The One Thing Christians and Feminists Agreed On
by Heather Koerner on 04/29/2008 at 1:24 PM
Over on the Radical Womanhood blog, Carolyn McCulley has released an unedited chapter from her upcoming book, also titled Radical Womanhood. In the chapter, Carolyn reminds us that there was one thing that feminists and Christians used to agree upon--the fight against pornography.
McCulley writes about the group, Women Against Pornography, which, "coalesced in the late ‘70s out of several organizations, and was loosely led by feminist author Susan Brownmiller...and the militant feminist Andrea Dworkin, among others... Dworkin campaigned frequently on the subject, helping to draft a law in 1983 that defined pornography as a civil rights violation against women. The law was later overturned by an appeal court as unconstitutional."
McCulley writes later in her post: "Opposition to pornography was the link between two groups that typically had little else in common: the Christian Right and feminist activists. For a brief period in 1980s, they found themselves on the same page."
And what about today? For myself, I haven't heard a whole lot from either the church or the feminists about this issue.
As Steve pointed out in the latest podcast, around 60 percent of guys now feel that viewing pornography is perfectly okay (listen to find out why Lisa blames Chandler from Friends). Not only is this a problem because of the violence against women that pornography can encourage, but also, as Steve pointed out, that it makes "consumers" of men.
That phrase really struck me. God has designed and commanded men to protect women. But pornography turns God's design completely around, encouraging men to be "consumers"--to shop for, be entertained by and exploit women to serve their own purposes.
Thankfully, some in the church are taking a stand against pornography. Focus on the Family, specifically, created pureintimacy.org, to explain the biblical view of sex and also to give advice on how to overcome sexual addictions.
Though I couldn't find much about pornography at the National Organization for Women website, I did find one reference to a workshop at a 2005 conference called "Sexploitation: Trafficking, Prostitution and Pornography." The workshop description states that:
"Scholars and activists pinpoint pornography and the rising acceptance by the mainstream as a major cause for demand of prostitution and trafficking—especially in wealthy destination countries like the U.S...Only by focusing on ways to reduce demand will this destructive trade come to an end."
Who knows? Maybe 30 years later, though we still can't agree on much else, Christians and feminists could agree on the danger of pornography and fight it.
1. Sharon said the following at 2:39 PM on Apr 29:
I was appalled when I was talking to my (female) roommate a couple days ago and she wasn't at all concerned with men viewing pornography-she actually considered it perfectly acceptable. It was heartbreaking that women could possibly be okay with this.
2. brx said the following at 2:43 PM on Apr 29:
The One Thing Christians and Feminists Agreed On? I would have said the desire and need for respect. The difference is in how they advocate getting it. The Christian humbly asks to be respected for her Christ-like character. The feminist seeks to demand respect by wielding any power she can lay hold of -- often including the seductive power of her body. Because of the testimony of the "happy hooker" and playmates about the power and freedom they feel they have, I don't think we'll see the majority of feminists lining up to battle pornography and sexually explicit media anytime soon. It seems to be common human nature - the corrupt one - that we don't tend to pull our finger back from the flame until we feel the burn.
Grace & peace - it's needed.
3. Michele Samuelson said the following at 2:53 PM on Apr 29:
I took a women's studies (read: feminism 101) course in college, and found myself alone in believing that pornography and pornographic images were damaging to society and more anti-woman than anything else in mass media.
Even the coursebook didn't address it.
If institutionalized feminism were truly against pornography, it would fight against the prominence of it in campus bookstores; it would lead marches and rallies that ended in the trashing of copies of Maxim as well as Playboy; it would be enraged at women's magazines that peddle soft-core porn on their glossy covers. It would certainly not support The Vagina Monologues' blatant objectification of women. I really would like to hope that Andrew Dworkin and others would provide a certain kind of inspiration for aspiring feminist leaders - but they have a habit of forgetting the past (see Elizabeth Stanton's and Susan B. Anthony's positions on abortion vs today's feminist embrace of it).
Sadly, NOW's position is outdated among feminists; the days when Gloria Steinem infiltrated Playboy to expose objectifying attitudes and the base exploitation of young women are long over for feminism. Christians must take up the charge and not hope for much in the way of sympathy - it could be precisely because Christians call for modesty that feminism rejects it.
I'm really looking forward to Carolyn McCulley's new book!
4. Matthew said the following at 3:32 PM on Apr 29:
Actually, there are still a few anti-porn feminists running around (there's one example here.) But from what I've read, they have a hard time arguing for human dignity and respect when they don't have the Word of God to stand on.
5. Jethro said the following at 4:33 PM on Apr 29:
Heather,
You intimated that viewing pornography can cause men to become violent towards women. Is there any evidence to back this statement up?
I'm sure of course that you understand the differences between correlation and causation, and the impact of confounding variables such as drug and alcohol use, and socio-economic status, all of which would need to be controlled for in showing that causal connection...
6. Olive Hue said the following at 5:20 PM on Apr 29:
all the feminists i know dont have a problem with pornography.
7. Susan said the following at 8:15 PM on Apr 29:
It is very sad to see women, and especially young girls, obsessed with being raunchy. Not only do many of them think it is perfectly okay for the men in their lives to intake porn, they themselves often join along. Stripper culture (clothing, poles in bedrooms, workouts, etc.) has infiltrated the mainstream.
I think it is especially important for Godly women to engage in conversations with young girls in the church about how they are dealing with the culture around them that barrages them with images and ideas of how to behave and think.
8. Kate said the following at 10:09 PM on Apr 29:
As a Christian and a feminist, I'm absolutely delighted that someone is drawing attention to the harm pornography can inflict on women. It seems an obvious connection between the acceptability of pornographic films and the new wave of plastic surgeries for a women's private body parts. Apparently women go under the knife to look more 'normal' like the women in the videos their husbands watch.
And in case anyone's more curious about this issue, look up the name Linda Boreman. Her story is what riled me up about this issue in the first place.
If you can, try and picture a scrawny, feisty 17 year old trying and failing to convince an advisor to print an anti-porn editorial in her school paper. Those were great times . . .
9. Katie said the following at 2:01 AM on Apr 30:
Actually, the first thing I thought of when I read the title of your post was that feminists and Christians agree on the opposition of human trafficking - particularly, sex trafficking.
Granted, there are opposing camps within the anti-human trafficking world. Some groups advocate for prostitution to be illegal, while some groups proclaim that prostitution should be lawful and regulated. However, Christians and feminists do not fall neatly on these opposite sides. Yes, some feminist groups advocate the legalization of prostitution, but other feminist (and non-Christian) organizations resist the legalization of prostitution.
10. Irene M. said the following at 6:39 AM on Apr 30:
How can pornography be the only thing that feminists and Christians agree on? What about feminist Christians like myself or the women of Feminists for Life? I can't speak for other churches, but I know that in Catholicism there are a number of women who identify as feminist (Mary Ann Glendon) or could be considered a feminist role model (Mother Angelica) who maintain orthodox beliefs. I'm curious, is there anyone like that within the Protestant community?
11. Melissa said the following at 11:16 AM on Apr 30:
Just for information, there is no one definition of the term/type "feminist." Just as there are liberal conservatives and radical conservatives, there are conservative and radical feminists. There is also a growing segment of feminism called evangelical feminists, or Christian/Biblical feminists that is highly respected. Many of these feminists do oppose pornography because they see it as male domination. Try reading several of the top sociological journals on gender to understand exactly what is occurring with the modern feminist movement in modernity, you might be surprised to find that there are many conservative, Christian feminists that just want equal pay, equal rights, etc.
12. Louise said the following at 11:16 AM on Apr 30:
Not all pornography depicts female subjects.
Male-only pornography definitely exists.
13. Nelson said the following at 11:16 AM on Apr 30:
re: Jethro "You intimated that viewing pornography can cause men to become violent towards women."
Basically anything that changes the perspective of a woman from someone to protect to something to consume will promote (not cause) disrespect (violence, abuse, exploitation, slander, etc).
Pornography does exactly that. Instead of a person with whom you build a relationship with, pornography changes the woman to an object that you consume.
You can always turn the question around. How many marriage counselors advise couples in a difficult marriage to use pornography to build a better relationship? I hope none. Some things just don't need proof.
14. Jim H said the following at 11:40 AM on Apr 30:
Jethro,
I seemed to recall Dr. Dobson saying almost all serial killers indulged in pornography. While that data point is still a correlation and does not satisfy your desire for a clear causal relationship, free from confounding variables, I can offer at least one powerful anecdotal data point with clear causality: Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy associated the formation of his murderous urges with pornography.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/222008/
serial_killer_ted_bundy_blamed_pornography.html
Here is an excerpt from this article:
------------------------------------
"Bundy says in his interview with Dr. Dobson, that he wanted to get across a message that as a young boy of twelve or thirteen he came across pornography of a harder, more graphic nature. He had been first introduced to pornography at a very young age by his grandfather and there are some that say he may have been abused as a child.
Bundy said in the interview that he was not blaming pornography but he wanted people to understand how that kind of literature contributed and helped mould and shape his kind of violent behavior.
He explained that in the beginning pornography fuels that sort of thought process. Then he added, at a certain time, it is instrumental in crystallizing it into something. He said that he was at that point on the verge of acting out on this kind of thing.
He said it happened gradually, not over night. Bundy explained that his experience, with pornography that generally deals on the violent level with sexuality, is that once you become addicted to it, and he looked at it as an addiction, it caused him to keep looking for a more potent fix, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material."
-----------------------------------
Having struggled with online pornography myself, I am here to tell you it is poison to the soul and to your relationship with God and one MUST do whatever necessary to break free of it (counseling, accountability group, online filters, etc.). It never caused violent urges in me, but it contaminated my mind with absolute filth and it will consume you if you let it.
I don't have time to find other examples to convince you of causality between pornography and violence, but I urge anyone reading this to not take the dangers of pornography lightly.
15. Lola said the following at 12:26 PM on Apr 30:
Jethro, as there's nothing good about pornography there's really no point in requesting any sort of evidence to support any claims of the evils of viewing pornograpy.
I beg you to fight a more worthy battle.
Everyone should be against pornography. Lets keep praying about it.
16. P&P said the following at 12:37 PM on Apr 30:
I don't think that this brief blog post is the best venue for such a complex issue. I seem to recall that it was the Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes who is quoted as saying he knew pornography "when he saw it." Unfortunatley, this points out the subjectivity of the discussion.
I'm a feminist, and I do have a problem with what some people define as pornography. I've seen the Christian Right take this on as a "cause celeb" but the motivation seems to be equally opressing by locking women away and placing unreasonably tight controls on sexuality.
Jethro: There have been instances where women have been abused after the abuser watched pornography, usually of a violent nature. I also see it as a correlation rather than a causality, since there were likely violent tendencies in the abuser prior to exposure to the photo/video. However, I do think that easy access to this particular kind of pornography speeds up the manifestation of sexual violence.
The major issue I have with a lot of this situation is that with the advent of high speed internet and few parental controls, young people who are just beginning to explore issues of sexuality are being presented with images that are not "normal."
Finally, a note about Ted Bundy blaming "pornography" for his becoming a serial killer; the man was a sociopath. He was blatanly manipulating Dr. Dobson for his own twisted ends. It wasn't pornography that drove him to kill, it was his hatred of women, sadism and lack of any remorse.
17. Louise said the following at 12:48 PM on Apr 30:
To the author of comment 6,
We love you too!
:)
18. Louise said the following at 12:54 PM on Apr 30:
To the author of comment 7,
What do you mean by your statement that "workouts" are affiliated with stripper culture?
Could you please explain.
19. Jen said the following at 1:14 PM on Apr 30:
I think there are some other things that Christians and feminists agree on too, such as that women should have the right to vote, equal pay for equal work, and that domestic violence is bad. Christians often villify feminists, but they should remember that if it weren't for feminists, none of us women would be eligible to vote in the presidential election this year.
20. Heather Koerner said the following at 1:21 PM on Apr 30:
Jethro (#5),
Here's one source, the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography:
"The clinical and experimental evidence supports the conclusion that there is a causal relationship between exposure to sexually violent materials and an increase in aggressive behavior directed towards women … We have reached the conclusion, unanimously and confidentially … that substantial exposure to sexually violent materials … bears a causal relationship to anti-social acts of sexual violence and, for some subgroups, possibly to unlawful acts of sexual violence …"
I'm not sure if you really doubted the validity of the statement or if it just annoys you to see statements like that without links to the evidence. Either way, you might want to read the commission's report.
21. daniel said the following at 2:34 PM on Apr 30:
Jethro -- you stole my question!
22. Michele said the following at 2:38 PM on Apr 30:
In college, the question was posed this way: Do you believe in equality of the sexes? If so, you're a feminist.
Well, by that definition, I'd be one, but because of the popular connotations and images, and most of all because of women like Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, I refuse to identify as a feminist.
If pressed, I could say I'm an "equity feminist" (ala Christina Hoff Sommers), and I'm a 8-years now member of Feminists for Life. But I don't believe in about 99% of what was taught in women's studies long ago, and I know from experience that feminist groups like the Feminist Majority, NOW, and various Third Wave organizations will have nothing to do with self-identified Protestant Christians.
Places that have good information on "women's rights" without being grossly feminist in nature: http://www.iwf.org; http://www.cblpi.org; http://www.feministsforlife.org; anything written by Wendy Shalit or Carolyn Mahaney
23. Sarah said the following at 4:05 PM on Apr 30:
I think pornography is a great evil that needs to be fought against - and not just by women.
I think we can all make stands against it, one way or another, and little by little help raise the standard of decency in our country. It may be by asking the store manager as a concerned customer to remove magazines with pornographic images from their shelves, or by refusing to watch movies with pornography.
As Christians, I think we need to have high standards for our own lives and guard against that which corrupts. Although raunchy images seem to prevalent in our society, and it's hard not to walk through the mall or check your e-mail without seeing some provocative image, pornography should have no deliberate place in a Christian's life.
Your post stated that "around 60 percent of guys now feel that viewing pornography is perfectly okay." I'm so tired of Christian guys being involved with pornography!
The Bible teaches that, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (I cor. 10:13). So Christian guys have no excuse. Every time they purposely are involved with it, that's a choice they're making - one that's giving into sin and grieving the Holy Spirit. If someone was holding a gun to their head, I'm sure they would have enough self control!
Thank God for ministries like Focus who are making efforts in standing against it.
24. PLH said the following at 6:02 PM on Apr 30:
I agree with those who have said feminists and Christians have more in common and that the terms are not mutually exclusive! Christians and feminist both believe in the dignity and worth of women and historically have stood against sex trafficking and pornography. Also, feminists and Christians were among the first to speak out against domestic violence and rape.
As for whether pornography is harmful, to me it boils down to this. Pornography commercializes what is sacred-sex-and makes it into a consumer product. How can that not be harmful?
25. Jethro said the following at 7:36 PM on Apr 30:
Okay, clearly that was a somewhat controversial comment.
Lola (#15), I wasn't saying there was anything good about porn, but I think that intellectual honesty dictates that we do not blame porn as the cause of violent behavior.
Heather, the link you provided didn't work, I did however go to http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/harmfuleffects.cfm which I think was the site you were intending to link to?
If you read the comment you posted however you will note it said 'sexually violent material' not pornography as a blanket category. Moreover, the posted comment refers to 'substantial exposure'. The term 'substantial' is undefined and so basically meaningless.
In any event, I'm really not here to defend the pornographers, I like their work no more than you do, but as I said above, I do object to blanket statements without evidence. For what it's worth, the obscenitycrimes site hardly seems an impartial source and they provided a clipped abstract of the AG's report, seeing the report in full would be more meaningful.
26. Tami said the following at 9:53 PM on Apr 30:
Louise (18), I think that comment 7 is referring to exercise classes and DVDs that use strip tease as the mode of exercise.
27. Katie B said the following at 10:00 PM on Apr 30:
Michele (3 and 22) I think the issue of mainstream feminism isnt that porn isnt damaging, its that taking away the freedom to produce porn is more damaging. The greatest freedom is the freedom to make your own wrong descisions and accept your own consequences. he problems arise out of the argument, not directly from the issue itself, because now feminists have been forced to defend their decisions, not simply their right to make them, and when you have to defend something hard enough or long enough, you believe in it that much stronger, just ask the mormon missionaries.
I would never choose to pose for porn, but I have the ability not to choose because there is the option of doing so. I am rather conflicted about this because on the basic level I side with the feminists in holding as precious my freedom of choice, but I cannot go along with them in defending the choice I am free to make as a good one.
Side note- I took a womens studies course when working towards my first degree, as a brand-new christian I also felt out of place, I asked my mother(non christian) if she was a feminist and I have never forgotten what she told me, she said she is a feminist because she wants her daughters to have a better life than the life that the world tries to sell women. I concider myself a feminist like my mother.
28. R said the following at 10:18 PM on Apr 30:
Working against porn is a great thing, but why stop there? Why is it okay for women in the church (or anywhere!) to wear inappropriate clothing? Hopefully I do not need to spell out what many of my brothers and I are having to see & turn away from. I am thankful Joshua Harris wrote on this issue a while back. It is worth reading.
At the same time we should also work against much of the emotional porn material women are immersing themselves. While the idea has been mocked at it in the past, it still is a serious issue. I am thankful that a few women out there are taking this serious and removing themselves from the sensational media presentations.
29. Jim H said the following at 12:04 AM on May 1:
Jethro,
The quest for intellectual honesty is a noble quest, but I think you have descended to petty pedantry with statements like
"posted comment refers to 'substantial exposure'. The term 'substantial' is undefined and so basically meaningless."
Here is the sum of the argument in a nutshell:
1) Pornography is bad. Quibbling over exposure levels is silly.
2) ANY level of exposure causes harm. The more exposure, the more harm.
3) Obviously pornography which includes violent content is the worst of all, but even soft core pornogrophy is bad in that it dehumanizes women and turns them into objects of sexual gratification rather than daughters of God who are to be honored as such.
30. Loris said the following at 7:12 AM on May 1:
Louise, #18, I think what the author of #7 was trying to say is that pole dancing is now offered as an exercise class at some gym facilities. As a matter of fact, an ad for a pole dancing class was posted in my mail room last week.
31. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:45 AM on May 1:
Actually, feminists are part of the problem. Moreover, as opponents of Biblical masculinity, feminists are miles apart from Christians regarding the solution to this problem.
Fact is, feminism--and its influence at all levels of the education system and the workplace--has waged war against fundamental masculinity. Boys are being drugged--diagnosed with ADHD--for being boys, boys are getting excoriated for sexual harassment for kissing girls (even at their request), teenage boys who sleep with their teenage girlfriends are getting branded as "sex offenders", men who ask women out at work are running risk for sexual harassment, churches are even coming down on single men who romantically pursue single women.
For all their attacks against Christians for sexual repression, the feminists are the biggest promoters of it. All the while, pornography has become more readily-accessible due to groundbreaking technological advancements. Ergo, men--in general--will generally seek such means for sexual release, absent a compelling incentive. (Even then, a large number of Christian men are using it.)
So, while I agree with Koerner, I do so only in part. That is because while I agree with the feminists regarding the evils of porn, it is also true that the Christian and the feminist are miles apart in terms of the real solution to the problem.
32. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:25 AM on May 1:
Jethro: I would submit that--far from being a cause of violent behavior--porn is actually a weapon used in the course of it.
Many child molesters, for example, use porn to desensitize their young victims. With porn, it's easy for the molester to show the kid "hey...this is what your mom and dad do. Therefore there's nothing wrong with it."
Ergo, the connection is not so much about porn causing violent sex crimes, but rather that it serves as the weapon used in the commission of certain sex crimes.
Having said that, I would still oppose federal--and most state--attempts to regulate pornography. My reason: to do so would require a government enterprise just short of totalitarian, and a lot more than porn would be regulated.
33. Heather Koerner said the following at 8:30 AM on May 1:
Jethro (#25),
I appreciate your point about blanket statements. It's a practice that frustrates me at times, too--and it's good to hold ourselves as Christians to account.
That was the link that I was trying to get to. Since the quote was from the summary report, it probably won't have the statistical depth you seem to be looking for, but again I encourage you to find the original report and see the original studies that the summary is based on. You'll find the meat there.
Not really sure what point your comment about an "impartial source" is trying to make. If I believe sexual trafficking to be wrong and start a web site to inform people and then link to studies and reports that show the horror of it, what does it matter whether my web site or my opinion are neutral? What matters is whether the studies are conducted appropriately and whether the reports are true. Simply because I have an opinion doesn't make the information invalid.
And, yes, the link does refer to sexually violent material. I didn't think it necessary in my blog to differentiate between "levels" of porn (especially as studies have shown that watching "softer" porn can lead to escalation and desensitization--go to pureintimacy.org for more info on that), but instead chose to clarify by saying that pornography "can encourage" violence, not "does encourage." I believe the preponderance of evidence does back that statement up.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!
34. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:47 AM on May 1:
P&P wrote:
placing unreasonably tight controls on sexuality.
And that would be... ?
Lets see, I got a bit interested in this not so long ago and did some research, as Susan B Anthony would be considered one of my heros from a very young age, I had a hard time accepting her as a "feminist".
Apparently, there were 3 waves of feminism. The first wave would be the one I would identify with. However, I absolutely refuse to be termed a feminist. Much of what I believe (as a christian) is not in harmony with what 2nd and 3rd wave feminists have fought for. Sexual liberty (free of boundaries and consequences) is one of the most disturbing and most disgusting things that 2nd and 3rd wave feminists have fought for. Sex was designed for marriage. That's it. A direct consequence (causality...) of sex is pregnancy and children. Simple. (Don't get me started on Schvart's art project about the seperation of form and function).
Obviously, sex is pleasurable and should be enjoyed (Song of Songs). However, to think that we are free of the consequences and free to do it whenever and with whoever we please is just WRONG (not by my judgement, either).
35. Eliza said the following at 8:59 AM on May 1:
Sarah,
The post said 60% of "men", not "Christian men".
The difference between thinking pornography is "perfectly okay" and really struggling with it is WORLDS apart. Essentially Christian guys do feel like someone is holding a gun to their head; if they ever confessed and sought help and companionship from their fellow sinners they'd be blown apart by judgment and pity.
After reading a comment like yours, how is a guy ever supposed to think he's going to get grace from a woman? Christian women somehow have this attitude that pornography is more disgusting and repulsive (and frankly, unforgivable) than being passive-aggressive, vain, self-righteous and judgmental. I think being fed up with something someone else is sincerely struggling with is the opposite of helpful and as bad as the sin their fed up with.
Christian women's condemnation of men is some kind of backwards secular feminist thinking. Because you're against something "bad" that men do instead of men themselves, it's not like you're asserting your female superiority. Well, it definitely doesn't come off that way. You can chant "hate the sin, love the sinner" 'til the cows come home, but let me tell you, that sinner isn't feeling much love.
The fierce heat of Christian hate overwhelms whatever drops of love which may be proffered.
36. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:30 AM on May 1:
Heather Koerner (Post #20),
Not defending pornography in the least, but the term "casual relationship" implies just that, a (weak) correlation.
The problem with that term is one could feasibly come up with all sorts of things that are "casual relationships". For example, as a hyperbole, there is a "casual relationship" between ice cream consumption and criminal activity in the summertime. Does that mean that we ought to ban ice cream because it causes people to commit more crimes?
The problem is that some people who do view pornography commit crimes against women. Moreover, sometimes it is motivated by porn (e.g. Ted Bundy's confession). But not everyone does, or even a majority. So one cannot say that pornography "causes" violence against women, or at least as strongly as saying that smoking "causes" lung cancer. That is what Jethro is saying.
37. PLH said the following at 11:15 AM on May 1:
I think the entire debate is a matter of semantics. There never has been one "feminist" movement but rather competing visions of what feminism is and a struggle by different groups to enact their vision of feminism. Radical feminism (the strain most people identify with feminism) is only one strain and never represented a majority of feminists. It gets the most media attention because of its radicalism.
38. Jim H said the following at 11:26 AM on May 1:
Mike,
I don't think anyone here has made the claim that pornography leads to violence against women in ALL cases. The point is that it CAN lead to violent urges in SOME people and can also be used as a weapon as Amir said (a keen insight I had not thought of).
But the main point is this (which seems to have been lost on some who prefer to quibble over causality, correlation coefficients, and degrees of impartiality):
In ALL cases, pornography is destructive to your soul. Even if it does not cause violent urges, it results in filling your mind with impure sewage and reducing women to sexual objects as I posted before. Nothing good can ever come from pornography and it has no place among Christians.
39. obewan said the following at 1:06 PM on May 1:
Why is it that men usually take all the heat on this subject, when many women are obsessed with watching soaps or reading trashy romance novels? Either way, it is all in the battle for the mind as I see it. Porn does not have to be visual. It can be anything that distorts or contaminates our worldview away from a Godly perspective on male-female relationships.
40. Chris > said the following at 2:32 PM on May 1:
To Irene M. (#10): I'd be curious to hear your definition of a "Christian Feminist."
To Jim H. (multiple posts): This is great stuff and i think that most would be quite grateful to you for posting such common sense, get-to-the-heart-of-it responses. Thanks so much for that and for the honesty in sharing that you've battled in your own struggle against porn.
Seems that, as is so often the case, so many people tend to reduce issues to some cut-and-dried matter of semantics and just try to "score points" for their chosen side. When more men have enough guts to say something like, "I've battled with this personally and know first-hand the damage it can do..." then it gets personal, as it should be. These issues affect living, breathing, feeling human beings and are far more than just expressing one's opinion for the sake of argument or for, perhaps, trying to justify their own behavior as "okay."
Jim H. expressed his personal experience as a man and it's good for people to hear that. I'm pretty sure that, conversely, there are also women who could speak up about the heartache and heartbreak that they have been made to experience by men who indulge in pornography.
Ask the wife who feels she's expected to "perform" or feels used like an object because of a man's pre-occupation with porn, rather than being able to feel like she can love and be loved with tender passion, protected, and highly valued as the love of his life. I'm sure they're out there... Her observations would be so much more than semantics - they would be the very heart of the matter.
Thanks, also, to Heather for your insightful posts!
41. Louise said the following at 4:02 PM on May 1:
Re comments 26 and 30:
I have never heard of "pole dancing workouts/exercise classes" or "strip tease exercise classes/DVDs!"
And I am a workout aficianado.
42. PLH said the following at 5:16 PM on May 1:
Obewan-I agree that sometimes trashy novels are harmful to women. However, trashy novels and soap operas do not involve the exploitation of the individuals involved. In pornography, two individuals are having sex in the genre. So, to me, it is always exploitative as a genre while the line is more fuzzy with romance novels.
43. Lola said the following at 5:25 PM on May 1:
Dearest Louise,
Are you saying that strip tease exercise classes don't exist just because you haven't come across any?
44. Christina (in green) said the following at 5:41 PM on May 1:
I wouldn't classify romance novels and soap operas as "exploitive" so much as fostering and encouraging the indulgence of unrealistic expectations in relationships.
45. Katy said the following at 6:52 PM on May 1:
Several people have mentioned feminists against pornography, and I'd like to highlight Catharine MacKinnon's work as an excellent example of a (radical) feminist's work against pornography. MacKinnon has worked closely with Andrea Dworkin in the past.
One early post stated that feminists and Christians approach the probem og pornography differently: "The Christian humbly asks to be respected for her Christ-like character. The feminist seeks to demand respect by wielding any power she can lay hold of -- often including the seductive power of her body."
This, I think, is slightly misguided. As many people have noted, there are as many different "versions" of feminism as there are of Christianity. Many radical feminists, in the tradition of MacKinnon for instance, are concerned with women being treated as equal citizens and not made subordinate to men. Whether you're an egalitarian or a hierarchalist, wanting women to be recognized as fully autonomous citizens seems to be something Christians would jump on board with.
46. Amir Larijani said the following at 9:28 PM on May 1:
Katy: On the other hand, McKinnon's definition of rape--"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated"--would be remotely incompatible with Biblical sexuality.
Quite frankly, these loose definitions--and the impositions of society by cultural elitists such as McKinnon--contribute to the proliferation of pornography.
She effectively demonizes husbands--as if they are responsible for how their wives "feel".
Fact is, as a woman, you cannot be responsible for how your husband "feels", any more than your husband can be responsible for how you "feel". And to impose your feelings on him in order to define him as a rapist, is exactly the brand of feminism that foments porn.
Ergo, folks like McKinnon--with their feminized definitions of rape and expectations of men--are part of the problem, in spite of their otherwise rightful objection to porn.
47. Louise said the following at 5:59 AM on May 2:
Okay, I just looked up "pole dancing" on wikipedia.
Up until now the only "pole dancing" I had ever heard of was around the May Pole (which coincidentially would have occured yesterday).
See, one is never too old to LEARN!
48. Katie B said the following at 9:24 AM on May 2:
obewan: Both men and women have the freedom to make a bad descision to veiw/read the stuff. generally society doesnt condemn men for just watching porn, but for perpetuating something that might be damaging to women.
Conversely people avocating the right to create porn are generally fighting for the freedom of the woman to make the descision to participate in it, whether or not that is a good or bad decision.
I personally would rather have the responsibility for my actions.
Amir (31), we can start slinging mud about who is more damaged by society and who should be blamed, but thats besides the point. How do you think the kind of feminists that you mentioned got that way? victims can easily be perpetrators when they are fed up with being victimized. For the record, I do think that they are misguided by their anger and hurt, and that they do damage both biblical masculinity and feminity. But before we list their faults, we have to take into concideration that maybe they were provoked? After centuries of being taught that to be feminine is to be weak, what do we expect except that they would shed feminitity? Its tempting when the alternative is simple submission to being objectified with catcalls and harrassment every day on the street, being groped on the subway, fighting of rapists, being paid less for the same work... What have women been taught to do about that? ignore, try to avoid certain situations and clothing and actions, both mean submitting to the reality that 'boys will be boys' or fighting back?
I think Christians have a great responsibility to feminists, to model true biblical equality and mutual respect and submission, to fight for the opressed and heal the hurting. rahter than fight against those who are fighting the right battle with the wrong weapons, join and help the cause with truth!
49. Eliza said the following at 10:12 AM on May 2:
To everyone who thinks "trashy novels" aren't porn--apparently you've never read a trashy novel. "Trashy" does not refer to bad writing or dumb plots or "unrealistic expectations". Lots of sex, IN DETAIL. More detail than a video could ever offer.
50. PLH said the following at 11:15 AM on May 2:
Eliza-the point is not that novels don't have sex in detail. The point is its describing sex while pornographic films actually have people engaging in them. That is what makes the production of such materials more harmful. The consumption of both can have negative effects but the production of porn is worse on the people involved and is inherently degrading to the participants.
51. k. said the following at 1:17 PM on May 2:
There are probably many topics they can agree on: equal pay for equal work, the ability to sign contracts and conduct financial transactions (such as having a credit card in your own name and not your husband's), the right to vote, etc.
52. Chris > said the following at 1:45 PM on May 2:
I did not make a special effort to go dig out an article connecting pornography with violence. I didn't have to - one just popped up today on my homepage, which is a small hometown newspaper Stateside (we serve overseas). The article is pasted further down in this post.
It seems rather naive for people in this day and age to say that they really believe there's no connection - at least if they see any kind of daily news in any form - because these kinds of news reports/articles are everywhere - in print, on TV and online! Here's the article:
-----------------
A 48-year-old man will stand trial on charges of abusing a 12-year-old girl and possession of child pornography.
"John Doe" (renamed for this post), of [small town],is charged with involuntary deviate sexual intercourse with a child, indecent assault, aggravated indecent assault, endangering the welfare of children, corruption of minors and 20 counts of sexual abuse of children. A preliminary hearing on those charges was held Friday before [the local magistrate].
County detectives seized a personal computer owned by "John Doe" after a referral from the county's children's bureau. The computer was among the items examined by [an officer of the local Police Department], a computer forensic analyst.
"I found approximately 1,100 images of prepubescent females in various stages of undress," [the officer] testified.
Court documents said the investigation began in January when the girl reported to the Children's Bureau that "Doe" took nude photographs of her for more than a year.
"He said how I was really pretty and should be a model," the girl testified. "He kept saying I needed to keep it quiet, because it was a surprise."
-------------------
How many of these types of incidents have we all seen in the headlines? Sad to say, for most people, probably way too many. Still seems to me to come down to an attempt to somehow justify consuming pornography by trying to paint it as harmless. Too many facts virtually scream that it just isn't.
53. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:13 PM on May 2:
Katie B: says:
Some were victimized, but most were indoctrinated. Betty Friedan was no rape victim; nor was Gloria Steinem.
The feminist worldview is embedded in almost every academic department at every university. Even the seminaries are hotbeds of it.
It is embedded in every public school, and even many a private school. This is why 6-year-old boys are being excoriated for "sexual harassment" for the capital crime of kissing a classmate on the cheek (at her request). This is why aggressive boys are being diagnosed with ADHD and drugged.
My point is that--while many feminists would find common ground with Christians regarding the evils of porn--the two are worlds apart in the solution to the problem.
In fact, the feminist "solution"--to attack masculinity--only encourages more proliferation of pornographic media.
How feminists became feminists is irrelevant, although I take umbrage to the suggestion that they were all "provoked" by abuse. Some are victims; most were recruited or indoctrinated.
To blame feminism on men would be intellectually dishonest, just as it would be similarly dishonest to blame the occurence of rape on the feminist.
Each sex acts out its share of rebellion. Some feminists were abused by men; most were simply recruited to the cause. I've seen that dynamic in every university, and even the seminary that I attended.
54. a sassy sister said the following at 9:35 PM on May 2:
simply put, feminism is a natural response to a spiritual problem. The problem that disturbs me is when we take our differences and assign worth, rank or value to our differences apart from what Scripture dictates. The church unfortunately has forgotten that men and women are supposed to work together to fulfill God's purposes for His glory, not for one to lord power over another. Ultimately, as Christians, men and women are both subject to the Lordship of Christ. I am a woman. I can never be a man. But our differences and men and women doesn't demonstrate value or rank.
man or woman, absolute power corrupts absolutely....
55. John the Aggie said the following at 11:22 PM on May 2:
To those who are quibbling over semantics, definitions, and causality... give me a break. We can all agree that porn is vile and terrible thing without having to dive into such an esoteric discussion!
Porn is a HUGE problem, almost a defining one for this generation of Christian men. I don't personally know a Christian young man that has been entirely innocent in this area (and I know literally dozens of good Christian guys). It's an epidemic, and anything that can be done to stop it or slow it down is greatly needed!
And I find it interesting that the vast majority of posts so far have been from women. Maybe it makes guys uncomfortable to deal with something that hits so close to home?
56. Katie B said the following at 12:06 AM on May 3:
Amir: I think what you are noticing when these feminists have been attacking masculinity is probobly more accurately they are usurping masculinity. I assume these women were not being stereotypically feminine and girly. Frankly, our culture at large has reinforced the message that femininity is lacking something, it is weaker, less important, less able, throughout history.
So if women have bought the prevelant, though now much more subtle, lie that femininity is inherantly bad, then of course they are going to shed it, take on masculinity, but this in itself is, as you noticed, an attack on the masculinity of men. It also means that a woman doesn't have to be physically violated before she can be a victim. I am a feminist, which I define as someone who embraces femininity while while fighting against the attacks on it, I have never been successfully raped, do I have a right to still personally believe that women should be given the respect and dignity that they were created for? I certainly have the right to feel incensed for my sisters who have endured more than I have, and will fight for them. I dont generally like to pick sides because it is high time this was resolved, but I align myself with those who recognize injustice and want to do something constructive about it, feminists, anti feminists, apathetics, men, and women fall on both sides of that division.
I am saying this not to defend the actions of the women you have met and presumably been offended or attacked by, or to lay blame, but because that is the dynamic, these things always have sociological patterns. This is a sin cycle, with mens and womens sins triggering each other. so what do we do about it? As you have demonstrated, these radical feminists, while trying to make themselves heard, are still not being taken seriously, especially by men, whom I am sure you would agree that for all the suffering they have dealt with because they live in this same fallen world, are still the dominant and privileged in our institutions and society. So it must be the men who break the cycle, not because they are to blame, fault has become irrelevant, but because they are the God ordained initiators, and the societally powerful. whether or not they are helping or hurting, it seems that these women are the ones fighting and the anti feminists are the ones defending their ground. If men were to empower women in their femininity and equality, protect them from abuses and defend their rights, what might happen?
Even if the feminists desist in their attacking, the problems that need to be adressed will not be solved, and frankly, I think complacency is worse.
57. John said the following at 8:01 AM on May 3:
Jesus drew a line in the sand...and yes he forgive's, but he also said "go and sin no more"....he heals us and warn's us in the same breath..."drop and walk"... so to speak..
It's not a debate....it's a command.
It's not to be discussed on capital hill or any other place of parliament.
Pornography, video or magazine, stripper's, brothel's....are all form's of prostitution....which the Holy 3 all say "No!"...
It does not promote the truth of the bond of intimate marriage and it's strengthening power between a man and woman in the light of that which is the truest form of love between the two....and that which is what should be taught to our children...
It is the opposite....and a stumbling block to our children...
It promote's promiscuity, fornication, and loyalty to no one else but the self...non committal, non accountable....It is vane, selfish, self centered, self absorbed, and for the soul purpose of financial gain...
It is a distraction by those who promote it, to take the focus out of your eye's, to what is important in life and the true meaning of living...
It is not "educational material"...
They are not "guidance couselor's to give therapeutic instruction"...
It is the manipulation of mental, emotional, physical and spiritual sense's to dominate and control in the most unhealthy sense...
It is a form of revenge, an act of disregard of authority, a blatant disregard for anyone else, it is corrupt, and is a hinderance to productive growth of all nation's, physically and financially....
If it goes unchecked, it can be debillitating to such level's, that yes, it can and will, end your life...
It does not build, that is not it's intention, but rather to seek and destroy...and yes, it does provoke a reactionary response of ill intention to those who are doing the "taunting", it's what they are trying to do...
only what they don't see is that they are only a victim of there own demise...
but allow God's grace in, to not respond, and remember that for you woman out there of any age, there are men that do believe in the true form of a relationship between a man and a woman...and that also goes for you men of any age...
sin beget's sin...you don't have to cross the line, and find out the hard way, for it is what you will find...deter from it, drop and walk, for there is nothing there but ruin.......think about what is truly in your heart and mind? just be honest with yourself and other's, and ask yourself, "what do I really want for my life?
The truth triumph's over lie...
right triumph's over wrong...
good triumph's over evil...
do not confuse the world's view of legalized prostitution, and the "sexploitation" of the sexual slave trade, of those who are truly forced at "gunpoint", against thier will, for there is a difference!
The Holy 3, and the angel's will guide you, and keep you out...
for those who want out, they will lead you out if you allow them to...
What are you willing to tell to a child?....Of any age, on any day, at any given hour?
God bless and keep you safe...
58. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:20 AM on May 3:
Katie B
I am a feminist, which I define as someone who embraces femininity while while fighting against the attacks on it
If that's the case, then you'd be fighting against the vast majority of the feminist movement.
Frankly, our culture at large has reinforced the message that femininity is lacking something, it is weaker, less important, less able, throughout history.
That's because, biblically, that is largely in part what femininity is (minus the less important). It is CRUCIAL that femininity and masculinity are DIFFERENT. To deny that difference and to attempt to define feminity in terms of masculinity, able to be both masculine and feminine, is foolish, a lie, and unbiblical.
If you want to fight for feminity as a feminist, you will be taking on women that think men and women should be treated as exactly the same, only that women should also be treated as women. You can't have it both ways. So which battle are you going to fight? I've chosen to fight that men and women are BOTH valuable, but we are DIFFERENT. We do not have the same strengths, the same weaknesses, and we don't have the same function (form and function =p)
I'd like to fight for the value of feminity on its own merits. It is weaker, yes. Does that leave it without its own strength that can change the world? I certainly don't think so. The world needs women just as much as it needs men. But it needs women to be FEMININE. Not another spin on what the feminist movement so passionately hates - which is masculinity.
59. Rachael said the following at 9:36 AM on May 3:
Re: "Porn is a HUGE problem, almost a defining one for this generation of Christian men. I don't personally know a Christian young man that has been entirely innocent in this area (and I know literally dozens of good Christian guys)."
-->On a podcast the question was asked about when to tell the girlfriend about past problems with this. If the guy never does tell the girl, is it appropriate for the girl to ask and if so when? And can this be a 'red flag' if most every guy struggles with it? Is it only a 'red flag' if there is no change?
60. Amir Larijani said the following at 2:12 PM on May 3:
Katie:
Whether you are trying to or not, you are (1) minimizing the contributions of feminists to the problem of pornography--in spite of many of their opposition to it--and (2) ignoring the fundamental differences between Christians and feminists regardng the solution to the problem.
And if you think it's just about NOW or NARAL or radical feminists, then you are badly mistaken. The feminist agenda is embedded in every level of our education system, and permeates our seminaries. It's not about "women I have met" or "have attacked me".
It's about the textbooks that undermine masculinity by overtly promoting feminist dogma.
It's about undermining traditional values by promoting the feminization of boys, and empowering schools to diagnose and drug boys for being boys.
It's about otherwise conservative pastors who--while attending seminary--tacitly accept the dogma that women are feminists because men weren't real Godly men, or that divorces are always the man's fault. They go on to promote such malarkey from pulpits and in counseling rooms.
It's about churches that discourage men from seeking mates; it's about churches that put women down for aspiring to marry.
It's about parents and ministers who push their daughters to take on large student loan burdens to pursue professional careers that will force them to work well into their 30s before they get a payback, thus damaging their marital/family prospects.
My point is that reclaiming masculinity will not happen overnight, and will require an effort by the Church that is diametrically opposed to the feminist agenda, which undermines both masculinity and femininity.
It would also be diametrically opposed to much of the tripe that is taught in Bible schools and seminaries, as the feminist understanding of "equality" is not congruent with the Biblical one.
That the feminist opposes porn is irrelevant if their agenda only foments its proliferation.
The same is also true for the Church, which has bought into that Jezebellian agenda.
61. Katie B said the following at 6:07 PM on May 3:
Christina: I am aware that I am not aligned with the feminist movement, I mentioned that in the same paragraph as I defined feminism. Feminism is no longer a unified movement with a single agenda, it is an ideology that is interpreted and individualized by each person who holds to it. Amir, that may help you understand how the ideologies have influenced the institutions and systems.
Also Christina, is your church teaching that women are lacking something because they have no masculinity? That is more influenced by Freud than the bible, which teaches that women reflect the image of God, in fact, wisdom is personified as female in proverbs. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that. In what way does your church teach that women are weaker? (not arguing, just interested) I fully believe that women and men are different, and have different things to offer, As a women, femininity is my strength. If I understand that God created me to be equally important to my brothers, then I have to assume he has not withheld his gifts or his authority from me, and that I am also equally responsible before him to exercise them. But I will do it in a feminine way.
62. Katie B said the following at 6:16 PM on May 3:
Amir: I have been trying to keep this discussion from becoming a one upping contest on who has been hurt more by who. Most of your points are valid, they are horrible, but how does it help men reclaim their masculinity to vilify the feminists? And frankly, you seem to have missed the complexity of the issue. Sin doesn't occur in a vacuum. For example, you are absolutely right that boys are over diagnosed and over treated for ADHD, something I agree with you needs to be rectified. But its complex, that situation applies mainly to white middle and upper class boys. the flip side is that when girls and minorities have learning difficulties, they are routinely denied proper help, testing, or treatment, and are more often held back in school even when high intelligence is verified. Minorities and impoverished are even less likely to get anything and are more often labeled as retarded.
I fully agree with you that the popular cultural idea that women and men are not simply equal, but have no real differences, or that women should gain dominance over men is pervasive, unbiblical, and harmful. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think that the feminist ideology happened in a vacuum, that the dynamics of sociological gender messages influences how people behave and think. In this case, we see historical oppression of women, as I am sure you can agree, I think that the historical messeges and their modern residue continues to influence peoples beliefs. Also, as I mentioned above, feminism is not a special interests group who all agree on their mission or doctrine and have a unified agenda. the very fact that it is so pervasive means that it is not an attacking army that needs to be defeated, but a misunderstanding that needs to be explored to find the truth.
I am fully aware that there are feminist advocating pornography, and I fully disagree with their assertions. that doesn't mean that I don't understand why they feel they need to. I talked about that in a previous post. As I am sure you would agree, understanding the heart and motivations of the issues is crucial to solving them. It is not only possible, but necessary, to understand others struggles without having to agree in order to bring the truth, the healing, and the freedom of Christ.
I am also interested to here your views on the reclaiming of masculinity; is it purely the attacks by feminists that have caused the problem? Is it possible for men to do so personally without having to trump those trying to undermine it? If feminism was completely eradicated, would that be enough to solve the problem? were men inherently Godly before the women became feminists? and are men completely innocent of any harm toward women?
I ask because I am part of a womens small group that seeks to rediscover and understand the true Godly femininity, in doing so we have all come to the conclusion that we must be both feminists and reject the status quo of our treatment everyday in the world, and the messages we hear in the evangelical culture, which encourages us to give up our desires and dreams, our God given gifts and personalities to become their twisted version of proverbs thirty one, and also separate ourselves from the worldly feminists; in order to be true to the women that we were created to be.
63. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:25 PM on May 4:
Katie: I am quite aware of the complexities of the problem. On the other hand, you are on a rabbit chase that has departed from the fundamental point of this topic: the premise that Christians and feminists agree on the issue of pornography.
It is my contention that (a) the feminists, unwittingly, have contributed to the problem by attacking masculinity, and (b) therefore are miles apart from Christians in terms of resolving the pornography issue.
In terms of reclaiming masculinity, that has to begin with the Church. That means the Body must purge the feminist dogma from their midst. By that, I mean confronting (a) the distorted understanding of "equality" that the feminist brings to the table, (b) promoting Biblical Patriarchy--Ephesians 5 responsibilities of both parties, and that includes husbandly leadership and wifely submission to the husband's leadership, all in the context of mutual commitment to the well-being of each other, (c) the premise that women are not to usurp the authority of men in the Church (and that women in positions of ministerial authority is best the exception to the rule).
From a societal standpoint, that means (a) confronting the system that udnermines parental authority, (b) confronting an agenda that seeks to rob boys of their masculinity, and (c) promotes the destruction of children in the name of "equality".
As for fighting "injustice" and promoting "equality", keep in mind that the feminist has compeletely different understandings of both terms.
To most--not all--feminists--a parent spanking a child is "injustice". Moreover, the large majority of feminists place a high premium on the support of abortion rights, which has destroyed over 50 million children since 1973.
50+ million deaths...that's one heck of a price we've paid for the petty feminist understanding of "equality", which is a perversion to any Biblical understanding of the word.
Feminism is a cancer in both the Church and the world, and I will drink to its demise.
64. IMO said the following at 8:34 AM on May 5:
Katie B (#62),
What do you mean when you say:
"the messages we hear in the evangelical culture, which encourages us to give up our desires and dreams, our God given gifts and personalities to become their twisted version of proverbs thirty one,"
Can you please provide specific examles of "twisted version of Proverbs 31." I've read several commentaries on Proverbs 31 and would like your point of view on them. Thanks!
65. Katie B said the following at 9:35 PM on May 5:
Amir, I understand your position a little better now, but again, I dont want this to become a contest of who is more wrong. when both parties feel victimized and try defend themselves, they cant solve the underlying problem.
I have never argued that mainstream feminism has benifitted the world, but as a woman who was not raised to believe in inherent female subordination, I understand their motivations, at its formation, feminism was a reaction to some very real injustices. But I get frustrated with the way both feminism and the church attack each other, because both have valid concerns, even if their actions and results are wrong. When we attack feminism as a whole, then we ignore what they were reacting to in the first place. I am sure you would not advocate taking away a womans right to vote, it was a legitimate injustice that they couldnt at one time. Imagine with me for a second, if a woman (or anyone) votes for a poor candidate, does that mean that they shouldnt have the right to vote at all? There is a big problem with that because then the system is much more succeptable to corruption and dishonesty; we would never think to do that to anyone, without the right to choose and be involved they essentially become less a part of the society.
In terms of pornography, whichever way they go, the issue for feminists is still that they want the right to be full and involved as people with inherent dignity. On one hand, porn objectifies women, on the other the lack of the right to choose to participate in porn takes away their personal responsibility, they then do not even have the right to make the good decision. The defense of porn in itself stems psychologically from the fact that it is easier to decriminalize the choice rather than defend your right to make the choice in the first place, no matter what the choice involves, its the same with abortion, pro choice advocates do not shout "Kill More Babies" at their rallies. I could never advocate abortion or porn, but if my right to choose to make the decision to do the right thing, to not engage in porn or abortion, then I am no worse then the woman who does, because I did not choose goodness, I simply took the wider gate. Do I think that porn and abortion should be acceptable? absolutely not! do I think that the problems will be solved by outlawing them? absolutely not, even in eden, man and woman still had the right to make the wrong decision, the effects were devastating, but I have never heard a christian express that their free will itself was wrong. I am an idealist, I dont want to have to give up my right to personal holiness,which I would do if I was never allowed to make the Godly decision, I dont want to live in a christian totalitarian state, which is what happens when that is taken to its logical extreme. But I also dont want to live in a world of such devastating sin, which is what we are approaching when we not only legalize, but condone, all sins. Neither one is justice or righteousness.
By villifying one extreme and rushing toward the other, you still lose they righteousness and personal accountability of each person before God. Maybe thats what Christians and feminists have in common! I do think we should fight injustice and promote equality, but both feminists and most conservative and fundamentalist Christians have taken instead to fighting eachother. THAT is my frustration. Believe me, I have had eerily similar conversations with feminists, still advocating for justice and accountability. the real mistake is both parties turn the discussion into 'I am right and you are wrong' instead of 'what is true to the dignity and person that I have been created to be.' Paul talks about this concept a lot in romans, ' should we sin so that grace may abound?' or should we live under the law, where there is no room for grace? Should we who keep kosher and condemn those who eat freely? or should those who eat anything look down on and provoke those who who do not? Romans Chapter fourteen is great, sometimes its not about who is right but instead its about living in community and treating people according to where they are, both of which are very difficult in polarized disputes. In order to make a genuine, God-based difference, as you want to do, it is of course nessesary to put aside our own agenda and personal investment, and to be the messenger of freedom and healing, as we see in Christs treatment of sinners, because it is Gods kindness that leads us to repentance.
I know this is long, conciseness isnt one of my strenghts. ;)
66. Katie B said the following at 10:55 PM on May 5:
IMO: maybe it is different in other areas, but I and my friends have become increasingly dissatisfied by people who seem to be trying to convince us to be satisfied with 'our place,' I have heard messages about what women should do, what they shouldnt do, how they should see themselves, what they have to offer. most of the time what they are saying isnt wrong on its own, but it often turns our lives into recipes, but what about the women who need more? I hope one day to have a Godly husband and children to pray for and support, and in fact be many of the things I am told to aspire to. But these things are often portrayed as incompatable with other things that I dream of. For example my deep love of historical theology and liturgical traditions and my passion to see them renewed for revival today (I have even been told to my face by a stranger that I am going to hell for leading a ministry team and studying theology). Other women have other passions that are not sinful, even positive contributions to the Body of Christ and the world, but if they are not directly involved in marriage or children or helping other women with their marriages or children, they are devalued in women.
A specific example of twisted proverbs 31... praising woman for getting up before dark to provide food for her family by demeaning any "considering a field and buying it, and planting out of her earnings." The '10 ways to be a godly woman' variety also has problems in that it prescribes what a Godly woman does, but in that kind of prescription it takes away the importance of the womans value in relationship, she becomes one who offers, who does things in order to find being, rather than being a Godly woman and acting out of the overflow of the heart. See the difference? If I do not do all the things in proverbs31 am I still worth more than rubies? What if I am not married? If we interpret that proverb as a woman being worth so much because of what she does, then she has no worth on her own, which contradicts genesis, where woman was declared good before she did anything at all. Or woman are defined only in relationship, and not on their own, then they do not have any personal standing before God, you get the belief that woman need a man to 'walk them to the door of heaven,' which would mean logically that women cannot be held personally responsible for their actions, since they cannot act autonomously. Its tiring to have to earn your personal worth, to feel like you fail unless you live up to the seeming impossible standard of the proverbs 31 woman. No wonder women need so many books on how to balance their lives and encouragement on how to be content where they are.
67. IMO said the following at 9:44 AM on May 6:
Katie B, thanks for replying!
I might be a little confused on a couple of your commenst. Do you look at Proverbs 31 and thing it applies to both married and single women? You can be a godly woman whether you are married or single. Godly woman does not necessarily mean married woman. Proverbs 31 is specific toward the married woman.
As for, ---"If we interpret that proverb as a woman being worth so much because of what she does, then she has no worth on her own", --I thought that was an interesting perspective. I went to look at Proverbs 31 and found the following:
"A wife of noble character who can find? "
So...
I see that verse like this: Within the wife's heart, her character flows. One can identify her (the wife's) noble character by her actions.
Hmm lots of food for thought...
68. Jacob M. said the following at 11:37 AM on May 6:
I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I noticed that several commenters have assumed that Christians share feminists' support for women's suffrage and "equal pay for equal work" among other things, without being contradicted.
These commenters should not be so quick to make this assumption. Some of us have begun to realize that women's voting and entering on a large scale into the workplace have been two of the major driving forces behind the trend of our society away from traditional morality and toward nanny-statism, which has resulted in the progressive loss of our Christian culture. I say that women should neither be able to vote nor be viewed as equals to men in the workplace.
69. Randy said the following at 10:41 PM on Jun 6:
Why are Christians so obsessed with other people's sexual private life ?
If you worked to clean up the immorality in your own churches, that would be a start.