Let's Talk About Dating, Part 3: The Harm in Hanging Out
by Denise Morris on 03/13/2008 at 12:01 PM
In case you haven't heard, "group dating" has become the spiritual way to date for Christian singles. This method involves guys and girls hanging out in platonic groups. It is supposed to help people build friendships that eventually become "something more." However, the reality is that this group dating mentality has morphed into coed packs of friends who never actually get around to dating. Consider Anna and Cody:
Anna and Cody are part of a group of coed friends hanging out at someone's house. Anna sits down on the couch, strategically leaving a wide open space next to her. Cody wanders over and casually takes a seat next to Anna. They ignore one another.
After about a year and a half of pretending to watch TV, Cody turns and asks Anna how things are going. She answers. They turn back to the TV.
The group of friends decides to hang out this weekend to go hiking. Cody and Anna are pleased that they'll see one another again, but do not let on. They are no fools -- they can't let anyone know that they are interested in one another! Besides, this type of group dating is ideal. There is no commitment and no fear of rejection. Perfect!
The whole "guys and girls hanging out all of the time but never actually dating" is somewhat popular in Christian culture. Sometime these group get-togethers are wonderful -- they allow you to meet new people, have fun and spend time with good friends. But, in my opinion, these group outings are not always good, for the following reasons:
For one thing, if you want to be in a relationship with someone, you eventually have to get to know them at a deeper level. Group dating can be great in the beginning -- it's a non-threatening way to figure out who someone is. But groups have a lot of people, a lot of interruptions and a lot of surface-level conversation.
An article by Jason Illian talks about why group dating has become popular in Christian culture, but adds that, when it goes on for too long, it can become hurtful:
The church devised the group dating concept because it recognized the futility and dangers of how most people date in American culture. With pregnancies, diseases, and divorces on the rise, they wanted to protect their flock from having similar heart-wrenching results. I can appreciate their intentions, but going from one extreme to another has not alleviated our problems. It has just given most singles a whole new set of issues to deal with—loneliness, despair, and confusion ranking at the top of the list.
I think that possible problems that can arise from co-ed groups just "hanging out" for all eternity is that it allows for a lack of commitment on both sides. Girls and guys get a lot of the emotional support that they would be getting from a boyfriend/girlfriend without having to take the risk of possibly getting hurt. Illian thinks this is a bigger issue for the guys:
One of the biggest problems with group dating is that it allows men to be passive. In a group setting, men can shun accountability and responsibility. They don't have to make any plans because someone else will. They don't have to be responsible for anything because it is easy to disperse ownership with others involved. And they don't have to ask any one girl out because they can enjoy all of them at the same time! Men don't have to be proactive leaders—they can simply be pack hunters.
Illian points out that marriage is not a group outing. Eventually it has to be two people figuring out how they're going to live life together. In Illian's opinion, one-on-one dating is a great way for men to learn how to lead in a society where they have not been taught what leadership looks like.
As for women, hanging out with guys in groups sometimes feel more emotionally safe. Dating and commitment can be scary because it's possible that your heart can get broken. We've been taught to "guard our hearts" (something we'll address in another post), and group dating seems like a safe way to do that. However, we girls often end up getting emotionally involved even without commitment -- group dating doesn't always protect us from heartbreak. And, when we're constantly willing to hang out with guys without requiring any commitment, we're encouraging behavior that allows for tedious, non-relationship relationships. No bueno.
So, in the end, I think it's great to hang out with friends -- guys and girls. However, as singles who want to move toward marriage, I think we need to be wise and intentional with our time -- including the time we spend just "hanging out."
1. Bonnie said the following at 12:18 PM on Mar 13:
Maybe I'm out of it, but I've never heard of "impotent" group hangouts among Christians. I got together with my husband by hanging out in groups at first, and I knew lots of people who did. Nobody just hung out forever. People made their moves, ya know? And fairly quickly, at that. One day you'd see a group full of friends and the next day they'd all be coupled off. Maybe we're talking about a real young crowd here or an ultra-conservative Bible college type crowd? Interesting post, even though I've never seen it happen.
2. DannieA said the following at 12:34 PM on Mar 13:
Maybe if you are talking about older people...in their 20s...
but lets say there was a teenager in the house and they want to meet a particular girl/guy...if they were my kid you bet they'll be hanging out in groups....no single dating for them for a while.
I think some people can initiate after group get-togethers, and some don't...I guess it depends.
3. Kelly said the following at 12:52 PM on Mar 13:
I think one of the greater harms in hanging out all the time is hanging out to the point where it becomes superficial and begins to lack real fellowship. The scenario that I'm familiar with is not so much a problem of using hanging out to not be committed, but hanging out without going deeper. Obviously, there doesn't need to be super spiritual things going on every time Christians are together. Just "chillin'" can glorify God just as much. However, I think the faultiness lies in when we hang out in groups over and over again and just let casual friendship and joking around become central to the neglect of building one another up for the glory of God and the good of the body.
4. obewan said the following at 12:53 PM on Mar 13:
The blog stated:
“However, we girls often end up getting emotionally involved even without commitment -- group dating doesn't always protect us from heartbreak. And, when we're constantly willing to hang out with guys without requiring any commitment, we're encouraging behavior that allows for tedious, non-relationship relationships. No bueno.”
“Non-relationship relationships?” I thought brother-sister was a relationship. Face it. Reality says that people are vulnerable to hurt and disappointment regardless of the form “relationship” takes. Why is it that men have to take all the heat on this one? Why is it you say women are the only ones with the chance of being hurt? And most importantly, where is it that “dating” is even mentioned in the Bible? It seems to me you are demonizing something very pure and good without good reason. “Dating” is part of the American culture that has been popularized by TV shows like “Happy Days” and movies like “American Graffiti”.
My experience has shown me that successful relationships can also be built by getting to know people through serving together in Christian singles groups –where there are YES group social events (outreach ministry to other lonely singles) and YES GROUP Bible studies where people can encourage and learn to pray for one another. People that begin “dating” from WITHIN the group setting have a BETTER CHANCE of establishing a “committed” relationship that would lead to a successful marriage than people who go on multiple superficial dates in an attempt to get to know people.
Most women I know or have dated would not consider dating me without first getting to know me in a group setting FIRST. Believe me, I can name DOZENS who did not know me well who turned down my offers of a CASUAL lunch date, whereas I can also name MANY who would call my roommate or myself on the weekend to ask: “Is anything going on?” Many of our intimate conversations in the small group social setting went until 2 or 3 am on some weekends. Nothing says that a group of Christian brothers and sisters can not be intimate with their deepest feelings and longings in life in a small group social setting – at least if they allow themselves to be open enough to become close friends. If people cannot be open and spiritual in a small group setting, then are they really marriage material, or would they also possibly be closed off in a one on one relationship?
It is the group setting than can bring the affirmation of others that is crucial to good matchmaking WHEN a match does occur. Believe me, it CAN work. It worked for my roommate since he married a girl that hung out in our “group”, and it led to no bad feelings or hurtful breakups among the other women in the “group” that he chose not to marry.
I had the misfortune of attending a well-known Christian college where the male-female ratio was 12:1. “Dating” for 11 out of 12 guys was not an option, so at least 90% of the guys did not even try. One solution I proposed to the student senate was a focus on group dating. It worked wonders in terms of reducing the animosity present between the sexes on campus. We had a fall retreat where the topic was focused on building healthy brother sister relationships. My dorm wing asked out another girls dorm wing to a barbecue and horseback-riding event. At least for one day, the “ratio” was nearly one to one, and we all took home some great memories.
I really think you are doing Christian singles a disservice by discouraging group dating in an environment where many women cry about a “shortage of men” or where in my experience (near a large military base) the opposite was true. On many weekends there, if it were not for “group dates” I would have had no dates at all. At least I learned to appreciate the women as sisters and learned to interact with them as opposed to treating them as some kind of “trophy” to be won, and building up a history of disappointments and breakups and resentment towards the opposite sex.
5. Daniella said the following at 1:02 PM on Mar 13:
I have to agree with post number 1, this is usually the case when it is a group of young adults who are not ready for marriage.The problem with dating in a group context is that couples have yet to learn where to draw the line when it comes to public affection and conversations. As a single, it is very uncomfortable and sad to see couples that are yet or far from marriage, not practicing what they have preached. If a couple is to come out from the "just hanging out" stage it should be because they are engaged!
6. Jade said the following at 1:07 PM on Mar 13:
Hmmm, interesting post. Reminds me a lot of my "Christian" high school where "dating" was the eighth deadly sin and groups were the godly alternative. Not surprisingly, after almost a decade post graduation, most people from my old "group" are still single, a couple decided they were bisexual, one got pregnant during Bible college and so on. Makes me so grateful for putting that group behind me and finding and marrying my beloved husband during college.
7. K.H. said the following at 1:14 PM on Mar 13:
Ok, I'm confused. I always thought that group dating was when two or more dating couples goes out together to avoid the possible temptations of being alone on a date with their BF/GF. At least that's what I've always been told.
8. Brent said the following at 1:24 PM on Mar 13:
I see this kind of thing happen all the time. I am not that kind of person so it was hard to run in those groups.
At a previous church I was at, we would have rows of people in their 20's who sat by each other every Sunday but they never became involved. Even though they lamented that there was no one around to date.
I grew up where my brother and I were the only young people in church. They way I hear some people talk about the lack of prospects suprises me, especially when there are several available young women (or men).
9. S said the following at 1:26 PM on Mar 13:
I think these groups you are talking about are the continuation of high school youth groups. Guess I'm curious as to when you think these 'hanging out' groups should turn into something more?
10. J.T. said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 13:
One reason I think people tend never to date anyone in their "group" is that more serious relationships change things. I have seen (though never directly experienced) absolute and total destructions of friendships - not just guy/girl friendships - because two people decided to become an item.
11. Paul H said the following at 1:37 PM on Mar 13:
This is going to sound like something from two centuries ago, but I'd like to offer a third option besides either group dating or one-on-one dating: chaperones.
At my church, the singles are advised that it's wise to not be alone together, and that they should consider having someone (usually it's a fellow church member) chaperone them on dates. Even the older adult singles do this. It's not a legalistic rule that is laid down for everyone, like "thou shalt never be alone with a member of the opposite sex." It's just wise counsel for those who are inclined to take it. I realize this seems quaint and odd to many people (even believers), but most of the singles -- young and "not-so-young" -- have welcomed this counsel gladly.
Also, we don't encourage lengthy courtships or engagements. Dating is viewed as being for the purpose of finding a marriage partner, and not just some purposeless recreational activity. So there's not a lot of pointless dating going on to begin with.
12. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:54 PM on Mar 13:
I'm not a big fan of "group dating", at least not in the context that seems to be reflected here. I've seen it go on, and--honestly--not much real dating goes on.
It seems that there is too much head-gamy stuff that goes on in such scenarios. That is very likely an economic dynamic that happens probably because one group (in this case the men) outnumbering the other.
(And I mean that in a gender-neutral/no-blame-game manner. Because I would bet money that when the women outnumber the men, the men probably play the same games.)
I prefer more traditional dating. One on one. No distractions. She can get to know me, and I can get to know her. I'm open to alternatives, but those haven't materialized.
13. Denise Morris said the following at 2:25 PM on Mar 13:
Obewan,
I anticipated responses like yours coming up, which is why I tried to be clear in my post. Maybe I wasn't.
I am NOT saying guys and girls shouldn't hang out in groups, have dinner together at someone's house, watch the Superbowl together, whatever. Tomorrow evening I am going to have a group of guys and girls over to my house to play games. I am not saying that hanging out in coed groups is bad.
What I am discouraging is doing this all the time for a long time. I've seen groups that become stagnant -- they have their group of guy/girl friends, they're comfortable and they don't move on. For whatever reason, no one ends up dating, but no one is really "out there" looking for dates either. Guys and girls end up getting emotional fulfillment from these groups, but people aren't really committed to one another.
Guys do not deserve all the blame for this. But where I often see (this is my experience) girls at fault is when they provide emotional support, great meals, quality conversation, etc. to guys for endless periods of time. The guys (probably unknowingly)are comfortable with this and do nothing to pursue girls (inside of the group or out) because they are getting the support they would be getting from a girlfriend from within their group.
For women who believe that men should pursue, this creates a dilemma.
Again, I'm not saying groups are bad. They're often a great way to meet people. Where I see negative things is in guys and girls hanging out in these groups for extended periods without ever moving forward. Or being afraid to just take the step and start an exclusive relationship because of possible heartache.
(Also, people, this is not just a teen thing. It's happening with people in their mid-20s.)
Hope this helps to clear some things up. Thanks for the comments!
14. Annika said the following at 2:43 PM on Mar 13:
Deliberate "group dating" sounds a little wierd. But my friends and I (who are mostly college juniors and seniors or graduate students)hang out in mixed groups to do things of mutual interest. It's not at all formal, someone usually just facebooks a bunch of us, or we chat after church and somone suggests something, and whoever wants to come does. Some of us are couples and some aren't, and some people end up pairing off in the group and some don't.
The point is, we're not friends so that we can "group date." We honestly enjoy eachothers company and have fun together. And when people do become interested, then they date/court for real.
Rather than foaming at the mouth about dating, I think it's beneficial to develop strong friendships without ulterior motives. Good friends provide good messages about eachother and emotional support that can prevent people from entering bad relationships. When young ladies know that the men around them admire them as friends, they're less likely to try to attract the wrong kind of male attention. When young men have female friends, they learn how to respect and support women. And learning to be a good friend is critical to learning to be a good spouse!
15. Rene said the following at 3:08 PM on Mar 13:
I am a 20-something female, and i have to agree with alot of what was said in the article. For several months my roommates and i would host some friends for dinner, or just to hang out- the group rarely changed- it was always the same people. we would stay up until 2 or 3 am talking, we would talk about alot of different things- spiritual, emotional... we all got really close. one of the females started to have feelings for one of the guys, but the guy had feelings for someone else. it got really messy..now we hardly hang out with those guys.
alot of people got hurt, and the friendship will never be the same again. i'm not at all knocking the whole hanging out in guy/girl groups. i love it. through hanging out with groups i have learned to communicate with men on more than a superficial level.
the one thing i have learned is that the group needs to change, it needs to do different things. if people become too comfortable they become complacent and that's when problems come up.
16. Jeffrey said the following at 3:14 PM on Mar 13:
Spot on Denise!
There isn't much motivation for men to pursue women when it is insisted to them that they 'hang out', 'get to know each other as friends', or some other such admonition that directly discourages them from approaching women in an intentional manner.
Yet, in the Christian circles I frequent most of the women simultaneously adhere to the 'hanging out' philosophy while making the complaint that 'men won't pursue us'. No wonder it must be a dilemma for them!
This is an honest question: do these Christian women truly not see the contradicting principles they expect men to act according to?
17. Lindsey said the following at 3:16 PM on Mar 13:
In the past, I have thought
"If I hang out with this group one more time...THIS will be the night so and so realizes he is in love with me!"
And we continue in this thought pattern - until two years have passed and despite emails, and texts and flirting and "I am praying about pursuing her" comments - he hasn't asked you out. So, guarding your heart and with prayerful hope in the future for whatever God has for you - you have to "move on" - realizing he maybe just doesn't like you enough to pursue anything. Maybe these guys just don't like the girls in the group and are thinking there is someone smarter, cuter, godlier sure to come around...
18. Jethro said the following at 3:25 PM on Mar 13:
Sitting on a couch is hardly dating. If you end up with a broken heart over that you need therapy, not a husband.
19. Laura said the following at 4:54 PM on Mar 13:
Obewan in post 4 said, "I had the misfortune of attending a well-known Christian college where the male-female ratio was 12:1."
I'm sure more than one of us 20-somethings gals are wondering how we missed out going to that school! :-)
20. Tara said the following at 4:57 PM on Mar 13:
"Rather than foaming at the mouth about dating, I think it's beneficial to develop strong friendships without ulterior motives. (comment #14)"
I agree with this whole-heartedly and this principle can be applied to our relationships with both sexes. Accept relationships for what they are. People can still care about you while not keeping you at the centre of attention. But you have to accept the level of emotional investment they're willing to give you. Learning this helped me subdue (while not totally conquering) many of my insecurities, jealousies and pettiness. When you stop worrying about being the most important person in another's life--particularly one of the opposite sex--than you're more free to give up the games we play and to share unconditional, Godly love with them.
And Jethro, I agree with you that sitting on a couch together is NOT a date but isn't there a more sensitive way of sharing your thoughts? Unrequited love hurts alot for anyone and for a woman who believes the man should pursue it may take awhile to realize that her hope and cherished dream for romance with him will never be returned. In the meanwhile her feelings have grown so strong that, of course her heart is going to get broken. It's happened to me my (un)fair share.
Hanging out with groups of friends is really fun and I endorse it as a great way of getting to know all sorts of crazy but awesome people but for adults who want to become romantically involved one-on-one dates are vital while maintaining connections with their groups of friends.
21. Dave said the following at 5:15 PM on Mar 13:
I think that you missed a key quote from the article (emphasis added by me):
22. a sassy sister said the following at 5:23 PM on Mar 13:
while I understand Denise's comments, I think that the problem lies not with simply the "group dating" example she describes, but primarily with the perspective that creates this confusion. I'll be honest. I used to meet guys and wonder in the back of my mind:is this the guy? Years later, I see the error of this thinking. Relationships were not made for my own pleasure and sole satisfaction--they were made for God's purposes and plans, to glorify him. There is waaaaaaaaay too much pressure in some Christian circles to try to create a relationship sooner than they should because they want to be married and have children so badly. No matter what is going on in Christian circles, they are still our brothers and sisters and Christ, and WE ARE ALL ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD for how we treat our brothers and sisters, whether it's friendship, dating, or unknown. What really needs to happen is to address the roots of fears in not drawing boundaries in relationships, having DTR talks, and simply asking without concern for being wrong or embarassed. It's much better to be wrong and get a clean break from an unhealthy relationship than to stay in blissful ignorance, thinking that you're interested in someone, when in reality you're more attracted and connected to your image and idea of what true love is.
sometimes I think Christians can make dating soooooo much more complicated than it already is, all because they're following a list of rules they learned in youth camp, instead of doing what God's Word instructs us in regards to our relationships individually and in prayer.
People, if you've liked someone for quite sometime, and they've made no attempts to CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY COMMUNICATE INTEREST IN YOU---cut bait! Actions will always speak louder than words.
I say this from personal experience. I have hung out in groups with a mix of men and women, and there were no issues because ALL OF US COMMUNICATED OPENLY, HONESTLY, AND WERE NOT ANGLING TO FIND A MATE THE SECOND WE MET EACH OTHER. How about we stop looking at people immediately as potential spouses and start looking at them (and treating them) the way God does?
23. Julie said the following at 6:04 PM on Mar 13:
Brilliant brilliant brilliant. Spot-on indeed. Denise, you describe exactly my experience with the co-ed 20's-30's small groups at my megachurch in San Diego. Two out of three anyway -I love my current small group and it does get close but I would be totally surprised if anyone moved past the bro/sis paradigm. Of the 3 co-ed small groups I've been in the last 3 years, the exception was this great organic mix of singles, young marrieds, and dating... until 2 of the 5 singles left, and the last two started seriously dating each other, leaving me the odd man out, at which point I left too :)
24. BDB said the following at 6:41 PM on Mar 13:
Interesting that you bring up that article by Mr. Illian. When it was published about 1.5 years ago, it gave me a vague uncomfortable feeling. Today I like it even less. Something just rubs me the wrong way.
Oddly enough, it may be that he's not intentional enough. One of his lines is:
>>Dating should have a purpose—to learn who and how to love.<<
Contrast that with the intentionality of Elisabith Elliot:
>>Dating is for the purpose of finding a life's mate - period.<<
Or contrast these two statements:
Illian: >>The normal model of male-female relationships is quite simple—you are either dating or you are not dating.<<
EE: >>Read the excerpts from biographies of a few decades or a century ago, when dating was unheard of. Read the letters from contemporaries, stories of a faithful Shepard's bringing two people together. No two stories are alike, for He knows His sheep, calls them by name, and leads them in paths of righteousness.<<
25. Paul H said the following at 8:12 PM on Mar 13:
a sassy sister,
I don't think anyone should start sending out the wedding invites after a first date, but if a single person would prefer to spend his or her limited social time and resources on finding a spouse rather than "hanging out" in some platonic buddy pack, what's the problem? Why do you have such an "issue" with people being proactive about getting married?
26. cookie crisp said the following at 8:55 PM on Mar 13:
"One of the biggest problems with group dating is that it allows men to be passive."
Amen to that, I think men get comfortable in this kind of setting and never ask the girl out. It seems like in a lot of the christian groups the men wait for the women to make a move and they remain passive on the couch watching the movie. Sometimes two people may be interested in getting to know each other on a deeper level but a lot of women just don't want to make the first move.
27. Marissa said the following at 10:12 PM on Mar 13:
This tends to happen a lot in churches where there is a small circle of young men and woman who are all single. They all get together and hang out outside of church as what? They don't call it "group dating" but is it dating when a two people of the opposite sex hang out? no matter the activity? especially if there has been questionable intrest shown in the past? If they spend a lot of time talking and getting to know each other via email and phone calls and facebook? is it fair for a young man to "get to know" a young lady and never commit? she has to worry if he is using her as an ego boost or just hanging out with her when he is bored. I am not comfortable hanging out in group settings or even one on one with the opposite sex because i hate wondering if they like me or not and wondering if they are a future spouse. it is true that we must treat others the way God does and leave the rest up to him. But back to my questions....what do you people reading this think? woman and men? Should the girl cut off communication with the guy that "respects her and loves to hang out with her" but then somtimes acts so uninterested half the time but then the other times he acts very interested. whould it be wrong to call him out on his actions? and if the girl were to question him and he didnt give a straight answer, the lovely young lady should cut bait? this young man obv. is still a little boy?
28. Bene said the following at 10:17 PM on Mar 13:
Jeffrey (16) said "Yet, in the Christian circles I frequent most of the women simultaneously adhere to the 'hanging out' philosophy while making the complaint that 'men won't pursue us'. No wonder it must be a dilemma for them!"
Well, if these are groups with whom you've been for a while and actually have friendships with these women, then have you challenged them on this point?
I know of far too many situations where young women have been put in compromising positions of being expected to be emotionally attached to guys who they barely know but who have decided that they (the males) are ready to pursue marriage. In my experience, it's actually much more successful (in terms of things working out for marriage) if relationships have a chance to be relationships before they are romantic.
29. BDB said the following at 11:49 PM on Mar 13:
Marissa (#27) wrote:
>>and if the girl were to question him and he didnt give a straight answer, the lovely young lady should cut bait?<<
If he can't make up his mind, don't wait. It's possible he doesn't know what to do; send him to read this blog for an idea...but you don't need to keep hanging out with someone who can't decide.
Though I note that sometimes women can't give a straight answer when asked a direct question, either.
30. Athena said the following at 12:14 AM on Mar 14:
Great post! Just what has been churning in my head lately. I've been part of a group of co-ed singles serving together, and this is a concern of mine whenever people from our group hang out outside of our official meetings. The different expectations that each person has can potentially create confusion and hurt.
I really think that many of the different views (up to post #28) are valid. It just depends on what your past experience has been. If you've been brutally dumped, been in an emotionally scarring relationship, or have suffered the pain of dating a non-christian, group dating for extended periods of time is welcomed because it can be therapeutic and be part of the healing process. There is no rush to commit to an exclusive relationship, and you get to enjoy the company of members of the opposite sex in a non-threatening manner.
However, if you're coming from a loving family and have little to no emotional baggage, you won't understand what all the delay/lethargy is about. You might prefer that the initial times of group dating quickly transition into one-on-one meetings with more intentionality. The group dating may be skipped altogether because you have nothing to lose - you don't have negative experiences holding you back.
Just a theory!
31. Ariel said the following at 12:39 AM on Mar 14:
Hi everyone, here's my two-cents' worth. I recently set up a Christian band, along with 4 other guys and 2 other gals. I knew most of the guys from an online forum while the 2 gals are from my own cell group. Because one of the guys (his name is D) lives nearby me so we travel back home together after each band jam. I find myself having to agree with what Denise said (in the following):
One of the biggest problems with group dating is that it allows men to be passive. In a group setting, men can shun accountability and responsibility. They don't have to make any plans because someone else will. They don't have to be responsible for anything because it is easy to disperse ownership with others involved. And they don't have to ask any one girl out because they can enjoy all of them at the same time! Men don't have to be proactive leaders—they can simply be pack hunters.
Because I've taken over the job of coordinating the timings of the band jams (which was earlier on done by D), somehow it seems like I'm in charge of making all the plans.
On another note, I've fallen for D some months back. I'm not sure if his actions are displaying that he does like me or whether it's just overanalyzing on my part. But I find that in a group setting (dinners after jams/band meetups), it's really hard to speak to him one-on-one because everyone else is talking. I find that I talk to him more when we're travelling home and it is during this time that we discuss about issues that are more in-depth rather than surface-level.
32. Laura 2 said the following at 1:55 AM on Mar 14:
Thanks for the post Denise! I'm certain many Christian singles are benefitting from it, however I have to confess I haven't come across this situation much in my own church (maybe the fact that I'm halfway across the globe has something to do with it!). Our church encourages small groups, or life groups - in order to build our church, we need to get smaller co-ed lifegroup with nine other people, all of whom are the key leadership team for our youth ministry. In this group there is also my fiance and another married couple, everyone else is single. I can honestly say that this group is simply to build relationship, grow spiritually etc.
However, I can see the danger of the situation you talked about - perhaps this is why as a youth leadership team we have placed so much emphasis on group socials in both mixed and seperate groups. Not only is this awesome fun, but it helps reduce the amount of 'group dating' time our young people experience. Not sure if this would work for older groups, but hey, worth a shot, isn't it?
33. Caleb Woodbridge said the following at 5:54 AM on Mar 14:
This seems rather odd to me. I don't hang out with my friends (male and female) because I might end up dating one of them. I hang out with them because they're my friends, and that's what friends do: do things together.
Often friendships lead to romantic relationships, of course, and that's how I met my girlfriend, it grew out of the friendship we already had. That romance grows out of friendship seems normal and sensible to me, but it seems entirely muddleheaded to see friendship as a means to the end of romance!
Also, it seems to me that groups providing one another with provide "emotional support, great meals, quality conversation" is precisely what Christian community should look like. I agree that it's important to encourage young people to deepen in commitment and not just to keep that on a superficial level, including finding someone to marry, but this should be *in addition to* the general support and care of one's friendship network, not *instead of*. Both are valuable, and neither should be a substitute for the other, and I think it's a mistake to set them in opposition to each other.
34. Jeffrey said the following at 6:43 AM on Mar 14:
In response to #28 - if women want 'relationships to have a chance to be relationships before they are romantic' (what does that mean?) then they should stop complaining that 'men don't pursue us' or making other begrudging comments of the men in their lives when they have their fair share of blame too for perpetuating the present noncommittal and stagnant social situation.
35. a sassy sister said the following at 8:30 AM on Mar 14:
okay, to:
Paul, #25:
You're making leaps about my position on being proactive in being a spouse--I am not somehow saying that wanting to get married is wrong. But preparing for life with the PRIMARY AND ULTIMATE MOTIVATION for being married and having a family is what I have a problem with. Too many people think that marriage and family is the finish line. I am not saying that being proactive about getting married is wrong. What I am particular about is METHOD and MOTIVE. It is one thing to prepare yourself to be a whole, mature person in God and in every other aspect of life, and your desires for being that whole, mature person are FIRST based on loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. IT IS QUITE ANOTHER TO BE SO FOCUSED ON GETTING MARRIED THAT you put intense and unrealistic expectations on yourself and every person of the opposite sex that you meet, immediately perceiving them as a potential marriage partner instead of seeing them first as your brother and sister in Christ, and therefore deciding whether or not they're dateable or meet the standard of a romantic relationship without really knowing them as your brother and sister in Christ. INTENT IS EVERYTHING.
I am not knocking anyone who is proactive about marriage. What I have a problem with is the REASON WHY you're proactive. You have a lot of people who have unrealistic and distorted perceptions of marriage and family, thinking that entering into marriage and having a family will totally fulfill their life, ending all loneliness and longings that they have. That motivation is the primary reason I've seen people pursue a spouse.
36. Leah said the following at 8:35 AM on Mar 14:
Hmmm. A few things.
1. I've never heard of this type of group which stays "just a group" for a very long time. Like Bonnie said, people make their moves.
2. The whole "group hanging out" thing (I won't call it dating because it's not) is TERRIFIC. I think of my group of friends from school- coed, nonChristians- and we are a great group of friends, but the 'relatationship dramas' that sprang up caused cracks in certain friendships. I love it that these same type of coed friendship groups in CHRISTIAN circles can just be friends without those cracks. And even when relationships do spring up, Christians (i find) often handle breakups better and the social cracks are few and far between. It still leaves a great group of friends. Denise says What I am discouraging is doing this all the time for a long time. I've seen groups that become stagnant -- they have their group of guy/girl friends, they're comfortable and they don't move on. For whatever reason, no one ends up dating, but no one is really "out there" looking for dates either. Guys and girls end up getting emotional fulfillment from these groups, but people aren't really committed to one another. I have to say I've never seen this happen. A group remain stagnant because everyone is getting all the emotional fulfillment they need? Not on your life. Half the fun of my social groups are the pairings that happen ;) (or that we try to make happen!)
3. However, it DOES leave room for "Cody-Anna" situations (although for that long?? I've never seen that before). But I think the pros far outweigh the cons.
37. sc said the following at 2:12 PM on Mar 14:
great post, great comments.
i'm 29 and have had a growing/changing group of single friends at the large church i attend for about the last 3-4 years. i've noticed this group dating mentality, even in 220 and 30 somethings. i think both the guys and the girls get kind of lazy. yes, we all want to get married. but it's hard to break out of the comfort zone of hanging with the same people. plus, often times we form these tight opposite sex friendships that make us appear unavailable to others who might be interested. about two years ago i realized i needed to branch out more. my group of friends had changed as a lot of people had moved or gotten married. i realized that i was in the exact same place. i don't want to be in that same place again 5 to 10 years from now.
i love my friends, and we are close and hang out often. but i've also started going more places on my own, or hanging out with coworkers or people i meet through other channels. it keeps things fresh and ensures that i'm always meeting new people.
38. Jessi said the following at 2:17 PM on Mar 14:
What exactly should we do, if "group dating" is ultimately unfruitful? If a woman wants to get to know someone better, but doesn't want to initiate a one-on-one date, what is she supposed to do?
I'll confess to being a little frustrated, because as a woman, I shouldn't initiate a one-on-one date, but I shouldn't count on group dating, and I shouldn't ask my parents to bribe someone, so... what's left?
39. Allison said the following at 4:24 PM on Mar 14:
The worst thing about a group of friends hanging out like this?
If you date a core member of that group and then break up - it's completely uncomfortable to hang out anymore. So you've spent a ton of time investing in people, then suddenly, it's all gone.
40. BDB said the following at 4:33 PM on Mar 14:
Allison (#39) wrote:
>>If you date a core member of that group and then break up - it's completely uncomfortable to hang out anymore. So you've spent a ton of time investing in people, then suddenly, it's all gone.<<
I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons people don't date at church. They use their "group" as their safety net. Then they take their dating risks outside that group. If their dating relationship ends, they still have a safe group to go back to. It's a way of diversifying risk.
41. Tara said the following at 4:43 PM on Mar 14:
Of course if two friends within a group start dating then break up things are going to get ackward. But are people really letting the fear of what MIGHT happen prevent them from pursuing someone they're genuinely interested in?
42. david said the following at 9:07 AM on Mar 15:
I agree with Allison. I wont take the same chance with the girls in my core group of friends that I would with a gal I just met a party or at church unless I feel cant date anyone else but her. For one thing, I know those girls really well, it would be like starting on the fourth date and I dont want to lose friend and unnecessarily mess up the group in the fallout. Thats not saying I wouldnt do it, (I actually have done it) but it is a lot less likely and a lot more risky. I think group dates (I think that term is stupid no one is going on a date) are a good way to meet other people. What else are you supposed to do with yourself if you arent dating? I dont think women need to worry about Christian guys never asking girls out though. God has given us a drive to be physically and emotionally inmate with one woman and that desire cannot be met in a group. "Group dating" can be one of many pathways to marriage.
43. Bene said the following at 10:04 AM on Mar 15:
In reply to 34-
"if women want 'relationships to have a chance to be relationships before they are romantic' (what does that mean?)"
It means to have a chance to know that they guy might actually see her as a person (which requires knowing a bit about and having related to her outside of "pursuit") rather than just a potential wife. You've no idea how romantic females can be. Many like to feel special, and that includes being desired for oneself.
"then they should stop complaining that 'men don't pursue us' or making other begrudging comments of the men in their lives"
I don't know women in person who actually do this. Again, if you do, have you actually discussed it with them?
"when they have their fair share of blame too for perpetuating the present noncommittal and stagnant social situation"
I think this sort of stagnant social situation may be more isolated than Boundless implies. The situations I see may need to calm down a bit in order for lasting relationships (marriage)to form.
44. Hillary said the following at 5:37 AM on Mar 16:
"But where I often see (this is my experience) girls at fault is when they provide emotional support, great meals, quality conversation, etc. to guys for endless periods of time. The guys (probably unknowingly)are comfortable with this and do nothing to pursue girls (inside of the group or out) because they are getting the support they would be getting from a girlfriend from within their group."
This doesn't just happen in group dating. My one-to-one courtship have dragged on for the fourth year and is still dragging. It may be because I have provided almost everything a wife would have (except physical intimacy), including building friendship with potential business partners and helping him with simpler aspects of his work when he's overwhelmed. He is self-employed.
45. Garth said the following at 12:25 AM on Mar 17:
This article is very interesting. From many Christian single women (not all, thankfully) and even some Christian married couples, I have heard the proposed truth claim made in this article that Christian single men are passive in pursuing romantic relationships with Christian single women.
I don’t accept this proposed truth claim and find the arguments made in the article misleading. I believe it is true that when a man is romantically interested in a woman, he *will* pursue her intentionally and she *will* know that he’s pursuing her. Christian cultural assumptions cannot deny nor overcome biology/chemistry purposefully created in us by God.
Placing on Christian single men the expectation/requirement to pursue and marry any available Christian single woman is pseudo-“Christian-ese” and anything “pseudo” is false. If a man is not pursuing women in his “hang-out” group, then he is not attracted to them romantically and women should drop hope of pursuit by him. It’s that simple!
Long-term relationships between Christian single men and women are healthy and should not be discouraged. God is highly relational with us. He calls us to be like Him, meaning we also should be highly relational with each other (brothers and sisters in Christ). Anything contrary to this is against who God is, promotes dysfunction in His family, and is false.
Let’s turn away and leave behind the sin of our present culture and our own false thinking. Instead, let’s work on loving each other as God loves us.
46. Clay said the following at 5:35 AM on Mar 17:
Denise, I think you've hit a "nerve" here. I've heard it said like this: "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that hollers the loudest is the one who got hit."
There may be occasions within groups in which Christian dating (pursuing marriage) is encouraged, but I feel these are few and far between. I recently told the minister in charge of our "singles ministry" that I think it will be a cold day down south before those within our singles group begin to date one another within the group setting. Lo and behold, those within our group who are getting married and even purposefully dating towards that end are meeting people OUTSIDE our group setting and bringing them INTO our group setting. I find this quite interesting and it supports what you're writing above.
We men simply must take the heat for this regardless of whether or not we feel it is our "fault." Why? We are the God-appointed leaders. Just read the Bible. If there is not a general trend of people within our group making progress towards the goal of Christ-honoring marriages, then the only good explanation is that we (including myself) are not exercising the intestinal fortitude necessary to get off of our lazy tails and quit being content with having our emotional needs half-way met within group settings that are further entrenching us in our singleness. Thanks for continuing to challenge Christian singles everywhere and encouraging action rather than passivity.
47. Becky said the following at 1:06 PM on Mar 17:
I'm with you, Denise. I've been stuck in the perpetual group dating scene more than once. Both times, I've ended up finally leaving the group because of lack of initiative on the part of the men. They were content to hang out with girls in a group and never step foot outside their comfort zone.
48. Lisa A said the following at 2:13 PM on Mar 17:
Garth (#45) --
You're right that in most cases, if a guy is interested in a girl, he'll find a way to pursue her, or at least indicate interest. Women do themselves a favor by realizing this and not pining after men who do not reciprocate interest or intention.
That said, I disagree that "long-term relationships between Christian single men and women are healthy and should not be discouraged." If a guy wants to be married, yet isn't interested in even one female in his current singles group, then he needs to at the very least get busy searching outside the group. If he doesn't, then he's not as serious about marriage as he claims to be. To cultivate intimate friendships (different from casual fellowship and coservice, which I think are fine to a point) with women whom he believes have no "wife potential" is a waste of everyone's time. Why create the history and connection only to have it inevitably severed somewhere down the road?
And ladies, we share our part in the madness. If a guy's not interested in you, don't give up what you don't want to give, whether that's time, information, affection...whatever. Good grief, how dumb are we?
Clay (#46), I'm with you. If a guy wants to get married, he should pursue marriage (and the women who interest him.) If a woman wants to get married, she should hang around the pursuers. There's still plenty of room for romance in the midst of this, isn't there?
49. Matt said the following at 2:53 PM on Mar 17:
It is way more risky to ask someone out that is in your circle of friends. There was one girl I somewhat liked, but we hung out all the time were co-leading Bible studies and risks to the whole group were so great it caused me great pause in pursuing her full-on.
About that time a girl that I'd talked to a few times over a year time span popped back up and I pursued her fully and it is going great.
Both girls that I have pursued over the last few years have been people that I don't know that well and aren't in my circle of friends. So, when it didn't work out with the first girl, it was a bit awkward because we'd see each other and had some common friends. But, it didn't wreck the close group/Bible study that I've established.
50. Rachael said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 17:
Lisa A (48)'s comment's interesting.
I agree with her disagreement with the statement "that 'long-term relationships between Christian single men and women are healthy and should not be discouraged.'"
That said, part of me would love to have a guy best friend and we both automatically become attracted to each other on the same day (not me falling before him anyway, selfishly) and then end up getting married. Oh well. But who knows...
Lisa A. also said: "If a guy's not interested in you, don't give up what you don't want to give, whether that's time, information, affection...whatever. Good grief, how dumb are we?"
-->Good point. Yeah, I was pretty dumb with this and so I must have the audacity to do it again (hopefully not though). Hopefully I'll guard my heart better if there's ever a 'next time'.
Finally, about her comment: "If a woman wants to get married, she should hang around the pursuers."
--> Just, :).
Anyway her post's fun. Indeed, the whole process does seem like "madness".
Good luck everyone! Maybe in 10 years you(we)'ll look back and laugh, or at least be better equipped to encourage others...maybe even a little of each.
I can see it now. "Sweetie, when I was your age I read this blog called "Boundless."
"What's a blog?"
"Oh...it's..."
*Peace*
51. Andrea said the following at 4:53 PM on Mar 17:
Oh, the joys of "hanging out." Everyone has had excellent points. I don't feel like I have much more to contribute other than the observation that my own group has gone through several periods of growth/change/shrinking (due to moves and marriage)/and back again.
We're currently in a pattern of shrinking. Several couples paired off, got married, and moved on. Those of us who are left might be frustrated with being single ... but we're happy together. It's an unspoken fact that all the pairing offs that will happen HAVE happened. But that doesn't bring us down. We have friends in each other. Good friends. Friends who will look out for each other and provide companionship. Friends who would pick you up if your car broke down at 2am.
Perhaps one of the nicest things is I don't have to sit at home feeling sorry for myself. Because my group is always doing something.
52. Tara said the following at 6:02 PM on Mar 17:
"That said, part of me would love to have a guy best friend and we both automatically become attracted to each other on the same day (not me falling before him anyway, selfishly)...(comment #50)
I just wanted to encourage you that your wish is possible. After yet another crush became obviously unrequited a year or so ago I vented this very desire to one of my married friends. She said this was impossible so I believed myself doomed to many months/years of heartache trying to convince some guy to fall for me. But God was good and merciful and answered my prayer. My boyfriend and I "fell" for each other at the same time and we had definately been friends for years first! It was like the blindfold was removed from our eyes and we saw how wonderful the other person was. LOL Though we weren't best friends. When our friendship began to deepen to the "best friend" level he asked me out.
53. Mark said the following at 6:04 PM on Mar 17:
Of course, girls should also be careful of assuming too much. I know that personally, I have tried hanging out with girls one-one-one...not to necessarily date them, but to see if we have enough in common that I could see it happening. But she (this has happened more than once) immediately assumes that I'm interested in her, says she's not interested, and any hope of even a friendship is lost. I don't feel bad since I know it was never meant to be, but ladies, try not to assume TOO much when the guy does make the first move. Even in group dating, a guy may not find out enough about a girl to decide whether or not they would be compatible...thus the desire for a one-on-one conversation.
54. Leah said the following at 8:35 PM on Mar 17:
Mark,
it's a bit rich to blame the girl of "assuming too much" if you've invited them out for a one-to-one event! That's a date, whether you call it that or not. You are confusing the girl so don't go around blaming her. It's not about women assuming too much "when the guy does make the first move". It's just that you're making the wrong move! Asking a woman on a date- which is exactly what you're doing- quite explicitly says "I'm interested in you". You can't exactly fault her for wanting to straighten things out and say "I'm *not* interested in you"!
If you want to get to know a lady, then for crying out loud DON'T ask her on a date! Chat to her at church or at a social event. If you decide you want to go a step further (note I said "step further"- this should never be the first step) then ask her if she'd like to get together sometime to discuss the possibility of something more. Don't just ask her out. That is, plain and simply, asking her on a date.
(And btw, you can have one on one conversations in social events and at church very successfully).
55. Leah said the following at 8:40 PM on Mar 17:
KH- no, that's like a double date or triple date or whatever. I have never really heard or used the term "group dating" and I think it's a bad term because it's misleading- it's not dating at all. But I can tell what it is.
56. Kaitlin said the following at 10:29 PM on Mar 17:
(MARK # 53) you said:
"I have tried hanging out with girls one-one-one...not to necessarily date them, but to see if we have enough in common that I could see it happening. But she (this has happened more than once) immediately assumes that I'm interested in her"
What is a date then if you don't consider hanging out with a girl one-on-one? you are trying to get to know the girl.... she has every right to believe you are interested in her!!! because YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HER! why else would you want to spend time with her? next time, how about you be honest with her and tell her that she has sparked your interest and ask her if she would mind taking the chance in getting to know you better in order to see if there is any potential for committment. If the girl is uninterested in you THEN you can say that it was just not God's will. Say if you JUST desire friendship with her, let her know your intentions even if they are just that you are looking for friendship though i think any young man desiring a stronger friendship with a young woman and claims that it they are "just friends" he needs to look a little more deeply into his real motives and how that friendship satisfies him emotionally in ways that maybe a future wife should only.
57. Jeremy said the following at 11:12 PM on Mar 17:
"To cultivate intimate friendships (different from casual fellowship and coservice, which I think are fine to a point) with women whom he believes have no "wife potential" is a waste of everyone's time. Why create the history and connection only to have it inevitably severed somewhere down the road?"
I think this is a ridiculous stance. The exact same point would apply to friendships of the same sex, as well, in fact, to marriages (they will be severed at the death of a spouse). All human relationships are temporary, but they can still be of enormous value, between the same sex or between different sexes.
58. Rachael said the following at 11:30 PM on Mar 17:
Tara (52),
Thanks for your response. That's so cool your boyfriend discovered each other simultaneously! Best wishes for your future. It's my ideal situation for a (perhaps future) friend to become my husband. Either a friend or someone with whom we really can tell a ton about each other's characters and beliefs and with whom we can be free to be ourselves.
I think I recently entered an 'unmarried jackpot'. Social events also happen among this pool of people. Not sure how many of these I'll try, but I just wonder, what if someone ends up asking me out without knowing me well? How would I respond? Of course this may never happen, but who knows. Guess I don't know what I'd say. I guess I'd much rather the serving together/friends first approach over the meat market one. I just want to fast forward and be done with this stage. I'd prefer to observe and be observed and somehow get to know about each other's beliefs rather than meet people through small talk, but perhaps people can get glimpses of character and beliefs through small talk and watching interactions in the tiny things. I suppose observation and deep conversations can happen in casual social settings. I'm not really into small talk about topics that I don't know about or am not too interested in, though. Should improve that skill, though. Need to learn how to be selfless in that regard. Not into standing around on a surface social level.
Anyway the pre-marriage, pre-courtship/dating 'process' or 'future process' is...*sigh*.
Too much thinking involved :). Too many strategies and attachment issues and concern about what the other person may think if I do this or that...
Is it best for some people to just give up thinking about it? Then maybe someone would just appear out of 'nowhere'... :)
59. a sassy sister said the following at 7:26 AM on Mar 18:
I think the key to help make these transitions not so difficult is to always remember the following: we are brothers and sisters in Christ; therefore no matter what direction the relationship turns, we must make sure that we are walking in love with one another, for God commands us to (regardless of how others treat us, because God's love is not based on our behavior or character)
I think the problem is that in an attempt to protect people from getting played, we've taken an all-or-nothing approach(i.e., either they are attracted to me more than just a friend and they want to pursue something headed for marriage, or they don't, and they friendship is kaput). I understand the need for intentionality, but I think a big problem is that NO ONE wants to be honest about what they want and how they feel.
Sometimes I wish that singles in the body of Christ would really grow in their brother-sister relationships with each other instead of entering friendships with the added pressure or hope that it could be more than that. If we were really honest with ourselves, these post bring up not just questions about hanging out, but really our motives and intentions for developing relationships in the first place. Relationships were not designed for our sole benefit and pleasure.
I'll admit, it's not easy being "the great sister" and "wonderful friend" to a plethora of my male Christian friends when they talk about a lack of godly women to meet. But I know that no matter what, I need to be eternally minded when it comes to those relationships, understanding that the relationships that I have with others really reflect the level of spiritual intimacy and character in my relationship with God. Because of that, I cannot be selfish. I cannot be envious, bitter, or angry. But I can continue to abide in God, walking in love despite the invisibility given by my Christian brothers(albeit not intentionally).
So I want to be intentional, but intentional about FELLOWSHIP, intentional about building relationships with both my brothers and sisters that encourage their TOTAL GROWTH, and it NOT to be about who I can see in the group that makes a great potential marriage partner. I don't know about you, but for me it turns church services and the fellowship of the saints into a tacky version of the dating game.
60. a sassy sister said the following at 7:57 AM on Mar 18:
Mark:
I've been on the receiving end of your situation TOO many times to count, at least mentally. Trust me, I've learned my lesson on that one, since guys that approach me are on the 50/50 scale: older, nonbelieving men who want a pypt (pretty young plaything) or men who are really angling to talk to one of my beautiful sisters(which I cannot blame them for, for they are beautiful, intelligent, kind, serving women).
So I decided to do something that would make it easier all around for myself and everyone else involved: TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR BROTHER AND DON'T BE MOVED BY WHAT THEY DO. Ladies, unless they explicitly communicate that they're interested, NEVER ASSUME THAT THEY DO. That doesn't mean that I somehow stop being a friend, I just don't place any high expectations on them or their feelings toward me.
61. Rachael said the following at 10:29 AM on Mar 18:
Sassy Sister --
Good for you to recognize the "need to be eternally minded when it comes to those relationships".
I guess a major piece to the puzzle is selflessness and wanting the best for others over what you want.
Now, if it were only that simple...
62. Mark said the following at 3:18 PM on Mar 18:
whoa, a lot of responses already to what I said...that's refreshing.
To Leah (#54), I guess I should rephrase exactly what I was trying to do. Say, a game of ping-pong or something super casual like that.
It is possible to have one-on-one convos but many different groups of people have many different ways of interacting. At some groups, what you're recommending is easy and I discover easily that she is or isn't the one for me. At others, it's not so easy, especially in small groups where everyone else can hear what you're saying (which is quite common). Of course, the definition of date is quite loose- I just graduated from a Christian college last year and more often than not, if a guy and girl were seen together alone, they were assumed to be dating when they weren't, which in turn, doesn't help the friendship.
For Kaitlin, I entirely understand your viewpoint and sympathize with it. From a guy's viewpoint, though, it seems to put a little too much pressure on both sides, especially since I tend to subscribe to the 'friends first' ideology. If I want to get to know a girl better, of course I'm possibly interested in her, but I don't like the idea of saying, "Hey, I'm possibly maybe interested in you but don't know enough about you to tell yet. you want to meet for coffee sometime?" I especially don't like the thought of her putting on a mask (which is what dating is) if she knows I'm considering it...I dunno, it just doesn't feel right. If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
Agreed 100% with you, sassy, on #60.
63. Kaitlin said the following at 6:49 PM on Mar 19:
MARK,
I understand completley how telling the girl while you barely know her that you are interested in her. That would probably be very awkward for the both of you.
Maybe (in the case where it is hard to have interest in the girl but not lead her on at the same time) under these conditions, Get to know her by being descrete in a public/group setting. Watch how she handles people and situations and listen to what she talks about carefully. there is so much to learn from a person just by studying them for a few minutes. If you are more interested than ever than by all means ask her to hang out but maybe the first time within a smaller group than the first and if things are still going good, make up your mind before she picks up on what you are doing. But let me add that us girls are smart and most of us can pick up on what you are doing.
I think that a friendship should be persued first though like SASSY #60 had to say. I agree with her 100% as well. That is something i think all singles have a hard time struggling with. its all about being selfless which is good practise for us unmarried people.
And of course last but not least, have faith that if she is the one for you, God will make it all happen in the perfect timing. Trust him :)
64. nicole said the following at 8:02 AM on Mar 24:
The title of the post is "the harm in hanging out" not "the harm of hanging out". The author of this post is not condemning the activity itself; obviously, it can lead to good relationships, whether they are platonic or romantic. It can foster good fellowship, I'm sure. The focus here, though, is on "dating" - whatever you want to call it, in Christian context, maybe courtship, there is not much difference, really - so that needs to be the angle from which to view the potential harm in "hanging out". I am 22 and graduated from a liberal Christian university last year. I have witnessed the problems that are addressed here. Really, those don't necessarily mean the end of the world... but they are problems nonetheless, and can lead to worse things. So kudos to the author for acknowledging and raising discussion.
It's the lack of intergenerational fellowship in perpetual hanging-out which contributes much to the problem problems. Like on the TV show "Friends" - their parents are hardly involved in their lives, their children are treated more like accessories or pets than uniquely created human beings, and they are all pretty much dependent upon each other for those ten years. They each take turns breaking each other's hearts in different ways. If it weren't for the immense popularity of that show and the carefully crafted cast (and script), viewers would never have bought such an unsustainable form of community and the show would have bombed. (Don't get me wrong, though, I enjoy watching Friends).
When people fall for the fiction of those plots in the media (shows, films, etc.), they figure it will work in reality. When it doesn't, it testifies to the truth in this post - there *can* be harm in hanging out.
See this article: http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/006/2.10.html
Niki
65. a sassy sister said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 24:
niki,
I think you are onto something when you point out the importance of intergenerational fellowship. I think that a big reason why sometimes these issues come up in regards to dating is because there is way too much demographic SEGREGATION going on in the church. While I believe that ministries that deal with people where they are in different stages of their life, I very much believe there needs to be balance in regards to fellowship opportunities, which shouldn't happen only exclusively within your own age group. When you only fellowship with people in the same demographic with you in the church, you tend to take a rather myopic view of life and relationships. We are the body of Christ, and that means that in order for us to really present ourselves as the family of God is that we must actually BE a real family. That means that we must share God's love and encourage each other no matter what our marital status is. That means that we share life with those in the body who may not be in the season where we are, but we don't exclude them from fellowship and relationship because they aren't. Bottom line: Christian single adults invested in teens and children, and married couples, invested in singles. The goal? spiritual growth, maturity, discipleship, and service in the body, not an attempt to try to "fix" the other person to change(which, the last time I checked, involved the person submitting their lives to God in hearing and doing God's Word).