Striking Young Men Who Use Online Matching Services: Episode #14
by Motte Brown on 04/25/2008 at 5:18 PM
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Roundtable -- 3:10
Speaking of eHarmony, it's been almost two months since we hosted four single gals to discuss their online dating experiences. When I listened again, I noticed a lot of talk about "freaky" matches. Now you can hear the guy's side of things. This week, we invited four "striking" young men to speak about their experiences with online dating. I think you'll appreciate the balanced perspective they provide.
Culture -- 21:32
We were honored this week to have Focus on the Family President and CEO Jim Daly join us to discuss his book, "Finding Home: An Imperfect Path to Faith and Family." Let's set the stage: Jim's parents were alcoholics and divorced when he was 5. His mom died of cancer when he was nine. He entered the foster care system until his alcoholic father showed up again at age 11. But as Jim says, "God's hand was on us." Listen to find out the rest of the story in this inspirational segment.
Hungry Years -- 35:37
What's it like to graduate with honors and then have to slip on a drug store vest as a first job? This week, Patrick Dunn looks back at what he and his college degree did in his first years on the job market. And how his frustrations caused him to focus on other things during that season -- other things like ... waiting.
Inbox -- 41:48
This week's Inbox is about online pornography. But it's not really about overcoming it; it's when to tell your girlfriend you used to struggle with it. It's a difficult question but Steve Watters handles it with sensitivity and gives the questioner some great thoughts on what to do.
I think you'll be encouraged by this week's episode. And we'd love to hear from you with your thoughts or questions. So write us at editor@boundless.org.
1. Adam T. said the following at 6:34 PM on Apr 25:
Woah, you guys have, like, freaked me out about online dating! I was just about to try it for the first time - and, I mean, I'm still gonna - but all this stuff about people misrepresenting themselves and all that? I never even thought that people might do that.
2. Marc said the following at 7:11 PM on Apr 25:
As one of the guys said, online dating works for some and is not for everyone.
I personally do not like online dating. If anyone else wants to do it, though, they have my best wishes.
That's my stance.
3. Rachael said the following at 7:25 PM on Apr 25:
Maybe I'll try online dating when I reach or pass the ________ year mark...oh, that's a little more than 2 years away...or not...hmmmm...
Doesn't seem like my ideal method, though I've never been a member of an online dating site...I'm planning to give the natural approach a couple more years at least...one thing that would be nice about it is that the info. from the profile or whatever is like a 1st step in the data collecting :) hmm.
4. BDB said the following at 10:53 PM on Apr 25:
Interesting thought brought up - online dating as a way to avoid collateral damage from a break-up. So we have conflicts in two theories. One the one hand, the Joshua Harris crowd wants to do everything in "groups." Yet to avoid damaging the group dynamic, these guys do their dating outside the group. The result is people in the group are not dating those they meet at church, just using their church group as the "safe" place to return to after a break-up. What an elegant explanation to why people at church aren't dating each other...
5. BDB said the following at 11:11 PM on Apr 25:
What if you put an eNTj and an
6. Rachael said the following at 11:41 PM on Apr 25:
Those men are brave for talking about online dating. Good for them :)
It is interesting that dating doesn't always or often happen in immediate circles...
Re: the comment that "there's no way they're going to go for me", and as for the looks aspects--> while that might be true often times, remember that for many it might be the personality or connection that could overrule looks, perhaps more often in offline settings. My guess is that active daters would more put a heavier weight on looks when online dating since they have a choice and can't initially observe or interact in 'real life', but what do I know...
Someone said something about profiles. If I were to do online dating I'd definitely care about the profile part. I believe a commenter on Boundless once said something like that most people are different shades of average looking. Sure you'll get the outliers in either direction, but most everyone is average, probably, hence, the word... "average" :)
Re: Hungry Years
I like the example gal goals like "try quilting" and "pick up the guitar again" and "no more ponytails" and "stop eating processed cheese"... :) Um. Not my goals, but they could or should be :). Never did get to sewing part of a quilt for which I cup up a bunch of squares a year or two ago or so...and haven't picked up the guitar in months...and should probably cut back with the ponytails...oh and I love cheese (though the arteries might not) :)
Anyway thanks for the reminder of the ultimate goal: to "live for Him"
Re: pornography part
It is great that the guy sought counsel on timing. Good idea in the response to wait until the trust is there. I'd probably be okay (though it could potentially be difficult to hear) hearing this news if it was a thing of the past and likely not a thing of the future. And actually if a guy even confesses that it shows humility and honesty, both of which are very important qualities in a relationship.
7. david beldon said the following at 11:59 PM on Apr 25:
Why are the guys so afraid to talk to girl and ask a girl out? That is a pretty cowardly reason to go to online dating. Why do you assume a girl is out of your league? You never know unless you try and the only way to be totally certain of it is to not ask. If you dont think she would go out with you why should she? I would rather be turned down a hundred times than to wonder if she would have said yes. (Im not writing this to encourage every guy to hold out for a supermodel; any pleasant christian woman that loves Jesus is a prize and should be thought of as such)The only way to get better at talking to girls and ask them out is to do it. I will tell you one thing, girls are looking for confidence in a guy and we as Christian men have the best reason to be confident because we know that we are more sinful than we can imagine but more loved and accepted than we could ever dream. Jesus was the most confident man who ever walked the planet because he knew who he was. If a girl turns you down, who cares, listen to some country music, play some blues, but at the end of the day you are still a child of God and the woman will respect you more for asking her unless you are a complete clod but thats where experience comes in. If you are lacking confidence and are struggling with fear in any aspect of your life Joshua chapter 1 is a great one to read.
I have yet to try online dating. I would think it would lead to a lot of bad dates but probably alot of interesting stories. I would think it could end up like work going through all the weird people before find someone that you would want to go on a second date. But that may just be the cost of doing business and sometimes isnt too far away from the real world.
I can totally relate to being hesitant to date someone in your friend group if you arent totally sold on her. It can mess up the your social network, but it should only be a big deal if you date for a long time. I think that in general in the Christian world guys need to step up and take more risks (including me).
If I go on a slump meeting an interesting Christian girl I may try it the online dating thing. For now I will stick to the pools of women in the real world.
8. Sarah22 said the following at 6:53 AM on Apr 26:
I tried online dating a couple of times over the last two years and I can never seem to feel right about it...not that I think that it's wrong, but I just don't seem to respond well to it...couldn't ever get a 'connection" or feel right about talking to someone online, it's hard for me to feel engaged I guess you would say :)
9. mindlab said the following at 9:15 AM on Apr 26:
As a guy, listening to this podcast left me ashamed by association. Your guests started off by listing two of the worst reasons for dating online: the possibility of showing interest without risk, and the ability to limit the collateral damage of inappropriate romantic involvement.
First, asking a woman out is risky, and it should be. The man should be taking the risk, and leaving it up to the woman to accept or decline. If this scares you, good; you should not do it if you don't believe it's worth the risk. If you are paralyzed by this fear, you have some personal problems to work on.
Second, if your unsuccessful dating relationships are causing so much damage and hurt that you don't want to continue as friends, you need to stop dating altogether until you get that straightened out. If you are experiencing a 'mini-divorce' every time you stop seeing someone, it is obvious that your emotional involvement is getting way ahead of your commitment. Seeking to date people who you don't have to see every week if it 'doesn't work out' isn't solving anything; it's simply covering up sin.
10. Laura Z said the following at 9:50 AM on Apr 26:
I tried eharmony for a little while...it was really difficult for me though. I think, that as a woman, it is really easy to "build up" a relationship in your mind and heart, or to fill in details that you don't really know about someone in that kind of forum...Someone will say that they attend a certain church, and so you forget to ask deeper questions about their faith...I also felt that I would start to go deeper with someone, and start more exclusively getting to know someone through email, and yet I am still recieving matches...it was just too hard...I didn't feel like I could be authentic...and I never really knew if the person I was getting to know was in the midst of getting to know several other girls at the same time...It began to feel like the slightly more respectable, christian version of "The Bachelor" I cut it off at that point...
11. Rachael said the following at 10:11 AM on Apr 26:
Well BDB, the rest of your comment didn't make it as you probably noticed, but I'm guessing you were going in the direction of the exact opposite of ENTJ...I'm not Meyers-Briggsy but actually I wonder if I'm both an extrovert and an introvert. I know a woman who is quite into discussing personalities like that. And the last time we discussed that type of thing I think she said alluded to me being an extrovert...I don't exactly remember my response but it's highly likely I paused her at that in surprise, and she may have said I have some extrovert qualities.
All in all, I think I can be either an extrovert or an introvert. It totally depends on the situation and the comfortability/knowledge factor. If I have no knowledge of sciency things and people are talking about science-y things -- wooooosh. Over the head and an introvert I become. Or at least quiet.
Put me into a room with a couple close friends and I become an extrovert. When in a leadership position I might become an extrovert. When I don't know how to respond to things or engage in certain conversations I am quieter. Put me into an average BS and I might become an extrovert, but in a BS where there is unrequited love, intimidation, strong personalities and talkative people, I am more uncomfortable during the shallow parts of the discussion. Hard to jump in, uncomfortable feelings, etc.
In sum, I am not 100% into personality labeling, I guess...
12. Adam T. said the following at 10:25 AM on Apr 26:
If a girl turns you down, who cares, listen to some country music, play some blues, but at the end of the day you are still a child of God and the woman will respect you more for asking her unless you are a complete clod but thats where experience comes in.
Great post, Dave.
13. BDB said the following at 12:35 PM on Apr 26:
Rachael (#11) wrote:
>>Well BDB, the rest of your comment didn't make it as you probably noticed,<<
(Once again without the hyperlinks)
What would happen if you took an eNTj and an eNTp, put them in a jar and shook it?
(They both like to debate, for example...)
14. BDB said the following at 1:10 PM on Apr 26:
mindlab (#9) wrote:
>>If you are experiencing a 'mini-divorce' every time you stop seeing someone, it is obvious that your emotional involvement is getting way ahead of your commitment.<<
Well, I would defint that as direct damage to one's own heart.
Collateral damage is when unrelated things get hurt. For example, if you were to go out with someone a couple of times and decide it's not going to go anywhere...and she responds by saying nasty things about you to all your friends at church. Now the problem is much bigger than just being turned down for lunch. I suppose that the Joshua Harris method works well because when you notice these kinds of people you can steer clear of them - get to know them in a group, as it were.
But even then, there can be problems. I was nearby when an older divorced guy started a pursuit of a younger woman who had never been married. At the time I thought it wouldn't be a good match, but she would need to make her own decision.
Next thing I know (within two weeks), he's stopped attending the church and pulled his kid out - something about being mad at God. And something about church leadership suggesting he should find another church if they didn't like the way things were done.
The thing is, she's gone, too. She was a really good volunteer. And now my concern is that he took a "risk," as it were, and the collateral damage is that both of them leave the church.
15. whs said the following at 2:11 PM on Apr 26:
BDB, the awesomeness of the ENTP would subdue the ENTJ. It is unavoidable.
PS. Lisa is hilarious.
16. Rachael said the following at 2:41 PM on Apr 26:
BDB - Have to look up those meanings...like the N and T. Ah..so you've got 2 extroverts w/ this:
1) intuion, thinking, judging
2) ditto, ditto, perception (sensation or intuition)
I'm the last person that should respond about this kind of thing. Actually if I was forced to choose between E or I I think I'd choose "I" anyway. Anyway, if you put the 2 in a jar, perhaps the "J" person would overpower the "P" if the person w/ "P" tendencies sometimes/often slipped into the role of the introvert. That's my guess but I am not completely into the personality letters anyway as people are so versatile...let us know what you find out as you data collect :)
17. Rachael said the following at 3:02 PM on Apr 26:
oops PS
saw in my comment that I wrote: "Actually if I was forced to choose between E or I I think I'd choose "I" anyway."
-->I meant choose for defining for myself, not in a potential guy. Not that it matters...I really should read my posts before posting them
18. BDB said the following at 3:19 PM on Apr 26:
whs(#15) wrote:
>>BDB, the awesomeness of the ENTP would subdue the ENTJ. It is unavoidable.<<
Rachael (#16) wrote:
>>perhaps the "J" person would overpower the "P"<<
Looks like we have a testable hypothesis! Now we need a jar...
19. Katie P. said the following at 3:32 PM on Apr 26:
whs,
I totally agree. The awesomeness of an ENTP would overpower anyone.
If you had to put an ENTP into a jar with an ENTJ, make sure to leave the lid off so the ENTP doesn't feel boxed in. Of course, that would make the shaking part interesting...oh, the possibilities :)
20. Lisa A said the following at 4:39 PM on Apr 26:
BDB (#5 and #13):
Well, according to the type indicators, the ENTJ is supposed to be the best match for a female ENTP. The ENTJ is also considered the "dictator" profile. Concerning.
whs (#15):
Are you an ENTP? If so, would you agree that awesomeness is just our cross to bear? We're stuck with these fantastic personalities, and must make do. Pray for us, everyone! :)
21. BDB said the following at 5:02 PM on Apr 26:
Lisa A (#20) wrote:
>>The ENTJ is also considered the "dictator" profile. Concerning. <<
Yeah, I once read that it was the personality type most commonly found in both world leaders and cult leaders...perhaps that confers a natural immunity to the "awesomeness" of an ENTP...
22. Christina said the following at 5:53 PM on Apr 26:
I won't do online dating because I'm not looking for that type of guy.
23. Nicole said the following at 8:43 PM on Apr 26:
BDB - <>
I think you would at least get a great research team. But that's just my thoughts when I look at their personalities. :)
Rachael-- I think you can definitely change over time from extroverted to introverted. I was totally an extrovert when I started college five years ago and now I'm very much introverted (based on the personality test and just observation).
24. Courtney said the following at 9:25 PM on Apr 26:
As a current eHarmony online "dater" (I use the word loosely, I really don't feel I'm dating) and an ENTP, I'm enjoying the social aspect. I've only been on the site for a couple of months, and I've had a few good open communications, but that is it. I thought the guys on the Boundless Show were open and honest and I wonder why I haven't been matched with them yet. :-) (Maybe I have and they closed me out based on "Other" lol!) However, I do think their reasons for trying online dating were a bit lame. I'm on it because I don't have the opportunity to meet single, Christian men often. I'm homebound during the week and have a small Young Adult group at church that is mostly married couples or fresh out of high school guys.
Is there any encouragement for current online daters? I know it is taboo in some circles, but if used properly it can be a good tool.
25. Rachael said the following at 10:25 PM on Apr 26:
Nicole wrote:
" I think you can definitely change over time from extroverted to introverted."
-->And that's happened to me in some ways -- some/a lot of the overt goofiness/airheadedness has subsided. But I also am more extroverted than I once was. It works both ways. I'm hoping that if I become a mom I'll become more "motherly extrovertic" :)
26. Chris said the following at 10:35 PM on Apr 26:
The reasons offered by these guys for using online dating are pretty slack but some of the responses here are equally lacking.
It's all well and good saying man up and just ask girls out in real life but in my experience I've found many Christian girls flirt and lead guys on more than non-Christians and then they have the audacity to act aghast when you ask them out.
Personally I chose to go online after growing sick and tired of the above in real life. If your on a dating site at least in theory your both on the same page to begin with.
27. Rachael said the following at 10:46 PM on Apr 26:
Chris,
It's actually encouraging to know you're not into false flirtation (flirtation w/out genuine, real interest). Those girls might just think they're being friendly, though...
I'm not always certain of the line between friendliness and flirtation...I guess it has to do with the motives and how one is being friendly...
Now back to grading...
28. Matthew said the following at 10:50 PM on Apr 26:
I was kind of surprised throughout these conversations on online dating that no one addressed the negative stereotype that one encounters when going on these sites.
I for one have never done an online dating forum, but many times my friends who have have a profile are made fun of for being desperate, needy, etc.
Has anyone else encountered such stereotypes?
29. Katie B said the following at 11:34 PM on Apr 26:
I am not going to try online dating for one reason: it is a terribly unromantic story to tell the grandkids.
Aside from that, it seems to me that situations in which the relationship, not the person, is the main desire, is a setup for failure, or at least some unfavorable side effects.
I never thought of it as a way for guys to avoid having women turn them down. It would just be better if people just asked eachother out in person, but that doesnt happen very often, In the last two years I have had more guys propose than ask me out on a date.
Another thing to think about for the guys, I am not morally against women asking a guy out, but I do not do so because the lack of initiative is very unnatractive. The same goes for online dating, guys who take shortcuts around pursual and initiative are unattractive, even in person.
30. Suzanne said the following at 12:44 AM on Apr 27:
Re: Nicole
I've been told that ISTJs are introverts who often act like extraverts. I have two friends who, both ISTJs, are taken for being more extraverted than they really are all the time. Something to do with putting out more of an effort in social situations but deep inside feeling recharged through solitude...
Maybe that's you.
31. whs said the following at 8:02 AM on Apr 27:
Lisa A (#20),
Yep, ENTP trying to become more J. It's hard to be humble when you are so awesome wouldn't you agree! The ENTP would win the battle with the ENTJ because he has more natural patience than the J. The P also has more natural affinity for change and disorientation thus the shaking of the jar would handicap the J more than the P leaving the J in a weakened state, relatively speaking. :)
I think ENTPs are particularly into MBTI because it goes a long way toward explaining our particular uniqueness/oddity.
BDB(#21),
ENTJs tend to rise to the top because they are more decisive, while Ps are still generating options. The higher in percentage the N and P the less time conscious the individual.
Rachel (#16),
http://www.bestfittype.com/
I like this web site and evaluation because it breaks the main type down into functional descriptions.
For instance, you can be an introverted Thinker but an extroverted Feeler.
32. Tami said the following at 9:31 AM on Apr 27:
A tendency towards introversion or extraversion largely has to do with where you *generally* get your energy: from solitude, or from interaction with people. One of the questions on the tests is something like: "At the end of a party, I feel: (a) energized (b) drained." Pretty obvious which is which. :)
So whether you're an E or an I doesn't always have to do with being shy and socially awkward versus being bubbly. I am an introvert, but I have been labeled as energetic and (sigh...) "perky," and I like people, so people are sometimes surprised that I'm an "I." In true "I" fashion, I need my downtime.
33. Nicole said the following at 11:15 AM on Apr 27:
Suzanne,
I'm totally an INTJ, I read the descriptiona nd laugh because it's so perfectly me. I used to always be labelled as an ENTJ.
Rachael,
I kind of miss how extroverted I used to be in a lot of ways. I remember loving social situations and enjoying being there all the time. Now most of the time when I'm around a big group I just get exhausted.
34. BDB said the following at 11:29 AM on Apr 27:
whs (#31) wrote:
>>ENTJs tend to rise to the top because they are more decisive, while Ps are still generating options. The higher in percentage the N and P the less time conscious the individual.<<
So...ENTJ's work in Finance, ENTPs work in Marketing...that makes sense...I once had someone tell me that all finance people think alike: first they ask lots and lots of questions, but when they make a decision, they can execute well - and back up their people strongly.
Meanwhile, the marketing folks are "gathering data" about whether glitter makeup will stick on a balloon...
Tami (#32) wrote:
>>"At the end of a party, I feel: (a) energized (b) drained." Pretty obvious which is which. :)<<
You'd think so. I had an experience last year that defied this logic.
First was a BBQ for a guy for a guy graduating from college. Mostly Christians, but the kind of conversations that aren't too much different from the rest of the world. Felt drained after that one.
A couple of weeks later, an impromptu BBQ in support of a missionary home from Japan. Everyone in attendance either supported the missionary or was a missionary. Left that one feeling energized.
So, apparently my answer to that question is now, "It depends."
There are also different spiritual gifts. I think that those with the gift of "mercy" are going to be much more sensitive to people's feelings. On the other hand, those with the gift of "apostleship" are likely to say, "They need to suffer!" because suffering is how God provides growth.
But if fruit of the spirit, like kindness, is something that increases as someone's spiritual walk increases, then it seems likely that their personality test results will change over time, too.
35. kimp said the following at 2:44 PM on Apr 27:
i've always been averse to the idea of dating, it's never been a good way for me to know someone. i've always preferred to start out as friends, but i can understand how constraining/restricting that could be
i'm an INFP
36. whs said the following at 2:59 PM on Apr 27:
Rachael,
Sorry I misspelled your name. Bummer.
37. Reid said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 27:
I don't mean to offer up any excuses, but I suspect that for some guys the reluctance to take a chance on someone may go beyond feeling the jitters. Perhaps they feel that they have no good reason to be optimistic about what would happen, based on many rejections, few acceptances, a general lack of the social skills like casual chat that come naturally to other personalities. Approaching someone is a vulnerable position to be in; when it turns out badly, the scar can last for a long time.
As mindlab (#9) wrote, "If you are paralyzed by this fear, you have some personal problems to work on."
38. Stephanie said the following at 3:41 PM on Apr 27:
I so agree with David's post(#7), women are looking for confident men, men who can demonstrate that they are leaders! I have tried online dating and personally, it has not worked for me. At this point, I am looking for friendship in the opposite sex, but that is even hard to find...so in the meantime, I will continue to allow God to develop me and wait patiently for whom ever God has in store for me!
39. Lynne said the following at 6:46 PM on Apr 27:
Ok, all this talk ob ENTP and ENTJ....
I enjoy you (married one)
But in arguing your point (and many NT do like an intense discussion),
What you're forgetting are the ENFPs
Or I as I like to say "God's other chosen people"
: )
40. Rachael said the following at 6:51 PM on Apr 27:
BDB:
"But if fruit of the spirit, like kindness, is something that increases as someone's spiritual walk increases, then it seems likely that their personality test results will change over time, too."
-->Amen BDB!! Not necessarily with 'personality test' stuff, but, you know, EVERYONE is supposed to kind. I think even today at a meeting someone mentioned that everyone is called to be merciful. Maybe someone doesn't have a gift of technical 'mercy ministries' or something, but we're all to be kind. I or E or N or P or J or whatever our personalties might be. Everyone who has been called by God has the Holy Spirit!
Free fruit for all ~~
Let's put all our personalities - our fruits - into the shaker and toss it up! :)
41. Rachael said the following at 7:02 PM on Apr 27:
Nicole,
Lots of times I do not enjoy big group social stuff either. You know when I do enjoy group things (which might be the same for you)? When there's some sort of shared and enjoyed commonality. Serving. Talking about the Bible. Talking about common experiences or life situations (with work people or (ex)classmates.) I'm kind-of not up with the times with movies, TV, etc., so I'm not usually a good contributor in this regard. Nor am I good when the conversation gets sciency, as I've mentioned before.
I suppose you might already be involved in ministry, but if not, I encourage you to participate in something(s) where you can sense the love both within the team members and in showing it through the outreach activity. It's one of the most fulfilling things ever...(though I admit that I do not incredibly enjoy one of the things I'm helping with, I totally totally love another ministry...it's like it's part of my blood right now.)
42. Rachael said the following at 7:14 PM on Apr 27:
whs - wow, good eye! No problem about the name spelling - I tend to notice it when people spell it with the "a", as it tends to get missed. Variety is the spice of life, so perhaps the more misspellings the merrier? :)
43. Larry said the following at 7:17 PM on Apr 27:
If these guys are typical eHarmony men, then I should have had a lot more success than I did!
However, I think at least 75% of the women I was matched with were expired members, or never signed up. I've been inactive since last June, and they've matched me 200+ times since then. That's eHarmony's dirtiest secret.
The women that I did communicate with and meet seemed just terrified of real human interaction. It sounds cynical, but I am convinced that if a woman is single past 35, then it may be too late for her.
44. PLH said the following at 7:42 PM on Apr 27:
Hmm...online dating is an interesting topic. I think it's just like any other form of meeting someone, it can be helpful but it can also be misused. People obviously should examine their motives for dating and use careful discernment when opening up to someone they met online.
On the other hand, sometimes it seems like pride prevents people from using online dating. Sure, it's not for everyone but it's silly to think it's not the "real" world or is somehow less romantic than other ways of meeting people. It's just another way God can use to bring people together can, like other methods, can be wisely used and abused.
45. whs said the following at 8:27 PM on Apr 27:
BDB (#34), Nah, NTs in general are not in it for the money. A lot of ENTPs are engineers and scientists or at least think like them, systematically. Finance and Marketing are more likely to be S types. J for finance and P for marketing.
46. Rachael said the following at 9:15 PM on Apr 27:
kimp (35),
If I were in control of everything, my preferred method would be to be friends first as well. Somehow "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" is on my bookshelf now, even though I haven't read it in years and even though I have dated before. In fact, it seems I will meet with someone in the near future - suppose that will count as a "date". A hesitation I have is that there isn't a lot of data and there probably won't be many chances to data collect in mutual communities (he lives kind-of far away). I'm kind-of old now, though, so it might be good for me to be open to 'dating' should the opportunity arise. Just hopefully God will provide the discernment and hopefully I'll be attentive to that. Might as well give it a shot...
47. Tami said the following at 9:25 PM on Apr 27:
BDB (32) -- you're right, it depends on the situation, but I think they want you to respond with your gut instinct. When I've been at parties with a bunch of strangers, yet I've met someone really interesting or made a great interpersonal connection (of *any* kind), I sure do leave energized. But on the whole, after big parties, I need to go home and hang out in quiet for a couple hours.
So yes, some conversations really energize me. But man, after sales meetings or work "retreats" (which are anything but)... I need a day off. It's like I used a week's worth of energy in two or three days.
Incidentally, I am attracted to other introverts. I know this defies conventional logic, but there ya go.
Signed, an INFJ (with a middling "I" and a really strong "N")
48. dave b said the following at 10:05 PM on Apr 27:
#7 mindlab
Second, if your unsuccessful dating relationships are causing so much damage and hurt that you don't want to continue as friends, you need to stop dating altogether until you get that straightened out. If you are experiencing a 'mini-divorce' every time you stop seeing someone, it is obvious that your emotional involvement is getting way ahead of your commitment. Seeking to date people who you don't have to see every week if it 'doesn't work out' isn't solving anything; it's simply covering up sin.
I do agree with you but I guess with my experience I dated a girl at church for 7 months and now its just not healthy for us to see each other on a regular basis. We had the a lot of the same friends. The thing that made it hard was not only did we experience rejection from each other but from our friends as well that had to pick sides (I had to skip a Valentines dinner that most of my friends went to). But I wouldnt trade that experience for the world for any social network and would do it again 10 out 10 times. Garth Brooks the "Dance" comes to mind but I disgress. I been on few dates recently that didnt pan out with people at church and that was no big deal we are just friends. I think we can get all worked up with what might happen and dont focus on that God is in control and he has the small things in his hands.
49. BDB said the following at 10:07 PM on Apr 27:
Stephanie (#38) wrote:
>>I so agree with David's post(#7), women are looking for confident men, men who can demonstrate that they are leaders!<<
Everytime someone writes this I think about the "players" who are very confident in entertainment settings, the bar, etc...but are yahoos who I would never hire because they can't manage their way out of a paper bag due to poor operations skills.
In case one of you is dealing with a guy who is shy and ill-at-ease in some of these social situations, I have a suggestion: see if you can find out what he is passionate about. There may be another non-entertainment area of life where he IS confident and the leadership will show up.
Of course, if all he does is play video games, this won't work...
50. Jesse said the following at 7:25 AM on Apr 28:
Am I the only one who finds the title of this entry humorous? It gives one a mildly violent, yet funny mental picture.
51. Tami said the following at 9:55 AM on Apr 28:
Larry (43), fertility issues aside for the moment, if you're going to set a age limit on women beyond which it's "too late" for them to have a relationship, it's only "fair" to do so for men as well.
I disagree that there's any sort of "sell by" date on people. The true heart of the situation is whether or not the person is growing and learning, not how old they are. It's not fair to say "it's too late" for *anyone* in *any* arena of life; God is the judge of that. So long as God gives us breath, we have an opportunity to live and grow and change for Him.
52. kimbo said the following at 10:16 AM on Apr 28:
this is completely meant to be comical, so...
maybe Boundless could consider having their own "online matchmaking" for all the lovely Boundless readers/listeners?????
could be interesting :0)
haha!
53. BDB said the following at 10:48 AM on Apr 28:
whs (#45) wrote:
>>Nah, NTs in general are not in it for the money.<<
Well, finance takes a lot of math...and someone needs to do finance for churches and nonprofits. They tend to pay less for the same job, but the same skills are required. Maybe they get someone for $100K when a secular firm would pay $150K. Once you can pay your mortgage, how much more do you really need?
But it's perhaps better to think of an ENTJ as someone who organizes people, the task of an executive.
Lisa A. - it looks like the INTJ is the natural match to an ENTP.
Rachael (#41) wrote:
>>Nor am I good when the conversation gets sciency, <<
But you are gifted at inventing new words.
Tami (#47) wrote:
>>But on the whole, after big parties, I need to go home and hang out in quiet for a couple hours. <<
You know, what's interesting is that my grandparents seem to be able to do both. They often seemed to be surrounded by people, and hosted lots of receptions and events. But when I went to visit them, everyone was expected to sit and read quietly after dinner. If you didn't bring anything to read, they'd have something they'd set aside for you in anticipation of your visit. They clearly charged up in quiet, despite looking like extroverts some of the time.
54. Jeni said the following at 11:31 AM on Apr 28:
#43
"It sounds cynical, but I am convinced that if a woman is single past 35, then it may be too late for her."
Yikes! Thanks for warning the countdown signal for me Larry! I've got 2 weeks to make it to the altar!!
I'm going to need a serious fast-track program. Any ideas!?!?!
55. Kellie said the following at 11:42 AM on Apr 28:
Christina(22), exactly what type of guy is that?
Katie B (29), it's romantic if it works!!
56. mindlab said the following at 11:42 AM on Apr 28:
#49 BDB
"In case one of you is dealing with a guy who is shy and ill-at-ease in some of these social situations, I have a suggestion: see if you can find out what he is passionate about. There may be another non-entertainment area of life where he IS confident and the leadership will show up."
Bingo, thank you for pointing that out. This, frankly, is my biggest gripe with typical 'social' events; everyone is expected to stand around making small talk (no meaningful discussion allowed), and I can't stand it. You learn so much more about a person when you accomplish something together, and it's much easier to relate in the context of an activity than over a superficial lunch.
57. Tami said the following at 11:45 AM on Apr 28:
BDB (53), it sounds like your grandparents have found a way to balance their social and personal needs.
I think a lot of what drains introverts is that they don't know what to do or say as "naturally" as an extravert would. So they expend a lot of energy trying to figure out how to initiate "small talk" or how to set a limit for themselves -- that is, not feeling as though attendance at a party necessarily requires that they spend the entire night there. The more you learn how to "deal" in social situations, the less energy you expend in the "what am I doing here" way, and the more you can expend in enjoying yourself in the company of others. If you're enjoying yourself, it's not a drain at all.
Except for sales meetings.
58. BDB said the following at 12:10 PM on Apr 28:
Jesse (#50) wrote:
>>Am I the only one who finds the title of this entry humorous?<<
At first I thought they were ON strike...
59. melanie said the following at 12:29 PM on Apr 28:
How can I get a hold of David Beldon? Dude, you sound like a catch!
60. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:09 PM on Apr 28:
Tami (# 57)
I'm not sure all introverts fall into that mold...
Yeah, it is all about what situations are more draining, but even for an introvert that is thoroughly enjoying a social setting, it can get incredibly draining rather fast.
I've been spending a lot of time in social settings and most of my friends would term me as an extravert. I know I'm an introvert, but I've learned how to handle myself socially enough that I can cope. However, while the people around me are going strong for 4-5 hours of socializing, I start falling asleep on the closest shoulder after 2 hours. But get me home alone or with 1-2 of my closest friends, and I will be wide awake for several more hours.
Also, social awkwardness isn't always the reason why an introvert tends to be quiet. Some introverts just give up on the trying to find anything to talk about and just listen to the conversations around them...sometimes they get lost in their own heads, thinking about their own thoughts...which is what an introvert is-Someone who draws energy from retreating to their own thoughts, analyzing their own feelings, and such.
Even an introvert that has no problems coming up with something to talk about will be emotionally and physically drained after a relatively short amount of time of socializing.
61. BDB said the following at 1:41 PM on Apr 28:
Wow Melanie, before today, I didn't even know that Cedar Key existed - let alone that it had kittens...
62. Tami said the following at 1:58 PM on Apr 28:
Christina (60), perhaps I should have said "many introverts" and "at all" was a bit of an overstatement.
As I mentioned in other comments, I am most definitely an introvert and I gain energy by being on my own rather than in groups -- that will never go away. But I find that as I garner more social skills, I use less energy being "in my head" in group situations; I think that the internal analysis has a lot to do with energy level. And I find myself being more engaged in what's going on -- and thus more likely to leave a party in an upbeat and energetic mood.
63. Mike Theemling said the following at 2:28 PM on Apr 28:
Just listened to the podcast regarding guys and eHarmony. I am somewhat disappointed that many women out there will get the impression that a lot of (Christian) guys are "shy", "afraid", etc.
Sorry, but when you pursue a relationship, you are taking a risk with your heart. And it can, and often does get hurt. If are doing eHarmony or other dating website just to avoid a 'No' from a face-to-face person (a.k.a. "knife in the heart") then that alone in my opinion isn't a good reason.
That being said, a point early on brought up which is legitimate is the idea that either explicitly or implicitly, dating is discouraged at many single groups, especially for men. Guys who ask out girls (especially after one or two rejections) risk being labeled as 'sharks'. There can also be little help from the group leadership. I had a one-to-one talk with the single's group leader asking for guidance on finding a wife from within the group. I pretty much got the "wait and be patient" spiel from him as well as the "focus less on finding someone and more on trusting God" line (ironic how he was years older than me and still single as well. His advice didn't seem to work out for himself). Naturally then, if that avenue of finding prospective dates isn't welcoming, guys (and girls) are just going to an avenue that is.
Finally, a word about being honest with ourselves: a lot of us aren't. Since we don't want to be thought of as "too picky", "shallow", or even "racist", we fool ourselves into believing that we can be attracted to anyone when in fact we cannot. Numbers don't lie and the numbers say that men prefer certain things and so do women. I'm not suggesting attraction cannot develop over time with getting to know someone nor am I saying we shouldn't look at the heart as well, but we need to be honest with ourselves about our preferences and be aware of what others prefer too. (Yes, guys generally do not care for grossly overweight women.)
64. Rachael said the following at 3:16 PM on Apr 28:
BDB wrote: " In case [...]the leadership will show up." (see comment [#49] for fill-ins...)
This tip could also be applied to women - if a woman is shy, it doesn't mean she is shy in all contexts. It might be fun to discover her passions.
BDB also wrote: "Everytime someone writes this I think about the "players" who are very confident in entertainment settings, the bar, etc...but ...."
BDB --> this trait alone doesn't attract me, though if there are other good qualities about the guy it might. I would prefer someone who doesn't come across as a 'player.' Your humor has been complimented on this forum by more than one person, and you seem to be a sensitive, intelligent person. I'm sure you'll end up with a good girl if it's in God's plan. You know I had a really good conversation a few months ago with a guy at a party where I was a wall flower who primarily talked with another gal wall flower I met there...and he's older by about 9 years. Still it was a great conversation, even though I was a wallflower and didn't know many people there.
and mindlab (56) wrote:
" everyone is expected to stand around making small talk (no meaningful discussion allowed), and I can't stand it. You learn so much more about a person when you accomplish something together, and it's much easier to relate in the context of an activity than over a superficial lunch."
-->Nice. Sounds like you might enjoy serving or doing things with people instead of just chatting if commonalities are or seem to be lacking...
Don't worry you guys. Not everyone is specifically looking for really outgoing guys. Have hope!! :)
65. Tara said the following at 4:08 PM on Apr 28:
Christina (comment #60): your assessment of introverts at parties sounds very familiar! LOL I'm terrible at making small talk so any person who makes me feel comfortable enough to jump into "real" conversations makes me instantly drawn to them. That's ultimately what attracted me to my boyfriend: he was the first guy who I didn't feel tongue-tied around.
And for interest's sake: I am an ISFP. ;)
66. Tami said the following at 5:49 PM on Apr 28:
Mike (63), while I appreciate your desire for us all to be honest with ourselves, I disagree with your statement that numbers do not lie. Quite often, they are easily manipulated to suit our own purposes or support our own theories.
This is not to say that "appearances don't matter" when it comes to forming a couple, but that looking at something in aggregate does not *necessarily* help us as individuals. Does knowing that (making this number up) 55% of men prefer blonde women mean that I need to go out and dye my hair, or that any man I'm going to marry is bound to feel like he would rather be married to a blonde and thus he "settled"? No, because it still means that there are a decent sized proportion of men out there who prefer *my* physical traits.
As a woman, I'm really tired of the implication that I'm never going to be as attractive as other women because my physical features don't match the "majority" opinion of men (not blonde, not tall enough, whatever), or the features that science "proves" we prefer. I don't think God wants us to view ourselves (or others) that way -- if He thought a certain hair color was the most beautiful, why would He have created other hair colors, and wouldn't physical features then be seen as a sign of His "preference" towards some over others?
There are certainly things I can do to maintain a healthy appearance and attitude (which I do), but worrying about fitting into a statistical mold is not one of them. Frankly, that's a waste of time and is not constructive. It puts me in the frame of mind that no one would find me attractive -- which is patently false, both in theory and experience. I also think it puts the "blame" for why I'm not married in the wrong place.
67. BDB said the following at 6:28 PM on Apr 28:
Rachael (#64) wrote:
>>Still it was a great conversation, even though I was a wallflower and didn't know many people there. <<
For the men still reading, this is a good way to meet people - find the quiet people who were dragged there by someone else. They're usually more interesting to talk to.
>>Your humor has been complimented on this forum by more than one person,<<
You're very kind - it helps to drink more coffee...
>>It might be fun to discover her passions. <<
Wasn't it a few months ago when we were having some kind of discussion about meeting missions-minded people? I met my Cambodia team yesterday. They consist of:
- a married couple I went to our Mexico mission with last weekend
- another married guy whose wife is not ready for an overseas mission trip
- myself
- seven single women (nurses & college students)
I'm thinking to myself, God must have a sense of humor - I'm going to be living with these people for two weeks in a country with no hot water - and no Starbucks...
Looks like I'm going to need to do some adjusting...
(The next team meeting is at my house - we can drink coffee until we leave.)
68. dave b said the following at 10:56 PM on Apr 28:
59. melanie
How can I get a hold of David Beldon? Dude, you sound like a catch!
I am a catch. At least I think I am most of time. I wish more girls would figure that out. Its too bad that our only interactions are on a blog. Im sure you will find a great guy in the real world. Continue to seek God out and enjoy all that God is offering you today and not make the great gift of marriage an idol.
69. Andrew said the following at 11:42 PM on Apr 28:
RE smalltalk at parties/gatherings:
I can't stand it either. The conversation gets dumbed down a little more with each new participant. Eventually, the only thing that everyone in the group can talk about is mutual acquaintances (which usually means, in practice, mutual acquaintances that everyone knows except me). At this point I usually zone out and ignore the conversation.
70. Nicole said the following at 11:51 PM on Apr 28:
I personally like the shy guy who's ill-at-ease in the big social settings. But maybe that's because I at least feel the same way.
I can't find who, but I'm pretty sure someone commented on this earlier, it's totally true that the guys in many single groups are encouraged not to ask girls out. I heard this from a guy on leadership at the singles group at the church I attended, they apparently tell the guys to not ask the girls out -- it scares them off. I was honestly thinking that I had been there for over six months, was somewhat interested in a guy, and would have really appreciated it if he'd asked me out. I wanted to be like -- stop telling them that! I know one guy said he just thought it was easier to not date someone at the church, everyone thought he was terrible if they broke up, so he went to online dating.
By the way I thought they were on strike or something too! haha
71. Tami said the following at 9:16 AM on Apr 29:
It is so bizarre to me that the leaders of young adults' groups would discourage men from pursuing women, or discourage dating in general. As others have stated, it pushes everything underground, which is never healthy. Besides, why run a singles' group if you don't want them to connect? So why not call it a "celibacy group"? Though I guess you wouldn't get great attendance based on that name...
The interesting thing I've found with a lot of singles'/young adults' groups is that they feel just like the high-school group I didn't like very much as a teenager. I'm sure that not every group is like that, but on the whole that's why most singles' groups don't appeal to me. However, that doesn't push me online; it pushes me to connect with others in different ways.
72. Jo said the following at 12:47 PM on Apr 29:
Ah, Rachael (11), I'm both as well. I come out as either ENFJ or INFJ, depending on the mood I'm in when I take the test... it's always incredibly borderline.
I like the ENFJ profile best, since King David apparently was one... and we apparently have great charisma which draws people in to our 'grand schemes'.
73. Liz L said the following at 2:42 PM on Apr 29:
Christina (#60)
Wow! You described me perfectly! I understand my personality type pretty well, but have met few other people that do. People always say I'm "the quiet one" and have sometimes accused me of being shy, unhappy or upset.
It's nice to know that there are others out there that don't think my personality is abnormal or I need to be fixed somehow.
74. Katie B said the following at 4:10 PM on Apr 29:
Men are being counseled not to ask women out? what else are they supposed to do?
Tami- I agree with you that these statistics of what men prefer in women shouldnt be made more significant than they actually are. If we believe them, as you pint out, then those who dont fit in are left out: they have something missing, or they have to make up for their lack; and it does nothing for women who fit the stats either, it implies that there appearance is the only thing they have to offer, if they are pursued by men, how can they trust that the man sees beyond their appearance and will still love them when they get old and gray?
Some of the tenderest and happiest couples I know involve people who are not conventionally beautiful. I look at the husband of a friend who is very overwieght due to a health problem beyond her control, and I hope that someday a man will find me as beautiful. I work out and watch my diet and my appearance, but its not for the men, its because I feel better about myself when I take care of myself.
75. Rachael said the following at 4:23 PM on Apr 29:
BDB - easy on the caffeine :) You'll do just fine. Sounds like you hit a jacket of single like-minded women.
WHS - thanks for the link! I'll have to check it out. Actually today in one of my classes the students discussed questions related to the topic of personalities...I wrote several "personality letters" on the board at one point, but didn't really explain all of them. I plan to put a link to a personality test on the class blog site and perhaps have them take a personality test in class :) It's still interesting, though...and I do recognize that I don't have certain personality traits in any or most settings...so there might be something to the personality categorization thing, even though I don't take the whole chameleon categorization thing too seriously...
76. BDB said the following at 3:12 PM on Apr 30:
Rachael (#75) wrote:
>>BDB - easy on the caffeine :) You'll do just fine. Sounds like you hit a jacket of single like-minded women.<<
Actually, the team leader volunteered to bring Starbucks for everyone. She hasn't called to get my order yet...
In any case, it gives me an excuse to figure out how to program my coffee-maker.
77. Melanie said the following at 9:21 AM on May 1:
Did anyone see this? Damage control, anyone?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/134305
78. Kristina said the following at 12:02 PM on May 1:
A lot of comments on this post express a very negative and downhearted attitude toward online dating. I suppose I'm biased because I "met" my boyfriend (and most likely future husband) online, but I think if it's approached in a prayerful and wise manner, it can be very beneficial and effective.
I went online because I was at the point in my life where I was ready to commit to a long-term relationship leading to marriage, but there was no one in my congregation or within my acquaintances who was a strong Christian man preparing for marriage. To "narrow" my search, I posted my profile (with a user name, not my real name) only on churchofchristsingles.com, where I knew the likelihood that I'd find a man who shared many of my beliefs would be high. Then I sat back and waited on God.
I don't know how every woman who dates online chooses to "pick" who she talks to, but to the male Boundless readers, I want y'all to know that I responded to every email I got, no matter what the guy looked like or how bland/grammatically stumping his email was. I did stop emailing the creepy guy who demanded I tell him my real name, but I tried to get to know all who expressed an interest until I knew I wanted to pursue a relationship with my now-boyfriend. Ironically, he didn't have the most handsome of the profile pictures, he was only an inch taller than me, he was a blue-collar worker while I had my sights set on grad school, and he used one of the corniest pickup lines in his first email that I've ever read. But we fell in love anyway, and I'm moving across the country to live with his cousins so we can live in the same state before he officially pops the question! So take heart, guys, and just get to know a girl, no matter if she looks like a supermodel or hasn't darkened the door of a beauty salon in years.
To Katie (#29), I don't believe being face-to-face is a prerequisite for romance. Romance depends largely on the personalities of the couple rather than their surroundings. A woman could meet her husband-to-be while shopping at Goodwill and they could get to know each other while doing their wash at a run-down laundromat. That doesn't sound romantic, but it could be to that couple, especially if they're considerate of each other and are enjoying spending time together. My boyfriend and I emailed for two months before he flew 1600 miles to meet me and I snuck up behind him in Baggage Claim, where I saw his bright blue eyes and shy grin for the first time in person. I still think that was pretty romantic, but it wouldn't have been if we hadn't gotten to know each other somewhat online first. Plus, it was important to know that we were on the same track spiritually. That can be seen in person, but also in the attitudes/stories that pop up in correspondence as well.
At the end of the day, we all know that God has the ability to do anything. It may be His plan for you to meet your future spouse online or at your aunt's BBQ -- so keep your minds and hearts open to Him!
79. Rachael said the following at 4:15 PM on May 1:
Kristina,
Congrats! Neat story - neat to see the love flow through your words.
I like your comment that the Goodwill laundromat, and Baggage Claim could very well be romantic...(and that the latter was for you)
Yes, there may very well be surprises popping out of the mundane :)