Let's Talk About Dating, Part 4: Moving Toward Clarity
by Suzanne Hadley on 03/17/2008 at 4:32 PM
So I like you. You like me. We're spending time together. But we're not dating.
I'm going to avoid terminology we've used in the past simply because I'm tired of it. Relationships are complex and each one is different. I wrote an article called "Not Your Buddy" to address the frustration many Christian singles feel when they have a special friend that seems to stay just that. The person obviously has the potential to be more -- otherwise he or she would be "special."
But how do you move from that ambiguous "we've got a connection" to something more intentional? It's not easy for either the guy or the girl. From the article by Jason Illian that Denise referenced in her last post, the author makes this observation:
The normal model of male-female relationships is quite simple -- you are either dating or you are not dating. But the current Christian model is quite different. Perhaps we got held underwater a little too long during baptism, but our model looks like this: become friends, hang out, get to know one another, see where it goes, talk about possibly getting involved, discuss the north wind and how it may affect the relationship, talk to the youth pastor about it, pray about it, fast over it, court (which may mean dating), date (which may mean courting), and finally, date. Instead of having or not having a romance, we add a million meaningless micro-steps which muddy the already difficult waters.
So is the problem a lack of decisiveness (as discussed in the post "Holding Out")? Is it an unwillingness or lack of desire to commit to one option, even if it seems promising? Or is it general confusion about how to navigate the process when it seems so much is resting on it?
The last time I was getting to know a Christian guy, I almost felt paralyzed by all the dating and courtship advice I've absorbed over the years. I had a strong desire to do it just right. And I think that's the point Illian was making. We've made it more complicated than it needs to be. Just commit to it. Like any process in life -- getting a job, making a move, choosing a major, selecting a church -- courtship and dating require a certain degree of commitment to the process. And answers to big questions are revealed through that commitment -- not apart from it. Sometimes the answer will be yes, sometimes it will be no. Everything doesn't need to be decided before engaging in the process.
If you're wondering about the viability of a relationship with someone, take a few simple, intentional steps to test your theory. Being direct and seeking clarity will provide more answers -- and satisfaction -- than hanging on in a relationship shrouded in mystery. And if you've made things complicated for yourself, start afresh ... the simple answer is often the right answer.
1. Emily said the following at 5:58 PM on Mar 17
So true. My now boyfriend and I were the textbook case of this. We hung out for a few months (liking each other the whole time), talked about liking each other, liked each other "intentionally," and then finally had a conversation because he thought we were dating but I had no clue. Finally we are, but this was all done behind the smoke screen of not knowing where I will go to grad school. I (the girl) also had to initiate the first conversation. When we finally talked honestly about it, the problem was really about not "knowing for sure" how it would turn out before we gave it a try. Once we sorted it out, we realized that figuring this out would only happen (for us) in the safety of a committed relationship. We still don't know where I'm going to be in 5 months, but when it comes down to it, there are no guarantees anyway. We're SO happy in how we are deciding to trust God in committing to each other. I would encourage anyone in the situation I was in to stop trying to do it perfectly, because God might actually be calling you to take a risk (even an unconventional one).
2. Sarah said the following at 6:12 PM on Mar 17
Great post! I’m 22 and well ready to be married at this point in my life. I just went through this with a guy (that I used to go to the same church as) who's been talking to me on MySpace pretty regularly for over 2 months...he finally asked me to the movies, we went and I thought had a nice time, although the next day he seemed to literally stop talking to me...then out of nowhere a week later he e-mails me again like nothing’s happened and tells me he likes my new picture, how am I doing, etc...I finally got the guts to write back and tell him he was confusing me and I needed to know what exactly he was pursuing, if only friendship that was OK but I needed to know...he wrote back and said only friendship, and that he never meant anything else?!? I sincerely want to still be his friend but I have lost some respect for him. How can a 22 year old guy think sending daily messages, giving flattering comments and asking a girl on a date (even if you don’t call it one it still is!) to the movies be construed as anything else then as pursuing someone romantically?!?! Is he just afraid? Anyway...after LOTS of prayer God has given me peace about it and I'm glad He gave me the wisdom/courage not let it drag on any longer. I pray the next girl he likes (or doesn't like!) does not have to go through the same ordeal. If was a good first experience with “dating/getting to know a guy” for me...and I will guard my heart even closer the next time around...
3. Suzanne said the following at 6:30 PM on Mar 17
THANK YOU! This was much needed.
4. anon said the following at 6:42 PM on Mar 17
Thank you for this.
5. Ashley said the following at 7:49 PM on Mar 17
Sarah (Comment #2) - let me say I just shouted a great loud "AMEN!" and was nodding my head with you. Girl, do I ever understand your situation! My story is a little different, but the same principle.
A friend of mine from high school and I decided to stay in contact once we went to college. (He's 8 hrs. away). We sent A LOT of emails back and forth. Prayer requests and lessons God was teaching us were often topics of emails. It was a great, God-centered relationship.
Whenever he came home (about once a semester) he invited me over to his home to watch movies, or to dinner, or just out to see each other. He started typing that he loved me. What's a girl supposed to make of a situation like this?!?!?!
Finally, a year and a half after graduation, I knew what I had to do --I had to ask him what he was pursuing. I felt like I was pouring too much of myself into him and into our "relationship" if that's not where it was headed. Not to mention, I wanted to keep myself available to any of the Godly young men I know from school/church, and with my mind thinking that we were in a relationship, that just wasn't happening. His response was even more confusing than his actions prior to this -- something along the lines of "just friends, but I don't know what God is leading me to, so ... yeah, but I'd be honored if He let 'us' become and 'us'." What?!?!
After MUCH prayer, I have decided to end all communication with him. I hate that I lost my only true Christian friend through this ordeal, but I cannot allow myself back in that situation again.
Anyway, God (in His infinite wisdom) has used that heart-wrenching experience to teach me so much about who He is and who I am in HIM. Praise God! I'm so thankful that that tough time wasn't in vain. God had/has a purpose!
6. Leah said the following at 8:27 PM on Mar 17
Wow.
Uh... pretty much in every case I've come across, it looks something like this.
Boy meets girl (usually through social situation).
Become friends.
Attraction develops.
Flirting ensues.
Boy asks girl out (usually involving discussion about feelings).
Boy and girl are now dating.
It *can* get a bit more complicated than that if, during the "boy asks girl out" stage, either of them is not quite ready for it or there is some existing problem, but generally, that's the skeleton of things.
7. Crystal said the following at 9:11 PM on Mar 17
Many of the "meaningless microsteps" that claim to help us date in a way that honors God and one another are actually sneaky attempts to avoid risk and pain.
8. Katalina said the following at 10:12 PM on Mar 17
Great post!
Sarah from post #22: I know EXACTLY what you went through. almost the same situation happened to me last summer up to this spring. A boy that i went to church with would email me and talk to me about all these different things in life and then would ask me to hang out and we would spend exclusive time together. I have spent A LOT of time and money on traveling long distances to see him. I knew he was a strong christian and i was ready to undergo whatever to commit. I am not afraid of committment and was watching very closley to see if God wanted me to pursue anything with this young man. I called the boy out on his behavior and he never gave me a straight answer though he did apologize for any confusions. I said that all was fine and that we were still friends. After that we have become closer friends and have continued in our "hanging out". This has confused me beyond belief and in many cased has left me very hurt when he acts so aloof of our "thing" that we had going on. I never said anything again to him about it. I speak to him a lot less and God has allowed me to let go of any pain or confusion. Sometimes i get upset again and i still think he is a great guy. I think i would still commit to him if he were get over his fears of making big desisions or whatever. He probably just needs to grow up. His loss though. i have moved on. Guys should not fear going for what they want. If You are a young man and have a close relationship with a godly young woman, might i suggest that you either be the bold and brave man that God wants you to be and commit to her or if you feel strongly to hold back, by all means, leave the girl alone. there is a way of being a "brother-in-christ" and not a "Potential mate". Ask God to show you how to be a good brother and love her the right way that does not leave her questioning your actions. I have found that it is best to be upfront concerning these things. it saves so much time and heartache. Guard your hearts friends and don't be afraid to question your "special" friend's motives. You have every right to. and even if after questioning he does not give you a straight answer, a man that can't choose you is not worth your time or right for you. you want someone who says YES TO YOU! :)
9. BDB said the following at 10:32 PM on Mar 17
The OP (#0) wrote:
>>The last time I was getting to know a Christian guy, I almost felt paralyzed by all the dating and courtship advice I've absorbed over the years.<<
OK, that presents a good question. Picture a situation where the guy is intentional (Saying something like, I've enjoyed talking to you at church for x months, would you be willing to continue this conversation elsewhere?)
And the girl responds with paralysis, and is unable to answer yes or no.
What would you suggest he do?
10. Phil Cotnoir said the following at 10:46 PM on Mar 17
Guys need to step up and be the ones to state their intentions clearly and bring clarity to the always confusing subject of dating and relationships. We can be such wimps. Will the women ever forgive us?
There was an article a ways back on boundless about men being the ones to tell the girl that he likes her because then the risk is on his part, and the possibility for pain is his, and in doing so he protects the girl. I always thought this was awesome, and it's what I did, and thankfully it has worked out great so far. I am still learning how to lead in a way that protects and honors my now-girlfriend. May we as men learn to be men who lead humbly but courageously.
11. bri said the following at 11:47 PM on Mar 17
I generally enjoy and benefit from the relationship-related articles and posts regularly featured on Boundless.
However, I often feel like what's being discussed and the "advice" given is sometimes shrouded in Church-ese, tip-toeing over the realistic truths of the dating scene...ESPECIALLY within Christian circles.
Thank you for being honest and not sugar coating (or entirely side-stepping)the reality of what is actually happening and how frustrating this really can be.
I appreciate Suzanne's willingness to "tell it like it is," with no hint of bitterness or, the other extreme, gushing optimism. Well done.
12. a sassy sister said the following at 7:34 AM on Mar 18
I think A BIG problem is that WE HAVE ALLOWED OUR FEARS AND OUR PRIDE to get in the way of building healthy relationships--namely the fear of rejection and the fear of man. We get so concerned about making sure OUR ACTIONS look right in dating without checking OUR MOTIVES. I've seen people get into unhealthy relationships based on what EVERYONE else was telling them instead of what God was telling them individually (through Scripture and prayer). Please understand that I am not knocking wise godly counsel at all. I'm just have a problem with the whole consulting everyone and their mother about an issue that YOU ultimately are going to live with for the rest of your life more intimately than anyone else.
I've seen Ilian's model about how the church handles dating, and instead of seeing clear channels of communication, I see too many instances of spiritual abuse (i.e. church leaders attempting to put the kibosh on a relationship because it would take the person away from their ministry instead of it being an issue of character or maturity) and "church bureaucracy"(it takes 4 meetings and 50 phone calls before you even declare what your relationship is).
So thank you for this post.
13. Caleb S. said the following at 9:25 AM on Mar 18
Indeed, thank you. It directly relates to my current situation. Although I have declared to her I want to be intentional certain things have kept us from becoming "official". After reading this I think I will be less likely to put off bringing the issue up again. We are about in our late twenties and don't want to beat around the bush. Good advice!
14. Suzanne said the following at 9:50 AM on Mar 18
BDB,
Good question. First, let me clarify. I wasn't SO paralyzed that I turned this guy down. It was more a general hesitancy as I stepped forward into the process.
You should probably attempt to determine the source of paralysis. There's always the possibility that she is not interested but doesn't know how to let you down gently. However, it may also be that she is hesitant to enter a relationship with ANYONE right now, but you shouldn't necessarily assume. I would advise you to do what Caleb is planning to do: Bring up the topic one more time and attempt to have a frank discussion about the possibility of dating. Also, provide the girl a way out -- no hard feelings -- if she doesn't feel inclined. This is a really honorable thing to do and builds trust.
15. Caleb S. said the following at 10:08 AM on Mar 18
After reading other comments and some of the articles linked I would like to make another comment. I don't understand why guys would hang out with a girl one-on-one without the intention to pursue. My roommate was recently spending time with a girl with no intention of pursuing her, so I called him out on it and he didn't respond at first, but eventually stepped up and told her. Thankfully their where no strong emotional tie there(that I know of).
But just so you ladies know there are guys out there that will only spend exclusive time with you with the intention to pursue you. I will also say I have experienced what you have before though. I once had spent lots of time talking to a friends sister online and spoke on the phone a lot and eventually flew out to see her. When I stated my intentions she was a bit freaked out and thought we were only friends. So girls can be guilty of it too, but perhaps I am partly at fault for not telling her up front I had intentions. So, I think both male and females should be cautious of this.
p.s. Is the Jason Illian mentioned in this article the same guy from The Bachelorette?
16. Melissa D. said the following at 10:33 AM on Mar 18
I am one of those people who have read many Christian dating/relationship books over the years. After rereading one last month, I decided it was fruitless. I know what I'm supposed to do and what I'm supposed to look for, and reading the same advice over and over wasn't helping me to get where I needed to be, so I moved the books out of sight and determined I would let God and common sense govern my next relationship. I have the tendency to overanalyze things, so this was pretty freeing!
17. Reid said the following at 11:12 AM on Mar 18
#15: There's no way to win, there really isn't. Be upfront from the start, and people will be put off by the scary thought of taking a chance on getting to know someone new, at those stakes. Be covert about your intentions, and people will later be irritated that the relationship wasn't "defined" enough.
Of course, the situation in the original post, two people spending a lot of "hanging-out/limbo" time together, is a different case.
18. Mark said the following at 11:26 AM on Mar 18
>>Is it an unwillingness or lack of desire to commit to one option, even if it seems promising? Or is it general confusion about how to navigate the process when it seems so much is resting on it? <<
I'll have to go with the latter. When I read the list of unofficial steps to take (on this site) about what the godly model of dating looks like, for example:
No spending time alone
Finding an older, wiser married couple to receive counsel from
No physical contact except for quick hugs
Expressing your intentions to the girl's father
I feel pretty overwhelmed with all of the dos and don'ts of dating. In order to undertake all of the above-mentioned items at the outset, I'd have to be pretty blown away by the woman. Of course, it's not entirely likely that I'm going to feel that way immediately so I'd have to spend some time getting to know the girl. That may be in a group, but if I do that for too long I risk falling into inactivity and "group dating." Or I may hang around her and have a few one-on-one conversations which may give her the impression that I'm interested when I may not be.
I think alot of the relationship advice on Boundless is helpful, but it also gives off the look of legalism. In the face of all this, no wonder guys may not initiate.
Personally, I have no problem asking a girl out. It's the second or third date that perlplexes me. How do you get to know someone without giving off the signal "we're in a relationship" and not acting clingy?
19. BDB said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 18
Suzanne #14 wrote:
>>Bring up the topic one more time and attempt to have a frank discussion about the possibility of dating. Also, provide the girl a way out -- no hard feelings -- if she doesn't feel inclined.<<
OK - let's extend the hypothetical.
Say you find out she was once previously engaged, and it didn't work out. Instead of accepting either of the options presented above (dating or the way out), she comes back with a 3rd option of continuing communication but short of dating?
20. Suzanne said the following at 1:40 PM on Mar 18
Mark (#18),
Thanks for that insightful comment. I have received similar feedback from other guys; I think you articulated it well. As the "rules" pile up, the pressure for a relationship to be "it" from the onset rises.
Biblical guidelines are good, but there is something to be said for simplicity. Common sense and a tight relationship with Christ will most likely deter us from many of the big dating "mistakes" (sexual immorality, lack of accountability, rushing, etc.). Perhaps we should regard all the dating and relationship advice on Boundless as helpful tools not suffocating rules.
I remember an argument Josh Harris made in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." In advocating a courtship model, he suggested that obviously people could engage in a godly, healthy dating relationship. However, the typical dating relationship was prone to certain flaws -- much like a faulty grocery cart that you're constantly having to straighten out.
I think we're better off if we evaluate particular relationship strategies for their strengths and weaknesses. But ultimately, a godly relationship is the fruit of both people seeking God and each other in an intentional way.
Regarding your second/third date dilemma...look for a future post on this topic.
21. Sarah said the following at 1:50 PM on Mar 18
Ashley (#5) I'm sorry to hear you went through the same kind of situation I did, but I am glad God has given you clarity to move on! Can you imagine if God's word said "I want to give you grace and mercy, but I'm not quit sure, let's just see where this is headed"...Men, please, stand up! It's OK to say that you are interested in exclusively pursuing a girl romantically without that meaning you've asked them to marry you! If things go on and you realize she's not for you, as long as you've treated her with purity and respect there is nothing wrong with ending things. I would MUCH rather have that happen then have things go on forever in limbo-land. Girls just want to know that you are interested and working towards the prospect of marriage with them, we don't need an absolute promise of marriage to just to get to know you, but we're also not going to wait around trying to figure out if you would even consider us wife material or not...why should we share our time/personality/etc. with you if we're that confused? I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp...I believe God wants us to read his word, pray, and MOVE FORWARD in a decision! Also, to those who've said the "rules" are "too much" this sounds like what my unsaved friend tells me when I tell her about how wonderful salvation and life in Christ is. All she sees are "the rules" as she puts it. How sadly wrong she is! It's not about legalism, it's about following scripture set examples of how to be sure you are treating a fellow christian sister in a God honoring way. Doing this leaves you with joy and peace in the end instead of trying to "feel it out" on your own terms...God Bless you all!
22. Suzanne said the following at 2:00 PM on Mar 18
BDB (#19),
That does add some perspective. You have to decide if you can live with option No. 3. You're certainly not obligated to. I wouldn't suggest it for the long term, because you don't have any promises, but you may feel that the value of a relationship with this particular woman is worth waiting around on her terms for a determined amount of time. I have a friend who just disconnected from a woman in this same state of limbo. I think he was completely justified in doing so.
23. NeedACatchyName said the following at 2:09 PM on Mar 18
In response to BDB in post #9 (still lovin' those post numbers), I think at that point you tell the girl that she doesn't have to respond now, and that she should feel free to think about it for a few days and get back to you. If you haven't heard back in a few days, give her a call, answer any questions she may have, and restate your question, making sure to mention that there will be no hard feelings if the answer is "no," so as to ease the risk on her part.
I would also add that in addition to clear initiations from guys, clear responses from the girls help the dating process go a lot smoother. If you're not interested, let the guy know, and don't say things like "I need more time to think about it," or "maybe, I'll get back to you later" unless that's really the way you feel. Really, I can't think of a guy out there who wouldn't prefer a clear and direct "no thanks, I'm not interested" to days and days of a girl making up excuses and avoiding the guy but never actually telling him she's not interested. Plus the indecision usually causes the guy to pursue harder, which almost invariably winds up either making the girl angry or slightly freaked-out. Granted, most guys will usually take the hint after a while, but it's so much easier for both parties if a clear response is given.
24. BDB said the following at 2:34 PM on Mar 18
Sarah (#21) wrote:
>>...why should we share our time/personality/etc. with you if we're that confused? I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp...<<
Well, let's look at it from the destiny angle if we can.
Say a man already knows that God expects him to support missionaries financially - maybe to the tune of a few thousand dollars a year. He therefore knows that he probably needs to marry a woman who believes similarly.
It's quite possible to know people casually at church and NEVER know their giving patterns. In normal church, there are a lot more women who'd rather spend that money shopping. It would be quite awkward - and in my view inappropriate - to approach someone about marriage before he knew that she was at least in a similar neighborhood of thought.
Of course, one of the solutions it to spend time in those groups where people are like-minded. On Sunday I was at an outreach meeting at church. I was surprised to see a guy there I'd known for more than 10 years. I asked why he was there - and he went on to tell me how he had just gotten back from Hanoi, Vietnam. I never knew this about this guy. Completely changed my perception of him.
There's lots of women who act pretty secular most of the time. They work, have their nice car, etc. Where people's heart is - what they give their money to - is often buried down deep. You need a way to find that out before doing any approaching.
25. keightie said the following at 3:22 PM on Mar 18
This is such a strange phenomenon, and it has happened to me, and I agree with Crystal (#7) that the extrabiblical standards imposed on dating couples are just "sneaky attempts to avoid risk and pain," and that they cause relationships like this to occur between legalism-conscious, judgment-wary churched young people scared into noncommitment because they are so determined to "get it right."
Reading all the books that are out there about this makes it easy to fall into that pattern, but the only things we really need to avoid are the sneaky attempts of the devil to persuade us to allow sin into one of God's most important creations. To trust him with our lives and hearts is the only safeguard against sin, risk, AND pain.
So Sarah, when you said in your first post that you "will guard [your] heart even closer the next time around", take all those Joshua Harris connotations out of your mind, go back to the verse in the Bible about guarding your heart (Proverbs 4:23), and take a closer look at it. It's about guarding your heart from sin, not from emotional attachment to a member of the opposite gender. When we seek God's kingdom first, the latter is a blessing, not something to "guard" yourself against. I know. Once I asked God to help me get out of the "pal" cycle, he brought me my wonderful boyfriend, a person I can grow closer to in complete faith in God together without worry. If you're not ready to share your heart with someone, you're not ready to be complaining that none of your friendships with the opposite gender are materializing into "actual" relationships.
26. Rachael said the following at 4:21 PM on Mar 18
BDB (24),
Idea. Could you casually talk with potentials about their general thoughts about giving, rather than their particular individual giving patterns? They may suscribe to the secrecy method of Matt. 6:4.
Here are some example conversation starter ideas that may not be of any use but just in case they are :) :
1) What do you think about tithing? Do you think it's clear about what we are supposed to do about that these days?
2) What do you think about giving to your church vs. giving to charities/missionaries? Do you think giving to charities/missionaries should be extra, or do you think it should be a part of your tithe?
3) Hey - I noticed so-and-so was running a marathon/doing whatever to support such-and-such. "What a good idea." (notice her reaction.) OR "I wonder which is more effective, what would encourage people to give more, running a marathon or _________. What do you think?"
4) Motivations. Do you think it's easier to give on habit or out of love? Do you think it's possible to give out of love and habit? When people tithe, do you think it's possible for people to always feel generous? Does it matter? What do you think?
etc.
Just typing quickly here...it's what immediately comes to mind. Not sure it's helpful for you anyway...
Also by talking to them you can probably figure out if they are the types that shop all the time, etc., or not. What types of extra-curricular activities do they tend to enjoy? And do they do it often? I think you can observe these things and notice from conversation, etc.
Anyway this is only a quick response so feel free to discard :) Good luck!
27. Rachael said the following at 4:23 PM on Mar 18
OOPS BDB (24),
sorry! you weren't asking for ideas. you were giving an example to support the idea of the importance of people getting to knowing about one another.
nevermind!
28. BDB said the following at 4:46 PM on Mar 18
Rachael (#27) wrote:
>>sorry! you weren't asking for ideas.<<
Oh, that's OK.
All your suggestions are good ones.
Even better if someone were to simply sign up to go on a medical mission trip to Cambodia - and have those conversations on the plane...
29. Annika F. said the following at 4:47 PM on Mar 18
I really feel for you Emily (Post #1). I'm also going through grad school decisions while dating/courting. It's really hard to try to make a choice about where to get my PhD while not knowing how things will turn out with my boyfriend.
Even though we are dating with the idea of pursuing marriage, we're still a ways away from a yes/no decision on the issue. I don't want to make choices that rule out marriage, but at the same time I don't want to rule out a great school just to be closer to my boyfriend who I may or may not end up marrying!
30. Rachael said the following at 5:40 PM on Mar 18
BDB - yeah, or at a pre-Cambodia missions-minded BBQ that you could host.
Peace!
31. Kelly said the following at 6:33 PM on Mar 18
I too have a story about a male friend who singled me out, emailed me daily with cute messages, called me frequently and spent extended one on one time with me.
Of course I fell for him, how could I not with all the flattering attention? When I finally spoke up he said that he only saw me as a friend - a SPECIAL friend, but just a friend nonetheless.
Can any guys reading this shed light on this type of behaviour? It seems so common! Is it just that the guy is not ready for a real relationship but still wants those things (companionship etc) from a woman?
32. BDB said the following at 8:45 PM on Mar 18
Rachael (#30) wrote:
>>BDB - yeah, or at a pre-Cambodia missions-minded BBQ that you could host. <<
Yes - we have 12 weeks of team meetings coming up - I'm ready!
Kelly (#31) wrote:
>>Can any guys reading this shed light on this type of behaviour?<<
I dunno...maybe he had a woman do it to him...not that's it's ever happened to me or anything...
Not all women fall for it. Some just bask in the attention. I'm sure part of it is just the challenge to see if they can influence someone - catch and release, if you will...I'm not endorsing the practice by any means.
33. Sarah said the following at 9:03 PM on Mar 18
BDB: You are totally missing my point! Girls are confused because they don't know why you are trying to get to know all these things (such as tithing beliefs) about them! You think you need to propose or state you want to marry them to find these things out which you don’t need to do and I don’t blame you for not wanting to! However, you should be honest with yourself; if you’re wondering how a girl feels about the same things that you are passionate about it probably means that you are interested in her romantically. The next step should be to let her know you are seeking to pursue her to see if you both could find yourselves desiring to be married to each other after spending time together and talking. This is what makes a girl comfortable and willing to share things with you, as opposed to you instead saying, "I just want friendship, now please, tell me how you feel about raising children and tithing" - Do you see how utterly confusing this is for a girl when a guy approaches her that way? I understand you can't see yourself marrying a woman who doesn't have the same desire to give to missions as you do. However, the way to find out if she does is not to get to know her in a casual way that leaves her wondering what exactly you’re seeking.
I totally respect and would not be angry or lose respect for a guy who pursued me in the above way and then found out we were not at all compatible as opposed to a guy who tried to find out my personal beliefs about things when I wasn't even sure why he was asking in the first place!
A woman's heart can bend quite easily when she finds a man she respects and thinks she can love. I drive what I consider to be a nice car that I got a very good deal on - however I do tithe faithfully and have a strong heart for missions and would be willing to sacrifice many things in my life including driving a junker car (it’s just transportation!) in order to give exactly what my husband feels God is calling us to give. However, you would never find any of that out if you were beating around the bush and not willing to admit you wanted to pursue a relationship with me that was marriage minded. Remember, that's not a proposal! It’s simply a building block of trust so that a girl can feel comfortable beginning to share her heart with a man because she knows he considers her possible wife material. However, when a girl has no idea if you consider her anything other than a friend she doesn't feel inclined to share her deeper thoughts. I pray this makes sense.
34. Ashley said the following at 9:17 PM on Mar 18
I second Kelly (#31) -- guys what's up with this sort of behavior? Is there something us girls just don't get?
35. Ashleigh Winder said the following at 9:20 PM on Mar 18
As soon as I saw the title of this article, I jumped on and clicked the link to read it. I'm going through this exact situation right now.
This guy and I have been flirting with each other, and it's obvious that he likes me as much as I like him. We went out to talk about our relationship, and he said he thought it was too soon to start a relationship, because the school year is almost over, and then we will part our separate ways until September...bells go off in my head, and I'm like, "so, what's wrong with long distance relationship for four months?"
He said he just wanted to be "good friends" for now, and if we still feel the same way in September then we can pursue our "relationship"...
I was obviously upset over this turn of events, but dealt with it.
However, later in the week found him flirting with me as much as he was BEFORE he told me we weren't going to date. I was slightly(to say the least) confused, and I must admit, as much as God has given me peace over this issue, I wish he would just step it up. Like, if he likes me, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I know he knows I like him too, and I don't know why he doesn't want to take the next step and pursue a relationship. I don't know if he's afraid of commitment or what, or perhaps like Katalina(#8) said, he needs to mature a little bit more. In the meantime, I don't know what to do...if I should continue with the flirting, pretending that we haven't talked about anything, or call him on it AGAIN, and give him the ultimatum...
I really like this guy A LOT. I know innocent flirting isn't wrong, but I'm afraid if I let my heart get too attached, I might get hurt unintentionally. Both of us might get hurt. I think the guy should be the one to start stuff, but I have a feeling he might be just as confused as I am!
36. Rachael said the following at 10:29 PM on Mar 18
I think I'm going to boycott relationships. Just need a sign.
In all seriousness, though, I wonder if reading about singleness and marriage make it harder for me to let go of __________. Yet I keep reading...Anyway.
Sarah, like you, I hate limbo-land. My guess is that most of us do. I do respectfully disagree with you, however. I think it's absolutely fine for guys to get to know some info. before the pursuing. I'd much prefer it that way - get all the 'facts' out then proceed if the lights seem to be green, though I realize that in some/many instances getting all the facts out might require dating to get to know the person, if the people are unable to get to know each other through rubbing elbows in the kitchen or on a missions trip or what have you.
I think people can get to know the 'facts' or 'basics' in unobtrusive ways. It's generally easy to talk with people (that is, if you're in an environment that is conducive to such) unless things have been made unnecessarily but naturally awkward and complicated due to crushes and worrying about what others think yadda yadda. Or unless it's always one big group conversation. Or unless there are many cliques all over the place. Or unless the girls are in a huddle and the guys are on the sidelines or in their own huddle. Not always the case, but I think it can happen...hmmm.
But I think it can get complicated if people are trying to get the 'basics' out of each other when they simultaneously provide mixed signals or when that process is drawn out in limbo-land, which is possibly where your confusion might lie.
Remember, though, that it is totally possible to get to know someone's 'basics' and have absolutely no interest in them. In fact, you can observe these basics in Bible studies and in serving or leading together.
Peace!
Does anyone have any tips for how to view life as if they'll be single forever and be fine w/ it, even if they deceive themselves to think that way? I was talking to someone tonight (re. getting over someone; perspective), and she mentioned the need to consciously think about other things through God's power. Anyway if anyone has any tips in this regard I'd be curious to hear what worked for you :)
37. Kelly said the following at 10:33 PM on Mar 18
Replying to Ashleigh (#35) - oh, I feel for you so much! That's a TERRIBLE position to be in.
My take on it is that you HAVE to withdraw for now. You need to guard your heart because he's not wanting to commit.
He obviously adores your company but still has a thought in the back of his head: "What if someone 'better' is out there that he will meet over the summer?" THAT'S why he won't commit. You can't chase him or keep flirting with him because that will show that you're okay with the situation, that you're okay to be the 'backup girl'. And you're NOT.
You don't have to cut off all contact but you definitely have to spend less time with him. And stop the flirting.
If you're lucky he'll realise what he's giving up when you withdraw a little. And you can be equally lucky if God shows you that you and he weren't meant to be. You also need to think of future girls: if he's been stringing you along like this when he's not entirely sure, what's to stop him doing this to other girls in the future? He'll always say, "But Ashleigh was fine with a flirty friendship, so other girls must be too!"
I will keep you in my prayers because I have been in that situation and wasn't strong/smart enough to cut off the flirting. It continued for 1.5 years and in the end, he married someone else. :(
38. Rachael said the following at 10:36 PM on Mar 18
P.S. Sarah (33) wrote: "You think you need to propose or state you want to marry them to find these things out which you don’t need to do ..."
I think the idea is that if someone is going to date someone, they are viewing that person as a potential mate so they want to be extra careful. I respect this view. It seems natural that if there is the opportunity to find out and observe some basic things before this 'dating/courting' step that people would proceed to do so.
39. Sarah said the following at 10:39 PM on Mar 18
Ashleigh: That seems like a very unfair thing to do. It sounds honestly like he wants to keep his options open during the summer. If he really liked you as much as his flirting suggests he should/would be worried that you'd meet another guy over the summer and not be available when school starts back. I would push the issue and make him state what he wants. He shouldn't be able to have it both ways! Let him know you won't be waiting in the wings.
P.S. I'm not trying to paint this guy as a terrible person, he may not realize what exactly he's doing but either way it's unfair to you in the long run and has "heartache" written all over it if you ask me. Don't spend all summer ignoring other opportunities because this guy won't make a choice. :)
40. Frank said the following at 10:57 PM on Mar 18
I guess, this is a question to girls in general. To which extreme do you prefer the guy err toward and why?
- He's smooth, says and does the right things, but doesn't say what exactly his intent is -- dating to marry or just friends?
- The guy who is straight up about his intent -- that he wants to get to know you for the purpose of dating to marry. But, he's not smooth.
(1) has the problem that he's engaging you correctly from a social and emotional perspective, but you don't truly know what his intentions are; see comment in #31. (2) has the problem that he's communicating with decisive clarity what his intentions are, but he's not engaging you correctly from a social and emotional perspective; can't find a relevant comment in this thread.Which has better benefits? Which has better problems?
I agree; best that the guy understands how to both purposely and gently chase a gentlelady. But when the guy is a tad "too straightforward", it might honestly be a good thing. And seriously consider whether he is on the trajectory to being a good father and husband in time. Lots of other advice on what really matters.
My 2 cents.
41. BDB said the following at 11:31 PM on Mar 18
Sarah (#33) wrote:
>>You are totally missing my point! Girls are confused because they don't know why you are trying to get to know all these things (such as tithing beliefs)<<
OK, let's go with that example. A discussion of tithing can easily be about ideas, not personalities. I think the longest tithing discussion I had was in a seminary class. A few students, already pastors, were trying to figure out how to get their churches to give more; I was asking them questions about how they built financial accountability into their board, transparency on spending to their congregants, etc. This is not something that needs to happen over a candlelight dinner. But I will grant you that people who've completed graduate school are probably a lot more used to discussing ideas without getting confused or uncomfortable.
I suppose it's another advantage of a missions BBQ - when the missionary can introduce people by saying, "I'd like you to meet another one of our supporters."
Of course, given enough time "hanging out" with people, many of these topics might come up in group conversation anyway. It may require a few months - or years - of observation while keeping a tight rein on any "feelings." So I guess you can take your pick: be willing to discuss important ideas, or sit around complaining that a bunch of people who know each other only superficially never seem to pursue.
And this particular problem may be related to how my church operates. We don't pass an offering plate, people put their gift into a box in the back. So while it's easy to see who's driving the $50,000 SUV, it's a lot harder to know if that person gave $100 or $10,000 this year.
Heck, you get the same confusion when discussing home prices. Some people are extremely upset when asked how much they paid for their house - forgetting that anybody can type their address in one of the sites on the Internet and find out. It's public information!
>>"I just want friendship, now please, tell me how you feel about raising children and tithing"<<
Goodness, I can at least say I've never, ever said something like that to someone. That would be confusing.
Maybe I should just punt and say it was Rachael's idea (#26). No, no...that would be abdicating leadership...
>>if you’re wondering how a girl feels about the same things that you are passionate about it probably means that you are interested in her romantically.<<
Might just be curiousity...no need for "feelings" (or roses) to be present to be intellectually curious...but it can turn cold real quick when I discover someone is terribly shallow. That can literally be a 30-second conversation. Kind of like when a beautiful woman suddenly makes a really racist remark. A bucket of cold water. As they say in Aikido - "It's over before it begins."
[Note to self: use tithing and missions questions for speed-dating.]
Isn't it a cad who goes around flirting with women and then dropping them as soon as he has their attention. They've been around for centuries. Long before facebook and texting.
42. batman said the following at 2:10 AM on Mar 19
Ashleigh
You've got to have a high enough value for yourself to withdraw and make him come after you. Otherwise you'll be too easy and he won't pursue. Picture catching a ten pound fish with a two pound line. :)
43. Gituma said the following at 2:49 AM on Mar 19
This article really hits home for me.
Insired by the article 'Real Men risk rejection' I made a move on a girl who I liked knowing that anything could happen.
Was given the classic 'let's just be friends' but she appreciated my honesty though the thought of me and her had not corssed my mind.
I made the move sue to a need for clarity in my mind so that I could find the way forward. I don't regret it as my mind is now clear and I can focus on other things now that I know where she stands.
My advice to the men out there- Like Nike say " Just do it!"
44. Christina (in green) said the following at 6:07 AM on Mar 19
Sarah said it well. Out of context, a man asking me questions pertaining to my giving patterns would simply be creepy.
If a man began asking me personal questions outside of a defined "marriage-bound" relationship, I'd be very hesitant and weirded out. I'm normally an open person so that's sayin somethin =p
I'd almost feel like he's stalking me.
45. a sassy sister said the following at 8:38 AM on Mar 19
BDB:
You are correct in regards to cads and those who use relationships for their sole selfish gain and satisfaction. It is a lovely reminder that even though there are hypocrites and posers out there, it doesn't absolve my responsibility to demonstrate and display genuine character and integrity.
46. Suzanne said the following at 8:44 AM on Mar 19
Frank,
I think the post called "Good Date: Bad Marriage Partner" (http://www.boundlessline.org/2008/02/good-date-bad-m.html) addressed your question to some extent. Option No. 1 may seem like a more appropriate choice (laid back, congenial, funny, etc.). However, that doesn't make him (necessarily) the best choice in the long run. Option No. 2 runs the risk of scaring a girl away by being too intense and not allowing the relationship to develop naturally. I would say I probably RESPOND most to type 1, but ultimately, I PREFER type 2 (for the reasons you suggest). Thankfully, most people are a combo of the two.
47. Caleb S. said the following at 11:04 AM on Mar 19
#31
As a guy myself I really don't understand why we tend to do this. I don't think I have done it myself, but as I posted in another comment my roommate has. I think he was oblivious to what he was actually doing though. Either that or he enjoyed her companionship without having to commit to anything. But yet he knew she liked him but had no feelings for her. I should ask him why he did it and report back. Hopefully he won't mind answering it honestly.
48. BDB said the following at 11:16 AM on Mar 19
It's clear that there are different views about how much information people should put out in the marketplace.
But think about it - do you really want a guy to say he's interested because the shade of your lipstick matches your eye shadow? Or something more substantive?
For example, if Suzanne were to read a history of Aberdeen, Washington, she'd learn a lot about my grandparents and their family...
49. Ashley said the following at 1:18 PM on Mar 19
In regards to Frank's question (#40) -I'd rather have too much honesty than too little clarity!
50. Kelly said the following at 6:57 PM on Mar 19
Caleb S. said, about his roommate:
"But yet he knew she liked him but had no feelings for her."
ARGH! So often we (as women), in these psuedo-relationships, think that the guys have no idea how we feel and THAT'S why they don't step up. (Self-delusion, hoping for a happy ending!) But as I've grown older, I realise that's rarely true.
I would love to hear what your roommate has to say on this situation!
BDB said:
"but it can turn cold real quick when I discover someone is terribly shallow. That can literally be a 30-second conversation. Kind of like when a beautiful woman suddenly makes a really racist remark."
You would dismiss someone for one comment? I never judge people so quickly: if a woman likes you, she'll probably be nervous and say the first thing that pops into her head rather than showing her true self. I know, I've been there and said the most APPALLING things by 'accident'. I can only hope that later conversations with a person make up for that.
51. Kaitlin said the following at 7:06 PM on Mar 19
i feel for BOTH of you # 36 and 37!
I TOO have been in that same situation. I am not one to get my head all messed up over a guy but i became good friends with the "perfect" guy in my eyes, my parents eyes, my freinds eyes... But he strung me along for a few weeks but i called him out on it and he was quite angry with himself, never gave me a straight answer, and continued to persue my friendship even more. i was more confused than ever and spent many many sleepless nights trying to figure out a reason why he couldnt just BE A MAN and tell me that he liked me. i wasnt asking for full commitment or anyting. I just want the truth! so anyway..after 6 months of wrestling my heart and mind, i pulled away from him. I was giving him all my personality, time, love and getting little back in return. It has made my winter the hardest and most emotional that i have gone through. This is what i learned...
A little boy will run around making excuses for his actions, a MAN (which is what we want) will step up and do the right thing. after all, we want someone who CHOOSES US! not flutters around seeing what he can get. if he doesnt realize WE are the best thing....let him go, gladly :)
52. Becky said the following at 9:31 AM on Mar 20
This is the best post yet, Suzanne. You wrote what I think is probably the best summation of what the dating process SHOULD be.
"And answers to big questions are revealed through that commitment -- not apart from it. Sometimes the answer will be yes, sometimes it will be no. Everything doesn't need to be decided before engaging in the process."
It IS the commitment part that paralyzes me, but I think you're right. Apart from the commitment, I'll never find answers.
53. Darryl said the following at 11:18 PM on Mar 20
After reading most of the posts concerning this article, I have found that there have been very few guys perspectives posted (or at least, perspectives that I agree with) concerning why guys are often unclear when it comes to relationships. As a guy I believe that it is my duty to shed some light on the topic of clarity.
It is my conviction that there are two main reasons why Christian guys are unclear when it comes to relationships, which inadvertently results in leading a girl on and, consequently, hurting her feelings.
First, it should be understood that Christian guys are still guys. This should come as no surprise. No mater how spiritually mature/immature, old/young, experienced/inexperienced, a Christian guy is going to make mistakes. This is especially true when it comes to relationships. A Christian guy may genuinely believe that there is nothing wrong with consistently sending emails to a girl. A single guy may believe that there is nothing wrong with consistently spending time alone with one particular girl. To him, by no means does this mean that he is interested in her. True, this may be a little naïve. However, it must be understood that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with these actions. What may be considered flirting to a girl may not be considered flirting to a guy. This all has to do with perspective (a philosophical idea which I will not get into at the moment). My advice to the girl is don’t be a facilitator. Let him know what is going through your mind when he asks if you want to hang-out with him. Once you establish that by your perspective hanging out watching a movie = a date, he will be able to explain that to him his perspective is that hanging out watching a move = watching a movie with a friend who happens to be a girl. Though it is culturally expected that a guy should establish these things, it is naïve on the girl’s part to think that the guy is always going to make these clarifying statements. Guard your heart. This does not excuse the actions of the guy (which may or may not be appropriate), but do not facilitate him in his own naivety.
The second reason why a Christian guy may be unclear concerning relationships is that he is trying to protect the girl (and, yes, he is trying to protect himself). Personally, I believe that the guy should always be looking out the feelings of the girl (and this is a general rule and it does not matter if he intends to date her or not). If anyone should be crying in the relationship it should be the guy because he should ensure that he never hurt’s the girl’s feelings. This, however, often proves to be impossible. Nevertheless, the increase in little stages leading up to dating is largely due to the guy trying not to hurt the girl’s feelings. Instead of asking a girl out, dating her for a few months, deciding that she is not the one for him, experiencing a messy break-up, guys have found a way to avoid this entire process by developing new processes before dating. Through hanging out in a group for a while, and then talking on the phone and msn, and then meeting for coffee, and then talking about relationships, and then going on a date, and then asking if she wants to “date” him, guys have added these processes so that the likelihood of her getting hurt is diminished. If after talking to her for a little while on msn he decides that she is not the one who he should date then he can break that connection without having any real commitment. It must be understood that a lot of guys see a direct correlation between commitment and hurting the girl’s feelings when things don’t work out. For many, commitment is avoided for as long as possible in order to avoid unnecessary break-ups. Clearly, the down side of these additional processes is that they take time and can lead to leading the girl on. Obviously leading a girl on can be just as hurtful, or maybe even more so, than breaking-up with her. It must be understood though that many guys add these additional processes to the realm of dating with the best intentions in mind. My only advice to the guys who decide to add these additional processes is that you better ensure that you do not take too long to decide whether or not you should date her. Clearly, 2 years is too long to be consistently talking to a girl on the phone or msn; however, 2 weeks or 2 months of this can prove to be wise in order to build a friendship and discover if there are true feelings between you and her. Just don’t let it go on for too long. And girls, don’t allow it to go on too long if you see it as being potentially hurtful. Though the guy is supposed to protect the girl, sometimes the girl must protect herself.
I hope that what I have said has made sense and has been helpful. Keep in mind, this is just an honest guy’s opinion…
54. Mark said the following at 1:16 AM on Mar 22
Kelly, in 50, guys can miss it totally that the girl is interested- it's happened to me. I will say that this tends to happen more to younger guys than to older ones. The more a guy has dated or gained experience in how these things work, I think, the quicker he'll pick up on the girl's signals. For someone like me, it's not so easy.
55. BDB said the following at 9:44 PM on Mar 23
Kelly (#50) wrote:
>> if a woman likes you, she'll probably be nervous and say the first thing that pops into her head rather than showing her true self. <<
I don't think that my first response made it past the 501(c)3 filter, so I'll re-phrase.
Note that I said a "really racist" comment. That's not something that usually pops out when someone is "giddy."
But, unfortunately, I've overheard some pretty ugly things from people in unguarded moments. I imagine that at one time or another we've all heard people say things that demonstrated their faith was more of an act than a belief.
This is actually Biblical, by the way:
"If anyone among you things he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless." James 1:26
"But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my bretheren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh." James 3:8-12
56. Christina (in green) said the following at 7:19 AM on Mar 24
Darryl, lack of clarity isn't protection even if being clear causes initial hurt.
Trust me, having my pride pricked is a thousand times better than having my heart broken.
57. a sassy sister said the following at 9:44 AM on Mar 24
where do I begin:
bottom line, THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT A PERSON WILL NOT HURT YOUR FEELINGS, whether you're a guy or girl. While I do believe that we should be guarding our hearts from unhealthy attachments, I also believe that men and women need to be clear in understanding WHAT that really is. Guarding your heart does not mean that NO ONE gets in. If you understand how security guards operate, you get the following things:
1.) security guards only allow people who have met the qualifications for entering(i.e. they have met the standard of proof that they actually belong in the building, be it identification badges, keys, etc.)
2.)Security guards are supposed to have a trained eye in recognizing the behavior and details that show while a person may have the identification to prove they have grounds to enter the building, their actions show that they refuse to abide by the rules to STAY in the building.
to darryl (#53):
If you ask some women(I won't speak for all women) whether or not they'd rather have their feelings hurt by being clear about your intentions or the boundaries of the relationship from the very beginning, then you'd realize that not being clear actually creates confusion and mental anguish, no matter what your sex is. While I understand how you want to soften the blow of rejection to an interested girl in regards to what kind of relationship you have with them, ask yourself if you would want a girl to do the exact same thing to you.
I realize that it takes courage to express your feelings or to gently let a girl down. But a mature person takes responsibility for their own actions and does their best to say what they mean, mean what they say,and follow up with actions. If a person can't express their interest of lack of interest clearly, that's a clear indication that they have much growth to do in regards to communicating, which is why I ASSUME NOTHING about a man's interest in me unless he SPELLS IT OUT VERBALLY AND WITH ACTION.
Now that I think about it, that could be the very reason why I get hit on by agressive older men than guys my own age....Go figure!
58. Ashley said the following at 2:22 PM on Mar 24
"Guard my heart" -- I hear this a lot, but I'm not really sure what it means. A sassy sister (57) touched on it. Any additional insight?
59. BDB said the following at 6:50 PM on Mar 25
Ashley (#58) wrote:
>>Any additional insight? <<
The only verse I know is this one:
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
(Phillipians 4:6-7)
Sounds like a good question to begin a new topic!