Divided by an Altar
by Ted Slater on 04/17/2008 at 12:51 PM
I submitted a post on a popular Christian Singles forum recently, and was disappointed that the first comment essentially dismissed me because I'm married.
Sadly, that reminds me of something 24-year-old Berkeley activist Jack Weinberg said in 1970: "Don't trust anybody over 30."
I'm trying to understand why there's this initial distrust of those who've moved to a different season of life.
Perhaps it's because too many married people have said insensitive things to their non-married friends. Maybe it's because they're years away from living single, and so what they say is naturally kind of irrelevant, right? Maybe non-married and married folks just tend not to hang out with each other, and therefore don't find much common ground with each other.
I've been married for five years now, after having been unmarried for 36. I confess that I don't rub shoulders with as many single adults as I used to, and have forgotten some of the pain of wanting to be married, but not being married. I've also got going against me that I never really felt excluded from my Christian community (my church) because of my marital status; I admit that I don't really grasp what that feels like for many singles, especially older singles.
But I do want to. I do want to continue being sensitive to those who haven't made the transition at the altar. I want to continue learning what singles find relevant, what issues you're struggling with, how you might legitimately take offense at an insensitive word casually spoken or written. While I have plenty to draw from, having personally experienced a broad spectrum of single life, I'm compelled to keep learning more.
Are you able to help me in this area? Do you have any ideas on how we can cut through whatever it is that tends to dull our ears to what each other is saying?
1. a sassy sister said the following at 1:14 PM on Apr 17:
I think what both singles and marrieds can do to help is to drop their assumptions about couples and singles to the way side, keeping the main thing the main thing. Let's start seeing people as our brothers and sisters in Christ and stop defining people by their marital status.
2. Tina said the following at 1:23 PM on Apr 17:
Hi Ted. I wrote on this after reading a wonderful John Piper quote. If is it ok to link in comments you can find my thoughts here:
http://tmbcello.blogspot.com/2007/10/singlehood-can-married-people-really.html
3. obewan said the following at 1:26 PM on Apr 17:
“I want to continue learning what singles find relevant, what issues you're struggling with, how you might legitimately take offense at an insensitive word casually spoken or written.”
The only issues I ever had at my old church were related to “age boundaries.” There was a whole lot of “doublespeak”. The chief elder would tell me in condescending tones on every single Sunday: “Any day now you will meet your wife.” At the same time, both he and his son (the assistant chief elder) would keep telling me: “If you are not married, by now, it is time to find your ‘ministry’ and move along." (ergo-leave the "young adult" group.)
This was very hurtful, because the church gave very little if any support to organized singles ministries. At age 25, I was told to move along and that the ministry “target” (for the group started and completely organized and run by young lay singles) was age 18-25.
Of course, the group “rebelled” and the age boundary for the group was pushed out to 30. At age 30, the same thing happened and the age boundary was pushed out to 35 and so on. Fortunately, I moved out of state at age 35 and found a church with 600 singles in the over age 30 class with no upper limit to the “age boundary”.
Far too many people in the church see organized singles ministries as some kind of youth group for big kids, where immature adults can live out a “protracted adolescence.” Many married people fail to see the legitimate ministry potential that lies in outreach to singles: the evangelism to lonely people, the brother sister relationships, the healing from divorce, the church and community service, and so on. The ministry results go way beyond simple organized socialization and spouse finding.
Most of the people at the 600-person group were divorced, and a very large number became Christians as a result of their participation in that church’s divorce recovery ministry.
4. Aria said the following at 1:52 PM on Apr 17:
I think a lot of churches only propagate this - they might not make singles feel inferior - but they still divide things up to where I (as a 26 year old single) am the youngest by 15 to 20 years in my sunday school class, while there ARE younger women in my church whom I really don't get to meet, because they're married and thus in the young marrieds class... (but hey - its better than all the churches with really NO singles department whom kind of just looked at me with a blank look on their face when they tried to figure out where to put me in sunday school when I visited)
But my point is we do stay so segregated that its not surprising to hear someone make a comment like that (though I wouldn't myself...) So I don't think there's anyway to completely rid any of that from communication until more of our churches stop segregating us all into our little (pretending to be) homogeneous groups...
5. BDB said the following at 2:00 PM on Apr 17:
>>and was disappointed that the first comment essentially dismissed me because I'm married.<<
Well, Ted, let me just tell you - after you posted your wedding pictures I thought, "Hmmm...maybe this Ted guy knows what he's doing..."
>>Do you have any ideas on how we can cut through whatever it is that tends to dull our ears to what each other is saying?<<
Well, I do believe that the blog thing, and the fairly liberal policy on posting comments, has been very helpful. By allowing so many views it gets a lot of the conflicts onto the table.
For example, we've identified at least a half-dozen ways of approaching marriage, from parental involvement to online dating. While I think there can still be an impasse when a man with a "dating" mindset runs into a woman with a "meet eachother in groups only" mindset, it's better to consider that someone has a different set of convictions, rather than just assuming that declining a certain activity is categorical disinterest. (For example, a woman that believes going to dinner alone with a man is inappropriate, but going with him and a group of other church people to Mexico on a missions weekend would be OK.)
FWIW, I find that married women are much more willing to accept outside leadership when it comes to solving operational problems, such as how to deal with their kid's school administration, etc. But I don't know which comes first: do certain single women refuse to accept leadership so they are perceived as too independent? I know a few women who refuse to listen to anyone in certain areas of their life. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone absolutely refuses to listen, there is no way I'm letting her have access to any of my assets.
I'll give a concrete example.
I have a friend with a rule for stock investing: if it doubles in price, sell half. That way you get your money back, you're guaranteed to "sell high," and you can then diversify into less expensive investments.
With the run up in oil prices, his Exxon stock was doing really well. He told me how much he made - he could retire earlier!
A couple of days later - shock - he explained that while he was in the hospital for emergency valve-replacement surgery, his wife had sold it. He didn't get the run-up. He was trying to console himself: she wasn't sure he would make it, so she wanted to move to safer investments, he could understand but was disappointed...cost him more than $100,000.
Actually, she sold half. She had followed his rule. She had listened to him, and when he wasn't able to make the decision, she made the decision to follow his rule. So, where at one time the situation made him think he couldn't trust her investing acumen, in the final analysis, it confirmed that he COULD trust her to listen to him.
6. Lauren said the following at 2:11 PM on Apr 17:
Two of my closest friends are married (to each other). I met them both after they had been married for a year. Our relationship works so well, in part, because I'm not their "single" friend. While they're excited about the prospect of a relationship for me, it's not the focus of our time together. Our relationship is about growing in the knowledge of God - sometimes that can involve the married/single aspect, but mostly it's about fellowship and enjoying each other.
I don't know if that's at all helpful...
7. Jim H said the following at 2:15 PM on Apr 17:
I don't know the context of the post you mentioned, but I will say this. There are some bitter people who are looking for a reason to be offended. The only way to ensure you never offend anyone is to never say anything.
Now that is not to say that one should be callous in the way they express their views and sensitivity concerns should not come into play, but I would not get overly concerned with the occasional bitter remark if you are sincerely and prayerfully trying express you views with sensitivity and compassion.
8. CrochetDiva said the following at 2:20 PM on Apr 17:
I saw that thread. I agree with you. I don't think it was personal, Ted. Some people have a really sensitive tripwire about so-called "unsolicited advice from a married." (And some folks have unexamined threads running through their belief systems-->threads that claim most married people are Smug Marrieds.)
1. Next time, begin your original thread post with a preface that reminds folks that you are in ministry to singles and other young adults and that you often offer counsel to help singles get married.
2. When sharing a link to material that will cause concern, post the link with maybe 3 to 5 sentences of explanation of why you're posting it and what sort of discussion you're hoping to elicit. Don't do too much explication of the material at first. Let the participants read it and come to their own conclusions. Let go of the reins of the discussion a little bit more.
3. Check your attitude/spirit--->you're used to operating in a mentor mode. And those here welcome that. Well, many do. But over at "DiscussionForumNotToBeNamed," anyone who is newish or more of a lurker than a poster and who comes in with a tone verging on authoritative/mentoring/parenting will likely receive the skeptical "eye" from the singletons there. Don't post when you're even feeling the slightest scrap of "Hey, I'm the expert here to help you"; they're just gonna say, "And who asked you anyway?"
I'm like you were—I don't feel alienated from my church. (If I ever feel distant from the congregation as a whole, it's usually b/c I've not been attending services and activities regularly for a spate.) But I have felt awkwardness in interacting with some married people at my church, even those who are my age (which you'd think would bring me and that person together). And I think that usually the awkwardness/tension I feel arises my perceptions and hangups, not from any problem the person has with me. At other times the tension has arisen b/c the other person has some personality aspect that clashes with mine and I can't figure out how to get over that obstacle (which I usually can't even describe, so how could I o'erleap it?). [I'm thinking of a particular married gal at church. She and I have never ever clicked. I don't get why. But in praying for her and then seeing that prayer joyously answered with a yes! from God, I have been able to feel a bit more connected to her, albeit from somewhat of a distance.]
I'm not sure what else to recommend. It's not fair for either group to assume everyone of the other group will replicate the same mistreatment that individuals have received from other individuals before. Just because Suzy Single only gets a phone call from her former best friend when Mrs. PerfectFamily needs a babysitter, doesn't mean that Suzy should think every married gal is going to treat her that way if they become friends.
I think you're coming up against that issue, Ted. Folks think it's a marrieds vs. singles thing.... but it's really more about suspicion and distrust, which have their roots in what? Pride? Envy? Fear? Anger? Probably. And such weeds (suspicion and distrust) can pop up in any garden, be it the MaritalStatus Botanical Gardens or the PoliticalAffliation Conservatory or the SkinColor Memorial Lawn.
9. Katherine said the following at 2:58 PM on Apr 17:
Wow, Ted, what a lovely and honest statement. Thank you.
Christians are about the ministry of reconciliation: being reconciled to God and also to each other--and how shall the latter happen except we listen and learn from each other? The experiences of others, empathetically received, enriches our lives.
Be glad you never felt excluded at church, Ted. It's only at church that I have ever felt like a freak or a threat for being single. Not all churches, but only at church.
There is much I could potentially share on this topic, but for now I think I'll just mention two things that I think would go a long way towards bringing shalom in this area of our common Christian existence:
1- on a macro level, Christians should keep in mind that they are members of the body of Christ--the family of God--first, and members of their biological (or adoptive, etc.) families second. This is more a problem with low-church evangelicals, because their/our ecclesiology is atrophied or almost non-existent. Church is more than a collection of families: church IS a family, and all are equal members.
2- on a micro level, is it much easier to hear and receive what someone is saying when they are your friend. I consider the cultivation of friendship between people who are married and people who are single to be crucial. It is easier to hang out with and become close to those who are most like us in every way, but we miss out on the enrichment that others can bring. This can apply to many things, but I am focusing on how sometimes single friends ( or, any close friendships) are automatically viewed as a threat to a marriage relationship, as if the closeness cultivated with others necessarily entails neglect of a spouse. This is a gravely unfortunate attitude: love is not a zero-sum game.
This goes both ways. I must listen to and receive the experience and perspective of my married siblings in Christ, and they to me as well. Basically, it is a tragically common trait of human beings to distrust and dismiss those who are different in whatever category (marital status, age, sex, ethnicity, you name it). But, to speak in a Christian context, we are all one in Christ, and must love each other deeply, from the heart, and actively work to share our lives with each other.
10. Ted Slater said the following at 3:14 PM on Apr 17:
CrochetDiva -- that's very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
11. J.T. said the following at 3:20 PM on Apr 17:
This is a general thing that turns off my ears, but when people frequently use the words "ought" "should" and "probably". I dismiss people who use this kind of language because it is almost always extra-biblical advice. Any advice that isn't explicitly stated in stripture, I take with a grain of salt.
12. S said the following at 3:52 PM on Apr 17:
Here's what I'd like to tell all those out there who think that my life is less full because I'm not married...
1. Singleness is not a disease it's a stage of life.
2. I get that there is an age limit on having biological children. Enough on that already!
3. I am ok with being single, so why can't YOU be ok with the fact that I'm ok being single?
4. I am single and have a career. I'm not single BECAUSE I have a career.
5. My marital status does not define who I am.
6. Yes, I want to get married and have kids someday. But I want it to be with the right person at the right time. According to God, it ain't that time yet.
7. I have no problem with you trying to fix me up!
8. Even though I'm single, you can still invite me to couple stuff and family stuff. I'm not going to feel sorry for myself.
13. Jules said the following at 4:14 PM on Apr 17:
Ted,
You and other Boundless authors do a fabulous job at stretching us singles without patronizing or demeaning our situation.
Being sensitive and cutting through...I think that's done just as you would other situations, like death, loss of a job, etc. Saying "Oh you're young" to a single, "Oh, you'll get another" to someone just laid-off are blanket statements.
Call me petty, but I do find it rude and demeaning when I hear:
1. "It's always greener on the other side of the fence" (my current field is plenty green, thank you very much, and wanting marriage doesn't mean I hate my current field or that liking my singleness and wanting marriage are mutually exclusive.)
2. "You have such a great career." (Yes, siree, I have a sweet job. But my nice career doesn't keep me company on Friday nights.)
3. "Don't settle" (I think the fact that I'm 25, have an MA, and get asked out very frequently and yet am single evidences that I'm not settling.)
4. "You're so young." (Hmmm...when does young become old? 26? 27? Well I'm almost there.)
"Cutting through what tends to dull our ears.." I would suggest that is accomplished by keenly listening to what the other is saying and saying things in love.
Boundless does a great job at all this...I don't want to become a bitter single and so I ask God to keep me from getting resentful and bitter about rude comments. But they never come from Boundless, don't worry!
14. Susan said the following at 4:19 PM on Apr 17:
It's true that sometimes married couples can be insensitive in the way they interact with singles. Perhaps the single feels as though they are being condescended to. However, that does not give us the right to respond back with anger.
I think the best thing for both sides to do is to ask lots of questions instead of making assumptions as to how the opposite party should think, feel, or act. We all need to extend grace to one another instead of making prideful remarks or responding with bitterness or a cold shoulder.
15. Rachael said the following at 4:22 PM on Apr 17:
Thanks for asking. Don't think I can really help :), but here are current thoughts/experiences/questions...
*Is the younger (in my generation) couple okay if I approach them even though I'm husband/boyfriend-less? How does a 'single' talk with 'a set' - best to stick to a friendly 1-2 minute exchange?
(--> where I'm coming from: I am friends w/ a couple where I had a bit more interaction with the husband because we served in a ministry, so I've probably talked to him a bit more than his wife. [Plus his wife is quiet.] Though I'm not close friends w/ the husband, I think the 3 of us could have a closer relationship if I knew the wife better or if I had "another half" :) that enjoyed their company. They really love each other and I don't want to be a tag along. Like I said, though, we are friends and they have invited me over in group settings and I really appreciated it and enjoyed those times!)
*Regarding the first comment in this post -- it's too bad you were essential dismissed. Dismissal can happen whenver an 'outsider' has an opinion about an 'insider's' group. Thabiti, comment 25, on the African-American theology post expressed this type of idea nicely: "I don't think we should at all accept the premise that critique is only legitimate if it comes from members within the community being critiqued. "
*There are some couples in a small group I'm in, but we don't talk about issues particular to singles or marrieds. I think it would be neat to talk about these things with older married women, but I'm not close enough to any unrelated older married women who I regularly see to feel comfortable approaching them about these things. Idea: mentor-type relationships could be a neat thing if there is a connection.
Good luck on the quest to understanding the single's mind :) But there are definitely lots of issues that relate to both marrieds and singles -- those related to growing in our faith and love of God and others...
16. Rachael said the following at 4:34 PM on Apr 17:
CrochetDiva, I like your comment that "Folks think it's a marrieds vs. singles thing.... but it's really more about suspicion and distrust, which have their roots in what? Pride? Envy? Fear? Anger? Probably. And such weeds (suspicion and distrust) can pop up in any garden, "
Good point..I don't know about the 'suspiction and distrust' part, but there could be some kind of sin that causes the uncomfortability or insecurity.
17. BDB said the following at 4:52 PM on Apr 17:
Putting the age stratification in church is interesting. My church was small when I joined it. While it would have been neat to have a "college/careers" group right after I graduated college, there really weren't many people...and then there were, and they set the age limit too low. Oh well.
But it does lead to some interesting interactions. This week one of my small-group leaders informed me that they're thinking of rebelling and continuing our group beyond the 2-year guideline. I'm fine with that; I've always contended with the pastoral staff that putting on a time limit results in lots of shallow relationships, which is at odds with the stated purpose of small-group theory. People grow overtime; the 2-year limit means that you start over again with a new group, give your testimony, etc. etc.
Though other things happen, too. This weekend I was invited to go on our church's monthly Mexico missions trip. I was invited by the leader of my old small group - to go with their new group. The funny thing is, they changed focus for their new group: it's now the newlyweds class.
This should be interesting.
18. Nicole said the following at 7:00 PM on Apr 17:
I want to say that it's sad that you were dismissed because you were married. I look to married people as someone to learn from honestly. They are at a different point in life, yes, but it is a point I want to be at one day. I also don't understand what makes someone fundamentally different because of that. I'm not sure what the post was about exactly. If it's about being single though, clearly you navigated and ended up where most of want to be one day. I find that valuable.
I think that a lot of churches encourage this. I have been attending a large church with a huge singles ministry. I never came in contact with a married couple in the church other than the singles minister and my friend's sister and brother-in-law that she lives with. I *might* have shook their hand one week but never even picked up their names. I did not like this at all. I enjoy interacting with families and married couples and "older" people -- they are more mature than me, they have a different perspective on life. I don't like being ONLY around the people who are still living with their parents, just moved out, still in school, basically still figuring out how to be "adults." I'm in that place, it's nice to have friends who are there don't get me wrong, but I want some people in my life who have already navigated this and know how to do it. So I can find advice from them.
Basically, people need to stop separating singles like we have a disease and singles need to see married people as not completely different from them and likely someone they can learn from.
19. Rachael said the following at 7:36 PM on Apr 17:
It might be nice for singles and marrieds (perhaps not in a 5 minute conversation at church but when hanging out or in a small group) to talk about some of the practicalities.
In a comment on here someone raised the issue of access to assets.
Gets me thinking...if I end up being a stay at home mom and don't generate any of the income, I think it would be nice to have some access to some money. NOT to abuse it in spending too much, but I wonder if I will feel free to spend it as if it were also (note, not 'only') 'my' money (meeting people for coffee, clothes, etc.). My guess is that I might feel a bit stifled, I guess, unless maybe 'the husband' was very clear that it was okay and encouraging in that way. I just wonder if it might at least at first be awkward to spend someone else's money...but I suppose the couple can sort those things out. I am related to a couple where the wife got 'an allowance'. Not sure if that's what he called it. Not sure if she still gets it. Maybe that's how 'it' works...
20. Leah said the following at 9:20 PM on Apr 17:
I don't think there's a parallel between your experience, Ted, and the comment from the Berkeley activist. The Berkeley activist was saying not to trust someone. I'd guess the commenter who dismissed you simply didn't think you knew what you were talking about, I suppose. I don't think that's a trust issue. Just a "you wouldn't understand" issue. (Just guessing here).
Obewan: Wow. I totally understand what you experienced. And I'm only 20!!! Our young adults ministry (NB: "young adults" ministry, NOT "singles" ministry) used to be from post-school age (18) to 25. This has been changed to 22, with the view that people over that age have probably gotten settled into the workforce, are settled at the church and should get plugged into the church "properly" by attending a normal bible study rather than young adults bible study.
This ticked me off something chronic. It makes it sound like people between 18 and 22 (and so, part of the young adults bible study) are not "properly" plugged into the church.
It also means that girls below 22 who are married to, or even (seriously) dating, guys over 22 are no longer part of the young adults bible studies either. One of my best friends - 20 years old- can't come to the young adults bible studies because she's married to a 25 year old (how old!! ). It also means there's essentially no support for that age bracket- you know, the actual young adults rather than older teenagers. There's no denying the early 20s age bracket has more issues unique to it than most of the older age brackets.
While the church leadership claims the 22-25 age bracket is still part of the young adults ministry (and so can come on young adults retreats etc), they should just be part of a "normal" bible study rather than young adults bible study. I'm not really buying it. I don't see why it should be different.
Sorry, kinda off topic because it's an age thing rather than single/married thing, but it was related to Obewan's post...!
21. em said the following at 9:27 PM on Apr 17:
"S" has totally said what I think too. But, Ted, a lot of us totally welcome the thoughts of married people as brothers and sisters on a wide range of topics including living as a single for God's glory and how we can cultivate marriage oriented friendships with members of the opposite sex. I don't resent my married friends or dismiss their advice. I value them and wish they would include me in their lives more often.
22. BDB said the following at 11:29 PM on Apr 17:
Rachael (#19) wrote:
>>I just wonder if it might at least at first be awkward to spend someone else's money.<<
Actually, that's refreshing. There's some women who make a "career" out of sending other people's money. Of course, there are business owners who do that with investor's money, too...
>>Maybe that's how 'it' works...<<
Well, what if you called it a "budget," and it included all the various household expenses like food, etc.?
Personally I'd like to ensure I always have a budget so I can, say, blow $100 on books whenever I want without it becoming a fight. Perhaps a cosmetics budget would work the same way, I have no idea...
But, like I tell people at work in the budget process, you need to speak up when the budget is being created, and think through what you want to do with the money, and be able to explain it.
True story, my 92-year-old grandmother wanted to build a "sunroom" at their retirement home apartment. Cost: $20,000. It seems that there was a bit of a "disagreement" with my grandfather. Until he got $20,000 to buy a new (used) car. (They both still drive.) Problem solved!
23. BDB said the following at 12:30 AM on Apr 18:
Rachael (#15) wrote:
>>How does a 'single' talk with 'a set' - best to stick to a friendly 1-2 minute exchange?<<
Well, I have no idea where this couple sets their boundaries. As a general rule, it's a good idea to get to know his wife.
My grandparents are very social. Individually, they've been very social will all sorts of people. It's no threat to their relationship - but that's because their communication is so much better by itself.
If you've got a young couple that's still unsteady, you're right, it could create a problem. But if you never, ever flirt with him, and he never, ever flirts with you...I don't even know if I'm making sense. But how he behaves with all women probably matters vastly more than anything you do.
I guess a better example is a guy I know who had to make it a business rule to never go to a meal with a co-worker alone, because rumors would get back to his wife and upset her. Knowing that story, if I went to lunch with a co-worker, I'd always try to bring along a third person.
In fact, there was one time when a person from our corporate office was coming out to meet with a contractor. After she was already on the plane, I did the maps to the location. I suddenly realized that we'd be spending about 4 hours alone in the car - and she'd be in a location she was unfamiliar with with a guy she'd never met. So I asked one of my female managers, who reported to me, to come to the full day of meetings. At least I knew this manager well enough to explain that I thought our corporate guest would be more comfortable with a third person, and she understood and of course came. So it all worked out well.
24. Jo said the following at 1:54 AM on Apr 18:
Rachael (19) -
That's a really interesting question, I'd love to hear some more views on it...
My parents had quite a good system in that they BOTH got a personal allowance of the same amount each. As I understand it, the rest of the money was not necessarily for joint things, but both of them had to agree on the spending of it.
Slightly different situation in that my Mum did work as well (once we were older), and also in that my Dad was the one with the tendency to overspend (opposite to the stereotype!) but that seems like a good system to me.
25. Dan said the following at 7:45 AM on Apr 18:
Ted,
Thanks for this post. I have no words of advice for you about this, but just want to encourage you that I, and many others, can tell that you DO have a heart for single people, especially those that may have not found their spouse in a (so-called) timely manner. Keep up your encouraging posts and the good work!
26. EM said the following at 8:07 AM on Apr 18:
If I ever a non-income earning household manager, the money my spouse earns will be every bit as much mine as his -- that is, it will be ours. I would be doing things that would cost 60K minimum a year to hire done and if we said it up where there were allowances then each of us would have a personal spending allowance and we would make major financial decisions together.
27. Jen said the following at 1:31 PM on Apr 18:
Ted, thanks for your post. I think at some point in my life, I've been one of those annoyed singles that had a good amount of distrust for married folks. Now that I'm about to get married in a few months, I've thought a lot more about this - being engaged is this weird middle ground where you sorta get to be on both sides. Here's my .02:
1- Couples/married folks should be encouraging, but not pushy in regards to addressing someone's singleness. There is a great amount of spiritual discernment and maturity lacking in most married circles about how to treat single people. Do we invite them to couples things? Will they feel left out? Will they think I'm setting them up? Is it okay to try to set them up? I feel bad for them....when in doubt, be prayerful and encouraging of your single friends, and please take time to listen to them! Singles often get a lot of bad advice from other singles about relationships (which makes little sense - why take advice from people who don't have any success?), so listen to them....then speak with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
2 - At the same time, couples should not mistake marriage as entitlement to dispense relationship advice. Married does not equal superior or better, and I think both singles and marrieds need to be humble enough to realize this. Which leads me to...
3 - Humility. Singles need to be humble enough to listen to marrieds, to hear God's word and truth about marriage and take it seriously, and be rid of our pride. I definitely fell into this trap. I was frustrated with myself and my situation, and annoyed at married people for reminding me of it. Paul reminds us in Philippians to be like Jesus and have humility - humility pierces through our pride and our fleshly desires so strongly, and we can only get it by being rooted in Jesus and in the word.
4 - One of the most transforming experiences for me was how God worked in my heart to make me excited for my married friends, and not jealous, bitter or disrespectful. While desiring marriage and longing was a bittersweet experience, especially when I see many happily married couples at church, God revealed to me how single people really can be the biggest cheerleaders for married couples. There are SO many wrong messages and doubts and fears that couples have, and realizing that I need to fight just as hard as married couples against that was HUGE for me. Please please PLEASE if you are single and you know a couple (dating, engaged or married) ask how you can pray for them. It will transform both of you.
I guess the bottom line of my thinking is that we need each other and give a lot to each other. God loves his children, whether single or married, and weeps at the divide and angst between them. Fight against the lies!
28. Nicole said the following at 4:05 PM on Apr 18:
Rachael --
I understand the thought of not having your "own" money, but I don't think in a good marriage it would seem that way. My mom hasn't worked (except for about 2 months the first christmas) since I was born and it has never been like she was spending someone else's money -- although there wasn't really much to spend for a long time. I think that if you are keeping house and raising children you are giving to him as well and it seems like it should be both your money in that sense.
Also, a budget is always a good idea (I am an economist afterall) and then no one fights over the money available to spend on "fun stuff" and you always have money for the necessities. I mean if you really view the money as "our" money there may be times when you think he is spending it on something excessive if it's not budgeted and planned for ahead of time as well as you. A budget is a good idea when you're single. I already don't have to "figure out" if I can do it or not, I look at my budget. :-)
29. Rachael said the following at 4:29 PM on Apr 18:
re: budgets
As for the situation I'm thinking of (and I'm not sure it's the same now), my guess is that the woman and man did not get equal allowances. At least in later years it was the man who would overspend, not the woman. In earlier years, money was tight. The woman did work some years in the relationshiop, but she does not work now. Not sure how it goes now. Even though the woman referred to it as an 'allowance', I have an impresson that the man didn't refer to it as such. I like the idea of mutual allowances or having a 'budget'. I also like the idea presented in comment #26 of the money being both of theirs. Of course I will not abuse the use of my husband's money if he is the sole provider, but I would love it if I didn't have to feel uptight or nervous about spending it. My hope is that he'll know me well enough to be okay with how I spend it, and a budget could be good for that. But money isn't the biggest thing to me - if he wants to be all uptight about it it could be okay, I just think it would be better if we could both relax about it. I really don't even have to think about this issue at all!! Not the biggest bridge to cross...oh yeah...there's not even a bridge to cross :)
30. Rachael said the following at 5:37 PM on Apr 18:
re: singles & marrieds :) (I know, it really narrows it down...)
Is it possible for two temper-less or virtually temper-less people to get married? Has this ever been done?
Just curious...
31. Rachael said the following at 6:13 PM on Apr 18:
BDB (23),
Nope - absolutely no flirting. I don't think I flirt with anyone. I like both 1/2s of the couple and our relationship is just fine and both are nice. But in general if another 1/2 pops up I think it would open up doors for hanging out with another 'set'....
32. J. said the following at 10:54 PM on Apr 18:
This is a good post, Ted. I appreciate your wanting to get feedback on the divide between married couples and singles.
Singles get a lot of unsolicited advice from married people: sometimes from well-meaning people (the camp I think Ted falls into :-), and sometimes from people who want to prop themselves up and be condescending. Unfortunately, Ted's post was probably viewed as yet another piece of unsolicited advice.
As to why singles may resent married people, another thing to remember that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that many people, upon getting married, "downgrade" their single friends or drop them altogether. For singles who have tried to be nothing but good and supportive friends, this is very, very painful.
I agree with the general sentiment expressed on this thread that the church tends to do more harm than good when it comes to bringing married couples and singles together and encouraging singles who want to be married.
As for whether Boundless always treats singles well, I would like to kindly point out a couple of things Candice has said to Lisa during the radio show that were concerning. To wit, on one occasion Candice asked Lisa whether she could babysit her kids while she and Steve were on vacation (when there were other people on the air with her to choose from) and on another Candice commented that Lisa needed a husband after Lisa described her home being broken into and feeling spooked afterwards. As at least one person above mentioned, many singles don't like being viewed as nothing more than convenient babysitters. And Candice, I can almost guarantee you that the love and safety a husband could provide crossed Lisa's mind when she was in that situation. It is annoying for single women to be told that they need husbands when there are no prospects in sight.
33. Rachael said the following at 3:21 PM on Apr 19:
re: my questions at comment #30
In case people are curious - I had lunch with a young married couple today (one of them is related to me). We talked about signs and tempers.
Good news - not all guys have tempers, or if they do it's possible that they're rare :) I could guess this, or pretty much guess this from the observation of at least one relative -and this family member also came up in our conversation, so that was affirming. Also the man of the couple doesn't have a big temper. That's assuring. Also if it's possible for a woman to not have a big problem with this it must be possible for a man not to as well - suppose it's common sense, but still I wonder about the odds of finding a gentle person.
Anyway, to people who may be wondering - just know that not everyone has tempers. Everyone has faults - yes. But in case anyone out there was wondering about this particular fault I thought I'd share a bit of encouragement in this regard.
Yes we should extend grace even in times of tempers. Not here to bash people with tempers but to give hope to people who may wonder about this particular issue. And I'm sure tons of women have ugly tempers as well so it can go both ways.
34. BDB said the following at 3:54 PM on Apr 20:
Rachael (#29) wrote:
>>my guess is that the woman and man did not get equal allowances.<<
It seems to me that this would create conflict eventually. The nice thing about a "budget" is that you can literally allocate the amount available for discretionary items. After major purchases like housing, vehciles etc. are covered, it seems like it would be best to set aside the same amount each. Depending on overall resources, this might be $100, $500 or $2000 a month.
That could be a trip to the mall or a trip to Home Depot; a pair of cute shoes (whatever that means) or a graphite 4-iron. It removes a point of contention that the other party might feel like they can control because they earn the money. It has been my observation that that kind of control conflict usually doesn't work long term.
The friends I went to Mexico with also teach the pre-marriage class for people who want to be married at our church - it is required. Today's class is actually budgeting. Because they were on the weekend missions trip, a guest instructor is teaching it. They report that many of the engaged couples dislike this portion. I guess it can't be all chocolate and kittens...
35. Rachael said the following at 5:44 PM on Apr 20:
Thanks for the response, BDB. I think a budget and grace would be a good combination.
"It has been my observation that that kind of control conflict usually doesn't work long term."
-->Might not always work, and money related or not, it is possible for there to be a relationship in which one party exerts control selfishly. And this can happen long term. I am a bit afraid that I will end up in such a relationship (where there is control used in non-loving ways or/and a regular temper). I believe in submission. But I understand who I am, to an extent, and honestly I realized something about myself and realize if I were to see so many good character and theological things in a guy, that I might overlook the important practicalities and ignore subtle red flags that can actually reflect deeper issues with control or a temper. I think I have the capability to overlook and a personality that could be controlled. Not a good combination, so maybe it's best that I'm not dating. Perhaps my recognition of this will prevent me from entering relationships in which I might be unlovingly controlled in some regards, but honestly I'm not sure.
36. BDB said the following at 7:52 PM on Apr 20:
Rachael (#31) wrote:
>>But in general if another 1/2 pops up I think it would open up doors for hanging out with another 'set'....<<
Typically I don't discuss the quality of a woman's marriage with her. That's something she should be talking to another woman about. It's a boundary.
In general, I think it's a good idea to repeat compliments. If someone enjoyed the cooking of another, tell the cook that the person really liked it. I try to remember to repeat the compliments I hear one person say about another - particularly when I can tell they are sincere. I don't think it hurts anything to mention to a woman how her husband talks about what a great blessing she is. (I wouldn't repeat any criticisms, though, and hopefully they are not sharing them with me.)
>>And I'm sure tons of women have ugly tempers as well so it can go both ways. <<
You're really describing Fruits of the Spirit.
Everyone should grow in patience (which prevents wrath) and gentleness as their spiritual walk gets deeper. You can definitely observe people to see if they are kind to others. That character trait comes out by the way they treat the waiter or the janitor or how they treat kids...I suppose that another advantage of observing someone in volunteer settings is that events can bring these character traits to the surface.
37. Rachael said the following at 10:27 PM on Apr 20:
BDB -
Yeah you can learn by how people are treated in public and how they react to things. It's also possible where the person can treat people in public well and people in private not well. I guess what's important is if the person is seeking to change, though people should not count on the other person changing after the marriage begins...
38. Andrew said the following at 10:07 AM on Apr 21:
It is interesting to read some of these comments about how some of you singles have been treated as second class citizens.
I have never experienced this. The only comments anyone has ever made to me about not being married were by an immigrant from Vietnam, who may have have a different cultural expectation from most people in the U.S., and from my mom.
When I was having trouble finding a job, my mom occasionally pointed out that when she was my age, she had been married, gotten a job, solved world hunger, found a cure for cancer, circumnavigated the world, flown solo across the Atlantic...
39. BDB said the following at 12:00 PM on Apr 21:
Rachael (#37) wrote:
>>It's also possible where the person can treat people in public well and people in private not well.<<
Yep. That's a red flag that says, "Walk away now."
40. kaj said the following at 4:41 PM on Apr 21:
Being "divided by an altar" is one thing, being divided by a cradle is another.
My observation is that when married couples my age start having kids (nothing wrong with that), of course they will focus more on their families (pun intended). They often drop out of "young adult" Bible study class at church and move on to the "nursery" class. Usually there's not the time to hang out on the weekends for CWKs before the children came along. It's a safe guess that money that usually could be spent on movies or restaurants now go toward diapers.
The young moms at church naturally gravitate toward each other, and swap stories about potty training, what the pediatrician said at the last checkup, or what little Johnny or Susie did at nursery school. And as a single person, this is a world I don't live in and have a hard time relating to.
I am not decrying couples having children. But I'm still having a hard time as a single adjusting to that they have moved on. And those who have become parents may have a harder time relating to those who are still single, let alone make an effort to remember their single friends.
41. Leah said the following at 8:41 PM on Apr 21:
Regarding Rachel's (#19) question: Well, neither of my parents had a tendency to overspend, and I don't think they had an 'allowance' or anything. (Truth be told, the concept makes me cringe slightly, but that's another issue). They both bought the things they thought the family/themselves wanted/needed and would always buy the cheapest option. If they ever thought there was a need to "blow the budget" so to speak, they'd discuss it with the other person.
So, in practice, Dad is free to buy his new hard drives for the computer when it needed it, and would go for the cheapest reliable option, and Mum is free to buy her makeup, also going for the cheapest reliable option. It was very rare that either of them ever made a large purchase simply for themselves to the best of my knowledge; ie. large purchases were always for items used by the whole family. Examples of the few exceptions to this were Dad's gun and Mum's sewing machine.
I think I like that way of working things out. Allow each other to spend whatever they think is necessary on particular items, and when it comes to the big, more expensive, things, have a bit of discussion. Of course, if one person is known to be a chronic over-spender you might need to do things differently...
kaj- I guess that's a situation where singles just have to learn to "get over it", to put it bluntly :P And I'm not saying that from the "other" side of the cradle- I'm still childless and unmarried! But really, what can we expect? There are different stages of life, and ministries to support these different stages. People cannot sit in the "young adults" ministry forever. They get older. Get married. Have kids. They would be out of place and unsupported in a "young adults" ministry. If someone is getting bothered by the fact people are moving on in life, I think it's their own attitude that needs to be assessed. And we can't decry them for "not remembering" what it's like to be single, or not paying attention to their single friends. If they have a baby/ children, they have enough trouble paying attention to themselves!
Rachael- regarding your question about temperless/virtually temperless people getting married; two words: Opposites Attract. I'm serious. You'll generally find in all relationships, one person's an extrovert; one an introvert. One very sociable; one a bit shyer. One patient; one more likely to lose patience/their temper.
For sure, sometimes those differences aren't terribly different- ie. Person A might be sociable and Person B might only be a bit less sociable- but the generalisation still stands that opposites attract!
42. kaj said the following at 11:28 AM on Apr 22:
Leah, (#41):
I was hoping for encouragment, and I guess you are right. I don't need encouragement, I need to be chastiserd.
Everyone has moved on and the reason I am so lonely is that I have been cursed by God, because I have displeased Him greatly.
I wanted friends, and He has taken them away. I could be in that group, but He is punishing me.
Let my life be a warning to others: strive to please God, or you will find yourself alone. God will take people away if it is His will and you have not pleased Him.
43. Rachael said the following at 3:52 PM on Apr 22:
Kaj,
In case it's any encouragement to you or to whoever may feel lonely...
Last night I went to a Bible study, and the teaching part of it centered on Matthew 26. Check out verses 36-46. You can clearly see the intensity of his sorrow. What even more clearly shows the intensity is the parallel account in Luke 22, which talks about Jesus sweating blood (vs. 44). Now that's intense. And what did His disciples do? They slept. He found them sleeping more than once (see Matt. 26). But Jesus prayed. Repeatedly. 3 times. And in the Luke passage it talks about Him being strengthened through an angel.
I think we can look at this situation as a model example. Do we ever feel that our friend are 'asleep', or that they have 'disappeared'? What can we do? What should we do? Pray. Repeatedly. (And I need to pray way more than I do, so this is a reminder for me as well.) And God has the power to strengthen just as He strengthened Jesus through an angel.
This isn't the only time Jesus may have felt alone. Remember the cross. What did He say?
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
Now that's the ultimate abandonment. Remember Hebrews 4:15:
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."
Let's remember that God understands our weaknesses, including loneliness....
Grace be with you!
44. Rachael said the following at 3:53 PM on Apr 22:
Oh man, Leah, I think I just lost a comment in response to the last part of your response in 41. I don't feel like being all contemplative again right now about the issue, so, suffice it to say: "thanks for your response" :)
45. BDB said the following at 11:35 PM on Apr 22:
RE: Leah (#41) and Rachael (#44)
There's a great book called Personality Plus by Florence Littauer. It's a Christian book - Campus Crusade press I think.
Anyway, they do a really good job of looking through different temperments - with lots of funny examples. There's even a chapter on "opposites attract."
I've used the book to remind myself how to approach staff members with different personalities - there's really no happy way to push a "steady" person to move faster, for example...
46. Rachael said the following at 5:45 PM on Apr 23:
BDB (45) - thanks for the book recommendation.
"Steady" people, for example, huh?
Wonder what sin 'steady' hides...
stressed vs. impatient/hot-tempered
passionately frustrated vs. greatly angered
messy vs. busy-minded
absent-minded vs. thoughtless
distracted vs. uncaring
self-esteem vs. selfishness
shy vs. pridefully timid
flambuoyance vs. arrogance
selflessnes vs. false humility
sweet vs. hypocrite
outgoing vs. oops-foot-in-the-mouth
Interesting...the people on the receiving end should extend grace and perhaps subconciously think euphemistically, but when we're on the giving end, we should think about our personality traits more harshly, I think, to an extent...
47. Leah said the following at 9:05 AM on Apr 24:
kaj- wow, I wasn't trying to chastise you! I only intended to point out it isn't very well something we can complain about, because life goes on. That's life, in the most literal sense of the phrase.
And I certainly wouldn't say your singleness is punishment because you've displeased God. We've all displeased God!! And the results of our sin are our punishments! But God is gracious and merciful and has given us Jesus to get us out of this mess :) He also blesses us- with friends, spouses, children, property, etc etc. But it all comes in his time, not ours :)
48. BDB said the following at 12:32 PM on Apr 24:
Rachael (#46) wrote:
>>"Steady" people, for example, huh?
Wonder what sin 'steady' hides...<<
Well, these are the folks who are very nice to everyone, but have a will of iron underneath. Stubborness is a subset of the sin of pride - clinging strongly to their own way even when God wants to redirect them.
But every personality type has strengths and weaknesses.
Decisive personalities know what they want, go after it, dominate others, and quickly end up in marriage counseling over control and anger issues...
Analytical personalities spend so much time collecting data that others become frustrated with the slow pace of decisions...
Then there are those happy, social personalites that are completely disorganized and frustrate others with their chaos...