Do Women Lack Options or Just Decisiveness?
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 04/11/2008 at 9:56 AM
I read an interesting article on Slate this morning. In "The Eligible-Bachelor Paradox," Mark Gimein explores what seems to be a shortage of available, appealing men. Let me preface this by saying I mean no disrespect to any of our excellent male Boundless readers. That said, I have oft heard my female friends complain about the lack of quality single men to pursue them.
Gimein first points out that the woman controls the central decision when it comes to marriage. They are the ones who have to power to say "yes" or "no" to a proposal (or at a micro level, a date). Gimein then explains the paradox (more eligible women than men) in terms of an auction.
You can think of this traditional concept of the search for marriage partners as a kind of an auction. In this auction, some women will be more confident of their prospects, others less so. In game-theory terms, you would call the first group "strong bidders" and the second "weak bidders." Your first thought might be that the "strong bidders" -- women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch -- would consistently win this kind of auction.
But this is not true. In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by "weak" bidders, who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively, while the "strong" bidders will hold out for a really great deal.
The result?
The pool of appealing men shrinks as many are married off and taken out of the game, leaving a disproportionate number of men who are notably imperfect (perhaps they are short, socially awkward, underemployed). And at the same time, you get a pool of women weighted toward the attractive, desirable "strong bidders."
Where have all the most appealing men gone? Married young, most of them -- and sometimes to women whose most salient characteristic was not their beauty, or passion, or intellect, but their decisiveness.
This reminded me of an earlier post I wrote, which considered our propensity to hold out. Perhaps the value in an article like this is to bring us back to reality, ladies. The "great deal" we're waiting for may not exist. This is not to say that a "great deal" for us -- from God -- doesn't. If, indeed, selecting a godly mate is something like an auction, I'd like to think of my Heavenly Father standing beside me, staying my hand when I'm tempted to bid on the wrong thing. And then when it's right: "Bid on this one."
What do you think of game theory and the eligible-bachelor paradox? Have women become too indecisive for their own good?
1. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:07 AM on Apr 11:
If a woman passes up us vertically-challenged guys, that's her loss! LOL
Seriously, I've seen that dynamic, and I would also suggest that it is no respecter of the sexes.
Where the women outnumber the men, the same thing goes on: the men end up being every bit as indecisive. Debbie Maken--and other women--have noted that practice by men, just as Gimein is noting that women can do it too.
It's an economic dynamic; it is no respecter of the sexes, and--sadly--good people end up getting hurt by this worldly practice when it gets used in the context of the Church, with respect to one's fellow believers.
2. Miss S said the following at 10:34 AM on Apr 11:
Oh my! This struck a nerve - I can see that theory played out in my life. There were quite a few good men that I passed up when I was younger...holding out for something "more." Now those men have become amazing husbands and fathers with terrific families, and I am just looking for a decent guy to date. Crazy true!!!
3. mindlab said the following at 10:43 AM on Apr 11:
I have a long-standing question, and this seems like a good place to ask; this is directed specifically at the young Christian women here. I would like to know if you (personally and/or women in your position generally) would consider turning down a date (or a relationship) because you do not, at that time, find the guy attractive.
In my experience, I have found that the degree to which I find a person attractive (physically, socially, etc) is strongly correlated to how well I know them. Persons who do not at first strike me as interesting at all become attractive once I spend some time getting to know them as a friend. In short, attraction (especially physical ) can be controlled, cultivated, and directed; it doesn't have to spring up on its own.
So, I have to wonder, do Christian women really allow initial attraction to drive decisions about who they will allow to pursue them?
Hopefully the phrasing of the question has not unduly biased the replies. I really am interested in your thoughts on this; it seems like many articles (like the above) assume that this normative. Obviously attraction is necessary for a relationship to grow towards marriage, but the relationship doesn't have to start with attraction does it?
4. Tami said the following at 10:53 AM on Apr 11:
Suzanne, I think the best point comes at the end of the article:
There may be those who look at this and try to derive some sort of prescription, about when to "bid," when to hold out, and when... to "settle." If you're inclined to do that, approach with care. Game theory deals with how best to win the prize, but it works only when you can decide what's worth winning."
The more we work stuff like game theory into our understanding of the process of finding a mate and getting married, the more we take God out of the process and start relying on ourselves and other people, and worrying about our respective "market value."
Amir, the whole "vertically challenged" thing goes both ways. The tall girls always wonder, "Why do the tall guys like the shorter girls?" I don't get it, either. I'm a smaller gal. And when I give a hug, I prefer to be higher than navel-level to the guy. :)
To answer your question, mindlab -- no, *this* woman doesn't allow initial impressions to be a dealbreaker. Attraction grows on me, too. I get tired of hearing people talk about "chemistry." How am I supposed to have "chemistry" with someone I barely know? Any "chemistry" I've experienced when I first met a guy has blown up in my face, so to speak. ;) I need time to get to know someone.
5. D.Williams said the following at 10:58 AM on Apr 11:
"many are married off and taken out of the game, leaving a disproportionate number of men who are notably imperfect (perhaps they are short, socially awkward, underemployed). And at the same time, you get a pool of women weighted toward the attractive, desirable "strong bidders."
Maybe it's just where I live, but there are a large number of homosexuals in the church, so a good percentage of these "notably imperfect" men like other men, leaving many would be wives single.
6. Mrs. B said the following at 10:58 AM on Apr 11:
I would certainly say women are being too picky! What you SHOULD be picky about is determining what direction God may be leading you in a relationship with someone. I think too many Christan girls eliminate perfectly wonderful men from their "potential husband prayer list" without even thinking about it because they're too short, a little awkward, etc. Or they're afraid to commit because "there might be something better out there..." - which makes me want to GAG and say "Get over yourself!" (that goes for both men and women, btw). We're far too engrossed in the societal norms of dating and are far to proud to know when something wonderful is right in front of us. Pray about it, get an answer, and do what God says to do.
I had that same complex before being engaged - I was so afraid to commit, but that fear was coming out of my pride, worried about me getting the *best* guy out there. I'm married now, and I do think I have the best guy out there for me, because I prayed and prayed about it and knew God wanted me to marry him. Done deal.
Now, my husband is not Mr. GQ, and he can be pretty awkward sometimes, but I am madly in love with him. Well, more than just "in love", but am deeply committed to him. Our foundation is strong because we know God wants us to be together. He is an *AMAZING* husband and I think a lot of girls passed him up in high school (I was his first real girlfriend) because he's not the stereotype of what women are looking for. But boy did they miss out! So HAHA, girls, I win! ;)
7. Amber said the following at 11:11 AM on Apr 11:
This is very, very true. I still have time(some youth left haha) but I am also the "catch" that can hold out. I have decided that no one is perfect, and what some might decry as settling, I know to be living in reality. It's not God's will to hold out (passivity) but to move forward (action): "doers of the Word not only hearers" applies here in a very loose context but holds truth nevertheless.
8. Lana said the following at 11:18 AM on Apr 11:
Well, mindlab, I think there has to be something of substance there - it doesn't have to be a complete attraction for me to be interested. (I say me, b/c I can't speak for all Christian women).
For me, a shared sense of humor and a kind heart are what attract me. And while a heart can change and grow, science has shown that our personalities are pretty much the same since we're very young.
I am all for giving a guy a chance, if he meets those two critiera. Otherwise, I don't want to waste my time and emotional energy.
It has been my experience also, that it is what is on the inside that attracts me to a person and enhances their outward appearance, even if they're not GQ material. Sometimes a guy that's too good-looking is a turnoff.
9. Lana said the following at 11:22 AM on Apr 11:
You know, one more thing - mindlab wrote:
"So, I have to wonder, do Christian women really allow initial attraction to drive decisions about who they will allow to pursue them?"
Don't Christian men do the exact same thing when pursuing?
10. Elizabeth said the following at 11:24 AM on Apr 11:
Regarding comment #3: I don't think that I would turn a date down only because I wasn't attracted to the man at that time, especially if I didn't know him well. However, I would probably also not immediately say yes. I think I would ponder it and pray a bit first. That said, I have never been asked on a date, so I cannot speak from personal experience. Now, if I knew the man quite well from observing him at church, etc., and I noticed some major character flaws that I had already decided would be very difficult to live with, I would likely decline. I don't know about other young women out there, but I have an automatic tendency to class any guys I meet into a potential or non-potential category. I try very hard not to let this affect how I treat them, but the mental distinction is there, and if a guy from the latter category asked me for a date, I would be much more likely to give an outright refusal.
11. Lindsey said the following at 11:24 AM on Apr 11:
To mindlab in #3. I have accepted dates with guys I don't find attractive if they have potential to be great guys. (i.e. not weird, socially normal, love Jesus) Why? Because I know myself and know that in the past, I have not thought guys were cute - and then they get cuter as I get to know them (if they have a solid foundation of a good personality and love of the Lord). So - I can't speak for all women - but I would say yes. I do think that less attractive guys are probably being evaluated way more harshly than we would evaluate a super good looking guy...because as soon as they show some kind of flaw (that may be "overlooked" in an Abercrombie model..) we can just tell ourselves "well, I am not attratced to him anyway..." Is that harsh? I hope not.
12. Amber said the following at 11:27 AM on Apr 11:
I just read mindlab#3, and I want to make a separate post on this question. Attraction for women (and I am not sure if you are boy/girl) is usually based on emotional connection after a period of conversations and interactions (that's why group interaction trumps a date at first in my opinion). The guys ability to connect with her emotionally will usually outweigh attraction in the end in other words there are similar understandings, and he listens and responds to her. However, everyone has a "type" as we love to say. I have a difficult time becoming attracted to men who are dark, and prefer blonds. One of my close friends is the exact opposite. It may be cultural or family oriented. Sometimes we gravitate towards someone who looks similar to us or a family member b/c it feels safe. It's always good to give people a chance: who knows it might be a perfect match even if he has big ears or is a bit short. Those things get less and less important the more you like each other.
13. Sarah22 said the following at 11:49 AM on Apr 11:
mindlab:
To answer your question from my viewpoint...to be completely honest the only reason I would turn down a date with a guy as far as looks wise is if his teeth were rotting out of his head (not that he's not worth loving but that is the only physical thing that would really turn me off)...aside from that I would at this point accept any date offered to me, I tend to find any man who is willing to put himself out there attractive enough to be worth going on at least one date...God lately has been giving me the insight to understand that what's inside is so much more important and thus I can see myself ending up with just about any type of guy as far as looks wise...if he loves God that will be quite attractive in itself...I wouldn’t say I’m desperate at all but my desire to marry and have a companion is so strong at this point that I am very open to guys with many different looks...short, tall, think hair, thinning hair, etc. etc...Boundless has really helped me to downgrade my standards, in an uplifting way. Anyway, I hope this answers your question...
14. single certain girl said the following at 11:54 AM on Apr 11:
tami, i hear ya;
"Amir, the whole "vertically challenged" thing goes both ways. The tall girls always wonder, "Why do the tall guys like the shorter girls?" I don't get it, either. I'm a smaller gal. And when I give a hug, I prefer to be higher than navel-level to the guy. :)"
shorter men, i apologize. i've tried. i really have. i just can't do it. i have prayed and i have tried. i am 6'1", and i have struggled with feeling feminine since junior high... in my heart of hearts i long to end up with someone taller than me, even if just by an inch or so (though a good 3 or 4 inches would really be awesome).
so yeah. it's not you, it's me. :-) seriously.
15. Anna said the following at 12:13 PM on Apr 11:
Another lovely post from Suzanne.
I think a large part of the problem is we gals are not very actively encouraged to look for a godly man and in a godly manner. True, there's attention paid to related issues like physical activity, or whether to "date" or "court" or whatnot, but for most ladies the real serious discussions of men don't hit until near the close of college. There's lots of talk about guys in the worldly sense and in the sappy sense ("I want him to bring chocolates and kittens every day!"), but the world and even the church doesn't always encourage the type of deep-thinking and character searching that should surround this topic.
I remember having lunch with my pastor my junior year of college, and he asked what type of man I hoped to marry. My response was: [Silence] "Wow. Christian definitely. But I've never really thought about that!" Young people (not just women) are asked what they want to be when they grow up, and what they want to major in, and all sorts of "me" questions, but there's not an emphasis on the type of mate to look for and, importantly, to begin looking! So, you tend to settle those other issues first and then turn more intentionally to thinking over marriage, and by then it's easy to feel like you've missed the boat. Now, in my mid-20s, it seems like the godly men assume the ladies my age are focused on careers, when we're really ready to settle down! Without a solid idea of the reality of marriage and the truly desireable qualities of a spouse, it would be much easier to fall victim to "holding out" or even, like with several friends of mine, an unbeliever.
What I'm trying to say is that instead of thinking through these issues once you've decided you're ready to pursue marriage or have a "crush" on a particular person, the conversations about dating and marriage should begin sooner. Before you would meet potential mates, you'd want your ideas on men/women and marriage already pretty solid, and it would keep you from missing out on a lovely partner in the meantime while you're pursuing other goals.
mindlab: I've unfortunately seen this happen to some extent, but I don't think all women are like that. "Cute" guys may get attention, but lots of women melt not so much over what a guy looks like, but how he acts. Give me a man who loves the Lord and shows kindness to his friends and strangers over an Adonis anyday!
16. Sarah said the following at 12:23 PM on Apr 11:
Wow - that's an interesting way to look at it...
17. Patrick said the following at 12:32 PM on Apr 11:
I have a question please.
What about when, for example, everything seems great "on paper" between a Christian man and woman -- e.g. both are growing in grace and bearing fruit; both are spiritually, emotionally, socially, and otherwise mature and "prepared" for marriage; friends and family and other godly people in the church can possibly see them as a good fit for one another; the man has a job and means to provide for a future wife and family; both desire to marry and God willing have children; both appreciate and like and even enjoy the other's personality and company; both have the same goals and plans in serving the Lord (such as becoming medical missionaries); both find the other physically attractive; both always strive to treat the other as respectfully and lovingly as possible as fellow believers (no defrauding of emotions or sexual impurity whatsoever); both have treated the relationship as biblically as possible, for instance, with the man taking the initiative and asking the woman out, and the woman accepting; both did experience at least some romantic attraction for several months; and so on -- but then the woman later discovers she simply isn't romantically attracted to the man anymore (although she does see the man as a good friend)?
I'm asking because that (more or less) seems to have been what happened in my case.
18. Tim said the following at 12:37 PM on Apr 11:
I've seen this personally, girls who lament how miserable and unchristian everyone they've dated so far, all they want is a nice guy who wants to go to church, doesn't cheat on her, or drink too much, not bad looking, a job, and most importantly not afraid to commit. And one that exceeds all that and more comes along, she likes him, thinks he is great, but the result, is she rejects him and raises the bar. Since clearly if he was happy to 'settle' for her, she could do better, so she needs to hold out for "God's best" and not settle for him.
19. Andrew Randazzo said the following at 12:39 PM on Apr 11:
I think guys do struggle with indecisiveness, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one commenting that thinks this.
It goes both ways, and that's why there are so many break ups because people just aren't sure. In fact, I see indecisiveness on both sides but in different forms.
For the guys, they are indecisive from the start and many times don't even initiate the relationship or take forever to do it. For the girls, I find them to be the ones who will go into the relationship if the guy leads to that point, but the girls then become indecisive and usually are the ones that break it off.
I think the responsiblity falls on the guys in both areas. The guys need to take the initiative to engage in a relationship with a girl, and once that relationship has started, the guy needs to be the leader spiritually.
Part of that leading is helping the girl grow to a point where she sticks with her decision to be with the guy, and helping her have a more vertically focused relationship on God and what he wants, rather than a horizontally focused relationship on the guy.
20. Katie B said the following at 12:46 PM on Apr 11:
I don't lack either, I just decide no when the wrong offers come along.
21. Annika said the following at 12:49 PM on Apr 11:
In answer to comment #3,
I would turn down a date from someone I barely know, whether or not I find them attractive. But if I know them somewhat well, I would probably accept at least 1 date, assuming I respected him and didn't have reason to rule him out as a potential suitor.
I think it's important to get to know people in a group setting before deciding to date, because dating can lead to false impressions as each person is on their "best behavior." After seeing someone who's not pursuing you specifically in a group situation, you can better judge their character before accepting a date.
22. Marie said the following at 12:56 PM on Apr 11:
When reading this post, I kind of got the impression that Gimein was implying that all of the "most appealing" men get married before the ones that would consequently be less appealing.
I haven't even had a chance to get into the auction yet, because I guess I haven't caught any man's eye yet. Do any other women find it incredibly easy to tie your lack of interested men to your self worth? It is a constant battle for me!
23. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:06 PM on Apr 11:
Yet another example of the cost of delaying marriage
24. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:23 PM on Apr 11:
D. Williams says:
25. Nicole said the following at 1:36 PM on Apr 11:
I have two comments.
The first is from a personal perspective. I do think this article is probably quite true. During high school I chose not to date and in college I went to an all-female institution. Now, I am only 23 (and currently in graduate school), but I find that most men my age in the church are married. They are some that are closer to 30, which is fine, but I can see reasons as to why they are somewhat less attractive options (he's 30 and living with his mom, he's 30 and has mountains of debt still from school not a sign of good financial management, he's 30 and still can't talk to girls, he's 28 but he goes out and drinks every night, you get the picture). I see most of my friends I grew up with are already married to great men and I wonder WHERE ARE THEY? Wait, they are already married -- straight out of college. Not to say I'm entirely discouraged about this but I do believe there is a strong element of truth in it. While saying that though, I don't think it explains the story entirely.
On another note, as an economics PhD student and avid student of game theory, I read the original paper linked from the article as well. The bid idea is a well-developed idea in game theory. And the application is a very good one, but always remember the caveat at the end -- it tells you when to bid to win, but you have to understand what you are actually winning. In game theory we have to give everything payoffs, normally these payoffs are in forms of utility (how much good feelings, benefits, cash, or whatever, you get from this minus any costs incurred). To actually make the decision of when to bid you have to know your utility for ALL POSSIBLE PAYOFFS. This isn't possible in real life. Even if you knew every man you would ever meet and how much utility each of them would give you (first problem) you would not know whether they would decide to pursue you which is a necessary element that is somewhat left out in this game theory application. I think ulimately (and I have) you can signal you are interested in a guy but he has to make a move to pursue you or not and this is a decision node that belongs to the other player and his decision will depend on what he views as his payoffs (and what he thinks your payoffs will be). This is probably to complicated and not well explained, but ultimately my problem with this is that romantic relationships aren't like a dictator game where the woman makes all the decisions. A man has to make a decision to pursue her in the first place or not. This game leaves out a very important decision node.
I often try to apply game theory to possible relationships and life. Last time I analyzed it this way I decided that if you were that rational about the decision you would never make a choice to take a risk on a relationship. And my friend (an accountant) told me this: guys are confusing bc they aren’t balance sheets, their debits will never equal their credits, they will never match any model or graph, and they always defy the decision tree results. And it's ultimately true about all humans and their interactions. It's too complicated to model in this best format. And certainly too complicated for such a simple, elegant model as was presented in this paper (linked from the article). As I remember from an episode of my favorite show, Numb3rs, "human behavior is rarely, if ever, elegant." There are so many other things interacting on this that the model can't show everything.
26. Christina said the following at 1:50 PM on Apr 11:
Mindlab,
Though I try really hard not to (and usually find myself actually on a date with the guy anyway), I attempt to NOT go out on a date with a guy I don't find initially "attractive". However, that isn't limited to physical attraction. If there's something about the guy that I find attractive (faith, intelligence, social skills, maybe even looks), even though I don't find myself completely attracted to him, I will usually say yes. Maybe not to a 2nd date, but definitly a first date.
27. a sassy sister said the following at 1:56 PM on Apr 11:
Mrs. B. wrote:
"We're far too engrossed in the societal norms of dating and are far to proud to know when something wonderful is right in front of us. Pray about it, get an answer, and do what God says to do."
Unfortunately these societal norms not only include being too picky, they also include the pressure to be married by a certain age and the pressure to obtain social acceptance. What's even worse is that the church is perpetuating these norms as well. People need to be able to discern tradition from truth.
It is one thing to be to have standards so high they could give someone nosebleed. It is quite another to be so afraid of being alone that you choose compromising on Biblical non-negotiables just so I can be married.
28. Rachel said the following at 1:57 PM on Apr 11:
Mindlab (#3),
I don't feel comfortable answering for all the Christian women out there, but for me, the answer to your question is no. The reason is because I'm not inclined to say yes to a date with *any* guy, good-looking or not, if I just met him. I would rather date someone I've gotten to know as friends for a few months first.
And, like you said, attraction grows the more you know someone. So even if I wouldn't have initially thought a guy was the most handsome in the room, if I've gotten to know him and like his personality, then 99% of the time I will also grow to think he's attractive.
Is the same true for men? Call me cynical, but I have a hunch that guys don't bother pursuing girls they don't find initially attractive, despite the fact that a lot of girls will allow themselves to be pursued by guys they don't find intitally attractive.
29. Jules said the following at 2:08 PM on Apr 11:
To respond to Mindlab:
If I were a man I'd never be married because the mere thought of asking someone out scares the living daylights out of me.
So whenever a guy asks me out I say "yes"-it takes nerve to do that and for me, any guy deserves a first date, and most deserve a second.
30. Jim H said the following at 2:57 PM on Apr 11:
As someone who is about to turn 43 and has never been married, I urge people to not fall into the trap like I did of "waiting for someone better."
Others on this thread have related similar experiences and I confess that I also passed on some wonderful Christian women with that mindset of waiting for someone better. At some point in my mid 30's, the prospects diminished greatly (and were of lower quality than the ones I passed on at a younger age) and now at age 43, I have pretty much given up on my dream of one-day starting my own family.
Yes looking back, I was a total self-centered jerk and I deserve my present situation. I just hope that God will allow me to serve in some capacity as I get older to make amends for my idiotic youth.
The point of my post is that I STRONGLY urge the younger people to learn from my bad example and don't fall into the self-centered thinking I did. You must exercise the utmost discernment in choosing a mate, but this discernment should be aimed at important things, not superficial things. Is he/she a fully committed follower of Christ? Do you see spiritual fruit in their life? What is their passion - is it to follow Christ and glorify Him? While I do think phyiscal attraction is important, don't rule a person out if they only satisfy 7 out of 10 or your physical requirements (for example). As long as there is a basic level of physical attraction, then focus on spiritual maturity when deciding on whether or not to pursue a person. And you should have some sense of urgency in finding a mate, especially as you get into your early-mid 30's, because time sneaks up on your before you know it!
31. BDB said the following at 3:18 PM on Apr 11:
Tami (#4) wrote:
>>Any "chemistry" I've experienced when I first met a guy has blown up in my face, so to speak. ;) <<
Ha! As in, "She looks so good, she's like sodium in a bottle of Clorox!"
Nicole (#25) wrote:
>>On another note, as an economics PhD student <<
Oh, be still my heart...any girl who can do econometrics...
Anyway, on to this:
>>And my friend (an accountant) told me this: guys are confusing bc they aren’t balance sheets<<
Oh, LOL, that is so funny. As they say in political science, there are problems that are insoluable...
>>he's 30 and has mountains of debt still from school not a sign of good financial management, <<
So, is paying off student loans a legitimate reason to delay marriage? If someone incurred the debt, then paid it off, and had the good credit rating to prove it, would that ease your concerns about age?
For some reason I feel like including here a line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast soundtrack:
Bittersweet and strange
Finding you can change
Learning you were wrong
I've always felt that was an interesting line to put in a song about courtship (Tale as Old as Time).
32. CG said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 11:
Very interesting. I agree to an extent...it certainly is possible to be too picky, but I know I haven't been.
1st guy to ask me out...I was 14, he was 18 and a middle school dropout. A few years later he found me and told me that I was smart to reject his offer. :P
Another guy was around 16 when I was 17...I wasn't attracted to him at all, and not ready to get married, either. :D
I've had at least 2 random guys ask me out in coffeeshops and libraries...totally freaked me out.
(Guys, if you see a girl you find attractive, please at least strike up a conversation first before asking her out!)
And the most recent offer I had was from a guy visiting town who asked if I wanted to go back to his hotel room with him. Ummm...nope!
That encompasses all the guys who have actually expressed an interest in me over my whole life. Not exactly a stellar list of options so far. But thanks to things like Candice's new book (which is great, btw!) I will be putting myself in environments where I'll be more likely to meet a good future husband!
33. Rachael said the following at 4:10 PM on Apr 11:
Wow, Mindlab (3), you appear to be the "Mr.(?) Boundless" of the day (based on your many responses)!
-->Not a professional dater, but here are some thoughts: Like you, attraction can grow with me. Similar to Lana (8), I'm not automatically drawn to people who might be considered to be extremely good looking guy according to media standards (though I wouldn't call the good looks in and of themselves a 'turnoff'.). I am drawn to good looks in combination with a solid character, personality, and faith. Appearance in and of itself is absolutely nothing to me.
Now, about dating. If someone were to ask me on a date (and it was clear it was a date and not just doing something for a specific purpose), and I didn't find them attractive, honestly, I'm not sure how I'd respond.
Can't seem to find it on a quick scroll up, but I think someone mentioned something about 'potentials' and 'non-potentials'. If at the time of being asked, assuming I knew the person and had a sense of the character/faith and felt that there was potential in that regard, honestly, if the looks were more in the 'non-potential' category, I might not say 'yes' for a date (again, if it was clear that it was a 'date' that he was after). That said, I believe ultimately things are up to God so if God wanted me with that person He could change my heart. If I wasn't initially attracted, but the guy looked 'okay' (and w/ potential to be attracted in the future), and if all the character/faith stuff was good, I might say 'yes' (for a date). But this is all hypothetical guesswork.
I do not comprehend how the male mind operates, and my guess is that it differs from man to man, but, in answer to your question "do Christian women really allow initial attraction to drive decisions about who they will allow to pursue them?", I wonder if men generally have more issues with initial attraction than women.
As for dating in general, honestly I'd must prefer to have a best friend and that we each fall in love with each other around the same time, or exactly at the same time. I'd much prefer that, but as we've seen on Boundless, the 'friend zone' can be tough. I'd rather not 'date' as a way of getting to know the person, though I realize I might have to, and I'm willing to do that if a potential guy should ask. So likely for me the best friend situation won't work. Another good (in my mind) situation would be to date after the guy and I have already observed each other in various settings and have a sense of each other's faith and character. I'd much prefer to do the observing/data-collecting first before fast-forwarding to the dating level. I just don't know if straight-up dating w/out data-collecting will work well for me, but I suppose it's possible as data-collecting can happen through conversation and over time. Hmmm. Will cross that bridge should I ever come to it.
On a final note, amen to the middle section of Tami (4)'s post.
34. Rachael said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 11:
PS - Oh, hey other Rachel - :)
I think you essentially have the same ideas as me in my more verbose comment. Probably should've just let you answer for the both of us Oh well :) (though w/ me the 99% would probably be a lot lower and w/me it might be possible that I'd say 'yes' for a date w/ someone even if I didn't know him too well though I'd much rather get to know him like you oh and I think men can change to become attracted to people, though I wonder if that happens less often than it happens w/ women)
35. Nicole said the following at 4:48 PM on Apr 11:
BDB--
lol about the econometrics... definitely working on a paper for it now.
But about the guy with debt. I think honestly what bothers me most is that a lot of it isn't from college it's from credit cards he used during college so he wouldn't have to work. Maybe I just don't understand some people's college experiences because I didn't find it extremely hard to work in undergrad. Honestly, being 30 wouldn't bother me at all if they had waited until then because they wanted to pay off their debt though. I don't ask for a credit rating or anything. I was just raised in a family where debt was a bad thing and still feel like it is. To an extent borrowing money for school is an investment, but you have to look at the return on that investment. To go back to my other point from earlier (about the guy having to make a decision), I don't think this guy was ever interested in me anyways, I'm usually just a good friend for guys.
By the way, Beauty and the Beast is the best Disney movie :-)
and to Mindlab -- I would be very unlikely to accept a date with a guy I didn't know well. I like to be good friends first. BUT saying there have been many guys I haven't found attractive at first, but after getting to them I did find them attractive. It would certainly not be a reason for me to not get to know them.
36. Some Guy said the following at 5:11 PM on Apr 11:
From a male perspective, yes, I agree that attraction can be cultivated if it is not instantaneous. However, I would rather be flat-out refused than strung along for five dates and told "You know, I gave it time to grow but I'm just not feeling it." Although we may be hurt at the time, deep down we will be more grateful you were honest at the onset.
Which leads to a question I have for the women readers:
If a guy asked you out and you turned him down, but for some reason down the road (you got to know him better, etc.) he started to really appeal to you, what would you do? Would any of you ever go up and ask for a second chance, or would you just chalk it up to a mistake and move on? Just curious: I mean, if you asked for a second chance and he said yes, would that appeal to you as a symbol of a forgiving spirit? Or would you never consider asking a guy for a "do-over?"
37. BDB said the following at 5:12 PM on Apr 11:
Rachael (#33) wrote:
>>I'd much prefer to do the observing/data-collecting first before fast-forwarding to the dating level. I just don't know if straight-up dating w/out data-collecting will work well for me, but I suppose it's possible as data-collecting can happen through conversation and over time. Hmmm. Will cross that bridge should I ever come to it.<<
Wow. This is why analyticals end up marrying each other. Well, let me think about that. Maybe we need a whole new method of approaching marriage for analyticals - dating works for the "decisive" ones, courting works for the "quiet" ones so that the guy can date her dad instead, the bubbly/emotional people can't remember what the rules were anyway, too busy with the balloons and glitter...
38. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Apr 11:
Nicole (#35) wrote:
>>lol about the econometrics... definitely working on a paper for it now.<<
Is it a paper with words, or more of a collection of charts and graphs? (If you were in marketing, you could add pretty colors.)
>>I think honestly what bothers me most is that a lot of it isn't from college it's from credit cards he used during college so he wouldn't have to work. <<
Ah-that is different than tuition. Of course, the same thing can happen with student loans. Even if a school costs $1000/unit, a 72-unit program should result in $72,000 in debt...not $120,000. There is definitely a heart issue when it comes to credit card debt.
And a special note to anyone who sees boring guys around them...keep in mind that being financially responsible usually looks pretty boring compared to the people maxing out their credit cards. Paying off debt usually requires being even more boring - living below one's means. But that kind of discipline is a very, very good foundation for future life. Moral of the story: accept dates from boring guys; you might found out they've been being responsible and preparing to support a family. The discipline must come before they can actually stick to the decision.
>>By the way, Beauty and the Beast is the best Disney movie :-)<<
Perhaps you're thinking of The Lion King ;-)
39. Patrick said the following at 5:56 PM on Apr 11:
I'd be interested in hearing any responses to Some Guy's question (#36).
Also, Jim H., if you're still around, I wonder if you'd mind emailing me at pchan10 at sbcglobal.net? I'd like to ask you a couple of questions if that's okay? Cool, thanks.
40. Nicole said the following at 6:07 PM on Apr 11:
To BDB and Rachel #33
I totally think I need a different approach to dating. I do like to "collect the data" before dating someone. It's like when you do experimental research. It's a bad technique (at least in economics) to tell the subject what the expected behavior is before the experiment. Once you are dating a guy, in general, they know the expected behavior and will try to model it. It's best that way. You get to know the real person, not them trying to model themselves to your expectations (and even people with good intentions do this as seen in experiments, because they want to do it the right way or in the case be that "right person").
41. Nicole said the following at 6:11 PM on Apr 11:
I like boring guys, they do make the best foundation for the future.
This paper is for a class in econometrics and is actually more of a research proposal so it's mostly going to be words. And I don't think pretty colors would be appreciated... sadly. I know some marketing PhD students at school, I'll have to ask if they get to include pretty colors. :-)
Totally thinking of Beauty and the Beast... I love the soundtrack especially.
42. Tall Girl said the following at 6:52 PM on Apr 11:
Although I agree with this theory, in my experience it has worked the other way: guys pass over me because I'm too tall (6 feet). I guess I just look too strong and unfeminine... So, yeah, girls hold out for a better guy but guys do the same thing!
43. Amir Larijani said the following at 7:03 PM on Apr 11:
Single Certain Girl says:
Well, at least you tried. LOL
44. single certain girl said the following at 8:18 PM on Apr 11:
hey 'some guy'
i've been thinking about your question lately. i'm 29 and there's a guy i've been friends wtih for a while who's in his early forties. i met him a few years ago and immediately brushed him off because he's 12-13 years older and that weirds me out. but now i wonder if i should give him another chance, and if i did what would that look like? and am i doing that just because he's the only guy around who i can even consider being attracted to?
i don't know.
but good question!
45. Rachael said the following at 9:19 PM on Apr 11:
Hey Nicole,
Wow, you're totally academically-minded. :) Not sure I completely follow, but I do think it would be neat to have the data (collected by observation and hearsay) before the experiment. And even if I couldn't collect the data firsthand, I'd actually prefer to be somewhat aware of the straight-up facts beforehand, even if it's a bad experimental technique in science. My guess is that there is some show in the modeling if the two are dating no matter how the data was collected, though. What would be neat if you could data collect as you observe the person in adverse situations. How does the subject act under those variables (right term?)?
I'm not really into formulas, though, and although I have ideal processes (data-collecting through observation or hearsay first) in my mind, only God knows what He has in mind. And both married and singles can be used for His purposes, thankfully. :)
BDB (37), can't there be a courtship turned dateship with balloons and glitter and no dad-dating? :)
46. denise said the following at 9:53 PM on Apr 11:
this whole story struck me because i had dated a kind hearted guy who was significantly younger than I and had limited higher education (can't help my multiple degrees)... initially i had to encouraged myself to look beyond these differences and found he was truly selfless... although we did talk about our future goal of marriage our polar opposite views on money made it apparent that we would not be compatible in marriage... all that said, after years of no dates i was willing to try new options ... of course i'm still in square one : (
(btw, he was an inch taller than me and i'm short~!)
47. Christina (in green) said the following at 10:39 PM on Apr 11:
S/C
I don't think you should brush him off for being older...though it may take a lot of prayer to prepare you for that.
But don't force yourself to feel anything for this person...
I'm trying to be open minded to the idea of older guys myself =p
48. Stephen Kloosterman said the following at 10:43 PM on Apr 11:
I think there a lot in this post that rings true. And I think it's sad, both for these decent guys who get turned down for hardly any real reason, and for these pretty "girls" who can't up their minds about anything and expect men to keep flocking around like it's tenth grade again.
49. BDB said the following at 10:43 PM on Apr 11:
Nicole (#40) wrote:
>>Once you are dating a guy, in general, they know the expected behavior and will try to model it.<<
Oh - that was beautiful. The social scientist in me is all aflutter. And here I've been trying to explain it by saying you get to know the real person when you volunteer with them.
single certain girl (#44) wrote:
>>and if i did what would that look like? and am i doing that just because he's the only guy around who i can even consider being attracted to? <<
Well, has he been consistently kind to you? Have you prayed about it?
While uncommon, it's not unheard of. If the reasons he is single are acceptable to you, and you aren't attracted to anyone else, why not?
50. Christina (in green) said the following at 10:45 PM on Apr 11:
Some Guy,
That is a really difficult question.
I know a guy who liked a girl for a solid 10 years (he dated off and on during that 10 years). She was quite adament that she would NEVER date him.
However, last year he had the balls to ask her one more time. And she said yes...they're dating now =p And have been for 10 months now.
He didn't put himself on hold for her. He was interested in other girls, would work on relationships with other girls, but when those relationships were done, he would find himself liking her again. And he'd take some time, and he'd "test the waters" and ask. If she said no, he'd back off again...
Just the thing is, not to put all your eggs in one basket. She may or may not change her mind. But if you are available and you find you still like her and she is more receptive to you, ask. If its still no, respect that and move on again.
51. Katie P. said the following at 10:54 PM on Apr 11:
mindlab - good question!
For me, I don't have to be initially attracted to a guy to say yes, but I do have a few qualifications. The first definately does not apply to all, or even most, girls, so I won't go into too much detail - basically, since I feel God is calling me to serve overseas, there has to be at least some sort of preexisting interest on the guy's side in that area also. The second is a little different (and I would love to hear some feedback from some other girls to see if I am the only one who does this haha) - the guy cannot be too socially awkward. Maybe I am being too harsh, but it is very important to me that a guy is able to have a normal conversation with people - girl or guy, old or young, ect. The don't have to be 100% extroverted either, but where I am from, it seems like it is the norm for the Christian guys I know to stand in their own group at the side of the room and avoid talking to anyone they don't know, especially the girls. The only time they talk to a girl is to nervously approach one for a date, which is quickly but graciously denied. Then they complain about how girls are "too picky" and "won't give them a chance."
52. DEH said the following at 12:28 AM on Apr 12:
This post made me laugh because it reminded me of my sis-in-law. She was lamenting to me one day about how all the available guys she knew were "so immature," and all the good guys were already taken because they were so good!
53. Heather said the following at 12:33 AM on Apr 12:
Has anyone yet mentioned getting advice from someone older?
My daddy wasn't sure whether he should marry my mom, but his elder told him to go for it. My dad was told, "she's bright and perky, and you need bright and perky." Momma wasn't necessarily the most attractive young lady either.
So getting some perspective from someone such as a parent, pastor or elder can give you a little push and perhaps see beyond the invisible list in your head.
54. Missy said the following at 12:38 AM on Apr 12:
Wow, so much good discussion, so little time!!
Amir and others - never fear, some of us gals like shorter guys! I'm 5'3" and find that I'm actually a little more attracted to shorter guys...maybe it's because y'all are more at my eye-level! :)
mindlab - to respond to your initial question, I think I am now getting to a point that I'd consider going out with a guy that I'm not necessarily physically attracted to, as long as there is some other kind of attraction. For example - my roommate is on staff at the church I go to, and she has gotten to know a certain guy through some volunteer work he does on her team. She's told me about him and how she thinks I should go out with him. I know him on an acquaintance level, but not much more than that. Because he is a little quieter and shy, and conversation with him isn't as "comfortable" as I'd like it to be, I probably wouldn't have given him a chance at one point in my life (i.e. in my 20's! :-D ). I would have chalked it up to the "no chemistry" or "personality difference" thing, and moved on. But now that I'm a little wiser than I used to be (at least I'd like to think I am!!), I also see that he has a great servant's heart and sincerely desires to serve the Lord and is actively growing in his faith, and that makes me want to get to know him more, despite the shyness factor. In general, I'd like there to be some kind of attractiveness/personality/character combination that sparks my interest so that I'm not going to either extreme of 1) following the "lust of the eyes" and saying "yes" (or no!) based solely on physical characteristics, or 2) saying "yes" to someone just to be nice, or in the name of "giving someone a chance," even if I'm not at all interested.
Option #2 above actually leads me to a question: What is the difference between "giving someone a chance" and just saying "yes" to someone out of guilt/pity etc.? I realize that a big part of it is asking for and listening to God's guidance, but I wouldn't mind some examples some of you might have!
One last comment - to single certain girl - I'd say don't brush off your guy friend solely based on the age difference, if he's a sincere believer and is a man of good character that you really like being with. Yes, there are some "practical" considerations to think of when dealing with a significant age difference, but I've heard of many couples with such age differences that made it work. As long as *he* doesn't weird you out, then I'd say go for it! :)
55. Ethan K. said the following at 1:34 AM on Apr 12:
lol wow, I'll marry Nicole in a split second... heh
but seriously, even though I do think the whole date-the-guy-you're-not-initially-attracted-to argument has some very valid points, I have to play devil's advocate here and say there're also very practical reasons against it.
well first of all, there is an immediate problem with dishonesty. when you say yes to a date you ARE implying that you are interested in the other person. You can't exactly say to the other person, "look, I'm actually not attracted to you at all but I'm only saying yes just to give you a chance". so to put it harshly, going on a date with someone whom you find no attraction with might simply be considered defrauding a brother/sister. The times I've agreed to spend time with a girl whom I was not attracted to all felt utterly miserable because the whole time we're out it felt like I was only doing this to be nice, and I just felt like a total hyprocrite. and I knew if she knew how I was feeling she would feel devastated and it was just no good for either of us.
that's my opinion, maybe it isn't a right attitude and I need to change, but at this point my automatic response to a girl approaching me is to gently decline (even if I AM attracted to her) unless I really feel like I'd be seriously interested in her. this is just so I can live with myself and not having to feel guilty about being insincere. I know this may sound stupid to some people but at this point I am still not sure if it's right or wrong to stay with this attitude.
56. Ethan K said the following at 2:20 AM on Apr 12:
lol wow, I'll marry Nicole in a split second... heh
but seriously, even though I do think the whole date-the-guy-you're-not-initially-attracted-to argument has some very valid points, I have to play devil's advocate here and say there're also very practical reasons against it.
well first of all, there is an immediate problem with dishonesty. when you say yes to a date you ARE implying that you are interested in the other person. You can't exactly say to the other person, "look, I'm actually not attracted to you at all but I'm only saying yes just to give you a chance". so to put it harshly, going on a date with someone whom you find no attraction with might simply be considered defrauding a brother/sister. The times I've agreed to spend time with a girl whom I was not attracted to all felt utterly miserable because the whole time we're out it felt like I was only doing this to be nice, and I just felt like a total hyprocrite. and I knew if she knew how I was feeling she would feel devastated and it was just no good for either of us.
that's my opinion, maybe it isn't a right attitude and I need to change, but at this point my automatic response to a girl approaching me is to gently decline (even if I AM attracted to her) unless I really feel like I'd be seriously interested in her. this is just so I can live with myself and not having to feel guilty about being insincere. I know this may sound stupid to some people but at this point I am still not sure if it's right or wrong to stay with this attitude.
57. Justice said the following at 2:36 AM on Apr 12:
Not that anyone is going to read this, but I held out a LOT, I I got a woman that is so far greater. I look today at some of the women that God showed me were not the one, some I 'passed on,' and I am completely glad I'm with my fiance
58. Sarah22 said the following at 6:01 AM on Apr 12:
BDB:
I agree about boring guys...I have a couple of them for brothers! Actually I don't find them boring at all, but I do have twin brothers who are a couple years older then me (they're 24) and they are very financially wise, I'm not sure how much (they won't tell me, lol) but they have a lot of money saved up, they're not in debt at all, their college education was paid as they went and they're in a very good position to marry at this point...I could only dream to find a husband who's been as wise financially as they are...I've had a couple friends joke about them being "a little boring"! However it's been a good example for me as to what I should be looking for in a guy, of course it's not all about money, they're also kind, they serve in church, respectful to my parents and they're great big bros, etc. etc. - - I say if that is what's boring then sign me up :) (uh, not with my brothers, but with a guy with the same kind of atributes...haha)
59. Esther said the following at 7:46 AM on Apr 12:
I wonder...if fathers still chose husbands for their daughters, and the only way for men to win a wife was to impress her dad, how different would today's single men act? Which men would be left over?
As for attractiveness, personally I have been on dates with men across the range, from short and dark, to tall and skinny, to tall and fair and built, and found things attractive in all of the them. Honestly, I find I am generally willing to overlook most physical flaws except for an obvious lack of hygiene or fitness. If a guy doesn't care about his body enough to get regular exercise and eat right, it really turns me off. He doesn't have to be a muscle-man, just strong and healthy enough to defend his family and do odd jobs around the house!
I find that my pickiness relates much less to the physical attractiveness or social skills of the guys I meet. I'm honestly looking for the skills and motivation that will facilitate healthy marriage and family life. For example: a job, or at least a good attitude towards work and motivation to support himself and a family, a good relationship with his own family, and willingness to relate to my family, able to think and communicate on deeper levels, responsible attitude towards finances, ability to take initiative and lead in any number of situations (not just asking me out), healthy eating and activity habits, and so on. I didn't list being a follower of Christ, because that goes without saying (or it should)! Intelligence and education also get factored in, though I find that I'm not as picky on that as I once was.
The situation I find myself dealing with as I get older, is that many of the 'available' men are divorced, and while they may have all of the above, there is that huge dilemma, of whether it is really right or wise to get into that arena at all, or to relegate divorced people to singleness (arguably the biblical answer) or to other divorced people. (I don't know that Boundless has addressed this at all in dating discussions-how about it?)
60. charlotte said the following at 9:09 AM on Apr 12:
I always find it interesting when the women around me complain about the lack of suitable single men - I seem to be in the highly unusual position of having a significant number of Godly, responsible, mature, fun-loving male friends. Finding a guy like this that actually wants to pursue me...now that's a different matter entirely :)
61. Rachael said the following at 10:11 AM on Apr 12:
BDB (49), Nicole, etc...:
in #49, BDB wrote: "And here I've been trying to explain it by saying you get to know the real person when you volunteer with them."
-->And as I've been saying I'm also more interested in the data-collecting, and you may have been able to see that I also enjoy serving with people. I would love to have a husband on the same track theologically and servanthoodally.
I want to add something, though: I think there can be flaws with this method too. All 'methods' are flawed. We're all flaws saved by grace (if we've accepted that faith).
Confession time. I'm just thinking, if someone were to observe me in serving type of settings, it's possible that he might sometimes/often like what he sees. If he were to observe me in social situations where I'm comfortable, he might sometimes like what he sees. When he sees me in social situations where I'm not comfortable, he might not like what he sees.
He should see how I spend my free time when I'm alone (as obvious from my frequent Boundless comments, I spend way too much time on the internet; I am not carrying my cross in this area.); this is an area I need to tackle. It is a lack of discipline and keeps me from from being productive in other areas. So while in public, it may *appear* that I'm spiritual in involvement in various Christian communities and service, I am serious that the internet is really a big distraction in my life and it is not Godly, even if there are some good Christian aspects about it and I love reading good blog posts, blogging, Boundless, etc.
So the observing stuff should be on all levels - public and private; for the private aspects, though, you'd have to rely on the honesty of the potential person and also maybe others' thoughts....tough.
62. Jen said the following at 11:34 AM on Apr 12:
I think this is a great discussion. I appreciate that Boundless is encouraging people to look at the heart and find that as the foundational point of attraction. I think it is helpful to remember we are not all going to instantly be drawn to even a great guy or girl if we don't initially find them physically attractive.
I used to say that physical attraction didn't matter, but after a personal experience where I gave a guy a chance that I wasn't attracted to, I've come to feel that physical attraction- and even chemistry- does have some importance. When I gave this particular friend a chance, I couldn't help but think that I would have looked over one day after marrying him and think, "What did I do?" I didn’t think this guy was ugly, and we were the best of friends. I just sincerely didn’t find him attractive in a romantic way.
I also think that by marrying someone that is either considerably more or considerably less attractive than you are, it sets one up for a struggle in the relationship. I personally don’t want to wake up one day and be striving to be attractive enough for an overly attractive husband or find myself physically repulsed by marrying someone far less attractive than me. In the same way, I don’t want to marry someone far less or far more intelligent than me or someone that has far less or far more energy than I do. I think it is important to be reasonably well matched in the majority of areas.
I would love to be married, but I have set a high standard (the same standard I set for myself), and I’m willing to remain single if the alternative is settling. Singleness has its struggles, but a difficult marriage because of a poor match is far worse.
63. Amir Larijani said the following at 11:51 AM on Apr 12:
Tall Girl says:
Sadly, with women, height can work both ways against the guys.
As a shorter guy, I'm not particular about a gal's height.
On the other hand, that is not true for a lot of guys I know. Ergo, I empathize with you and single certain girl.
Still, what Gimein is observing is similar to what A.J. Kiesling notes in her book Where Have All the Good Men Gone? Overwhelmingly, the women are less favorable toward dating men who are shorter than they are.
This whole dynamic shows that women are also quite visual even though one often associates that quality with the men.
I've seen women excoriate men for being overly petty with respect to looks--and, sadly, some of those accusations are true.
On the other hand, Gimein and Kiesling are telling us that this is also true with respect to the women and their expectations of men.
I'd say there is no small number of ladies--and gentlemen--in the church who need to grow up and get reasonable.
64. Tgify2001 said the following at 12:23 PM on Apr 12:
"Gimein first points out that the woman controls the central decision when it comes to marriage. They are the ones who have to power to say "yes" or "no" to a proposal (or at a micro level, a date). Gimein then explains the paradox (more eligible women than men) in terms of an auction."
One HUGE FLAW in the theory. Gimein starts at the point where a man has asked a woman to marry him and makes the erroneous assumption that women control the process.
However he is neglecting the women that never get asked out and never get proposed to. MEN CONTROL WHICH WOMEN GET ASKED OUT AND WHICH ONES ARE "WORTHY" A MARRIAGE PROPOSAL. I am so sick and tired of the assumption that women control the dating process and they alone are at fault for their singleness. There are some women who are not getting asked out at all. They are not irrelevant to the dating process!!!!! Men are also equally at fault for rejecting potentially good women because of race/weight/looks etc.
65. Laurie said the following at 12:47 PM on Apr 12:
Like a lot of the girls who have already replied to the question, I too am more attracted to guys when I have been able to spend time around them and if I see they have hearts to follow Christ, and have good character and a good sense of humor, it really doesn't matter as much what they look like! In fact, when I first met my now-boyfriend I didn't think he was all that great looking. Upon spending more time around him and observing how he acted around people and how he talked and carried himself, I became very attracted to him. Also, he is shorter than the average guy (barely taller than me) and honestly, I really don't care any more!
I have met so many typically great-looking guys that have horrible character flaws. Most really great-looking guys tend to repulse me because they are arrogant and jerks. I know this isn't the case across the board, but I've seen it a LOT. The more average-looking guys are a lot more humble and fun to be around!
Basically, it comes down to the guy being a strong Christian, with a heart for the Lord, and good character qualities of leadership and kindness and such, that make a guy great and attractive.
66. BDB said the following at 2:54 PM on Apr 12:
Rachael (#61) wrote:
>>I am serious that the internet is really a big distraction in my life and it is not Godly,<<
Um...you have one of the most theological blogs I've ever seen. Maybe you should marry a pastor who likes discussing theology...
I suppose it also depends on where you are taking the time from. When the American Idol blog post was put up, I realized that I've stopped watching TV...except for Fox News of course. And I programmed my DVR to record The Daily Show so I don't need to stay up so late.
>>can't there be a courtship turned dateship with balloons and glitter and no dad-dating? :)<<
Well, if you volunteer in children's ministry, you can get both balloons AND glitter in the craft. No kittens though - insurance reasons. Maybe if they're a therapy kitten that's had its shots.
When I think of a good volunteer situation, picture working in children's ministry every week for months. Someone who shows up every Sunday morning in a cheerful mood is likely not drinking until they pass out on Saturday night.
>>What would be neat if you could data collect as you observe the person in adverse situations. <<
And unexpected things happen while volunteering that reveal character. For example, there are shortages of materials for the craft, what do they do?
A) Criticize leadership for being disorganized
B) Bring an alternate craft to keep the kids occupied
C) Take the initiative to coordinate with other teachers on the fly
D) Keep coming to my classroom to ask if I have extras
Oh, an aside about height. I did spend time with someone who was three inches taller than me. One day we did something - I think it was lunch - on a work day, and I realized she was wearing heels at work but not around me...
Katie P (#51) wrote:
>>The only time they talk to a girl is to nervously approach one for a date, which is quickly but graciously denied. <<
This is the fatal flaw of the turbo-intentionality movement. If someone's only interaction with the opposite sex is rejection, why would they keep trying? If you are worried about psuedo-relationships, fine. Go volunteer somewhere that you can get to know people and relax around them.
Heather (#52) wrote:
>>So getting some perspective from someone such as a parent, pastor or elder can give you a little push and perhaps see beyond the invisible list in your head.<<
True. This can also create conflict, such as when the elder sees a good match, but the girl's peers disagree.
Missy (#54) wrote:
>>What is the difference between "giving someone a chance" and just saying "yes" to someone out of guilt/pity etc.? <<
Pity is when he's complaining that he can never get a date, no one likes him, etc. Giving him a chance is when your feelings are "neutral" instead of "sparks" and you're willing to give him some of your time to see what he does with it.
For example, someone with an analytical personality will relax as he gets to know someone - he might even be quite comfortable with people he knows and freeze up with women he doesn't know but he's interested in. It can be very hard to know someone's character from their looks.
For example, I know a couple of women who are opposites. They have comparable looks and fashion sense - much better than me. But one really isn't a Christian: she drinks every day and her overseas stories are a litany of alcohol consumption. She is unkind to people. The other only goes overseas on missions trips and seems to spend all her social time with her family - not at the bar. She is a very kind person who is seeking God's will for her life and/or career. But if they were standing next to each other, you wouldn't know which one was which. Even if you could get through the flock of guys hitting on them.
67. Nicole said the following at 3:46 PM on Apr 12:
I'm glad some of you guys out there don't find me too nerdy or intimidating to date. That's encouraging. I've met two guys in the last couple of weeks who after finding out I was getting my PhD were gone within about 30 seconds and had seemed somewhat interested before that. So thanks for the encouragement. :-)
68. Nicole said the following at 3:48 PM on Apr 12:
Rachel --
In econometric models we have a large number of variables and usually in observing a guy I would prefer to have the same thing. These variables would be different situations such as adverse conditions. I usually like to spend a lot of time with a guy and see him in bad and good conditions first, and see him extremely tired and mad first. It's usually a good thing.
69. Adam T. said the following at 4:40 PM on Apr 12:
So, you tend to settle those other issues first and then turn more intentionally to thinking over marriage, and by then it's easy to feel like you've missed the boat. Now, in my mid-20s, it seems like the godly men assume the ladies my age are focused on careers, when we're really ready to settle down!
Roffle!
I laughed when I read this because it's so true.
I'm 27 now. When I was younger (during my undergrad), none of the Christian women I knew were remotely interested in marriage. It really frustrated me, and I really took it to heart and eventually developed an idea that even Christian women, in this day and age, were just not that interested on marriage. I wondered if I'd ever find a Christian woman who actually did dream of being married.
People mature, though. It's only been in the last couple of years that women in my age range have become interested in marriage - but now it's like a bonanza.
My point, I guess, is to say that in my experience women do indeed become a lot more open and interested in marriage beginning around their mid-twenties.
As frustrating as it is during the college-age years, when Christian women are career and education-focused, they do tend to change and mature. So, if you're a guy who feels the way I used to feel, don't despair - things get better.
70. Marisa said the following at 9:05 PM on Apr 12:
Yay! I read this very Slate article the other day (found it fascinating) and was hoping someone from Boundless would address it! How cool is that. Thanks!!
mindlab— I usually say yes to at least a first date, unless I know of a “non-negotiable” in his life, e.g. he’s an unbeliever. The first few times I got asked out, I said yes because I had no idea how not to. I hadn’t thought it through and prepared an answer for potential scenarios.
BDB— I really like your sense of humor! And I appreciate your insights (I’ve enjoyed all your comments that I’ve seen as I’ve gotten hooked on Boundless Line over the last few months). Thanks.
Some Guy—not having been in the situation you describe (asking the guy for a second chance), I think I would do it. God’s grace is such that He matures people over time and is fully capable of growing the guy in the area for which the girl turned him down. If a guy demonstrates progress in that area, who am I to discard him due to who he was? I certainly wouldn’t want people to be oblivious to my ongoing growth and fixate on the level of maturity/character/etc I used to exhibit! How frustrating. (I can’t help but hear Luke Skywalker’s whine in Ep. 5, “But I’ve learned so much since then! I am ready!”)
Bottom line: the kind of situation you describe can be a testimony to the fact that God is at work in people, visible both in the girl’s humility in asking again and the guy’s graciousness in accepting it (and her).
Katie P (51)—oooooh, yes! The socially awkward question! Personally, I find that difficult to endure, and was wondering if that fell under the “give him a chance” category. I find it extremely uncomfortable to be stared at over lunch, and expected to create all the conversation! In half a lunch hour you can pretty much exhaust family, education, background, job, and maybe interests… then what, unless you discover something in common? On the first date where this happened (silent guy staring at me— did my gorgeousness stun him into a daze, or what?), I could have refused to start new topics, and forced him to say something, but I preferred to be sociable rather than cause discomfort for both of us (even though I would be doing it intentionally). Is that cruel? Hope not. That’s a hard one.
Rachael (61)—I like your coinage of “servanthoodally.” :)
Random question for y’all… have any girls out there had a guy give you his phone number? (or have any of you guys given your number to a girl?) I was a bit surprised when it happened to me. Sorry, bro, but it’s your job to ask for mine! I’m not calling you! Maybe I’m old-fashioned in expecting the guy to call. :)
71. Missy said the following at 11:05 PM on Apr 12:
Katie P (#51) - don't worry - you aren't the only one with the "awkwardness" concern. Right or wrong - I feel the same way! This might be a worldly way of looking at it, so I should probably seek more Biblical wisdom in this area, but to me, there is a lot to be said for someone who is confident and/or comfortable with themselves - not in an exaggerated, arrogant way, but in a way that makes everyone around them feel at ease. And you're right in that they don't have to be a "raging extrovert;" there are lots of quieter guys that I know who are still able to be at ease with themselves and others.
72. Lisa said the following at 11:05 PM on Apr 12:
It didn't take me long after I met my husband to figure out that he was "the one." Of all the guys I ever met when I was single (and there were many)---I can think of no one I'd rather be with today than the man I married.
He's Mainline and independent thinking, not a conservative Evangelical. We're coming up on our seventh wedding anniversary, and I have no regrets.
73. BDB said the following at 11:41 PM on Apr 12:
Sarah22 (#58) wrote:
>>they're also kind, they serve in church, respectful to my parents and they're great big bros, etc. etc. - - I say if that is what's boring then sign me up :)<<
Perhaps you and Charlotte (#60) should host a BBQ and invite your brothers and her friends...
74. Marie said the following at 1:17 AM on Apr 13:
#3 mindlab said:
"So, I have to wonder, do Christian women really allow initial attraction to drive decisions about who they will allow to pursue them?"
I would like to think I would not do that since it has been done to me and it is painful to have friends tell you how great a person you are when no guy finds you attactive. I am in my early 30s I have never dated, never been asked out, never been approached with even a modicrum of interest and can honestly say that I was not holding out for Mr Perfect-GQ and passing up great guys on the way.
I do know several Christian women who do that though, who pass up on what are in my opinion really fabulous solid Christian guys that I would go out with given half the chance. Their reasons vary from things like "lack of chemistry" (whatever that means), to he was boring, he did not like camping, he is not what they see themselves with etc. However men do not even see me because they allow attaction, initial or otherwise along with societal definitions of beauty to drive decisions about who they will pursue. I am very decisive in other areas of my life so I am going to say in this particular issue I lack options.
I tried to define myself based on the article and this is what I came up with "I am not a strong bidder, I do not seem to be a weak bidder either so I think I missed the memo/news paper announcement that the auction was even being held." Which is probably an entirely different study and article. :-)
75. Nate said the following at 6:15 AM on Apr 13:
The whole idea of treating dating like an auction is dehumanizing. I also take issue with following statement by the author: "The pool of appealing men shrinks as many are married off and taken out of the game, leaving a disproportionate number of men who are notably imperfect (perhaps they are short, socially awkward, underemployed)." Who says they are imperfect? Man looks at the outside, but God looks at the heart. I can't imagine the loving God who created these men describing them as imperfect, etc. And what about the parents of these men? Do you think that they view them as imperfect? Furthermore, articles like this do nothing except make single women who fear that they have been "passed by" even more anxious than before. I have seen all kinds of people make choices that ruined their lives b/c they were so desperate for a relationship that they stopped listening to God's counsel and listened to their own. Why are Christians viewing dating and marriage as a mechanistic process determined by factors like motivation and the "available pool?" Last time I checked the population of the world is over 6 billion, so the available pool is pretty large. What ever happened to praying and asking God for the spouse He has prepared for you? Have we taken the Lord out of the center of the dating process? If we have, how can we expect Him to be at the center of the resultant marriage? Dating and marriage is not a "game" as the author describes it. It is a lifelong partnership and ministry which should ultimately glorify God.
For Justice (57): I did read and appreciate your comment. I agree totally. If we listen to God's voice, we will never be sorry. :)
76. J said the following at 10:27 AM on Apr 13:
To Single Certain Girl and Tall Girl:
I hear you! Also 6'1" and 29. While I would much prefer someone who is at least as tall as I am, I have thought about what I would do if asked by someone a bit shorter. MAYBE I would go out if there were other important character qualities, but I also figure if God is going to make me this tall (and I love being tall) He can surely make a guy who is tall as well!
I also think that some guys may be scared off by the height.
I received a nice compliment from a man at work a little while ago, mind you someone old enough to be my father. He said, "I thought you would have been snatched up a long time ago."
For those who were talking about observing others in group settings, I much prefer that as well, although it can be difficult to FIND those group settings, particularly in a big city where people who go to the same church are more spread out and gathering together has to be more intentional. Also, if a church is a bit cliquey, it can be hard to find said group.
77. Nicole said the following at 5:42 PM on Apr 13:
Rachael #64,
I agree about that. I think for me I like when the friendship builds with the person and I come to be able to trust them with who they are. Also, getting to know their good friends is helpful. And everyone has imperfections, I just prefer to know most of them and know whether I can live with them. I really do think that comes best from a friendship rather than dating, but sometimes these friendships result in you liking the guy and he not liking you and that hurts. Cause the "friends zone" is hard and confusing very often. Yes, that may be personal experience speaking.
78. Kelly said the following at 7:31 PM on Apr 13:
Forgive me for being a voice of cynicism, however....
How many of those young marriages, with unequal footing, actually last a lifetime? Divorce is all too common for people who married young.
Whereas in my friends, those who have held out later, hoping for the elusive 'equal match' rather than "Oh no, the men are running out, this one will do!" seem to have a much richer, fulfilling marriage that so far has lasted the distance.
I'm in the process of watching 2 friends divorce. They're 23. It's so sad.
Those of us single into our twenties and beyond become so very good at assessing our own needs, being able to see what is complementary to that, knowing that God is above all, and having built great skills to deal with conflict. We won't have any doubts when we marry because we KNOW we held out for God's best for us rather than snaffling the first available man that came along.
Using a personal example: there are two men in my church that I "turned down" (i.e. did not enter a dating relationship with after spending some time together). They are both now happily married. Do I regret it? Not at all! I see their lives and I see my life and see the great divide. If I'd married them I would have MISSED SO MUCH of what God has taught me in life. How can I possibly be upset about that?
79. Rachael said the following at 8:37 PM on Apr 13:
Re: boring guys
Is anyone truly 'boring'? Yes, there are boring questions and boring answers, but if only we could figure out the right questions to lead into conversations where we discover what truly makes others tick. There are ways to see the mundane through an eternal lens; it would be neat to more frequently hear each other's spiritual thoughts more often in even casual 5 min. conversations.
Would be nifty if our typical questions could deviate a bit from the typical 'How's your job?' or 'How's school?', especially when we expect 'boring' replies. Think I should try 'Anything new?' more often...it's more open-ended. Also open to your ideas.
I wish a standard question in a passing 2-5 minute question was "What's on your heart?" or "What was the highlight of your day/week?"
Maybe if we all start trying these types of questions at once it'll get implemented into our cultures at a quicker speed... ;)
80. BDB said the following at 11:31 PM on Apr 13:
Katie P. (#51) wrote:
>>The only time they talk to a girl is to nervously approach one for a date, which is quickly but graciously denied. <<
You know, I've been thinking about this one a lot.
I've also been reminded of the whole
Motivation comments exercise last spring, where women complained that men never asked women out at church.
If these guys are always being turned down at church, they're being trained to never ask again.
While the ages are not mentioned, my guess is that they are younger, yes? Eventually they may reach a point where they discover non-Christian women asking them out. They will find this much easier than getting turned down in youth group. After a while, the rational decision will be to never ask anyone at church out.
Is this the best outcome? If it's really a youth group problem, you may want to explain the situation to a youth pastor, or his wife. They are in a position to take some remedial leadership and help these guys develop some skills or maybe do some icebreakers. Youth groups I was in always had lots and lots of interaction, so I can't relate to the hiding in the corner thing. On the other hand, if the women in the group really are being too picky, well, then a youth pastor might take the opportunity to point that out.
81. Leah said the following at 11:43 PM on Apr 13:
mindlab-
My fiance was the first Christian, and therefore eligible, guy to ask me out. So my previous turn-downs were non-Christian guys.
However, still being a girl, I can still answer your question! I would not accept a date from somebody I did not already know reasonably. They had to be my friend before they became my boyfriend. Therefore, I think some of the cultivated attraction you're asking about would have already started establishing itself.
So, yes- if someone I did not know well asked me out and I did not find him attractive, I would probably have turned him down. However, chances are I would have turned down an attractive guy if I did not know him very well (but I *would* be more likely to have accepted, although marginally).
Your cultivation theory is also proven in that there are very few guys I know well who I find unattractive.
charlotte- I'm in the same situation as you in that there are many mature, fun, Godly, responsible, single young men around me- but different in that I am engaged ;) However, I do sit there looking at them- and the multitude of mature, fun, Godly, responsible single young ladies around- and think "why are you all still single?!"
82. Jenny J. said the following at 1:48 AM on Apr 14:
The eligible-bachelor paradox is based on an assumption: That men WANT to get married young, thus are "snatched up" by the strongest bidders.
But why assume that? Isn't that faulty? If there are "more desirable" women out there who haven't settled down by a certain age, why wouldn't there be "more desirable" men who have also held out?
Another problem I have with the theory: The author says women control the decision. Well, they do only AFTER the man has made HIS decision. A woman can't date a guy who hasn't asked her out. Won't end up marrying a guy who hasn't proposed.
I'll agree that the basic premise -- that women who are less picky will marry younger -- may be true, though. And that does leave you with two groups of women and men: those who are passive and those who are ultra picky.
83. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:28 AM on Apr 14:
Jenny J says:
Sadly, there is some truth to that. I know a couple guys who are in a singles class at a church--and have been in that class their entire adult life--who are what Paul Coughlin refers to as "Christian Nice Guys" (CNGs). That has certainly played a role in their protracted singleness.
On the other hand, in fairness to them, it's not like there has been a deluge of women in their age brackets who have joined that class over the years.
As for the "ultra-picky" women, I can attest that I have seen that, too.
Bottom line: both sexes need to grow up. This article refers to women being overly picky, but--in all honesty--men have done the same.
Everyone has preferences. On the other hand, each of us must resolve--between ourselves and God--whether those preferences are reasonable.
Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good will only bring you--and the otherwise prospective mate--unnecessary misery.
84. Laura Grace said the following at 9:02 AM on Apr 14:
Kelly (#78): we often hear that people who "wait" to get married have happier marriages, but my big problem with that statistic is the fact that it doesn't account for attitudes toward marriage in general. Obviously, there are a lot of unbelievers, nominal Christians, and genuine believers involved in the polls that lead to those stats!
What I'm saying is that I too have friends who divorced at young ages (including the girl who's now my sister-in-law, who got divorced after she had 2 kids with her high school sweetheart), and almost invariably, their parents and friends said something along the lines of, "Well, you're still young, you can try again..." The whole idea of a "starter marriage" is so embedded in our culture that we have a tendency to let folks off the hook when they marry young and things don't "work out."
Almost all my cousins married in their late teens or early 20s, and they have far happier marriages than many of my other friends and relatives who married in their mid or late twenties. Why? I think the difference with my cousins is that, 1) they're strong believers who married other strong believers, 2) their parents raised them in a pro-marriage environment, and 3) they really did understand that marriage is for life, period.
In my experience, the age of marrying doesn't have nearly as much impact as simply the bride and groom's understanding of marriage as a covenant that is not to be broken, rather than a contract that is easy to get out of if everything doesn't turn up roses!
85. Sarah Elizabeth said the following at 9:34 AM on Apr 14:
I've found more issues with guys not being willing to look beyond a first reaction to a woman than the other way around. I know many single girlfriends who would look past some physical attraction flaws if he was godly and simply cared enough to pursue them. however, it seems guys often have a plethora of choices and therefore only seem to be williing to take 'perfect'. This could partly be because I am still in the atmosphere of a christian college where men outnumber women.
as far as boring/socially awkward goes...I kind of need someone who isn't...see I'm a quiet introvert. I have my moments of being outgoing, but overall i'm reserved and frankly, full of my awkward moments (which I have no problem admitting too). Can you imagine the potential disaster if I got together with someone who was also quiet and socially awkward?
For me it isn't about not being open to someone, its about knowing I need someone who is at least more outgoing than myself.
86. Sarah22 said the following at 9:37 AM on Apr 14:
Katie P & Missy:
I agree that it's very frustrating to hold a one sided conversation, I've been there before! However I would advise that if otherwise you thought the guy may be a great match to give him time (at least 4 or 5 outings/dates) before you move on...I think everyone is pretty comfortable with themselves, but it just takes some people a lot longer to become comfortable around someone else enough to share their true personality.
I don't consider myself shy, I can talk to people I don't know really easily, in fact a teen girl in my church is always telling me she admires how I can talk to anyone (chalk it up to a motor-mouth Mother and a career in healthcare, you have to find creative ways to say “hi how are you, I’m here to stick a needle in your arm!”). However, I think my personality is a lot different around those that I know a little better; I am much more humorous, goofy/weird and sarcastic. With some they can be that way right off the bat but not with me. It's not that I'm fake with people I don't know, but it's just a different side of me and the latter I feel is more "me", people often tell me after getting to know me that I am a lot different then what my first impression gives. I know we are all this way to a certain point but with some it's more extreme than with others.
You may be the exact blessing that a man needs in his life to help him open up. It may be after a while that you find him surprisingly sharing himself with you a lot more openly and showing you a side that you thought just wasn't there. So while being comfortable and open right out the gate is a good trait, don't be disappointed with a guy right away just because you think that he doesn't possess that trait. He may be sitting in silence thinking, “Wow this girl is blessed with making others comfortable, she is so good at carrying a conversation!” while simultaneously being completely nervous (and stunned at your beauty) and racked with worries about what to say back :)
Of course, if you find that it's just not there after a decent effort that it's definitely OK to move on. Anyway, I guess my long winded point is just that sometimes we think we’re not reading a book by its cover but we really still are.
87. xeres said the following at 9:50 AM on Apr 14:
Nate # 75 and Kelly # 78,
AMEN! I really agree with everything. But there are people whose standards basically tell me that they live a ivory tower existence. I'm not shooting you down. I agree that it's dehumanizing to see the dating and marriage as an auction, which what I have issues with this article. You have to understand, though, there are people who are so inflexible, and Pharisical in their standards basing on bad convictions on life that I wonder if they ever face their own personal ugliness or ever had hurt someone on accident or purpose. This seems to be the premise of Hadley's article.
However be careful when you say "the spouse {god} has prepared for you" and other stupid cliches and phrases Christians say. Personally, I think it is cruel and mean when someone says, "God has a plan but our relationship isn't one of them" or "We couldn't continue this relationship because God told me". Why do we bring God into our relational messes, which are our fault, to justify some of our stupidity and our decision to turn down or break up with someone.?
88. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:18 AM on Apr 14:
Laura Grace Says (emphasis mine):
Priceless!Absolutely priceless!
89. Rachael said the following at 10:28 AM on Apr 14:
BDB (66),
I don't have a TV. That American Idol blurb was from another blog, and I was amazed. I have since taken that one down. I sometimes post and unpost :). And I wouldn't mind marrying a pastor :), though probably not the main head pastor - too much pressure. Even though you might see theological tidbits I honestly am not good with theology, really want to learn more, but am lazy to do it myself. Someone did come up w/ the suggestion of a group meeting once in awhile to discuss seminary lectures online. Maybe I should try to initiate... In the past I did attempt to have 'deep conversation' parties at my apartment :). Even though more people expressed interest than actually came, I think there were only 1 or 2 of those or something last year...as for kittens. I realize having a cat might not be the most selfless thing to do as so many people have allergies to them. I suppose it would be better if I had a bigger house but I absolutely love my cat; she's my buddy.
Re: observing people in volunteering situations. I realize I just met someone yesterday and I noticed 2 specific subtle good things about him in just the hour we 'volunteered' (I barely did anything during that hour though). One of those subtleties might be because I was a woman (not particularly me, but because I was a woman). Not sure if the other thing was because I was a woman or a human :).
90. Lyd said the following at 10:51 AM on Apr 14:
Like many other women who commented here I wonder where this theory leaves those women who have never or rarely been asked out in the first place or those who have had offers from truly lousy guys.
Have I ever been asked out or proposed to? Well, sort of. I was 20 and the closest situation I have had for a marriage proposal was from a young man who asked my mother if he could marry me without ever having mentioned it to me first! I hardly knew him at all but what little I did know of him was a huge turn-off. He couldn't hold a steady job, didn't have much of an education, and he didn't seem to have any drive or discipline in his life to make much of himself. So was I being too picky? I don't think so. I also wasn't physically attracted to him right off but if I had seen that he had godly character and some good traits for a husband I would have given him a chance at getting to know him on a deeper level. The physical appeal could have grown on me if other factors were in place. He came from a Christian family but he seemed to not have the slightest idea of how to properly get to know and approach a woman in regards to marriage. Maybe this would fall under the "socially awkward" category. I don't know. He did some other weird things too like telling a group of women who knew both of us that we were practically engaged but the problem was he had never discussed marriage with me or asked me to marry him. All in all, my parents had to give him a straight talk that I was not interested and he was not to come around anymore.
Another personal scenario related to Mindlab's question, whom I assume is a guy. :)
While I was in college, one evening I was working at a hospital and an incredibly hot-looking guy was hanging around where I was. He talked with me a little bit very casually and a nurse was trying to set us up on a date together. After he left, this nurse told me he was interested in me and wanted to ask me out. The thing was he never personally asked me out himself. I couldn't believe it and was quite taken aback by it. I didn't know the guy from Adam and although he was incredibly great looking in my book I wouldn't go out with him because I didn't know anything about him and what he was like as a person. I was actually floored that he even wanted to go out with me because in the looks department I thought he seemed way out of my league. I don't think I am bad looking and I have some nice features but I am no super-model material. With this guy's face he probably could have been a model for Abercrombie or something although he was not that tall. I think maybe 5'8" or 5'9".
I also talked with another girl in the same department and she said a friend of hers had dated him once. She had a very bad experience with him in that interaction (he wanted physical intimacy right then). All this to say that I was so incredibly grateful I had went with my gut instinct (actually, I think it was the Holy Spirit prompting me) and never called him. (He had given me his work phone number which I thought was weird too). Was I tempted to give him a call and agree to the date? You better believe it! I had to tear up the piece of paper with the number and throw it in the garbage so I wouldn't be tempted to later on. To have someone like that want to go out with me made me have a much higher view of myself. But I knew it wouldn't be right and I would be taking way too big of a risk in not knowing his character or track record at all. Looking back, I almost think it was a ploy by the devil to get me to fall into sin. I can't describe to you how intense the battle was in my mind about wanting to accept that date but knowing I couldn't out of principle. I was feeling pretty lonely and kinda' sorry for myself at that time and my family was all out of town. It was the perfect set-up for me to fall. I am so grateful that greater is He who is in me than he that is in the world. There is no human way I could have overcome that temptation without the Holy Spirit indwelling me.
So Mindlab, hope this answers your question about girls agreeing to a date based on attractiveness. I would much rather be in a relationship with a guy whose looks I may even consider a little beneath mine initially, but if he had godly character and a neat personality and we had some common interests I would be thrilled about that.
I try not to be too picky in the looks category. I have made a list of 10 factors to use in evaluating a potential husband and believe it or not physical attractiveness was #4 after strong Christian faith, godly character, and a pleasing personality.
I think generally speaking that looks are more important to guys than girls but it varies across the board. It's just part of the characteristics in how men and women were created differently from each other.
Also, I don't completely discount physical appeal. As Doug Wilson puts it in one of his books "The man and woman have to want to go to bed together." If I was struggling with accepting a guy in this area while dating him I wouldn't marry him. But overall, I think our secular culture places way too much emphasis on physical appeal to the exclusion or downplaying of other, more important considerations for a spouse.
#58 Sarah22)
>>I do have twin brothers who are a couple years older then me (they're 24) and they are very financially wise, I'm not sure how much (they won't tell me, lol) but they have a lot of money saved up, they're not in debt at all, their college education was paid as they went and they're in a very good position to marry at this point...<<
Sarah 22- Your twin brothers sound like great guys, in my mind. They don't sound boring to me. They sound like they would make great husbands and fathers. You don't happen to live in the Midwest do you? :)
91. Jen said the following at 11:40 AM on Apr 14:
mindlab #3
So, I have to wonder, do Christian women really allow initial attraction to drive decisions about who they will allow to pursue them?
You've gotten quite a few answers already! I'll throw in my experience. I think that I agree with you, that attraction and familiarity do go hand in hand. However, there are times in my past when I've been attracted to a guy I didn't know at all and would characterize that as lust, not attraction. And usually, when I had the opportunity to get to know these men, I usually found I wasn't all that attracted to their character or personality.
But honestly, I think most people would find it difficult to pursue a relationship without at least some level of physical attraction. I'm marrying a man that I was friends with for a long time before we started dating and the attraction I have for him grew out of an appreciation for his Godly character and leadership. These things will last much longer (and have more of an impact on our relationship) than the color of his eyes or how muscular he is or whatever. So, yes, I think women will let attraction play a role, but hopefully a mature woman will understand that there is more to it than initial lust....
92. Jo said the following at 11:42 AM on Apr 14:
Haha Sarah22 - "you have to find creative ways to say “hi how are you, I’m here to stick a needle in your arm!"
I spent a week in hospital recently and I really hate needles, but the nicest people I met were the phlebotomists, they were fun and friendly and you could have a laugh with them. I suspect they all developed this great bedside manner to counteract their not-so-popular role. And it certainly does help to take your mind off the giant needle they're about to jab into your arm. :P
93. a sassy sister said the following at 12:06 PM on Apr 14:
to amir:
You are dead on in regards to preferences in determining between you and God if they are reasonable. However, what scares me is that there are too many men and women in churches who want to be married so badly they'll ignore HUGE red flags in character and faith under the guise of, "maybe my standards are too high." Don't get me wrong---if your standards are expecting perfection from the imperfect then you obviously are not being honest about your flaws and how they play into relationships. But while that may mean you have to be realistic about your expectations and check your standards to see if they're based on more lasting qualities than superficial ones, that doesn't mean you accept any Christ-professing, financially stable person with a pulse! While I understand that initial attraction is NOT everything, I do believe there has to be some attraction there---after all, I would hope that the person I will be having sex with for the rest of my life would be someone I am attracted to.
to xeres:
I understand your frustration about people ending relationships and using God as a copout or scapegoat. Jason Ilian's book undressed talks about this issue. I think we really need to act with wisdom in regards to what God tells us about relationships. If God tells us to end it, wouldn't he also tell us why?
94. BDB said the following at 1:50 PM on Apr 14:
Nicole (#67) wrote:
>>who after finding out I was getting my PhD were gone within about 30 seconds and had seemed somewhat interested before that.<<
Alas, it works both ways. A Master's degree is not a requirement on my "list," but those seem to be the people who aren't intimidated...
95. Katie P. said the following at 1:53 PM on Apr 14:
Sarah 22,
Thanks so much for your comments! The hard part (in my situation, at least), is that it is very difficult to know whether or not the guy would be a "great match" otherwise because there is no foundation of friendship whatsoever. Like I said, I totally understand that not everyone is comfortable going up to random strangers and striking up a conversation. It would be nice to see an effort to get to know me and my friends before an offer is made, though :)
96. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:41 PM on Apr 14:
Me thinks Sassy sister needs to now learn how to do end tags...
for emphasis or italics, it is /em or /i surrounded by < and >
However, Thank you so much for taking Candice's suggestion and learning the html stuff for emphasis =)
97. BDB said the following at 3:04 PM on Apr 14:
Rachael (#89) wrote:
>>I don't have a TV.<<
That's OK. I have 250 channels and there's still nothing on...
>> That American Idol blurb was from another blog, and I was amazed.<<
Oh - I was thinking of the Boundless one, something about Simon...well, I guess it's trendy. I did watch about half of it last year. In part because my staff kept talking about it and I needed to connect with them.
>>as for kittens. I realize having a cat might not be the most selfless thing to do as so many people have allergies to them.<<
Well, yes, a house with tile helps. Easier to keep clean.
>>I realize I just met someone yesterday and I noticed 2 specific subtle good things about him<<
Great! (Don't blog about him on your site yet, though...;-)
98. Rachael said the following at 3:13 PM on Apr 14:
Jo,
Wonderful that you had friendly phlebotomists! Sometimes it's those tiny interactions that make the world go round. How cool it would be to be a friendly bus driver or friendly barista or friendly cashier or a friendly phlebotomist (if you could stomach it...) I suppose we should each strive to be a friendly whatever-we-are; never know when that 1 minute interaction might calm someone or make their day...
Hope your spirit's doing well, Jo...
99. BDB said the following at 3:44 PM on Apr 14:
End italics.
100. Rachael said the following at 4:13 PM on Apr 14:
Re: social awkwardness
I think that that could be okay with me as I can feel uncomfortable in certain contexts. I think I wouldn't expect him to shine in all contexts as I don't. Like he may be more comfortable in situations where he's having fun doing ministry and service than in casual surface social conversations where he at times doesn't know what to say...wait, is that him or me I'm talking about, seeing as there IS no 'him'....
hmmmm :)