Let's Talk About Dating, Part 1: Be Realistic
by Denise Morris on 03/10/2008 at 3:24 PM
So Suzanne and I have decided to do a series on The Line in which we impart all of our wisdom about dating and relationships. (It'll be a short series.)
I'll cover the first issue, so here goes: be realistic.
Because of our culture and the romanticized version of relationships we see in the movies, I think it's easy to get caught up in an unrealistic idea of what love and romance should look like. Girls get accused of having these false expectations a lot-- and they do -- but guys are guilty of it as well.
Because of Hollywood's influence, it's easy for me to believe that the perfect guy will fall into my lap at any moment. He will be gorgeous, smart, funny, well-educated, entertaining and enjoy all the same things I do. He will love me perfectly and bring out the best in me every single day. I think the danger in this attitude is being on the lookout for this person and ignoring anyone who doesn't fit each of these qualifications. This attitude, I believe, will only set me up for disappointment.
First of all, people are people. No one -– including me and you -- is all that great. We all fail and we all have shortcomings. Honestly, I'm never going to find someone who is completely perfect. I do want to be with someone who I work well with and whom I love, but it's important to be realistic when it comes to what I can live with and live without.
Secondly, I think it's important to give people the benefit of the doubt. Most of my girl friends and I are willing to go on at least one date with a guy if he asks (as long as he meets the basic expectations -- loves the Lord, doesn't eat bugs, and so on). We do this because 1) the guy had the guts to actually ask us out, which is awesome. It seems to be rare among lots of guys these days, so we should give them credit when they go for it. 2) You never know what you'll find out when you give someone a chance. He just may surprise you.
Guys, I think you should do the same. Be willing to ask a girl out even if she doesn't meet every expectation you've set up in your mind. Does she want to be more like Jesus? Is she kind? Is she enjoyable to be around? All of these are great reasons to consider getting to know this girl better. It may be scary, but it's worth doing.
Most importantly, I've realized that I need be realistic about love. Those romantic feelings will come and go, which is why much of true love is a choice I have to make. The Bible reinforces this idea in the picture we see of love between God and the chosen nation of Israel. The people of Israel were always running around being unlovable, but God did it anyway -- He kept His promise and loved her even when they didn't deserve it. I think we should work on approaching dating and marriage the same way -- we should choose to love one another because we want to be more like Jesus -- no matter what the other person is doing.
I recently began to pray for God to bring me the man He wants me to love unconditionally -- whatever that may look like. It's a scary prayer. I don't like it. But I realized that so much of my prayers for a husband had to do with someone who would love me, who would make me happy, who would fulfill me. Yes, I hope God brings me someone who will do all those things, but my attitude should be more about how I can serve and love someone, not what they can do for me.
Anyway, Suzanne will follow up later this week with another tidbit of advice. Until then, discuss away.
1. Jo said the following at 3:45 PM on Mar 10:
I completely agree. But I don't know how to put this into practice.
I decided recently that the important initial things I want in a guy right now could be narrowed down to five: Christian, single, right age, musical, reasonably attractive. I decided that on the rare occasions I meet a guy who ticks all these boxes, I would investigate further, even if there wasn't a huge spark or whatever. That way I figured, I could be realistic, 'intentional', open myself up to possibilities and pray for God's will before real feelings ever developed. It was foolproof.
Following experiment #1, however, I'm not so sure. I made the effort, contacted this guy again, struck up a conversation, got to know him a little, and all was going fairly well. I hadn't really decided how I felt about him yet and was just 'seeing how it went'...
Then he goes and gets himself a girlfriend, and I'm... disappointed.
Why?????
It seems that if I make the effort like that I develop feelings where feelings may not otherwise have occurred. Which then leaves me open to unnecessary heartache from guys who never would have mattered that much to me had I not chosen to see them in that way. Now I'm thinking, how many more guys am I going to have this experience with? And is it really worth it?
2. Justice said the following at 3:53 PM on Mar 10:
Denise,
You should be scared, I just saw Shweck on my campus carrying a sign asking about your whereabouts.
;)
3. Jeni said the following at 3:55 PM on Mar 10:
I appreciated this post. It's a good reminder. Being realistic is very important. People are all very, very human and we do all have shortcomings. I know I have quite a few weaknesses and I'm hoping that some grace can be extended to me, so I attempt to extend grace to the men I meet.
Most of my friends would go out on a date with a man who asked too. It takes a lot of courage to ask a person out for a date and that courage should be honored with a a "yes".
Um - and as a side note - married people should wear their wedding rings and not flirt with the singles they meet. Not wearing a wedding ring suggests single status and is NOT realistic if a person is married. And seriously, what are married Christians doing not wearing their wedding rings!?!?!
4. Tara said the following at 4:27 PM on Mar 10:
I'm only a couple months into my first real relationship so I'm still discovering the reality of romance versus Hollywood's version. My conclusion thus far is Hollywood stinks at concocting visions of romance. Reality doesn't come with a soft-focus, poetry (necessarily...depends on the man, I suppose) or a smaltzy soundtrack but that's a good thing! I could never ever live up to the expectations set up by Hollywood and I'm not just referring to looks. The wit, the charm, the vivacious personality...not me at all! And I feel the perfection in the Hollywood heros would be too intimidating. It's alot of fun trying to grow together through our miscommunications (men really are from Mars...) and laugh at our own ackwardness. It didn't take too long to find each other's quirks and hang-ups.
But being a new romance I haven't really had to put the unconditional love into practice yet and that is scary! I'm going to have to rely on God for that as I don't think I'm all that gracious on my own.
5. Jacob said the following at 4:32 PM on Mar 10:
Thanks for writing about this. Having realistic expectations has been a pet-peeve of mine for the last two years or so. There is no way any of us can compete with the idealized 25 year old volunteer fire-fighter and seminary student whose spiritual insight and maturity is equal to John Piper.
Here's one for the peanut gallery: how reasonable is it for me to expect a moderate to high interest in intellectual endeavors?
6. kaj said the following at 4:33 PM on Mar 10:
Jeni (comment #3),
I know of some legitimate reasons why some Christians may not wear a wedding ring at a given time.
In regards to wedding rings, I have known of some Christians who choose not to wear a ring because they don't believe in wearing jewelry at all. They claim that verses such as 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3-4, support their decision.
Some Christians I know claim that the whole origin of the wedding ring is pagan, and they, in good conscience, do not want anything to do with pagan practices.
I have also heard of some people giving up their rings (among other jewelry) to finance a project at church; it was a means of sacrifice.
Sometimes, a married person may not wear a ring because it could be to protect it from a messy project, such as painting, or for safety reasons, such as when operating some machinery.
Others may have it off because of allergies to the metals in the ring, or it needs to be resized first.
Whatever their reasons, I will not judge. The Bible mentions rings of all kinds, but is silent on wedding rings.
Having said that, a married person, wearing a ring or not, flirting with someone other than the spouse is uncalled for.
I admit, I have observed plenty of men who are attractive on the outside and the inside (i.e., character). But seeing the wedding ring on the finger is enough to stop me in my tracks from forming crushes on such men, let alone it reminds me to respect their marriages and treat them in a way that their wives (and God) would approve.
Once I find out a person is married, regardless of what jewelry he wears, I know that I must respect his marriage, even if he is not respecting his by his conduct, and treat him in a way that his wife and God would approve of.
(Perhaps, too, if men had some sort of engagement ring, that could be helpful so as to know that he's already committing to another woman!)
7. Sylvia said the following at 4:47 PM on Mar 10:
I'm sure this is the problem with some people, but it sure isn't the problem I see the most!
More often I see the opposite, people who really want to get married who fall for people they are not going to be able to get along with. Women, especially, will give the benefit of the doubt, when they would be better off taking certain things as warning signs. I see this scenario far far more.
I think that a lot of the people who are "unrealistic" as is described in this article are people who have many times ignored things that worried them at the beginnings of relationships only to have those things come at them in a very powerful painful way. I can definitely see how this would make a girl more likely to listen to her gut on these things and not mess around with guys that don't seem to pass the husband- material primaries.
I'm misunderstanding?
8. Lisa said the following at 5:15 PM on Mar 10:
I thought this was an excellent post.
Jeni, I once had a pastor who was a European, and he didn't wear a wedding ring. Some cultures don't. An acquaintance of mine in college married an Asian woman-he gave her a bracelet instead of a ring. Don't know if this was because of the culture, or not. Maybe she just preferred a bracelet.
Jo, I can really empathize with you in your situation. In my opinion, at least you can take comfort from the fact that you are trying to give people a chance. If it gets too painful for you, you can always take a break from the approach. When I met my husband, I didn't have to do anything except be receptive. He called me every night when we were dating, and I didn't have to worry or wonder whether or not he was going to call, not once. That's just me--I'm not trying to say that this is the only way to do things. I know a lady with almost a 35 year marriage who called her husband up to ask him out for their first date.
One more thing--From reading some of these threads, I've gotten the impression, maybe I'm wrong, but I've gotten the impression that for a lot of Christians-divorce is practically the unforgivable sin. This lady I referred to above, her husband of 35+ years was divorced from his first wife. His first wife literally abandoned him. He did everything he could possibly do to try to save the marriage, but she walked out anyway. Like I said, they now have a child and a successful marriage because she was willing to give him a chance. When I was dating, I would never have rejected a divorced man just because I knew he was divorced. Usually I could find out on the first date or so the reasons behind the divorce, and go from there. I know that some have said that they don't want to make the effort to "sort out all the baggage" but, I don't know. Sometimes I think it can be worth the effort.
9. BDB said the following at 5:56 PM on Mar 10:
Jacob (#5) wrote:
>>Here's one for the peanut gallery: how reasonable is it for me to expect a moderate to high interest in intellectual endeavors? <<
Quite reasonable, especially if you meet someone in graduate school. Or a philosophy class.
This post makes me think of conversations I had with a couple of friends long before they actually became engaged. They had to wrestle with the strengths - and weaknesses - of a specific person. I spent a few hours in conversation with them on this subject, as they weighed what life would mean. It wasn't discussing feelings or giddyness. It was thinking through what life would and would not mean with this specific person.
Both went on to marry that person, a couple of years later in each case. They've both been successfully married for several years now. But their intellectual process of coming to grips with the reality of a specific person is so dramatically different than what most single people talk about with their "list" of attributes...it's a wonder anyone gets married.
10. Sara said the following at 6:02 PM on Mar 10:
What I don't get is why so many girls are called on to wear True Love Waits jewellery, whereas no guys do. I don't think it takes much from a girl to wear it (if anything, it's a sort of badge of honor, and can be a good excuse to get a nice ring or something), whereas, society being what it is, for guys it would actually be a real sacrifice.
11. Amir Larijani said the following at 6:51 PM on Mar 10:
Great post, Denise. I couldn't agree more.
12. k. said the following at 7:03 PM on Mar 10:
Jo -- Well, that approach ("before real feelings ever develop") will only work if you're a robot. :) We're human, we have feelings, and we relate to others based on our feelings.
While you're single and looking, consider staying open to several different possibilities at once. Don't start limiting your focus to just one too quickly. That way, if Guy #1 doesn't work out for whatever reason, you're able to move on and keep things in perspective.
And yes...finding the right one is ABSOLUTELY worth it. :)
13. DannieA said the following at 7:03 PM on Mar 10:
As with Sylvia #7
I have to say 'Unrealistic' falls into two categories
1. The ones that wait for Hollywood endings and don't take time to get to know good guys here
2. The ones that go out with any guy and then to be 'realistic' ignore warning signs...due to several facts.
I just broke up with a guy this weekend, because although he took initiative and asked me out...there were definate red flags...including always having to defend why I would not sleep with him (even though he claims he's a good christian)...I had fun with this guy, but I know there were definate warnings that I could not ignore...
maybe you all could write about that as a follow-up?
When not to take realistic to an unhealthy level?
While the desire for marriage is real for many of us in our late 20s and hitting the 30s...how can we be realistic, yet not desperate?
thanks for the article...there is truth in it :)
14. Nicole said the following at 8:09 PM on Mar 10:
Excellent post!! It's so easy to get caught up in the "Hollywood" version of love. I remember hearing a quote once saying that marriage is just a lifelong (albiet covenanted) friendship, so you better make sure you can be friends when the "warm fuzzy lovey-doveys" fade. :) Thanks for the reminder to focus on the important stuff when searching for the right one!!
15. DanL said the following at 8:25 PM on Mar 10:
I’m sorry, but as I guy I don’t understand this whole thing with going on one date with someone just because they asked you out. I suspect this is how I got most of my dates because I’ve only once managed to get to a second date. It leaves me really confused when I’ve known someone for a year or more, and think I now them reasonably well, and I then I ask them out and have dinner once, and then they don’t want to go out again. Did I make such a dofuss out of myself in couple hours that it completely undid what they knew of me in the year or more got to know each other? If you know you aren’t interested in someone, please don’t get their hopes up my going out them once.
16. Martha said the following at 8:30 PM on Mar 10:
As a long-married person who has seen a couple of my friends' marriages disintegrate, I'd like to offer two thoughts.
One,you don't need to have fireworks or "love at first sight" on the first date, or the second. But I would recommend to both women and men that as you get to know a person, make sure it's someone you can respect highly. If they don't fit that role, it's going to cause problems down the road.
Two, in answer to Jacob's question: If intellectual pursuits are important to you, and you expect that to remain as part of your life, yes, I think it's important to find someone who shares or at least appreciates and understands your interests. After raising four kids together, one man I knew moved out on his wife in their later years, partly because she had no interest in his intellectual interests (his career), and they had too little in common.
17. Suzi said the following at 8:31 PM on Mar 10:
Hello! First of all great blog!
i think this is a really interesting topic u've got there.
I have been going through an exact situation in my relationship with someone.
After my boyfriend and I went out for several months, he claims that i did not meet his expectations and thus he feels that he can't love me anymore. Moreover, he claims that he has lost his love for me and so he asked for a break up. I tried to make him realize that the "feeling of love" will come and go, but he just feels like that God has taken away the feelings for a reason, so it is best that we part ways. I did not like the decision but it seemed like nothing i said could have changed the situation, so i gratned him his wish(that is an act of love too i guess) Now i am left feeling angry and miserable, sometimes even at God for putting this mistake in my life.
18. Laura said the following at 8:41 PM on Mar 10:
Sylvia, girl, I agree! Let's have that as a follow up to this article!!
Jacob, it's not unreasonable at all -- it's amazing, but not unreasonable. I met far too many men at seminary who seemed to be looking not for a "helper suitable" but for a girl who will tell them every day, "Oh baby, everything you say is just SO smart! I could never be as smart as you!"
BDB, I agree that we spend far too much energy on the emotional aspect of a relationship (or a potential relationship) and too little time doing the hard work of figuring out whether or not this person is a good match! A friend of mine has recently begun dating a young man, and she's working through that right now. Thank God she hasn't been swept away by infatuation and is able to keep a level head.
19. Suzi said the following at 9:15 PM on Mar 10:
I hope this comment isn't totally off topic, but i just like to put this on the table as i believe this is a crucial question to Christian dating.
Did God designate only one person for each of us? (So he has chosen for two people to be together before they were even born) or are there a number of people out there that God will allow us to become the one with? (So as long as we stay in the sheep's pan, dating Christians then we are fine?)
Because i feel in the blog you are saying that we have to work on every relationship, even if there are flaws in the other person. Does that imply that you think God gave us that ONE person, so we have to work with them?
If that is the case, how do we know who is the one? because we will for sure get irritated by our partner in any/every relationship, but how do we know who to carry on with and who to break because ultimately they are not the one for us?
And what about people who always say that "if it is meant to be" or "if it is in God's will" if there are more than 1 person that we can be with then there will not be meant to be or not right?
20. Fay said the following at 9:17 PM on Mar 10:
I'm absolutely agree to this post... meanwhile I'm still to figuring out what's right to do when it comes to the matter of the heart...
I just break up with my boyfriend, we had a plan for marriage before. I accepted him the way he was (being realistic), but he didn't accept me the way I was... Right now I just wanna let go of my past 'n memories with him. It's hard to deal with 2 feelings at a time, one wants to hate him, while another still care for him. Hhh... love, it's too complicated...
Jo - I've been through the same experience... But don't loose hope... coz somehow God won't be lack of ways to give us His best blessings in everything include in love life. And hey, we're not alone after all ;-p
21. Anna said the following at 9:20 PM on Mar 10:
I agree with DannieA (#13) that being TOO "realistic" is as dangerous as being too idealistic. I spent almost 18 months in a relationship where both of us gave 100% and we were still both unhappy 80% of the time. I thought that since there were no obvious deal-breakers (he was a Christian, not a serial killer, etc), ending the relationship simply because of incompatibility would be "taking the easy way out," so I tried and kept trying to make it work even though we were completely wrong for each other. I'm grateful that he finally ended the relationship, because I probably never would have.
I think warnings against the world's brand of "use-em-and-lose-em" relationships run the risk of going to the other extreme and implying that sheer incompatibility is never a good enough reason to end a relationship. Love, patience, and acceptance are all virtues we should strive for, but so is discernment.
22. Stephen Kloosterman said the following at 9:26 PM on Mar 10:
"Most of my girl friends and I are willing to go on at least one date with a guy if he asks (as long as he meets the basic expectations -- loves the Lord, doesn't eat bugs, and so on)."
-- Well, that's precious.
There's nothing that moment halfway through a sympathy date when you realize the girl has decided she's put up with as much nerdiness as a self-respecting, American-Eagle-wearing girl ought to, and that you're making all of the conversation.
At that point in the evening I usually go ahead and order fried grasshoppers, as I always do.
23. Mike said the following at 10:03 PM on Mar 10:
This is in response to DannieA:
You deserve credit, as does every other woman, for being "realistic" about what you wouldn't go for. Your strength in faith deserves to be honored.
Ladies, any guy that doesn't respect your faith or convictions is not a real man. Unfortunately some guys will "play" their version of faith in an attempt to rationalize their desires, instead of realizing that as tough as it is, you've got to hold back. The Christian "players" come out, especially when there is a great woman of Christian faith is at stake.
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I still think its important for women to hold high standards for men. This will help men be men. I've missed out on what I thought were some great women, who went for other guys I didn't think were that great, BUT, thats part of learning to be a man. Deal with it.
Ladies, read "The Marks of Manhood" by Albert Mohler from this site. As a man in his late 20s I've definitely got to say it is inspirational and a standard I hope the women I meet would want me to meet. I don't think its "unrealistic." If a guy can't meet, or at least be striving hard to meet, the 13 aspects in this article then, ladies I think you should be "realistic" and reconsider.
Have faith. Heb: 11
24. Christina said the following at 10:05 PM on Mar 10:
My list keeps changing over the years, but when I was 13 I was told to write down 5 things that I could not live without in a future spouse. That way, I was more willing to see a guy for those attributes and not compromise on some of the most important things to me.
1) Chases after God's heart
2) A leader
3) Wants kids
4) Good hygiene and takes care of himself (moderate exercise...)
As you can see, something fell off the list >.< I'll figure out what that is in the near future...
I gave up on the high end romance stuff with my first boyfriend...I realized we were to imperfect to make hollywood romance work right and it just ended up awkward and disappointing. I'm not really into the high romance and would seriously prefer a canoe, bait, and a fishing pole over a candle lit dinner (just as long as the guy can get the fish off the hook and properly bait my hook for me...)
I don't think I've been unrealistic in my pursuits. I've dated some pretty down-to-earth guys and I thought my expectations were rather normal.
I also think i was realistic in identifying red flags.
25. Sylvia said the following at 10:32 PM on Mar 10:
Good call, DannieA.
Another factor that adds to this I think, is that there are a number of real creeps that come into good churches just to check out the girl situation. They generally have little trouble showing initiative (even if they may act shy). It is not that hard to proclaim an undying love for God and all his precepts until one can get a young lady alone.
What do you all think about this: could we accept a date with any gent who has the nerve to ask provided we think we will feel comfortable doing so? I can sympathize with the very nice, extremely "comfortable" type guys that women sometimes fail to see as marriage material. But, as I was pointing out, 8 times out of ten this seems to be not the reason for declining.
Will that work? Or is there too many hitches?
26. HMWelch said the following at 12:57 AM on Mar 11:
I'd just like to say "Amen, Sister!" to Jeni/#3, even taking into account all the points that kaj/#6 makes. There are, no doubt, quite a few exceptions to the rule, but as far as I know, they're still exceptions and there's still a rule. If I see a ring on a man's finger, it indicates respect of, and honor for, his wife in my eyes, in that he is willing to show the world that he is taken, unavailable, married, etc. Of course, the same goes for women.
And speaking of women, what *is* with the promise ring, or whatever-you-call-it, that I've seen on girls' ring fingers? My brother got a bit confused over that the other day - it looks like the girl's engaged. But she's not. To avoid any confusion, I not only do not wear a ring on my ring finger, but I also do not wear *any* rings on *any* of my fingers (or thumbs!). LOL. (I'm really not against those rings, but maybe they could be worn on a *different* finger!)
27. Jo said the following at 1:44 AM on Mar 11:
Thanks Lisa and k.
k., that's great advice. Problem is it's rare for me to meet just *one* genuine possibility, which does make it hard not to focus too much when one appears. And that's not because my standards are too high, it's simply that I don't have the opportunities right now to meet a lot of new people, especially Christians. But hey. I'm sure God knows what He's doing.
Lisa, your story is encouraging. I would love for that to happen to me and I hope it does. I guess I'm trying to be 'realistic' by acknowledging that some guys are shy, some guys won't pursue after one meeting, etc etc, but they still could be worth getting to know. Maybe I'm trying too hard though.
28. Athena said the following at 2:04 AM on Mar 11:
In response to Jo from #1:
I have experienced something similar once - I greatly disliked the disappointment, pain and confusion that resulted. Never do I want to go through that again! I used to have a checklist as well, but realized that our creative God is too big to be confined to my idea of what works! Who can fathom the ordering of events and strategies that God will use in my life regarding the people I meet? And who knows whether God will change what I view as "essential"? Now, I just pray "God, please keep my heart asleep" before any social event or when I feel my heart is being drawn away prematurely. This is based on the verse in Song of Solomon 2:7, which also recurs throughout the book.
Of course, there are also times when I do Not want God to put my heart to sleep even when I should. Now what? These times prompt me to just tell God about what person/aspect of that person I've been unwilling to let go of; to confess I feel helpless to change anything on my own; and to ask Him to work in my heart through the power of the Holy Spirit washing through me like a river.
Being "intentional" for me is more about having a heart attitude that's active towards God - towards desiring God's methods to be played out in my life, rather than in my actions towards brothers in Christ. Sometimes it's actually Not talking to a certain guy or Not doing things to get his attention even when I am tempted to do so that I experience God's peace. Having one or two trustworthy girlfriends praying for me has been another blessing that God has given me to keep me accountable and thankful.
29. Nate said the following at 5:45 AM on Mar 11:
I think this is a great post. Very profound. But, I do have one question. I know a woman who fits all your descriptors, so by your reasoning I should ask her out. However, I know she has different values and goals in life, even though she is a Christian. I'm quite sure her theology is different than mine. Would it be the right thing to ask her out even though I think the prospect of marrying her is pretty slim? Isn't that setting someone up to get their heart broken? (Mine or hers)
30. khalil said the following at 6:40 AM on Mar 11:
To Sarah, #10...
I am just not the type to wear jewelry. I have a silver cross along with a small chinese symbol/charm (given to me as a gift by a Chinese believer) on a thin chain I wear around my neck, under my shirt...that is it. I would never wear a ring of any kind. Call it cultural, gender issue, personal issue, whatever, I just don't like jewelry and think that men wearing it look silly (same as men getting manicures, trimming eyebrows, ties, etc). Just my opinion. If I ever get married, I don't know how I would approach the whole wedding band issue. I am inclined not to wear one. Just not important to me. I know the promise I would have made, a ring doesn't influence my commitment any more or any less.
If a woman or a high school aged girl wants to wear a promise ring, that is fine. If a man wants to do the same thing, that is also ok. It just isn't for all people.
31. Cliff said the following at 7:10 AM on Mar 11:
I was with my fellowship and we had a discussion on dating. One guy say that it is unbiblical to date. I ask how do people in the Bible get marry. He said they were all arrange.
I propose perhaps we all should do the same. No one in the group said anything aftewards.
I am not sure about other fellowship but I know in my group, dating is a taboo topic.
I like how Denise put it. Pray for the person and love them regardless of who they are. That's counter-cultural but that's what Jesus would do =D
32. Christina (in green) said the following at 8:01 AM on Mar 11:
Suzi,
Boundless posted something concerning "The One" not that long ago. You can find it in the January Archives. Just do a ctrl+F and type in "Found the right one" and you should be able to find it...
33. Christina said the following at 8:15 AM on Mar 11:
Jacob, I once became extremely interested in a guy merely on the fact that we used to have intelligent conversations about everything. We didn't have much in common next to our opinions, but I we were constantly seeking each other out for a refreshing exercise of our brains.
We eventually decided to end the friendship because we were too emotionally involved (I obviously more than him) and it was going nowhere. Since then, "his" use of intellect has become a big one on my list.
You aren't alone! I bet there's more of us out there than we think.
34. Rachael said the following at 8:16 AM on Mar 11:
Hi Nate (29),
Have you ever heard "every date is a potential mate"? I think it's a good ideology to have if people are dating.
Since this person might have a possibility, could you get to know her in other ways (group things, serving, etc.) before asking her out? If you think her chances are slim, I'd say don't ask her on a date.
Heartbreak hurts excruciatingly. Please consider the heartbreak situation seriously. If you think there's a good chance of it, could you please stay away or at least be EXTREMELY careful not to get too close (don't play along as her very good friend if she ends up liking you)unless she becomes a more likely candidate in your eyes? Feel free to discount the phrase "It's better to have love and lost than it is to have loved at all" when it comes to strong unrequited love that can be avoided.
May God's wisdom be with you!
35. Matt said the following at 8:32 AM on Mar 11:
On the ring topic, I think it is important to wear your wedding ring if married. My g/f feels very strongly about it. In fact, she thinks that whoever she marries should have a ring tattoo underneath his ring so that if he takes it off there is a still a marking of "hey, he's taken".
On the just accepting a first date from whoever asks. I think if you know that you aren't interested you should say no. It is confusing to guys if you show interest by saying yes and then just turn them down on the second request. However, if you aren't sure, then accept the date. That is where my g/f was. I asked her out to coffee sort of out of the blue. She had no clue I was interested and didn't know me that well. We just slowly went out and built our relationship and now it's been 4 months and it is going very well.
36. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:42 AM on Mar 11:
DannieA says:
I agree with those points (and they apply to the guys too).
I would also add another category:
(3) those (men and women alike) who are so perfectionist that they exclude otherwise decent Christians.
The categories for perfectionism can include everything from matters of spirituality and character to physical appearances and sometimes combinations thereof.
The key word is REASONABLE (or REALISTIC, as Denise puts it).
And this is a problem among both sexes, as guys do this too.
Good on you for shooting him down. It is reasonable to assume that--if he has any semblance of Christian maturity--he will be willing to abstain from sex until the wedding night. He's either not a Christian or not a very mature one.
37. Rachael said the following at 8:45 AM on Mar 11:
I agree with DanL (15)'s last line, although if there's a reason you go out (to specifically talk about s.t.), then it could be okay. Those situations might not be dates though.
As I just alluded to in my previous comment, heart break is just that...heart. break. No need to encourage that.
But to give the original post the benefit of the doubt when it says: "Be willing to ask a girl out even if she doesn't meet every expectation you've set up in your mind," perhaps she means if the girl could be considered to be a potential candidate and if there's attraction (or maybe a guess that attraction could occur?).
I guess in my way of thinking I'd wish the guy would seek to know the girl through group things, serving together, etc., before individual dates. My heart is very fragile, though, and am not so experienced with dating. Outside of a long relationship in the past, I have only hung out with guys one-on-one (some of which might count as dates/pseudo-dates :) ) a bit. It's not a regular thing for me.
38. Lucia said the following at 8:49 AM on Mar 11:
Sara, #10-
I have a bunch of guy friends who wear True Love Waits rings. They mostly wear them on chains around their necks.
I do think that an engagement ring of some sort would be helpful for guys!!!
39. HunterW said the following at 10:30 AM on Mar 11:
I’ve read several posts where people lay out their “initial checklist” but as I read the comments as to why it seems as if it is based upon personal feelings and likes rather than what God truly wants. I’d suggest that each person pray and ask God to reveal specific SCRIPTURE that will help you identify that particular mate. Here is the small handful of scripture God has given me to pray for my wife:
1 Peter 3:2-3 – for a woman who finds her worth in God
Matthew 8:14 – for a woman who has a strong heart to serve others
Esther 2:7 – a woman that I find beautiful (there are specific reasons I was given this verse)
Not only that, but her life needs to match up with what I believe God has in store for my life. Again, I say pray to Holy Spirit and ask him to give you scripture on this. Here are the verses I believe God has given to me to direct my life:
Joshua 1:5 – know to count on God even when things get tough
Ezekiel 22:30 – be God’s viceroy and be intimately involved in the lives of others, pointing and leading them towards Christ.
Proverbs 24:11 – be actively involved in the lives of non-believers
You’d be surprised at how easy it is to “narrow down the field” when you know what God wants for your life. You’ll see that all but one of these looks at issues of character – not issues of action or interest. And I believe that is God’s desire for all of us – that we would look at a person’s heart first and foremost and let all the other factors work themselves out because all the other factors can easily change. Character on the other hand is much more difficult to change.
40. Jo said the following at 12:15 PM on Mar 11:
Stephen Kloosterman, #22:
Thank you very very much for the biggest laugh of my day. And I completely agree. If someone asks you out and you know you're not interested, why would you accept?
But yeah, if you're not sure and there's a possibility something could develop, then I reckon go for it. Unless he eats bugs.
41. Jo said the following at 12:29 PM on Mar 11:
HunterW,
You're right that some of our 'initial checklists' contain things that aren't 100% necessary. Mine includes music, which is there because it's my passion, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker if everything else fit.
Likewise, I'm not saying that I would pass over a guy who didn't fulfil all of those criteria immediately. It's not meant to exclude people I would otherwise consider, but rather to consider people I might otherwise pass over. The point being, I don't need to have sparks straight away. If all or most of those boxes are ticked, then I think the guy is worth getting to know further.
Also, there is only so much you can tell from a first meeting. Many things that would be vital are things that would only become apparent later on. My list isn't a list of the five most important things I want in a man, but a list of five fairly important things I can usually easily find out from a first meeting.
42. Athena said the following at 1:06 PM on Mar 11:
In response to #33:
I have experienced that once before - it was very painful. I have since learned that solely pursuing enjoyment that comes from intense intellectual, spiritual or emotional bonding with a friend of the opposite sex is taking the easy way out. It's just wanting part of the package without accepting the whole package - namely, enjoying those things in the context of a godly marriage. The book Choosing God's Best by Dr. Raunikar has an interesting discussion on something called "counterfeit oneness."
Yep, women can be very intellectual (like me) and enjoy processing, articulating and writing deep things at times. Don't lose hope! God has made each individual unique and as long as our aim is using all we have to glorify God, He will truly open up the possibilities.
43. Nick said the following at 1:34 PM on Mar 11:
Thanks for sharing that! I do agree that I can often wait until I see someone who had a number of the characteristics I want before taking the risk of going out with her.
I don't want to lose this person as a friend if things do not move forward. It can be hard to define what you are doing as "hey, you want to grab coffee and get to know each other a bit more? Not saying lets get into a relationship, but let's get to know each other"
I sense a lot of pressure in a get-to-know-you date. If you decide they aren't someone you want to pursue, it's like you are rejecting them. And your friendship is over.
But that doesn't have to be a risk, right? You can just ask someone out for the purpose of getting to know them better, with no string attached, right? (With the purpose that if things go well, you will have a DTR and make it official).
Would love to hear what you ladies have to say about how a guy can initiate a time like that! Thanks!
44. Brooke said the following at 2:34 PM on Mar 11:
I dunno. A guy who is willing to eat a bug on a bet is dead sexy. that may just be me, but....
:)
in all seriousness, great article. I have thought these things many times and as a single 28 yr old, this type of pragmatism and realistic approach to dating is necessary. also, CALM DOWN - girls need to stop freaking out and being so uptight about the dating process. and guys - step up. don't be so afraid of rejection that you don't go after that great girl because she hasn't shouted from the rooftops that she is madly in love with you. please value us enough to take the risk - we might be worth it.
45. Autumn said the following at 2:54 PM on Mar 11:
On the subject of true love waits rings, I'm single and I wear one on my ring finger. To me, it's something to remind me that I'm waiting for someone, and that I need to keep myself pure for that someone, even though I don't know who he is yet. and i have thought about the fact that it might be confusing for guys, but it's a sapphire ring, and doesn't really look like a typical engagement or wedding ring. it's also a good way to start a conversation, because people sometimes ask why i have a ring on my ring finger, then i get to share my beliefs with them. but when i get engaged, i plan on moving it to my right hand, obviously. i'm not sure what i'll do with it once i'm married, probably give it to my husband.
46. DannieA said the following at 3:41 PM on Mar 11:
In response to Mike and Amir:
Thanks so much for your affirmation, I was having an off day yesterday after the weekend break up...so to hear an affirmation from a guy gives me hope that there are still decent Christian men out there.
Sylvia...I agree with you too!
47. Nicole said the following at 5:40 PM on Mar 11:
Chiming in on the topic of "promise rings" my experience has been very similar to Autumn's (#45). The ring that I wear on my ring finger is not the promise ring that my parents gave me. It's actually the ring that they gave when I graduated from high school. It's a very unique design with a teardrop shape and a star but it sparkles and I'm frequently asked if I'm engaged. It opens up some pretty interesting conversations.
Also, I love getting the guys' perspective on this whole relationship thing. It's so refreshing to see that there really are godly guys out there. It's quite interesting (and dare I say helpful) to peek inside your head and get your thoughts, fellas. :)
48. Rachael said the following at 6:12 PM on Mar 11:
Jacob,
As others have been saying, it's definitely possible for you to find s.o. w/ intellectual interests, or s.o. who would be willing to learn about them.
Though I'm not able to discuss science/logic in a highly intellectual way, I really would cherish a husband with whom I'm able to deeply discuss and study the Bible together often. I'd love to marry someone who is passionate about the Word (though it seems a no-brainer to say on a Christian blog, I actually think my ideal might be a bit rare) and seeks to understand it in its proper context and is able to extract from it and apply it to life. I'd love to learn from my husband, though I'm afraid I wouldn't have much intellectual stuff to offer him. I should work on that, not for that reason, but ideally for God's glory and benefit of others and myself. I am observant about life, but it might be more at a heart level than an intellectual level. I would LOVE to know tons about the Bible and be able to humbly share it with others in accessible ways that is profittable to them. I need to spend way more time in the Word.
49. Laura2 said the following at 6:39 PM on Mar 11:
Nick, #43
"It can be hard to define what you are doing as "hey, you want to grab coffee and get to know each other a bit more? Not saying lets get into a relationship, but let's get to know each other"
I sense a lot of pressure in a get-to-know-you date. If you decide they aren't someone you want to pursue, it's like you are rejecting them. And your friendship is over."
Nick, I fully understand where you are coming from!!! My fiance and I had a get-to-know-you date to start off with and it was quite possibly one of the most hilarious moments of my life (probably because I was soooo shy!). I think before you get anywhere near a get-to-know-you, you should have been friends for a period of time (depends on the people, my fiance and I were raised in the same church, so no hassles!). But this way, you already have a friendship with the person, you've seen how they react and respond to different situations, you know their values and beliefs. If you both have prayed through and sought advice on beginning a relationship, whether there are sparks and fireworks or not, then definately have a get-to-know-you date - and you'll both understand it's purpose. (We just went out for coffee after church one weekend).
I think this date is the perfect time for a DTR - talk about (and you should initiate as the man) how you feel, what you are hoping for, how you would guide the relationship, or would like to see it develop. This is where it's helpful to have already been friends! If you find that you just aren't seeking the same thing, or need more time to think and pray, don't rush! It's better to take a little time and be sure of starting a relationship or not, than to rush into one anyway and cause heartbreak later. If either of you isn't confident in entering a relationship, speak up and pray that your friend is gracious enough to accept you as their friend. If, however, you both know you're confident in stepping into a relationship, then go for it (this is also a great time to talk about boundaries - right at the start!)
Anyway, a little over a year on, and my fiance and I are preparing to be married in just over a month. I would definately advise a get-to-know-you date - or series of dates - before entering any relationship.
50. S said the following at 7:45 PM on Mar 11:
Please tell me someone's going to open a thread regarding the "Settling" article.
51. Mary Alice :) said the following at 8:34 PM on Mar 11:
I just wanted to say I love this post. God is so amazing! I was just talking to a friend 2 hours ago about this very topic.
We are both 19 years old and good, godly girls who bought into the line everyone told us "oh, you girls are so good, I just know God is going to reward you with the perfect man!" While I still believe God does have the perfect man for me to marry, this set up unrealistic ideas in my head. And I got my heart broken (without even having to be in a relationship!) by false expectations. Thanks for keepin' it real.
ps I loooove all the comments about guys "I order fried grasshoppers, as I always do" (ha!)
52. BDB said the following at 8:51 PM on Mar 11:
DanL (#15) wrote:
>>If you know you aren’t interested in someone, please don’t get their hopes up my going out them once.<<
Um...OK, don't go out with guys named "Dan." Goodness, don't throw everyone else into this.
Believe me, even if you've "known" someone for a few years, your impression of them can change dramatically during an hour and a half conversation over lunch. Granted, it can be either positive or negative. But one lunch is worth it.
But perhaps more importantly, you need to keep in mind that the guys asking you to lunch are probably being asked to lunch by non-Christian women. If Christian women turn down lunch invitations unless they forsee marriage, and non-Christian women think lunch is no big deal and go around extending invitations, the net result is that the guy thinks he's not Christian enough. Women who think Christian men don't ask enough - well, this is the root of the problem. It's just lunch! If a guy finds that the women in his church always say no because they aren't ready to marry him, but non-Christian women are saying "yes" because lunch isn't a big deal - well, he might decide that missionary dating is worth it after all...
Suzi (#17) wrote:
>> but he just feels like that God has taken away the feelings for a reason, so it is best that we part ways. <<
And in #19 wrote:
>>Did God designate only one person for each of us? <<
Well, look up the books by Elisabeth Elliot. Her first husband was martyred by Auca Indians in Equador, her 2nd husband died of cancer, and her 3rd husband handles her correspondence now. One at a time, definitely.
Perhaps it's not a waste...now you know that anyone who doesn't understand that feelings ebb and flow is really immature and not worth your time...better to find out now than after the wedding.
Laura (#18) wrote:
>>A friend of mine has recently begun dating a young man, and she's working through that right now.<<
Good. It's a lot slower. But something I saw on David Letterman once is burned into my mind. He was interviewing Roger Loge, the host of "Blind Date," and asked him what "worked" best. Without a moment's hesitation, Roger said,
"Go slow."
Dave was caught off guard. Roger then outlined a well thought out set of observations comparing people who "rushed" chemistry and people who were slow. It was probably memorable because it was so unexpected.
Nate (#29) wrote:
>>I'm quite sure her theology is different than mine. Would it be the right thing to ask her out even though I think the prospect of marrying her is pretty slim?<<
Well, what happened when you prayed about it?
Just last night I was talking with a woman from my church who was explaining that she dated a guy for a year and a half and eventually they broke up over a couple of theological differences. (For the record, the guy was crazy to let them get in his way and let her get away.) But you could always ask her, "Would you like to have a theological conversation over lunch?"
And for the record, I'm glad we've finally distinguished between which Christina is green and which belongs in an Erb garden...
Autumn (#45) wrote:
>>but it's a sapphire ring, and doesn't really look like a typical engagement or wedding ring.<<
So, what I hear you saying is that it looks like your boyfriend gave you a sapphire promise ring that you're wearing until you get the diamond?
Hey, so many women without rings have kind-of-boyfriends, so an actual ring on the left hand will be assumed to mean something...
53. Jennifer said the following at 9:36 PM on Mar 11:
I think it's possible to have expectations that are reasonable, but not necessarily realistic. Let me explain:
As I've written about before, in Christian communities where there is a shortage of single Christian men (ie. most of them), women often find themselves in the dilemma of having to "settle" or stay single. It's quite possible that a lot of those women have reasonable expectations (that he's of similar intelligence and level of employment, involved in a Christian community, attractive enough to put your face up close to), that are in reality, are unrealistic, because of numbers just aren't there.
Whereas, the men who are in short supply may not realize how good they have it-- that their chances of finding someone a bit prettier, younger, are increased somewhat, as compared to the secular world, but only to a point.
At the same time, there are men who, for various reasons, struggle to find wives, even when there's a surplus of women. Their chances may be somewhat improved by the gender imbalance, but again, only to a point.
I guess what I'm saying is that as Christians, we are implored to look beyond the superficial to the person underneath. But Christians mate and marry no differently than anyone else, as evidenced by the fact that couples that do marry tend to match, in terms of level of intelligence and looks. Where there are shortages in members of the opposite sex, "settling" does occur, but only to a point, especially when women are in surplus.
This means that a lot of women will choose to "opt out" of marriage and children, rather than settle for someone they just can't love at all, especially when they can support themselves financially (and this goes not only for career women but women with ordinary jobs as well).
I'm not writing about this to discourage anybody or take away their hope-- people do work things out, sometimes "settling", sometimes lucking out with someone who exceeds their expectations, or accepting their singleness. I'm writing about these "hard to mentions", because it's easy to blame the opposite sex when you don't realize that there's a gender imbalance.
It's not the fault of church-going guys that there aren't enough of them to go around, nor should women begrudge that they have an advantage in the mate selection department. But it is wrong for men to maintain a blissful ignorance about the gender imbalance and how it affects their sisters. The numerical advantage should be humbling, lest any presume that the women should settle, as if their SAM should be some kind of bargain basement for surplus women, or, heaven forbid, be caught complaining "where are the women?"). Likewise, it's wrong to dismiss the justifiable anxieties of single Christian women as time forces them to calculate the odds of being able to find someone.
It is also true that with or without a gender imbalance, some men and women have more difficulty than other find mates due to circumstances and personal characteristic beyond their control (ie. looks, charm, height, weight, means, etc.), and for those individuals it may be especially hard not to blame the opposite sex for their seeming superficiality, a stance that never pays to get stuck in. We have to own up to the facts about ourselves and work on accepting those realities, rather than blaming the world. I think of a dignified disabled man I knew, who accepted that his situation created a barrier for most women, but never did succumb to bitter mysogyny. It took him years, but he did eventually find someone.
54. Jo said the following at 10:26 AM on Mar 12:
BDB said:
"It's just lunch!"
Yep, lunch is cool. Candlelit dinner, not so much. If I guy I'm on friendly terms with wants to go out for something casual, that's cool. But there are some activities that sound much more 'date-like', and I'd be uncomfortable about accepting an invitation like that if I was fairly sure I wasn't interested.
Example: A guy asked me out to dinner one weekend, I said I was busy in the evening but that we could do something in the day. That's what I do if I'm okay with getting to know someone but not okay with giving the impression of more interest than I actually have. I wouldn't usually turn the guy down altogether.
55. Grace said the following at 1:16 PM on Mar 12:
I need your advise....
I like this guy at church, and i think his single. I dont really know him that much even though we go to the same church.
I would like to know what he thinks. My sister suggests i go out of my way and find opportunities to talk to him as often as i can. However i feel there are too many girls in our church who are already giving him that kind of attention because of his prominant position in church.
Guys, if a girl told you she likes you what would you think about her.? As a christian would you feel she has not given you a chance to find her, i know the bible says he that finds a wife finds a good thing. Looking forward to your advise. Ladies whats your views. i have not been asked out for a long time so the realistic part does not apply to me.
56. Andrea said the following at 2:39 PM on Mar 12:
Jacob said:
>>Here's one for the peanut gallery: how reasonable is it for me to expect a moderate to high interest in intellectual endeavors?<<
Very reasonable. In fact, I find intelligent conversation to be quite refreshing, as do most of my best friends. As a girl with a mind of her own, it's nice to be appreciated for it!
(Now, most of the girls like this that I know are more likely to discuss the social implications of a new law passed by Congress than discuss the finer points of physics. But there's always exceptions to that rule.)
57. BDB said the following at 8:59 PM on Mar 12:
Grace (#55) wrote:
>>Guys, if a girl told you she likes you what would you think about her.? <<
After careful consideration, I've adopted Elisabeth Elliot's position that women shouldn't say such things first. For some reason, it just doesn't work out well. It could easily scare him off if he hasn't reached that point himself.
I do think it's fine to smile, say hello, and ask him intelligent questions that show you're paying attention.
58. Leah said the following at 10:17 PM on Mar 12:
I'm realizing that what I've always thought I wanted in someone isn't anything like the person I need. To love someone who loves everything I love is to love my self and my own desires. And quite frankly, it's boring.
I liked the When to Settle article. I think that someone who fears God, seeks to grow closer to God, and is really the best example of husband material.
59. Chris Williams said the following at 10:36 PM on Mar 12:
HEY!!!! What's wrong with eating bugs?!?!?! hehehehe, couldn't resist.
60. Amy said the following at 10:51 PM on Mar 12:
Grace #55, Wait for him to ask you. Have faith. It is not the best idea for the woman to make the first move! Even if you end up together, you will always wonder "Would he have chosen *me*?" and so will he.
But no harm in putting yourself in his path, let him have the chance to get to know you, and give him the chance to ask!
61. Amir Larijani said the following at 12:08 PM on Mar 13:
Chris: Nothing wrong with eating bugs. Rumor has it they put hair on your chest.
62. kman said the following at 12:58 PM on Mar 13:
To love someone who loves everything I love is to love my self and my own desires. And quite frankly, it's boring.
Yup. Some overlap is good, but overlapping everything? Nah. You end up growing by interacting with people with different interests...at least I do. :)
63. Ben said the following at 1:05 PM on Mar 13:
Jennifer (53),
I agree with quite a lot of what you're saying, but be careful not to overgeneralize on the demographics of Christian communities. Nearly every fellowship with which I've been affiliated has ranged from parity to having very few single women. Whatever the reasons for that are, it does present a dilemma as far as whether I should scale back my ministry involvement to look for a community where I'd be more likely to meet someone. (Of course, the women in Christian communities with few men presumably also face that issue.)
64. Derek said the following at 2:28 PM on Mar 13:
that's cool. i recently have been trying to think that way as well. "not how can i be happy, but how can i make someone else happy."
65. Rachael said the following at 10:58 PM on Mar 13:
Chris 59 -- well, ants have protein right? And maybe other bugs? I wonder why it's often considered to be gross or scary to eat them...
Weird huh? Seems like it would be a more productive way to dispose of them :).
(I think it's really cool how some people free (rather than kill) bugs, though!!)
66. Rachael said the following at 9:00 AM on Apr 24:
BDB (52) wrote:
"It's just lunch!"
-->Well, I have an opportunity to accept lunch of coffee if I want. Hmmm. Not much data and what to think about the data I do have...
Maybe my heart can echo "it's just lunch", but when you don't get asked much or have much data...somehow...I don't know...
67. Ken Fleck said the following at 1:36 PM on Apr 28:
Why are we as a christian culture so focused on dating anyway??? There's a world that needs saving and I truly believe that if we modeled living out the Great Commandment and the Great Commission, then all these other things would fall into place.
"Do not be conformed to the PATTERN OF THIS WORLD, but be transformed by the RENEWING OF YOUR MIND that you will be able to test and approve the perfect will of GOD." Romans 12:1-3...
His WIll is to love and obey his commands and God is faithful to provide according to OUR NEEDS...seek first HIS KINGDOM and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things will be added unto you.
In Love,
Ken