a necessity? No, absolutely.
Is it not possible that God works differently in different times and places? Certainly the story of Ruth and Boaz looks considerably different than the story of Isaac and Rebecca. So, it's worth noting, does every single other romance in Scripture. It's dangerous building a theology or philosophy on a single text, and the more so when the text is descriptive, not prescriptive.
For a few other examples, you might consider David and Abigail (though that one's a mite spotty because she wasn't his first wife), or Jacob and Rachel - you don't think they got to know each other at all in those 14 years before they got married? - or goodness, the first half of Song of Solomon, where he is courting her?
Please recognize that the area here is one of Christian freedom. We are to conduct ourselves with purity and above reproach; but courtship in America and courtship in Africa don't look the same - and they do not need to. As long as Christ is the center of the relationship, the parents are honored, and the couple honor one another and do not toy with one another, the relationship is well within Biblical guidelines.
It grieves my heart to hear of extra-Biblical rules placed on people that bring bondage to them. I want to be very clear: if you feel convicted to follow that path, please do! I absolutely want you to go as God leads. However, that God has put you on that path does not mean He has put every other believer on that path. Is it a good and beautiful path? Certainly! Are others also good and beautiful? Yes!
Please feel free to e-mail me; I would love to discuss the issue in more depth and with greater reference to the Scriptures with you.
81. Jo said the following at 1:05 AM on May 16
Rachael (79):
"Even if they feel God told them to do something, it doesn't mean He necessarily did..."
Yes, another good point. A guy I know had a woman come up to him at a service and tell him she believed God had told her they would get married. His wife was with him. He let her down gently...
82. Dan (real name) said the following at 4:37 AM on May 16
Hi Lola (#71);
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. However, and this is not meant in any way an attack on you, but I don't think that the "passive" model is right for some believers (I use the word passive not in a negative manner, but just meaning taking no physical action like asking around for help, going online, etc). I do believe that some people do need to wait on God, but I also think that some people who have done nothing their whole adult years (is that a finger is pointing at me?) need to take some action other than sitting around and waiting for something to happen. I do not have any biblical prooftext to support being proactive, but I am also not aware of any biblical prooftext to support a passive model.
Earlier this year I went on five dates with a woman I knew from college. We had fun and had some good conversation, but after a while we just didn't "click" anymore. No one was "defrauded", there was no physical affection taking place, nothing innappropriate, just two people out having fun (in public) and getting to know one another. This is the kind of dating that I don't think displeases the Lord or defrauds anyone. Sure there was some disappointment after the realization that there will be no more dates with her, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a sin to go out on a few dates with someone without any clear indication of whether she was my future wife. I can say that even though it didn't work out, it is all part of the "data collecting" and did refine in my minde what kind of person I want to be with.
I guanantee that just about EVERY person who has ever posted on this site, or read anything on this site, as well as every editor and writer on this site, knows of or has heard of at least one couple who married, and one or both of the parties will state with absolute certainty that the "first time they laid eyes on him/her, they KNEW that they were going to marry him/her." However, I know there are many other stories of how people married that didn't involve this element.
Again, thanks for your response, and thanks to Ted as well for stating what has been on my mind for several years now.
83. Lola said the following at 6:42 AM on May 16
Ted, you wrote:
"If someone wants to get married, I urge them to start dating/courting. It's the route to marriage that most of us in the modern world have available to us".
How can we say that we serve a living God; one who is the same yesterday, today and forevermore and yet make comments like yours? As Christians, we must allow God to transform our hearts and lives and then do things differently to the rest of the world. Dating is not a necessary means of realizing God's choice of a spouse for us. The bible clearly illustrates that. Let's stop making the Bible look like a work of fiction.
Ted you also wrote:
"It's a puzzling biblical truth that sometimes we "do not have, because we do not ask." I implore you to join the community of women at Women Praying Boldly, and then, with them by your side, to go ahead and ask".
You began on 9th May by advocating the need for prayer, yet on
15th May you say we must date/court in order to marry. I'm beginning to wonder what you truly believe.
Ted you also said:
"They're paralyzed from moving forward because they haven't "heard from the Lord" about whom to marry".
Surely Ted, the church should address the problem by praying earnestly that single people begin to hear from the Lord instead of advising singles to adopt Hollywood's methods.
84. Lola said the following at 7:09 AM on May 16
Tami, Rachael, Jo and BDB,
I hear you:-)
85. Jo said the following at 1:09 PM on May 16
Lola, with regard to your comments directed towards Ted, you seem to see a contradiction between his urge to pray boldly, and his urge to take action. Why can we not do both of these simultaneously?
86. Kellie said the following at 7:03 PM on May 16
Lola,
As others have pointed out there are various courtnship stories in the bible. Why pick the one of Issac and Rebecca as the "biblical" one?
If you feel led to follow that model, by all means, go ahead. I've heard of marriages that started that way (although the only one where I actually knew the couple, the husband ended up physically abusing his wife).
But I can attest to the fact that I know of many happy and God-fearing marriages where the couple met through more "secular" means.
87. BDB said the following at 1:11 AM on May 17
Well, Lola, you got me to go read Genesis 24 again.
The thing that always jumps out at me is that Isaac didn't go himself, his dad sent a servant. So, I suppose the modern equivalent is someone sending their landscaper to go find a wife for their son. That would be an interesting method. Ponder someone's landscaper giving a woman a nose ring.
Anyway...moving right along...
Notice that the servant had a specific "sign" he asked God for - and he got it immediately. So, as he explained his errand, he had a specific sign that he explained to Rebekah's family. One sign was what she did at the well. But the other - perhaps more important one - was that she was of the right family that Abraham had sent his servant to. I'm sure that anyone who gets a two-part sign so quickly would be pretty darn confident - and they'd be able to tell the story of how they asked for guidance and what specifically happened.
And in Rebekah's case, I'm sure she had to think to himself, "Now, why did I offer to water his camels when he only asked me for a drink?" Did God give her a little nudge to do something out of the ordinary, too?
That's a long way of saying I don't think someone should ask - on the first lunch - "Did God tell you I'm your wife?"
But based on Genesis 24, I think it would be fine to ask, "So, how did God lead you to be here today?" And then listen to see if the story makes sense.
88. Ro said the following at 1:36 AM on May 19
Carrie, thanks for the wise words. I'm glad that the guy in your situation appreciated the encouragement:) I'm afraid to encourage a guy that I would like because I would be afraid that he wouldn't like me back.
BDB, thanks for the great advice. I hope its not too late for us. But I think the Lord will cause the right thing to work out in his timing.
89. Lola said the following at 7:27 AM on May 19
Dan,
There's nothing passive about praying.
Chris Krycho,
You've successfully given a couple of examples of marriages recorded in the bible, which resulted from methods different to that of Isaac and Rebecca.
I agree that there are many different approachs to marriage inside and outside of the bible. In fact the marriage of Britney and Kevin Ferderline is another deviation from the story of Isaac and Rebecca. I have used the example of Britney and Kevin Ferderline to illustrate that we don't even need to use stories recorded in the bible to make this point.
However you have failed to provide any example in the bible or any godly teaching/reasoning that shows that God sometimes/always leads us to date when we pray to him for a spouse. There are no such examples in the bible.
I will say this again, there are no examples in the Bible, where a man prayed to God for a wife and God called out and said, “start dating”.
Therefore, unless you can provide any example in the bible where God directed a man to date another woman after he had prayed to Him for a wife, we will have to agree to disagree on the matter of dating.
Now regarding your personal situation, I do not believe that God would lead us to get involved in a "committed dating relationship" (whatever that means) when we ask Him to reveal our spouse to us.
90. Sarah P. said the following at 10:08 AM on May 19
Lola (#85), how are you going to know God's voice when you hear it? I also am worried to read what you are expressing, because I think I once believed something like that without consciously expressing it to myself. When I "fell in love" the first time and then found my feelings unreturned, I kind of exploded. It was all too easy to feel that somehow I had "messed it up" and God was mad at me, because that's what your natural emotions are already trying to tell you in such a circumstance. I've spent the last ten months sorting through terrible pain and deception in my mind.
The truth is this: We live in a dirty world, full of sinful people in search of love. God created the world and society so that even unbelievers fall into something approaching a healthy order when the powerful forces of sex are regulated in a long-term marriage relationship between one man and one woman. God makes every marriage. However, He also weaves every person in his mother's womb, including the child who dies at age five from desperate physical handicaps. You or I might as well have been born that child; you or I might also end up in a painful marriage. God makes no promises that our lives will be easy. In fact, He says quite the opposite many times.
The greatest truth of Scripture is not perfection, but grace in imperfection. We are not told to seek out unnecessary emotional pain, but neither are we told that it is possible or desirable to avoid it. In fact, suffering is what shapes us in Christ's image (Romans 5:1-5).
So, as to hearing God's voice, my personal epiphany came a couple of years ago, after a few months of struggling with God. I was lying in the grass in my family's backyard, crying and praying, "Where are you, Lord God, I want to see you. I want to hear you. Please, talk to me."
And there was no answer. But I looked up, and I saw a tree branch over my head, and it was suddenly so obvious - God's fingers were holding it together at that very instant (Colossians 1:15-17). Scientists don't really know what the attractive forces of the universe are, what gravity is. We name them and talk about them, but really, they just exist. God's fingers. Silent, unremarkable, but miraculous and essential for all of life.
And then it became so obvious - God has already spoken to me. He knew everything I would ever need, and He already wrote it down. It's called the Bible. If I don't "listen" to God every day, it's my own stinkin' fault!
I urge you, Lola, to go see what God promises concerning marriage. If He doesn't promise it, you shouldn't believe it. He does not promise to give a "yes" answer to every prayer, dependent on how fervently you believe something will happen. Nor does He promise you a husband if you sit and wait for an Austen-esque proposal. In fact, as others have mentioned, many biblical stories directly contradict that model.
91. Amir Larijani said the following at 12:16 PM on May 19
Lola: While I am no fan of the dating culture--it is woefully inefficient--there is a fine line between saying that, versus saying that it is fundamentally wrong because it is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Back in those days, marriages were generally arranged, and families often knew each other for generations. Are you suggesting that the marriage mandate needs to be an "arranged marriage" mandate?
(As one of Iranian descent, I have no gripe against arranged marriages, but there is no general Biblical COMMAND to such methodologies.)
I'm all for prayer in seeking one's mate; more prayer is better than less. I'm also for flexibility in terms of methodology when it comes to the act of finding a mate.
Given that Christians in America--such as myself--have gone through more hoops than Americans in previous generations have had to go, and more hoops than many people in Biblical times had to go--I'd suggest cutting other believers some slack on the methodological front.
Where there is no specific Biblical command, I soundly reject any efforts to pass judgment on other believers.
92. Melissa said the following at 12:59 PM on May 19
Lots of interesting comments.
Here is a suggestion: focus on your relationship with God first and foremost. Your life is a vapor. Live for Him - if you get married - praise Him. If you remain single - praise Him. I am going to live my life the way God wants me to live. Marriage should not be the highest goal of our existence on earth. Our happiness is not dependent on marriage and a person is not "incomplete" because he or she is not married at a particular time in his or her life. Put God first period and stop worrying about your marital status- you are adding nothing to your life but sorrow. God sees the whole picture and you will be married (in His time) if that is His will.
93. Carrie (the original) said the following at 1:27 PM on May 19
Lola, if we were to use your line of reasoning, then we wouldn't know how to do a plethora of things in everyday life. The Bible doesn't say anything about buy a car either, yet it's a necessity in most places in the United States of America. Is buying a car a sin because the Bible doesn't say anything on the matter?
Also, as far as "Hollywood methods" go, what I have seen among my friends and what I see in the movies are worlds apart. Among my friends I have seen heeps and heeps of discernment and self-control.
While I don't advocate spending lots of "directionless" time together, I don't see how dating intentionally is a bad thing.
94. Jessica said the following at 7:50 PM on May 19
Wow! I love how comment reels take on a life of their own. :-) Sorry for those of you that I plagued with the fluffly white kitten analogy. Just imagine how it plagues us when it is replaced by 'Don't think about marriage.'
I will confess, I kinda lost interest in all of the comments around number 30, so if I repeat anything after that, I apologize.
In regards to the whole women giving the cold shoulder. I offer up this line of defense, from personal experience. What you see as a cold shoulder could just be her being shy.
I moved from my church in Ohio just over a year ago. After the move a young man from my Ohio church, came down to visit DC (where I now live). It was weird. He was doing the whole 'stare at her while she isn't looking then turn away quick if she looks at you' thing, which got the butterflies all turned up in my stomach. Then, on my visits to Ohio, he would 'walk me to Sunday School.' Heaven knows my cheeks were the brightest shade of red and I could not wipe that stupid smile off my face.
I had NEVER had somebody of his caliber interested in me before and it threw me. So much so that I was actually embarrassed at my inability to handle the situation like a 'mature' adult. It was getting frustrating that he wasn't straight up saying, "Listen, Jessica, I like you and I would really like us to at least get to know each other better." My frustration and embarrassment were making it hard to know how to act around him.
I realized after a while that I was beginning to shut a door in his face that I wasn't intending to shut. The next time I went to Ohio, I vowed to be friendly to him and not commit a 'blush and run' as a friend called it. My heart caught in my throat when I saw him arm-in-arm with another woman from church. Now, all we exchange is a polite smile and a wave.
I gave him the cold shoulder and certainly never meant to. I am not finicky either. I was just plain embarrassed.
I face the same situation again with a young man from my church. It's akward, because the age difference (he is 3 years my junior) strattles a leadership line. I am a leader for our youth group which just happens to include college students. I am so afraid of doing the whole cold shoulder thing again. A friend of mine said that he would begin to pray that I would not unintentionally do that which I do not intend to do.
If a woman gives you a 'cold shoulder' or appears to be very picky, don't take it as that. Now, if she tells you to scram, that is a different story. My honest advice would be to keep pursuing, even at friend status. If you are the first man to ever catch her interest then expect some guardedness, some blushing, some meekness, some quietness...that's just how we are. Our hearts are made to be romanced.
Not sure if that helps, but figured I'd throw that out there.
95. Jessica said the following at 8:14 PM on May 19
(After taking the time to read the comments after #30)
Lola,
I must say I have never encountered someone with your thought process before. Do you have any male friends? As in brothers in Christ that are just plain friends? What are you to do if one of them wakes up one morning and says to you, "I think you may really really be the one." What do you do then? Do you expect him to crack out a ring and propose right there? Just curious. I have a few friends whose relationships progressed that way. It is possible.
I think what you really have to be careful about is creating doctrines out of personal beliefs. If you don't want to date, that is fine. I know many many couples who have met, engaged and married without officially dating. On the flip-side, I know many couples who dated. Is one more holy than the other? Certainly not.
The point is not 'To date or not to date.' That is a personal preference between you and God. As such you cannot, with any Biblical authority, make it a mandate for others to follow. It simply is not a mandate. Neither is a mandate.
Paul is great at expressing this in his Epistles. The conflict of Christian Liberty. You are a new creature in Christ, given all the freedom that His blood can afford (which is COMPLETE freedom).
However, just because something is lawful does not mean it is expedient. It is a case by case thing. There are doctrines of Scripture that stand as pillars of our faith. There are other points that are the tapestries we hang from those pillars.
Some people say women shouldn't wear pants. Others say it is fine. I wear pants on occassion simply because they are more practical. Some say Christians shouldn't go the movies. Others say it is fine. I, personally, don't.
You say no dating, fine well and good. I would prefer to not 'date' (as in one guy, one girl, alone, at night= bad idea) just because I know that I am weak when it comes to areas of temptation. But for some people, such as Chris, who is a dear friend of mine, it is perfectly fine for them to date. Who is to say that praying for a mate could not result in a dating relationship?
Just as there is no Biblical mandate for dating, there is no mandate against it either.The pillars of a relationship are that the couple remain pure and accountable. That they glorify God together and live a life of example. Those are the pillars of the relationship. The curtains you hang in your windows will vary from mine. And you can't judge people by their curtains.
96. Leah said the following at 11:07 PM on May 19
adam, #17, don't be ridiculous. Just because you don't understand women doesn't mean they're fickle.
97. Ariana said the following at 11:38 PM on May 19
Rachel (#79) said:
"I believe we can't automatically believe people who might say things like that. Even if they feel God told them to do something, it doesn't mean He necessarily did..."
--As far as "God told me" goes, I think Rachel gets to the real point: It's not that we aren't interested in hearing God (most of us desperately want to know His will!), it's that the anecdotal evidence shows that more people than not are mistaken in their interpretation of their own thoughts and feelings, making it very unwise for us to simply submit to the desire of someone we don't know well because they said that they heard from God. Discernment is a process!
The successful "God told me" stories I've heard have always involved the mutual revelation and/or desire of both of the parties involved, even if one heard or felt it before the other. It's right to be open to hearing someone say that God's Spirit revealed that you should be together. But you still have to wait for the Lord to confirm it independently in you. And again, sometimes He does it immediately, and sometimes it takes time.
BDB (#87) said:
"But based on Genesis 24, I think it would be fine to ask, "So, how did God lead you to be here today?" And then listen to see if the story makes sense."
--"...listen to see if the story makes sense." I really like that approach...very sensible, yet still one that acknowledges the activity of the Spirit.
I find myself in an interesting position with this one, since I think that I have over time accurately discerned God's intentions for, or the truth about (better terms than "will"?) for a relationship with a friend, and when he asked me what, if anything, the Lord had shown me, I deflected, and said that basically yes I had heard "something" but that the Lord wouldn't reveal something to me without also revealing it to him. I wonder sometimes if I shouldn't have, or shouldn't still, tell him the whole of what I think is true. He did ask after all.
This whole "God told me issue" is so huge in Christian circles. I'd love to see a Boundless article or blog post on that topic by itself. I have a feeling the stories would come pouring in.
98. Sare said the following at 8:23 AM on May 20
I am in a season of life where praying intentionally for a husband makes A LOT of sense. I've never really dated, but rather during that time when most of my friends were dating I was experiencing some tough family/personal crisis's that forced me to grow up, and quickly learn more about myself. I believe that self discovery is a never ending process, but I am finally in this place where I have a pretty good idea of who "me" is... with all of her talents,faults, flaws and gifts. And now, it just seems natural for me to WANT to share that with somebody else. I have never had a consistant, permanant positive male role model in my life, and thus like many girls have dealt with years of struggling to overcome bitterness and distrust towards men...and to chip off the block of lies that I had built in my heart.
I know that having a husband will NOT fulfill my every longing or be an answer to my problems, but I DO know that something is missing... and God has created that spot in my heart for a reason.
I believe that some women are called to singleness, which is a noble calling. But I also believe it is a noble calling to maintain purity in mind, body and soul as you wait and pray INTENTIONALLY for your future husband. I think that intentionality is something that this generation has missed. Everyone dances around actually DOING something.... not actually excercising to get in shape, not actually calling someone but rather just sending a quick post on "facebook".
I desire and strive to live my life with intention. What does this mean to you?
99. Chris Krycho said the following at 8:45 AM on May 20
Lola, you wrote:
Granted, but not to the end you're using it for. The simple fact that I demonstrated that in Scripture itself there are a number of Godly people in Godly marriages that began strikingly differently is sufficient to demonstrate that the methodology varies. I want to say here, as gently as possible, that you are using a bad hermeneutic. You are letting one description - one only, out of a number - become prescriptivist. It is simply bad interpretation to claim that because a single story exists of something happening in a particular way, that God requires that it happen in that exact way for everyone.
Moreover, if we for a brief moment take your interpretation as our starting place, then any marriage that is not arranged by parents is bad. So is any marriage where direct signs from God of a miraculous sort were given. Part of following Christ is learning to know His ways and will without miraculous signs: blessed are those who believe without having seen.
You also said,
This is true in the technical sense of what you're getting at, yet. However, given that we see a number of cases where after prayer a man was led to pursue in woman in drastically different ways - more, in ways that fit the pattern of his surrounding culture.
And if you'd like an example, well, traditional Jewish proceedings of non-arranged marriages ran thus: the man, interested in marrying a woman, would approach her through her family and seek permission to marry. Fine, that fits either your perspective or mine. But then they would be essentially "engaged" - promised to marriage but not yet engaged: that is, in a committed relationship moving toward marriage but not yet legally binding. Then they would become "betrothed" - a legally binding version of engagement. Then at last they would be married. All of this could take well over a year.
Interestingly, that looks a lot like dating. Interestingly, it's also the path that Joseph and Mary took.
The burden of proof is not on me to say that Scripture tells us to date but on you to show me where it tells us not to date. - for where Scripture is silent, we have freedom (and Scripture is silent on the point of methodology, though certainly not on our hearts). The burden is on you to show that Scripture requires rather than simply allows the method you have offered.
I would also caution you: it is a great and fearful thing to say that another believer, who has sought counsel from friends and family, and spent many hours in prayer, simply is wrong and in disobedience to God when all of the above are in accord as to the timing of the relationship and its pacing.
100. Dan (real name) said the following at 1:11 PM on May 20
Hi Lola;
I have prayed for a wife, but as some parents who have been jailed for only praying for their childs healing from Leukemia/Cancer/etc and not brought their child to a hospital, sometimes more action is required. In your post #39, you said:
"Let the guys pray about getting married and then act...Let the guys ask around about us, let them do their research without risking hurting us."
That IS WHAT I AM DOING!!!!, and that is what I was asking you about (this is all said respectfully, not trying to start a fight). My original question was how much asking should I do with a third part about another gal (and I already stated to this third party that I CAN take a no for an answer). Also, as I stated in post #82, I did go out on several dates with a gal, and I did NOT defraud her, nor was there any physical contact with her other that high fives during bowling. I REALLY don't think I hurt her during those dates.
Hey gals, can any of you please respond to my question from post #41? Thanks!