Israel's 60th Birthday | Boundless Line

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

On May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation for the first time since Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in A.D. 70. After Rome took over, the Jews were dispersed -- spreading out to many different countries -- no longer connected by a common land. But after the Holocaust the United Nations voted to make Israel a nation once again -- the Jews would again have a place to belong.

In the 60 years since Israel has been a country, there have been many wars and almost no peace. As we all know, the fight over this tiny piece of land continues. When asked by Time Magazine where Israel would be at in 60 years, Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel wisely responded:

When it comes to Jewish history, it is dangerous to indulge in prophecy. Who would have predicted Abraham leaving the grandiose home of his father and his idols to discover that God alone ruled the world? And Moses, the man with a speech defect, an inspired spokesman for his people? And David the young shepherd, a warrior and king?

Had anyone predicted Hitler's crimes? Only three years after the saddest and cruelest chapter in Jewish history, a sovereign Jewish State was proclaimed: Was it predictable? Was its military victory over five well armed Arab armies predictable? And the Six-Day war? And the Yom Kippur war? And the influx of a million Jews from the Soviet Union? And the assassination, by a Jewish fanatic, of the legendary Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin?

To try to predict is ill-advised and dangerous.

When it's summed up that way, it does seem silly to try to predict what might happen with God's chosen people, although we do know that it all ends with a newly created Jerusalem. But in the meantime, the Bible calls us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Whatever your politics when it comes to Israel, the 60th anniversary of this small nation is a good time to remember to pray for peace within its walls.

Politics | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Matthew said the following at 4:23 PM on May 13:

hrm, my sensors are picking up another Rorschach post. Or perhaps just the best post that could be written without coming down on either side?

Whatever the case may be, prayer is the most important thing and I'm glad Denise emphasized that. I found that the book Light Force by Brother Andrew (the same guy who wrote God's Smuggler) was very helpful to me in understanding how to pray for the region, especially for my brothers and sisters in Christ.

2. Patricia C said the following at 5:53 PM on May 13:

I too think it's another Rorschach post but I have to point out one thing:

We (the Church) are God's chosen people. Modern Israel is not a God-fearing country anymore because they reject His Messiah. We are the true Israel. Rome destroyed Jerusalem's temple but God's word tells us the temple is now our bodies. Rome eliminated Jerusalem's means to sacrifice but God's word tells us that Jesus' sacrifice is now sufficient. We should pray for Israel, just like any other country, that they would be led to repentance. Only through repentance can peace that surpasses all understanding occur.

3. cn said the following at 6:00 PM on May 13:

Thank you so much, Denise, for bringing Israel to everyone's attention again!

As we pray for Israel, make sure to remember the Messianic Jews living in the Land, especially the believing young men and woman serving in the IDF.

4. Katherine said the following at 6:44 PM on May 13:

cn #3: Yes, and let us pray for all our brothers and sisters in Christ who live in the Holy Land, including the Arab Christian community, descended from among the first to hear the gospel and believe.

And, let us pray for the peace of all, both within Israel's walls and those outside of it, too.

5. Jessica said the following at 7:56 PM on May 13:

Great blog, Denise. What a wonderful land and people. As Christians we should continue to pray for God's chosen ones. Their fate is important to me and they hold a special place in my heart as a believer.
Thanks for your writing!
Jessica

6. Chris B. (VA) said the following at 8:04 PM on May 13:

In response to #2 (Patricia):

I must take exception with any notion that God has forever rejected Israel, that the Church has replaced Israel before God, or that Israel is not more important than any other nation.

Concerning specific prayer for Israel, we are told to, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May those who love you [Jerusalem] be secure" (Psalms 122:6).

Israel has not been rejected; on the contrary, Paul warns, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written" 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob'" (Romans 11:25-26).

I could greatly multiply the verses that show how close Israel is to God's heart, how God has made unconditional promises to Israel, and how Christians must have a heart for Jews; but, I will just say that God could no more reject and replace the Church than He could reject and replace Israel.

Praying for the peace of Israel comes straight from the Word, and should be on the hearts of all true Christians.

7. Jacob said the following at 9:53 PM on May 13:

Patricia and Chris are demonstrating why theology matters. Patricia is aruguing for a covenantal perspective while Chris is coming from a dispensational perspective.

I think Patricia is right, but it's a point of polite disagreement between many Christians.

8. Patricia C said the following at 10:16 PM on May 13:

But remember, what is Israel to Paul? I am not saying Israel as a whole has been rejected. Although reading my post again, I can see how that can be construed. Paul says, "You [remember he is speaking to primarily Gentiles in Rome] will say then , "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." (Romans 11:19) Paul is battling against the fallacy that God in a sense "changed His mind" and left Israel behind. That is not true; God is establishing what constitutes true Israel. Let's read on, "Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (vs 20) So true Israel are those who believe in Christ.

Continuing to read on... "For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree" (vs. 24).

What is this olive tree Paul speaks of? It must be Israel-- God's chosen people. We gentiles (I assume you're a gentile too) have been grafted into true Israel. Jewish people who believe on Christ will also be grafted into true Israel. This isn't a new idea as God has included gentiles into His family before. I think of Ruth as she was even included in Jesus' lineage.

Now we get to the verse you cited but now we've read the context: "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved..." Where are they coming into? Israel made up of believing Jews and Gentiles alike. Who is being hardened? Jews who do not believe in Christ so that they may make room for Gentiles who do. Paul demonstrates this by citing from the old testament, "Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." (vs 27)

Remember, as Paul stated in Romans 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants but, "through Isaac your descendants will be named." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." You and I, by the grace of God have been included as children of the promise. Jews, at least those who believe, will be grafted into the true and pure branch of Israel with us ensuring that ALL of Israel will be saved.

9. Patricia C said the following at 7:18 AM on May 14:

Remember, as Paul stated in Romans 9: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants but, "through Isaac your descendants will be named." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." You and I, by the grace of God have been included as children of the promise. Jews, at least those who believe, will be grafted into the true and pure branch of Israel with us ensuring that ALL of Israel will be saved.

10. Matt from DC said the following at 7:27 AM on May 14:

Chris B on #5 - well said.

Shalom aleichem.

11. Khalil said the following at 9:06 AM on May 14:

I take exception to comment #5, "Praying for the peace of Israel comes straight from the Word, and should be on the hearts of all true Christians."

I feel that is a pretty strong statement, to place a value on a person's faith with how it corresponds with their prayer life as directed towards Israel. I believe we should pray for them, for peace, for blessings, and that they truly turn their minds and hearts towards God. But we also need to pray and ask God to hold them accountable for their actions, domestically and internationally. It is the same prayer I would hold for the US (and any other nation...Iran, etc.) as well. I also highly recommend Light Force as a book to read.

12. Courtney said the following at 9:17 AM on May 14:

Thank you Chris B (#5), you took the words right out of my mouth! I used to be of the same mindset as Patricia (#2), until my dad rightly pointed to the same verses you have mentioned. I don't understand it...I don't claim to...but it is quite clear that God is no where near done with Israel. We, as Christians, do need to pray for the peace of Israel and for the peace of Jews.

And thank you Denise, for this post.

13. Denise Morris said the following at 9:36 AM on May 14:

Patricia,

I disagree with you as well. The Bible tells us Gentiles that we have been grafted into Israel's root. Israel has not been uprooted -- we have just been allowed in. As Romans 11:18 says, "Do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

14. Chris B. (VA) said the following at 11:22 AM on May 14:

Patricia,

Thank you for your thoughtful and scriptural response. We certainly must read the verses in context, both in the context of the surrounding verses, and in view of God's Word as a whole.

In context, we can see how Paul identifies Israel, speaking in reference to himself, "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1). Paul is part of Israel, because he is physically a descendent of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin--not based primiarly on believing in Christ. The promises to the people of Israel still apply, for, "This is what the Lord says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them'" (Jeremiah 33:25-26).

Returning to the context of Romans 11 (along with chapters nine and ten), we can see that God intends to restore his people Israel in Christ--He will not leave them behind. As we see first in vs.5, "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace," that remnant being chosen from Israel. And Paul continues the point later, "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! (Romans 11:12-13). Paul's heart for Israel--again the literal nation, not Israel redefined as Christians--comes through not only in words, but also in deeds as we read throughout the book of Acts, where the pattern was, "When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper" (Acts 13:5).

We can add to Paul's words the words of Jesus, who prophesied to His people Israel, "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matthew 23:39).

You are correct to point out the truth in Romans 9:6, that, "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." At all times throughout Jewish history as we see in the Bible, there were those jews who were disobedient, worshipped idols, and rejected God's covenant; however, a faithful remnant always remained and still remains today. Let us not forget that just as we gentiles are adopted as sons (Romans 8), we were adopted into God's family to which the Jews first belonged, as Paul says, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises" (Romans 9:3-4). The sonship, the glory, the covenants, and the promises still remain, for our Lord said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17). Again we see that Israel as a race, people, and nation is still relevant and that God still holds covenant promises for Israel in addition to--but not apart from--the promises that are ours in Christ (Yeshua the Messiah).

I must stress again that the Church has not replaced Israel in any sense. We are not the "new" Israel into which believing Jews must be ingrafted; in fact the opposite is true, for it is we who are ingrafted into the promise that came first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. Just as Paul says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).

15. Jim H. said the following at 11:47 AM on May 14:

I count myself among those who believe God has a plan for Israel in the final days. Besides the verses in Romans which have already been quoted and are very compelling, there are these verses in Isaiah
--------------------------
Isaiah 11:10-11 (ESV)
“In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush,from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.”
---------------------------

The thing that caught my eye was the phrase "second time." Of course the first time God brought a remnant of his people back was under Ezra and Nehemiah after the Babylonian captivity (Jerusalem was captured by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.). So this "second time" must be in the present age (after Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD). And we are seeing this as we speak. I was in Israel last Fall and the return of Jews is expanding beyond former Eastern Block countries (which has been widely reported for years). My Israeli host told me that the current wave of Jewish immigrants is from African countries.

Getting back to Isaiah 11, the context of this passage appears to be the 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ as indicated by the verses 11:5-9

-----------------------
Isaiah 11:5-9 (ESV)

"Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
--------------------------

This view of Israel's place in the last days lines up with dispensational beliefs, although I don't consider myself a dispensationalist. But after careful study of Revelation along with relevant Old Testament passages like this one, I have come to believe that this view is what the Bible teaches. But I am not dogmatic with that belief and could be convinced otherwise if the weight of the arguments and Biblical texts behind the arguments support an alternate view. (Eschatology is a very complex study, especially with all the symbolism, and I am a layperson who is unskilled with Greek and Hebrew). I should also say that I am not one of those people who obsesses over Eschatology and tries to read every news headline against the backdrop of Revelation and predict precisely when these events will occur. But I will say I believe we are in the right "season" for these events to occur. And I believe national Israel has a key role to play and will be restored as one of God's treasured possessions (alongside Spirital Israel - the Church).

16. Melissa said the following at 12:03 PM on May 14:

As a Jewish believer in Christ, I am going to have to thank you, Chris, for addressing the issue of the Jews and their having been "cut off" -- the Jews have never been cut off by God and are still His chosen people, despite their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah (which not all have, as I am a clear indication of).

Throughout the entire Old Testament the Jews reject God over and over and He always redeems them as a people and as a nation, and always sets aside a remnant. John tells us in Revelation 7:1-8 that God sets aside a remnant of the Jewish people to the very end -- the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow -- His heart for Israel and the Jewish people has not changed.

17. Jill A. said the following at 1:58 PM on May 14:

The fact that Israel was re-instated as a nation after so many centuries just a prophesied is truly one of the most spectacular miracles ever. To realize how recent that was and how God is still tending to His chosen people & His land is exciting. I hope to always remember to pray for Israel as we're reminded to do, and to keep a watchful eye on God's Hand in current events.

18. Tim said the following at 2:56 PM on May 14:

This is in response to the discussion between Patricia and Chris.

First off, let me say that I side with Patricia on this.

Second off, to accurately look at Romans 11 one must understand that chapter in the context of the argument that Paul began in chapter 9.

Romans 9:6-8:
"6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: 'THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.'

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

What does Paul mean when he says "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel?"

Is ethnic Israel more important than the church? If the church is not God's "chosen people" then why would it be composed of Jews and Gentiles? Do Jews who become Christians stop being God's chosen people?

Is not the church the bride of Christ? In the OT, Israel is metaphorically referred to as the wife of God. Yet, in the NT, the church is called the wife of God. Is God a polygamist? Is that what you would have him to be? Israel and the church cannot both be His bride.

Lastly, why has the modern day church (at least in America) changed its position pertaining to the church being the Israel of God? All the reformers and early church fathers held the position that the Church is the spiritual Israel.

Side Note: This post was written in haste (not a good idea, I know!).

19. PLH said the following at 3:17 PM on May 14:

I agree we should pray for the conversion of the Jews but we should also be careful not to attribute political and economic prosperity with spiritual renewal. Israel has been revived as a country but a large number of Jews are very secular and even atheists and agnostics.

Also, verses that discuss prophesy are notoriously difficult to interpret. My feeling is just that we should pray for the conversion of the Jews and leave the rest up to God.

20. Tim said the following at 3:25 PM on May 14:

Melissa #16 said:

"the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel."

Ahh.....but is that ethnic Israel in Rev 7:4-8?

If that is ethnic Israel then it is very strange indeed, for two tribes are missing from the list.

In the passage it is written that there are 12,000 from the tribes of LEVI and JOSEPH. What is wrong with this fact? Well, Levi is not one of the 12 tribes (it is a tribe, but it has no inheritance). Secondly, there is no such things as the tribe of Joseph. Joseph was broken up into 2 tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim.

So, in that passage Ephraim and Dan are left out. Without those two tribes the list is incomplete.

Now, some say that Ephraim and Dan are missing because those two tribes have become apostate. However, one cannot just decide to add Levi to the list. Secondly, since Joseph is broken up into Ephraim and Manasseh, and if Ephraim is apostate, would not the 12,000 of Joseph be derived from Manasseh? Why not just say that there are 24,000 from Manasseh?

So, I ask: does Revelation 7:4-8 truly refer to ethnic Israel? If so, why?

In Response to Denise #13:

Denise said: I disagree with you as well. The Bible tells us Gentiles that we have been grafted into Israel's root. Israel has not been uprooted -- we have just been allowed in. As Romans 11:18 says, "Do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

I would agree that we as Gentiles have been grafted into the root known as Israel. But, remember, it is the root that is Israel, not the branches. Therefore, all Jews who do not believe in Jesus are no longer a part of that root.

As Patricia talked about, the unbelieving branches have been CUT OFF. The believing branches are grafted IN. There are two types of believing branches: natural and wild. Melissa is an example of a natural branch who has been grafted back into Israel and I am an example of an unnatural branch who has been grafted in. However, we have both been grated into Israel (the root).

Lastly, Paul is quite right in Romans 11:1 that God has not rejected natural Israelites completely. Obviously this is true because most of the early church was Jewish! A remnant of ethnic Israelites are saved just like a remnant of Gentiles are saved. God desires to see as many Jews and Gentiles be saved as possible.

21. Jim H said the following at 4:02 PM on May 14:

Re: PLH, post #19.

The classic dispensationalist view of end times places the spiritual renewal of Israel in the Great Tribulation period and of course afterwards during the Millennial period (not now). But I agree with you on the following points:

1) Political and material prosperity do not always correlate with spiritual renewal. In fact, you could almost say there is a negative correlation between these two things at a national level if you look at history.

2. Interpretation of prophecy is notoriously difficult - that is why I am not dogmatic on my end-times beliefs and am very open to other interpretations.

3. Your bottom line summary is perfect. It is possible to speculate endlessly on some of the more obscure prophetic imagery, but the bottom line is that history is in God’s hands and our main job is to pray for and witness to the lost souls of all nations.

22. Jim H said the following at 4:28 PM on May 14:

Tim #18
I don't think anyone (especially me) is saying that national Israel equates to the Church or is a second bride of Christ. All I am saying is that God has not abandoned the promises He made to ethnic Israel and He will redeem them in mass numbers during the end times.

And Paul is definitely talking about ethnic Israel in chapter 11. Otherwise, you have Christians being grafted into other Christians?

The bottom line verse already mentioned by others is this and it could not be more clear:

Romans 11:25-27
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Since "Israel" and Gentiles are used in the same sentence, I don't see how anyone could apply a "spiritual" interpretation to this passage. Here we see clearly that God does have a plan for the redemption of ethnic Jews en masse at some point in the future. And thanks be to God that process has already been started! The pastor of finance at my church is a Messianic Jew.

23. Tim said the following at 4:57 PM on May 14:

I want add something pertaining to what I said in my #18 post.

I said, "Is God a polygamist? Is that what you would have him to be?"

I wish there was an edit button on posts, but alas, there is not. In retrospect, this sounds a little harsh and attacking. I did not intend it to be this way. I was simply trying to make a point and make people think. I hope that nobody feels like I was personally attacking them. I am simply attacking a theology that I think could be wrong.

24. Matthew said the following at 5:19 PM on May 14:

I'm curious as to how these passages that everyone is citing apply to the nation-state of Israel as we know it today. Didn't God already bring back the Jews to their homeland and then send the Messiah as He promised throughout the Old Testament? Even though I see Jewish believers as my "older brothers" in the faith and recognize the importance they have in history, I don't see how the Bible verses mentioned can be brought to bear on the current nation-state of Israel.

If they can be, what is Israel justified in doing to claim its land, and what land are they justified to claim?

25. cn said the following at 6:46 PM on May 14:

Patricia,

I disagree with you also. As Denise mentioned, the bible does tell us that Gentiles are grafted to Israel. One thing the bible DOESN'T tell us is that we in anyway REPLACE Israel. This is a really important concept to grasp, because with out it, we lose context for the calling of the church.

Its significant to note that the new believers were NEVER called "new Israel" or "True Israel" any where in the bible. Instead, the believers were called the Ekklesia, which is the greek word for "Church." If you look it up in your Strong's concordance, you can find that this word is a compound of "Ek," meaning "out of" and "Kaleo," meaning "to call by name." To put it together, I understand church to pertain to an assembly of people who are called out by the name of Jesus - Yeshua.

This calling out is different from the internal ministry of Israel, who's holiness was established externally through the law and family orgin.

Also, Ekklesia is unique in that this was the first time in history that there was a spiritual unity between Jews and Gentiles. Ephesian 3:6 says:

"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

Through Jesus, Jews and Gentiles form one new man. One new body with a new calling, function and purpose.

Not only is the idea that the church is the "new Israel" non-biblical terminology, it also denies the distinct roles each group plays in showing God's heart and neglects the importance of fellowship between Jews and Gentiles with God the Father through Jesus. No where does it state that this new body is the new chosen people, nor that we are Israel. Instead the bible uses terminology such as "heirs together" or "grafted into."

In Romans 11:28 The Holy Spirit through Paul notes:

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

The covenant God made with their fore fathers still stands in an irrevocable way. They are irreplaceable in His heart.

26. Lorry said the following at 10:51 PM on May 14:

This is a great blog. G-d commands us to pray for Jerusalem, the city of Peace, and to pray for Israel. And we must never forget.
On this, their 60th anniversary, as Israel was once again hit by rocket fire, it is fitting to remember that G-d alone keeps Israel. And they are eternal. "He that keepeth Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps."
Shalom

27. Patricia C said the following at 11:09 PM on May 14:

I'm a bit confused. Does anyone actually think when I say "Church" I mean purely Gentiles? I've stated throughout my response that the Church is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike. Our unifying factor is belief in Christ. If you are a believing Jew, you are a member of the Church. God's Israel is the Church and the Church is God's Israel... made up of believing Jews and Gentiles alike, I'll emphasize again. If you are an unbelieving Jew, you have been cast out... regardless of your ethnic status.

And cn, read my post again, I never said we replace Israel. I never said the new body is the new chosen people. Israel has always meant those who believe in the Messiah. It's never been about purely ethnic Israel. Otherwise, how would gentiles like Ruth and Rahab become a part of the covenant promise? Furthermore, Jesus states that the Pharisees are not children of God; they are in fact children of the devil (John 8:44). How could Jesus say this when the Pharisees were ethnic Israel, were they not? He says this because the Children of God are those who "hear His word" and do it. We are indeed "together" and "one" so why are we separating believing Jews from believing Gentiles? Was Paul's letter to the Galatians in vain? As Paul says in Philippians 3:3 "We are the true circumcision." Indeed, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him." (Romans 10:22). The key thing to see there is "call upon Him." God will preserve a remnant of Jews in His covenant over time not by their flesh but by faith. Paul states in Romans 11:7 "Nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but "through Issac your descendants will be named.' That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." I shared that verse before but I can't stress enough its importance in demonstrating that it is not the flesh by which ethnic Israel can claim their inheritance but through faith in Christ.... just like the Gentiles.

28. Lorry said the following at 11:17 PM on May 14:

Wow! Some interesting stuff. But I have to disagree with most on this site. I believe it is incorrect for people to assume that the "church" is the "bride." Or the chosen ones. G-d chose Abraham, then Isaac, and then Jacob. The promise came down through that line. And just like the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with the Children of Israel, and just like Ruth who told Naomi that where Naomi went,she would go and Naomi's G-d would be her G-d, that is what true believers need to do. They need to join themselves to the ones who teach Torah. Maybe not all Jews recognize that Yeshua is Messiah. That isn't up to us. Just as Joseph revealed himself to his brothers who didn't recognize him, when the time was right, so will Yeshua reveal Himself to His brothers when the time is right. In the meantime, they are teaching the way. They are teaching Torah. They recognize the way but don't recognize the "face" of Torah. G-d provided a way for us as well...and that is through the Torah. The first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible some call the "Old" Testament. The Children of Israel were the vehicle He used to bring that to us. And they have. The Torah DEFINES sin and established G-d's people in the earth. In the "New" Testament, we find in the first chapter of John that "Jesus is the Word of G-d made flesh." He was the walking, talking, "Word of G-d." And what was that? There was no "new" testament to refer to....it was only the "Old." And that has to be remembered. We also know that Yeshua didn't sin which means he didn't ever transgrass Torah. Because that is what SIN is. So when we see the verse in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that says: All scripture is given by the inspiration of G-d and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS that the man of G-d may be PERFECT and thoroughly furnished unto all good works." He could NOT have been refering to a New Testament because there wasn't one. He was talking about the Hebrew Scriptures....the "Old" Testament. Because he was a Jew and he believed and taught Torah.
G-d chose Israel to be a "nation of priests to the nations." That is still their mission. And one day soon, they will be established in their lands....ALL OF THEIR LANDS that G-d gave them from the beginning, and they will be to us a "nation of priests." G-d's word is eternal. Every word. Nothing can be changed. The Torah/Yeshua/Jesus will be their guide.
The "New" Testament writers were observant Jews. And they spoke like observant Jews. But if you don't know anything about Judaism, you can't fully understand the New Testament. They thought like men who understood Torah, and talked like men who understood Torah, and they believed Torah. To understand properly.....you need to learn Torah.
Shalom

29. Patricia C said the following at 11:36 PM on May 14:

And another point to add to cn's last quote. You mention God's covenant with the Jew's forefathers This is true. But it is not out of innate goodness of Israel or even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Remember what He said to the Israelites in Deuteronomy, "The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers..." (vs 7:7-8) and "Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousand generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments." Therefore, those who were once enemies of God are brought back through saving faith (natural branches grafted in again) and called beloved. They are beloved not out of their own flesh but because God is faithful and keeps His covenant and has promised to preserve over time a remnant of ethnic Israel.

30. PLH said the following at 6:15 AM on May 15:

Another issue often exists in interpreting these passages is fact the fact that most Christians overlook the almost 2,000 years of Jewish history between the destruction of the temple and the establishment of Israel. Sure, the NT writers were Jewish as was Jesus but those Jews how did not become Christians have developed significantly different understandings (meaning there are multiple and competing sects of Judaism today with vastly differently interpretations of the Torah) of the OT.

Also, I would just like to propose one question. We are going to look at the establishment of Israel as a sign of God's faithfulness to Israel, then how are we to understand the Holocaust? Was God not faithful to the Jews then? These two events are closely linked and cannot be separated.

31. IMO said the following at 8:18 AM on May 15:

Lorry,
I am of Jewish background. I like your passion and agree on some points you make. But there are a couple of things that trouble me about your post.

The first being how you place more emphasis on the Old Testament and not give the New Testament equal footing. Yes it's usually backwards and people put more emphasis on the New Testament but the OT and NT form God's Word together.

Also you are putting a stumbling block for people to get to Christ....
You say, "To understand properly.....you need to learn Torah."
Guess what? That's your command, not the command of Jesus Christ. And He calls us to be like children when it comes to faith. Yes it is very interesting and edifying to really learn about the OT... but your post seems to be going over the edge.

If you read the New Testament, you will know that Christ refers to the Church as the bride. Maybe you don't know who The Church is. Maybe that's where the problem lies.

But the biggest thing again I want to reiterate is the stumbling block you are causing with your stringent OT beliefs....seriously, lead people to Christ...not the OT.
Also not all NT writers were Jewish. And what about the "ignorant" fishermen that followed Jesus? They probably weren't well-versed in the Torah..

32. Jill A. said the following at 9:14 AM on May 15:

God had also foretold the harsh discipline that would befall His Chosen. God is faithful to His Word. He has chosen the Jews & Israel as His method to reveal Himself to the world. He will do just as He said He would. Keep your eyes on Israel.

33. Jim H said the following at 9:45 AM on May 15:

PLH, post 30.

I will not dare to speculate on why God allowed the Holocaust to occur. But I will speak in general terms. Just because God allows temporary periods of judgment does not mean He has permanently abandoned his people. You see this cycle over and over in the Old Testament: God blesses the Israelites, they sin, God judges them (sometimes severely) they repent, God blesses them again and the cycle repeats.

The siege of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. was an absolutely horrific event. There was cannibalism in the starving city with mothers eating their children among many other horrors. Yet God did not totally abandon His people. He brought a remnant back from captivity in Babylon under Ezra and Nehemiah and the walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt.

So despite these periods of often very harsh Judgments, God does not abandon His people and He will fulfill the promises He made to Abraham. I firmly believe there will be a great Spiritual Awakening of ethnic Jews in the end times and I believe this process has already started.

34. Denise Morris said the following at 9:48 AM on May 15:

IMO,

I just wanted to make one comment about your post -- I am very doubtful that the fisherman Jesus chose were ignorant of Torah. Everyone in Jesus' community new Torah. Everyone.

I would encourage reading "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin R. Wilson. It gives some great background about the Jews in the time of Jesus.

35. Denise Morris said the following at 9:50 AM on May 15:

Also, which of the NT writers wasn't Jewish?

36. Tim said the following at 10:02 AM on May 15:

Well, this surely has become an interesting conversation! However, I think we all can debate this topic until we are blue in the face, but nobody will change their position. All that really matters is that the Lord Jesus is coming again and the details that surround that will all be worked out.

But, I would like to get back to the original topic concerning support for the state of Israel.

What bothers me is how people like Tim LaHaye and others support Israel no matter what they do. Israel could massacre a Palestinian village(like they have done) for no reason and Tim LaHaye and others would turn a blind eye. Now, I believe that both Israel and Palestine are not innocent in the whole conflict, but some of the horrible acts committed by Israeli forces have been against some of our Christian brethren in Palestine.

I have read interviews with Christian Palestinians who are greatly hurt that their Christian brothers in America support Israel more than them. They are saddened that American Christians do not get outraged when Israel commits horrible acts against them.

We must be careful that our support for Israel does not turn into the creed that "Israel can do no wrong."

37. steph said the following at 10:24 AM on May 15:

Thanks, Tim, for saying what I was thinking. It is important to remember the unfortunate (major understatement) fact that people were destroyed and displaced to make way for the present state of Israel.

If you're looking for some good reading that will open your eyes to "the other side" check out Elias Chacour. As a Palestinian Christian who watched his fathers' land be torn away, he has some first hand experience to share. But amazingly he is forgiving, loving, and avidly seeking reconciliation. Good stuff.

38. Lorry said the following at 10:35 AM on May 15:

Hi IMO,
I appreciate your comments and the fact that you are a Jewish believer in Messiah. And you would be correct in your statement that I put more emphasis on the "Old" Testament than the new.
I am your polar opposite. I grew up Southern Baptist and understand fully every word you are saying and why. When I took Torah in as my guide for living that G-d Himself established, I realized for the first time why Yeshua said, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." G-d's laws are freedom....and just as a child first learns to babble, then use single words, and finally use full sentences, so that is how we learn Torah. Bit by bit, applying as we learn, and growing as we apply. Just as a child. Beginning at the beginning. Isn't that the way your learn how to "follow Christ"? Applying as you learn?
When I first started studying this, I heard someone say that when Christians heard the word "Torah" or "Law", they immediately backed off...stood back. But when Jews heard the Word "Torah,", they would sigh....a sigh of relief. Of rest.
Jesus taught Torah. Remember what He said in Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 1Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
This passage goes on to say that anyone who breaks even the least of these.......Jesus came to fulfill this Law....to LIVE it. And He is our example.
I understand where you are coming from. I have been on that side. But true freedom comes from following Torah. Jesus died for when we sinned against G-d's law.
Take Care

39. Lorry said the following at 10:38 AM on May 15:

Also IMO,
I also don't believe the fishermen were ignorant. I am not sure where that would come from. The Jews at that time would have known Torah.

Also, my email address is:
im38@juno.com if you would like to continue this conversation so that we don't interrupt the flow of this topic.

40. IMO said the following at 11:09 AM on May 15:

When I write on the fly, I may get a few things wrong. I APOLOGIZE.

Please note the " " when I wrote the word ignorant. Ignorant in the sense they weren't like the Pharisees or other huge religious leaders...I didn't realize I had to explain it further.

John 17:3, “And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.”

“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

As long as we bring glory to God, our approach can be different and still acceptable.

41. PLH said the following at 11:17 AM on May 15:

Jim H, I agree that periods of judgement do not mean God has abandoned Israel. I just think the picture is more complex than many evangelicals acknowledge in terms of Jewish history. I agree we should pray for the salvation of Israel, but, as Tim points out, that doesn't mean we should unilaterally support Israel's political expansion.

42. Lorry said the following at 11:24 AM on May 15:

Tim,
I would have to disagree with you. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But G-d is. And He chose Israel. The Palestinians have their place in the Arab world. G-d chose to give the land of Israel to the Jewish people. They have a G-d given right to the land and trying to take that away is to find ourselves fighting against G-d Himself. The fact that Israel even exists is a testament to the fact that G-d exists. Unfortunately many Palestinians seem to be in the middle but there can be no question that the land belongs to Israel. And just as G-d established Israel in the beginning...and many times through war, G-d will establish them again. And the world will be better for it.

43. Tom Neven said the following at 11:32 AM on May 15:

Denise (#35)

Some believe Luke (writer of the gospel bearing his name and Acts) was a gentile.

The argument for this is not definitive, though.

44. Jim H said the following at 11:53 AM on May 15:

PLH 41.
There are lots of different threads of thought going on in this "thread." The only point I was addressing is the fact that temporal judgment does not necessarily equate to permanent rejection. I was trying to respond to your question on the Holocaust.

The subject of the "goodness" of the present nation of Israel is an entirely different topic. While I generally support Israel, I would never make the leap that everything they do is right. In fact, Israel can sometimes be very ruthless and I object to some of the things they have done.

45. PLH said the following at 12:02 PM on May 15:

Larry, I have to disagree that God ordains ethnic Jews to have the Holy Land. The Bible has many verses talking about the scattering of the Jewish people. The Jews were made a light to prepare the way for Jesus, the Messiah. God promised the world salvation through the Jews but the course of human and biblical history has been forever altered because of the Messiah. The Palestinians have a right to basic human rights-right of housing and right to earn a living in a place they've been living for thousands of years.

46. IMO said the following at 12:19 PM on May 15:

LOrry #42 I completely agree with you! :)

47. PLH said the following at 12:23 PM on May 15:

Jim H-Agreed. I didn't necessarily mean you but often it seems that publicly some evangelical leaders turn a blind eye to what Israel does when it exercises its military power.

48. Jim H. said the following at 12:26 PM on May 15:

PLH 45.
Regarding Jews and the Holy Land, where in Scripture was this everlasting promise God made to Abraham abrogated?

Genesis 17:8 (ESV)
And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

49. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:33 PM on May 15:

Denise,

It is theorized that Luke was not a Jew. But other than him, the general consensus is that all the other writers were Jews.

50. Patricia C said the following at 1:21 PM on May 15:

Lorry, you are not seriously implying that Gentiles must follow the Torah in order to be considered righteous in God's eyes. Are you implying that Gentile men should be circumcised too? Because I will tell you that Paul strongly disagrees. Read Galatians again is all I can tell you. A man is not justified through works of the Law but through faith in Christ (Gal 2:16). Christ is not only our example, He is our righteousness that we (Jews and Gentiles alike) claim by faith. You are treading dangerous ground, Lorry.

51. Lorry said the following at 3:12 PM on May 15:

I actually am suggesting that Jews and Gentiles alike follow Torah. I believe that is what He taught and that is certainly how he lived.

52. Nicole said the following at 5:25 PM on May 15:

If you really understand how Israel became a nation (this time) I think there can be little doubt that this is still God's chosen people and his chosen place for them to be.
They were a tiny army with little resources in May 1948, the British army (minus a few who renounced their citizenship because their belief in the nation of Israel) left them, and very shortly after the city key was handed over every Arab country surrounding them attacked, with much larger armies and resources (that had been built up during WWII by the Nazi army), and yet Israel prevailed.

It's an incredible history how Israel has prevailed over and over again, they have not only survived but thrived over the past 60 years. This could only be done with God's guiding hand upon them.

I think we should be careful how much of a "blind eye" we turn toward what Israel does against the Palestinians, but we also have to see what Israel has been through. I don't think the country wants to live at war with it's neighbors but rather has been forced into that role.

I think we should pray for BOTH Israel and Palestine. Both countries have believers and non-believers who are in constant danger.

53. cn said the following at 6:01 PM on May 15:

Tim #36,

I agree that we should not assume Israel's government is incapable of doing wrong; however, I find your stance, "Israel could massacre a Palestinian village(like they have done) for no reason," to be misguided.

First of all, are you aware of how the Jews came to re-occupy the Land of Israel through out the Zionists movements of the 20th Century? If not, I suggest investigating the honesty behind the movement. Often Zionist organizations would pay three times what the land was worth, buying it more than fairly from the Palestinians. There's much more too it than that, but you can investigate this concept in more depth on your own, if you like.

Next, are you aware of the daily terror attacks on Israel from Palestinians? Did you know that they regularly bomb schools and homes? Here's a list stating names and circumstances surrounding people who have been killed by Palestinians since 2000:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism
-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since
+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism
+sinc.htm

Israeli attacks on Palestinian territories are hardly "for no reason."

Lastly, I do want to note that I agree with you that we need to support Palestinian Christians. In supporting them in their own personal relationships with the Lord, we need to encourage them in understanding God's heart for Israel, teach against antisemitism, and encourage reconciliation between both peoples. Also, many Palestinian churches still use the name Allah. I challenge this because Allah represents a middle eastern moon god, who's character in the Koran is dramatically different from the God of Israel represented in the Old and New Testaments. Its a greater statement than simply being an Arabic word for God. I'm sure many will disagree, but I'm throwing it out there because I think its something we need to prayerfully consider. :)

54. cn said the following at 7:09 PM on May 15:

Patricia (# 27 and 29),

I have read your post and firstly would like to note that you clearly state "We (the Church) are God's chosen people." (see #2) Maybe you are unaware, but this idea, that the church is the "True Israel" and or "the chosen people" subscribes to "Replacement Theology." I recognize that you never specifically used the word "replace", but the ideas you are stating are the embodiment of this doctrine. That is why I used this term.

My purpose for blogging about Ekklesia is to point out that "Church" and "Israel" are never used inter-changably in the NT, and "church" is never used in the OT. Its taking very large liberties with the Word of God to believe they can be switched. One of the primary ideas of Replacement Theology is that any where "Israel" is found in the bible, it can be replaced with the word "Church" for true meaning. This is a dangerous way of looking a the word of God.

Also, I'd like to reiterate my point that these two bodies are two separate groups, each given a distinct role in how the Lord has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind. When God created Eve, she was not the "New Adam." She was Eve. God first created Israel and through Israel's Messiah, the church was born. Not to be a new and better Israel, but to be a new thing.

As for your thoughts on Ruth and Rahab, remember the cry of Ruth's heart was:

"Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God." Ruth 1:16 NASB

Ruth not only joined herself to the God of Israel, but also the people of Israel. She was joining the Jewish Olive Tree. ;)

Similarly, Rahab joined the people of Israel after righteously hiding the spys.

" 25However, (A)Rahab the harlot and her father's household and all she had, Joshua spared; and she has lived in the midst of Israel to this day, for (B)she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho." Joshua 6:25 NASB.

We need to remember that when we come into the Kingdom of God, we do so through the Jewish Messiah. In knowing Jesus, we are joining in an inheritance first promised to the Jewish people, just as Ruth and Rahab joined Israel and received a blessed inheritance for doing so.

I greatly appreciate your posts. They are well thought through and show a knowledge of scripture. I hope that you will not receive my disagreement as a personal attack in any way! :)

I'm sorry that I'm unable to address some of your other comments at the moment. Homework interferes! I'll do what I can to offer some thoughts later! Know that I read them and appreciate your views.

55. Matthew said the following at 8:12 PM on May 15:

cn,

Arab Christians were using the word "Allah" to describe the triune God of the Bible before the English word "God" was invented, thus, I think it's quite silly to suggest that Arab Christians should stop using the word "Allah". Have you ever spent any time in the Middle East, studied the Arabic language, read an Arabic Bible, or worshipped with Arab believers? If not, I would respectfully suggest that you are speaking on a subject on which you have very little personal experience.

56. renee said the following at 8:48 PM on May 15:

IF a Jew rejects Christ he will not go to heaven but if a Muslum accepts Christ he will go to heaven. So what's important is that all are loved by God and the only why for any of us to be saved is through repentence and believeing in Christ. God loves all and we need to pray for all. The wadges of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life and this applies to all.

57. Patricia C said the following at 8:57 PM on May 15:

Once again, Gentiles have not replaced Israel. The Church is made up Jews and Gentiles alike. I am not arguing for replacement but rather expansion. God has expanded the benefits of inheritance to believing Gentiles so that wild and natural branches (believing Jews) will be grafted into pure root of Israel. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. I suggest you read my posts again.

58. Leah said the following at 5:36 AM on May 16:

Good post.

However, I hope people like Chris B are not implying that all of Israel is saved, and that we as Christians must be grafted into *that* group of people. Because NOT all of Israel is saved. In fact, I'd venture that most of them are not, because most of Israel are Jews, who deny Jesus is the Messiah (a key factor in being a Christian, and being saved!) Note that I am not denying the existence of Messianic Jews- I have a friend who is a Messianic Jew, and she is most certainly saved- and I am not denying that Israel is/was God's chosen people, or that Christians have been grafted into that people.

In reference to the Israelite/Jewish debates going on here, let me throw another spanner in the works: I can't stand people who take literally the concept that all Israelis will return to Jerusalem before the end of the world, and then go so far as to work to return Jews to Jerusalem so that the end of the world will come faster!

Nicole- I'll point out that when the British Army left Israel, they did not leave them unarmed. They left them with all sorts of artillery and weapons. (And really, you can't expect Britain to baby-sit Israel forever).

And ARRGH! Can people please write "God" and not "G-d"?? We don't need to be terrified of spelling God's name wrong (I presume this is what prompts you to write his name that way) like the Israelites were. He is our Lord and Father and we are welcome to call him "God".

59. Shaun Kramm said the following at 5:42 AM on May 16:

Sadly it is not a happy 60th anniversary. Since we also commemorate the bloodshed of thousands of people who were pushed from their homes and forced into refugee camps. While it was a western reward for the Jews after the holocaust, its creation would start the fuel to Arab and Muslim distrust and despise of the west. If only Israel were a true democracy formed in moral circumstances, could we rightly celebrate. Only Jews can immigrate to Israel, only Jews can purchase land, it has a religious symbol on its flag so it is not representative of all people, and it gets away without respecting UN resolutions. We bombed Iraq for that.

60. Tim said the following at 10:47 AM on May 16:

Cn #53,

Have you ever heard of the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre? The Israeli army massacred an entire village of 250 men, women, and children. Hooray for the Zionists!

I am well aware of the Zionist and Christian Zionists movement.

cn said: "I have read your post and firstly would like to note that you clearly state "We (the Church) are God's chosen people." (see #2)"

What does Peter call us [Christians] in 1 Peter 2:9?

Amplified Bible: "9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God's] own [a]purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."

NASB: "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you (E)out of darkness into His marvelous light;"

And what does verse 10 say?

"for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY."

So I ask: who are God's people?

Furthermore, everyone keeps mentioning the promises made to Abraham and his people. But who are Abraham's heirs?

Gal 3:29

"9And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Therefore, if any Jew rejects Jesus, are they truly Abraham's descendants and thus heirs according to the promise? Remember, "the righteous shall live by faith."

cn said: "Ruth not only joined herself to the God of Israel, but also the people of Israel. She was joining the Jewish Olive Tree. ;)"

Yes, yes! I agree completely! Ruth, just like us Gentiles, was joined to the holy root of Israel. But, remember, it is the ROOT THAT IS HOLY, not the branches. As many have already mentioned, in Romans 11 Paul makes very clear that any natural branches who reject Christ are CUT OFF from that root. Paul also makes clear that any wild branches can be grafted IN.

Now, you called what Patricia and I have said "replacement theology." However, those who adhere to this theology more accurately call it "fulfillment theology." Why? Because we do not say that the church replaces Israel, but that the church is an expansion or fulfillment of true Israel. We believe that God has always had ONE PEOPLE, those whom He foreknew. That is the beauty of the church; it is composed of Jews and Gentiles who come together in one body to be God's people.

Lastly, I would to say that this conversation has been fascinating and challenging.

61. Lorry said the following at 11:20 AM on May 16:

I'm sorry you feel that way Shaun. Israel's 60th anniversary is truly a blessing for the whole world. And the fact that she exists is a testament to the existence of G-d Himself. I know that the mainstream story is to believe that the Arab people were pushed from their homes, but if we read the history, it will show that they left of their own accord. They left because the Arabs were planning to attack Israel, and felt it would be an easy job. And they were told that once Israel was destroyed, they could return to their homes. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that G-d preserves Israel and that Israel would win against all odds.
Rejoicing over Israel's 60th is the absolute right thing to do. Helping them and standing with them is the absolute right thing to do. So goes Israel......so goes the rest of the World. We always have to remember that...."He that keepeth Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps."
Next year....in Jerusalem!!

62. Ted Slater said the following at 11:37 AM on May 16:

Tim,

Let me be blunt: Your description of the so-called "Deir Yassin massacre" is wrong in many ways, and consistent with what anti-Semitic propagandists have been promoting.

Muslims always exaggerate the number of people killed, in efforts to manipulate PR and promote their causes. The truth is that fewer than 120 were killed in the incident. Still a lot, but not 250.

Second, the town had at least 750 residents, not 250.

You also fail to mention that the residents of Deir Yassin were heavily armed, and were fighting against the Jewish forces. These heavily-armed "Palestinians" were accompanied by heavily-armed soldiers from other countries, including Iraq. It was a hard-fought battle, not a slaughter.

It is tragic when any civilians are killed. Something about women and children being killed is especially painful. It's true that some innocents were killed at Deir Yassin. But what many are promoting as truth about what happened there is in fact pro-Muslim/anti-Israel myth. Many of the so-called "massacres" by Israelis are likewise merely myth. Thank God we don't have to take the word of Muslim propagandists, but can do our own research (google is your friend) to discover the whole truth.

Being a savage doesn't necessarily make someone noble. We shouldn't by default see the Muslims as noble, and the Israelis as ignoble "Zionists."

63. Tim said the following at 12:27 PM on May 16:

Ted,

My description of the Deir Yassin massacre came from Brother Andrew. I am not sure if you have heard of him (I doubt you have not, though).

I am not sure who Brother Andrew's sources were or whose yours were. Obviously, one of you is wrong and I am no judge to say who.

Also, if you read my previous posts you will see that I emphatically believe that neither the Israelis or the Palestinians are innocent in the whole conflict. Both have done wrong. I am just trying to say that a lot of Christians tend to make Palestine the bad guys and Israel the good guys.

64. Tim said the following at 12:58 PM on May 16:

Ted,

I would like to apologize to you. I have checked out numerous sources and the 120 dead figure is correct.

65. Ted Slater said the following at 1:00 PM on May 16:

Tim et al.,

I appreciate your humility. I have a ways to grow in humility....

For what it's worth, I've come to assume that any "massacre" committed by the Israelis is a myth -- with perhaps a few truths embedded to increase its believability -- promoted by those who hate Israel. A good number of people believe these stories because they haven't heard "the other side." In any case, thus far, my assumptions about these myths have never been wrong.

Yes, Israelis are sinners, just like me. They've done things to aggravate the Arabs living near them, and are sometimes callous to their struggle. They've done things to hinder the gospel, as well, which is obviously disturbing. They are not without sin.

But we must not blame Israel for where the so-called "Palestinians" find themselves. Step one might be for them to build a hospital rather than a bomb-manufacturing facility. For them to come to respect truth rather than revel in myths and deceptions and outright lies.

Of course, it's difficult for them not to lie when the founder of their religion was inspired by the Father of Lies.

I better leave it at that.

66. Matthew said the following at 1:20 PM on May 16:

Ted (#62),

No one is asking us to see the Israelis as "ignoble" and the Muslims as "noble." Everyone in this situation has blood on their hands. What is troubling to some of thus, though, is how people seem to be using God's Word to imply that Israel is justified in every attack, whether there are civilians killed or terrorists. The actions of the Palestinian and other Arab terrorists are despicable, however, isn't shelling a house with kids inside just as despicable? It is not a myth that the Israeli army has killed plenty of civilians in its struggle to defend itself.

We are not anti-Semitic by any means, but we are merely disturbed by the fact that it seems that no conservative evangelical group can ever bring itself to call Israel to account for its crimes.

67. Lorry said the following at 1:26 PM on May 16:

Hi Tim#60:
I actually do believe that Peter was speaking to the Jewish believers in Messiah in Anatolia. There was a huge Jewish population there and the fact that he addresses them and says what he does, in my eyes, proves it.
First they were NOT a people. G-d called Abraham out and told him to go a land that He would show him and G-d promised to make him a great nation. This is when the Jewish people began. So first they weren't a people, and then they were. He made them a people and he called them to be a "Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation." Exodus 19:6. I believe Peter, being a Jew himself, was just quoting scripture.
im38@juno.com

68. Jo said the following at 1:50 PM on May 16:

Tom Neven, Mike Theemling...

I have always been under the impression that Luke was, definitely, a Gentile. I wasn't aware there was any doubt... Could you guys elaborate a little??

69. Tom Neven said the following at 2:02 PM on May 16:

Jo (#68)

Here's a good link laying out the case for and against Luke's being a Gentile.

70. Ted Slater said the following at 2:07 PM on May 16:

Matthew -- the "Beit Hanoun April 2008 incident" is also a myth, which is easily determined by simply googling that phrase.

The civilian deaths were caused by explosives that "Palestinian" militants nearby were carrying. The IDF fired a missile at these militants, and their explosives consequently ignited, killing the civilians who were eating breakfast in their home 10 feet away. Very tragic. But not the fault of the Israelis. This sequence of events is clearly seen in video footage of the attack.

Again, I find it remarkable how effective the "Palestinian" lies are, and how many people continue to take their words at face value. After so many lies, you'd think people would begin to suspect them of being ... liars.

71. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:49 PM on May 16:

This is an interesting post...

I'm surprised it took me so long to actually start reading it...

I will pray for peace in Israel - however, I'm firmly of the opinion that it will never happen. Given Israel's history and the creation of Israel, I simply don't think it should've happened. I think it was nice and all, but every other reforming of Israel was to re-establish God's covenant with them...meaning giving them access to worship him in the temple. The Jews won't be rebuilding that temple under good circumstances...when it is rebuilt, I'd start marking your calendars for the end of the world. That's honestly the only sign I'm looking for for End Times =p

But anyway, I don't have anything against Jews...just my personal feelings regarding their history =p

I'm more interested in the discussion between IMO and Lorry...

IMO, I'm definitly with Lorry on this one. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant between Israel and God. To fully understand what the NEW TESTAMENT means, you need to fully understand the OLD Testament...as the new is the fulfillment of the old. However, I don't think full understanding is necessary for salvation =p It just makes learning about your faith so much deeper and more interesting =p

I believe Israel was the chosen people, set in a strategic location so that the events that happened within Israel could be witnessed by the world. It was so tiny and yet such a big player in world history...simply because it occupied the most strategic land in the Middle East.

The events that happened there were a collection of "hard-nosed" laws that not one person could possibly follow all of them. People who broke those laws were redeemed by sacrificial lamb's blood every passover that went through one of the oddest rituals people around had ever seen...and yet it mirrors exactly what Christ did on the cross...and you see that parallel because the Jews PRACTICED passover to the 'T' EVERY YEAR since leaving Egypt. The book of Job outlines very concisely exactly what the OT is all about...and what the nation of Israel as the chosen people is all about - that no matter how perfect you are, you can never be good enough and are in dire need of an intercessor - and the new testament is our intercessor. Jesus is the new testament. And the Old Testament was the Temple.

72. Nicole said the following at 3:38 PM on May 16:

To bring a lighter note to the content of this post. Israel is number one on my list of foreign countries to visit - dangerous or not. Don't know when I'll go, but I'm totally going there one day! Anyone else?

73. Matthew said the following at 3:41 PM on May 16:

Ted (#70),

In Beit Hanoun, the Israelis were still responsible for the family's death because they fired the missile that set off the explosives-- in this case, probably just as responsible as the terrorists. They even apologized for it. I'm sorry that I didn't research that incident more, but it doesn't absolve the Israelis of blame. I looked up the Qibya massacre and found that even the U.S. condemned it; I would genuinely appreciate it if you had an alternate explanation to show how this was a "myth."

People take Palestinian "lies" at face value because no one likes it when civilians die, and the Israeli military kills civilians quite often. This is partly their fault and partly the fault of the terrorists who choose to fight in heavily populated areas. It often feels like Israel's "right to exist" is justified by the Bible and thus any action that the Israelis take to defend themselves is also justified. This I do not understand. You mentioned in your post the faults you see with the Israelis; shouldn't they be cause for us to stop and ponder our unflagging support for them? Shouldn't our Christian concern for human life and human rights cause us to hold Israel to account for its human-right violations as much as we condemn the Palestinians for their abhorrent use of suicide bombings and human shields? Being a professional military, even, ought the Israelis be held to a higher standard?

Again, I'll recommend the book "Light Force" here because it gives a perspective that few of us ever hear about in the media-- the Christians in the Middle East who are caught in the crossfire. They worship the same God as we do and many of them live under worse oppression that Palestinian Muslims because they are persecuted and restricted from both sides.

74. cn said the following at 3:52 PM on May 16:

Matthew # 55

You state "Have you ever spent any time in the Middle East, studied the Arabic language, read an Arabic Bible, or worshipped with Arab believers? If not, I would respectfully suggest that you are speaking on a subject on which you have very little personal experience."

I have spent time on the mission field in 3 different Muslim countries, I have visited Israel several time, and I'm currently planning a permanent move to Jerusalem as I am marrying an Israeli Messianic Jewish man. My experience with Arab believers and non believers is thorough enough to have an educated opinion on this matter.

I have not studied arabic extensively, but I have worked on comparative studies of the character of the God of Israel in the bible and Allah of the Koran. They are not the same. I'm strongly convicted about this.

I was expecting a few disagreements, thank you for yours and thank you for inquiring as to my resume.

Now let me ask you, is this something you've consulted the Lord about in prayer?

75. Lorry said the following at 4:00 PM on May 16:

Hey Nicole,
I plan to go as well. As soon as I can arrange it!

76. Marc said the following at 4:02 PM on May 16:

It is my prayer that the U.S. will always be faithful in its friendship and alliance with Israel. It is also my prayer that the people of Israel - politicians and civilians alike - would look to God and, ultimately, find Christ.

77. Tom Neven said the following at 4:02 PM on May 16:

Nicole (#72)

The only "danger" you'll face in Israel is possible overeating, possible over-shopping, possible sunburn ...

Really, it's quite safe. I've been there a number of times.

78. Rachael said the following at 4:57 PM on May 16:

Nicole & Lorry,

I have a Lonely Planet you could borrow...called "Israel & the Palestinian Territories"...somehow I bought it when in Japan...I think Israel might have been one of the various places I looked into, but of course, never went to...

I also am a bit scared of that area of the world, so it's nice that Tom feels it's safe...

Maybe one day I will go to Israel...I'd love to see places mentioned in the Bible!!!

79. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:59 PM on May 16:

Hmmm...

Matt (#55),

I think I would consider Allah a counterfeit of God.

Its kinda like identity theft...Allah has the same history as Yahweh up until Allah's creation (invention)...and then they are completely and totally different.

Almost like someone stole God's credit card and birth certificate, but continued living his own life =p

Different - Not the same - though with very similar histories until you get to Isaac and Ishmael =p

cn,

Is that how you would describe it?

80. Matthew said the following at 9:18 PM on May 16:

cn (#74),

I totally agree that the personality and character of "Allah" as Muslims see him and as described in the Qu'ran is totally different from Yahweh, the triune God of the Bible who came in flesh as Jesus. "Allah" as he is worshipped by Muslims is a false god.

However, when we are speaking about the word itself, "Allah" means "God" in Arabic and thus is totally appropriate for use in prayer by Christians. I'm not sure what you would replace it with. I have never met an Arabic-speaking Christian who didn't use "Allah" to refer to God, nor have I encountered an Arabic Bible that used a different word. I have myself prayed to the Lord about the matter and I have used "Allah" to address Him, both personally and as part of a congregation.

I'm sorry for being snooty about the resume thing. It's just that another friend of mine once went on about the same thing and he had no experience whatsoever with the Arabic language or any Arab Christians. I feared that this might be the case with you but clearly I was wrong. : )

81. Lorry said the following at 12:14 AM on May 17:

Hi Rachel,
I have to admit, I would be a little nervous about going. But I would go anyway. I would love to see the Western Wall. And I hear it's really nice and quiet once you get in and that life there is good and thriving and is really pretty normal. One way or another.....within the next year, I plan to go.....G-d willing of course.

82. IMO said the following at 11:58 AM on May 17:

1. Christina (#71),

I do agree with Lorry on the importance of understanding the OT in order to get a beter understanding of the NT. However, I think Lorry puts more emphasis on the OT than the NT. And I think Lorry would agree with me on that. I guess it is better to put more emphasis on the OT than completely ignore it. [Random thought: This brings to mind those pocketsize NT bibles that are available. I have a pocketsize Bible (consisting of both OT and NT) so I know it's possible to squeeze all of God's Word into the backpocket.]

What did you mean when you wrote that, "Given Israel's history and the creation of Israel, I simply don't think it should've happened."

Ezekiel 11:17
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.'

2. Leah,

You wrote, And ARRGH! Can people please write "God" and not "G-d"??

Perhaps you may not have a grasp on understanding the Jewish people (even Messianic ones like Lorry). Lorry, maybe you can elaborate on this, since I don't want to speak for you.

Leah, unless you understand why people (aka Lorry) uses G-d instead of God to write, than it is really rude and ignorant of you to even comment on the matter.

83. Leah said the following at 7:34 AM on May 18:

cn and Matthew-

I agree with Matthew's view of the word "Allah". Think about the word "god"- we use it to refer to Yahweh, to ancient greek, roman and egyptian gods- of course the Egyptian Sun God is not the same as the Lord God, but they both bear the title of "god". Switch that to the Arabic language, and it becomes "Allah"- just like we call our god "God", they call their allah "Allah". A bit confusing, but certainly not worth saying that Arabic Christians mustn't refer to God as Allah.

Tom Neven- as a very good friend of a Messianic Jew who I believe still has Israeli citizenship, I would say Israel is not what you'd call "safe". I believe she would say that too. Sure, there are safe places within Israel, but there are very unsafe places as well- significantly more unsafe than the standard "unsafe" places you'd find in Australia or the US.

(As an aside: my grade 11 english teacher told us a story of when he went backpacking in Israel when he was younger. He was basically treated very coolly, with Israelis almost wanting to get him out of their presence, until in conversation he revealed he was Australian. The Israelis with him were like "oohhh, we thought you were American!" Haha. I'm sure it's not a political thing though, and that they appreciate the US's help!)

84. Tim said the following at 9:51 AM on May 19:

Lorry #67

So, what you are telling me is that the epistle of 1 Peter has no bearing on Gentile Christians whatsoever? I think you will be hard pressed to find a great majority of Christian (and Christian scholars) who hold such a view.

Furthermore, if the passage that I quoted is not directed to ALL Christians (Jews and Gentiles) then Boundless should stop exhorting us with it (like they did in a recent post).

I happen to believe that the epistle is directed to all believers and thus applicable to all believers. Every introduction to 1 Peter that I have read or heard supports this view.

85. Christina (in green) said the following at 9:54 AM on May 19:

What did you mean when you wrote that, "Given Israel's history and the creation of Israel, I simply don't think it should've happened."

I hate using this line...cuz it is so over used...BUT, in context, the rebuilding of Israel in Ezekiel was to bring back the people of Israel so they could make sacrifice to the one true God. It was so they could worship him once again in their temple (which Ezekiel was rebuilding).

I think I said this in my explanation for why I don't think Israel should have been rebuilt 60 years ago. Every time God brought the captive israelites out of bondage or brought them back home after being scattered for generations was so they could worship him and make sacrifice to him.

60 years ago, that wasn't the case. First of all, there is no temple to sacrifice in - and neither will there be one again until the End of Times...because Jesus is the temple. And the only way there will be a temple is either with a LOT of bloodshed and another holocaust (the Muslims will NOT give up that site without a fight), or a compromise...and we all know God's temple doesn't work well under compromises =p (I think its Kings or Chronicles that talks about a king who had many gods being worshipped in God's temple)

TBH, I'm torn on it. I know that there is no biblical reason for Israel to be a nation again (Jesus is in our hearts...no temple sacrifice...yada yada), however I know its part of the setting of the stage for the End Times. I'm not a big Revelations nut, and there are only a couple things that I'm looking for with absolute certainty, and one of the things I look for with absolute certainty requires Israel to be a nation again... and the rebuilding of that temple.

86. IMO said the following at 12:42 PM on May 19:

Christina,

What about all the Old Testament Scripture used in the New Testament?

Some of it might look like it was taken out of context too….

Just a thought.

87. Leah said the following at 11:02 PM on May 19:

IMO,

Well actually I know the supposed reason for writing "G-d" and I know Messianic Jews who are happy to write "God", so I don't see that you can go around calling me rude and ignorant.

88. Tehila said the following at 7:40 AM on May 20:

Well, this is a lively discussion.

As someone who lives full time in Israel (and grew up here) I see I have little to add - most opinions are relatively well represented :-)

I would say thank you to all who DO pray for Israel. Israel as a political entity and the Jewish people as an ethnic group have as many problems as any other government or ethnic group worldwide, but I have seen the power of prayer to move insurmountable walls of hatred. There are people coming to know the Lord in this land on both sides of the political divide, and God is doing a wonderful thing. Please pray that His spirit continues to draw all who live here to Him.

So, pray for Israel - whether you pray for the Jews or the Arabs, pray that this land will find it's peace in the Prince of Peace.

Shalom from the Galilee...

89. IMO said the following at 11:49 AM on May 20:

Leah, come on, I just thought it (not you personally, let me clarify) was rude to be so annoyed with somebody writing G-d, and not God. If you have a problem with the doctrine of doing so, then by all means express that.

90. Leah said the following at 11:49 PM on May 20:

IMO, I don't understand your exasperation ("come on").

You say "If you have a problem with the doctrine of doing so, then by all means express that", then when I *do*, you tell me I'm ignorant and rude.

The original reason for people not spelling God's name in full (I'm not saying this about Boundless posters specifically, but about the original doctrine) was basically that the Jews were scared of spelling God's name wrong, erasing or defacing it. So, they referred to him as YHWH ("Yahweh") to avoid the possibility of accidentally spelling or pronouncing his name wrong. This has carried over into them writing "G-d" and "L-rd".

We don't need to be in that kind of fear of God. For sure, we need a healthy fear of him- he is all powerful, completely just, and by all rights, could smash us to smithereens at any second. But he also loves us, and spelling his name wrong is not going to incur his wrath. I think that to demonstrate that extent of fear is wrong. What happened to faith and trust? Do we really think God is so petty?

91. IMO said the following at 9:34 AM on May 21:

Leah, I thought the way you expressed your problem with the doctrine was rude.

You said, " And ARRGH! Can people please write "God" and not "G-d"??

That can definitely be interpretated as being rude. Especially when the "people" and the "ARRGH" are in regards to 1 specific individual.

If you don't think that was rude, ok, but that is my opinion on it.

By the way I totally agree with you....and I appreciate your explanation for those who may not be aware.

92. Leah said the following at 9:13 PM on May 21:

IMO- it actually wasn't directed at one specific person, because I've seen it done several times by different people over different threads. It's just that this time my frustration drove me to actually say something about it.

I wasn't annoyed just because someone was writing "G-d", but because of the attitude behind it. A complete misunderstanding of who our God is.

93. Lorry said the following at 11:45 AM on May 22:

Leah,
Thanks for your opinion on how I write the word "G-d". And I respect your opinion that I have a complete "misunderstanding" on who our G-d actually is.
We all understand that "god" is a generic term. It can go for anything or anyone and often does.
But the reason I do this, is because, for me, the awesomeness of G-d, being greater than the world could ever contain....or understand. And that nothing in this world can contain Him, or affect Him in the sense that, He is beyond all of it, makes Him greater than my small mind could ever possibly comprehend. I know that He has chosen to speak to us through the prophets and through His Word, but still.....for me.....this is my way of acknowledging His position......and mine.
I'm sorry if it offends you.

94. Lorry said the following at 11:55 AM on May 22:

Tim #84,
Seems I took a few days off and found a few responses to my blog.
You are right.....I would be hard pressed to find Christian scholars who agreed with my position on Peter. No doubt at all.
This is the problem as I see it. The "New" Testament is a continuation of the "Old"....so to speak. G-d's word is eternal. It always was. The plan of G-d, from the beginning was to send a Messiah to be a sacrifice for the times we sinned. And that sin was defined in the Torah...the first 5 books of the "Old" Testament. These "New" Testament writers were of that mindset. They already knew the Jewish teachings from the "Old" Testament. And so when they taught...that was their point of view.
To pick up the Bible and read just the Books of the "New" Testament....is leaving out a HUGE part of the story and not understanding where they were coming from. They were speaking to people who already knew their position. In much the same way, if you went to a Southern Baptist Church, you would understand where they were coming from.....or a Catholic Church, or a Lutheran...etc. The Pastor/preacher would not have to go back each time and state his theology. That is why an understanding of what they ALREADY believed is essential. Otherwise......it's like listening to someone on the telephone. You are only getting one side of the conversation.
Just my humble opinion.

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

GOOGLE THIS BLOG

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Newer Post | Older Post

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

When it comes to Jewish history, it is dangerous to indulge in prophecy. Who would have predicted Abraham leaving the grandiose home of his father and his idols to discover that God alone ruled the world? And Moses, the man with a speech defect, an inspired spokesman for his people? And David the young shepherd, a warrior and king?

Had anyone predicted Hitler's crimes? Only three years after the saddest and cruelest chapter in Jewish history, a sovereign Jewish State was proclaimed: Was it predictable? Was its military victory over five well armed Arab armies predictable? And the Six-Day war? And the Yom Kippur war? And the influx of a million Jews from the Soviet Union? And the assassination, by a Jewish fanatic, of the legendary Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin?

To try to predict is ill-advised and dangerous.

Whatever your politics when it comes to Israel, the 60th anniversary of this small nation is a good time to remember to pray for peace within its walls.

Politics | Mail This | Share on Facebook

Comments

You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

1. Matthew said the following at 4:23 PM on May 13:

hrm, my sensors are picking up another Rorschach post. Or perhaps just the best post that could be written without coming down on either side?

2. Patricia C said the following at 5:53 PM on May 13:

I too think it's another Rorschach post but I have to point out one thing:

3. cn said the following at 6:00 PM on May 13:

Thank you so much, Denise, for bringing Israel to everyone's attention again!

As we pray for Israel, make sure to remember the Messianic Jews living in the Land, especially the believing young men and woman serving in the IDF.

4. Katherine said the following at 6:44 PM on May 13:

And, let us pray for the peace of all, both within Israel's walls and those outside of it, too.

5. Jessica said the following at 7:56 PM on May 13:

6. Chris B. (VA) said the following at 8:04 PM on May 13:

In response to #2 (Patricia):

I must take exception with any notion that God has forever rejected Israel, that the Church has replaced Israel before God, or that Israel is not more important than any other nation.

Concerning specific prayer for Israel, we are told to, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May those who love you [Jerusalem] be secure" (Psalms 122:6).

Praying for the peace of Israel comes straight from the Word, and should be on the hearts of all true Christians.

7. Jacob said the following at 9:53 PM on May 13:

Patricia and Chris are demonstrating why theology matters. Patricia is aruguing for a covenantal perspective while Chris is coming from a dispensational perspective.

I think Patricia is right, but it's a point of polite disagreement between many Christians.

8. Patricia C said the following at 10:16 PM on May 13:

9. Patricia C said the following at 7:18 AM on May 14:

10. Matt from DC said the following at 7:27 AM on May 14:

Chris B on #5 - well said.

Shalom aleichem.

11. Khalil said the following at 9:06 AM on May 14:

I take exception to comment #5, "Praying for the peace of Israel comes straight from the Word, and should be on the hearts of all true Christians."

12. Courtney said the following at 9:17 AM on May 14:

And thank you Denise, for this post.

13. Denise Morris said the following at 9:36 AM on May 14:

Patricia,

14. Chris B. (VA) said the following at 11:22 AM on May 14:

Patricia,

Thank you for your thoughtful and scriptural response. We certainly must read the verses in context, both in the context of the surrounding verses, and in view of God's Word as a whole.

15. Jim H. said the following at 11:47 AM on May 14:

Getting back to Isaiah 11, the context of this passage appears to be the 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ as indicated by the verses 11:5-9

-----------------------
Isaiah 11:5-9 (ESV)

16. Melissa said the following at 12:03 PM on May 14:

17. Jill A. said the following at 1:58 PM on May 14:

18. Tim said the following at 2:56 PM on May 14:

This is in response to the discussion between Patricia and Chris.

First off, let me say that I side with Patricia on this.

Second off, to accurately look at Romans 11 one must understand that chapter in the context of the argument that Paul began in chapter 9.

Romans 9:6-8:
"6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: 'THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.'

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

What does Paul mean when he says "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel?"

Side Note: This post was written in haste (not a good idea, I know!).

19. PLH said the following at 3:17 PM on May 14:

Also, verses that discuss prophesy are notoriously difficult to interpret. My feeling is just that we should pray for the conversion of the Jews and leave the rest up to God.

20. Tim said the following at 3:25 PM on May 14:

Melissa #16 said:

"the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel."

Ahh.....but is that ethnic Israel in Rev 7:4-8?

If that is ethnic Israel then it is very strange indeed, for two tribes are missing from the list.

So, in that passage Ephraim and Dan are left out. Without those two tribes the list is incomplete.

So, I ask: does Revelation 7:4-8 truly refer to ethnic Israel? If so, why?

In Response to Denise #13:

21. Jim H said the following at 4:02 PM on May 14:

Re: PLH, post #19.

2. Interpretation of prophecy is notoriously difficult - that is why I am not dogmatic on my end-times beliefs and am very open to other interpretations.

22. Jim H said the following at 4:28 PM on May 14:

And Paul is definitely talking about ethnic Israel in chapter 11. Otherwise, you have Christians being grafted into other Christians?

The bottom line verse already mentioned by others is this and it could not be more clear:

23. Tim said the following at 4:57 PM on May 14:

I want add something pertaining to what I said in my #18 post.

I said, "Is God a polygamist? Is that what you would have him to be?"

24. Matthew said the following at 5:19 PM on May 14:

If they can be, what is Israel justified in doing to claim its land, and what land are they justified to claim?

25. cn said the following at 6:46 PM on May 14:

Patricia,

"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

Through Jesus, Jews and Gentiles form one new man. One new body with a new calling, function and purpose.

The covenant God made with their fore fathers still stands in an irrevocable way. They are irreplaceable in His heart.

26. Lorry said the following at 10:51 PM on May 14:

27. Patricia C said the following at 11:09 PM on May 14:

28. Lorry said the following at 11:17 PM on May 14:

29. Patricia C said the following at 11:36 PM on May 14:

30. PLH said the following at 6:15 AM on May 15:

31. IMO said the following at 8:18 AM on May 15:

Lorry,
I am of Jewish background. I like your passion and agree on some points you make. But there are a couple of things that trouble me about your post.

If you read the New Testament, you will know that Christ refers to the Church as the bride. Maybe you don't know who The Church is. Maybe that's where the problem lies.

32. Jill A. said the following at 9:14 AM on May 15:

33. Jim H said the following at 9:45 AM on May 15:

PLH, post 30.

34. Denise Morris said the following at 9:48 AM on May 15:

IMO,

I just wanted to make one comment about your post -- I am very doubtful that the fisherman Jesus chose were ignorant of Torah. Everyone in Jesus' community new Torah. Everyone.

I would encourage reading "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin R. Wilson. It gives some great background about the Jews in the time of Jesus.

35. Denise Morris said the following at 9:50 AM on May 15:

Also, which of the NT writers wasn't Jewish?

36. Tim said the following at 10:02 AM on May 15:

But, I would like to get back to the original topic concerning support for the state of Israel.

We must be careful that our support for Israel does not turn into the creed that "Israel can do no wrong."

37. steph said the following at 10:24 AM on May 15:

38. Lorry said the following at 10:35 AM on May 15:

39. Lorry said the following at 10:38 AM on May 15:

Also IMO,
I also don't believe the fishermen were ignorant. I am not sure where that would come from. The Jews at that time would have known Torah.

Also, my email address is:
im38@juno.com if you would like to continue this conversation so that we don't interrupt the flow of this topic.

40. IMO said the following at 11:09 AM on May 15:

When I write on the fly, I may get a few things wrong. I APOLOGIZE.

Please note the " " when I wrote the word ignorant. Ignorant in the sense they weren't like the Pharisees or other huge religious leaders...I didn't realize I had to explain it further.

John 17:3, “And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.”

“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

As long as we bring glory to God, our approach can be different and still acceptable.

41. PLH said the following at 11:17 AM on May 15:

42. Lorry said the following at 11:24 AM on May 15:

43. Tom Neven said the following at 11:32 AM on May 15:

Denise (#35)

Some believe Luke (writer of the gospel bearing his name and Acts) was a gentile.

The argument for this is not definitive, though.

44. Jim H said the following at 11:53 AM on May 15:

45. PLH said the following at 12:02 PM on May 15:

46. IMO said the following at 12:19 PM on May 15:

LOrry #42 I completely agree with you! :)

47. PLH said the following at 12:23 PM on May 15:

Jim H-Agreed. I didn't necessarily mean you but often it seems that publicly some evangelical leaders turn a blind eye to what Israel does when it exercises its military power.

48. Jim H. said the following at 12:26 PM on May 15:

PLH 45.
Regarding Jews and the Holy Land, where in Scripture was this everlasting promise God made to Abraham abrogated?

Genesis 17:8 (ESV)
And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

49. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:33 PM on May 15:

Denise,

It is theorized that Luke was not a Jew. But other than him, the general consensus is that all the other writers were Jews.

50. Patricia C said the following at 1:21 PM on May 15:

51. Lorry said the following at 3:12 PM on May 15:

I actually am suggesting that Jews and Gentiles alike follow Torah. I believe that is what He taught and that is certainly how he lived.

52. Nicole said the following at 5:25 PM on May 15:

It's an incredible history how Israel has prevailed over and over again, they have not only survived but thrived over the past 60 years. This could only be done with God's guiding hand upon them.

I think we should pray for BOTH Israel and Palestine. Both countries have believers and non-believers who are in constant danger.

53. cn said the following at 6:01 PM on May 15:

Tim #36,

Israeli attacks on Palestinian territories are hardly "for no reason."

54. cn said the following at 7:09 PM on May 15:

Patricia (# 27 and 29),

As for your thoughts on Ruth and Rahab, remember the cry of Ruth's heart was:

"Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God." Ruth 1:16 NASB

Ruth not only joined herself to the God of Israel, but also the people of Israel. She was joining the Jewish Olive Tree. ;)

Similarly, Rahab joined the people of Israel after righteously hiding the spys.

I greatly appreciate your posts. They are well thought through and show a knowledge of scripture. I hope that you will not receive my disagreement as a personal attack in any way! :)

I'm sorry that I'm unable to address some of your other comments at the moment. Homework interferes! I'll do what I can to offer some thoughts later! Know that I read them and appreciate your views.

55. Matthew said the following at 8:12 PM on May 15:

cn,

56. renee said the following at 8:48 PM on May 15:

57. Patricia C said the following at 8:57 PM on May 15:

58. Leah said the following at 5:36 AM on May 16:

Good post.

59. Shaun Kramm said the following at 5:42 AM on May 16:

60. Tim said the following at 10:47 AM on May 16:

Cn #53,

Have you ever heard of the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre? The Israeli army massacred an entire village of 250 men, women, and children. Hooray for the Zionists!

I am well aware of the Zionist and Christian Zionists movement.

cn said: "I have read your post and firstly would like to note that you clearly state "We (the Church) are God's chosen people." (see #2)"

What does Peter call us [Christians] in 1 Peter 2:9?

And what does verse 10 say?

"for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY."

So I ask: who are God's people?

Furthermore, everyone keeps mentioning the promises made to Abraham and his people. But who are Abraham's heirs?

Gal 3:29

"9And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Therefore, if any Jew rejects Jesus, are they truly Abraham's descendants and thus heirs according to the promise? Remember, "the righteous shall live by faith."

cn said: "Ruth not only joined herself to the God of Israel, but also the people of Israel. She was joining the Jewish Olive Tree. ;)"

Lastly, I would to say that this conversation has been fascinating and challenging.

61. Lorry said the following at 11:20 AM on May 16:

62. Ted Slater said the following at 11:37 AM on May 16:

Tim,

Let me be blunt: Your description of the so-called "Deir Yassin massacre" is wrong in many ways, and consistent with what anti-Semitic propagandists have been promoting.

Muslims always exaggerate the number of people killed, in efforts to manipulate PR and promote their causes. The truth is that fewer than 120 were killed in the incident. Still a lot, but not 250.

Second, the town had at least 750 residents, not 250.

Being a savage doesn't necessarily make someone noble. We shouldn't by default see the Muslims as noble, and the Israelis as ignoble "Zionists."

63. Tim said the following at 12:27 PM on May 16:

Ted,

My description of the Deir Yassin massacre came from Brother Andrew. I am not sure if you have heard of him (I doubt you have not, though).

I am not sure who Brother Andrew's sources were or whose yours were. Obviously, one of you is wrong and I am no judge to say who.

64. Tim said the following at 12:58 PM on May 16:

Ted,

I would like to apologize to you. I have checked out numerous sources and the 120 dead figure is correct.

65. Ted Slater said the following at 1:00 PM on May 16:

Tim et al.,

I appreciate your humility. I have a ways to grow in humility....

Of course, it's difficult for them not to lie when the founder of their religion was inspired by the Father of Lies.

I better leave it at that.

66. Matthew said the following at 1:20 PM on May 16:

Ted (#62),

We are not anti-Semitic by any means, but we are merely disturbed by the fact that it seems that no conservative evangelical group can ever bring itself to call Israel to account for its crimes.

67. Lorry said the following at 1:26 PM on May 16:

68. Jo said the following at 1:50 PM on May 16:

Tom Neven, Mike Theemling...

I have always been under the impression that Luke was, definitely, a Gentile. I wasn't aware there was any doubt... Could you guys elaborate a little??

69. Tom Neven said the following at 2:02 PM on May 16:

Jo (#68)

Here's a good link laying out the case for and against Luke's being a Gentile.

70. Ted Slater said the following at 2:07 PM on May 16:

Matthew -- the "Beit Hanoun April 2008 incident" is also a myth, which is easily determined by simply googling that phrase.

71. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:49 PM on May 16:

This is an interesting post...

I'm surprised it took me so long to actually start reading it...

But anyway, I don't have anything against Jews...just my personal feelings regarding their history =p

I'm more interested in the discussion between IMO and Lorry...

72. Nicole said the following at 3:38 PM on May 16:

73. Matthew said the following at 3:41 PM on May 16:

Ted (#70),

74. cn said the following at 3:52 PM on May 16:

Matthew # 55

I was expecting a few disagreements, thank you for yours and thank you for inquiring as to my resume.

Now let me ask you, is this something you've consulted the Lord about in prayer?

75. Lorry said the following at 4:00 PM on May 16:

Hey Nicole,
I plan to go as well. As soon as I can arrange it!

76. Marc said the following at 4:02 PM on May 16:

77. Tom Neven said the following at 4:02 PM on May 16:

Nicole (#72)

The only "danger" you'll face in Israel is possible overeating, possible over-shopping, possible sunburn ...

Really, it's quite safe. I've been there a number of times.

78. Rachael said the following at 4:57 PM on May 16:

Nicole & Lorry,

I also am a bit scared of that area of the world, so it's nice that Tom feels it's safe...

Maybe one day I will go to Israel...I'd love to see places mentioned in the Bible!!!

79. Christina (in green) said the following at 4:59 PM on May 16:

Hmmm...

Matt (#55),

I think I would consider Allah a counterfeit of God.

Its kinda like identity theft...Allah has the same history as Yahweh up until Allah's creation (invention)...and then they are completely and totally different.

Almost like someone stole God's credit card and birth certificate, but continued living his own life =p

Different - Not the same - though with very similar histories until you get to Isaac and Ishmael =p

cn,

Is that how you would describe it?

80. Matthew said the following at 9:18 PM on May 16:

cn (#74),

81. Lorry said the following at 12:14 AM on May 17:

82. IMO said the following at 11:58 AM on May 17:

1. Christina (#71),

What did you mean when you wrote that, "Given Israel's history and the creation of Israel, I simply don't think it should've happened."

2. Leah,

You wrote, And ARRGH! Can people please write "God" and not "G-d"??

Perhaps you may not have a grasp on understanding the Jewish people (even Messianic ones like Lorry). Lorry, maybe you can elaborate on this, since I don't want to speak for you.

Leah, unless you understand why people (aka Lorry) uses G-d instead of God to write, than it is really rude and ignorant of you to even comment on the matter.

83. Leah said the following at 7:34 AM on May 18:

cn and Matthew-

84. Tim said the following at 9:51 AM on May 19:

Lorry #67

Furthermore, if the passage that I quoted is not directed to ALL Christians (Jews and Gentiles) then Boundless should stop exhorting us with it (like they did in a recent post).

I happen to believe that the epistle is directed to all believers and thus applicable to all believers. Every introduction to 1 Peter that I have read or heard supports this view.

85. Christina (in green) said the following at 9:54 AM on May 19:

What did you mean when you wrote that, "Given Israel's history and the creation of Israel, I simply don't think it should've happened."

86. IMO said the following at 12:42 PM on May 19:

Christina,

What about all the Old Testament Scripture used in the New Testament?

Some of it might look like it was taken out of context too….

Just a thought.

87. Leah said the following at 11:02 PM on May 19:

IMO,

Well actually I know the supposed reason for writing "G-d" and I know Messianic Jews who are happy to write "God", so I don't see that you can go around calling me rude and ignorant.

88. Tehila said the following at 7:40 AM on May 20:

Well, this is a lively discussion.

As someone who lives full time in Israel (and grew up here) I see I have little to add - most opinions are relatively well represented :-)

So, pray for Israel - whether you pray for the Jews or the Arabs, pray that this land will find it's peace in the Prince of Peace.

Shalom from the Galilee...

89. IMO said the following at 11:49 AM on May 20:

90. Leah said the following at 11:49 PM on May 20:

IMO, I don't understand your exasperation ("come on").

You say "If you have a problem with the doctrine of doing so, then by all means express that", then when I *do*, you tell me I'm ignorant and rude.

91. IMO said the following at 9:34 AM on May 21:

Leah, I thought the way you expressed your problem with the doctrine was rude.

You said, " And ARRGH! Can people please write "God" and not "G-d"??

That can definitely be interpretated as being rude. Especially when the "people" and the "ARRGH" are in regards to 1 specific individual.

If you don't think that was rude, ok, but that is my opinion on it.

By the way I totally agree with you....and I appreciate your explanation for those who may not be aware.

92. Leah said the following at 9:13 PM on May 21:

I wasn't annoyed just because someone was writing "G-d", but because of the attitude behind it. A complete misunderstanding of who our God is.

93. Lorry said the following at 11:45 AM on May 22:

94. Lorry said the following at 11:55 AM on May 22:

If you'd like to leave a comment, we're afraid you'll have to use a non-mobile device to do so. I just couldn't get the mobile comment entry form to work right. Alas. ~Ted.

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

Comments

Post a comment*

External Links

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

GOOGLE THIS BLOG

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

Comments

Israel's 60th Birthday by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

Comments

Post a comment*

External Links

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Archives

Contributors

About Us

Relevant Boundless Articles

GOOGLE THIS BLOG

SUBSCRIBE VIA EMAIL

Israel's 60th Birthday by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

Comments

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM

Israel's 60th Birthday
by Denise Morris on 05/13/2008 at 4:11 PM