The Effect of Church on Men: Episode #9
by
Motte Brown
on Mar 21, 2008 at 6:00 PM
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Following the chat we have part two of our interview with Kurt Bruner, spiritual formation pastor of Lake Point Church. In this segment, Kurt discusses the benefits of serving in ways that stretch your comfort zone. It's part of choosing the sort of conflict we talked about last week that's vital to conforming to Christ. Convicting.
And you might think Brad Wilcox is a Boundless plant in our culture segment but he's not -- well, not really. He was visiting Focus on the Family and here Lisa asks him about what young single men and women should be doing to prepare for marriage and family.
For The Inbox this week we have a question from a woman who's giving her young adult life to God on the mission field in Nigeria. The thing is, she wants to get married too. And the prospects are slim while in country. So what to do? Well, Steve and Candice Watters provide some encouraging words along with some practical advice.
Here are the segment breaks for this week:
Intro
Roundtable -- 6:02
Culture -- 17:22
Inbox -- 28:08
And, can I just end by saying that I love Salvador? They've allowed us to use their music again and I can't get enough of it. It really adds a lot to the show, doesn't it? So thanks guys.
Thanks for the reminder about the links Adam T. Here is the podcast homepage where you have the option to listen now or subscribe through RSS or download the MP3. Or if you prefer, just click the podcast icon at the top of the page and it'll take you to our iTunes homepage.
1. Adam T. had the following to say on Mar 21 at 6:07 PM:
Do you guys wanna maybe have a permanent link to the MP3 archives, maybe at the top of the page with the other links? (Please? :) )
2. Marc had the following to say on Mar 21 at 10:41 PM:
As always, I really love and learn a lot from the podcasts. That having been said, I really enjoy listening to "The Hungry Years" section and was midly dissapointed that it was not included in this episdoe. So, in regards to "T.H.Y.", please keep 'em coming.
3. Christina had the following to say on Mar 22 at 10:41 AM:
"We play monopoly"
"for 10 hours"
That made me giggle...
I really liked what was said about the proactive side of dating. It makes sense. About the women in careers, what kind of a career or degree wouldn't intimidate a man? I know they like intelligence, but is there a limit of that? Or is it the attitude that accompanies intelligence that is the main concern? Is it possible to be attractive when high intelligence and an intimidating major and career is balanced with a humble attitude?
4. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 22 at 12:17 PM:
Christina:
It's possible, but there is a caveat. Intimidation is probably not the right word, as I cannot say I know men who are afraid of career-minded women.
On the other hand, I'll speak for myself here. I don't want a woman who is more likely to put her career before me and/or the kids. A high-flying career type is not so much an intimidation as she is a turn-off: someone who rejects my values. Such a one can be my friend but not my wife.
Certain careers tend to inspire certain types of behavior (aggressive, take-charge, high-authority). Examples abound all over the corporate world, in particular law, investment banking, public accounting, and management in public companies. Places where prestige and power are addictive and the behavior that gains them is highly-rewarded.
This is not a putdown against women who pursue careers; all I'm saying is count the cost. When you are 17, 18, 19 years old, you think you have an infinite amount of time. Sadly, you don't have nearly as much time as you think you do.
To the woman who is considering going for the high-flying career today and settling down "later", consider the reality:
(1) Success in that pursuit will cost you your best childbearing years. Assuming you get out of college at age 22, it will take you 4 or 5 years to really get entrenched in a career. If you pursue medicine, you won't start practicing on your own until you're about 30. For a lawyer, you can count on being well into your late 20s before you really get established. During that time you will not have a life.
(2) During that time, you may have a very difficult time finding a husband due to (a) the stress of work and (b) the Christian men interested in full-time career women is not as high as one might think. Who wants to date or marry a woman who works 70 hours a week racking up billable hours for a law firm? I want someone with whom who can share my life.
(3) If you get addicted to the career pursuit--and many do--you may not decide to "settle down" until long after it is too late. I know someone in her 50s--a VERY successful and wealthy attorney--who is in that boat. She would gladly trade her wealth to be younger, married to a Christian guy, have some children, and struggle to pay bills while homeschooling.
(4) Even if she decides to settle down at 29--which sounds nice on paper--the math is still tricky because the biological clock is inside the proverbial 2-minute warning. So she's now in a rush to (a) find someone to date, (b) get to know him, (c) get engaged, (d) get married, (e) then have children. What happens when you run into a guy who isn't marriageable?
At that point, you're back to the drawing board and that puts more pressure on you. What happens on the next guy? He may be a nice guy with some HUGE red flags. You may find yourself "settling" too close to the edge, making riskier choices than you would have made at 25 or 26.
Are such marriages workable? Absolutely, as long as both are Christian. But I make no apologies for insisting that this full-time career-woman business ain't all it's cracked up to be.
5. BDB had the following to say on Mar 22 at 5:11 PM:
Christina (#3) wrote:
>>Is it possible to be attractive when high intelligence and an intimidating major and career is balanced with a humble attitude?<<
Sure.
I know a woman who is quite smart, has her graduate degree...but is very hard on people. She could go on for hours bashing people for being stupid. But in four years, I don't remember her ever giving anyone else a compliment.
But I know some other people that make it a discipline to look for things to compliment. They are always paying attention to what people do well, if a shirt looks good on someone, etc. Even better is when they realize where their own strenghts and weaknesses are - and compliment others who are stronger than they are in specific areas. That really makes people more comfortable - they know they bring something to the table.
6. Christina had the following to say on Mar 22 at 9:16 PM:
Well, that's encouraging...
I ask cuz I'm a math major working as an engineer...
I am intelligent, I love talking about deep subjects, am very opinionated, and people have told me i come off as intimidating.
I have strong leadership capabilities while I shun the idea of management positions (which drives my managers nuts when they suggest my pursuing higher level positions).
I'm not interested in career but I guess I come off as such...without a guy even trying to get to know me. So...given what you guys know from what I wrote above, would I come off as intimidating?
7. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 23 at 12:39 PM:
Christina:
I would not find you intimidating, for this reason: while you are in a professional career, it is not your ambition to be a high-flyer. (You have stated yourself that you do not aspire to it.)
On the other hand, if you had communicated a desire to have a full-time professional career even if you had a husband and children, the red flags would be flying very high.
Again, I say this with the caveat that I am speaking only for myself and not necessarily for all guys.
8. BDB had the following to say on Mar 23 at 4:40 PM:
Christina (#6) wrote:
>>So...given what you guys know from what I wrote above, would I come off as intimidating?<<
Well, I'm good at math, so not to me...integration is great but it has it's limits.
You can learn a lot from management jobs, if they're offering, you should consider it/pray about it. And since you've mentioned a few times how much you'd like to be married, here's some unsolicited ideas: You can always stuff the extra money into savings so you can afford to be a SAHM later on if you want - by buying and paying off a car for example. With a Math degree you can always teach math part time at a Christian school - very compatible with motherhood. You may even want to prepare for that route by looking into the math teacher credentialing programs for your state.
I once went to a wedding where all the bridesmaids were engineers. It was executed flawlessly.
At one point the pastor started talking about how Gold was the purest metal known to man, and how that was an example of the purity of love, etc. etc.
The thing was, the maid of honor was a chemical engineer. So at the reception I asked her, "So, is gold the purest metal known to man?" And she burst out laughing - "I can't believe he said that! It's an alloy in a ring!"
But she was gracious enough not to rub the pastor's lack of chemistry knowledge in his face...
9. Fred Walker had the following to say on Mar 23 at 7:03 PM:
Christina,
It depends whether by 'very opinionated' you mean arrogant and aggressive or assertive. Otherwise you don't really sound intimidating.
I think with intelligence it goes both ways, I'm not sure too many women would be comfortable with a man they were clearly smarter than.
But it's also not as simple as intelligence, it's in what areas. I know couples where the woman is smarter than the man but not in the man's area (whatever that may be).
10. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 23 at 8:06 PM:
Christina:
Personally, I think a math major--with good leadership qualities--would be a perfect candidate to be a homeschooling mom. If a guy is looking for that, you should be VERY marriageable.
You might mention that to those weak-kneed men in your Bible study. If they need a boot in the pants, I might even be able to help you out. LOL
Of course, on a different note, I don't know you personally, but--as an opinionated person myself--I know I've been shot down over that admirable quality.
As a certain Presidential candidate once said in 1992: "Ah feel yo pain!"
11. Christina (in green) had the following to say on Mar 24 at 6:55 AM:
Thanks you guys =p
12. Louise had the following to say on Mar 24 at 7:31 AM:
Re comment #5, I have never met BDB's overly critical friend, but a tendency to always criticize and never compliment is often an indication of low self esteem.
BDB, could this be the case?
13. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 24 at 10:15 AM:
Louise: That can certainly be the case. I'm not BDB, but this is what I've seen many times in the workplace...
(1) Let's say John Doe is a web designer for your organization.
(2) Let's say your organization hires a new webmaster. John had also interviewed for that position.
(3) That webmaster comes in with lofty expectations; John irritated that she got picked over him, and feels he was better-qualified.
If John is not careful, that irritation becomes envy, and he could find himself so enraged that it becomes almost impossible for him to acknowledge any positive thing about that new webmaster.
(This makes John's opinion irrelevant. After all, if I cannot do anything right in your eyes, then why should I care what you have to say to me?)
Moreover, when there are conflicts--which arise even in a good situation, you find the hostility escalated by an order of magnitude, as John feels perfectly justified in his self-righteous anger. (That is self-deception of the Jeremiah 17:9 variety.)
Such folks are very difficult to work with, and anyone--who is not careful to check motives--can fall into that trap.
14. a sassy sister had the following to say on Mar 24 at 11:19 AM:
I have to agree with you, with a caveat:
sometimes as people we fail to realize how our deep insecurities and fears manifest themselves in our relationships with others, and sometimes it is also the result of the environment that a person grew up in. You do what you know and learn, whether you are aware of it or not.
15. Lynne had the following to say on Mar 24 at 1:26 PM:
I have a questions for Amir,
I understand your reasoning and choices for choosing a woman who would be a compatible wife with you. What I'm wondering is, do you hold those same standards for men you mentioned in #4? I understand men aren't bound by the biological clock the same way women are, but what about the delaying marriage, working long hours, etc.?
Hope this isn't coming across as snide, I'd just like to hear more about what you think
Thanks
16. BDB had the following to say on Mar 24 at 2:04 PM:
Louise (#12) wrote:
>>but a tendency to always criticize and never compliment is often an indication of low self esteem.<<
Personally, I try to avoid using that term because I think it's become too much of a catch-all. Everything is blamed on poor self-esteem these days. I increasingly believe that "self esteem" movement is an attempt to gloss over our fallen sinful nature.
The individual in question is actually quite good at work and (alas) quite good at partying. But she is not good at conflict resolution, and feels no confidence in this area. The result is demanding performance of herself and her staff, and harsh criticism of those who can't keep up with her work ethic.
The general lesson I take is that people of high intelligence have difficulty when they get impatient with those who can't understand a situation as quickly as they can. The solution for the smart person is to seek patience and kindness in their words, a la Galations 5:22.
17. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 24 at 2:23 PM:
Lynne asks:
No offense taken at all.
To answer the question, though, as we say in engineering: the answer is often it depends...
For one thing, if the man is expected to be the primary breadwinner, then it actually makes more sense for him to first get established in a career or trade before marrying. After all, she would be right to expect him to establish a record of personal responsibility.
That is not an excuse for him to intentionally "put off" marriage and family, but rather my articulation for why--even for a man who aspires to family life--it could make more sense mathematically to marry a couple years later than she might.
As for biological clocks, it is a scientific fact: men are not facing the same hourglass effect that women are, although the man's risks are not zero either.
And yes, it is fair for her to question whether the man will put career before her. If he is wanting to climb that corporate ladder, then she may want to consider the impact.
If that is not something she is ready to handle, she might want to pull the chute and move on to someone more compatible. The best divorces happen before the wedding...
Even still, on the career angle, the dynamic is different. On one hand, someone has to be the primary breadwinner.
On the other hand, it is fair for her to expect him to make reasonable sacrifices, giving up some things that he once enjoyed in bachelorhood for the sake of her and the kids. I have hobbies, for example, that I would trade for family life. She would be right to expect that, too.
Let's return to the mathematical angle for a second, though. Consider this: if her childbearing years are very finite, then does it make sense for her to go to college for 4 years--running up student debts potentially--for a career that she may want to exit 4 or 5 years after that?
Like I said, I'm not saying don't pursue a career, but rather count the cost. We are not--in general--doing a good job teaching that part of math to teens.
As a result, many men and women are heading into adulthood thinking they can have it all, and are trying to have it all, and are finding themselves well into their 30s, unmarried, childless, miserable, and the best the church can seem to do is fall back on platitudes or excoriate them altogether, even though the Church helped foster the culture that allowed this problem to foment.
18. farmer Tom had the following to say on Mar 24 at 9:12 PM:
6. Christina had the following to say,
would I come off as intimidating?
I'm totally serious here, I've never met a woman who I thought was intimidating. Irritating, exasperating, frustrating, aggravating, and even captivating but never intimidating. Here's why. Because for a woman to be intimidating she has to invoke a fear response in me. And frankly I simply find it very hard to fear any woman.
Some trade on their sexuality to exert control over men. That doesn't work with me since I'm so ugly and unappealing that if a woman is attempting to use that weapon on me it is patently obvious that she wants something, so I consider myself in a position of power, because she wants something from me.
Some women try to use bravado to invoke fear in men, trying to intimidate men. I find this highly amusing and would likely laugh in the womans face. The general response to the laughter is anger. And I then know how to control this woman, simply make her angry.
Some try to exude power by attempting to display their mental aptitude. I consider these women to be unsure of themselves desperate to prove their worth by showing their intellectual superiority. Again, I am not intimidated because this approach smacks of desperation. And obvious attempt to prove their superiority by flaunting their mental prowess. BTW, I rarely run into anybody male or female who intimidates me in that arena.
So if your worried about intimidating the guys Christina, forget about that and worry more about whether you are Irritating, exasperating, frustrating, aggravating, and even captivating
19. Ellie had the following to say on Mar 24 at 9:53 PM:
I am so tired of the whole "Easter comes from Ishtar thing. It does not, it comes from a Germanic goddess. Please note that the word for Easter in all languages that originated in any kind of geographic closeness to Mesopotamia (the area that Ishtar was recognized in) do not use a variation of Ishtar as the root of Easter.
From the Oxfored English Dictionary (OED):
[OE. éastre wk. fem. = OHG. ôstara; more freq. in plural éastron, corresponding to OHG. ôstoron (MHG., mod.G. ostern pl.); the strong forms occas. appearing seem to have been derived from the combining form éastor-. Bæda Temp. Rat. xv. derives the word from Eostre (Northumb. spelling of Éastre), the name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox; her name (:OTeut. *austrôn- cogn. w. Skr. usr dawn; see EAST) shows that she was originally the dawn-goddess.]
1. a. One of the great festivals of the Christian Church, commemorating the resurrection of Christ, and corresponding to the Jewish passover, the name of which it bears in most of the European langs. (Gr. , ad. Heb. pésa, L. pascha, Fr. Pâques, It. Pasqua, Sp. Pascua, Du. pask). According to the modern rule it is observed on the first Sunday after the calendar full mooni.e. ‘not the actual full moon, but the 14th day of the calendar moon’ (Bp. Butcher)which happens on or next after 21 March. In ordinary language Easter is often applied to the entire week commencing with Easter Sunday.
20. Eliza had the following to say on Mar 25 at 12:38 PM:
farmer Tom,
It doesn't sound like you've ever met a truly confident, powerful woman. Everything you've described as alleged strengths are really weaknesses, as you've said. Any woman who is actually intelligent, articulate and secure is not going to need to "exude" or force any kind of bravado or excess sexuality. She has no need to display anything, since she doesn't care what anyone else thinks about her. She is happy with who she is and where she's going. Some people find that intimidating, because they don't have it themselves.
21. BDB had the following to say on Mar 25 at 12:51 PM:
farmer Tom (#18) wrote:
>>I consider these women to be unsure of themselves desperate to prove their worth by showing their intellectual superiority.<<
Christina (in green) that reminds me, you might want to stick with guys near your educational level, who actually comprehend that being able to talk about ideas is simply how educated people discuss he world. Sometimes the less-educated think that you're trying to show off. You might find it more pleasant to be with people who enjoy ideas.
All people have strengths and weaknesses. You wouldn't want me working on a jet engine, for example. Or planting genetically modified crops.
22. Bryan Hall had the following to say on Mar 25 at 5:43 PM:
In your last podcast (episode 8) Kurt Bruner spoke on videogame addiction and his book Playstation Nation. As the podcast drew to a close, Kurt had begun talking about how videogames cause a disembodiment of the soul. I found this quite interesting. However, the conversation was never finished! Episode 9 was supposed to resume the conversation with Kurt, which it did, but the concept of the "disembodied soul" was never again discussed. As a Christian who is trying to use videogames as a bridge to preach the Gospel, I would have liked to have heard Kurt elaborate more on this issue. I guess there is always his book though...
23. Will had the following to say on Mar 26 at 3:59 AM:
I love so much of the Boundless stuff...but was a little concerned about the inference that women should dumb themselves down to not intimidate men who may be potential marriage partners. Ok, so they may become less intimidating to a few guys, but I would contend that they are at the same time making themselves less attractive to men who have similar interests!
24. Will Neil had the following to say on Mar 26 at 4:08 AM:
Btw, this blog is really hard to follow. Eg.no threads. There may be a better format?
25. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 26 at 9:04 AM:
Will says:
Who said anything about "dumb themselves down"? You're eisegeting, not exegeting, what is being said here.
Fact is, a Christian man is going to be generally less-inclined to pursue a woman who insists on both full-time career AND full-time wife/motherhood. Once the first child arrives, the man is generally going to at least want her to go back to part-time status on the career.
Moreover, the way she communicates her professional ambitions is less an "imtimidation" but is potentially a risk of communicating a rejection of traditional values. Christian men--at least the ones I know--tend to be traditional values types.
Like I said, this is not to imply that a woman ought not pursue a full-time career. I'm very much the libertarian here. Whatever floats her boat, that's her business.
All I'm saying is she needs to count the cost. And yes...there is a cost involved.
That's the part that is usually missing in the discussion.
26. Katie B had the following to say on Mar 26 at 10:39 AM:
Christina, maybe you are intimidating, but as farmer tom mentioned, intimidation involves invoking the fear response. Would you want a guy who is scared of you? that ultimately reflects much more on the guy than on you, its not that you are intimidating, but that he is too easily intimidated.
I have found myself approached by a few guys who seemed or confessed to being intimidated, but that never turns out well, they either werent ready to be the man in the relationship, or wanted to be mothered, or guided, or whatever.
If I am smart, opinionated, and a capable leader, I dont just want a man to be comfortable with that, but match it, at the least, give the guys time, they get there on there own.