Deny Thy Neighbor
by Denise Morris on 04/07/2008 at 4:12 PM
I wrote an article last week, reminiscent of Suzanne's "Not Your Buddy" article. In mine, I talk about those confusing guy/girl "just friend" relationships. You know the kind -- they're great fun for awhile until things begin to get murky. Someone's feelings get hurt, and usually the friendship dissolves:
Since so many of us Christians think being in a relationship is such a serious thing — and rightly so — many guys and girls end up "hanging out" for endless amounts of time. In reality, they are dating but avoiding the title. This way, they can get to know one another and decide if they want to pursue a relationship, but never really have to commit to anything as pressure-filled as dating.
Right …
Unfortunately, confusion and hurt are often a result of these "friendships" because, even though no one ever calls it dating, feelings still get involved. Oftentimes, people are left hurting over the loss of a relationship, but don't feel justified in their pain because they were never really "dating" to begin with.
Although I do believe that guys and girls can hang out and be friends, I do think it's important for us to be intentional in our relationships with the opposite sex. Otherwise, things can get a bit too comfy and stagnant. Girls can let relationships languish as they try to avoid getting hurt, and guys can enjoy their close friendships with women without having to commit to the pressures of dating.
In the end, though, I think it's important for us to all be considerate of one another when it comes to these types of friendships. And, since I wrote the article for women, I recommend being intentional as a way of respecting our guy friends:
I honestly believe that when women are intentional about the way they conduct their friendships with guys, the men will end up feeling more respected, whether they realize it or not. When we girls aren't willing to be in these undefined relationships for long periods of time, the guys will be forced to step up and either commit to a relationship or move on.
Personally, I believe this is a way of showing respect to guys because it means that we expect more of them. We're not content with guys who are wishy-washy or non-committal. We expect the men in our lives to be just that — men.
Do you all have experience with the "friend zone"? Do your friendships with the opposite sex usually work out, or do they sometimes end up being too involved?
1. Rachael said the following at 4:44 PM on Apr 7
"Do your friendships with the opposite sex usually work out, or do they sometimes end up being too involved?"
Most of them are surface and never move much beyond acquaintanceships, but I updated my situation in a comment on a previous post.
Complication happens when there is heart-sharing and attraction. The two aren't always a mix that ends up in happily ever after...
But there's always a chance that it could be a delayed happily ever after, but in the meantime...
*sigh*
Heart Wear and Tear 101.
2. Marisa said the following at 4:53 PM on Apr 7
What if (hypothetically, of course) a girl and guy become good friends, have a DTR, and the guy tells the girl he is not good enough for her, so they should be just friends "at this point"?
Theoretically, the guy also told the girl there were specific things he wanted to "work on" before considering a relationship with anyone.
Is it possible to actually be friends, knowing there's interest on the girl's end, but the guy has said no (sort of)...
Or is it better to let go of that friendship altogether (which was truly enjoyable as a friendship, not a flirtatious emotional-dependency-substitute) rather than try to be close friends?
Asked another way, is it best to have an all-or-nothing approach (date or don't talk), rather than cling to a dead-end delusional hope? It would seem likely the girl could subconsciously harbor romantic intentions while saying she just wanted to be friends, and thus become guilty of misleading a brother.
So... I look forward to hearing everyone's insights into this hypothetical situation. :)
3. Tami said the following at 5:17 PM on Apr 7
I'm starting to think this "oh, we're only friends" attitude doesn't actually kill any attraction that's really there. I'm not saying that you have to spill all your feelings to each other right out the gate, but it might be better to say (at least to yourself), "I am enjoying getting to know this person." That maintains a more positive attitude than "let me hang on here and insist to myself that we are only friends and there is no attraction at all." If you are "hanging out," there must be SOME sort of attraction, or else you wouldn't want to spend one-on-one time with each other.
If other people ask about the status of your relationship, it's probably best (for all involved) if you play it off, at least in the moment. You're not required to "spill everything" just to satisfy their curiosity about the status of your relationship.
[All this is assuming that you truly are at "friends" status and there's no hooking up going on.]
My personal question is (and has been for a while), why would a guy ask a woman out and assume that she'll assume they're only friends? And why would a woman continue to accept solo invitations from a guy she's not interested in? As stated above, one is likely to be developing interest and/or attraction. I don't get either one of those scenarios.
4. a sassy sister said the following at 5:18 PM on Apr 7
well, as someone who not only has visited the friend zone but owns property and a pet there, it can be tough sometimes. But the times it usually has been tough is because I actually had never even considered to treat this person just as my brother and nothing more from the beginning. The lessons I continue to learn from this (and many other opposite sex relationships) is that I cannot look a guy and determine whether or not we're supposed to date or be friends. In other words, I'm letting God show me the real purpose and reason for this person being in my life. And the answers have been interesting. For some it has been to encourage; for others it has been to give hope and comfort(familial, of course).
But as it stands right now, I'm starting to think that maybe I'm supposed to be just a sister to Christian guys---besides, I'm too opinionated, methodical, outgoing, and apparently "intimidating" for them to see me as anything other than a "great sister" and "great friend." The men who do approach are significantly older(i.e. at least ten years older and ascending)
Granted, there are some lines in the friend zone and intimacies in the friend zone I haven't crossed. But the one thing I refuse to do is to think that any desire for a relationship supercedes the commandment to walk in love with my brother(no matter how difficult it may be in relating to them). For me, caring, sharing, kindness, support, encouragement, is not a button to push or a switch to flip. Does that mean that I give my brothers all of my time and am always available? Nope. It just means I share love with boundaries, and I get on with living my life doing what I know God has told me to do...
5. S said the following at 5:46 PM on Apr 7
I guess I don't understand the big deal about having friends of the opposite sex. I have great guy friends that I find invaluable to bounce ideas off of, get a different point of view, etc. I guess my thought is that this is more a maturity issue. If you can't "handle" having a guy friend, then maybe you better hold off until you can.
6. Leah said the following at 8:14 PM on Apr 7
haven't we been through this several times in the last month, with articles such as "Encouragement for the DTR-weary", "DTR Success Stories", the entire "Let's Talk about Dating" series (7 parts), and the ensuing discussions on "Love and Marriage: Luther style", and a few others?
7. BDB said the following at 8:38 PM on Apr 7
The OP wrote:
>>When we girls aren't willing to be in these undefined relationships for long periods of time, the guys will be forced to step up and either commit to a relationship or move on. <<
Maybe. But only if she explains the reason why she's not willing to spend time in an undefined relationship. If she just says she's "too busy," then he will assume she doesn't like him, and move on to someone who's not busy.
If you think negligent parenting creates a hook-up culture, ponder the possibility that many men grow up without ever hearing about being intentional. They get to college and are presented with three choices:
1) The hook-up culture, not a viable option for Christians.
2) The intentional/courting culture.
3) The women who are not in college to get an Mrs. degree (I actually had women complain about their peers who were doing this) and are fine hanging out because once they graduate college, they're moving on anyway.
A Christian guy who never develops any "feelings" for a specific woman can find plenty of companionship in group 3 - without violating any of the 10 commandments.
8. Patrick Chan said the following at 10:38 PM on Apr 7
No way, man, if I like a girl, I'll ask her out! :-)
I don't want other guys thinking that the girl I like is just my "friend," so that they're free to ask her out when it's really me who wants to ask her out instead!
Sorry if that's too cutthroat.
But, you know what, I want to try to win her heart, and if I fail, then so be it, maybe she'll fall for another guy, but at least I tried (and, alas, believe me, I don't say any of this lightly as I've just recently had my heart broken into a gazillion little pieces of wimpering Old Dan without Little Ann unrequited puppy dog love, so I know how badly it hurts). Still, when it's all said and done, when it comes to asking out a sister-in-Christ I find attractive, if there must be regret, then I'd rather regret the things I did than the things I didn't do.
9. Becca said the following at 5:00 AM on Apr 8
I agree that we must be intentional in our friendships-- if you have romantic feelings for a friend, it's important to get that out in the open. But I also feel that guy-girl friendships are usually far less complicated than people make them out to be. I'm a 21-year-old girl,and since middle school, almost all of my friends have been guys. The dynamic between us is generally that of brothers and sisters. Does this occasionally cause problems? Yes. Do one person's feelings sometimes get too involved? Yes. But ALL friendships have their ups and downs, and negotiating problems between the sexes is no more difficult than dealing with the typical dramas that arise among all-girl friendships. I love, appreciate, and respect my guy friends for what they are-- friends. By limiting yourself to just one friendship (or "undefined relationship") with a guy, and then insisting that friendship progress to something more as soon as possible, you're missing out on knowing some of the most joyful moments and most wonderful people life has to offer.
10. single certain girl said the following at 7:54 AM on Apr 8
i have been all over the MAP on this one, in all kinds of ways. most of them detrimental.
i've always gotten along well with guys and have always had a lot of guy friends. but the older i've gotten the more i've learned that guy friendships are no substitute for good girl friends. the investment time in same-sex friendships, for me, is longer and harder, but the payoff is totally worth it.
i now have one pretty good guy friend, and we work hard to keep good boundaries in place. we don't talk on the phone for long periods of time, we don't hang out one-on-one much (but it does happen, and when it does it's totally cool), and we encourage each other in areas of life like dating and pursuing same-sex friendships.
11. Beth said the following at 8:01 AM on Apr 8
I know I can think of at least three guy friends of mine that have worked out wonderfully- one from pre-highschool, and two from college. We hung out a ton, especially the ones in college. They live far away now, but we still stay in touch and i love them a lot in a "brother" sort of way. We've never had any miscommunication about our 'status' or any hurt feelings. Through a lot of it I was single, but we remained good friends even as i began seriously dating someone. I cherish their friendship a lot. I understand the point of the article, and I know it definitely does happen, but it's not ALWAYS the case. They contribute things to my life that my (much more numerous) girl friends cannot.
12. JL said the following at 8:01 AM on Apr 8
Unfortunately, I think you are being a bit too stereotypical. It has been my experience as a male that often the guy is ready to commit and the girl is the wishy-washy one in this day adn age. Many of my friends feel this way too. I feel these generalities are far too often expressed on the blog. What about a male who does show sensitivity (who despite popular opinion does still exist)? Or the girl who enjoys the non-committal companionship? There was a great set of articles on modern male and female trends a while back I've attached below, but even then I don't think you can lump us all into a couple of categories. What's a ready guy to do?
Christian Guys Distinct from "Child-Men"?
http://www.boundlessline.org/2008/01/christian-guys.html
The Rise of Single Young Females
http://www.boundlessline.org/2008/01/the-rise-of-sin.html
13. Kristi said the following at 8:31 AM on Apr 8
I understand and agree. I was just in a situation similar to what is being described here. I was "talking" to a guy, but we decided to remain "just friends." He expressed his feelings to me, but said that he would like to wait to see what God did in the situation. While I believe his intentions were good, there came a point where my feelings were deeply hurt because of his did not consistently act as if he liked me. He said, "But we are just friends . . ." I spent an hour explaining that what you say and what you do are two different things -- and letting him know I was disappointed with the way the situation was handled by both of us. Making intentions known and then sticking to them is important.
14. B.M. said the following at 8:53 AM on Apr 8
I think this is great advice! I find too many guy/girl friendship do end up in a mess. From my experience, it most often happens because one or both parties refuse to admit attraction to one another, but repeatedly behave flirtatiously towards one another. How often have you heard someone say: "Oh, he's like my brother" only for them to get involved later? I think the most important thing to preserve friendships and preserves feelings and self esteem is to conscientiously maintain boundaries. If you are "just friends" with a guy, don't subtly flirt with him, let him buy you dinner or movie tickets, etc. In the end, a big thing is being honest with yourself and not acting flirtatiously with guys you claim are friends.
15. Tami said the following at 9:19 AM on Apr 8
S, I don't think it's a question of not being mature enough to "handle" a friendship with a man; I think it's being wise enough to maintain proper boundaries. It's fine to have guy friends, but it's important that we know our motivations for doing so.
Marisa, in the situation you describe, I would give the guy plenty of space to "work out" his "stuff." Don't ignore him if you run into him, but don't worry too much about hurting his feelings by spending less time with him. If he said the girl was "not good enough" for him, then frankly the girl's energy is best invested elsewhere.
16. Jeremy said the following at 9:36 AM on Apr 8
It seems like there is what seems to be the overwhelming viewpoint of people on this site, that any member of the opposite sex is only a potential romantic partner. Friendships are important relationships (some might argue -more- important than romantic relationships), yet they are constantly insulted and reduced to a second-rate status with phrases like "we are just friends".
Friendships can exist with the same sex or the opposite sex, and you know what? Feelings will be involved, in either case. It will always be painful to lose a close friendship, no matter what the gender of the friend is. I think what really hurts Christian guy-girl friendships is the viewpoint (perpetrated by a lot of comments and articles on this site) that guys should only see girls as potential romantic targets and nothing else (and vice versa), and that friendships between opposite sexes are abnormal and "undefined" relationships.
Jesus seemed to have been friends with Mary and Martha for a number of years. Should they have cut off that relationship because he refused to "step up" and ask one of them out? Or, just maybe, can friendships be valuable in and of themselves?
17. Grace said the following at 10:49 AM on Apr 8
Perfect timing. I'm dealing with a situation like this right now (actually, it's been going on for more than a year...) I've been close friends with this guy for several years, and our relationship always felt really comfortable, which I guess gave me a false sense of security - so I was really vulnerable and honest with him about every part of my life. Like I would be with my own brother. We told each other everything. I respect him and care about him so much, he is like an older brother to me. My parents practically worship the ground he walks on, and could go on for hours on what a great example he is, and how he is such "perfect" Christian guy.
Problem is, he started having feelings for me, and even though he is vague about our relationship, he acts more like my boyfriend than just my friend. He tells me how beautiful I am, and he is really clingy, even though he lives 1.5 hours away, and wants to talk to me on the phone all the time and texts me incessantly. I don't even talk to my BFF this much! I am not interested in pursuing a relationship with him beyond friendship. But I am extremely concerned about hurting his feelings because I do care for him very much. So I try to avoid him because I thought that would be a good hint, but the more I avoid him, the more he chases me. He is still really vague about actually talking about his intentions though. Do you think I was leading him on by hanging out with him a lot when I had no idea that he might have feelings for me? I definitely didn't mean to lead him on; I just thought he was so much fun to hang out with!
I would love some advice about how to deal with this. WHAT on earth should I do so that I don't hurt his feelings?
18. Brooke said the following at 12:59 PM on Apr 8
Comment #4: I love that - very good observations and advice. I live in the friends zone too and I think it's because of many of the reasons you listed. glad to know I'm not alone
19. tgify2001 said the following at 1:27 PM on Apr 8
In my experience, one party is always hoping for more.
20. Sarah P. said the following at 2:44 PM on Apr 8
Grace (#17): Guess what? It sounds like you're gonna hurt his feelings no matter what you do. It's terrible. But ya, it's gonna happen. The question is, now or later? And later, will you hurt him more? Any chance you can just be totally honest and explain your discomfort to him just the way you've posted it on here?
One thing I've noticed is that the entire social dynamic seems to change between college and the rest of life. I haven't been out long enough to pin it down, although I do know that it seemed much easier to be friends with guys in college. Perhaps that was merely out of necessity because of living in close proximity. Or maybe that's because we could all view large portions of each others' lives to a certain extent, so we knew who was trustworthy. Anyway. The rules change.
21. Christine said the following at 3:21 PM on Apr 8
i think the broad spectrum of responses perfectly illustrates the problem as i have begun to see it ... there is no standard for relationships! this may seem obvious, but the ramifications may not be. as limiting as the previous practices of arranged marriages and courting may seem, the served a very legitimate purpose. feelings are now allowed to be a part of the equation, but i think we have lost sight of the fact that love is a choice and not a feeling. liberation is both a blessing & a curse.
i believe that friendships with the opposite sex are absolutely beneficial AND possible. things become tricky when feelings get involved. but, because there is no standard, what friendship, dating, and transitioning from one to the other in either direction should/is supposed to look like is going to be different for each individual and each couple (romantically involved or not). therefore, i think the key is setting and sticking to boundaries as well as a commitment to communication.
i have been in all of the previously mentioned situations ... some have been handled well, some have not, so i definitely don't have all the answers, but i do know that people worry too much about hurting the other. pain deferred is always more painful. of course it's hard to consider the possibility of losing someone about whom you care deeply, but i do know that hiding your heart for the sake of theirs is NOT the answer.
22. S said the following at 4:38 PM on Apr 8
Jeremy - You said it much better than I did.
I agree. I have guy friends that I've never had a romantic thought about. They're my buddies. They're my friends.
23. Jo said the following at 4:48 PM on Apr 8
Grace, #17. Don't avoid him, tell him straight. It's awkward but it's necessary - guys don't get subtlety. You run more risk of hurting him and losing his friendship if you allow him to keep harbouring hope.
As to the OP...
I have several good guy friends, two in particular who I count among my closest friends and share a lot of stuff with. Both I've know for over a decade, both have 'liked me' in the past but I have only ever seen them as friends, I've been clear about that and our friendships have survived and stayed strong. Both live far away and so when I see them it's often one to one. There is no question at all of the relationships being 'undefined', all parties know exactly where they stand.
In other words, I have never found that guy/girl friendships are a problem. If they develop feelings for me, I address it. If I develop feelings for them it's harder, but I give myself unnecessary heartache for a while and then I get over it. I do think it's a question of different people's personalities, and maturity to some extent. For some people guy/girl friendships may not be wise or helpful, but one size doesn't fit all.
24. Rose said the following at 4:53 PM on Apr 8
I think it's possible for men and women to be good friends with each other.
It's the messy area between friendship and a relationship that's a bad idea.
Re. Marisa
Anyone who says "I'm not good enough for you" is being emotionally manipulative and does not even deserve your friendship.
It's someone trying to make themselves look good and telling you your feelings don't matter.
(Erm... yes I had a similar experience with an ex-boyfriend, can you tell?)
If you have to reject someone a definate No is much better in the long run then someone trying to make themself look nice.
25. Rachael said the following at 4:55 PM on Apr 8
S,
Like Tami, I don't think it's necessarily a maturity issue (though I think it can be).
Tgify2001 said, "one party is always hoping for more." Though I believe people can be friends without hoping for more, it is when one party hopes for more that things get complicated. And unrequited love can be experienced by anyone regardless of their 'maturity' or lack thereof. The heart and mind are not always on the same page, unfortunately.
26. Grays said the following at 5:11 PM on Apr 8
It's a good point in a way, but posts like these make me think that everyone but me has forgotten what it means to have *sisters*.
27. Katherine said the following at 5:22 PM on Apr 8
Friendship is hard work, whether your friend is the same sex or the neighboring sex. Communication is essential, as well as the ability to give and receive grace, and work through whatever issues arise within your friendship. In college I had an easier time with one of my close male friends than one of my roommates: my roommate and I came from different perspectives on certain things and had to work through it, whereas my male friend and I shared so much in common and went through similar journeys in college. This is simply one example. I have had a whole spectrum of experience, as all of the readers here have had taken as a whole. I believe it impoverishes our understanding of friendship to understand male-female relationships only in terms of potential romance. I have been friends with several men, and stayed friends. Is our relationship stagnant, going nowhere? Of course not! It is well worth the seasons of difficulty and ambiguity, because we have come through on the other side closer and better for it.
Central to the Christian's work is the ministry of reconciliation. I think a big part of that is the reconciliation of men and women to each other in the context of Christian community. Jesus called us no longer servants but his friends: surely we must also learn how to be friends, GOOD friends with one another. Yes, there will be attraction issues in at least some cases. By God's grace they can be worked through successfully. Sometimes friendships don't work out: it hurts whether it is a same sex friend or one you had hoped to date (or vice versa). But, in the end, the friend zone (as others have put it) is a very good place to be.
Oh, and Jeremy (#16), I heartily agree with you: "just friends" is a most unfortunate and insulting phrase, and friendship is too often relegated to a second-class. state.
28. BDB said the following at 5:30 PM on Apr 8
Grace (#17) wrote:
>>I would love some advice about how to deal with this. WHAT on earth should I do so that I don't hurt his feelings?<<
Alas, someone's feelings are going to get hurt.
If you spent lots and lots of time with him, yes, he may feel that you led him on.
If you've really decided to never pursue a relationship with him, you should just tell him so he can stop. Or at least make the observation that you spent too much time with him and need to not do that any more.
He may not know that he is supposed to state his intentions. You can always send him a link to a few relevant Boundless articles and tell him to not text you until he's read all of them. But that's probably only appropriate if you would consider continuing after he stated his intentions for more.
29. BDB said the following at 5:42 PM on Apr 8
Tami (#3) wrote:
>>My personal question is (and has been for a while), why would a guy ask a woman out and assume that she'll assume they're only friends?<<
Um...because he's had women ask him out then later insist that that's normal for friends? That's an easy way to get into the habit.
Clearly the "all-or-nothing" approach works well for people with "decisive" personalities. You the type - the ones who make a decision and stick to it no matter how much of a disaster it becomes...
Those with analytical minds are at a serious disadvantage: they need a lot of information to make a decision. These are the people you read about who get married after spending years and years as friends...
30. Adrian said the following at 5:49 PM on Apr 8
Grace, I am right now going through the experience of being the guy in this particular situation. Except for some slight differences in details I could have believed you were my friend acting under a pseudonym.
I met a particular girl two years younger than me in my final year of high school and very quickly became attracted to her. However, I had committed in my heart not to date while in high school so I held off, despite becoming quite good friends with her. After a couple of months of this she got involved with another guy and went out with him. That was a year and a couple of months ago.
After leaving school our friendship kind of separated for a while, I became interested in another girl and that resulted in my heart being broken and guess who I found myself confiding in? The girl I had liked. We began talking fairly heavily again, I had earlier provided her with some fairly significant spiritual guidance in her life, and I fell for her again.
She sensed something was up and asked me about it and I admitted I had feelings for her. It got quite complicated in that she admitted she had feelings for me too, despite being in a relationship with another guy.
We both really valued the support we gained from each other but boundaries were always an issue. We would spend long hours chatting on MSN, often talking about quite intimate stuff. It was obvious both of us were too attached.
Eventually, and perhaps too late, I really truly sought to give the relationship over to God and he showed me how it was leading me away from him and a couple of weeks ago we ended our friendship altogether. That lasted for a few days before we were talking again. We both felt it was right that we talked but that I should not flirt with her, or do anything that would be specifically guy-girl. In the next week she broke up with her boyfriend and I respectfully kept the distance she asked me to. Just last week though, I felt impressed to confide that I really did hope that we could spend our lives together and she indicated similar feelings. I had felt fine about the friendship since that.
Until last night. She has been struggling to deal with emotional wounds from her other relationship and had been seeking God about the issue. Yesterday I had really asked God to lead and guide in this area of my life. So last night, out of the blue, she drew up some hard boundaries - no physical contact, no emotional conversations. I am glad she has done so. She needs to be able to deal with wounds and to learn to depend on Jesus, she said. I respect her for that.
I am glad she has done what she has done. I know it is the right thing. It is always hard when either party is wishy-washy about the relationship. With both of us now determined to keep boundaries, I pray that God will help us do that.
The hardest part though will be guarding my heart from that hope for a future marital relationship. We both feel God telling us that it is not right for us to end our friendship completely so I am not sure how it will go. I am heavily trusting upon God in this area.
Hope that provides a bit of perspective for you Grace.
31. Jen said the following at 7:10 PM on Apr 8
Grace- you have brought this upon yourself, dont you think? Not to sound harsh. But there are going to be implications when you spend that much time with a guy and share so much with him.
Why don't you feel you would pursue a relationship with him? (remember that article by Candice- when to settle i think it was called)
32. Nicole said the following at 7:35 PM on Apr 8
Having lived far too much of my life in the "just friends" zone with guys, I can say quite honestly that it's... messy.
The moment they are "one of your closest" friends you've went to far. At least for me. I honestly want my future husband to be one of my closest friends -- my best friend for life. (makes sense right?) And when you have a guy friend who is one of your closest friends, presumably you must get along very well with them, and presumable they are someone you really respect. At this point, I must ask, why would I not date them or consider marrying him? Hmmm...
That's where you get into trouble. By the time you're just there friend, you might as well be a boy. Cause they see you as one of the guys. A little more sensitive, great for girl advice, definitely a help when they want to start dating another girl. But not as a potential girlfriend. Ever. I have managed to hide my feelings from both of the guys I've went through this with, two guys I still consider close friends, and have helped them date their current girlfriends. But it hurt a lot -- and still being their friend does often. And it hurts a lot when they get the girlfriend and are suddenly so busy with her or she's jealous of you and they stop talking to you. Pretty much sucks actually.
I'll admit that last part may be where my post comes from, a little bitterness for my closest friends ditching my for the new girlfriends.
33. Heidi said the following at 8:12 PM on Apr 8
Grace,
I'd strongly encourage you, if you haven't already, to approach your parents on the matter, explain your concerns, and seek their counsel. I especially recommend looking to your father to lead you. Let the responsibility rest mainly on his shoulders...that's one of the blessings of being a daughter and having an earthy father. :)
A few years ago I was in a very similar situation, and I even confronted him several times on the issue as frankly as I knew how, but the problem only worsened. Finally, instead of merely asking my dad for suggestions I asked him what I should do, with the intention to follow. The relationship did not end prettily, but when all was said and done the fact that I had followed my dad's lead gave me great comfort and encouragement, because from there onward, at my request, he made the major decisions, carrying the heaviest part of the burden. It saved me much agony over wondering if I had done things right or not.
What you desire to do cannot be done without hurting your friend's feelings. Attempts to not make it hurt will only confuse him as mixed signals, so it's best to be straightforward.
Again, your parents' support and guidance in situations like these is truly priceless.
34. farmer Tom said the following at 9:15 PM on Apr 8
Grace,
I am not interested in pursuing a relationship with him beyond friendship.
As a guy, a stupid guy, let me ask,
Why?
For several years this guy was a "close" enough friend that you "told each other everything". You were, "so I was really vulnerable and honest with him about every part of my life".
Futhermore, you say, "he is like an older brother to me. My parents practically worship the ground he walks on, and could go on for hours on what a great example he is, and how he is such "perfect" Christian guy."
Now, suddenly he expresses interest in you, takes action to make the relationship more than it was and your reaction is what?
Your behavior is exactly why Christian men find women so infuriating. By your standards it was fine to treat the guy as a intimate as long as he was a door mat for you to wipe your feet on, you could consume his time, and thoughts as long as he got nothing in return. Now suddenly when he wants to be more than a door mat, you are acting as though he is unworthy of your time and interest.
Just what is it you what from him? A shoulder to cry on, a listening ear while you rattle on, a "instant date" when you feel lonely? Seems to me that you were using him. As long as he served your purpose, he was a fine lap dog. But, now when he desires to make the relationship more meaningful, you suddenly have a whole list of reasons why he isn't good enough.
Good luck, I hope the next guy you use that way will not wind up getting hurt the way you're going to break this one.
Women!!
35. Mike said the following at 9:52 PM on Apr 8
Amen Patrick #8. I agree, there is no way I'm going to let a woman I'm seriously interested in pursuing, not know my intentions. Sometimes the timing isn't great (usually a little too soon!) but either way it is far better to express your intentions and lose out than to linger in never-never land.
I think the Boundless staff does a great job addressing this from both gender perspectives. Ladies, either go after or "buy-in" to the men that are pursuing you (see the podcast on "settling") or have the DTR and tell them what you see the friendship looking like: i.e. no hours-on-end intimate conversations and exclusive alone time. And then live with your choice, which probably means he isn't going to call you and provide the same level of emotional support.
Guys: buck up and tell the woman how you feel. If she wants to get to know you, show her how great you are. If she eventually says no anyway then walk away and deal with it. I look at my female friends from the perspective as being the spouse of another (whether they're single or not) and therefore someone that I shouldn't covet, either physically, mentally, or emotionally. If she's a friend and I've developed feelings for her, I'm going to tell her. If she isn't feeling the same, I guess in my mind her time truly belongs to someone else and therefore it is sinful for me to "covet" her any longer.
End point: Jeremey, sorry man, but I think you got the Jesus, Mary, Martha, relationship all wrong. The only thing Christ "stepped up" for was the Cross and sacrificing for the sins of humanity.
36. Matt said the following at 9:31 AM on Apr 9
I don't think it is good for guys and girls to be super close friends.
I was listening to a talk from Campus Crusade's Christmas Conference in San Diego and it was a talk directed at men.
The speaker was talking about how when you are in college(and really any time of life) you should be attempting to make strong same-sex friendships. All the time he hears people wanting to have opposite-sex freindships(I know where I went through a phase where I yearned for that). However, once you start dating someone and especially if you get married, those opposite sex friendships will go away. They have to. So what a shame it would be to get our of college(or any phase of life) having several super close friends(that are the opposite sex) and then having to have them go away.
Same-sex friendships are the ones that will last the test of time because they are the only ones that can.
37. a sassy sister said the following at 10:13 AM on Apr 9
Matt,
the one relationship lasts the test of time is the one that you have with God. Period. Because man is fallible and we live in a fallen world, neither same sex relationships nor opposite sex relationships last forever.
Sometimes I wonder if we have trouble with these things because we don't understand what it means to be a real friend and what that looks like in a God honoring way(which, btw, has boundaries, grace and truth in it).
38. Margaret said the following at 10:22 AM on Apr 9
The buddy zone is so dangerous for so many people. I have found it's much better to nurture friendships with other women than to try to cultivate "platonic" friendships with guys. Perhaps I have insulated myself a little bit from having a wide range of close guy friends, but in the long run, it's kept me from a lot of the drama I see in so many of my girl friends. I do have guy friends, but they are just that-- friends. We hang out after church when the group goes out to lunch, plan fun nights for everyone to hang out and relax. But I've intentionally limited one-on-one time that goes much beyond small talk. It's my way of guarding myself for my future husband.
I save the intimate "hopes and dreams" talks for phone calls with my mom, for girls' weekends with my couple of best friends, and for my prayers. I really don't understand why people would make all of that such personal information so widely known to men who are not going to be your husband. What happened to discernment and not sharing too much information with people who don't need to know?
39. Amber said the following at 12:38 PM on Apr 9
Mike,Patrick and ladies:
All I have to say is praise the LORD that some guys have a clue. I NEVER let my guy friends get too close for them and for me. He wants time alone then he has to ask me out or at least define things for me like I want to get to know you in groups etc. Of course I have wonderful guy friends with whom I know there is nothing beyond true fellowship. If I ever feel there were feelings (and in the girls defense we don't always know) I straight up told them like it was. In fear and trembling, yes, but the truth.
It is frustrating for me when I do return the interest, and no one steps up to the plate. I tend to stick around for these guys only for a time, then I have to move on. When I wait though (and I do wait for guys to get the courage b/c I know its not easy), its out of respect b/c I will not respect a man who doesn't do the asking; so I give him that chance. I will help if he wants to get to know me better by encouraging him even inviting him to group activities as we get to know each other better: helpmate means just that but I am not hanging around sulking in friendship mode forever.
It's unkind and sometimes selfish. Thanks guys for encouraging me that some guys are willing to do the right thing by us gals...trust that there are girls willing to do the same.
What a relief to read this article, and see that I was right all along to not let this happen.
40. Sarah P. said the following at 1:18 PM on Apr 9
Farmer Tom (#34): Do you really think the whole msg of chastisement is necessary? Grace is probably going to suffer from this situation too, in which case God will most likely teach her what He wants her to know.
Besides, trust me, guys are capable of doing exactly the same thing. I'm not sure it's necessary to rant at the entire female sex.
41. Grace said the following at 1:39 PM on Apr 9
To Adrian, actually I am using a psuedonym, but that girl is definitely not me! ;-) I'm very sorry for the situation you are in now, I will definitely pray for you and the girl! She sounds wonderful. Maybe she just needs some space and time to think - I know I am all about space!
To farmer Tom, you have made a great many assumptions about my relationship with this guy, and grossly mistaken (not to mention overwhelmingly offensive) ones at that. Where did you pick up that I treated him as a door mat?! For heaven's sake, I greatly respect him and wouldn't dream of treating him in the infamous manner in which you suppose I have been treating him. And USING him? You had no call to say that I have been using him. I was the one who was there for him when his best friend came out to the world that he was gay; excuse me, but *I* was the shoulder being cried on in this relationship. Not only did I have him to comfort when his heart was breaking over his best friend, but I was there for his best friend when he felt rejected by him because of his gayness to the point of being sent to a mental institution. Okay, TMI... I am not an especially needy (in the emotional sense) person in the first place, and I definitely was not running to him out of loneliness. If anything, he was lonely. I want to stress that I was not a "taker" in this friendship. I take all my relationships extremely seriously. Which I why I want to cause him as little pain as possible.
You seem to insinuate that a friendship is somehow lacking in "meaning". Our friendship is, and always has been, extremely meaningful for both of us.
As regards his constant attention, many (most?) girls are turned off by incessant clinginess. Because we HAVE a life (a very busy one, I might add) outside of guys. When I marry, my husband will practically *be* my life, but for right now I am not married, and do not intend to marry in the near future - for many significant reasons that I don't wish to go into here. I committed a long time ago not to date anyone until I feel that I am at a point in my life where I am ready to marry. This is out of respect for all the men out there, not personal whim. So that is why I am not interested in pursuing a relationship of that nature with him or any other person at this chapter in my life. When I first met said guy, I was *very* naive about relationships in general, and I seriously didn't have the foggiest idea that my spending lots of time with him could lead to either party's feelings getting trampled over. In fact, every part of this friendship was very gradual.
If I had the slightest inclination of treating any man with such reckless abandon - as you seem to be accusing me of! - for his heart, time, and feelings, then I would have picked a far less worthy individual.
42. Katie B said the following at 2:41 PM on Apr 9
I have an interesting situation with some 'buddies.' A few guys who have in the past expressed intrest and pursued me to various degrees...whom I rebuffed in no uncertain terms for various resaons that I made clear to them... are sticking around. They want to be friends because I am 'worth being just friends with.' One weird guy said that he believed God had called him to marry me, and when I refused, said he would love and support me anyway, because Christ's love is unconditional, his will be too. (I immediately set very clear boundries with him, I was seeing someone else)
Aside from the creepy 'unconditional love' guy, what do do with these guys? They are nice, I like them, no one is being led on, and all the normal boundries are in place.
43. Matt said the following at 3:03 PM on Apr 9
#37 - A Sassy Sister said in response to my post (#36)
the one relationship lasts the test of time is the one that you have with God. Period.
Fine, yes, no relationship will last forever. However, you totally ignored the whole point of what I was saying.
You shouldn't be striving to build deep personal friendships with people of the opposite sex because it is not a good use of time.
44. Tara said the following at 3:22 PM on Apr 9
Matt: However, once you start dating someone and especially if you get married, those opposite sex friendships will go away. They have to.
That's really interesting. I haven't thought about it in concrete terms before but I guess it's something I know to be true. I've always known that I wouldn't want a husband to have a best friend who was a woman and not me. And since I've started dating my boyfriend I've noticed that my guy friends with whom I wasn't even super close to begin with have drifted even more out of my life.
a Sassy Sister - the one relationship lasts the test of time is the one that you have with God. Period. Because man is fallible and we live in a fallen world, neither same sex relationships nor opposite sex relationships last forever.
I'm not sure what you mean. Of course human relationships don't last forever because humans don't live forever or we don't know one another forever. But if you're implying that a person can't form and then sustain a friendship for the rest of his/her life then that's a really cynical take on the matter. Yes, we're all fallible and our friendships might not be the perfect examples but they still can stand the test of time. I've had friendships fall apart but I have others that have lasted through thick and thin and over vast distances with long times of not seeing each other. I give God the credit for that and thank Him for blessing me with such friends but they're still human relationships. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by not lasting.
45. Ro said the following at 6:11 AM on Apr 10
Matt, I found your post encouraging. I had to break up with a guy that I dated for almost a year because he was too close to his female friends, and his best friend was his ex that he had previously been in a relationship with for 4 years.
Its really encouraging to me to know that there are guys who do put up proper boundaries.And helps me to know that I did the right thing in no longer being in that relationship.
It had never occurred to me though that I should invest more in friendships with females - but I think this is a wonderful principle.
46. Katherine said the following at 7:15 AM on Apr 10
Matt (#36):
I see nothing in the nature of male-female friendship that requires it to end once one member dates or marries. It certainly doesn't have to. I have maintained close friendships with a number of my male friends before and after they got married. I am friends with their spouses (or were friends with them to begin with). These men make their wives their highest relational priority, and their friendship with women does nothing to negate this.
For my life, the friendships that fell away were the ones I had in high school (male and female, Christian or not), and the friendships that have endured are the ones I formed in college. I am not offering this as a paradigm for all, merely a counter-narrative to the one the speaker you mention describes. How impoverished my life would be if I lived it according to his vision! There have always been, and there will always be, good friendships between men and women in the Christian community, as there should be.
47. a sassy sister said the following at 7:44 AM on Apr 10
tara:
what I am talking about is allowing your friendships to take up so much of your time that they are not only crowding out a healthy relationship with God, but they're being put on a par level of equality with God in that you put your total trust in the friendship and not in God. When you do this dance of how many relationships one should or should not have, then you get into legalism.
I am not advocating trying to be close to any and everyone, but I do believe that there should be a healthy balance of male and female friends, and that there is nothing wrong with having a close male friend or a close female friend with boundaries. Frankly, healthy relationships should have boundaries, and I believe that the reason why we sometimes have problems with the friend zone is because there were no boundaries enforced to begin with. Men and women both know what triggers attraction for them as far as intimacy is concerned in friendships, so I'm not going to say what the line is, because that varies per person.
Matt:
I apologize I misunderstood your post. But simply put, when you start telling people that "deep personal opposite sex relationships" are not a good use of time, I think that speaks to something deeper. There is a difference between acting like all women have cooties and then being a hormonal, ravenous beast.
48. Tara said the following at 3:47 PM on Apr 10
That makes more sense so thanks for the explanation, a sassy sister. :) Yes, I agree we should not put the same value and trust in our human relationships as we would in our relationship with God.
In regards to your other point: I think I see what you're saying but I would argue that friendships with the opposite sex would require more boundaries. It's not just about avoiding your own temptation but also not hurting the hearts of those around you. It's not about the legalism of it, but rather, building a set of values and characteristics that hopefully mirror the heart of Christ. There's great freedom in that.
49. BDB said the following at 5:45 PM on Apr 10
End Italic
50. Jo said the following at 9:04 AM on Apr 11
Katie B #42 -
If there's no problem, there's no problem. As I mentioned I have male friends who have expressed interest in me in the past. I would understand if THEY wanted to back off, but I'm not going to assume it's necessary. If they find it hard to stay in the friendship it's their responsibility to say so. I don't mean that coldly, and if I suspected there was an issue I would ask. But with my friends I have no reason to believe that's the case.
Matt #36 -
Male/female friendships can continue after marriage. I see no reason why they shouldn't. In my current position, I am single and therefore am happy to meet with my male friends one-to-one, there is no question of these meetings being dates and the nature of the relationship is clear.
If I was not single, this might not be appropriate, but my friendship with them would certainly not end. Boundaries are the issue and those probably vary from person to person. I would be happy for my husband to have female friends. I wouldn't be so happy if he was meeting with a female friend regularly one-to-one. Those are the kinds of issues that need to be navigated in any relationship, but I wouldn't stay with a guy who believed I was no longer entitled to have meaningful friendships of any kind with other men.
51. Richard said the following at 1:55 PM on Jul 12
Well, I have to say I have lots of platonic friendships, and none of them have been awkward or uncomfortable.
I think as long as you make your intentions clear of what you want in a relationshp, there won't be any confusion.