Jobs Will Wait, Babies Won't
by Candice Watters on 04/02/2008 at 11:46 AM
You can't control your fertility ... A good marriage will make you happier than a good job ... You can control where you spend your time and energy, and you should search for your mate if you don't want to face fertility problems.
Wow. So glad to be able to report that this is from the Boston Globe. If I'd written it, I likely would have received heaps of crit mail. What else does this provocative story reveal? "Women who want to have children should make it a priority in their twenties to find a partner." Why? "... because one of the most dramatic issues facing Generation X is infertility. No generation of women has had more trouble with fertility than this generation."
Xers were sold a bill of good by Boomers. And at the top of the list of "terrible baby boomer advice, 'Wait. You have time. Focus on your career first.'" Finally, a mainstream newspaper is serving it straight up. You may not like what reporter Penelope Trunk has to say in "Want to Have a Baby? Now's the Time," but you can't fault her for glossing over the facts. And without the facts, we're at a disadvantage. Our decisions will always be faulty if they're ill-informed. And when it comes to the battle between babies and career, a generation of women has been deceived. Trunk is candid, writing,
... you have your whole life to get a career. Obviously, that's not true of having a baby. If you are past your early twenties, and you're single and want to have children, you need to find a partner now. Take that career drive and direct it toward mating - your ovaries will not last longer than your career.
In addition to advising women who want children to start focusing on finding a husband, she suggests having your eggs tested for premature aging and even having some of your eggs frozen. I'm not familiar with the aging test and have written before about why egg freezing is a bad idea. (Besides, neither of these will do anything to help you marry well). But she's onto something with her advice to shift your energy from your career toward forming a family. Her advice is praiseworthy. And I'm glad to see it coming from such an unlikely source. I love truth, wherever it can be found.
1. Jules said the following at 12:00 PM on Apr 2:
I have a good career yet also invest time into leading a women's Bible study, volunteering at a women's shelter, and particapting in a women's small group.
I've inadvertently shut off opportunities to run into men (but my older friends/mentors are setting me up so that's helping!)
I'm stuck: I'm 25, would love to be married, and am investing all my non-work time into meaningful activities. How do I meet men, other than heading to Dallas Seminary to meet pastors-to-be??
I'd give up my job in a heartbeat to marry and raise children. My fertile years are diminishing but I don't know what to do.
2. Khalil said the following at 12:01 PM on Apr 2:
I will probably be shot down on this, but here goes...
Why not adopt? If fertility becomes an issue the longer you wait (and you have chosen to wait for various reasons) then adoption would be a viable way to have kids, there are tons of kids out there that need homes. I don't mean to say this out of spite or meanness, but I've never understood the whole procreation push. I've seen a couple in my church spend tens of thousands of dollars on fertility treatments. Nothing works and each failure just breaks their hearts even more. They just won't consider adoption, they so strongly feel the need to produce biological offspring that they are going into debt. Both of the individuals are healthy and of child-producing age.
3. ayako said the following at 12:21 PM on Apr 2:
amen.
I'm 26 going 27, praying and looking for a husband. I want to get married hopefully before I turn 28. Therefore I'm being intentional. And yes, letting go of your career even temporarily could be hard, but how hard is it? Hard enough for us to give up our chance of having a family and babies? I say no.
4. dana111 said the following at 12:23 PM on Apr 2:
Thanks, Candice!
I know that if this article was written by you or any other of the Boundless moderators, you would have been excoriated by many for denying the "wonders" of the "gift of singleness" by suggesting that women can't wait forever to have children. It is sad when the world seems to value marriage and children more than the church does!!!
5. Matt said the following at 12:29 PM on Apr 2:
So who's free Friday?
6. a sassy sister said the following at 12:37 PM on Apr 2:
candice,
I have a couple of questions for you:
1.) How do you respond to twentysomething women who HAVE DONE EVERYTHING YOU SUGGEST to get married AND STILL ARE NOT MARRIED YET? Are you somehow implying that those who are not hunting down marriage prospects 24/7 are somehow wasting their fertile years?
2.) Do you believe that is more important to prepare men and women for MATURITY more than it is to prepare men and women for marriage? Or do you believe that preparing for marriage makes a person mature?
3.) How does this post encourage single women in their twenties not to obssess and worry over getting married by 30? If so, could you explain to me how this helps?
7. Amir Larijani said the following at 12:39 PM on Apr 2:
Candice: You nailed it.
On the other hand, we've gotta revisit our whole approach for youth discipleship. They aren't counting the costs (of professional career v. marriage and family life) because almost no one is teaching them to do so.
In fact, it's the other way around: they are being taught to go for the career first/settle down later approach.
The economics of time is quite unforgiving in this area.
8. Anna said the following at 1:01 PM on Apr 2:
Jules,
Ditto here. And funnily enough, I had someone at church recently tell me I should seriously consider moving to a town with a large seminary!
I agree that it's hard to figure out what to do. I worry a lot how to live in the short-term: finding contentment in a career that isn't my first choice (SAHM is my first choice...a new abbreviation for me) but not sending out the signal that I am not actively pursuing marriage. It's a tough one. It seems at my church if you're in your early 20s the guys assume you're looking for a relationship, but if you're in your mid-20s and not married that you're "concentrating on your career." I've read the articles here and Candice's lovely book, but lately I feel like standing up on a chair with a sign that reads "Marriage-minded!" Even though I've been working on praying boldly and being biblically proactive for the past 2 years, I'm getting the feeling that I've still missed the boat somehow.
I guess it all comes down to patience. That's always such a hard one!
9. Christina said the following at 1:05 PM on Apr 2:
Matt,
I unfortunately am heading home for a baby shower this weekend =p
I'm gonna go play with my god daughter and have fun showering one of my best friends with baby gifts and prodding her to get off her tush to go hang out with me =)
10. Kirsty said the following at 1:11 PM on Apr 2:
I too would give up my career in a second for marriage and babies. I am 26, and am fully aware of the 'ticking clock'. I laughed when I read Jules comment: "How do I meet men, other than heading to Dallas Seminary to meet pastors-to-be??" because the same thing has crossed my mind as well. What to do, what to do?
11. Nicole said the following at 1:14 PM on Apr 2:
While I agree that people should not intentionally put off marriage, sometimes infertility knows no age. Even women in their 20's can struggle with infertility. There is never a gaurantee. How is it that my 42 year old friend got pregnant on her first try with her new husband, yet my 25 year old friend, and myself (32) have been trying for years with no luck?
None of us are promised that we will have children, the more important question is, are you so dependent on God that you are open to whatever path He leads you, even it it's not the expected? Are you able to praise Him even when you don't get what you want?
Hope all you want and prepare all you want. Make all the choices and decisions you can that you think will give you a leg up on getting that husband or family, but don't forget that sometimes you still aren't in control of what happens, even when you've made all the "right" choices.
12. Angie said the following at 1:16 PM on Apr 2:
Khalil (#2) I completely agree with your sentiments regarding adoption as being a real, viable option that would serve both as a blessing to the adoptive family as well as the one being adopted!
13. JessicaF said the following at 1:32 PM on Apr 2:
I've got an extra ticket to a ballet on Friday...but, that's too girly, isn't it! ;)
14. J. said the following at 1:40 PM on Apr 2:
I really hope the moderator will allow this post because I think this topic needs some balance.
Let's be fair. Though this is unfortunately not widely reported, newer research shows that it isn't ideal for men to wait to father children after the age of 35, either. A man may never lose his fertility completely as he gets older, but it does decline. Also, there seems to be a connection between increased paternal age and a higher likelihood of fathering a child with with a condition such as autism, Down syndrome, or schizophrenia, not to mention others. For further information, see the Psychology Today article entitled "A Man's Shelf Life." Here is a link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=20070830-000004&page=1
15. Angie said the following at 1:48 PM on Apr 2:
by the way... the Seminary that I attend is full of amazing and godly men.... that have wonderful wives.
16. Jules said the following at 2:07 PM on Apr 2:
Anna (#8),
You accurately summed it up: that women in their early 20's are assumed to be marriage-minded, but those over 25 are perceived to be career focused.
How unfortunate that our generation considers set-ups "meddling." People who set me up initially tip-toe around the topic because they're unsure if I'm up for it.
Julia
17. Candice Watters said the following at 2:08 PM on Apr 2:
Sassy Sister, maybe it's just me, but I always feel like you're YELLING AT ME when you use all caps. Don't worry about me missing something; I promise to read closely.
As to your 3 points:
1) To the young women who are doing their part to live faithfully "like they're planning to marry" and who are still waiting, I encourage them to continue to pray boldly and trust God for the rest. I also encourage them to pursue mentor relationships for all the various reasons I discuss in the "You Need a Network" chapter of "Get Married."
2) I believe we should always be striving to grow in our maturity in Christ, whatever our marital status. However, I have also seen it demonstrated that marriage has the potential to mature you--especially if the married couple goes on to have babies--quite unlike anything else.
3) This article is a tremendous help in that it further debunks the myth that "single women should merely be content in their singleness and trust that if marriage is mean to be, God will make it happen in due time."
It encourages women with the reality that if motherhood is something they desire, they should shift some of their energy and effort to finding a good mate when they are still young -- a message vastly different from what most young women hear.
Not only is it ok to want to get married, women do have a role to play. When I first heard that as a single women who was starting to wonder if I'd ever get married, I felt free to finally own my desire. I stopped feeling embarrassed about it. And that was the first step toward marrying Steve.
18. Louise said the following at 2:10 PM on Apr 2:
I agree with comment 11.
Make the wisest choices you can in order to achieve your life goals, but at the same time remember that nothing is guaranteed.
19. Sarah22 said the following at 2:17 PM on Apr 2:
I don't think the point of this article was to point out that infertility can happen to anyone (although this is very true). The point is that it's MUCH more likely the older a woman is, so don't delay getting married and having children for your career. Don't fall into the trap that there's time to do it all as the world wants you to believe.
I also think adoption is more than OK. My best friend is adopted and I can't imagine my life without her! I don't agree morally with IVF. I think people waste money on infertility treatments when they could just adopt. Although I understand adoption can be quite difficult and expensive as well, at least you know the money spent will definitely produce a baby in the end while infertility treatments have no guarantee. I do understand a woman desiring to carry her own child, it is an amazing gift, and when physicians tell you that you can fix your problem I can see how tempting it would be to want to do anything to make it happen. It would definitely be more than disappointing to realize you are unable to, but God’s grace is abundant for any situation of heartache. I think a lot of Christians think adoption is wrong for some reason but I’ve never been able to understand why they feel that way...
20. Michele Samuelson said the following at 2:21 PM on Apr 2:
Few things to say. One, I'm with Candice - it's really great to see this issue being taken up by the "mainstream" media. Now, if only they'll address the REAL reason behind the tens of thousands of teenagers with STDs.....
In all sincerity, it's wonderful that someone other than Christian writers realizes that fertility is a precious thing, squandered by many, either inadvertantly or purposefully.
I agree with #2 Khalil - why not adopt?
And finally, I'm 28. My fertile years may be numbered, but I have a much larger concern, given that birth defects are common in my family and have occured in my husband's. Waiting to have children is a gamble on this basis alone.
Ultimately, we have to trust in God. Remember Sarah!! (I think we should get t-shirts that say that)
21. Diana said the following at 2:22 PM on Apr 2:
This is a great post--I find myself facing a catch 22---I married just 3 months ago (at age 30) and am experiencing an incredible urge for a baby already. But, I am the breadwinner because my husband just immigrated here and is working very hard, but only making 1/3 of my salary; and we just cannot make the numbers work for me to quit work and stay at home. (I also carry our health insurance).
The sad thing is, that I'm willing to live on less and sacrifice in order to have a baby, but with him still floundering somewhat to accommodate to a new culture and life, I'm so fearful that I can't "depend" on his earning power to support us, yet.
I struggled with singleness for years; but I find now that even with a wonderful man and marriage, the struggles never stop. There is no magic button and it's hard to know the wisest way to proceed. Even (well-meaning) Christians (like my mom) give me dire warnings like "don't get pregnant yet! you have plenty of time! you have to work! You only have a 1 bedroom apartment!" So should I trust God to somehow work it out, and try for a little one; or be more practical/pragmatic and wait, possibly diminishing my chances for children???
22. Julia said the following at 2:30 PM on Apr 2:
What about those of us who are married but whose husbands insist that we wait a few more years?
Before we were married (I was 23 then) my husband said he really wanted children and that he wanted me to be a SAHM.
We would not be able to afford our mortgage if I became a SAHM. I have suggested moving, but my husband is adament that now is not the right time. I have begged him, but he refuses and gets angry. He wants to wait until he gets a promotion and all our student debt is paid off. He wants to go on vacation, have a few more years with no responsibilities etc.
I desperately want a baby and it feels so unfair that my husband will not see my side of the issue. I have been tempted to manipulate my birth control in order to get pregnant - its deceptive and wrong and I couldn't go through with it. I have been praying and praying for the last 3 years, but God doesn't seem to be changing our circumstances or my husband's mind. I never thought I would have to wait so long to have children after being married.
23. Tami said the following at 2:31 PM on Apr 2:
I know you're all being a bit tongue in cheek, but here's a little anecdote -- I went to a seminary class: primarily to learn, but of course I kept my eyes open for a good pastor type. ;) The class was packed, and mostly male. But *all* of them were married. :P
I also live in one of those fabled "high male population" areas... I'm a reasonably cute and social gal... and I still rarely meet new men!
So unless God is specifically telling you to go to seminary or move to a high-male-population area, I don't know that either of those are a simple solution. :)
And Candice, that's a great point about "owning your desire to be married." I was thinking about this this morning. So often we as women are trained to bury that desire out of fear of rejection or embarrassment or looking "too eager." While it's important not to be needy in our pursuit of marriage, I think this repression of a God-given desire has the unfortunate side effect of making us appear sexless (in terms of attractiveness, femininity, and our *God-given* sexuality expressed within His good boundaries).
24. CathyS said the following at 2:40 PM on Apr 2:
I am a 27 year old woman who would love to be married one day. I have never felt called to any specific career path. I am still going to school part-time to obtain an associate's degree after 10 years. I never saw the point in wasting money going to school, when I wasn't sure of any career path. Ironically this lack of "motivation" is one of the things that has my pastor's wife worried about whether or not I am ready to get married. They believe I should not be waiting around for a husband, but actively pursuing the life I have been given in case I don't get married. At one point I was thinking about going into social work and I was told I should go into nursing instead b/c I would make more money in case it was 50 years before I got married. To me though, I know that whatever I do, God will provide for me. Even if I stay in a low-paying job for the rest of my life and never get married, God will graciously take care of me.
How can I show people that my hope is in the Lord and not in a future husband? I desire a husband and hope to marry the man I am separated from, Lord-willing. It seems, although I could be wrong, that they believe unless I am pursuing a career while waiting for my husband that I am not living the life God called me to. I love my current job as a teacher's assistant at an elementary school, and hope to finish my Associate's Degree in the next year so I can be a substitute teacher. But I am not sure I want to pursue education further than that at this point. Is this okay? What do you all think? Any helpful scriptures?
25. Hannah C. said the following at 3:00 PM on Apr 2:
All of the people who have mentioned twenty-something women who are still single because the right man hasn't come along have very valid points.
I think this article would probably work better if it was aimed at women who have found the right guy, but are waiting to have children because of their career. I am not trying to say all women who wait do this, but I know that SOME women want to get settled into their career and have x, y, and z before they have children. Some people date through college, get married, and decide they want to wait so many years to have kids so they can get used to just being around each other.
While there is value in that, you can only wait so long. At some point, you need to stop waiting and just jump in, whether the situation is perfect or not - because situations are never perfect.
26. Amir Larijani said the following at 3:08 PM on Apr 2:
Nicole says:
I absolutely agree, Nicole. In such a case, I'd be open to pursuing adoption.
But yeah...you have no guarantees. One can, however, make high-percentage decisions.
27. LM said the following at 3:31 PM on Apr 2:
Regarding the importance of a network: I have yet to read Candice's book, but I wholeheartedly agree with comment #1 in post 16. Also: PLAN EARLY. Some friends thought that I was worrying a little too much when, at the ripe old age of 19, I was trying to get my course schedule straight so I'd be in a good position to graduate and get the job I want -- specifically because the job allows for a good work/family balance. I had been dating my (now fiance) for about two months. We're graduating this May and getting married soon after -- and, as it turns out, focusing my academic work in a specific direction early on paid off.
Whether or not a woman wants to be a SAHM, it's never too early to start arranging life (slowly, but surely) in a manner directed towards how you want to live as a family.
28. Stephanie said the following at 3:38 PM on Apr 2:
Khalil,
I totally agree. A guy came and spoke at my school saying that if Christians really want abortion to be illegal, they have to be prepared to adopt all of those unwanted children, and he was disappointed that so few Christians are adopting.
Nicole,
Great thoughts. No one has any idea what the future will bring. A couple may have not be able to have kids, or they may have a special challenge such as a child with Down's syndrome who requires life-long care. None of us knows and we have to trust God no matter what.
29. Katie B said the following at 3:46 PM on Apr 2:
a sassy sister:
I agree it is important to prepare for maturity rather than marriage, the prep for marriage wont nessesarily lead to maturity, but maturity will lead to predaredness for marriage. its also true that marriage and babies nessesitate a certain growing up that may not be possible except in practice. Life is a growth process, apparently.
I was taught that if you want to get married and have children, you shouldnt have to wait, if you want a career, you dont have to give it up completely, and that the joy in any of those things is highest in balance, because God never needs us to deny some passion or calling that he has instilled in us for the sake of another.
30. Nicole said the following at 5:24 PM on Apr 2:
Response to post 24
CathyS you are not alone! Our similarities are uncanny.
I'm also 27, working a low paying social work job , which i enjoy, but im not sure that I want to go further and try nursing. It's very frustrating to hear that girls nearly 10 years younger than myself complaining about not having a husband and kids yet when I'm getting closer to 30 and havn't had a date in nearly 7 years. All I can say is that I understand. "looking for man" will drive you crazy and make you miserable. Pursue God instead. Ask Him to bring the right man into your life. He will provide for our every need, he hasn't forgotten about us! So don't worry! In the mean time enjoy what you DO have in your life.
31. Julia said the following at 5:37 PM on Apr 2:
What's wrong with wanted a fulfilling career?
"You can't control your fertility ... A good marriage will make you happier than a good job ..."
I don't agree that the dream of marriage and children should take precedent over my personal goals.
To me (at age 18), having a good job means giving back to society and making a difference as the individual God made me to be. I believe that marriage and children is a wonderful pursuit and those are goals I have. But I'm not going to spend my early 20s trying to latch onto a man without individual happiness.
I wholeheartedly agree that women and men need to plan ahead and prepare for children. As well as that women need to have children earlier.
However, I thought the tone of the article urged marriage over personal happiness. As if a good mate and offspring are more important than our purpose on earth. I am also aware that many people would be happy getting married. And find their purpose in procreating.
Personally, I'm going to pursue what I love to do and what I feel is individually glorifying to God. And when I have reached that goal, then I can share that happiness for life with someone else and make a new life.
Whatever time that may be. At 25 or at 50. ;]
Kudos to Katie B. btw.
P.S. - You can't go back to every career after having a child/children. The game has changed or your age is a factor or your at ground level or etc. etc.
P.S.S. - I'm sorry if I took your article in the wrong way. I LOVE Boundless. This is how I initially felt after reading the article.
32. Lola said the following at 5:53 PM on Apr 2:
Khalil and Angie,
I dream of a world where all children will be brought up by loving God fearing BIOLOGICAL parents. I’m sure that you do too. Now have you heard of the concept of demand and supply? The market adjusts until demand equals supply. Your mission to adopt children instead of aiming to have children before you become infertile does not positively influence/reduce the supply of abandoned children. Do bare this in mind.
This post aims to encourage women who are thinking of getting married and having kids (If you’re thinking of having children, you should be thinking of getting married and STRICTLY vice versa) to do so before they become infertile. Please leave abortion out of this discussion considering that you view abortion as nothing more than an alternative way of having children after one has wasted their God given fertile years.
Now I am not suggesting that the whole world should boycott adoption. I am asking that we leave it out of this post. Since it seems that you are suggesting that it is ok for women to further their careers and completely ignore their biological clocks since they can always adopt. It’s ridiculous.
33. Kellie said the following at 6:11 PM on Apr 2:
I agree...to an extent. Lots of movies stars and such are waiting until they are in their 30s or 40s to have children. They make it seem like everyone can do it (most of probably neglecting to mention the expensive fertility treatments they went through). However, this doesn't mean people should panic or worry about the future. I married at 25, my husband wanted to wait a few years to have children. I admit I was worried, being in my later twenties, but God showed me my lack of faith...I was pregnant the first month we decided to try.
34. Mike said the following at 6:18 PM on Apr 2:
Wow, I love being a man (tongue in cheek). I can't speak for any of the other men that read these blogs or have posted already, but it still amazes me how we get let off the hook of responsibility on these kinds of issues all the time.
Kids are awesome. I don't know how society sent the message that men should not want children or somehow be weirded out by them, but ladies just take your husbands or boyfriends to a daycare and let them experience kids for a while, they're awesome. What man wouldn't be proud to have a child?! When I have kids, I'm sure that will be one of the best days of my life.
I'm 27 and not married, but if I was, and my wife wanted to have kids, why not? I'd be scared for sure but so what?! I still think thats part of the deal of being a man. Somewhere along the line we've got to be accountable for our role as men, caring and providing for our families as best as we can, despite our fears. Women have to go through childbirth, which I'm sure is scary enough. Ladies, hold men accountable. If you're married and want children, I don't think its unreasonble to own that desire and tell your husbands.
For all the single ladies that have posted, keep your faith, (Heb. 11). In the meantime, I'm in agreement with Matt. There are willing men out there.
35. Lola said the following at 6:27 PM on Apr 2:
Let's try and focus on the matter at hand. This article advises young women not to postpone having babies in order to work because women are most fertile in their early twenties. You can always work but evidence suggests that you won’t always be fertile.
I’m sure there are several reasons why some women don’t get married/have children in their early twenties i.e. lack of a husband/potential husband or studies e.t.c but you can choose not to let your job hold you back. It’s pretty straight forward and it’s good advice too.
36. PLH said the following at 7:21 PM on Apr 2:
What about options other than careers? If women want to have children and have met the right person, I agree that usually there is no reason to wait for the "right now." But why is it a binary choice between career/family? Can't women serve in ministry, serve other families (including church and biological), and do other things while single?
37. BDB said the following at 7:22 PM on Apr 2:
JessicaF (#13) wrote:
>>I've got an extra ticket to a ballet on Friday...but, that's too girly, isn't it! ;)<<
Just tell the guy that it's like mixing a play with mime and martial arts...
Jules (#16) wrote:
>>but those over 25 are perceived to be career focused. <<
That's because women in that age group often use "too busy with work" as a way to decline an invitation. Granted, it's also the age when their career starts to develop traction and they really might have some significant responsibilities on their plate. It's an easy habit to get into for those fending off entertainment offers by their co-workers (like going for drinks after work every single night)...and I suppose it's designed to sting less than "not interested in you."
Sarah22 (#19) wrote:
>>at least you know the money spent will definitely produce a baby in the end while infertility treatments have no guarantee.<<
Unfortunately, there is not guarantee with adoption. The statistics vary by state, but adoptive parents (like my sister) face the reality that there's a good 30% chance the birth mother will change her mind, and any money paid by the adoptive parents for pre-natal care or living expenses during he pregnancy is just gone - easy to invest $10,000 and have nothing to show for it at the end. This is one of the risks taken in the adoption process in the U.S. It is heartbreaking for the prospective adpotive parents, but there really isn't a legal recourse when the birth mother has a change of heart. I'm not sure there can be - that would be like "selling" a baby and enforcing the sales contract.
Tami (#23) wrote:
>>So unless God is specifically telling you to go to seminary or move to a high-male-population area, I don't know that either of those are a simple solution. :) <<
Yeah, pretty much all the other students in my seminary classes were married guys. When I took a few classes at a Bible college, there were lots of unmarried women. So, maybe the problem is "seminary" is so profession-focused. Unless you're on a campus with a university that offers more programs than just seminary.
38. Patrick said the following at 7:24 PM on Apr 2:
Jules said:
On the flip side, there are single Christian men (like myself) who'd love to figure out how to meet single Christian women, too. There are men who likewise deeply desire wives and children to lead and protect and provide and care for and raise up in the Lord.
In fact, I recently quit my job, packed my bags, left behind friends and family, and moved from my home state of California to the Midwest to pursue a relationship with a Christian girl -- which, sadly for me, didn't work out. But the fact is that I was (and am) willing to go to great lengths to pursue marriage with a godly woman.
The question now, I suppose, is how can these marriage-minded, God-glorifying Christian men and women meet one another?
I've started to try other things like online Christian dating sites, singles events, asking godly people and others for single Christian women they might know of, but it does seem pretty tough out there -- at least speaking for myself as a Christian man.
I don't think I'm immature and not growing in the Lord (by His grace). I have a good job now and a solid career opportunity for the future (I'm looking at med school). I'm open to serving wherever the Lord may lead (e.g. inner-city or overseas missions). I don't think I have a totally unlikeable personality. I don't think I'm way extreme or anything, and immediately scare off women. I could be wrong but I don't think I'm totally repulsive to look at either. I mean, I don't have three Frankenstein heads growing out of my left shoulder (um, as far as I know). I think I have a good sense of humor. Or at least a passable one. I may make bad jokes but I don't make inappropriate ones! (Speaking of which, if it's not inappropriate for me to mention this here, and if it is I apologize and editors please feel free to delete this part, a friend and I even tried to pull an April Fool's Day prank of sorts.) Anyway, I think I'm at least a decent enough guy.
Why can't I get a date?
And I don't think I have a ridiculously high standard or something. I'm just looking for a godly Christian woman, who's growing in grace, and who I can get along with, more or less.
Really, I'm just wondering how we Christian men who do desire marriage and a family can get to know more Christian women, so that we can gradually figure out if we're right for one another, and like one another, and so on.
But I for one don't know how to connect with single Christian women. As a guy I'm as baffled as the sisters here seem to be!
Hm, I might consider moving to a Christian college or seminary town if there were a higher ratio of men to women though. I could very well be wrong but from what I understand it's more like 75% men to 25% women. Good news for the sisters though! :-)
Anyway, sorry for the rant.
39. Laurie said the following at 7:32 PM on Apr 2:
CathyS - I can understand your situation with school. I am one semester away from graduating with an Associate's Degree. After that, I don't plan on pursuing any more education. I don't feel called to a certain career path either, in fact, I don't want to be a "career woman." I'm not against women working, and I will be working soon because I have to, but I want to work in the job that the Lord has placed me in, doing something that in some way serves Him, and not my own desires for success or money. My unsaved friends, and even a lot of my saved friends, think I am crazy for planning on stopping my education at an Associate's Degree right now. I have had many people try to push me into nursing too, but I have decided against that for several reasons, one of them being that I want a job with normal hours. I think nursing is a great job and I love nurses, it's just not for me. I can understand what you were saying in your post...A lot of it reminded me of myself and my own doubts and confusion about my education and what the right thing to do is. As Christians, we are not our own and I feel very strongly that I should not choose a career path or job that I want to do and then ask the Lord to bless it, but ask Him, what would You have me to do? Praying for you.
40. Sandrine said the following at 7:45 PM on Apr 2:
Julia (#22), I understand what you mean. I'm getting married next month, and as I will be turning 35 shortly after, I really have no time to loose if I want a family. So I started to discuss the subject with my future husband almost as soon as we were engaged, because I needed to know how he felt about it. At first he did not really know (seems like he did not think about it too much before I asked), but he said something like "if you want to have children right away, that's OK". But then he started saying that maybe we should wait a year, to get used to married life first, etc. And of course there are financial reasons - I am earing twice as much as he does, I carry the health insurance - and I want to quit my job to take care of our baby, should we get one. He agrees with this, but he is worried that it would be difficult to make it work on his salary only. My argument was that the more we get used to two salaries, the more difficult it will be... So after more discussions, we agreed that I was not going to take the pill or any other hormonal contraceptives, and that we would just take it from the Lord - if I get pregnant right away, great; if not, then we'll take it from Him too and seek His guidance for the future (adoption/foster care?). We spoke about fertility treatments, and we don't feel this would be a good option for us. Anyway, I'm really happy that we were able to discuss that and agree on something. His brother has been married for 3 years, he wants children, but his wife wants to finish her degree first - this is a situation that can be very frustrating.
41. Teshia said the following at 7:58 PM on Apr 2:
I am in graduate school, single and 30 years old. Going to graduate school because I would love to be able to work part time teaching at a local college while I raise children. Who I will have when, God willing, I meet the right husband. My career choice is not selfishly to fulfil my dreams, but to live as a loving mother while still doing something intellectually (I love learning). The challenge, I have not meet anyone yet! Did I put off marriage, on the contrary, I long for it. Do I come across as not wanting to get married, I hope not. But as one entry said, what to do, what to do. Still waiting upon the Lord and a Godly man - not asking much - only one thing "must love Jesus, must love Jesus!!"
42. a sassy sister said the following at 9:12 PM on Apr 2:
katie b: thank you for the encouragement. My experience as a single in the church has been in two extremes when it comes to marriage and singleness. You have one camp that seems to favor shaming and scaring people to pursue marriage and another camp that encourages suppressing your desires regarding marriage and singleness. I feel more in the middle---I would like to be married, but I don't think it's going to make me a complete or whole person.
candice:
I have read your book, and after reading it, I did not feel better after reading it---I felt condemned for simply being my age and still single. I also felt as if somehow marriage and singleness were being compared to each other, and once again singles were put on the low end of the totem pole and married couples and families were put so high at the top that I could get nosebleed. While I believe it is wrong for those to bash marriage or singleness, I just feel like marital status becomes another thing that people have to overcome in order to be loved and accepted by the church.
In regards to your posting about encouraging women to marry young for diminishing fertility struggles, I would also hope that you are encouraging all men and women to be full functioning adults in society by their 18th birthday(you did seem to encourage women to be on the lookout for their spouses while in college). I guess to me it would make sense that 18+ Christian singles have the ability to demonstrate the total maturity needed for a healthy marriage relationship.
43. Becky F. said the following at 11:30 PM on Apr 2:
Michele (#20) said: "Ultimately, we have to trust in God. Remember Sarah!!"
And don't forget Elizabeth!!
It's true that if you decide to wait until x, y & z happen before you start having babies, you'll never start! My husband is in Seminary (if I hadn't met him when I did, I would have joined the Seminary choir a year later when I graduated from college to meet a guy, haha) and he had 2 years of classwork and 1 year of internship to do when we got married. I was going to be the primary income while he was taking the fulltime classes. We decided we weren't going to have a baby until the internship year, which fell between those 2 years of classwork. Well, we figured that on a pastor's salary we'd never have as much money as we wanted, so 5 months after we got married we decided that was the right time to get pregnant. Our son was born right at the beginning of the internship year, and so I get to stay home with him the entire time!!
I'm not looking forward to having to go back to work for this next school year while my husband is back in the classroom fulltime, and I wouldn't mind having a smaller gap between our son and our next child (we're planning on waiting to get pregnant again until he's an ordained pastor, which would make our son about 2 years old before I got pregnant again), but we have to be responsible with the means that God has given us, and we don't want the financial stress of having 2 children before he's done with Seminary. We had horrible maternity coverage with our son, and it cost a lot more money than we expected (and we were estimating high!). Then we couldn't get our son on private health insurance because of a slow developing kidney, which they considered a preexisting condition, so that was even more money... but I digress, haha.
Our view of perfect timing is sometimes far beyond what is reasonable. God is faithful, and He will provide for those who trust in Him (and even those who don't!). We can't wait for forever, and I can always have a career when my kids are grown up!
44. christabel said the following at 2:20 AM on Apr 3:
afternoon,
i agree with comment number 2, Khalil, yes chances are the older you get the less the chances of conceiving.
the only problem i have with the 'get married soon or forget about children statement' is it misses the God of wonders part. im not one for jumping of a bridge, just to check whether God will actually rescue me, or carrying a snake. but i do believe in a God whose plans cannot be thwarted. the time is coming when life and death will be significantly diffrent, light and darkness...
we are in a generation where children take having children for granted. why are we as children of God, 'called into a heritage of people who fear God'not adopting. after all we as Christians know more than anyone what it is like to be adopted into a family of Grace. why do we still hold to our earthly beliefs of 'we must have children from our own bodies, they must have our genes'. it doesn't define us anymore, so i think if you are getting slightly edgy, well,...you wont get married until its in Gods time, and if trying for a baby is failing then i think we need to take a page from Hannah, ask God what his will is, maybe you are pushing the wrong will into your prayers, into your life...
45. AB said the following at 8:22 AM on Apr 3:
As a woman in her late twenties, I am praying boldly and not shunning matchmakers. However, I must say I totally agree with Khalil. I am not worried about my "ticking clock" AT ALL because I would actually prefer to adopt anyway. I am not going to be devestated if I can't have biological children.
46. Esther said the following at 9:00 AM on Apr 3:
Matt and Mike, I am free this Friday.
47. Kelly said the following at 9:14 AM on Apr 3:
I am 31, engaged, and finally getting married in 7 months. I didn't meet him until I was 30. During those LONG years of waiting I completed a bachelor's degree, spent 2.5 years overseas as a missionary, came back and focused on my career, finished a Master's degree, and then bought a house. All of this while single. Just on the note of waiting for prince charming to arrive, something that God kept saying to me over and over again was that it was all about His timing. I think that's one reason why He allowed me to do all of the above while single.
My current dilemma is how much focus I should continue to put on my career vs marriage. I'm an accountant and I'm currently studying to get my CPA license. While planning a wedding. This is a huge amount of stress. He is an artist and I'm an accountant and I currently make more than him. Getting the CPA license will bring me more credibility/flexibility in getting a good job and will increase my salary potential. But is all of that really important when it comes to valuing my relationship with him? Then there is the dilemma that now that I'm 31 and getting married I'm very ready to get going on the baby process. What's a girl to do?
48. P&P said the following at 11:06 AM on Apr 3:
kelly:
Congratuations on getting as far as you have on your own. I suggest you go even further, but with your husband at your side. As tempting as it may be to toss your achievements aside for a child, you have to consider money. You currently and will likely continue to out-earn your husband. A CPA is an incredible asset and you should not cast it aside when you're so close to getting it.
Even if you take some time off to be at home, that CPA will practially guaranatee employment when you decide to return to the work force. In addition, it will make you a hot property if you choose to pick up some part-time work if you're at home with children.
In the early stages of a relationship it's easy to get stars in your eyes and see your future as a long and winding road with no real bumps or detours. After a few years, you, like every other married couple, will discover the road is as rutted as a highway in Minnesota after a bad winter. That CPA will be like a repair kit in the trunk of your car; you might not need it, but it sure comes in handy when you get a flat.
As much as Candice loves to promote marriage and stay at home motherhood for all, it's simply not an option for most people, regardless of how much financial planning is done in advance.
Get the CPA. You won't regret it.
49. Julia H said the following at 11:36 AM on Apr 3:
I don't think most women need to be convinced to want children sooner rather than later. It's just that the men or lack there of in their lives are not feeling the same urgency.
1. Men are typically fertile for much longer than women and they don't tend to have the same hormonal urges to procreate as women do.
2. It is extremely expensive to provide for a baby.
3. In many marriages women are making up to 2x as much as their husbands. Even if she continues working, she will likely have to take some time off for the birth and recovery.
4. Debt loads are so high these days. Even without credit card debt, student loans and mortgages can eat up most of a pay check - and mortgages are typically approved without consideration of tithing.
5. Men don't seem to want to grow up, get married, or settle down. Even after they are married they still don't want any responsibility. Their wives become replacement moms and their lives go on as before but with a housekeeper, "benefits", and an extra paycheck.
6. It is generally accepted that most couples will wait until their 30s to start a family. Society tends to look down on couples who start earlier as if they were too irresponsible, unmotivated or stupid to use birth control. The same thing applies to families with more than 3 kids.
- I am a different Julia than the one in #31. I'm the one from #22.
50. Nicole (from post 11) said the following at 11:58 AM on Apr 3:
Kelly (47),
In regards to your question of how much focus you should put on career vs. marriage. I got married at 29 and we have been married almost 3 years. I would do absolutely anything to trade my career so I can focus on a family. I planned on working only until I got pregnant. Sadly, 3 years later, here I am still working.
Even though we have no idea when or if a baby will ever come, we do have a plan in place. I plan to quit my job within the next 6 months to pursue an at home business so I have more flexibility with a family when we do eventually have one. My advice is, if you really want to stay home, then revolve all other decisions around that. Plan to stay home, if that's what you really want. What can you do about that right now? How can you work towards that goal? It does involve a lot of "rethinking". Will the CPA help or hinder your plans to stay home with your family, if that is your ultimate goal?
51. Candice Watters said the following at 12:28 PM on Apr 3:
My heart goes out to those wives who want babies, but whose husbands are resistant or even hostile to the idea. I would encourage you to continue to pray for wisdom about how to broach the subject with your husbands in conversation, as well as for God to cause a change of heart on their parts. Something else to consider and pray for are mentors who can talk with you about this.
We had a wonderful couple befriend us who had four grown children and were very biblical in their understanding of marriage and family. They not only challenged our plan to wait to start a family until we had paid of our school loans and credit cards and saved up enough for the down payment on a house, they also reminded us that we might find our fertility window had closed when we finally decided we were "ready" for children.
"Budget for everything but babies," our friends said. And they were right. Each time we've grown our family, God has provided. I've been able to do a lot of freelance work from home and Steve has continued to succeed at work, earning promotions and raises along the way. And I've seen lots of couples figure out ways to make it work. (It's statistically supported that married men with children make, on average, more than any other category).
It's the husband's role to provide. But it's God who is our ultimate provider and when we are faithful, He fills in the gaps.
52. BDB said the following at 1:02 PM on Apr 3:
Nichole (#50) wrote:
>>Will the CPA help or hinder your plans to stay home with your family, if that is your ultimate goal? <<
One thing a CPA will do: make it very, very easy to get people to take you seriously when you say you want to do accounting part-time. There are lots and lots of women in accounting. There are opportunities for good, part-time work for skilled people. Picture this: part-time bookeeping for a church that offers free child care in exchange for you handling their financial statements like a professional. Lots of opportunities for flexibility. Small, private firms also would be happy to hire a CPA just during tax season, leaving 8 months of the year open for example.
Laurie (#39) wrote:
>>one of them being that I want a job with normal hours. <<
My grandmother solved that problem by working for a doctor's office; though admittedly during WWII she worked nights as a nurse. She still drinks a pot of coffee every day at age 92, too. (The doctor made her cut back to that...)
53. P&P said the following at 1:04 PM on Apr 3:
"Budget for everything but the babies"?
Oy, Candice.
I was raised the G-d helps those who help themselves. The idea that you will be provided for regardless of how poorly you plan is irresponsible and reckless. As much as you have been lucky up to this point, you won't always be in that position.
Sorry, but I've been through enough to know better than to have a safety net of savings and "Plan B," if my current situation goes south.
I grew up watching a family member suffer through a serious illness that sapped our finances. Sure we got through it (and I have a book filled with a million ways to cook beans), but we "cowboyed up" and took charge of the situation, not sit passivly by and expect the Almighty to take care of the situation.
Maybe this is a topic for another blog post, but I'd love to hear how you expect to take care of things should someone become seriously ill, unable to work or the work dries up while home heating bills skyrocket.
54. BDB said the following at 1:17 PM on Apr 3:
Candice (#51) wrote:
>>(It's statistically supported that married men with children make, on average, more than any other category).<<
Yes, but stastical correlation is not causality.
Marriage does not cause financial success. There's lots of divorced men and women in poor financial shape. The people who STAY married have the character attributes that also help them succeed at work.
Case in point: conflict resolution. Someone who is married with children to support has a much, much higher motivation to "suck it up" at work and put up with the hassles. They usually don't just quit when they're fed up. This may in part be because they can come home to someone who is supportive; as opposed to someone who goes drinking with their buddies who advise him to not put up with that situation at work.
Frankly, I got promoted after enduring a number of days I was ready to quit, but I didn't. People who stick with it and successfully work through conflicts with their co-workers are much easier to promote, and they're more successful after being promoted.
55. Sarah22 said the following at 1:17 PM on Apr 3:
I am with those who do not feel called to pursue additional education past a 2 year degree. In fact, I have only earned a 1 year vocational degree. I work in the healthcare industry and when I was in school at the end of my 1 year program I had decided I would continue on to become a RN but I no longer have that desire, at the time I LOVED what I was learning and I was extremely interested in becoming a RN. Fast forward a year and half and at the moment I am not working at all but instead helping to care for my Grandmother and each day my desire to become a wife and mother grows. I don't really have an interest in my career anymore, I can hardly see myself going back to work eventually although I probably will have to until I am married and that will be OK if so.
At first I really had to examine myself to see if I am just feeling lazy about not wanting to work but I came to the conclusion that is not the case. I am not drawn to having a career, although I have been told over and over that I am very good at what I do, I get no fulfillment form working. I get a great deal of fulfillment and happiness from cleaning, organizing, cooking and caring for others. So, I have come to God over and over again asking if I am sinning by being lazy and not wanting to work or if this is just Him strengthen my desire for my future as a wife and mother and He's shown me that the answer is no, I am not lazy, He’s using all these circumstances to prepare me for my future. I trust in wherever He places me, if I go back to work that is OK as well. But I know that is not my future. My future is taking care of my husband and my children and that fills me with joy and peace for the future.
56. Trevor D. said the following at 2:07 PM on Apr 3:
Julia H (49): You are so right about your point #6! I was 23 when my first son was born, and we got lots of surprised reactions about being so young.
I still get that reaction when I and my four sons are out and about: "Are they all yours?" :) (though I find people in Britain are more accepting - my eldest was born in New York).
And, of course, behind some of these comments there's the idea that contraceptives always work. They do most of the time, but my eldest was conceived despite our best efforts.
57. single certain girl said the following at 3:34 PM on Apr 3:
ugh. it's just so confusing sometimes! i've written and thought a lot about it before, and i think it just boils down to a work vs wait thing. for the most part i have faith, and i feel that god has been shaping and molding me and that marriage will come. and if i'm supposed to have kids, i will.
other times i get worried... should i be working harder at this? should i get back on eharmony and match.com (i've been on both multiple times, they dont' bring out the best in me:-)? am i not taking the spouse hunt seriously enough?
and then i bounce back to thinking that i'm doing more than enough things to meet new people. i'm putting myself out there. i'm trying to be open and receptive and encouraging. and i shouldn't have to HUNT; i should be pursued.
that's how it's been the last few years.... bouncing back and forth between thinking 'i'm not working hard enough at this' and 'i shouldn't have to work this hard; i should pray and live my life and just meet someone.'
so i have no idea what the answer is. i still have faith, but the questions aren't going away. now i'm tackling the buy a house or not question.
58. Julia said the following at 4:42 PM on Apr 3:
I have a saying for you P&P that my mom used to say to me.
"God will always save you from ongoing traffic. That being said, don't walk blindly into the street."
This is Julia from #31.
59. JT said the following at 4:43 PM on Apr 3:
What a great article! I agree that our generation (X) has been encouraged to forgo other pursuits in the pursuit of career goals. Singletons - wake up before it's too late. If you've worked all the circles in your town, consider moving, even for a year or so, to another one. Widen your networks and branch out to areas where you might meet new people. Do whatever you've got to do. Just don't sit at home and wait for Mr Right to knock. Chances are he won't.
The other thing to consider is putting away those horrible Meg Ryan movies that brainwash you into thinking that your lovelife will look like a movie. The right guy/girl for you may look much different than you expected. He/she might even be in your circle of friends but you already turned them down in your mind years ago. Think outside the box.
Final thought - ENJOY those single years. Once the babies do come along, life changes considerably. Richer, yes. Different, yes. Much harder, yes.
60. Claire said the following at 5:34 PM on Apr 3:
"I'd give up my job in a heartbeat to marry and raise children. My fertile years are diminishing but I don't know what to do."
(Jules #1)
ME TOO. In a heartbeat. I'm 25, live in a small town and have no prospects now. In fact, I'm going shopping with a friend this weekend to find her wedding dress. While I am so excited for her, she's 5 years younger than me and I keep wondering, when is it my turn? However, I know God has the best plan and I'm waiting on Him. Until then... =)
61. Esther said the following at 8:01 AM on Apr 4:
Candice, I think you're preaching to the choir on this one. Do you forget that you write for Boundless, the site that encourages single Christians who, for the most part, want to get married and have babies? It seems it would be more helpful if you instead wrote articles and blog posts that remind us single girls that God is good and hopefully one day gentlemen will one day ask for our hands and help us make lots of babies-- regardless of how much time is left on our fertility clocks.
62. Candice Watters said the following at 10:09 AM on Apr 4:
Esther,
I do wish everyone was as convinced as you are. Unfortunately, I believe single Christians have absorbed more of the culture's messages and mantras than they often realize. I've known many, and I was one of them back when I first got married, who believe that it's just fine to put short- and mid-term financial goals ahead of having babies.
I do want to encourage single women that marriage can still happen. But that message can't take place without the rest of the context: women have a role to play, the cultural pull toward educational and economic achievement tends to undermine early and strong marriages, and churches need to do more to esteem marriages, to challenge young men to pursue marriage, and to help good matches happen.
63. karen said the following at 7:10 PM on Apr 4:
I have two words for what has destroyed the fabric of family life in a matter of a few generations...premarital sex. Just think about it. Not that it didn't exist before, but it's only in the last few generations that it has really become culturally acceptable for adults in their twenties, thirties, forties and beyond to remain single. For most people, if they weren't having sex during these times, such a lifestyle would be a near impossibility.
How does this go along with the "fertility" issue? Just from my own personal experience and in speaking with numerous female friends (all in our late twenties) it is not so much that we women deliberately focus on careers OVER families. It is that we are victims of a series of circumstances:
1) we date--yet all men our age can have access to sex without marriage, and can have babies decades from now when they decide they want to grow up. So why grow up now, for us??
2) we are single-- single people living alone need incomes. Hence we must work.
3) we are college educated-- college educated women tend to have CAREERS as opposed to jobs.
The way women of my generation see it, we have two options. We can either twiddle our thumbs through our twenties and thirties and possibly end up single and childless anyway, or we can have accomplished careers (and possibly end up single and childless).
As a single mother of a special needs son, I have no other option than to work at a career while placing my son in a day care. To be honest it is totally heartbreaking to hear single women my age and older talk about adoption or sperm banks. It is especially concerning to me knowing how hard it is to be a single parent, and how much I wish for that stable family unit if I had had a choice in the matter, as these women do. But it is if they are bypassing or have totally given up on the idea of marriage as a precursor to the ideal family life. They have stopped putting their hope in men to step up to the plate.
To round out my reply, let me just say that if sex were taken off the table it's practically a biological fact that all of those "not ready to commit" men would be ready a lot sooner than they think.
64. Kyra said the following at 7:26 PM on Apr 4:
Me again. This comment is for Mike regarding his response ("kids are awesome")
Mike: I am 28. Where do you live? LOL
No, but seriously... I've noticed too many of my fears and the fears of my female friends center around having to depend on immature men. I worry that no man is going to want to date me once he finds out I have a disabled toddler ("baggage"). My friends worry no man will want to date a woman who:
--wants lots of children
--wants to stay at home
--already owns a home
--already has a great career
--is older than Mary Kate Olsen
--fill in the blank
Sometimes I think society and women (admittedly myself included) don't allow men the opportunity to be manly, and so they aren't. Yes, "women can do it all" in terms of career and children, but why should they have to or even want to?
65. a sassy sister said the following at 10:05 AM on Apr 5:
kyra,
I think you're on to something when it comes to gender roles and allowing the opportunity for men to be "manly". The big problem is that we are letting culture(even traditional ones that may be more in line with our values but are not biblical) dictate our understanding and application of godly masculinity and femininity. The problem is when that application of masculinity and femininity is not based on God's Word but on tradition, and tradition is not always right, for sometimes it exists simply because no one has actually challenged or questioned its history, motivation, or real roots.
Also, the statement about "having it all" has a tendency to really locate our ideas about success in life, which, even in the church is really the result of allowing CULTURE and not Scripture to dictate what success is. I believe that success is operating in God's will for your life. I believe that as Christians that will be different for all of us individually. We need to give each other liberty in these areas in regards to what that success is for each person, and stop taking our individual success in Christ and MAKING IT A MANDATE FOR EVERYONE ELSE's LIFE. No matter what a person's marital status, we are family in Christ. We need to exercise grace and truth in dealing with this very subject.
And as for your friend's fears, I do understand them. But we do know that we cannot allow our fears to dictate our decisions--God's truth should. Their worries are coming from a very real place, but that could very well mean that they need to really change their environment (and attitude) in regards to the kind of man they would want to meet. The list that you gave means that they are waiting for someone that is demonstrating maturity in those areas, so hopefully they are walking in those areas with maturity and also building relationships with people who are demonstrating that maturity as well.
66. Mike said the following at 6:34 PM on Apr 7:
To Kyra: I'm from Wisconsin ;-) Have faith, Heb. 11. Not every man is immature. I'm saying a prayer for you and your child tonight.
To Sassy sister: I agree in that the unbiblical maxims of popular culture are now becoming accepted "traditions" or norms in our society. Look for Albert Mohler's "marks of manhood" article on this site. This is something that personally made a lot of sense to me and I think everyone would benefit from reading. Unfortunately, a lot of the opposite characteristics of this article are celebrated as true "male" characteristics in popular culture.
67. electric_bonai said the following at 1:01 AM on Apr 8:
What about those of us who DON'T really want to be married and don't particularly want children?
68. Christina (in green) said the following at 9:24 AM on Apr 8:
Sassy Sister,
I'm not certain, but I understand you to have a strong opposition with the "assumption" that women should stay at home and men should work.
The problem is when that application of masculinity and femininity is not based on God's Word but on tradition, and tradition is not always right, for sometimes it exists simply because no one has actually challenged or questioned its history, motivation, or real roots.
Maybe not God's word...but wouldn't you agree that how God made human beings could be part of his statement to us? I mean, some things clearly don't need to be stated in the Bible for us to understand how the world works.
For 9 months, a woman carries her child with her from conception to birth. For an additional several months, a mother's milk protects her child from illnesses by providing the antibodies already in her system to her child. It makes sense for the mother to be the one that stays at home during these months. COMMON sense, biologically. Which can make as much a statement to God's purpose as anything in the bible.
At this point, people have already noted the ludicracy of a successful business woman who takes time out to take care of her child...She puts her career on hold for a certain period of time, thereby stunting the career development. However the husband does not need to stop working in order to have a baby or breast feed the baby. Which makes more sense? Who should be providing for the mother and child? Why do these "traditional" roles need to be laid out in scripture for us to acknowledge the common sense of them?
The woman is called to submit to her husband (scripturally). The man is called to be a leader and protector of his wife and family (scripturally). Parents are called to raise their children up in the way of the Lord (scripturally).
Why is it so frustrating to you that the "traditional roles" of parents parenting, women taking care of children, and husbands working and providing are so heavily touted by some people on this blog?
Maybe, because after logically examining the situations, living it, experiencing it, analyzing, and studying it those people have come to the conclusion that that way is more consistent with scripture than the other and actually upholds the scriptural commands more effectively and efficiently than the other.
69. electric_bonzai said the following at 5:12 PM on Apr 8:
Christina, I think that you make very valuable points.
One concern I have with discussion of traditional roles and men and women is that there can be abit of a disjunct in discussions between the general/average and the individual or particular.
Taking as granted that men and women do have these differences - we are really talking about MEN and WOMEN, a collective, a general, an average.
Individual people differ VERY widely.
Sometimes I get the feeling that people are telling those of us who are really 'different' and do NOT fit into a one size conception of gender personality and role that there is something wrong with us for not being what we are expected to be.
Also, I don't think what works biologically in the body always fits entirely with what is in the head, with the different psyches of different people.
70. Rachael said the following at 6:02 PM on Apr 8:
A Sassy Sister (65) wrote:
"The problem is when that application of masculinity and femininity is not based on God's Word but on tradition, and tradition is not always right [...] "
Mike (66) wrote: "I agree in that the unbiblical maxims of popular culture are now becoming accepted "traditions" or norms in our society."
-->Amen times infinity times infinity and beyond! Christianese maxims (not just related to guy/gal stuff) are all over churches and born again hearts. Always we should have the mentality that it is SCRIPTURE that should determine standards, NOT popular holy-looking maxims!!!! This is an important mentality to have even in churches or communities comprised of members who adhere to sound theologies. However, this awareness must be combined with humility and may sometimes/often be kept in the heart. And often times it is possible that the maxim/idea, though not explicit in Scripture, might be a wise one to adopt. However, it must be remembered that the opinion about a particular gray area, even if commonly accepted is not necessarily absolute. Scripture is absolute. Ideas are not.
This comment might just sound like words and people might think that it is a no-brainer, but even if we think we have this mentality, I bet there are areas in which we just unquestionally accept Christianese maxims and commonly believed ideas that are not solidly found in Scripture...
I really feel like there is a lot of "Christian culture" or potential interpretations of Scripture influencing minds when that idea might not actually be found in the black and white (or red) text!
71. Edith said the following at 6:21 PM on May 9:
I completely agree. I would rather have children first, and once the children are here, then focus on a career. People change careers at least once (if not 3 times in their lives). I can picture myself being in a successful career around age 40 for as long as I will have good health to live. I can't say the same with having kids (there's a time limit on that). My husband and I have learned the difficult way by waiting and now we have infertility issues and hope that IVF will get us pregnant. There's no guarantte even with that!