Dating Dilemmas: Episode #16
by Motte Brown on 05/09/2008 at 4:10 PM
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Steve Watters ends the segment with a poignant reminder of why we all need to take the time to make this Mother's Day a special one.
Roundtable -- 6:50
Is it OK for Christians to go camping alone with their girlfriends or boyfriends? Hmm. That's one of the dating dilemmas we discuss in our roundtable this week. Other dilemmas revolve around jobless men and spendthrift women. It's a fun segment, but we hope you'll find it helpful as well.
Culture -- 22:35
Many of you have probably already seen Facing the Giants from Sherwood Pictures, the movie production arm of Sherwood Baptist Church in Albany, Georgia. Well, they have a new movie coming out this September called Fireproof and Lisa had a chance to sit down with Jim McBride and Steven Kendrick after a special screening here at Focus on the Family. I couldn't make it but based on what everybody had to say, it's a must-see!
Hungry Years -- 33:29
When John Thomas was offered his first job out of college, he was a reluctant candidate. One of the marks against it was the location ... his hometown. And who wants to move back home right after college. Nobody, right? But despite low pay and no benefits, would it turn out to be an offer he couldn't refuse? Check it out. I guarantee you'll laugh out loud.
Inbox -- 38:50
Does Boundless have an unbalanced view of marriage? One of our listeners thinks so after Candice brought up a woman's "help meet" role in last week's podcast. The questioner asks in short, shouldn't women who've done all the right things to "get married" stop chasing men and seek God? Steve and Candice tackle this one with resounding, We agree! But....
I'm including your listening options here because we're working on our artwork this week. If you're inclined to listen on iTunes, please take a moment to leave us a review. Also, if you like to stream or download the MP3 or want to subscribe through RSS, all those options can be found on our Feedburner page.
And last but not least, I'd like to end by thanking West Coast Revival for letting us use their music this week. It really adds to the show. And if you want to hear more go to their Web site.
1. j. said the following at 5:21 PM on May 9:
Good advice on the camping/hotel/etc. Someone once told me that a couple who is "pre-marriage" that isn't in love with and attracted to each other to the point where a situation like that WOULD be a problem, maybe shouldn't be headed towards marriage to begin with.
2. BDB said the following at 6:03 PM on May 9:
On the unemployment issue, I think the only thing missing from the discussion is people who've been laid off and are on severance. They way the economy is today, this is something that can easily happen several times in a man's working life. So, if he's got a few month's salary as severance, you can probably learn about his character by how he goes about his job search. Keep in mind that the rule of thumb is that it takes one month of looking for every $10,000 in salary.
You may also want to think of these times as an opportunity to discuss strategic planning for life. As soon as he gets a new job, he'll be too busy for a relationship. He might have been too busy for one while working before. So, the time on severance might be the right time to help him think things through.
3. Christina (in green) said the following at 6:48 PM on May 9:
I haven't listened to that one yet, but I've wondered about that.
My first boyfriend wanted to take me on a cruise, and I was adamantly against it...I couldn't put a finger on why.
When my best friend and his girlfriend went on a cruise or went camping together, it made me feel very uncomfortable...I felt like it wasn't exactly right...and again, I couldn't communicate to him why...even though both of them are very disciplined in the platonic relationship...
4. niki said the following at 9:22 AM on May 11:
I think, in terms of camping alone with someone you're not married to. . .why put yourself in the situation? We take so many other precautions with our relationships, and put up boundaries, why put yourself in a place where it is going to be so hard to say no, where there is no accountability?
5. Justice said the following at 11:15 PM on May 11:
I'm listening to it right now, very good. I know my fiance and I have been trying to figure out how to stay overnight this coming July for an event we bought tickets for. We still haven't figured it out yet, but I'm so studly that I know we have to figure something out so she doesn't attack me!
6. GL said the following at 9:51 AM on May 12:
The camping question is one that should be considered. My boyfriend and I tried it last summer with a large, two room tent. Turned out there wasn't enough space between us and boundaries that shouldn't have been crossed were. This summer we're planning on going camping again, this time with two separate tents and the understanding that neither one of us should be in the other's tent for any reason. I think it can be done, but the boundaries have to be in place, and there has to be a solid committment from both persons to abide by those boundaries no matter what.
7. obewan said the following at 10:35 AM on May 12:
I really don’t see how camping together (in separate tents) can be any more dangerous than visiting each other alone in an apartment. It is probably less dangerous. I suppose if it is a one-on-one campout it is more risky than a group event, but my church singles group goes on two camping trips a year in mixed company and we have never had a problem. I suppose it is because guys share with guy’s tents, and vice versa. I mean, gee, adult singles can face temptations of all sorts when they rent their first apartment and are lonely in town. I can’t tell you how tempted I was when I was alone in Houston at age 22 and 1800 miles away from my family. My upstairs neighbor was more than outgoing and would constantly invite me to come up for a drink. I am not a drinker, but when she had had a few, she was something to detach from. It would have been easier if she were not a shapely attractive blonde too. The only thing that kept me out of trouble was my resolve to never date a non-Christian, but if things were different at least I could have invited her to our church singles group
8. Tami said the following at 12:18 PM on May 12:
I suppose that the whole question of the urge to travel "alone together" is part of the reason a lot of Christians urge short engagements. :)
I don't think it's wrong to *want* to travel places together. I mean, we travel with family and friends; it's sort of natural to extend that to wanting to travel with your boyfriend -- and of course I'm strictly speaking here of enjoying travel companionship, not a "sexy lovers' getaway" type deal. But, I do understand that the line is pretty easily crossed! For that reason, I'd want to take along other people. And to get alone time w/a boyfriend/fiance, I'd go on daytime hikes...
9. Gabe said the following at 1:07 PM on May 12:
Okay...here's the thing...I agree with the fact that you should place boundaries in a relationship to help stave off the chance of sinning. God made men and women attracted to each other for a reason, but with everything in this world sin has turned what God created as good into something that can be very bad. If your in a relationship where God is the focus then you at least have a fighting chance. With that said, there are a few issues that you must ask yourself, your friends/accountability group and/or church mentors/family. One, do they trust the two of you? If this answer is not “yes”, then there is a serious issue regarding the relationship in the first place. Two, ‘Is God truly the center of the relationship?’ and as a corollary, ‘Are you both seeking God’s will in your relationship?’ This is different then two Christians dating…shouldn’t be, but it unfortunately is. If you are truly seeking His will, then you will know if you can resist sin. Your track record is also important. If you have had trouble keeping boundaries, then definitely don’t be alone in situations that would make sexual sin easy. If you both police your actions, and this is important because if one of the couple is always stopping things from happening your going to find yourself in trouble, then nothing will change just because your in a tent rather than on a couch. Now, for those who say you should simply avoid all temptation in the relationship…that’s fine if you're the type with absolutely no self control…if you do prescribe to a total avoidance of any and all sin because you think that temptation is just as bad as sin, there’s a rather interesting story in the bible regarding the Son of God, the desert, the devil and temptation that you should probably make yourself a little more familiar with! Its also concerning that the central issue is whether camping together would result in the relationship failing to bring glory and honor to God, but rather that "if your not ready to be married and have sex then you shouldn't be in a relationship. Marriage does not equal sexual activity...if this is your primary concern in a relationship you shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place...your not ready!!!
10. Val said the following at 1:16 PM on May 12:
One idea for housing while traveling is in a hostel. There are often separate rooms for guys and girls. Even in the coed rooms, there would be other people around, which would provide accountability.
I know hostelling can greatly vary on the location and ownership, but it's something I've enjoyed. It's especially neat if you are travelling alone and want to make some friends and meet other travelers along the way.
Be sure to read internet reviews of your hostel about location, safety, cleanliness, comfort, customer service, etc.
Hostelling International is a company that I have used and was recommended by my Christian university. I've only stayed in their hostels in Boston, Portland, and Washington D.C., but they have locations all over the world.
Be safe and happy trails!
11. lesson learned--anonymous said the following at 4:08 PM on May 12:
Gabe, regarding your idea that Christians who are trusted by their sources of accountability, placing God at the center of a relationship, and seeking His will won't have as much problem with temptation...
I disagree. A year ago, I might have agreed, but not now. At least, I think a relationship can move away from fitting those criteria without the people in the relationship realizing it, and that's where the danger comes in.
I was in a serious dating relationship in which I had no doubt (and I don't think my boyfriend did either) that we were moving toward marriage. We were sure it was God's will, and we really did want to seek His will for us. I know I prayed about the relationship regularly, and I think he did too. I'm certain that people who know us would have trusted us to act in a godly manner.
Even though we both wanted God's will for us, we spent too much time together alone. We justified it in our minds by reasoning that we were grown-ups, we had established that sex was for marriage, and so we could handle that time alone together.
Well, we didn't have sex, but we definitely crossed some lines we shouldn't have. The thing is, the closer you are to "the line" the harder it is to see it. At first, we just wanted to be close to one another. And when you're that close, it's just too easy to get a little bit closer.
We broke up a couple months ago, and I'm still having a hard time with the memories I have of those lines crossed. We shared some experiences that I never wanted to share with anyone but my husband, and now it really doesn't look like that'll be the case.
We didn't want to be "legalistic" but I wish we'd made some different choices. And not trusted so much in our ability to overcome temptation.
12. Chris > said the following at 5:36 AM on May 13:
Hey Gabe, that was a lot of "reasonable-sounding reason" there, but unfortunately, most times trying to "reason" our way around the Biblical basics just gets us into trouble! (Sadly testified to by "Lessons Learned" - Thanks for the courage to share that and i'm so sad for you that you had to learn it that way...)
God understands human nature so well, and He already covered these kinds of situations in a verse that's really easy to remember - just think of "2222" like an S.O.S. code in any of these scenarios! 2 Timothy 2:22 takes care of it:
New Living Translation (NLT) -
"Run from anything that stimulates youthful lusts. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace..."
It doesn't say you have to BE a "youth" to encounter these temptations, either, so no wheedling out of it that way! ;)
Hope this helps. I add, at risk, that somehow i think that we probably already know on the inside that these are not really things that Believers should be doing, but sometimes it's hard to resist trying to justify it!
Thanks, Boundless Crew, for helping to set the record straight for those who still might be trying to "get around the basics" to their own harm.
13. Chris > said the following at 5:41 AM on May 13:
PS. Am i the only one who was saddened by the opening comments concerning the elderly mother of the hostess? =(
I'm thankful, for that woman's sake, that she isn't able to listen to the broadcast - i'm sure she would be absolutely heartbroken to hear her daughter say those things about her for all the world to hear.
Thanks, Steve, for rescuing the segment by truly honoring your mother's memory with your heart-felt remarks.
14. lucy said the following at 7:46 AM on May 13:
i agree we should stay away from the line if we dont want to cross it. its true, even if both you guys are saved temptation will always come your way. the relationships and its foundations will be tested. but after he has tried us we shall come forth as pure gold
15. a sassy sister said the following at 9:32 AM on May 13:
ok, let's be honest here. The Christian life is not free from temptations or trials. What defines our character believers is how we respond to temptations and trials.
Bottom line, boundaries regarding this issue are something that must be in place AND enforced by both parties in the relationship. These things also should be discussed openly between both parties. However, that does not mean that because those things are in place that the temptation will not come, or that somehow a person will be immune from it "if they follow steps a-c".
16. Sophie said the following at 3:39 PM on May 13:
Regarding the comment about how Lisa handled the topic of her mom -- I thought she was tasteful and respectful, only because the way in which she said these things were endearing and reflected a genuine relationship with her mom that allows for a sense of humor. Lisa also mentioned that her mom laughs at these same special quirks and even highlights them herself. I also heard a thankfulness in Lisa when she talked about how her mom prays regularly for the podcast and holds it near and dear. Moms are blessings from the Lord and I do not in any way agree with behavior that diminishes them. But I didn't get the impression that was what Lisa was trying to do.
17. Gabe said the following at 5:34 PM on May 13:
As with many things in the bible you have to take what is said in the context of which it is written. I can find verses to support or refute just about anything. With that said…”lesson Learned”, My condolences…I know what it feels like to have something that you thought was going one way turn out bad, but it is clear that there were other issues in the relationship that had nothing to do with crossing the line…that was simply a result. If you can’t see the line then you are not focusing on the correct things in a relationship.
Now, for the general topic…I am not rationalizing away the need to follow biblical principles. The truth of the bible lies in the fact that it is applicable to everyone and every situation, thus there are many issues that you must analyze the situation and see how the word applies. Every couple is different. Now, for the younger, less “mature” Christian it is essential to have simple cut and dry boundaries in place, such as not allowing yourself to be in a situation that would be tempting and that could lead to sin. This would mean “Don’t be alone with each other”. However, this is perhaps not the case for all couples. My relationship has been greatly enriched by “alone time” and in fact has lead to the establishment of boundaries simply because we don’t want to get to close to sexual sin. Chris is correct in that we should avoid temptation so that we don’t fall into sin. The thing is, temptation for one couple is not necessarily a temptation for another. I can assure you that temptation in my relationship is different than others. What I and my girlfriend must guard against is and will be different than others.
Now, Chris gives a great suggestion with 2222, and though useful this verse is taken out of context. Read the entire section and see what it is saying: 22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
So, what does this leave us with? Seek God’s will in your relationship. Communicate this to each other…don’t think your partner is being led the same way. Don’t think you both feel the same way. Don’t’ think your partner wants the same thing. Know what your partner wants…submit to God and the Holy Spirit. If your focus in on your relationship bringing glory and honor to God then you will know what behaviors will be temptations and which ones will not. Finally, I will follow the guidance of Chris’ advice (2 Timothy 2:24) and stop this quarreling.
Blessings.
18. BDB said the following at 5:51 PM on May 13:
End italics
19. lesson learned said the following at 10:51 AM on May 14:
Gabe, I don't think there's a quarrel involved here, just a discussion of experiences and ideas.
I'm glad that you and your girlfriend have established boundaries. That'll definitely help. I realize I don't know you, but I do want to caution you against thinking that you're above certain temptations. I wasn't concerned about being alone for an extended time with my boyfriend because it hadn't been a problem for me previously. But it became a problem.
Regarding your comment, "If you can’t see the line then you are not focusing on the correct things in a relationship," that was kind of my point. If you're not careful in the time you spend together, it's easy to lose that focus on the correct things.
As to the "other issues in the relationship" you mention, I think this is really a matter of the chicken and the egg. The issues didn't really arise until we started spending so much time alone together and lost our focus. We should have established clear boundaries sooner. That's true. Other than that, I can't think of any issues that we had.
When we started our relationship, we were actually good for each other. We had been friends before we started dating, and we became an even greater source of encouragement to each other when we started dating. We talked, prayed, walked, laughed, and just enjoyed one another's company. We helped one another with big and little problems and each encouraged the other spiritually. Our friends and family all thought we were great together.
We started spending more and more time together alone, and that's when we lost our "focus on the correct things."
For what it's worth, I don't regret this sin only because we're not together anymore. I realize that, even if we were to get back together and get married, what we did was still wrong. It was still dishonoring to God and to each other. And, we had actually repented of what we'd done and established some very clear boundaries before we broke up.
One last thing, it's easy to have "alone time" without actually being alone. Walks and hikes are great because you're alone, but there's always a chance that you'll encounter other people. Car rides also work, providing plenty of time for quality conversation without opportunity for much else.
Grace, peace, and wisdom to you all!
20. D. Aaron Wells said the following at 11:39 AM on May 14:
Gabe (17), I've gotta disagree with you, bud. As Chris said earlier, what you say SOUNDS good, but I am doubtful as to its veracity.
First, the accusation of taking a verse out of context is a rather worn out refrain, especially in a case like this, where the verse has perfectly excellent application to the issue of sexual temptations, as well as to greed or contentiousness. There is clear precedent for such an application in the story of Joseph in Genesis and in the Proverbs. But I am not even sure what your point was in the first place by calling Chris' quotation uncontextual. What is it that you're out to prove?
Secondly, my young friend, you will find in time, either you or your children, how ridiculous it is to say that clear boundaries are for "younger, less mature" Christians. You are absolutely right in saying that sin is bourne out of a lack of correct focus in a relationship. But focus on Jesus does not clear one of the responsibility for establishing a pattern of intentional and faithful obedience; it MANDATES such boundaries.
Here is a verse taken in its context that I think you ought to consider, if you know what is good for you and that young lady you are pursuing:
"These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." [1 Corinthians 10:11-13]
You've got a lot of truthiness there, bro...but a real lack of true wisdom, from what I read of your writing.
21. Gabe said the following at 3:31 PM on May 14:
Okay, perhaps my writing skills are not up to par. D. Aaron Wells, I love that verse and if you knew what I have lived through in the past 6 years you would understand more about where I am coming from (and why I have clung to the very verse many days and nights)...that said, there is no need to start throwing bible verses around. I was not going to respond, for fear of becoming defensive, but the recent post "Basketball Jesus" on boundless.org points out some of what I am trying to say. I'm not a writer so perhaps a discussion regarding faith and making the correct choices to honor god, and not simply following a list of strict, black and white rules, written by a professional will make my point more clear.
In a nutshell...nobody is above sin and falling into sin because of temptation, however; God not only gave us free will, He gave us will power and the Holy Spirit to guide us to make the correct choices. It all boils down to the simple fact that if you cross the line, you knew you were getting close and crossing it, and you rationalized it to make it okay at the time. Imposing your own weaknesses upon others in not biblical, any more than imposing your strengths on others is (such as saying there is no need for rules). Show me the bible verse "A man and woman shalt never be alone, either at each others homes or in the wilderness (camping)" and I'll concede. Otherwise, we should simple encourage each other to honor God, not impose rules on each other.
22. BDB said the following at 7:34 PM on May 14:
Since no one else has brought it up, travel accomodations are an opportunity for men to show leadership.
For example, in college I knew a couple going to a formal dance. The girl's MOM was excitedly telling everyone that they were getting a hotel room.
Problem was, the guy was a youth pastor. This would not be a good career move. He did tell her that this was not something he should be doing.
The girl was upset. I don't think she had ever dated a real Christian before. I tried to explain the career implications for someone in ministry leadership. [That's a good way to draw fire.] But eventually he won and she accepted the situation. They did eventually get married, too.
Overall, I believe that people following the hands off, clothes on rule are in a better position to deal with privacy. Especially if they're also following a no-alcohol rule.
23. Tara said the following at 8:57 PM on May 14:
I don't think the idol meat issue can be applied to issues of sexual purity. The meat was being offered to fake gods (as the Baskeball Jesus article points out). The meat had been used to worship essentially nothing. But the following chapter has Paul commanding people how to behave modestly (women keep their heads covered while praying). He never says women should only keep their heads covered around men who would be tempted by it. He just said to keep their heads covered. I realize that was a cultural issue but I wonder if we contemporary Christians are too quick to apply the idol-meat example to every single contemporary issue not spelled out in the Bible.
Escaping legalism is so tricky. Cultural standards for morality are in constant flux. I'm rather prudish compared to most of my friends (including Christians) but some of the things I feel OK with would make my grandmother squirm. Am I OK with that? Is my grandmother too uptight or do I need to rein myself in? Where do we draw the line?
It's a tough call. :/
24. Jo said the following at 10:05 AM on May 15:
Tara,
I think the idol-meat question can be applied to sexual purity in the 'early stages', ie do we hold hands, do we kiss, do we spend any time alone together.. But further along the road I think the lines are (or should be) a lot less blurry.
25. Bo said the following at 3:07 PM on Jun 16:
BDB--
I am coming in late to this discussion, but I really appreciate your thoughts on this being an opportunity for leadership. Here's one of my issues with the whole camping situation.
First of all, even if a couple goes camping and is miraculously (i.e. by the grace of God and for NO other reason, including "maturity") able to remain pure, everyone else at that campsite is going to assume that the man and woman in that tent are sleeping together. This brings in the whole issue of the appearance of evil. Hello.
Of course, I would imagine that camping-together-advocates would argue that they are out to please God only, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, etc. Which brings me to my second point--the issue of leadership and respect.
I don't think anyone could deny that the average person would assume that a guy and a girl sharing a tent are sleeping together. I would, for sure. So, knowing that, why in the world would the guy want to put his girlfriend in that situation? Why would he want to dishonor her with the appearance that she is anything but pure and chaste and beautiful? Why would he ever compromise her reputation by putting her in a situation in which she appears to be sinning and ungodly? The people around them will not be thinking what a godly, chaste, self-controlled woman she is. They'll assume the contrary.
It sounds like the guy in that scenario needs to think about protecting, leading, and honoring his girlfriend, and the girlfriend needs to wonder what kind of guy she's really dating.