Take Care Lest Suddenness Happens
by Tom Neven on 05/28/2008 at 12:58 PM
One of the joys of living and traveling overseas is finding new and unique uses of the English language.
For reasons I'm not sure of, many such instances of mangled English come from Asia, a "language" known variously as "Engrish" or "Chinglish." I think the mangled language results because most Asian writing does not use the Roman or Cyrillic alphabets, which use letters and combinations of letters to represent sounds and phonemes. Rather, Chinese, Japanese and Korean use ideographs, symbols that represent ideas, not sounds. In Engrish or Chinglish English sounds (even mispronounced sounds) get written down phonetically, and concepts that are communicated by ideographs are put down in literal form, resulting in mangled English. Perhaps some linguistics majors out there can explain it better.
I've encountered many examples of fractured language in my travels around the world. For example, when I lived in Africa a nearby beach had this puzzling, hand-painted sign:
the here.
(A thousand extra-special Brownie points to the reader who can decipher what the sign was trying to say.)
Recently while traveling in Jordan I was at a highway rest area where we were encouraged to enjoy the "falvour" of a certain brand of cigarettes.
Not far from there I found this brand of toothpaste in a small drugstore in Wadi Musa. I also bought a pack of souvenir postcards welcoming me to the "Holly Land," but they apparently didn't make it from the hotel in Aqaba into my luggage.
And then there is this poor fellow working on a road crew in Africa; English, apparently, is not his first language.
Yes, I realize most of us would mangle an unfamiliar foreign language if we were forced to use it. When my wife and I were in Paris many years ago, a waiter switched to English rather than have to listen to my atrocious accent and probably less-than-precise French. I was more amused than insulted.
Anyway, enjoy these fractured phrases and linguistic lapses:
So That's What They Mean by Technicolor Yawn
Goes Well With the Flied Lice ...
On Second Thought, I’m Not Hungry Anymore
No Thanks, I’ll Stick With the Genetically Intact Coconut
Didn’t Walt Disney Try This, Too?
Comes With Instructions for the Heimlich Maneuver
The Coffee’s Pretty Bitter, Too
Sit Down Before Your Read This
What Would Dr. Freud Have to Say About This?
1. Jane said the following at 1:15 PM on May 28:
it is dangerous to bathe here?
2. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:28 PM on May 28:
Actually, Korean for the most part uses a phonetic alphabet.
Japanese has both a phonteic (Hiragana and Katakana) and non-phonetic alphabet (Kanji).
Chinese is the only one which does not use phonetics symbols at all (although some characters do overlap some of the radicals because of the sound but these are rare).
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!
3. BDB said the following at 1:39 PM on May 28:
>>It is dangerous toba
the here.<<
No swimming?
(Due to sharks or rip-tide?)
4. Leigh said the following at 2:04 PM on May 28:
Wow. Some of those are pretty mixed up. But we must admit that even native English speakers can mangle the language pretty badly too. Spelling these days...
Would I be correct to guess that the sign should be translated "It is dangerous to scuba dive here"?
5. P&P said the following at 2:10 PM on May 28:
It is dangerous to bathe here.
6. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:13 PM on May 28:
By the way, I suspect the sign was trying to say:
"It is dangerous to bathe here"
7. Angie said the following at 2:14 PM on May 28:
dangerous to bathe here?
8. Stephanie said the following at 2:34 PM on May 28:
The sign meant to say "it's dangerous to bathe here". The spaces were just asquew.
9. mindlab said the following at 2:37 PM on May 28:
All your base are belong to us!
10. Tom Neven said the following at 2:42 PM on May 28:
Jane (#1) wins. Boy, you people are way smarter than I was then. It took me several months to figure it out. (I'll make the excuse that it was hand-painted and very crude.)
A local river fed into the sea not far away, and I'm guessing there were strong currents. I never went in the water anyway because it was so nasty.
11. Daniel Kim said the following at 2:56 PM on May 28:
The modern Korean Hangul alphabet is completely phonetic.
12. Jo said the following at 3:02 PM on May 28:
My favourite (from the internet) was a Chinese menu that described one dish as "Deep fried looks like squirrel".
But Leigh is right that you don't have to look so far to find mangled English. My local chemist recently changed hands and now has the name of the area as part of its name. Only, they've spelled the area's name wrong. So there's a huge mis-spelled name above the door, under which it claims "We care for the community". Awesome.
13. Louise said the following at 3:12 PM on May 28:
"The manager has personally passed all the water served at this hotel."
Must have been quite a job!
:0
14. Daniel Kim said the following at 3:17 PM on May 28:
While I find the examples of miss-spelled English mildly amusing as I have traveled through Asia myself and witnessed many similar gaffs first-hand, I question how posting those links on a Boundless affiliated site seeks to honor Christ and the diversity of believers around the world. As an Asian-American who grew up in primarily white neighborhoods, I would say I have a heightened sense of what it feels like to be treated as a perpetual foreigner despite being born in America, raised in America, and identifying myself as an American. While I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there is no malice involved, in the future please consider the societal impact of race humor. Bottom line is that what we're laughing at here Asia's apparent lack of ability to spell and/or form coherent sentences correctly in English as most of the links that were posted were of Asian origin. While I'm sure most people will look at those images and think nothing of them, I'm sure you can imagine a minority viewing them and having their pre-conceived notions and stereotypes of Asians reinforced. Please reconsider the wisdom of this material.
15. Tom Neven said the following at 4:17 PM on May 28:
Daniel (#14)
There is no malice here and no attempt to poke fun at anyone, and this is most especially not "race humor." In fact, I poke fun of myself in the post.
I include two examples from Africa, two from the Middle East, one from Eastern Europe, and one from Mexico.
Occasionally we have blogs here at Boundless that are simply fun for the sake of fun, such as Ted's wings recipes or talking about "American Idol."
But I apologize to you. (I don't want to say "if you found offense," since that is weasely and transfers the blame back to you.)
16. Ted Slater said the following at 4:23 PM on May 28:
Tom, my chicken wing recipes are not "simply fun." They are my passion. My summum bonum. My raison d'être.
17. Lola said the following at 4:31 PM on May 28:
Amen to Daniel Kim's post.
Why don't you all seek a second and/or a third opinion before initiating conversations on here (I'm assuming that you don't)?
It's good to seek second opinions because you never know what you're missing until you discover what you're missing (by seeking a second opinion).
18. Jeni said the following at 4:59 PM on May 28:
Fun for the sake of fun! Yeah! I think that's great fun!
19. Rachael said the following at 6:09 PM on May 28:
I love language. I love some of the beautiful combinations that occur as a result of language transfer or an interesting spelling interpretation of the perceived pronunciation or for whatever other reason.
When I was overseas, I loved paraphanalia with fun English on it.
Language is a beautiful thing, if the message is communicated or if the confusion is simply short-term and not integrated into essays too tightly(hard to grade...).
20. BDB said the following at 6:10 PM on May 28:
I suppose it could have been widened by including classic American marketing mistakes because Americans didn't understand the language.
Such as when they tried to sell the Chevy Nova in Latin America. Though I point out that GM denies that this was a serious marketing problem.
Of course, perhaps mistakes by Americans are merely an Urban Legend.
21. Katie M. said the following at 6:15 PM on May 28:
Welcome to my world -- I live in Tokyo. Thanks, Mike Theemling, for correcting the bit about the phonetic aspects of Japanese and Korean.
As an American married to a Christ-loving Japanese man and now living in his home country, we of course have giggled over Engrish.com's archives together a time or two. Our daily commutes are fodder alone for that site. In surprise we often laugh and sometimes cringe, because some of it is shockingly crude. (I'm wondering how thoroughly you've been through Engrish.com, Tom? I remember stumbling over some posts that were pretty inappropriate. Just looking out for you!)
However, being married to a Japanese who lived for 20 years in the United States has heightened my sensitivity to the very real pain Asians can experience in the States. Racism still abounds in too many places. I can somewhat understand what Daniel Kim means. Imagine coming to a site where you feel you belong, one that embraces what you believe and that is a sort of community for you. Then imagine seeing on that community's fantastic blog a post that, while truly in a spirit of good, clean fun, comes too close to re-opening wounds of racist humiliation dealt by people with far less innocent intentions. It could hurt and make some people feel that even here they aren't truly welcome.
I sincerely believe this wasn't your intention, Tom. I'm simply trying to help you see it from another perspective.
I've only lived in Tokyo 9 months, but I can imagine if my church (mostly Japanese) or a Christian organization here had a Web site and one day good-naturedly poked fun at language mistakes made by non-Japanese (not just by Americans but by all foreigners), part of me probably would want to laugh along with them, but part of me might feel distanced from the community.
In many cases political correctness is unwarranted and out of control, but I don't think that's what's going on here.
22. Leah said the following at 6:36 PM on May 28:
Stephanie (#8): on the topic of correct english, the word you're looking for is "askew".
In response to OP: some of those are simple mistakes and not getting a foreign language mixed up (eg. SOTP). I also suspect the flower bag just contained typos. Funny to look at though :)
23. Tami said the following at 7:34 PM on May 28:
I also think some -- like my favorite, the "Spoony" bag :) -- are very thinly veiled efforts to get around American copyright law.
But I do echo what Katie M. (21) wrote -- many things on engrish.com (not including what Tom posted) are vulgar. So, FYI, FWIW, and all those acronyms... know that before you explore other parts of the site.
24. whs said the following at 8:15 PM on May 28:
I once greeted a spanish speaker with "Buenos Dios". I stopped attempting spanish after he stopped laughing.
There is no need to be so sensitive.
25. Marie said the following at 9:53 PM on May 28:
In the interest of fairness/diversity (& partially in response to comment #14) let's include some Americans butchering other languages. The 2 prominent ones I remember:
-JFK, in German, said, "I am a jelly donut."
-a prominent presidential candidate(I forget if it was Al Gore or John Kerry) tried to say "I am embarassed" in Spanish, but said instead, "Yo soy embarazada" ("I am pregnant").
26. xeres said the following at 10:10 PM on May 28:
Daniel Kim # 14,
I totally understand. As an Asian raised in the U.S. for 16 years, I have faced some of the beliefs people hold on to. I find them rather sad especially the minority myth beliefs. I mean, I am an English and Communications major, even though I'm good at math to the point of passing AP Calculus.
27. Esther said the following at 5:49 AM on May 29:
A few months ago I was eating at a restaurant in Spain, where the English menu offered "Prey" as an option.
Most of the members of my group spoke a bit of Spanish, but the Spanish word wasn't familiar to us, and the waiter kept insisting that it was just "prey". One of us ordered it, just to see what it was, but they were all out!
28. Riley said the following at 5:59 AM on May 29:
it is dangerous to bathe here.
Rearrange the letters and you can make it say:
toe touting haberdasheries
or
antibourgeois theatre shed
or
uh big testosterone airhead
29. John D. said the following at 6:46 AM on May 29:
Some Boundless readers may be too young to remember "Wacky Packages," which were stickers that came with bubble gum and parodied well-known consumer products. They were all the rage with elementary school kids in the mid-70s.
Anyway, one of the original and classic Wacky Packages was "Crust Toothpaste" (inspired by Crest, of course).
How odd to see it offered for sale, apparently without irony. I wonder if one can also find Choke Wagon dog food or Ditch Masters cigars in Wadi Musa?
30. Loris said the following at 6:48 AM on May 29:
I guess I don't see what the problem is. I'm an MK from an Asian country and yes, there were typos everywhere, like "Free Brake First" on a hotel sign. But we made some doozies of mistakes ourselves. My mom once said she was very pumpkin instead of very sad because the words sounded similar to her. Another missionary was preaching one time and said in his sermon that he liked to kill people with a spear and eat them. Yet another missionary got the tone for Jesus' name wrong and said instead that a pig died on the cross.
So just give equal representation to language mistakes and nobody should be offended.
31. Riley said the following at 8:01 AM on May 29:
Those of us with a grammatical or etymological bent enjoy noticing the minutiae of the English language, especially when it's misused ever-so-slightly.
We can't halp packing up spilling misteaks.
I see it all around me. There's a shop on the main street with a sign that says "Exiting new, opening soon" -I can't tell if it's coming or going.
On a slightly different tack.
A trip to the local import warehouse is a chance to do some gastronomic exploration. Curry chips, seaweed muffins, flossy pig, peppered bananas, sweet roated fish and preserved wife plum, just to name a few. Seriously, embrace it people.
And I just had to try these:
The ChaCheer(TM) sunflower seeds,
picking the selected large and plump full sunflower seeds from the natural Inner Mongolian environmental-friendly farm, stuffed with traditional herbal flavor,
after steaming and roasting,
the crispy tasty seeds for sure
bring you the happiness of delicious feeling. (they were good and tasty)
32. Priscilla said the following at 8:05 AM on May 29:
"Mangled" English?! Hey, you guys don't own the English language, remember?
If you want to be finicky about it, remember that the language actually comes from England and the Americans "mangle" it every time they mis-spell simple words such as labour, colour, traveller, cheque, grey, storey, tyre, realise, programme, catalogue or plough. (Not to mention the mis-pronounciations -- anti- is supposed to be pronounced ant-ee, not ant-eye!!) And then they have the nerve to spread their "mangled" version to the rest of the world through their word processors and spell checkers :)
Seriously, though, English is a rapidly changing language (and that is its strength). Its "mangled" American version is currently popular largely because of its dominance in the computer software kingdom (much to the chagrin of the British and the Commonwealth!) But wait a while, till more Chinese and Indians adopt it. By sheer majority of numbers, we could end up "changing" (as opposed to "mangling") the language into our own version, which just could become world standard in a few decades or centuries. (Of course, by then, Mandarin could have overtaken English completely as well!)
Just a note, though: I'm Asian, and I really wasn't offended by anything in Tom's post. Like he pointed out, he would mangle Tamil far worse than I mangle English. (Though if I hear one more American newsreader mangling "Manmohan Singh" or "Iraq" -- it really is NOT pronounced eye-rack -- I shall scream!) I guess it comes from living in a culture with myriad languages -- I can mangle Hindi, Malayalam, French pretty well and even a little bit of German, Punjabi, Marathi and Telegu! Nobody really gets offended.
33. Priscilla said the following at 8:12 AM on May 29:
Sorry to nitpick, but small geography lesson here. Daniel Kim (#14) had said most of the examples in the post are from Asia. In his response in #15, Tom said: I include two examples from Africa, two from the Middle East, one from Eastern Europe, and one from Mexico.
Note to Tom: The Middle East IS in Asia. Most of us call it West Asia.
34. Tami said the following at 9:52 AM on May 29:
John D. (29), I have seen the "Crust" sticker, and thought the same thing. :) A friend's older brother had them.
I thought they were part of Mad Magazine? Maybe they had "Crust" too.
35. Esther said the following at 10:11 AM on May 29:
I resonate with Daniel's comment and his call for sensitivity.
Tom, while it is true that you did quote mistakes from other parts of the world, I find myself reading the links on the bottom of your post with a bit of embarrassment as I see a lot of Korean signs in there as well.
On a different note, everyone should read "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" as it provides a great commentary on how punctuation and spelling can change the English language meanings drastically, and the lack of grammar knowledge in America in general. For example, the author notes that the movie "Two Weeks Notice" is missing an apostrophe. :)
36. BDB said the following at 11:49 AM on May 29:
Esther (#35) wrote:
>>On a different note, everyone should read "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves"<<
I have this book!
And the title is referring to a panda, not a guy robbing a diner...
37. Christina (in green) said the following at 12:29 PM on May 29:
If you want to be finicky about it, remember that the language actually comes from England and the Americans "mangle" it every time they mis-spell simple words such as labour, colour, traveller, cheque, grey, storey, tyre, realise, programme, catalogue or plough. (Not to mention the mis-pronounciations -- anti- is supposed to be pronounced ant-ee, not ant-eye!!) And then they have the nerve to spread their "mangled" version to the rest of the world through their word processors and spell checkers :)
What's funny about this...Many of the above words mentioned in the British English language are actually manglings of the French (colour, cheque, programme)...
So, I guess language mangling has been done by everybody at one point or another.
38. Shanka said the following at 9:29 PM on May 29:
Wow, a relatively harmless piece on funny signs turns into a racially charged story. Sheesh!
Trust me, as a black woman living in the Southern US, there are a lot more horrible racist issues with which one can take offense. What we take offense to, quite frankly, is a personal problem: it is only up to the individual how he/she will respond to something. No one can ever make me respond in a way about something if I don't want to. I've been called racial slurs, and it is hurtful and demeaning. I can let it get me down, or I can let it make me stronger.
But that isn't my point.
Race, as we know it, is a purely sociological construct to keep certain groups subjugated (from Chinese Americans to African Americans to Italian Americans).
But, I think that we have to pick our battles; everything can be traced back to a racist ideology if we want it to. While I'm not advocating one to tolerate blatant (or even subtle forms of) racism, I do believe that it is the majority's responsibility to intentionally pursue justice and the minority's responsibility to be more hopeful about the state of racial relations in our country and remember that our true identity is only defined by Christ and never in the opinions, prejudiced or not, of others. Life won't ever be perfect (not until our dear Christ returns), but all of us can agree that it is better (and there's room for improvement, and I believe that there has been progress).
In conclusion, while I do feel a person should be free to voice his/her objections, I also am saying that we should not suspect that everything is about race. If we always bring it back to race, then the issue will never cease being an issue.
On a different note, I'm a Romance Languages major, and I love the study (and subsequent mangling of) all languages!
I won't be offended if you stopped reading halfway through!
39. Daniel Kim said the following at 10:50 PM on May 29:
@15
I don't dispute your intentions and I'm sure it was posted just in fun. But I think we can agree that intentions and consequences unfortunately are often disjointed.
The issue that I was trying to illuminate was not whether I or any individuals may be offended, although that may be a possibility as well, but that I believe the goal of Church should be moving towards racial reconciliations and not away from it. While the images may not be overt racial slurs, I would argue that for some in America, their extent of exposure to Asian culture may be limited to what Hollywood and internet media has to offer. Needless to say, I have not been flattered by Hollywood's portrayal of Asians and Asian-Americans and unfortunately I was not flattered by the content of this blog.
I think the issue here is we're still a long way from true racial reconciliation here in America and my sincere belief is that the Church, the universal fellowship of believers should be one of the main vehicles for reconciliation.
@24
I think there's a difference between the situations and I don't think I need to explain what it is. The issue is not personal offense, as I'm not offended, but rather how a public image gallery may shape people's perceptions of foreigners (not necessarily Asians). Additionally, the opposite of sensitivity is callousness, and I hope that that's not what you're suggesting we move towards as the Body of Christ when there are many who are still many hurting and in need of racial reconciliation.
@30
Just to clarify what the issue is (as well as to anyone else who may be wondering), my issue was less about Asians being offended (as I wasn't nor were any of my friends), as questioning whether or not the content of this blog was a step forward in fostering racial reconciliation or a step backwards. Asian-Americans face a very unique and real set of issues that many other immigrants do not face. Not to belittle the challenges faced by European or African immigrants, but because of America's unique history, immigrants of European or African descent are able to integrate and assimilate into American society within 1 generation. Asians on the other hand, face the challenge of being the "perpetual foreigner". I know 4th and 5th generation Asian-Americans who have surprised Americans at their fluency in English. In that context, I would argue that more sensitivity is due in regards to laughing at Asian ability or inability to speak, write and read English. I'm sure any Asians who have had epithets such as "konichiwa" and "ching chong" yelled at them can resonate.
Anyway, not trying to come off as the "angry asian" or anything, but I do think that Christ commands to love the broken and downtrodden. At a social, but also personal level, I think that all believers have the responsibility to honor Him through their words, actions, thoughts, and anything else you might do.
40. Daniel Kim said the following at 12:17 AM on May 30:
@38
"Trust me, as a black woman living in the Southern US, there are a lot more horrible racist issues with which one can take offense."
I agree with you that while it's not a big issue, it is an issue regardless and if it causes believers to stumble than we have a responsibility to deal with it.
"I do believe that it is the majority's responsibility to intentionally pursue justice"
I brought up the issue because I don't believe there exists a burden on the majority to acknowledge and reconcile the racial tensions that exist currently. More, I find that the issues are swept under the rug and the assumptions made that it's somebody else's problem.
"and the minority's responsibility to be more hopeful about the state of racial relations in our country"
Well, I think that hopefulness is good, but there is a time and place for action as long as it's done with wisdom. Being hopeful for change I believe is not always enough.
"remember that our true identity is only defined by Christ and never in the opinions, prejudiced or not, of others."
I agree, and I'm not offended by the post, I would just argue the flip-side and say that within the context of a fallen world where oftentimes race does factor in to prejudices, our actions, words, thoughts, and blogs should reflect a world-view where whatever we do to the least of men, we do unto Christ. In a perfect world, we could make fun of each other all we want and everything is peachy because our identities are fully in Christ. As you know, that doesn't describe our present reality and in the meantime until Christ returns, we should be continually lifting each other up so that in our good works, even non-believers would praise our God in heaven.
"I also am saying that we should not suspect that everything is about race"
I don't think everything is, but some things lean more strongly to and I think the topics that I mentioned qualify as such.
"At a social, but also personal level, I think that all believers have the responsibility to honor Him through their words, actions, thoughts, and anything else you might do."
Amen. =)
41. Jo said the following at 2:32 AM on May 30:
"it really is NOT pronounced eye-rack"
I am WITH you on that. Ih-rahq, people!!
42. John said the following at 7:06 AM on May 30:
Kim,
You need to chill. As a linguist, this post is in no way offensive, except, in the eye of the beholder.
Anybody can take anything the wrong way (which you're doing now) and twist it to mean something it doesn't.
The Line often focuses on language and this is an example.
Lighten up, man. You're focusing your convictions on the wrong thing.
43. John said the following at 7:38 AM on May 30:
Response to post #33.
Whenever you start out saying "Sorry to nitpik", it's better to avoid it all together.
Do we really consider the Middle East as a part of Asia?
What Asia are we talking about?
Where does Egypt figure into this?
You're confusing geographical boundaries with geopolitical and ethnocentric boundaries.
Another example, is Russia apart of Europe or Asia or both?
Lastly, when we use the word Asian, to whom are we refering?
"Oriental"? "Russian"? "Mongolian"?
Geography is more than just physical aspects of the landscape. And even those can be sujective sometimes.
44. Mike Theemling said the following at 7:49 AM on May 30:
Daniel Kim (#39),
That's good to know you're not like the Angry Little Asian Girl
45. Loris said the following at 8:57 AM on May 30:
Daniel Kim, any misguided person who says the word "chink" in my presence is going to have his/her head bit off by me. I was even called that in high school school once or twice because everyone knew I spoke Chinese-and I'm white. That was infuriating and I cannot imagine how frustrating it must be to live with.
I absolutely agree with you that Asians in the States have a harder time blending in. Black and white and various brown people have been here for hundreds of years. New European, African and Caribbean and Latino immigrants only have their accents to sent them apart. And I agree with you that it is quite annoying for people whose families have been in the States for years to have their ability to speak English wondered at. But I think that comes out of a desire to be sensitive. Most people have no means of knowing when someone who looks foreign "came off the boat" so to speak. People are immigrating to the States in droves from all over the world. My great-grandparents came from the Netherlands. They looked white, but couldn't speak a word of English. I lived in South Florida for a little while and honestly could not tell the difference between a Spanish-speaking person whose family came from Cuba in the sixties and the person who came from Colombia six months ago until they spoke English with me and I could ask where their family came from and how long ago. And then you can throw in the Japanese-descent Hawaiians as an example of a group that looks foreign but isn't, necessarily. Things can get very confusing.
After being overseas for half my life, I would never laugh at a person trying to learn my language; the Chinese people were very patient with us as we stumbled along. There were days when I'm sure the only thing we got across in our conversations was that we were trying. My parents' English students made hilarious mistakes. So did my parents when they were learning basic Chinese. Oh, and in the 80s, my tall, white parents were called "banana nose" by the curious people on the bus discussing the foreigners. This happened pretty much every time we went anywhere. We understood what they were saying, but at that time there weren't that many westerners in our area and we were mostly relieved the conversations were curious and they weren't using any worse epithets for foreigners.
I guess where I'm trying to go with all this is I think it's okay to laugh at innocent mistakes and it doesn't have to divide the Body. When we were overseas and saw mangled English on signs, we did laugh. But it was mostly in sympathy, recognizing that English is a tough language for Asians to learn and vice versa since there are no common bridges like there are with English, Spanish, French and German. A gentle chuckle is enough to acknowledge that something is amusing without demeaning the person who made the mistake. And if you're talking to a real person and they would be mortified at their mistake, of course you shouldn't laugh. However, signs are impersonal and are fair game. Engrish is part of the colorful experience of traveling overseas. And when Asians come here, they have to put up with news and sportscasters using that horrible flat American aaaaaa sound in their names. At least Engrish is funny. The refusal of newscasters to get a decent Asian pronunciation guide isn't.
46. Tom Neven said the following at 10:40 AM on May 30:
John (#43)
If I might come to the defense of Priscilla in #33, I think she was being tongue-in-cheek. I'm guessing that Priscilla's heritage is from India or Malaysia or somewhere thereabouts (even if she herself isn't), and that is indeed part of Asia, even though it sounds strange to the average American's ears.
And, believe it or not, the U.S. military considers the Middle East up to the Sinai as part of Asia. The theater is referred to as Southwest Asia, and you'll often see it abbreviated to SWA. (What would the military be if it couldn't turn everything into an acronym!)
47. Daniel Kim said the following at 10:58 AM on May 30:
@42
"As a linguist, this post is in no way offensive, except, in the eye of the beholder."
I'm not sure how being a linguist qualifies you to rightly judge whether or not something I (and certainly many others) feel may be detrimental to the integration of Asian and Asian-Americans into American society. Unless you are unusually familiar with the Asian-American experience as linguist.
"Anybody can take anything the wrong way (which you're doing now) and twist it to mean something it doesn't."
While this is true, I have read and re-read this entry and many of the comments to re-evaluate whether what I'm arguing for is valid, edifying, and relevant, and I still stand by my original comments. I don't think the content is just "anything" in the context of affiliations, readership, and internet visibility. I think the we can agree that Boundless should be held to a higher standard than just any web blog and I was posting to achieve that.
"Lighten up, man. You're focusing your convictions on the wrong thing."
Hmm... I spent 4 years serving with Campus Crusade for Christ at UC Berkeley ministering to a very large Asian and Asian-American population (44.2% at the time) as well as a Summer project with their Epic ministry (Asian-American ministry). I've seen how God has risen up a generation of Asian-Americans passionate to see His name known in a land that doesn't claim them as their own. Many of us can't go back to the countries of our parents or grand-parents origin for various reasons (language barrier, political instability, cultural disparity, etc). America is what we have, what we know, and what we love. There IS a struggle to be accepted. Too many in fact for me to list here.
I grew up hating that fact that I was Korean-American and different from everyone else at my school and I remember praying to God to turn me white so that I would blend in and be accepted. Since then, God has used what was meant for evil and redeemed it for His purposes. My conviction is to work towards reconciliation of Asian-Americans to American culture and to pro-actively break down barriers that may impede that. My belief is that posting images that may reinforce stereotypes of Asians and Asian-Americans on a Christ-centered website is stumbling block and not a stepping stone to the reconciliation that I've been convicted of.
@45
"I guess where I'm trying to go with all this is I think it's okay to laugh at innocent mistakes and it doesn't have to divide the Body."
True in theory, dubious in practice. This is what we're working towards, but we're not there yet. Until then, we should be sensitive.
"A gentle chuckle is enough to acknowledge that something is amusing without demeaning the person who made the mistake."
I agree, and I believe that the majority of Boundless' readership is very accepting and loving towards people of other ethnicities and cultures. But there may be a small minority that thinks it's ok to demean others and their cultures and that the American way is "God's way". I've personally experienced that towards African, Latin-American, European, and Asian culture so it's a pervasive thing. I'm just trying to make sure we're taking steps in the direction of reconciliation as opposed to away from it.
48. John said the following at 12:14 PM on May 30:
Kim,
You're too high strung, man.
You're projecting.
Take up an important cause and focus that energy somewhere else.
You're waisting your time here.
Tom,
I know what you're sayin'. I'm just asking questions about words because they have different meanings to different people.
By the way, why does nobody ever answer my questions directly? Do they think they're just rhetorical? (By the way those two questions above are actual questions)
I'd really like to know what people's answers are.
49. xeres said the following at 12:14 PM on May 30:
Daniel Kim # 47,
As a Communications major with a media studies emphasis and 1 1/2 generation immigrant, I share many of your sentiments. Just hearing that you had once prayed to God to turn you white is unsurprising yet no less heart-cutting statement. They are many people with self-hatred toward their Asian heritage. I mean, I'm one of the very few Asian girls that didn't end up developing self-hatred. A lot of Asian-American women (AAW) are more likely going to developed self-hatred than Asian-American men (AAM) overall but in terms of sexuality, datebility and media portrayal, AAM are often placed on the shortest end of the stick, fair or not.
The Asian-American experience is extremely hard to verbalized since there is so many kinds of Asian American cultures. There are people from India, Philippines (my home country), Japan, Korean and so forth. There are common characteristics of Asian-Americans but the diversity of the kinds of Asian cultures presents many challenges. In the commerical music world and the CCM world, there hardly any music artist that is of Asian origin. There are probably songwriters and people in the studio that are of Asian origin but there are in a small number.
We still need cultural and racial reconcilation. If you are interested, Daniel, there's a book called "More than Serving Tea". It is a collection of articles from five different AAW who are work with Intervarsity Campus ministry, explaining the joy and challenge of what it entails to be female, Asian and Christian in various areas. It's really good, even though it is a female perspective. I wish there's a AAM version of "More than Serving Tea" for the boys, tho.
50. Laura Hsieh said the following at 2:51 PM on May 30:
I definitely think that Daniel has a point.
I think it may be difficult for Non Asian Americans to understand and fully relate to the effects of how such comments can indeed affect how I along with many other Asian Americans are perceived in the U.S. If you've never been a victim of comments caused by how media etc. has affected how one's race is perceived, i don't think you have can say that it's all fun and games. Even if this post wasn't meant to be racially offensive.
51. BDB said the following at 4:10 PM on May 30:
The comments from Xeres are well taken.
Having always lived on the West coast - and particularly in Southern California, the most diverse region in the United States, I'm always struck when I travel to other parts of the country. On the East coast, so many times things are cast in terms of black and white, as if there are no other relevant ethnic groups. When I worked for a midwest-based company, the executives really couldn't understand why we needed to include marketing in Cantonese, Mandarin and Armenian in addition to English and Spanish. That's the San Gabriel Valley, folks!
(Ok, the Armenian customer base is in Glendale. Not to be confused with Arminian. I'm sure there would be some Calvinist Armenians if they weren't Eastern Orthodox.)
52. Rachael said the following at 5:17 PM on May 30:
Since this thread is internationally...can I just give you an idea should someone have the desire, ambition, and resources to do it, even though it is off-topic (though it might be able to fall into a 'reconciliation' category)?
It would be wonderful if there were more world pronunciation workshops and classes offered where foreign accents and dialects could be studied and better understood. There are typical struggles that particular language speakers have that could be studied. This information would facilitate understanding between (near)native and foreign speakers.
Granted, I'm not doing such a thing even though I could probably go out and research this (if my students, etc., were willing victims :) ) and figure out a way to do it, but, it would be all volunteer and quite time-consuming, so it is not the task for me at least at this point in time. However, I think it would be absolutely wonderful if there could be an enhanced understanding of pronunciation issues all over a given country. So for those of you who are looking for topics for your linguistics/TESOL/English/foreign language/sociology classes....
Feel free to do it! ;)
53. Shanka said the following at 6:21 PM on Jun 1:
My friend is a leader in InterVarsity and read the book "More than Just Tea." She really enjoyed it. She's a female white minister to a mostly male Korean American ministry. No point to that, just thought it was interesting.
Well, the point of what I said before wasn't to say that your argument wasn't valid; I like to think that I gave that sentiment. What I hope I got across was that it's pretty unfair to say that all things given, something is more likely to have a racist undertone than not. I think that's a pessimistic view that is not hopeful. We're called to reconciliation, and yes, I concede that this may be your way of seeking that. But how we reconcile if in the back of our minds we're suspicious? I don't disagree with taking action but I do disagree with the notion that everything calls for action. You know, back when Don Imus poked at "nappy headed girls," every black girl in America collectively gasped: our deal is our hair and how we seek to assimilate to the white European standard of beauty. Our afros and dreadlocks (among other things) make us outsiders, too, despite our longevity in this country. So please trust me when I say that I get what you're talking about and where you're coming from. I could care less what Don Imus said and the relative insignificance of it; I can get mad at someone's ignorance, or I can fight against the 'for real' race issues: like the fact that 1 out of every 15 black males is in jail. One out of every 36 Latino males is incarcerated. Fight that! Fight that injustice! Fight the disproportionate amount that minorities, all minorities, are targeted by the police. Fight the unequal amount of tax dollars going to wealthy schools and leave destitute all the inner-city schools and shut down programs like Head Start and the inability for us to afford quality health care. Like I said, I'm all for a good fight. I think it does the soul good to get a righteous anger and fight for a just cause. I'm just saying not everything is a cause to fight for. Gotta pick your battles else you won't have anyone left to fight alongside you.
And I would never want to live in a world where all we did was make fun of each other! :)
54. Tami said the following at 9:40 AM on Jun 2:
Thanks for your post (53), Shanka. It was encouraging. :)
55. Daniel Kim said the following at 2:49 PM on Jun 2:
@53
Shanka, thank you for your insights and I really do appreciate your experiences and wisdom into the issue at hand.
It's not that I disagree with the truths behind what you said but I believe that while the root causes of injustice against African-Americans and Asian-Americans are the same (namely sin), the manifestations are not and therefore the battles are not. This in no way makes the struggles of the African-American church better or worse than the Asian-American church, just different. The reason why I felt led to post on this particular issue is that language IS one of the main struggles of the Asian-American experience. The parallel example drawing from your statistic of 1/15 of black males being incarcerated would be if there were humorous pictures of people in jail and significant portion of them were black. I would think that that would be counter-productive to promoting racial reconciliation don't you think? Hence my response to the pictures on this post.
Additionally, I raise my voice because in all honesty, there AREN'T very many voices that speak out for Asian-American church. We don't have a Martin-Luther King Jr. or a Cesar Chavez in our history. I challenge any poster to name 1, even just 1 Asian-American activist and his or her accomplishments that is recognized by a significant portion of the American population. How many people are aware the most decorated military unit in our nation's history was an Asian-American unit (the 442nd regiment)? How many schools in the U.S. teach a distinct Asian-American history segment? Most people don't know and don't care about the struggles and uniqueness of the Asian-American experience. My belief is that the Church should care, when the world does not.
I believe that the beauty of the Body of Christ is that each member has it's unique function, passions, experiences and that is what makes it whole. The purpose of my posts is merely to share the insight that I have gathered from the trials, blessings, and convictions laid upon me by God and hopefully the readers can walk away perhaps being a little bit more aware and more empathetic to the mosaic of cultures that makes up the U.S.
I hope this explains a bit more why I feel I need to respond when a poster comments about how I should "focus my energy somewhere important" because it implies that this issue is NOT important. And quite frankly, that's precisely why I brought up the issue, because there are people out there who are ignorant to our struggles and dismiss them as trivial. I would hope my thoughts and those that have been echoed by the other Asian-American posters would prove to validate their importance.
56. BDB said the following at 4:34 PM on Jun 3:
Daniel Kim (#55) wrote:
>>How many people are aware the most decorated military unit in our nation's history was an Asian-American unit (the 442nd regiment)? <<
I did. But that's because there was a Japanese internment camp in my home town. I grew up knowing that Americans of Japanese descent had volunteered to fight in WWII, and demonstrated their loyalty by performing brilliantly in combat in Europe.
57. Mike Theemling said the following at 8:06 PM on Jun 3:
Daniel Kim,
I'd like to offer a few words in response. They might not sufficiently address all your concerns, but perhaps they can help you understand other people's point of view.
One reason for the lack of awareness of Asian issues is that in the United States, the Asian population is roughly only 5% of the aggregate (unlike around 13% for Black and around 15% for Hispanic/Latino) and it is not growing by leaps and bounds. There might not be enough Asians or interactions with Asians around to generate enough discussion. Just as there are fewer Native Americans we do not hear as much from that community. It does not mean that Native American issues do not exist.
The other reason (and this is the politically incorrect one) is that Asians tend not to be as associated to the social ills of society (poverty, academic achievement, etc.) as other minorities (the "model minority" stereotype as it were). I know a number of exceptions can be cited for sure. But by in large, Asians are not normally associated with higher crime rates (although people who live in places like Los Angeles might disagree), or for being high school drop outs.
Part of it is true, and part of it, like all stereotypes, are mere perceptions (e.g. all Asians are good at math). One truth is in the realm of academic achievement. Asians do perform better on average, than other minorities. According to the National Center for Education Statistics (division of the Dept of Education), the Asian high school graduation rates from public schools are around 90%, where as Latinos are about 64% and Blacks 60%.
In fact, at colleges and universities, Asians often represent a larger percentage of the student population than the national percentage. So much so, that at some schools they actually turn away qualified Asians.
Thus, if you are a believer in having "proper representation" of race/gender in an organization, Asians are certainly not "underrepresented" and thus aren't given the same affirmative action status as other minorities.
Therefore, the argument goes, "Why all the fuss if from a socio-economic standpoint Asians are doing just fine? What issues would they be facing?". I believe that a number of readers may be thinking this yet are reluctant to admit it.
That is not to say that there aren't legitimate racial issues within the Asian population. The Japanese internment camps from WWII are evidence enough of that (strange how they didn't send those of German descent into camps). And I certainly agree that to belittle an issue such as racial struggle, saying your passion is misplaced, is insensitive. But this may explain why there is a lack of resonance from many of the replies.
Having said all of that, as an Asian (Korean in fact, just like yourself) growing up in this country since infanthood and who loves fried chicken and hot dogs as much as most, I would humbly suggest trying to pin down what issues you are most passionate about and why (more than just "anti-Asian" in general). Is it racial triangulation, cultural assimilation, the "model minority" stereotype, etc? Next, if you truly are interested in reconcilation, you can make your point without appearing like a finger-pointer. It can even be tinged with humor which tends to blunt emotional backlash.
For example, one might reply instead, "Yeah, those Japanese have a hard time with English. But give them credit. They are a pretty smart folk and at least they try to accomodate English speakers. How many of you can speak/write Japanese or have seen a public sign in an foreign language other than Spanish on the street? Be wary, before you know it, Mandarin Chinese may become the international language of choice."
Finally, I think it's important if you are involved with the Asian community to talk with them and find out what annoys them (not just you). And understand that yes, life isn't always fair (in fact I would daresay life is rarely fair) and that if we focus too much on any one issue (race, gender, denomination, etc.) we risk sabotaging the unity">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:10;%20ephesians%204:1-6;&version=31;">unity to which we are called in Christ.
Yes, I get mildly annoyed at times when strangers assume I know Korean (I really don't. Only Japanese and Mandarin Chinese ironically), or that it's assumed that I must know Tae Kwan Doe or some other martial art (which I also don't). But overall, I try to assimilate as best as I can without losing my identity and correcting any misgnomers that people may have about Asians.
Hope that helps. Would welcome any reply you had.
58. Shanka said the following at 3:40 PM on Jun 4:
I get what you're saying, Daniel. I don't think that it irks me much that whenever I see a crime show that the inmates are mostly minorities. I know that to be a true-to-life, but highly unfair (considering the high levels of racial profiling), representation. And I think that the parallel that you drew with this and language for Asian Americans was very valid. I'm glad that you are willing to stand up for justice, in whatever form that may take. I guess I was initially concerned that you were one of the types who got offended by every thing. Sorry for the judgment! And thanks for providing insight into the Asian (I hate that all are lumped into "Asian," but that's another topic to fight about!) American's plight. I have so many Korean, Filipino and Chinese friends, and I am glad to have more insight into their experience.
:)