Let's Talk About Dating, Part 2: Holding Out by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 03/11/2008 at 5:04 PM

I had an interesting conversation on a plane the other day. (No rudeness occurred, thankfully.) I was sitting next to a single, Christian guy (I know, how often does that happen?), and we began discussing the Christian dating scene. "It seems like the majority of Christian singles are holding out for something," my new friend said. "Like the guys are waiting for a pastor's daughter/cheerleader that just popped out of Bible college, and girls are looking for...I don't know, a guy who just returned from a four-year missions trip to Peru."

I smiled at that analysis. I'm sure each single could generate his or her own similar "fantasy." And true, this notion that something better (or cuter or funnier) may be just around the corner, has the tendency to paralyze us in the "choosing" process.

Candice considers this very topic in her article "When to Settle." She explains that when she began dating Steve, a friend questioned whether she might be "settling," because Steve planned to use his degree to be a small town principal. Candice writes:

My friend was a believer in the notion that to marry a man without certain traits or ambitions would be settling. And in her mind, settling was bad. No longer just a guideline, not settling was itself a goal. Something worth striving for. As in: Finish that report for work, lose 20 pounds, get a boyfriend, don't settle.

And so we find ourselves in the midst of a massive shift in marriage trends: women waiting longer than ever to marry, all the while holding out for their soul mate -- "the one." When a nice guy asks a woman out, if the sparks of attraction aren't hot from the start, she turns him down, reasoning, sure, I want to get married someday, but I'm not about to ... settle.

But this kind of "holding out" may be hurting us in the end. As my new friend observed," It creates this weird vibe. People are always evaluating each other like, 'Are you it? Will you meet the criteria? " That, plus the fear of settling may drive us to pass by perfectly good options. Candice explains:

Have you ever known a man that you've thought about dating, but in the end, ruled him out because to do otherwise would be settling? If you're holding out for perfection, or have a long list of must-haves, it's possible you're overlooking some good men who are already in your life. Knowing what about a potential mate is worth appreciating and what's just eye candy has everything to do with when you should "settle."

Choosing to marry a man — whomever he is — inevitably involves compromise (on his part, and yours). That's why it's not truly settling. It's just making a decision. Something we do every time we pick one thing over another. In most areas, it's called being decisive. For some reason we've made indecision noble when it comes to dating.

And that's the crux of this issue. We've spiritualized "holding out." And yet is there even one biblical character who passed up perfectly good marriage options in the name of not settling? No. Read Candice's article. She provides a great list to evaluate whether a person has the potential to be God's best for you. Then move forward with confidence!

Let's Talk About Dating, Part 2: Holding Out by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 03/11/2008 at 5:04 PM

I had an interesting conversation on a plane the other day. (No rudeness occurred, thankfully.) I was sitting next to a single, Christian guy (I know, how often does that happen?), and we began discussing the Christian dating scene. "It seems like the majority of Christian singles are holding out for something," my new friend said. "Like the guys are waiting for a pastor's daughter/cheerleader that just popped out of Bible college, and girls are looking for...I don't know, a guy who just returned from a four-year missions trip to Peru."

I smiled at that analysis. I'm sure each single could generate his or her own similar "fantasy." And true, this notion that something better (or cuter or funnier) may be just around the corner, has the tendency to paralyze us in the "choosing" process.

Candice considers this very topic in her article "When to Settle." She explains that when she began dating Steve, a friend questioned whether she might be "settling," because Steve planned to use his degree to be a small town principal. Candice writes:

My friend was a believer in the notion that to marry a man without certain traits or ambitions would be settling. And in her mind, settling was bad. No longer just a guideline, not settling was itself a goal. Something worth striving for. As in: Finish that report for work, lose 20 pounds, get a boyfriend, don't settle.

And so we find ourselves in the midst of a massive shift in marriage trends: women waiting longer than ever to marry, all the while holding out for their soul mate -- "the one." When a nice guy asks a woman out, if the sparks of attraction aren't hot from the start, she turns him down, reasoning, sure, I want to get married someday, but I'm not about to ... settle.

But this kind of "holding out" may be hurting us in the end. As my new friend observed," It creates this weird vibe. People are always evaluating each other like, 'Are you it? Will you meet the criteria? " That, plus the fear of settling may drive us to pass by perfectly good options. Candice explains:

Have you ever known a man that you've thought about dating, but in the end, ruled him out because to do otherwise would be settling? If you're holding out for perfection, or have a long list of must-haves, it's possible you're overlooking some good men who are already in your life. Knowing what about a potential mate is worth appreciating and what's just eye candy has everything to do with when you should "settle."

Choosing to marry a man — whomever he is — inevitably involves compromise (on his part, and yours). That's why it's not truly settling. It's just making a decision. Something we do every time we pick one thing over another. In most areas, it's called being decisive. For some reason we've made indecision noble when it comes to dating.

And that's the crux of this issue. We've spiritualized "holding out." And yet is there even one biblical character who passed up perfectly good marriage options in the name of not settling? No. Read Candice's article. She provides a great list to evaluate whether a person has the potential to be God's best for you. Then move forward with confidence!

Comments

[1. Louise said the following at 8:47 AM on Mar 12:]

1

Ms. Watters' "When to Settle" article quotes Ms. Gottlieb as stating:

"It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I couldn't find the above quote in Ms. Gottlieb's article...maybe I missed it...but this is a false statement.

Feeling alone in a marriage is beyond dreadful, and it is an experience that gradually chips away at one's self worth, energy, and lifeblood.

In this case, I am Ms. Koerner's lady from the top of the mountain (referencing her recent blog post about her family's experience climbing Pike's Peak).

I have been there.

I know.

[2. Jonathan said the following at 8:49 AM on Mar 12:]

2

So what happened with the guy on the plane?:-)

But seriously, good article. I completely agree that indecision and 'paralysis through analysis' are extremely common in the dating scene. Being a newly married (almost 1 year!!!) guy, I'm actually fairly amazed at what I now hear from single females in the church. I would say that about 90% of them have mentioned at some point to either me or my wife their frustration with how many single men they have known throughout their time in the church who have never asked any women out! Having been there I completely understand the risks involved if you ask a girl out and it doesn't work out in a church environment. If guys aren't careful it could fracture a group. However, sometimes I wonder if the females wouldn't mind even that alternative over the inaction and perpetual waiting that all too often seems to occur.

[3. Christina said the following at 9:50 AM on Mar 12:]

3

Well said, Jonathan.

[4. Alex B. said the following at 9:54 AM on Mar 12:]

4

I've been reading Boundless for a few months now and have yet to comment on anything, but I have to ask about the situation your companion on the plane outlined. Just how common is this attitude among young Christians? Frankly, if it's as prevalent as he suggests, then it's no wonder there's so little dating/courtship going on in some churches... If everyone were pastors, missionaries, and the like, then frankly, churches couldn't run; money has to come from somewhere.

There seems to be a trend I'm noticing among young people that are very active in church activities or have come from such a background (going to Bible college, etc.). Maybe it's because I've been reading sites like Boundless a lot more of late, but... sometimes I feel this horrible disconnect between "Christian youth types" (as my brain is starting to label them), and say, a conservative East Coast Presbyterian going for an engineering degree. Am I the only one who perceives this at times when reading Boundless and similar sites?

I'm not attempting to be critical here, if I'm coming off that way. I'm more just wondering how many other people are in a similar situation to myself, somewhere in the large gap between those who are only nominally Christian (i.e., the "I'm Christian according to my Facebook profile, but have uploaded pictures of myself drunk and inappropriate at parties" types) and the Bible college-going, working full-time in a ministry set.

Hope I'm not just rambling.

[5. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:34 AM on Mar 12:]

5

Suzanne: You are batting 2 for 2 on this one.

What happened to you folks at Boundless? All of a sudden you guys (and gals) are on a roll.

Louise took exception to the following statement:

It is better to feel alone [in] marriage than to actually be alone.

Louise, I don't want to dismiss your particular experience, as I cannot speak to it, and there are particular exceptions to just about every general statement.

It does seem, however, from a purely Biblical standpoint that--in general--Candice Watters is right.

I say that with the assumption of a marriage in which both husband and wife are believers. If there's a breakdown, then there's a spiritual issue and at least a possibility of some accountability.

Honestly, that's where singles can get burned: unless the single (and I mean this in a completely gender-neutral fashion) is proactive about being accountable at some level within the Body, their loneliness carries far more risks.

[6. Brooke said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 12:]

6

you're exactly right Jonathan. or the guys don't ask the girls in church out because they are all just friends and not "exciting" enough. I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones. I don't know if it's the challenge or the ego boost, but the godly women aren't getting the dates from the christian guys for whatever reason. we are serving the Lord and trying to be patient, but I have only had ONE christian guy ask me out in my 28 yrs. Yet, worldy guys are interested and have the guts to go for it. it gets discouraging, when you actually would be willing to "settle" as Candice put it, but you have no opportunity to do so.

[7. obewan said the following at 11:19 AM on Mar 12:]

7

The blog said:

“I'm sure each single could generate his or her own similar "fantasy." And true, this notion that something better (or cuter or funnier) may be just around the corner, has the tendency to paralyze us in the "choosing" process.”

The problem I have is that sometimes it wasn’t a “fantasy”. The ultimate women came into my life when I was between the ages of 16 and 18 and not ready (for obvious reasons) to marry. There was the pastor’s niece, the captain of the girl’s volleyball team, the valedictorian, and many beautiful non-Christian young women.

We all bring our experiences from the past into the present. My logic keeps saying if I could have hooked up with so and so back whenever, why can’t I find someone similar now? (But at an age where marriage is possible of course.)

Worse still are the comparisons to non-Christian women. They are completely off limits I realize, but I have had beautiful non-Christian women throw themselves at me, whereas some homely Christian women have spurned my offers. I am not saying looks are everything, but it hurts to be rejected by Christian sisters (in some cases when they accept the advances of non-Christian men) when the worldly women made themselves available. I am sure this is true for Christian women as well.

[8. Dave said the following at 12:34 PM on Mar 12:]

8

It occured to me that the word "settle" in this context has such a bad connotation. In reality settling means -to decide. In this society we often worship choice and this is just another logical extension of us worshiping ourselves.

[9. Matt said the following at 12:40 PM on Mar 12:]

9

At first, I was not encouraged by Candice's article on "settling" in marriage, because this is a huge commitment that I don't believe you can compromise on. Aside from following Christ and spending time in His presence, who you spend the majority of your time with on a daily basis during your life is, to me, the most life-changing decision I will ever make.

And, I know it is taking our generation a little longer to marry then past generations, but I believe this is due to more opportunities for women to excel in college and post-college careers (you can tell this by how many women vs. men are currently in college right now - 56-44% I believe), more dating choices for men and women through better communication tools over the internet, and more of a focus in the church on an individualistic development in God (as opposed to a more communal atmosphere in times past). This is not due to our inability to decide nor our unwillingness to marry early, in my opinion.

This being said, I'm glad Candice qualified her article at the end by presenting a few "non-negotiables" for her female audience (and I wouldn't mind if she or another guy from Boundless wrote a similar non-negotiable list for the guys too). To me, as long as these elements are in place, it will not be "settling" by any means. I just feel like God has a good time and place for me to make this decision (and for you too!), and when He knows I am ready, He'll open my eyes and ears to His Will for my life. His timing matters more than mine.

[10. a sassy sister said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 12:]

10

This is a good article, however, there are several points that need to be stressed:

1.) If we want to be truly honest with ourselves, there are some women(and men) who would still be considered "holding out" by many churches in America, even when you use the standard listed in choosing a mate. And as far as that list in the article goes, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between having the APTITUDE FOR GROWTH and DEMONSTRATING THE APTITUDE FOR GROWTH. Potential cannot be simply seen by one's view of another; it must be demonstrated.

2.) We need to be unflinchingly honest about ALL the WHYS of our desires for marriage (GOOD AND BAD)and be Biblically balanced in the way we address them. Marriage is honorable, but I'm not primarily choosing to marry someone so that I can finally feel like I matter as a person(or that the church can actually pay attention to my needs), or so I won't feel lonely anymore, or even so I can satisfy my maternal and sexual desires. I refuse to marry because other people think I should, because culture thinks I should, or because my biological urges say I should. I am aware of these desires, but they cannot be the PRIMARY AND DECIDING FACTORS for me to marry someone. You can call me superspiritual all you want, but I know myself well enough to know that I don't want to make a covenant decision based on fear(and I'm not talking about reverence and awe here); I want to make it based on God's wisdom, unconditional love,and unconditional respect. I also believe that in order for me to really be able to make such a decision, I need to be clear in understanding my worth and value as a woman from God's Word, and I need to have a solid understanding of my purpose and identity as a person. I also know that I cannot demand or hold out for a godly man if I am not already growing in God and allowing him to discipline me as a godly woman, on all levels. I've seen TOO MANY people, young and old, settle for spiritually immature, irresponsible spouses because they allowed their fears of being alone and not having children cloud their judgment, not to mention, waste time twiddling their hands. Those who think marriage solves the loneliness issue, think again---there are lots of lonely people in relationships, in marriages, and most people looking on the outside would think that they were never experiencing loneliness.

2.) I see nothing wrong with people desiring marriage. What I am troubled by is when we allow our insecurities, fears and social pressures to magnify the desire so much that we ignore what God is telling us do right now with our lives, and we obssess about the future without taking care of the needs of the day. I've seen it played out in both extremes: the woman who focuses solely on getting married and having children so much that you never hear her talk about her faith except when it's used to support her obsession with marriage and family.

OR

the woman who wallows extensively in self-pity so much that she misses opportunities TO BE PRODUCTIVE as a woman of God, PERIOD(i.e., she is so busy complaining about the lack of available prospects that she fails to be a good steward of the gifts, time, and relationship that God has given her RIGHT NOW). Please understand preparing for marriage is not wrong, but I always thought that when you are a responsible, mature person walking with God(based out of love, obedience and reverence for God) then you prepare yourself for marriage, rather than when you see marriage as THE ULTIMATE FINISH LINE(translation: my life will finally make sense when I get married and have kids)and run the race to the altar as fast as you can.

3.) In our criteria for marrying and choosing a mate, we must understand that in order for it to be done successfully, we cannot force the creation of relationships that are not there. If he/she isn't interested, learn from it and keep it moving! Just because a person isn't attracted to doesn't always mean that you need to find someone or something to blame for that disappointment; it could mean that there are certain lessons that you need to learn ALONE before you choose to marry.

[11. Jeffrey said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 12:]

11

When it comes to dating I am reminded of a pithy little remark that goes a long way toward summarizing the paralysis Christian men and women seem to be encountering these days:

"Don’t let the better become the enemy of the good."

I think that nowadays with the relatively new formation of a social structure far and away more egalitarian than any previous generation, there has arisen in relationships between men and women a number of hugely inflated expectations of each other that do not correlate with reality. This arrangement blinds us from noticing the good and virtuous qualities in those around us out of deference to some kind of idealistic wonder-man or woman who will grant the perfect level of comfort, safety and satisfaction in a relationship. This is all wistfully manifested in the social dynamics that most of us live according to ("friends first", etc.) as way to give the present social habits of young adults some kind of tenuously spiritual justification.

Much of the present situation is caused not by a lack of men, women, or some otherwise convenient circumstance that could be blamed, but is probably due to good old fashioned spoiling and pickiness.

[12. Anna said the following at 1:03 PM on Mar 12:]

12

I think sometimes we hold out too long, and other times we don't hold out long enough. It is a balance and we need to consider whether we're being wise or not.

So Suzanne... did the guy ask you for your number? :)

[13. Rachel said the following at 1:05 PM on Mar 12:]

13

I have to admit, the concept of knowing multiple Christian singles, having the opportunity to date and not doing so because you might be "settling" is truly mystifying to me. I live in a medium-sized city. I go to a decently-sized church. (approaching 400 people) I am one of 4--count them, 4--singles. Three of us are woman and the lone man has declared his determination to stay single until after completing his degree.

I've read the articles on Boundless, I've read the blogs. There are many encouragements to move forward, to find your mate. But not many articles address what happens when there are absolutely none to be had.

So, all of you who have the chance to not "hold back" and to pursue a relationship, be openminded and go for it. Believe me--there are those who would like to take your place.

[14. Andrew said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 12:]

14

Jonathan said: Having been there I completely understand the risks involved if you ask a girl out and it doesn't work out in a church environment.

I completely agree that there are risks involved. This is why I wonder how so many people can say that it is a good idea to date somebody from church.

First, there is the risk that, if you allow for the possibility of dating somebody from church, you will go to church to meet people of the opposite sex rather than to learn about God and worship him.

Also, if things do not work out, then you have to see that person at church or go to a different church. Of course, a similar problem could arise if you date somebody from another place that you frequent.

It seems, then, that the only remaining option is to date people that you meet at places that you never go. This would present obvious problems. Does anyone have any thoughts on this conundrum?

[15. Louise said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 12:]

15

Amir, with all due respect to both your opinions and those of Ms. Watters, I am the veteran of a bad marriage.

To the best of my knowledge, you and Ms. Watters are not and believe me when I say I wouldn't want either of you or anyone else on this earth to go through the years of he-- that I went through.

The belief that being alone in a marriage is better than actually being alone is simply not true.

I have been there.

I know.

I may be an outsider here due to my secular worldview, but this is a matter that I am familiar with due to personal experience.

If you choose not to believe me, that is of course your right.

:)

May the higher power bless you.

I will not be posting another comment re this subject. It brings up too many painful memories.

[16. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:45 PM on Mar 12:]

16

Louise:

I absolutely believe your experience. This is why I differentiated between particular and general.

Something can be logically true in general terms, while not applying in every specific case.

In addition, I qualified my case with respect to a Christian married to a fellow Christian and did not apply that to the context in which one or both partners are not Christian.

[17. BDB said the following at 1:57 PM on Mar 12:]

17

Brooke (#6) said:

>>Yet, worldy guys are interested and have the guts to go for it. <<

Obewan (#7) said:

>>but I have had beautiful non-Christian women throw themselves at me, <<

Yes...it's very interesting...both non-Christian men and women are more aggressive about showing interest. It doesn't necessarily mean sex, either. Many Christian women seem to refuse lunch with any man they're not ready to marry. Non-Christian women don't have this hang-up. And frankly, if a Christian man sets physical boundaries, even non-Christian women seem to appreciate not having to fight him off.

Aside from non-Christians being more aggressive, there is the dynamic of women who travel in a pack and compare notes.

I once had lunch plans with a women, who then cancelled because her sister (who'd never met me) thought it was inappropriate because we volunteered in the same ministry. A few months later I was introduced to this sister. Is it worth the effort to try and win her over? Or should they both written off as being unrealistic?

(Ironically, I had a non-Christian woman invite me to lunch a few days later. I paid.)

As Christina (in green) wrote in a different thread, I do think it's inappropriate to sit in a Bible study and complain that there is no one suitable "available," when such people are sitting in the same room. I've seen both men and women do this.

Come to think of it, my pastor's daughter DOES kind of look like a cheerleader, even though she's now a nurse leading medical missions trips. She was just telling me why she broke up with the guy she was dating...what was that reason again...

[18. Kay said the following at 1:57 PM on Mar 12:]

18

OK, here's a situation. I am dating a guy right now who meets all the qualifications on the list in Candice's post. We've been dating 4 months. And I'm about to end it. Mainly because as much as I TRY to have more than friendship feelings for him I just can't. There's a lot about his personality that annoys me and even though I still enjoy the time we spend together to a point I can kind of take it or leave it. And I don't want to marry him. But is the article saying that I need to anyway? That if he meets those Godly requirements nothing else should matter?

[19. Patrick said the following at 2:09 PM on Mar 12:]

19

So, what happened with the guy on the plane? ;-)

[20. BDB said the following at 2:14 PM on Mar 12:]

20

Amir (#16) wrote:

>>Something can be logically true in general terms, while not applying in every specific case.<<

No, Louise is right. It's generally not true. Adultery happens in part due to neglect of one spouse for the needs of another. They think, "why not? My spouse doesn't care about my needs." As my pastor would say, "There's no life there." But there are lots of people who expect marriage to cure their loneliness who discover that it does not, and all sorts of problems result. Ask anyone who counsels couples.

[21. Christina said the following at 2:30 PM on Mar 12:]

21

Andrew - did it ever occur to you that church is about having relationships with believers as much as building ur relationshp with God?

That always bothered me in youth group and youth retreats, where the pastors constantly said "we're here to learn about God, not for socializing". Well, buddy, you got it half right.

And seriously, having that attitude is more damaging than letting them build relationships and socialize in an atmosphere where the youth pastor and other adults can teach them about the GODLY way of pursuing relationships with their peers.

No man is an island...and we weren't created to be an island. We were created to need God AND others. God first, of course.

[22. Patrick said the following at 2:34 PM on Mar 12:]

22

Hi Kay,

I don't think the article is saying you "need" to marry anyone you don't genuinely want to marry. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the article is more geared towards Christian singles who are either (1) prone to weighing "lesser" qualities (e.g. looks) in a potential spouse above "greater" qualities (e.g. godliness), or (2) prone to have an overly demanding and/or extra-biblical checklist for what to look for in a potential spouse. From what I understand, I don't think the article is implying you "need" to marry someone you don't genuinely want to marry.

Although, I should add, there's something to be said for the sort of love that grows over time from friendship to romance. As Gen. 24:67 reads: "Then Isaac brought her into the tent of Sarah his mother and took Rebekah, and she became his wife, and he loved her." I don't know if every biblical commentator would agree, but I have heard some say that it was after Rebekah "became his wife" that Isaac "loved her." Even if this isn't true, though, I do think in cases such as yours that it's possible for your feelings for your current boyfriend to warm over time into romantic feelings, like cold soup warming up to hot soup. But that's up to you to determine. In other words, I'm not at all suggesting you should wait it out and see if your current boyfriend grows on you or whatever. Maybe you're totally right to break it off with him right now. But it's just something else to consider.

By the way, this was hard for me to write, because a godly Christian girl recently broke up with me for essentially, I believe, the same or at least very similar reasons to what you're going through with your current boyfriend. We dated or courted for roughly the same amount of time you and your boyfriend have been dating, but she just didn't see me as anymore than a friend. However, as sad as it is for me to say now, I totally respect her decision, and do believe she made the right one for her at this point in her life.

patrick

[23. Christina said the following at 2:44 PM on Mar 12:]

23

About the dating within the christian community (meaning, church family, bible studies, etc), I don't think there would be anything wrong with it (even if things did go sour) if there was nothing inappropriate about the relationship and how it ended and both parties are adults about the relationship.

Finding a spouse within the local church community has always been the the staple for finding a good christian spouse. You are surrounded by people that know you both well, you are not isolated, and your relationship becomes part of the community. Even if things don't work out, there exists strong, christian support for both of you that will come to your aid and pray for you. This seems like the ideal place to date (with the purpose of marrying).

Honestly, if you can't handle it, maybe ur not ready to date.

[24. Esther416 said the following at 3:00 PM on Mar 12:]

24

Would it be considered holding out if I rejected a guy for the following reasons:
1. he is only an acquiantance(we only see eachother at bible study)
2. I had no feelings other than a general concern that one would feel towards any human being
3. My close friends and my dad (whom the guy wanted my permission ask to court me but had never met) advised me to turn him down?

Where does one's own heart come in? Shouldn't we be waiting for God's best? I think that there is an assumption that because a girl does not accpet the first or second guy who asks her out she somehow has unrealistic expectations. If a person has a heart for missions and that is God's plan then why wouldn't a woman wait for a missions minded guy? I have friend who is 27 and seems almost certain that God is leading her towards missions in Vietnam, she has always said that she would want a guy that has the same heart.

[25. Patrick said the following at 3:03 PM on Mar 12:]

25

Hi Kay,

Also, regarding what you said about your boyfriend's personality annoying you. I wonder if it's possible that your boyfriend doesn't generally really have an "annoying" personality, but that it's annoying to you now because your feelings for him are conflicted (friendship vs. romance)? And so his personality starts to grate on you even though it probably wouldn't normally grate on you if you had, for example, never dated but simply been friends?

My sister once told me about one of her ex-boyfriends that she broke up with. She told me that, even though now in retrospect she can see that he was a great guy, with a fun and loving personality, at the time because she really wasn't into him at all, a lot of the things he would do or say would annoy her or bug her in some way. It wasn't due to anything in him, per se, but it was primarily because she was struggling with her own feelings about him. And I've heard similar stories from others (and I've also experienced the same myself in past relationships). Today, thankfully, both my sister and her ex-boyfriend are happily married (to other people), so she can look back at this with more objectivity than when she was in the relationship, when she could really only see things through the subjective lense of the feelings that she was struggling with at the time.

Just a thought?

patrick

[26. DannieA said the following at 3:19 PM on Mar 12:]

26

There is a Cuban saying that goes something like this: (well my parents are cuban and my family all knows what this means)

"Es mejor estar solo que mal acompanado"

please excuse the fact that I can't put the squiggly line on the last word on the 'n'.

It means 'it is better to be alone than in a bad companionship' usually referred for dating/married purposes.

I believe that with all my heart. That being said, I don't think we should be unrealistic (back to part 1) about a good person that is here and now...and no we shouldn't 'settle'...

[27. Jethro said the following at 4:21 PM on Mar 12:]

27

I actually read that article in the Atlantic and believe me it is pretty depressing. I would hardly be holding it up as a good example of what people should do.

Everyone must settle to some extent because we must all be acutely aware that no person is perfect, but there is a difference between accepting a person's faults and loving them anyway, and settling for someone who you don't really love at all.

Suzanne - did anything happen with your new friend? Date maybe?

[28. Kathryn said the following at 5:22 PM on Mar 12:]

28

I would like to weigh in the on the "It is better to feel alone [in] marriage than to actually be alone." statement.

What do we mean by alone? Do we merely mean the opposite of married? In which case, I personally would take "being alone" than alone in marriage.

The way I see it, if I'm alone, I'm not really because I still have my relationship with God to sustain me. He is my sole provider and the giver of all my needs. He hears my prayer and I am held in the palm of His hand.

If I'm married and feeling alone in that, then God isn't my only support. My husband is meant to be supporting me in everything (just as I am meant to be support him in everything) but he isn't (if I'm feeling alone). To have that kind of emotional dependence on him and then him not giving me that support, I imagine would be terrible. God would still be present in that relationship, I've no doubt, but not having support from my own husband would be rather destructive to my own self worth and self esteem.

I would pick alone, rather than alone in marriage. That being said, I will still take the risk of marriage if I believe that I'm marrying a good and Godly man.

An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 1 Corinthians 7:34

[29. Katie B said the following at 5:37 PM on Mar 12:]

29

Kay, I was in the same position about a year ago, though I held out for a bit longer, my conflicted feelings just increased to the point I no longer wanted to be around him at all, but as soon as I broke up with him he got a whole lot more attractive, since I could then look at him as simply a person, not having the question 'is he the right one?' pressing down on me.
I agree with Patrick and Matt, the checklist isnt all there is, you have to like the guy enough to want him around every day for the rest of your life.

Aside: As a girl in my early 20s who has been one to turn down several guys who are trying to pursue me, then complain that there arent enough 'good christian guys' out there, I'd like to say something. Its not because I set my sights to high, its because I have that non negotiable list, which is mostly what candice posted, but the way guys pursue me is either very immature or shows that they do not care to be spiritual leaders in the relationship, often the manner of their 'courtship' violates some of the non negotiables. I have my own issues to work on, girls tend to, but guys need to step it up, not in frequency or boldness, but in maturaty, wisdom, and brotherly love.

[30. Shannon said the following at 5:44 PM on Mar 12:]

30

from andrew:
"Also, if things do not work out, then you have to see that person at church or go to a different church. Of course, a similar problem could arise if you date somebody from another place that you frequent.

It seems, then, that the only remaining option is to date people that you meet at places that you never go. This would present obvious problems. Does anyone have any thoughts on this conundrum?"

This is really not that melodramatic. The thing is to be an adult! All relationships end, until one doesn't. So you go to the same church after a breakup: say hello! Nod and smile! This fear of tension, of awkwardness, and of discomfort is really too much. Life is uncomfortable sometimes, but you have to risk it in order to get the good stuff!

[31. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 12:]

31

Esther: If your parents are not favorable toward the relationship, that is--more often than not--a big-time red flag.

(That's not a blanket statement for all cases, but rather a general rule. Honoring mother and father is still a valid command, even in adulthood.)

I would still give strong consideration to what my dad--who is not a Christian--has to say.

More than likely, he would be very favorable to whatever choice I was making in this area--he wants me to find a wife as badly as I want to find one--so if he told me he thought I was stepping in it, I would listen very carefully to what he has to say.

[32. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 6:05 PM on Mar 12:]

32

BdB,
Love hearing your stories. They crack me up every time. Loved the one about the flaming Mazda in the car park. Guess it would make it easier to spot where you’d left it. I had some trashy cars when I was younger, but they never went up in flames.

Back on topic: I do think that church culture can work against guys being proactive. Sometimes this is “holding out” and sometimes it is not. Relationship dynamics within the church can be threatened by guys asking girls out. I personally found it easier to approach women at college. It was somehow less hard to ask them out. If they turned you down, the “group” was more fluid and seemed to cope with it better, as many students belonged to different churches.

The nature of college and the opportunities to talk about what you are studying, what you want to do when you graduate, and so on, made it an ideal environment to ponder compatibility, intent and direction. Missions minded people who go to bible colleges do the same thing. Assess who people are and where they intend on going with their lives.

Are people holding out? Maybe. Sociologists talk about the rise of the “options” generation, holding back on making choices because something new and different may come along. Be it a better job, church, or date … “settling” is seen as second-rate. But we also remember that a changed job market means it takes longer to educate ourselves, and the age at which we can support ourselves (and a family, by extension) is pushed further out.

The logical conclusion of course is that in some ways we are “holding out” and in some ways we aren’t. Assuming we are self-supporting, then holding out for the mythical soul mate is one way to miss out on the blessing of a good marriage. But marrying inappropriately, or too young, or for the wrong reasons is another way to (unnecessarily) complicate your life.

It seems that finding the right balance between “holding out” and “settling” is an ongoing debate. Looking back now with the benefit of experience, of the women I dated (and there weren’t that many, in case you were wondering), some would have made good spouses and some may not have (at least for me, anyway). Partly this was timing; partly it was personality; and partly preferences.

Of course the one perfectly good reason for “holding out” is if the potential interest is not Christian, and has no intention of moving in that direction. Seen it happen to others and been tempted by it too. Very difficult to resist when some Christians actually encourage you to move in that direction.

[33. Kelly said the following at 6:41 PM on Mar 12:]

33

BDB said: "Many Christian women seem to refuse lunch with any man they're not ready to marry. "

That's a sad consequence of our society. Too many times I've accepted a date and had it turn into an expectation of sex.

The problem is, you can never tell before the date if the guy is going to be one of those or not (unless you know him really well). Even if he says he's a Christian it still doesn't guarantee if he follows God's instructions on purity.

So yeah, to avoid ugliness, I have been known to turn down dates. Sorry guys. "Once bitten, twice shy" springs to mind.

[34. Kelly said the following at 7:14 PM on Mar 12:]

34

"It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I also DISAGREE with this. If you are alone and single, you still have hope. If you're alone in marriage, where can you turn? You're trapped.

--

Also, re: settling. I was once dating a man who had the qualities mentioned. There was just one major problem for me. His marital expecations included intimate relations EVERY NIGHT (and given how much pressure I was put under for that, pre-marriage, I have no doubt it would have happened post-marriage). To add to this, he was a divorcee (I was trying not to judge!) and apparently that was the way things were in his first marriage.

Is that really a better life than singleness? Sacficing yourself to your spouse every night because he meets the Biblical definition of what a husband should be?

I think not.

[35. Jenna said the following at 7:32 PM on Mar 12:]

35

I totally relate to these articles. I am almost 29 years old and have been fortunate to have dated a lot of men in my twenties, yet here I am, still single. I don't feel like I have had an unrealistic list of what i want in a man. I have been careful to only date Christians but I have not found any man that had all of the "non-negitiables" she lists. If I had, I would have married him in a heartbeat. I do think that settling is the way to go and that it is better to just "move on with your life" and purpose in your mind to love another imperfect human being whom GOd created rather than continue on in singleness. I think tons more people settle than they are willing to admit and are happier because of it in the long run.

[36. Kellie said the following at 7:52 PM on Mar 12:]

36

I have reason to be glad for some Christian girls not settling. My husband was part of a good size young adult group before we met, several single guys and even more single girls. I suspect they couldn't see past outward appearance to get to know a wonderful Christian man. And what was better for him: Being with a girl who settled or one who adores him?

[37. Dan (real name) said the following at 7:52 PM on Mar 12:]

37

Kay (#18):

You ask a good question. Here is my take from a past experience of mine: If there are things about him that annoy you, do you think that dating longer and/or getting married is going to make those annoying things disappear? That is something that I realized in a relationship. About the other person in my life, it wasn't immoral things, just things I didn't want to be around (and it wasn't trivial stuff).

That might not help, but it is something that happened to me, and realizing that there are things about another person that may NEVER change, you (and I) have to look at it from a viewpoint of "is this something I can tolerate?"

[38. Laura said the following at 8:38 PM on Mar 12:]

38

Esther416 (24) -- I think that, with regard to similar calling, those things can change.

I had a friend who was determined to do missions in China. Then a young pastor several states away saw on her blog a rant about men who never ask women out, and he picked up the gauntlet and asked her out. They've been married for over two years now. I had another friend who decided to go ahead with her plans to do missions in Spain, where she met her now-husband, a native of Spain, who had a completely different career path.

In other words, I think there are times when the Lord puts a passion in our hearts for a particular place or people group, even if he doesn't ultimately that place in our future. He uses our prayers and our passions for his will too!

Regarding the phrase "God's best" -- what does that mean? I hear it a lot but don't really get it. It sounds like God has a "plan A," which is his best plan, but if we screw it up, we get "plan B." From my reading of Scripture, God doesn't have a "plan B."

[39. BDB said the following at 9:08 PM on Mar 12:]

39

Responding to Esther416 (#24):

My thoughts:

#1 is "holding out," because one of the best ways to get to know an acquaintance is over lunch. If you only see someone in a group, he may never, ever, have a chance to even hold a real conversation with you. Most women I see at church are interrupted every 2 minutes or so by someone wanting to say "hi." - makes it quite hard to have much of a conversation at church. Much better to take an hour over lunch and then it's possible to really have some back-and-forth.

#2 is "holding out" because feelings is a bad way to make decisions, and they don't develop until AFTER you know someone. If a person has "feelings" about someone they don't know, it's "infatuation." I'm not sure if curiousity is a feeling, but that's enough of a reason to invite someone to lunch.

#3 IS a legitmate reason to turn someone down. Warnings by both parents and friends especially. If it's just a friend saying, "he's not cool enough," that's not a legitimate reason.

[40. Kenya said the following at 9:40 PM on Mar 12:]

40

Esther416 -

I think you hit on a great point that, in my reading and exploring, occasionally gets left out of mainstream Christian guides for single people. God is the one who directs our path. We should look to God's wisdom and guidance when it comes to dating/courting and marriage.

However, I think the point Suzanne was making is that many of us have been brainwashed by romance novels, Disney movies, and the rest of popular culture into thinking there's a perfect, gorgeous hunk of a Prince Charming out there who will read our minds, wait on us hand and foot, and make us ethereally happy for the rest of our lives. For better or worse, that's nothing more than a fairy tale!

It's time for both genders to dial back their fairy tale expectations. I'm not married - I can't claim to know the joys and hardships that go along with it. But I'm now looking for godly man. If he happens to be short and balding instead of resembling Hollywood's latest leading man, I'll love him for it.

[41. Gary said the following at 7:40 AM on Mar 13:]

41

Esther416(#24): I think the first two reasons are not necessarily a reason to not date a guy, however, listening to the counsel of your friends and your dad does seem like a wiser reason to not date him. I would inquire though their reasons for their opinion, and make sure they are grounded in scripture.

Also, regarding waiting for God's best, how is that defined exactly? You speak of your friend who is *almost* certain she is being called to missions. I think it's shortsighted for her (or anyone) to not date a guy who meets all of the basic requirements laid out in the post, because she has an inkling that God *might* call her to missions. I say she should give him a chance. Who knows, God's best may have nothing to do with missions, or if it does, who says that a guy who has shown no interest in missions up to that point does not receive a call to missions thereafter.

My basic point is that people should be open minded about dating, and not rule someone out automatically unless they do not meet basic Christian dating requirements.

[42. Kay said the following at 7:46 AM on Mar 13:]

42

Patrick
Thanks for the response and thoughts esp since this is something that has affected you recently! You make a good point about the personality annoyances and I have thought about that in the past. The problem is I have been trying really hard to make it work with this guy. We are very different in our spiritual backgrounds and how we were raised and he is completely different from guys I've dated in the past. Which is a good thing for the most part. And I really wanted him to be the one. I'm READY to meet someone I can marry! But I have prayed from the beginning that God would make it very clear to me if this guy is what is best so I have to believe that God would not want me to try and force something to be there that's not. I am wondering how much longer I should give the relationship. I want to give it a chance but the longer I wait the more chance there is that this guy will be hurt even more.

[43. annie said the following at 8:51 AM on Mar 13:]

43

hi Kay,

I can totally identify with you!

I'm in the same situation and one of the things i worry about is that my boyfirend is not very intellectual. not a big deal i guess- but i thrive on debate and trivia and information- which means that there's some conversations we just dont share, there are some jokes that he just wouldnt get (please understand i'm not looking down on him AT ALL) he's just not that way.

But he fits the 'Candice List' -perfectly in every other way. And he's a great guy, with a warm heart, who loves me (and i can be so unloveable sometimes!)
He prays with and for me- and he's trying to live life right.

I know that it probably sounds like a no- brainer to most, but i'm not so convinced.
Should i call it off? Are we better off remaining friends? Am i robbing him the love of a woman who really does love him just the way he is?

Is it unfair to 'settle' for him when i know that the depth of my feeling is nowhere near his?

Would that open a door for temptation later on if i meet someone who 'meets' me on the level(s) that he doesnt?

what if?what if? what if??

Analysis of paralysis...that's us!

But if someone (God preferably) could say "Sweets, this is The Man for you" i'd marry him without a second thought.

But i guess no-one does the hard yards for you.

Hey,on another note: WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GUY ON THE PLANE?? :)

[44. obewan said the following at 9:15 AM on Mar 13:]

44

Kay:

"...Regarding what you said about your boyfriend's personality annoying you."

I had the same problem with my last serious girlfriend. From the get go she insisted that she was not interested in dating me unless the relationship would lead to a marriage. That put an insane amount of undue pressure on me. I told her that I did not want biological children (due to a bad gene). She refused to listen and said that if she fell in love it would not matter, but at the same time insisted that she wanted children of her own. We would get in fights about not getting in a fight if you know what I mean. I had a real hard time getting to know her beyond a superficial level because she would not let me get close, but she was very interested in passionate kissing - which I put a stop to. She would start fights over nothing by asking: "Why won't you tell me what's wrong?" I would answer: "Nothing is wrong." She would answer, "You just won't tell me." At that point, something WAS wrong. Ultimately, I was put out of my misery and we broke up. I guess that fact that I was not hurt means I never could have fallen in love with her.

[45. Stefanie said the following at 9:16 AM on Mar 13:]

45

Regarding Kay's situation and Patrick's responses:
I appreciate that the type of situation Kay describes illustrates an important issue at hand in this discussion. She has clearly given the relationship a chance, but there comes a point, I believe, when continuing in a relationship you know not to be completely mutual becomes a bit unfair. To both involved. I speak from an experience that was similar. Based solely on the list of non-negotiables, I knew one of the best husband candidates out there. And he was interested in me! And it was thrilling and scary at the same time. I cared for him, found him physically attractive, and we had a strong friendship. But I felt almost exactly how Kay describes her feelings. I spent a long time battling with myself over whether I was settling or being too picky or not open-minded enough to what God was presenting to me. But at the risk of sounding idealistic, I believe there are certain feelings that you cannot (and should not) invent for another person. And while I don't expect that relationships be as perfect and sweep-you-off-your-feet dramatic as movies would have us believe, I do still hold out hope that the elusive "chemistry" can exist. Or if that word is too cliche for your taste, then replace it with what you will. The bottom line was, I knew I did not feel much for him beyond a (perhaps too-close) friendship. There was a fuller attraction, beyond a physical level, that was just not present.
The unfortunate part of my experience is that my battle over whether or not I was giving it a chance translated into a lot of hurt for us both, and a strange sense of limbo that went on for far too long for both of us. I realized in the end that my unwillingness to make a decision was costly and hurtful to him and to me. And it was definitely not respectful.

I do agree with Patrick that the annoyance might be a reflection of your own frustration (I was never more annoyed with my friend than when I was wrestling with indecision about our relationship).
And I do believe love can grow over time, and sometimes wonderful things aren't gift-wrapped by God in the shiny ribbon we want. But my experience has taught me that there is a balance to be struck between giving everything a chance and being willing to be honest and fair when you know you don't feel for someone what they feel for you.

[46. Stefanie said the following at 9:33 AM on Mar 13:]

46

Also, as a separate comment, Brooke, in comment #6, said,
"I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones."

I just wanted to caution against this line of distinction between 'godly' and 'damaged' girls. I have the impression that the 'damaged' girls referred to are ones that are Christians who have a few more wounds than others (or perhaps more unsavory wounds than others?). If this is the case, I would like to stand in defense of us. There is already a hard struggle against the enemy for wounded women to believe God when He says we are clean, we are holy, and we are His.
And if my assumption was wrong, and the word was meant to describe non-Christian women, I think it could have been said in the simple terms of believing or non-believing.

I know this comment diverges from the line of the intended discussion, and I apologize for the distraction, and I also don't want to be combative toward Brooke. I agreed with her observation of the fact that non-christian men seem to be more open to pursuit than Christians.
I just felt the need to express concern over wording that can be a barb to some hearts, without the author intending it.

[47. Suzanne said the following at 10:16 AM on Mar 13:]

47

You guys are all so sweet wanting to know the "rest of the story." :) Rest assured that Plane Guy knows how to reach me. And I'm thrilled to have made a new friend.

[48. a sassy sister said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 13:]

48

I agree with Kenya. However, I am fully aware of the fact that I do need to have SOME level of physical attraction to them (this cuts both ways). I am not waiting for a perfect man, because I am reminded daily of how we are ALL IMPERFECT.

But I also think that this goes deeper than fairy tale expectations of marrying someone---I think it speaks to our understanding and our ideas about what a successful, fulfilled life really is.

[49. Lynne said the following at 12:58 PM on Mar 13:]

49

Wow, what interesting reading. It's been a long (long) time since I've dated, because I'm married. However, as I read this, one thing jumps out at me...
Your spouse is not there to meet all your needs...yes, I know the frequent response is that only God can do that. This is true, but your spouse doesn't have to meet all your friendship needs either. As my husband of 18 years and I like to say "I will never be philosophical enough for him (despite my multiple graduate degrees : ) and he will never be silly enough for me" That's why we have friends, not just couple friends, individual friends that meet my need to shop for multiple pairs of black mary jane shoes, and his to talk deeply about all kinds of things...and watch the Braves : )

[50. Kristie said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 13:]

50

Candice's blog post refers to the article titled "Marry Him!" by Lori Gottlieb found here http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry
You will note that there are MANY disturbing thoughts coming from this blog. Yes, there is choosing to "settle" for a man who can love you and care for you and lead you and in return you can love and respect him, but it is a TOTALLY different thing to just settle for any guy who comes along claiming to be a Christian. Look at these instances she uses and says are OK! These quotes form the article that is being referred to are SO completely illogical.

"Based on my observations, in fact, settling will probably make you happier in the long run, since many of those who marry with great expectations become more disillusioned with each passing year."

"Once you’re married, it’s not about whom you want to go on vacation with; it’s about whom you want to run a household with. Marriage isn’t a passion-fest; it’s more like a partnership formed to run a very small, mundane, and often boring nonprofit business."

"They, like me, would rather feel alone in a marriage than actually be alone, because they, like me, realize that marriage ultimately isn’t about cosmic connection—it’s about how having a teammate, even if he’s not the love of your life, is better than not having one at all." --- not the love of your life?!?!

"So if you rarely see your husband—but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own—how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?" - not marrying the one God has for you but hey, he takes out the trash and brings home the money!

"That’s why mothers tell their daughters to “keep an open mind” about the guy who spends his weekends playing Internet poker or touches your back for two minutes while watching ESPN and calls that “a massage.”"

[51. Anna said the following at 1:17 PM on Mar 13:]

51

Brooke (#6): "I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones. I don't know if it's the challenge or the ego boost, but the godly women aren't getting the dates from the christian guys for whatever reason."

I, too, am bothered by the implication that "damaged" = ungodly. I am a devout Christ-follower who also happens to have two chronic mental illnesses (one serious and one relatively minor) along with emotional "baggage" from a failed past relationship. That combination makes it exceedingly difficult to believe that I'm "worthy" of a Godly man, and while God is slowly teaching me to find my worth in Him, comments like this one only widen the gap I feel between myself and the "good Christian girls" with perma-smiles and no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness.

I've also observed that woundedness or "damage" in a Christian is often accompanied by a depth of true humility that "healthy" people have never had to cultivate. Could that be what draws the men you've encountered toward the women they pursue?

[52. Holly said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 13:]

52

I'm not sure if this is appropriate for this particular post or not, but here goes. I was talking to a married friend last night. She's been married for 3 years, and she told me that her husband used to write her little notes when they were dating/first married. He no longer does this, and when she brought it up to him, he stated, "That was a different phase of our relationship." It made me view marriage quite a bit differently. His response seemed pretty cold, to me. So, does this mean when you are no longer in the "pursual" stage, it's okay to ignore a wife's desires for something as small as a little note?

The reason I'm writing this here, is because I want to hold out for someone who will not just coldly brush aside something so small, that would make me still feel desired and loved. How do you sense this when you're in the dating stage of your relationship? How do you know when someone is merely writing you notes so that he'll "catch you," not because he cares about you, because he knows that's something that will keep the relationship and romance alive? It's all very disillusioning.

[53. Geoff Youngs said the following at 2:42 PM on Mar 13:]

53

Who came up with the term "settling"? It has a fatalism that comes from the "there is only one person on God's green earth who could ever make me happy" myth.

We are not the helpless victims of circumstance - nor should be slaves to our feelings. Surely when I marry it shouldn't be because I found the [hottest/holiest/most pastor's daughter-ish] girl within reach. Nor because I "settled" for the someone I didn't care for, but who was available. It should be because I chose a girl and I promised to love and cherish her until death us do part. That's not settling - that's a practical understanding of the beauty of the doctrine of election! Any other basis for commitment has the potential to become grounds for a divorce.

The idea that this is "settling" seems to come from a glut of rom-coms which lead our secular contemporaries to live emotionally distant and disconnected lives, never enjoying the security and affirmation of total commitment because they can't stop looking around the corner. A perverse notion from a culture that defines "commitment" as sexual activity rather than the life-long forsaking of all others.

[54. Paul H said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 13:]

54

I haven't read any of the comments, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone else's points...

Suzanne's post points out another lethal consequence of the idea that God "writes your love story" or that He is the ultimate matchmaker. Besides producing passivity in singles - men in particular - as they endlessly "wait on the Lord" for a spouse, it also creates unreasonable expectations as they hold out for "God's best." After all, if God has just one woman or man picked out for each of us, that person is surely at least as fabulous as they are in my fantasies (*cough*).

This quote is from an article called, "Is God a Matchmaker" by Blaine Smith and it sums up this phenomenon nicely:

"The belief that God has one ideal choice also leads some to be too idealistic about whom they would consider marrying. Since God is perfect, it is felt that you must not settle for anyone who less than fully measures up to your image of the ideal mate. Such persons are quick to bail out of a relationship at the first sign of another's imperfections, while others wait endlessly for that perfect relationship that never comes along."

Unlike me, the author of that article does still believe that God orchestrates a person's marital situation (he's a Presbyterian, if I recall), but he adds that it's "not helpful" to think about it too much when a single person is trying to get married. He's got that much right....

Once again it shows how "theology matters" to everyday practical concerns like getting married -- a pretty big deal in most people's lives, I would say.

[55. Paulina said the following at 3:21 PM on Mar 13:]

55

WHEN I READ THE COMMENT by Suzzanne:

"It seems like the majority of Christian singles are holding out for something," my new friend said. "Like the guys are waiting for a pastor's daughter/cheerleader that just popped out of Bible college, and girls are looking for...I don't know, a guy who just returned from a four-year missions trip to Peru."

I laugh out loud and then cried and then laughed some more because this analysis represented every belief i've had about christian relationships. I have been convinced (probably still is) that (hopefully soon) I would meet some missionary who loves God and a ready to commit to me. We would eventually marry, have beautiful children and travel together...the end. I don't know how those beliefs become a part of me but i guess it was a mix of hollywood romance movies and the christian dating teachings I go from my youth group. But i have to say i'm a bit more in tune with reality now. When i fully commited my life to God, my view on life and relationships changed. suddenly non-christian guys were off the list and christian guys gained a spot. But as i erased a spot for non-christian guys i also kept the other characteristics on the list. Those included charming, handsome, a bit on the bad side, caring, romantic etc. So in my mind, i wanted to find a christian guy, who loved God, was a missionary or somewhere along those lines and had all other characteristics like romantic, loving, a bit on the bad side, handsone etc. So that was my prayer for the past 2 year. SADLY i've been absolutely wrong. I was speaking to my youth pastor the other day and he made an interesting point. He said and i quote "you need to stop giving a list of charateristics that you want in a guy and pray that God will send you the right guy. The one that he thinks is best for you". Hmmm...that actually makes a lot more sense and definately makes my prayer quite short.
Sorry for rambling on but when you've seen things wrong your whole life and you finally see it how you should see it, you don't want to stop talking about it. So i think it's important that we as christians think of relationships as a way of pleasing God. Its not about what you really want, it's about whether your desires please God. And if it doesn't, you might be on the road for disater.

One more point i want to make or more like a revelation: My friend and i were talking the other day and she was saying how she turns guys away just by the way they approach her. I'll admit i've done this too. I believed at the time that christian guys were suppose to approach me in this holy/Godly way (ask me what that is: i dont even know?). But my point here it that guys are guys. christian or non-christian. There no holy way a christian guy can approach you. The only must in this case is approach with respect.

Anyways i've said enough...let me know what you think?

[56. a sassy sister said the following at 4:54 PM on Mar 13:]

56

OK, Paulina (comment #55)

there is a "holy" way to do it...it's just not so specific and minutely detailed that it has be done EXACTLY the same way by EVERYONE. Please do not use "boys will be boys" logic. While I understand you are trying to say that men and women are wired differently, as Christians, I believe that we cannot use that"well, they're men excuse." All of us must be held accountable for our actions, and saying things like that only encourages disrespect and manipulation between the sexes. You are right to expect a man to approach you with respect, however, I think it is equally important to understand that the respect that a man has for you should flow out of the love, obedience and reverence that he has for God and his creations(people included here).

Also, I believe the best thing you can do is take a look at that list again and check it against God's Word. When you look at this list that you have, you can see if your desires and priorities are based on satisfying your idea of true love and happiness, or based on standards of Biblical manhood. Lists aren't always bad if we know their true purposes for them. Did you create a list because that's what you believed you were supposed to do in waiting for the right guy?

[57. Marie said the following at 5:15 PM on Mar 13:]

57

This comment applies to Stefanie (46) and Anna (51).

I was also troubled by comment that alluded damaged and godly people cannot be in the same category. We're ALL damaged. Maybe some of us just aren't aware because it hasn't happed to us in a very outwardly noticable way... i.e. someone may not realize they've been "damaged" (read sinful) by being quick to judge others their whole lives vs. "damaged" by a rough family life growing up, mental illness, past sexual sin, etc.

I probably just feel strongly about this because I know it applies to me :) I've done a lot of changing (praise God, of course!) that has helped me to heal from my "damaged" past.

I'm in a serious relationship now with a great Christan guy who I suppose most would say has been much more godly than me his entire life. He has dated a couple other gals with cleaner pasts than mine. He would have been absolutely open to marrying them, but their personalities clashed or there where other reasons that made serious courtship a deal-breaker once he got to know them better. I am in NO WAY saying that I'm any better than any of my boyfriend's previous prospects. Our strenghts/weaknesses and personalities just happen to complement one another and he encourages me grow in my faith (as I do for him). I thank God constantly for sending this awsome guy into my life who forgives me just like Jesus did :)

In my opinion, I think if we work on the part of us that's "damaged" (we're all big 'ol sinners), with God's help we can heal. Maybe then will He send us just the person we've been looking for to complete us here on earth because we are finally ready for that serious relationship. And no... I am not engaged or married yet so I do not know if my bf is the one God has in mind for me. For now I can only have patience (man, that's a hard one!!), pray, and continue to grow in the Christian faith.

Hopefully I managed not to sterotype too much in this post! It would be great to hear any comments... whether you agree or disagree. Either we're holding out for the wrong reasons or possibly God is the one holding out on us and waiting for us damaged sinners to get our acts together!! ;)

Thanks for reading.....

[58. BDB said the following at 5:16 PM on Mar 13:]

58

Katie B (#29) wrote:

>>Its not because I set my sights to high, its because I have that non negotiable list,<<

Then bring that up at lunch. You may be surprised that someone will someday say, "leadership?!?" and go ask an older man how to do that.

If someone invites me to lunch, and I'm not sure about her spiritual status, I ALWAYS start talking about all the things I do at church. Sometimes, this makes women uncomfortable, because they don't have an active faith. They stop being interested at that point. But I've also discovered that some women ARE Christians, I just didn't know. (And I found one woman who was really into ancient Egyptian gods. That was an interesting lunch. Wasn't quite sure what to say. I think I tried to relate it to Stargate SG-1.)

Lunch is a great time to discuss these non-negotiable things in a relatively low-pressure environment, and one that usually doesn't involve alcohol clouding people's perceptions.

Andrew (tlw) (#32) wrote:

>>Loved the one about the flaming Mazda in the car park.<<

Yeah, well, it DID teach me that God can take something away and replace it with something better. I'm a lot less emotionally attached to cars now. I still name them. (Which was a little awkward when three years after I named my car "Jessica" one of my close friends named her daughter that. I figured I better not ask if she name her daughter after my car.)

Kelly (#33) wrote:

>>That's a sad consequence of our society. Too many times I've accepted a date and had it turn into an expectation of sex.<<

You mean the women who accepted had already decided to...no, no, no, that's just going to mess with my head...

For those worried about this, drive to lunch separately...

Suzanne (#47) wrote:

>>You guys are all so sweet wanting to know the "rest of the story." :) <<

Well, you know, we all go to church, and if we see a man and woman talking, we hound them relentlessly about the status of their "relationship" until they are intimidated into breaking up...

Holly (#52) wrote:

>>So, does this mean when you are no longer in the "pursual" stage, it's okay to ignore a wife's desires for something as small as a little note? <<

Well, if it's any consolation to you, a men's retreats men are constantly hammered to care for their wives by "Do what you did when you were dating!"

Unfortunately, when a single person hears that instruction for marriage, they might conclude, "Um, break up with her because she doesn't meet everything on my list? Well, if you really think that's best..."

If I were to combine every sermon I've heard on marriage, I could build quite a PowerPoint presentation on how, for men, marriage is nothing but work, work, work...

[59. Paulina said the following at 5:36 PM on Mar 13:]

59

to comment #56

To answer your question-"the list" I made was created year and years ago when i was not a christian and basically was deeply influence by the media and some poeple around me. I created it because i was convinced that i would meet a guy with all those characteristics and it was only a matter of time. You may have read me wrong: i was trying to say that when i was not a christian i had this hollywood type "list" of thigs i wanted in a guy and from the relationship. However, when i became a christian and fully commited my life to christ, my view of relationsips changed a bit...but yet i still carried that list with me except i wanted "this guy" to be a christian foremost but also meet the criteria on "the list"---so you see that kind of thinking is wrong i think. Mostly because "the list" consisted of superficial things like physical attractiveness and such. So now i think i should just ask God for the one who he believes is right for me...who ever he is..how ever he looks etc..but he most met only one criteria...which is love God.

Also, i agree with you on the issue that men should not be excuse and are accountable for their actions.

[60. BDB said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 13:]

60

For the women who've commented that they're already dating guys with all four characteristcs and it's not enough, I have a two-part question:

1) How has he demonstrated sacrificial love?

2) Given how rare that is, did it not move you at all?

It seems like it would be difficult to observe this behavior in a "dating" relationship that's based on entertainment. For example, I know lots of people who like to go to Mexico on a cruise, or vacation, or just to get drunk. But on Sunday, I was talking with a woman who really wants to go to Mexico to visit an orphanage. She went on a missions trip to Cambodia last year and didn't get to go to the orphanage, and really wants to go. So I think she might actually be serious...

(And if you're wondering what I'm going to do about it...I have some missionaries I support in Mexico; at least one of them must know of an orphanage...I'm e-mailing them...)

[61. Adam T. said the following at 6:55 PM on Mar 13:]

61

Kristie (#50), you posted several quotes that you say are 'illogical', and then you don't explain why you think they're illogical; if you did, I think it would help stimulate the discussion a lot better. In particular, one of the quotes you gave was, in my mind, the single best paragraph in the whole article:

Once you’re married, it’s not about whom you want to go on vacation with; it’s about whom you want to run a household with. Marriage isn’t a passion-fest; it’s more like a partnership formed to run a very small, mundane, and often boring nonprofit business.

This is absolutely a lesson I've learned over the past year or so, and based on what I consistently read from young single people, I think it's a lesson a lot of us in our generation sorely need to learn. I had come over to this way of thinking even before I read the article in question, and I've drastically changed what I consider important in a potential wife.

As I've contemplated marriage over the past while, I've realized precisely what the paragraph says: that though when I was younger I may have dreamed of marrying the sexiest/hottest girl in town, in reality, that's not necessarily what's going to make me happy day in and day out for the rest of my life. What is going to make me content for the rest of my life is someone I can generally get along with; who is enjoyable to be with; who loves me for who I am; who complements me; who likes (or at is willing to do) things like cooking and childcare that are traditionally 'feminine' domains... in sum, someone who wants to be a partner with me in running a home and family.

(We've all got those 'must-have' lists, right? Well, not only has mine gotten a lot smaller, but the general theme of mine has shifted from 'must be attractive' to 'must be someone I can actually live with every day for the rest of my life'. That might sound cynical, but I don't mean it that way - I just mean it to be realistic.)

I've come to consider these things much more important than 'passion', and I truly think that as I grow older I'll become more content as a result. I bet the married people among us generally agree with the excerpt above.

[62. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 8:02 PM on Mar 13:]

62

I think we are expecting a spouse to give more than is reasonable. A good spouse is a great blessing, to be sure. Some people will be a better match for us than others. But no spouse can meet all our needs. It’s not possible. That is why we have friends, family, hobbies and so on. I wonder if this comes back to the elusive “chemistry” thing, that we expect to feel more about our date than we can realistically expect to. This too, can grow with time, provided the respect is there.

Annie, trying to be sensitive here, but your situation is one that probably shouldn’t be permitted to drag on indefinitely. If the situation was reversed and your b/f felt less emotional commitment for you then you did for him (as is commonly alleged by many women in their relationships), how would you feel?

If you do marry, you will be tempted by another. But that’s probably true of all of us at some point. Many singles talk about guarding their hearts but marrieds do this too, to avoid inappropriate emotional intimacy.

Holly, your friend is suffering from feeling unloved. Men are great at pursuing goals. Keeping the love fresh in our marriages is a challenge. It is a common issue that women speak of, but that doesn’t mean men can let their wives wither away. You also need to repent of your disillusionment before it hardens into an emotional shield you neither need nor benefit from.

I see this whole checklist thing as out of control, hindering and not helping our search for a spouse. I threw out my checklist at some point (I don’t remember when) and eventually abandoned hopes of getting married at all. It just seemed all too hard. But my spouse and I were introduced by a mutual friend who thought both of us were “unique” (damaged in similar ways, perhaps?) and might get along well. She was right. We did. It hasn’t been all wine and roses, but it’s been wonderful just the same.

And by the way: my spouse wouldn’t have passed my checklist either. But she knows she’s loved and is special, because I keep telling her so.

And BdB, I think you’re onto something with the work comment. Perhaps we overemphasise the work component of marriage? I don’t know. Sometimes I think I spend more time fixing the house than maintaining our relationship. If it gets too much, I guess we can always sell the house.

[63. Becky said the following at 8:24 PM on Mar 13:]

63

I *could* have been married almost a year ago, if I had "settled".

While working a summer job after my sophomore year of college, I met an enthusiastic Christian young man. He had all the right answers, met my family, had weekly lunches with my father, asked how he could pray for me, took me to his Bible study to meet his mentors and friends.
My parents are big fans of the "courtship" behavior model, so they pushed me to make a fast decision on whether I wanted to spend the rest of my life with this young man. Because I cared deeply for him, and I earnestly desired marriage, I decided that it was time.
Meanwhile,he was working to isolate me from my friends and family (at one point he told me that because I was spending the rest of my life with him, he was entitled to *all* my free time), pushed the boundaries of our physical relationship as far as I would let him,and discouraged me from pursuing my passions and interests (specifically a medical missions trip to Asia).
Six or seven months into the relationship I hated answering his calls and spending one on one time with him, but I felt that I had no other option but to pray and trust God to change him, since he was a "good Christian guy" who I had intended to marry.
Thankfully, the mother of a dear friend intervened, seeing that the relationship was harmful to me and told me that there were times promises needed to be reconsidered, even if they hurt one's parents.
I have had limited communication with him since the breakup- mainly consisting of me trying to retrieve items on loan and him responding with personal attacks.
For six months he looked like a great Christian guy.
I'm so glad I didn't settle.

[64. Ted Slater said the following at 11:01 PM on Mar 13:]

64

Becky -- I'm glad you didn't "settle" in this instance as well.

FWIW, "courtship" is *absolutely NOT* pre-engagement. It is not. There is no "commitment." No "promise."

It is a time to formally and intentionally consider the Lord's will regarding your relationship with a guy. That's all.

There should be no sexual impurity. There should be no expectation that you're destined to be married. No obligation to marry. None of that stuff.

Sounds like your "courtship" was merely dating with a "pre-engagement" kind of feel, and a smattering of sexual impurity muddying up the mix.

That's not "courtship," Becky.

I'm not condemning you. Please understand that. I'm showing you that true courtship is a freeing time, an opportunity to explore a relationship that results in no regret, whether you marry or not. I "courted" the woman I married, and have not a single regret. I think you'd be blessed by going the same route....

But back to your comment. I'm happy to see that you didn't "settle" with this guy. God's got better in store for you, Becky.

[65. BDB said the following at 11:21 PM on Mar 13:]

65

Becky (#63) wrote:

>>(at one point he told me that because I was spending the rest of my life with him, he was entitled to *all* my free time),<<

Red Flag! Red Flag! Waving Vigorously!

That's one of the signs of an abuser. No human being is "entitled" to all the free time of another human being. Marriage - after the vows - entitles someone to priority over parents, siblings, etc. But definitely not all their time.

And to consider the 4 points in the article, what you are describing is the opposite of sacrifical love.

[66. Leah said the following at 8:25 AM on Mar 14:]

66

Re: "It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I can't believe anyone would say that. In Bill and Lynn Hybel's marriage book "Fit to be tied", Bill reiterates over and over- it is far better to be lonely and single than lonely and married. Because a single can change their situation by getting married. A married person cannot change their situation.

Ted- I hardly think Becky is labelling her courtship experience as a standard courtship. Her parents and the guy obviously messed it up big time for her, so I don't think she deserves any criticism at all.

Adam T- Amen, brother. Preach it! My fiance and I both have our "Wants" lists, but our most important wants/needs are those that make the other person a suitable person to live with for the rest of our lives. Things which will encourage and build each other up in the Lord; things which will help us run a household and family effectively; things which will help us get along the best we can.

BDB- I love your questions. I don't see how a woman could observe a guy showing sacrificial love and NOT be moved by it. It's the most melt-worthy thing ever. (Ok, I'm being all mushy and romantic here... of course there are other important things out there, but we're talking about courtship!! Haha).

You also said If I were to combine every sermon I've heard on marriage, I could build quite a PowerPoint presentation on how, for men, marriage is nothing but work, work, work...

Now, if I were to combine everyting I've ever heard on marriage, I'd say that for women, marriage is nothing but work, work, work... That's what marriage is, for everyone! Work! But a work which is SO worthwhile.

Anna- if you felt judged by Brook's comment, you shoudl hardly be making comments like "good Christian girls" with perma-smiles (have) no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness.

Ok, so I suppose it's wrong for "good Christian girls" to make judgments about you and other "damaged" girls, but it's ok for you to judge and say that obviously all "good Christian girls" have no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness? Get a grip. Seriously. You said it yourself, the distinction between "godly" and "damaged" is dangerous. I can almost guarantee the "good Christian girls" you picture in your mind are damaged and feel unwhole. So if you want people to stop judging "damaged" women as "ungodly", you can stop judging "good Christian girls" as perfect, unhurt, and without understanding of what it's like to be hurt and unwhole.

Esther416- If you feel nothing for him AND your father and friends are advising against it, that is TOTALLY fine to reject him. That's not "holding out" for some super-spiritual reason. It's common sense to listen to your father and friends when it comes to such things! :)

Kristie- while, for the most part, I agree with your issues with Gottlieb's article, I think you're wrong to criticise her for not holding out for "the one God has for you". God does not have ONE for you. There are many you can choose from. God gave 3 guidelines when it comes to choosing a spouse-
1. member of the opposite sex
2. a christian
3. a human
And really, Gottlieb isn't too wrong when she says we don't HAVE to marry for love. Isaac and Rebekah didn't. Marriages of convenience and arranged marriages are rife all over the world and throughout history. Now, don't get me wrong- I'm not diminishing the role of love. Isaac and Rebekah clearly grew to love each other very much. I'm simply saying that while it may seem counter-cultural to slightly lower the importance of love in the beginning of a marriage, it's not biblically wrong. I still wouldn't do it, but it's not WRONG.

[67. Katie B said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 14:]

67

BDB, thanks for your response, I apprieciate a males perspective on that situation. I admit I am a little cynical, I have several times been out to lunch or coffee with a guy once, after which he presumes to tell me that God told him that I am supposed to marry him (or he more offensive version, I was created to be his wife) and if I should refuse, or even ask for time to reconcider, prayer groups form about how I am walking away from Gods call on my life. once this happened with no date at all. If a man tries to coerce me, rather than lead me, in the relationship, that is a quick ticket out, no matter what else he has got going for him.
Does this happen to anyone else?

[68. Alex B. said the following at 1:44 PM on Mar 14:]

68

I'm really disturbed by the number of times that I've read in this and other comment threads that women are being pushed by supposedly Christian men to go past their own sexual boundaries. This is not only a huge red flag as to their real intentions and character, but also to the seriousness of their faith.

Is anything done to censure or hold these men accountable within churches when it's discovered they are acting this way? If not, something should be... if nothing else, I'd think women should be spreading the word amongst themselves and simply refusing to date such men until they have shaped up.

[69. Becky said the following at 2:22 PM on Mar 14:]

69

Ted (#64)- no offense taken. It was less an issue of labels than of expectations. My parents and the fellow involved *expected* the relationship to become very serious very quickly, and this was the heart of the problems.

my *real* point was that even though this guy was actively involved in church, in a mentoring relationship with an older married couple, had gone on missions trips, made an effort to get to know my family, he *still* would have made a horrible husband. It's important to enter relationships with wisdom and discernment, and I think sometimes (like in my case) when someone deeply desires to be married soon, some of that discernment evaporates.

Not every "Christian guy who takes initiative" is worth getting involved with. While "giving people a chance" is an important part of life, I would recommend keeping the guards up high and eyes *wide* open with people you don't know well.

As to the future....I don't know that I'll ever be married. Right now, I'm choosing to focus on my relationship with my Heavenly Father and the dreams He's placed within my grasp at the moment, and to trust that in time, He'll make my next steps clear.

[70. sc said the following at 2:59 PM on Mar 14:]

70

in response to the one person/many choices debate... back when i was in therapy, my therapist asked me if believed there's more than one 'husband option out there for me. i thought for a second, and then replied, well, i might, if i'd ever met anyone i could see myself married to. but honestly, i never have, so i'm hoping for just one.

still hoping....

[71. BDB said the following at 3:40 PM on Mar 14:]

71

Katie B (#67) wrote:

>>I have several times been out to lunch or coffee with a guy once, after which he presumes to tell me that God told him that I am supposed to marry him (or he more offensive version, I was created to be his wife)<<

SEVERAL times? That's odd. God is not the author of confusion.

Even if I believed that to be true about someone, I wouldn't say it at the first lunch. What I would do is lay out what I believed God had called me to do, and identify the various guidance steps along the way that caused me to change direction or make a decision.

In theory, if someone was on the same road, this would resonate with her. God should be telling her the same thing He is telling me.

On the other hand, if she told me I was stupid, in "guidance bondage" or something...well, that would indicate I was headed down the wrong path.

I did ask an intercessor to pray for someone once. One month later she was attending church again...because her ex-boyfriend made it a condition of them getting back together. I guess that counts as guidance...at least it was quick!

[72. Katie B said the following at 6:14 PM on Mar 14:]

72

BDB, believe me I know God is not the author of confusion, we can come up with that plenty on our own.
I like your more reasonable view, it shows patience and trust in Gods providence and the woman herself.
One of the guys who tried to pursue me for the better part of a year told me that he believed in "my calling to be his wife" in part because he believed that GOd had given him his feelings for me, and that it must be right because he had prayed that God take them away but He didnt.
I go to a small christian college, where I studypastoral ministry, I am currently the only single woman in the department surrounded by guys that are pretty trigger happy when it comes to marriage. Maybe its the demographic. I figure its the desire to marry, that any woman that they 'connect' with who meets their criteria, must be the one, but it has every time been guys who dont have the maturaty or initiative to take a real risk in the relationship. By pulling the God card, they are not being rejected, God is, it requires no wooing, no work at all on their part. I doesnt even require them to listen to me or concider my feelings.
It enough to make being a nun look like fun sometimes. ;)
But in all seriousness. This was meant to illustrate how the way a man pursues a woman speaks volumes about him and what kind of leader he would be.

[73. BDB said the following at 8:36 PM on Mar 14:]

73

Katie B (#72) wrote:

>>I am currently the only single woman in the department surrounded by guys that are pretty trigger happy when it comes to marriage.<<

Ah...so the lesson is that women who feel there are no single men in church should take some seminary classes...

I once had the bright idea to do this to meet "like-minded" people. My error was in forgetting that most people don't take classes at a graduate level in seminary - they go to Bible college...oops. My fellow students were all married guys who were already pastoring small churches. Oh well. I learned a lot from them.

But you are right about how people "react" to boundaries. In an aforementioned lunch incident I wrote about somewhere else (that was scuttled by a sister over a rather restrictive definition of boundaries), the first thing that popped into my head was actually work experience. When I set a boundary at work, some people fall into line without questioning it, others ignore it, some people try to bully me (not a good choice).

But SOME people stop, tell me I put the boundary in the wrong place, and try to persuade me to move it. They didn't cross the line until I moved it. Over time, it was this last group that by far was the best to work with. I've stopped caring whether people agree with me. Now I pay attention to how they conduct themselves when they disagree.

[74. Tiffany said the following at 8:55 PM on Mar 14:]

74

Annie (#43), I am SO glad you posted the questions you are asking yourself! I suspect you asked many of them rhetorically, but I would love feedback from others on your post, as I have been struggling through many of your same questions lately. If nothing else, I am relieved to know I am not alone in my line of questioning!

[75. Susan said the following at 10:57 PM on Mar 14:]

75

Obewan (#7)- I'm with you on how frustrating it can be when the "fantasy" person appears in reality but it still doesn't work out. I think I keep thinking that because my fantasy has appeared before it will show up again when really the right guy might be under my nose and I need to give him a chance to see if he ever would lead with me. (one of my concerns about him is leadership but either he will lead or he won't lead).
Candice I'm doing the talk about a shared book (in this case C.S. Lewis, "The Great Divorce") thing in attempt to grow our friendship so we will see if it works. Thanks for the tip.
I'm a big fan of Jane Austen stories that were recommended reading on the line but I think even in this great literature and story lines it is important for women to be careful not to overfantasize them either. In my opinion Mr. Knightly and Mr. Darcy are to good to be true.
Geoff #53-I agree marriage is a choice, but women do love the romatic story lines with the prince on a white horse and as long as they realize they do live in reality I think it's ok dream a little (as long as people remember they are stories).
Blessings!

[76. Eliza said the following at 12:06 PM on Mar 15:]

76

I read Lori Gottlieb's article a few weeks ago, and was kind of surprised at her "better to be lonely in marriage" comment, but it fit in the context of her point. I think her point was that all her married friends say their lonely, but if they really hated their marriage, they'd get divorced. (This article was written from a secular perspective, where divorce is an option.) She said that if/when she ever offered to take their husbands off their hands for them, she highly doubts they'd take her up on the offer. This leaves her only to conclude that as much as they complain about their situation, it is preferable to her own.

I don't think that is at all the case across the board, but it makes her comment more reasonable in context.

[77. Sandrine said the following at 8:25 PM on Mar 16:]

77

Katie B. and BDB: I found this discussion about the "God card" really interesting, because it happened to me as well! Some guys did try to use that to push me into something I wasn't sure I wanted to go... and it made me run away. I think that it does really happen sometimes that God gives someone immediate and clear guidance about a marriage partner, but then this person should not push this at the other to force a decision. It happened with my fiancé: the first time we met, he was sure that I was the answer to his prayers about a wife, but he did not say anything and took steps to get slowly acquainted with me (by going to same young adult groups, Bible studies, etc.). It was only about six months later that I started thinking that he may be interested in me, and still a few months afterwards that something really started between us, after much prayers on both sides. It then became rapidly clear to me that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, and when he did ask the question, my answer was ready. But it was only AFTER we were engaged that he told me how God showed him I was the one and how he did act on it... and I was really happy he did not tell me before, because it gave me the chance to get to know him, without the pressure and expectations that would have come otherwise.

[78. Leah said the following at 9:01 PM on Mar 16:]

78

Annie,

I think I sort of sympathise with you.

You ask I know that it probably sounds like a no- brainer to most, but i'm not so convinced.
Should i call it off? Are we better off remaining friends? Am i robbing him the love of a woman who really does love him just the way he is?

Is it unfair to 'settle' for him when i know that the depth of my feeling is nowhere near his?

Now if i had to hazard a guess, I'd say things between you and your bf sound much rockier than things between my fiance and I. Because I honestly do love him to bits and don't think I could love anyone more than I love him. But I understand your feelings that he does not 'meet' your intellectual level. While my fiance more than meets me on an intellectual level, it's the theological level which is my issue. Dont get me wrong; we agree on all the important theological ones, and 95% of peripheral ones. But I also love being able to hear more than what I already know from a guy, and I can't hear that from him. Many of the peripheral things we agree on, he only learnt in the last few years (especially since we've been going out). So while it's not like I know more than him, it's like we're totally even- and I enjoy hearing more than what I know.

You then ask
Would that open a door for temptation later on if i meet someone who 'meets' me on the level(s) that he doesnt?

Now the thing for me is that I already know the one who 'meets' me on the theological level I'm talking about. He and I share the same theological beliefs, but in a discussion, he can tell me things I've overlooked, forgotten about, or simply not known. I really enjoy that. And I have asked myself before (much like you have), am I opening myself to temptation by marrying my fiance but still hanging out with this other guy?

The answer I've come to: No. Why? Because there are SO MANY other things that my fiance does better than this other guy. SO many. And I just can't fathom ever preferring the 1 good thing this other guy can give me over the multitude of good things my fiance gives me. I also know their personalities and know that my fiance's is a personality I am much more likely to be able to cope with in a marriage situation than this other guy! :)

I realise our situations are a bit different but I hope this helped.

[79. Becky said the following at 11:52 AM on Mar 17:]

79

Hmmm ... this concept of spiritualizing "holding out" is interesting, Suzanne.

Something I think I've definitely been guilty of. I'm trying to learn to be open to whomever God has chosen for me.

[80. BDB said the following at 6:21 PM on Mar 17:]

80

Sandrine (#77) wrote:

>>and I was really happy he did not tell me before, because it gave me the chance to get to know him, without the pressure and expectations that would have come otherwise.<<

I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance...

[81. Katie B said the following at 8:17 PM on Mar 17:]

81

Sandrine: that is a wonderful story, the patience and maturity he showed is great, thank you for sharing.

BDB: I am all for women taking seminary classes, though I would discourage them taking it to find spouses, it might bring down the level of respect that the few women serious about the education and engaging as a peer get. I honestly find I get the most respect and consideration when I am the only women in the room.
Re: boundaries, I agree, one of the things that a man can most impress me with is by respecting my boundaries, calling me out if I am just defensive or scared, but showing a regard for the descisions that I have made for myself. That shows that a man cares for me more than what he wants from me. These things are not difficult to pick up on in a conversation or two, I have found it helpful to figure out which guys ignore or are oblivious to my boundries, and not to encourage them further. Its encouraging to know that some men think with their brains, use discernment and respect, like Sandrine's fiance. I have appreciated your input.

[82. Sandrine said the following at 9:23 PM on Mar 17:]

82

BDB (#80) wrote:
"I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance..."

Yes, I think it is better to wait a bit - the other person needs to know you enough to be sure that you are serious and really mean it. That said, I'm not saying you have to wait until after you are engaged to have this kind of conversation...

[83. Rachael said the following at 11:35 PM on Mar 17:]

83

BDB (80),

Good idea. Even if you felt God showed you someone was the right one, I definitely wouldn't tell her before she agreed to the courtship or whatever, unless maybe it was very soft and subtle or a mutual thing. But you can enjoy telling her after she says yes :)

[84. Jo said the following at 12:46 AM on Mar 18:]

84

BDB said "I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance..."

There's a big difference between stating interest and saying "I believe God is telling me you're the woman I'm going to marry". The first is great, the second is likely to scare most women away.

On that topic, a friend of mine was once approached by a lady he didn't know at a church meeting who said she felt God was calling them to be together. His response was "Well this is my wife standing next to me so I think you might be mistaken..."

[85. BDB said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 18:]

85

Jo (#84) wrote:

>>The first is great, the second is likely to scare most women away.<<

Yes, even people who believe in God's guidance can get freaked out.

I remember when I was buying my house, and I was pretty sure that this was the one God had led me to. I never told anyone that. But my real estate agent, who actually was a Charismatic Christian, periodically would say,

"Why are you so calm about this?"

I'd just say something like, "Oh, I prayed about this part, I have peace about it, I think it will be fine."

And it was...

[86. esther416 said the following at 7:47 PM on Mar 18:]

86

Additions to my previous post:

I wanted to (to BDB and others) say that the guy i was mentioning in my post (esther416 #24) never did ask me to lunch or make any attempt to pursue me in order to get to know me as just a friend. He, at least it seemed to me, just skipped the get to know you and growing friendship part and went straight to courtship.

[87. Esther said the following at 1:46 PM on Mar 19:]

87

Honestly I think when you hear people talking about waiting and the perceived shortage of good christian spouses before jumping to the conclusion that they are holding out for a unrealistic ideal you have to ask questions. Ask what "In your mind is lacking in the people around you?" The answers may surprise you. Some may have the unrealistic ideal mate in mind, others may have serious complaints about the people around them but do not know what to do to change the situation. Encourage them to pray for the women or men around them.

I must say that my complaint is that there is a lack in my circle of guys who defend the honor of women and esteem their role and place in the church and family. In my bible study there are two types of guys. First, there are the guys who give off this men are supiror to women attitude by make rude, unloving and demeaning comments about women. It seems they hold to "all a woman is good for is to cook, clean and bear children and thus belongs pregnant, bare foot and in the kitchen". The second type are those guys who do not give off that attitude but do not defend women either. Men need to be defending women not demeaning them ( even if it is joking and non sexual). We get enough garbage about ourselves in the world, we do not need it in the church.

[88. Mrs. Bethany Hudson said the following at 9:49 PM on Apr 1:]

88

I just found your site from Jess' at Making Home. Having recently graduated from college (nearly 2 years ago, now--wow time flies), I can definitely attest to this attitude. I remember how shocked even our InterVarsity staff (most of whom married in their late twenties...or were still waiting) were that my husband and I were getting married right out of college. I was 21 and he was 22 by one month. They were even more shocked that we were pregnant (yes, we wanted to be) 10 months later. I think that the fear of "settling" is quite pervasive in Christian circles, and frankly, I find this fear to be unbiblical.
Thanks for the thought-provoking post.
~Bethany

[89. M said the following at 7:34 AM on Apr 2:]

89

Alex B. #68,
My last boyfriend had a checkered past but had been saved for a few years when we went out. He pushed the boundaries with me, and then I found out he slept with a (non-Christian) girl a few months before we started dating. Church leadership found out about everything and discussed restricting him from certain activities, but it didn't happen. It's hard to see him at church events acting like nothing's happened.

[1. Louise said the following at 8:47 AM on Mar 12:]

1

Ms. Watters' "When to Settle" article quotes Ms. Gottlieb as stating:

"It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I couldn't find the above quote in Ms. Gottlieb's article...maybe I missed it...but this is a false statement.

Feeling alone in a marriage is beyond dreadful, and it is an experience that gradually chips away at one's self worth, energy, and lifeblood.

In this case, I am Ms. Koerner's lady from the top of the mountain (referencing her recent blog post about her family's experience climbing Pike's Peak).

I have been there.

I know.

[2. Jonathan said the following at 8:49 AM on Mar 12:]

2

So what happened with the guy on the plane?:-)

But seriously, good article. I completely agree that indecision and 'paralysis through analysis' are extremely common in the dating scene. Being a newly married (almost 1 year!!!) guy, I'm actually fairly amazed at what I now hear from single females in the church. I would say that about 90% of them have mentioned at some point to either me or my wife their frustration with how many single men they have known throughout their time in the church who have never asked any women out! Having been there I completely understand the risks involved if you ask a girl out and it doesn't work out in a church environment. If guys aren't careful it could fracture a group. However, sometimes I wonder if the females wouldn't mind even that alternative over the inaction and perpetual waiting that all too often seems to occur.

[3. Christina said the following at 9:50 AM on Mar 12:]

3

Well said, Jonathan.

[4. Alex B. said the following at 9:54 AM on Mar 12:]

4

I've been reading Boundless for a few months now and have yet to comment on anything, but I have to ask about the situation your companion on the plane outlined. Just how common is this attitude among young Christians? Frankly, if it's as prevalent as he suggests, then it's no wonder there's so little dating/courtship going on in some churches... If everyone were pastors, missionaries, and the like, then frankly, churches couldn't run; money has to come from somewhere.

There seems to be a trend I'm noticing among young people that are very active in church activities or have come from such a background (going to Bible college, etc.). Maybe it's because I've been reading sites like Boundless a lot more of late, but... sometimes I feel this horrible disconnect between "Christian youth types" (as my brain is starting to label them), and say, a conservative East Coast Presbyterian going for an engineering degree. Am I the only one who perceives this at times when reading Boundless and similar sites?

I'm not attempting to be critical here, if I'm coming off that way. I'm more just wondering how many other people are in a similar situation to myself, somewhere in the large gap between those who are only nominally Christian (i.e., the "I'm Christian according to my Facebook profile, but have uploaded pictures of myself drunk and inappropriate at parties" types) and the Bible college-going, working full-time in a ministry set.

Hope I'm not just rambling.

[5. Amir Larijani said the following at 10:34 AM on Mar 12:]

5

Suzanne: You are batting 2 for 2 on this one.

What happened to you folks at Boundless? All of a sudden you guys (and gals) are on a roll.

Louise took exception to the following statement:

It is better to feel alone [in] marriage than to actually be alone.

Louise, I don't want to dismiss your particular experience, as I cannot speak to it, and there are particular exceptions to just about every general statement.

It does seem, however, from a purely Biblical standpoint that--in general--Candice Watters is right.

I say that with the assumption of a marriage in which both husband and wife are believers. If there's a breakdown, then there's a spiritual issue and at least a possibility of some accountability.

Honestly, that's where singles can get burned: unless the single (and I mean this in a completely gender-neutral fashion) is proactive about being accountable at some level within the Body, their loneliness carries far more risks.

[6. Brooke said the following at 10:46 AM on Mar 12:]

6

you're exactly right Jonathan. or the guys don't ask the girls in church out because they are all just friends and not "exciting" enough. I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones. I don't know if it's the challenge or the ego boost, but the godly women aren't getting the dates from the christian guys for whatever reason. we are serving the Lord and trying to be patient, but I have only had ONE christian guy ask me out in my 28 yrs. Yet, worldy guys are interested and have the guts to go for it. it gets discouraging, when you actually would be willing to "settle" as Candice put it, but you have no opportunity to do so.

[7. obewan said the following at 11:19 AM on Mar 12:]

7

The blog said:

“I'm sure each single could generate his or her own similar "fantasy." And true, this notion that something better (or cuter or funnier) may be just around the corner, has the tendency to paralyze us in the "choosing" process.”

The problem I have is that sometimes it wasn’t a “fantasy”. The ultimate women came into my life when I was between the ages of 16 and 18 and not ready (for obvious reasons) to marry. There was the pastor’s niece, the captain of the girl’s volleyball team, the valedictorian, and many beautiful non-Christian young women.

We all bring our experiences from the past into the present. My logic keeps saying if I could have hooked up with so and so back whenever, why can’t I find someone similar now? (But at an age where marriage is possible of course.)

Worse still are the comparisons to non-Christian women. They are completely off limits I realize, but I have had beautiful non-Christian women throw themselves at me, whereas some homely Christian women have spurned my offers. I am not saying looks are everything, but it hurts to be rejected by Christian sisters (in some cases when they accept the advances of non-Christian men) when the worldly women made themselves available. I am sure this is true for Christian women as well.

[8. Dave said the following at 12:34 PM on Mar 12:]

8

It occured to me that the word "settle" in this context has such a bad connotation. In reality settling means -to decide. In this society we often worship choice and this is just another logical extension of us worshiping ourselves.

[9. Matt said the following at 12:40 PM on Mar 12:]

9

At first, I was not encouraged by Candice's article on "settling" in marriage, because this is a huge commitment that I don't believe you can compromise on. Aside from following Christ and spending time in His presence, who you spend the majority of your time with on a daily basis during your life is, to me, the most life-changing decision I will ever make.

And, I know it is taking our generation a little longer to marry then past generations, but I believe this is due to more opportunities for women to excel in college and post-college careers (you can tell this by how many women vs. men are currently in college right now - 56-44% I believe), more dating choices for men and women through better communication tools over the internet, and more of a focus in the church on an individualistic development in God (as opposed to a more communal atmosphere in times past). This is not due to our inability to decide nor our unwillingness to marry early, in my opinion.

This being said, I'm glad Candice qualified her article at the end by presenting a few "non-negotiables" for her female audience (and I wouldn't mind if she or another guy from Boundless wrote a similar non-negotiable list for the guys too). To me, as long as these elements are in place, it will not be "settling" by any means. I just feel like God has a good time and place for me to make this decision (and for you too!), and when He knows I am ready, He'll open my eyes and ears to His Will for my life. His timing matters more than mine.

[10. a sassy sister said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 12:]

10

This is a good article, however, there are several points that need to be stressed:

1.) If we want to be truly honest with ourselves, there are some women(and men) who would still be considered "holding out" by many churches in America, even when you use the standard listed in choosing a mate. And as far as that list in the article goes, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between having the APTITUDE FOR GROWTH and DEMONSTRATING THE APTITUDE FOR GROWTH. Potential cannot be simply seen by one's view of another; it must be demonstrated.

2.) We need to be unflinchingly honest about ALL the WHYS of our desires for marriage (GOOD AND BAD)and be Biblically balanced in the way we address them. Marriage is honorable, but I'm not primarily choosing to marry someone so that I can finally feel like I matter as a person(or that the church can actually pay attention to my needs), or so I won't feel lonely anymore, or even so I can satisfy my maternal and sexual desires. I refuse to marry because other people think I should, because culture thinks I should, or because my biological urges say I should. I am aware of these desires, but they cannot be the PRIMARY AND DECIDING FACTORS for me to marry someone. You can call me superspiritual all you want, but I know myself well enough to know that I don't want to make a covenant decision based on fear(and I'm not talking about reverence and awe here); I want to make it based on God's wisdom, unconditional love,and unconditional respect. I also believe that in order for me to really be able to make such a decision, I need to be clear in understanding my worth and value as a woman from God's Word, and I need to have a solid understanding of my purpose and identity as a person. I also know that I cannot demand or hold out for a godly man if I am not already growing in God and allowing him to discipline me as a godly woman, on all levels. I've seen TOO MANY people, young and old, settle for spiritually immature, irresponsible spouses because they allowed their fears of being alone and not having children cloud their judgment, not to mention, waste time twiddling their hands. Those who think marriage solves the loneliness issue, think again---there are lots of lonely people in relationships, in marriages, and most people looking on the outside would think that they were never experiencing loneliness.

2.) I see nothing wrong with people desiring marriage. What I am troubled by is when we allow our insecurities, fears and social pressures to magnify the desire so much that we ignore what God is telling us do right now with our lives, and we obssess about the future without taking care of the needs of the day. I've seen it played out in both extremes: the woman who focuses solely on getting married and having children so much that you never hear her talk about her faith except when it's used to support her obsession with marriage and family.

OR

the woman who wallows extensively in self-pity so much that she misses opportunities TO BE PRODUCTIVE as a woman of God, PERIOD(i.e., she is so busy complaining about the lack of available prospects that she fails to be a good steward of the gifts, time, and relationship that God has given her RIGHT NOW). Please understand preparing for marriage is not wrong, but I always thought that when you are a responsible, mature person walking with God(based out of love, obedience and reverence for God) then you prepare yourself for marriage, rather than when you see marriage as THE ULTIMATE FINISH LINE(translation: my life will finally make sense when I get married and have kids)and run the race to the altar as fast as you can.

3.) In our criteria for marrying and choosing a mate, we must understand that in order for it to be done successfully, we cannot force the creation of relationships that are not there. If he/she isn't interested, learn from it and keep it moving! Just because a person isn't attracted to doesn't always mean that you need to find someone or something to blame for that disappointment; it could mean that there are certain lessons that you need to learn ALONE before you choose to marry.

[11. Jeffrey said the following at 12:46 PM on Mar 12:]

11

When it comes to dating I am reminded of a pithy little remark that goes a long way toward summarizing the paralysis Christian men and women seem to be encountering these days:

"Don’t let the better become the enemy of the good."

I think that nowadays with the relatively new formation of a social structure far and away more egalitarian than any previous generation, there has arisen in relationships between men and women a number of hugely inflated expectations of each other that do not correlate with reality. This arrangement blinds us from noticing the good and virtuous qualities in those around us out of deference to some kind of idealistic wonder-man or woman who will grant the perfect level of comfort, safety and satisfaction in a relationship. This is all wistfully manifested in the social dynamics that most of us live according to ("friends first", etc.) as way to give the present social habits of young adults some kind of tenuously spiritual justification.

Much of the present situation is caused not by a lack of men, women, or some otherwise convenient circumstance that could be blamed, but is probably due to good old fashioned spoiling and pickiness.

[12. Anna said the following at 1:03 PM on Mar 12:]

12

I think sometimes we hold out too long, and other times we don't hold out long enough. It is a balance and we need to consider whether we're being wise or not.

So Suzanne... did the guy ask you for your number? :)

[13. Rachel said the following at 1:05 PM on Mar 12:]

13

I have to admit, the concept of knowing multiple Christian singles, having the opportunity to date and not doing so because you might be "settling" is truly mystifying to me. I live in a medium-sized city. I go to a decently-sized church. (approaching 400 people) I am one of 4--count them, 4--singles. Three of us are woman and the lone man has declared his determination to stay single until after completing his degree.

I've read the articles on Boundless, I've read the blogs. There are many encouragements to move forward, to find your mate. But not many articles address what happens when there are absolutely none to be had.

So, all of you who have the chance to not "hold back" and to pursue a relationship, be openminded and go for it. Believe me--there are those who would like to take your place.

[14. Andrew said the following at 1:08 PM on Mar 12:]

14

Jonathan said: Having been there I completely understand the risks involved if you ask a girl out and it doesn't work out in a church environment.

I completely agree that there are risks involved. This is why I wonder how so many people can say that it is a good idea to date somebody from church.

First, there is the risk that, if you allow for the possibility of dating somebody from church, you will go to church to meet people of the opposite sex rather than to learn about God and worship him.

Also, if things do not work out, then you have to see that person at church or go to a different church. Of course, a similar problem could arise if you date somebody from another place that you frequent.

It seems, then, that the only remaining option is to date people that you meet at places that you never go. This would present obvious problems. Does anyone have any thoughts on this conundrum?

[15. Louise said the following at 1:27 PM on Mar 12:]

15

Amir, with all due respect to both your opinions and those of Ms. Watters, I am the veteran of a bad marriage.

To the best of my knowledge, you and Ms. Watters are not and believe me when I say I wouldn't want either of you or anyone else on this earth to go through the years of he-- that I went through.

The belief that being alone in a marriage is better than actually being alone is simply not true.

I have been there.

I know.

I may be an outsider here due to my secular worldview, but this is a matter that I am familiar with due to personal experience.

If you choose not to believe me, that is of course your right.

:)

May the higher power bless you.

I will not be posting another comment re this subject. It brings up too many painful memories.

[16. Amir Larijani said the following at 1:45 PM on Mar 12:]

16

Louise:

I absolutely believe your experience. This is why I differentiated between particular and general.

Something can be logically true in general terms, while not applying in every specific case.

In addition, I qualified my case with respect to a Christian married to a fellow Christian and did not apply that to the context in which one or both partners are not Christian.

[17. BDB said the following at 1:57 PM on Mar 12:]

17

Brooke (#6) said:

>>Yet, worldy guys are interested and have the guts to go for it. <<

Obewan (#7) said:

>>but I have had beautiful non-Christian women throw themselves at me, <<

Yes...it's very interesting...both non-Christian men and women are more aggressive about showing interest. It doesn't necessarily mean sex, either. Many Christian women seem to refuse lunch with any man they're not ready to marry. Non-Christian women don't have this hang-up. And frankly, if a Christian man sets physical boundaries, even non-Christian women seem to appreciate not having to fight him off.

Aside from non-Christians being more aggressive, there is the dynamic of women who travel in a pack and compare notes.

I once had lunch plans with a women, who then cancelled because her sister (who'd never met me) thought it was inappropriate because we volunteered in the same ministry. A few months later I was introduced to this sister. Is it worth the effort to try and win her over? Or should they both written off as being unrealistic?

(Ironically, I had a non-Christian woman invite me to lunch a few days later. I paid.)

As Christina (in green) wrote in a different thread, I do think it's inappropriate to sit in a Bible study and complain that there is no one suitable "available," when such people are sitting in the same room. I've seen both men and women do this.

Come to think of it, my pastor's daughter DOES kind of look like a cheerleader, even though she's now a nurse leading medical missions trips. She was just telling me why she broke up with the guy she was dating...what was that reason again...

[18. Kay said the following at 1:57 PM on Mar 12:]

18

OK, here's a situation. I am dating a guy right now who meets all the qualifications on the list in Candice's post. We've been dating 4 months. And I'm about to end it. Mainly because as much as I TRY to have more than friendship feelings for him I just can't. There's a lot about his personality that annoys me and even though I still enjoy the time we spend together to a point I can kind of take it or leave it. And I don't want to marry him. But is the article saying that I need to anyway? That if he meets those Godly requirements nothing else should matter?

[19. Patrick said the following at 2:09 PM on Mar 12:]

19

So, what happened with the guy on the plane? ;-)

[20. BDB said the following at 2:14 PM on Mar 12:]

20

Amir (#16) wrote:

>>Something can be logically true in general terms, while not applying in every specific case.<<

No, Louise is right. It's generally not true. Adultery happens in part due to neglect of one spouse for the needs of another. They think, "why not? My spouse doesn't care about my needs." As my pastor would say, "There's no life there." But there are lots of people who expect marriage to cure their loneliness who discover that it does not, and all sorts of problems result. Ask anyone who counsels couples.

[21. Christina said the following at 2:30 PM on Mar 12:]

21

Andrew - did it ever occur to you that church is about having relationships with believers as much as building ur relationshp with God?

That always bothered me in youth group and youth retreats, where the pastors constantly said "we're here to learn about God, not for socializing". Well, buddy, you got it half right.

And seriously, having that attitude is more damaging than letting them build relationships and socialize in an atmosphere where the youth pastor and other adults can teach them about the GODLY way of pursuing relationships with their peers.

No man is an island...and we weren't created to be an island. We were created to need God AND others. God first, of course.

[22. Patrick said the following at 2:34 PM on Mar 12:]

22

Hi Kay,

I don't think the article is saying you "need" to marry anyone you don't genuinely want to marry. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the article is more geared towards Christian singles who are either (1) prone to weighing "lesser" qualities (e.g. looks) in a potential spouse above "greater" qualities (e.g. godliness), or (2) prone to have an overly demanding and/or extra-biblical checklist for what to look for in a potential spouse. From what I understand, I don't think the article is implying you "need" to marry someone you don't genuinely want to marry.

Although, I should add, there's something to be said for the sort of love that grows over time from friendship to romance. As Gen. 24:67 reads: "Then Isaac brought her into the tent of Sarah his mother and took Rebekah, and she became his wife, and he loved her." I don't know if every biblical commentator would agree, but I have heard some say that it was after Rebekah "became his wife" that Isaac "loved her." Even if this isn't true, though, I do think in cases such as yours that it's possible for your feelings for your current boyfriend to warm over time into romantic feelings, like cold soup warming up to hot soup. But that's up to you to determine. In other words, I'm not at all suggesting you should wait it out and see if your current boyfriend grows on you or whatever. Maybe you're totally right to break it off with him right now. But it's just something else to consider.

By the way, this was hard for me to write, because a godly Christian girl recently broke up with me for essentially, I believe, the same or at least very similar reasons to what you're going through with your current boyfriend. We dated or courted for roughly the same amount of time you and your boyfriend have been dating, but she just didn't see me as anymore than a friend. However, as sad as it is for me to say now, I totally respect her decision, and do believe she made the right one for her at this point in her life.

patrick

[23. Christina said the following at 2:44 PM on Mar 12:]

23

About the dating within the christian community (meaning, church family, bible studies, etc), I don't think there would be anything wrong with it (even if things did go sour) if there was nothing inappropriate about the relationship and how it ended and both parties are adults about the relationship.

Finding a spouse within the local church community has always been the the staple for finding a good christian spouse. You are surrounded by people that know you both well, you are not isolated, and your relationship becomes part of the community. Even if things don't work out, there exists strong, christian support for both of you that will come to your aid and pray for you. This seems like the ideal place to date (with the purpose of marrying).

Honestly, if you can't handle it, maybe ur not ready to date.

[24. Esther416 said the following at 3:00 PM on Mar 12:]

24

Would it be considered holding out if I rejected a guy for the following reasons:
1. he is only an acquiantance(we only see eachother at bible study)
2. I had no feelings other than a general concern that one would feel towards any human being
3. My close friends and my dad (whom the guy wanted my permission ask to court me but had never met) advised me to turn him down?

Where does one's own heart come in? Shouldn't we be waiting for God's best? I think that there is an assumption that because a girl does not accpet the first or second guy who asks her out she somehow has unrealistic expectations. If a person has a heart for missions and that is God's plan then why wouldn't a woman wait for a missions minded guy? I have friend who is 27 and seems almost certain that God is leading her towards missions in Vietnam, she has always said that she would want a guy that has the same heart.

[25. Patrick said the following at 3:03 PM on Mar 12:]

25

Hi Kay,

Also, regarding what you said about your boyfriend's personality annoying you. I wonder if it's possible that your boyfriend doesn't generally really have an "annoying" personality, but that it's annoying to you now because your feelings for him are conflicted (friendship vs. romance)? And so his personality starts to grate on you even though it probably wouldn't normally grate on you if you had, for example, never dated but simply been friends?

My sister once told me about one of her ex-boyfriends that she broke up with. She told me that, even though now in retrospect she can see that he was a great guy, with a fun and loving personality, at the time because she really wasn't into him at all, a lot of the things he would do or say would annoy her or bug her in some way. It wasn't due to anything in him, per se, but it was primarily because she was struggling with her own feelings about him. And I've heard similar stories from others (and I've also experienced the same myself in past relationships). Today, thankfully, both my sister and her ex-boyfriend are happily married (to other people), so she can look back at this with more objectivity than when she was in the relationship, when she could really only see things through the subjective lense of the feelings that she was struggling with at the time.

Just a thought?

patrick

[26. DannieA said the following at 3:19 PM on Mar 12:]

26

There is a Cuban saying that goes something like this: (well my parents are cuban and my family all knows what this means)

"Es mejor estar solo que mal acompanado"

please excuse the fact that I can't put the squiggly line on the last word on the 'n'.

It means 'it is better to be alone than in a bad companionship' usually referred for dating/married purposes.

I believe that with all my heart. That being said, I don't think we should be unrealistic (back to part 1) about a good person that is here and now...and no we shouldn't 'settle'...

[27. Jethro said the following at 4:21 PM on Mar 12:]

27

I actually read that article in the Atlantic and believe me it is pretty depressing. I would hardly be holding it up as a good example of what people should do.

Everyone must settle to some extent because we must all be acutely aware that no person is perfect, but there is a difference between accepting a person's faults and loving them anyway, and settling for someone who you don't really love at all.

Suzanne - did anything happen with your new friend? Date maybe?

[28. Kathryn said the following at 5:22 PM on Mar 12:]

28

I would like to weigh in the on the "It is better to feel alone [in] marriage than to actually be alone." statement.

What do we mean by alone? Do we merely mean the opposite of married? In which case, I personally would take "being alone" than alone in marriage.

The way I see it, if I'm alone, I'm not really because I still have my relationship with God to sustain me. He is my sole provider and the giver of all my needs. He hears my prayer and I am held in the palm of His hand.

If I'm married and feeling alone in that, then God isn't my only support. My husband is meant to be supporting me in everything (just as I am meant to be support him in everything) but he isn't (if I'm feeling alone). To have that kind of emotional dependence on him and then him not giving me that support, I imagine would be terrible. God would still be present in that relationship, I've no doubt, but not having support from my own husband would be rather destructive to my own self worth and self esteem.

I would pick alone, rather than alone in marriage. That being said, I will still take the risk of marriage if I believe that I'm marrying a good and Godly man.

An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 1 Corinthians 7:34

[29. Katie B said the following at 5:37 PM on Mar 12:]

29

Kay, I was in the same position about a year ago, though I held out for a bit longer, my conflicted feelings just increased to the point I no longer wanted to be around him at all, but as soon as I broke up with him he got a whole lot more attractive, since I could then look at him as simply a person, not having the question 'is he the right one?' pressing down on me.
I agree with Patrick and Matt, the checklist isnt all there is, you have to like the guy enough to want him around every day for the rest of your life.

Aside: As a girl in my early 20s who has been one to turn down several guys who are trying to pursue me, then complain that there arent enough 'good christian guys' out there, I'd like to say something. Its not because I set my sights to high, its because I have that non negotiable list, which is mostly what candice posted, but the way guys pursue me is either very immature or shows that they do not care to be spiritual leaders in the relationship, often the manner of their 'courtship' violates some of the non negotiables. I have my own issues to work on, girls tend to, but guys need to step it up, not in frequency or boldness, but in maturaty, wisdom, and brotherly love.

[30. Shannon said the following at 5:44 PM on Mar 12:]

30

from andrew:
"Also, if things do not work out, then you have to see that person at church or go to a different church. Of course, a similar problem could arise if you date somebody from another place that you frequent.

It seems, then, that the only remaining option is to date people that you meet at places that you never go. This would present obvious problems. Does anyone have any thoughts on this conundrum?"

This is really not that melodramatic. The thing is to be an adult! All relationships end, until one doesn't. So you go to the same church after a breakup: say hello! Nod and smile! This fear of tension, of awkwardness, and of discomfort is really too much. Life is uncomfortable sometimes, but you have to risk it in order to get the good stuff!

[31. Amir Larijani said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 12:]

31

Esther: If your parents are not favorable toward the relationship, that is--more often than not--a big-time red flag.

(That's not a blanket statement for all cases, but rather a general rule. Honoring mother and father is still a valid command, even in adulthood.)

I would still give strong consideration to what my dad--who is not a Christian--has to say.

More than likely, he would be very favorable to whatever choice I was making in this area--he wants me to find a wife as badly as I want to find one--so if he told me he thought I was stepping in it, I would listen very carefully to what he has to say.

[32. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 6:05 PM on Mar 12:]

32

BdB,
Love hearing your stories. They crack me up every time. Loved the one about the flaming Mazda in the car park. Guess it would make it easier to spot where you’d left it. I had some trashy cars when I was younger, but they never went up in flames.

Back on topic: I do think that church culture can work against guys being proactive. Sometimes this is “holding out” and sometimes it is not. Relationship dynamics within the church can be threatened by guys asking girls out. I personally found it easier to approach women at college. It was somehow less hard to ask them out. If they turned you down, the “group” was more fluid and seemed to cope with it better, as many students belonged to different churches.

The nature of college and the opportunities to talk about what you are studying, what you want to do when you graduate, and so on, made it an ideal environment to ponder compatibility, intent and direction. Missions minded people who go to bible colleges do the same thing. Assess who people are and where they intend on going with their lives.

Are people holding out? Maybe. Sociologists talk about the rise of the “options” generation, holding back on making choices because something new and different may come along. Be it a better job, church, or date … “settling” is seen as second-rate. But we also remember that a changed job market means it takes longer to educate ourselves, and the age at which we can support ourselves (and a family, by extension) is pushed further out.

The logical conclusion of course is that in some ways we are “holding out” and in some ways we aren’t. Assuming we are self-supporting, then holding out for the mythical soul mate is one way to miss out on the blessing of a good marriage. But marrying inappropriately, or too young, or for the wrong reasons is another way to (unnecessarily) complicate your life.

It seems that finding the right balance between “holding out” and “settling” is an ongoing debate. Looking back now with the benefit of experience, of the women I dated (and there weren’t that many, in case you were wondering), some would have made good spouses and some may not have (at least for me, anyway). Partly this was timing; partly it was personality; and partly preferences.

Of course the one perfectly good reason for “holding out” is if the potential interest is not Christian, and has no intention of moving in that direction. Seen it happen to others and been tempted by it too. Very difficult to resist when some Christians actually encourage you to move in that direction.

[33. Kelly said the following at 6:41 PM on Mar 12:]

33

BDB said: "Many Christian women seem to refuse lunch with any man they're not ready to marry. "

That's a sad consequence of our society. Too many times I've accepted a date and had it turn into an expectation of sex.

The problem is, you can never tell before the date if the guy is going to be one of those or not (unless you know him really well). Even if he says he's a Christian it still doesn't guarantee if he follows God's instructions on purity.

So yeah, to avoid ugliness, I have been known to turn down dates. Sorry guys. "Once bitten, twice shy" springs to mind.

[34. Kelly said the following at 7:14 PM on Mar 12:]

34

"It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I also DISAGREE with this. If you are alone and single, you still have hope. If you're alone in marriage, where can you turn? You're trapped.

--

Also, re: settling. I was once dating a man who had the qualities mentioned. There was just one major problem for me. His marital expecations included intimate relations EVERY NIGHT (and given how much pressure I was put under for that, pre-marriage, I have no doubt it would have happened post-marriage). To add to this, he was a divorcee (I was trying not to judge!) and apparently that was the way things were in his first marriage.

Is that really a better life than singleness? Sacficing yourself to your spouse every night because he meets the Biblical definition of what a husband should be?

I think not.

[35. Jenna said the following at 7:32 PM on Mar 12:]

35

I totally relate to these articles. I am almost 29 years old and have been fortunate to have dated a lot of men in my twenties, yet here I am, still single. I don't feel like I have had an unrealistic list of what i want in a man. I have been careful to only date Christians but I have not found any man that had all of the "non-negitiables" she lists. If I had, I would have married him in a heartbeat. I do think that settling is the way to go and that it is better to just "move on with your life" and purpose in your mind to love another imperfect human being whom GOd created rather than continue on in singleness. I think tons more people settle than they are willing to admit and are happier because of it in the long run.

[36. Kellie said the following at 7:52 PM on Mar 12:]

36

I have reason to be glad for some Christian girls not settling. My husband was part of a good size young adult group before we met, several single guys and even more single girls. I suspect they couldn't see past outward appearance to get to know a wonderful Christian man. And what was better for him: Being with a girl who settled or one who adores him?

[37. Dan (real name) said the following at 7:52 PM on Mar 12:]

37

Kay (#18):

You ask a good question. Here is my take from a past experience of mine: If there are things about him that annoy you, do you think that dating longer and/or getting married is going to make those annoying things disappear? That is something that I realized in a relationship. About the other person in my life, it wasn't immoral things, just things I didn't want to be around (and it wasn't trivial stuff).

That might not help, but it is something that happened to me, and realizing that there are things about another person that may NEVER change, you (and I) have to look at it from a viewpoint of "is this something I can tolerate?"

[38. Laura said the following at 8:38 PM on Mar 12:]

38

Esther416 (24) -- I think that, with regard to similar calling, those things can change.

I had a friend who was determined to do missions in China. Then a young pastor several states away saw on her blog a rant about men who never ask women out, and he picked up the gauntlet and asked her out. They've been married for over two years now. I had another friend who decided to go ahead with her plans to do missions in Spain, where she met her now-husband, a native of Spain, who had a completely different career path.

In other words, I think there are times when the Lord puts a passion in our hearts for a particular place or people group, even if he doesn't ultimately that place in our future. He uses our prayers and our passions for his will too!

Regarding the phrase "God's best" -- what does that mean? I hear it a lot but don't really get it. It sounds like God has a "plan A," which is his best plan, but if we screw it up, we get "plan B." From my reading of Scripture, God doesn't have a "plan B."

[39. BDB said the following at 9:08 PM on Mar 12:]

39

Responding to Esther416 (#24):

My thoughts:

#1 is "holding out," because one of the best ways to get to know an acquaintance is over lunch. If you only see someone in a group, he may never, ever, have a chance to even hold a real conversation with you. Most women I see at church are interrupted every 2 minutes or so by someone wanting to say "hi." - makes it quite hard to have much of a conversation at church. Much better to take an hour over lunch and then it's possible to really have some back-and-forth.

#2 is "holding out" because feelings is a bad way to make decisions, and they don't develop until AFTER you know someone. If a person has "feelings" about someone they don't know, it's "infatuation." I'm not sure if curiousity is a feeling, but that's enough of a reason to invite someone to lunch.

#3 IS a legitmate reason to turn someone down. Warnings by both parents and friends especially. If it's just a friend saying, "he's not cool enough," that's not a legitimate reason.

[40. Kenya said the following at 9:40 PM on Mar 12:]

40

Esther416 -

I think you hit on a great point that, in my reading and exploring, occasionally gets left out of mainstream Christian guides for single people. God is the one who directs our path. We should look to God's wisdom and guidance when it comes to dating/courting and marriage.

However, I think the point Suzanne was making is that many of us have been brainwashed by romance novels, Disney movies, and the rest of popular culture into thinking there's a perfect, gorgeous hunk of a Prince Charming out there who will read our minds, wait on us hand and foot, and make us ethereally happy for the rest of our lives. For better or worse, that's nothing more than a fairy tale!

It's time for both genders to dial back their fairy tale expectations. I'm not married - I can't claim to know the joys and hardships that go along with it. But I'm now looking for godly man. If he happens to be short and balding instead of resembling Hollywood's latest leading man, I'll love him for it.

[41. Gary said the following at 7:40 AM on Mar 13:]

41

Esther416(#24): I think the first two reasons are not necessarily a reason to not date a guy, however, listening to the counsel of your friends and your dad does seem like a wiser reason to not date him. I would inquire though their reasons for their opinion, and make sure they are grounded in scripture.

Also, regarding waiting for God's best, how is that defined exactly? You speak of your friend who is *almost* certain she is being called to missions. I think it's shortsighted for her (or anyone) to not date a guy who meets all of the basic requirements laid out in the post, because she has an inkling that God *might* call her to missions. I say she should give him a chance. Who knows, God's best may have nothing to do with missions, or if it does, who says that a guy who has shown no interest in missions up to that point does not receive a call to missions thereafter.

My basic point is that people should be open minded about dating, and not rule someone out automatically unless they do not meet basic Christian dating requirements.

[42. Kay said the following at 7:46 AM on Mar 13:]

42

Patrick
Thanks for the response and thoughts esp since this is something that has affected you recently! You make a good point about the personality annoyances and I have thought about that in the past. The problem is I have been trying really hard to make it work with this guy. We are very different in our spiritual backgrounds and how we were raised and he is completely different from guys I've dated in the past. Which is a good thing for the most part. And I really wanted him to be the one. I'm READY to meet someone I can marry! But I have prayed from the beginning that God would make it very clear to me if this guy is what is best so I have to believe that God would not want me to try and force something to be there that's not. I am wondering how much longer I should give the relationship. I want to give it a chance but the longer I wait the more chance there is that this guy will be hurt even more.

[43. annie said the following at 8:51 AM on Mar 13:]

43

hi Kay,

I can totally identify with you!

I'm in the same situation and one of the things i worry about is that my boyfirend is not very intellectual. not a big deal i guess- but i thrive on debate and trivia and information- which means that there's some conversations we just dont share, there are some jokes that he just wouldnt get (please understand i'm not looking down on him AT ALL) he's just not that way.

But he fits the 'Candice List' -perfectly in every other way. And he's a great guy, with a warm heart, who loves me (and i can be so unloveable sometimes!)
He prays with and for me- and he's trying to live life right.

I know that it probably sounds like a no- brainer to most, but i'm not so convinced.
Should i call it off? Are we better off remaining friends? Am i robbing him the love of a woman who really does love him just the way he is?

Is it unfair to 'settle' for him when i know that the depth of my feeling is nowhere near his?

Would that open a door for temptation later on if i meet someone who 'meets' me on the level(s) that he doesnt?

what if?what if? what if??

Analysis of paralysis...that's us!

But if someone (God preferably) could say "Sweets, this is The Man for you" i'd marry him without a second thought.

But i guess no-one does the hard yards for you.

Hey,on another note: WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GUY ON THE PLANE?? :)

[44. obewan said the following at 9:15 AM on Mar 13:]

44

Kay:

"...Regarding what you said about your boyfriend's personality annoying you."

I had the same problem with my last serious girlfriend. From the get go she insisted that she was not interested in dating me unless the relationship would lead to a marriage. That put an insane amount of undue pressure on me. I told her that I did not want biological children (due to a bad gene). She refused to listen and said that if she fell in love it would not matter, but at the same time insisted that she wanted children of her own. We would get in fights about not getting in a fight if you know what I mean. I had a real hard time getting to know her beyond a superficial level because she would not let me get close, but she was very interested in passionate kissing - which I put a stop to. She would start fights over nothing by asking: "Why won't you tell me what's wrong?" I would answer: "Nothing is wrong." She would answer, "You just won't tell me." At that point, something WAS wrong. Ultimately, I was put out of my misery and we broke up. I guess that fact that I was not hurt means I never could have fallen in love with her.

[45. Stefanie said the following at 9:16 AM on Mar 13:]

45

Regarding Kay's situation and Patrick's responses:
I appreciate that the type of situation Kay describes illustrates an important issue at hand in this discussion. She has clearly given the relationship a chance, but there comes a point, I believe, when continuing in a relationship you know not to be completely mutual becomes a bit unfair. To both involved. I speak from an experience that was similar. Based solely on the list of non-negotiables, I knew one of the best husband candidates out there. And he was interested in me! And it was thrilling and scary at the same time. I cared for him, found him physically attractive, and we had a strong friendship. But I felt almost exactly how Kay describes her feelings. I spent a long time battling with myself over whether I was settling or being too picky or not open-minded enough to what God was presenting to me. But at the risk of sounding idealistic, I believe there are certain feelings that you cannot (and should not) invent for another person. And while I don't expect that relationships be as perfect and sweep-you-off-your-feet dramatic as movies would have us believe, I do still hold out hope that the elusive "chemistry" can exist. Or if that word is too cliche for your taste, then replace it with what you will. The bottom line was, I knew I did not feel much for him beyond a (perhaps too-close) friendship. There was a fuller attraction, beyond a physical level, that was just not present.
The unfortunate part of my experience is that my battle over whether or not I was giving it a chance translated into a lot of hurt for us both, and a strange sense of limbo that went on for far too long for both of us. I realized in the end that my unwillingness to make a decision was costly and hurtful to him and to me. And it was definitely not respectful.

I do agree with Patrick that the annoyance might be a reflection of your own frustration (I was never more annoyed with my friend than when I was wrestling with indecision about our relationship).
And I do believe love can grow over time, and sometimes wonderful things aren't gift-wrapped by God in the shiny ribbon we want. But my experience has taught me that there is a balance to be struck between giving everything a chance and being willing to be honest and fair when you know you don't feel for someone what they feel for you.

[46. Stefanie said the following at 9:33 AM on Mar 13:]

46

Also, as a separate comment, Brooke, in comment #6, said,
"I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones."

I just wanted to caution against this line of distinction between 'godly' and 'damaged' girls. I have the impression that the 'damaged' girls referred to are ones that are Christians who have a few more wounds than others (or perhaps more unsavory wounds than others?). If this is the case, I would like to stand in defense of us. There is already a hard struggle against the enemy for wounded women to believe God when He says we are clean, we are holy, and we are His.
And if my assumption was wrong, and the word was meant to describe non-Christian women, I think it could have been said in the simple terms of believing or non-believing.

I know this comment diverges from the line of the intended discussion, and I apologize for the distraction, and I also don't want to be combative toward Brooke. I agreed with her observation of the fact that non-christian men seem to be more open to pursuit than Christians.
I just felt the need to express concern over wording that can be a barb to some hearts, without the author intending it.

[47. Suzanne said the following at 10:16 AM on Mar 13:]

47

You guys are all so sweet wanting to know the "rest of the story." :) Rest assured that Plane Guy knows how to reach me. And I'm thrilled to have made a new friend.

[48. a sassy sister said the following at 12:55 PM on Mar 13:]

48

I agree with Kenya. However, I am fully aware of the fact that I do need to have SOME level of physical attraction to them (this cuts both ways). I am not waiting for a perfect man, because I am reminded daily of how we are ALL IMPERFECT.

But I also think that this goes deeper than fairy tale expectations of marrying someone---I think it speaks to our understanding and our ideas about what a successful, fulfilled life really is.

[49. Lynne said the following at 12:58 PM on Mar 13:]

49

Wow, what interesting reading. It's been a long (long) time since I've dated, because I'm married. However, as I read this, one thing jumps out at me...
Your spouse is not there to meet all your needs...yes, I know the frequent response is that only God can do that. This is true, but your spouse doesn't have to meet all your friendship needs either. As my husband of 18 years and I like to say "I will never be philosophical enough for him (despite my multiple graduate degrees : ) and he will never be silly enough for me" That's why we have friends, not just couple friends, individual friends that meet my need to shop for multiple pairs of black mary jane shoes, and his to talk deeply about all kinds of things...and watch the Braves : )

[50. Kristie said the following at 1:13 PM on Mar 13:]

50

Candice's blog post refers to the article titled "Marry Him!" by Lori Gottlieb found here http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry
You will note that there are MANY disturbing thoughts coming from this blog. Yes, there is choosing to "settle" for a man who can love you and care for you and lead you and in return you can love and respect him, but it is a TOTALLY different thing to just settle for any guy who comes along claiming to be a Christian. Look at these instances she uses and says are OK! These quotes form the article that is being referred to are SO completely illogical.

"Based on my observations, in fact, settling will probably make you happier in the long run, since many of those who marry with great expectations become more disillusioned with each passing year."

"Once you’re married, it’s not about whom you want to go on vacation with; it’s about whom you want to run a household with. Marriage isn’t a passion-fest; it’s more like a partnership formed to run a very small, mundane, and often boring nonprofit business."

"They, like me, would rather feel alone in a marriage than actually be alone, because they, like me, realize that marriage ultimately isn’t about cosmic connection—it’s about how having a teammate, even if he’s not the love of your life, is better than not having one at all." --- not the love of your life?!?!

"So if you rarely see your husband—but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own—how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?" - not marrying the one God has for you but hey, he takes out the trash and brings home the money!

"That’s why mothers tell their daughters to “keep an open mind” about the guy who spends his weekends playing Internet poker or touches your back for two minutes while watching ESPN and calls that “a massage.”"

[51. Anna said the following at 1:17 PM on Mar 13:]

51

Brooke (#6): "I see a trend among christian men - ignoring the godly girls and going for the damaged ones. I don't know if it's the challenge or the ego boost, but the godly women aren't getting the dates from the christian guys for whatever reason."

I, too, am bothered by the implication that "damaged" = ungodly. I am a devout Christ-follower who also happens to have two chronic mental illnesses (one serious and one relatively minor) along with emotional "baggage" from a failed past relationship. That combination makes it exceedingly difficult to believe that I'm "worthy" of a Godly man, and while God is slowly teaching me to find my worth in Him, comments like this one only widen the gap I feel between myself and the "good Christian girls" with perma-smiles and no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness.

I've also observed that woundedness or "damage" in a Christian is often accompanied by a depth of true humility that "healthy" people have never had to cultivate. Could that be what draws the men you've encountered toward the women they pursue?

[52. Holly said the following at 1:39 PM on Mar 13:]

52

I'm not sure if this is appropriate for this particular post or not, but here goes. I was talking to a married friend last night. She's been married for 3 years, and she told me that her husband used to write her little notes when they were dating/first married. He no longer does this, and when she brought it up to him, he stated, "That was a different phase of our relationship." It made me view marriage quite a bit differently. His response seemed pretty cold, to me. So, does this mean when you are no longer in the "pursual" stage, it's okay to ignore a wife's desires for something as small as a little note?

The reason I'm writing this here, is because I want to hold out for someone who will not just coldly brush aside something so small, that would make me still feel desired and loved. How do you sense this when you're in the dating stage of your relationship? How do you know when someone is merely writing you notes so that he'll "catch you," not because he cares about you, because he knows that's something that will keep the relationship and romance alive? It's all very disillusioning.

[53. Geoff Youngs said the following at 2:42 PM on Mar 13:]

53

Who came up with the term "settling"? It has a fatalism that comes from the "there is only one person on God's green earth who could ever make me happy" myth.

We are not the helpless victims of circumstance - nor should be slaves to our feelings. Surely when I marry it shouldn't be because I found the [hottest/holiest/most pastor's daughter-ish] girl within reach. Nor because I "settled" for the someone I didn't care for, but who was available. It should be because I chose a girl and I promised to love and cherish her until death us do part. That's not settling - that's a practical understanding of the beauty of the doctrine of election! Any other basis for commitment has the potential to become grounds for a divorce.

The idea that this is "settling" seems to come from a glut of rom-coms which lead our secular contemporaries to live emotionally distant and disconnected lives, never enjoying the security and affirmation of total commitment because they can't stop looking around the corner. A perverse notion from a culture that defines "commitment" as sexual activity rather than the life-long forsaking of all others.

[54. Paul H said the following at 3:04 PM on Mar 13:]

54

I haven't read any of the comments, so I apologize if I'm repeating someone else's points...

Suzanne's post points out another lethal consequence of the idea that God "writes your love story" or that He is the ultimate matchmaker. Besides producing passivity in singles - men in particular - as they endlessly "wait on the Lord" for a spouse, it also creates unreasonable expectations as they hold out for "God's best." After all, if God has just one woman or man picked out for each of us, that person is surely at least as fabulous as they are in my fantasies (*cough*).

This quote is from an article called, "Is God a Matchmaker" by Blaine Smith and it sums up this phenomenon nicely:

"The belief that God has one ideal choice also leads some to be too idealistic about whom they would consider marrying. Since God is perfect, it is felt that you must not settle for anyone who less than fully measures up to your image of the ideal mate. Such persons are quick to bail out of a relationship at the first sign of another's imperfections, while others wait endlessly for that perfect relationship that never comes along."

Unlike me, the author of that article does still believe that God orchestrates a person's marital situation (he's a Presbyterian, if I recall), but he adds that it's "not helpful" to think about it too much when a single person is trying to get married. He's got that much right....

Once again it shows how "theology matters" to everyday practical concerns like getting married -- a pretty big deal in most people's lives, I would say.

[55. Paulina said the following at 3:21 PM on Mar 13:]

55

WHEN I READ THE COMMENT by Suzzanne:

"It seems like the majority of Christian singles are holding out for something," my new friend said. "Like the guys are waiting for a pastor's daughter/cheerleader that just popped out of Bible college, and girls are looking for...I don't know, a guy who just returned from a four-year missions trip to Peru."

I laugh out loud and then cried and then laughed some more because this analysis represented every belief i've had about christian relationships. I have been convinced (probably still is) that (hopefully soon) I would meet some missionary who loves God and a ready to commit to me. We would eventually marry, have beautiful children and travel together...the end. I don't know how those beliefs become a part of me but i guess it was a mix of hollywood romance movies and the christian dating teachings I go from my youth group. But i have to say i'm a bit more in tune with reality now. When i fully commited my life to God, my view on life and relationships changed. suddenly non-christian guys were off the list and christian guys gained a spot. But as i erased a spot for non-christian guys i also kept the other characteristics on the list. Those included charming, handsome, a bit on the bad side, caring, romantic etc. So in my mind, i wanted to find a christian guy, who loved God, was a missionary or somewhere along those lines and had all other characteristics like romantic, loving, a bit on the bad side, handsone etc. So that was my prayer for the past 2 year. SADLY i've been absolutely wrong. I was speaking to my youth pastor the other day and he made an interesting point. He said and i quote "you need to stop giving a list of charateristics that you want in a guy and pray that God will send you the right guy. The one that he thinks is best for you". Hmmm...that actually makes a lot more sense and definately makes my prayer quite short.
Sorry for rambling on but when you've seen things wrong your whole life and you finally see it how you should see it, you don't want to stop talking about it. So i think it's important that we as christians think of relationships as a way of pleasing God. Its not about what you really want, it's about whether your desires please God. And if it doesn't, you might be on the road for disater.

One more point i want to make or more like a revelation: My friend and i were talking the other day and she was saying how she turns guys away just by the way they approach her. I'll admit i've done this too. I believed at the time that christian guys were suppose to approach me in this holy/Godly way (ask me what that is: i dont even know?). But my point here it that guys are guys. christian or non-christian. There no holy way a christian guy can approach you. The only must in this case is approach with respect.

Anyways i've said enough...let me know what you think?

[56. a sassy sister said the following at 4:54 PM on Mar 13:]

56

OK, Paulina (comment #55)

there is a "holy" way to do it...it's just not so specific and minutely detailed that it has be done EXACTLY the same way by EVERYONE. Please do not use "boys will be boys" logic. While I understand you are trying to say that men and women are wired differently, as Christians, I believe that we cannot use that"well, they're men excuse." All of us must be held accountable for our actions, and saying things like that only encourages disrespect and manipulation between the sexes. You are right to expect a man to approach you with respect, however, I think it is equally important to understand that the respect that a man has for you should flow out of the love, obedience and reverence that he has for God and his creations(people included here).

Also, I believe the best thing you can do is take a look at that list again and check it against God's Word. When you look at this list that you have, you can see if your desires and priorities are based on satisfying your idea of true love and happiness, or based on standards of Biblical manhood. Lists aren't always bad if we know their true purposes for them. Did you create a list because that's what you believed you were supposed to do in waiting for the right guy?

[57. Marie said the following at 5:15 PM on Mar 13:]

57

This comment applies to Stefanie (46) and Anna (51).

I was also troubled by comment that alluded damaged and godly people cannot be in the same category. We're ALL damaged. Maybe some of us just aren't aware because it hasn't happed to us in a very outwardly noticable way... i.e. someone may not realize they've been "damaged" (read sinful) by being quick to judge others their whole lives vs. "damaged" by a rough family life growing up, mental illness, past sexual sin, etc.

I probably just feel strongly about this because I know it applies to me :) I've done a lot of changing (praise God, of course!) that has helped me to heal from my "damaged" past.

I'm in a serious relationship now with a great Christan guy who I suppose most would say has been much more godly than me his entire life. He has dated a couple other gals with cleaner pasts than mine. He would have been absolutely open to marrying them, but their personalities clashed or there where other reasons that made serious courtship a deal-breaker once he got to know them better. I am in NO WAY saying that I'm any better than any of my boyfriend's previous prospects. Our strenghts/weaknesses and personalities just happen to complement one another and he encourages me grow in my faith (as I do for him). I thank God constantly for sending this awsome guy into my life who forgives me just like Jesus did :)

In my opinion, I think if we work on the part of us that's "damaged" (we're all big 'ol sinners), with God's help we can heal. Maybe then will He send us just the person we've been looking for to complete us here on earth because we are finally ready for that serious relationship. And no... I am not engaged or married yet so I do not know if my bf is the one God has in mind for me. For now I can only have patience (man, that's a hard one!!), pray, and continue to grow in the Christian faith.

Hopefully I managed not to sterotype too much in this post! It would be great to hear any comments... whether you agree or disagree. Either we're holding out for the wrong reasons or possibly God is the one holding out on us and waiting for us damaged sinners to get our acts together!! ;)

Thanks for reading.....

[58. BDB said the following at 5:16 PM on Mar 13:]

58

Katie B (#29) wrote:

>>Its not because I set my sights to high, its because I have that non negotiable list,<<

Then bring that up at lunch. You may be surprised that someone will someday say, "leadership?!?" and go ask an older man how to do that.

If someone invites me to lunch, and I'm not sure about her spiritual status, I ALWAYS start talking about all the things I do at church. Sometimes, this makes women uncomfortable, because they don't have an active faith. They stop being interested at that point. But I've also discovered that some women ARE Christians, I just didn't know. (And I found one woman who was really into ancient Egyptian gods. That was an interesting lunch. Wasn't quite sure what to say. I think I tried to relate it to Stargate SG-1.)

Lunch is a great time to discuss these non-negotiable things in a relatively low-pressure environment, and one that usually doesn't involve alcohol clouding people's perceptions.

Andrew (tlw) (#32) wrote:

>>Loved the one about the flaming Mazda in the car park.<<

Yeah, well, it DID teach me that God can take something away and replace it with something better. I'm a lot less emotionally attached to cars now. I still name them. (Which was a little awkward when three years after I named my car "Jessica" one of my close friends named her daughter that. I figured I better not ask if she name her daughter after my car.)

Kelly (#33) wrote:

>>That's a sad consequence of our society. Too many times I've accepted a date and had it turn into an expectation of sex.<<

You mean the women who accepted had already decided to...no, no, no, that's just going to mess with my head...

For those worried about this, drive to lunch separately...

Suzanne (#47) wrote:

>>You guys are all so sweet wanting to know the "rest of the story." :) <<

Well, you know, we all go to church, and if we see a man and woman talking, we hound them relentlessly about the status of their "relationship" until they are intimidated into breaking up...

Holly (#52) wrote:

>>So, does this mean when you are no longer in the "pursual" stage, it's okay to ignore a wife's desires for something as small as a little note? <<

Well, if it's any consolation to you, a men's retreats men are constantly hammered to care for their wives by "Do what you did when you were dating!"

Unfortunately, when a single person hears that instruction for marriage, they might conclude, "Um, break up with her because she doesn't meet everything on my list? Well, if you really think that's best..."

If I were to combine every sermon I've heard on marriage, I could build quite a PowerPoint presentation on how, for men, marriage is nothing but work, work, work...

[59. Paulina said the following at 5:36 PM on Mar 13:]

59

to comment #56

To answer your question-"the list" I made was created year and years ago when i was not a christian and basically was deeply influence by the media and some poeple around me. I created it because i was convinced that i would meet a guy with all those characteristics and it was only a matter of time. You may have read me wrong: i was trying to say that when i was not a christian i had this hollywood type "list" of thigs i wanted in a guy and from the relationship. However, when i became a christian and fully commited my life to christ, my view of relationsips changed a bit...but yet i still carried that list with me except i wanted "this guy" to be a christian foremost but also meet the criteria on "the list"---so you see that kind of thinking is wrong i think. Mostly because "the list" consisted of superficial things like physical attractiveness and such. So now i think i should just ask God for the one who he believes is right for me...who ever he is..how ever he looks etc..but he most met only one criteria...which is love God.

Also, i agree with you on the issue that men should not be excuse and are accountable for their actions.

[60. BDB said the following at 5:55 PM on Mar 13:]

60

For the women who've commented that they're already dating guys with all four characteristcs and it's not enough, I have a two-part question:

1) How has he demonstrated sacrificial love?

2) Given how rare that is, did it not move you at all?

It seems like it would be difficult to observe this behavior in a "dating" relationship that's based on entertainment. For example, I know lots of people who like to go to Mexico on a cruise, or vacation, or just to get drunk. But on Sunday, I was talking with a woman who really wants to go to Mexico to visit an orphanage. She went on a missions trip to Cambodia last year and didn't get to go to the orphanage, and really wants to go. So I think she might actually be serious...

(And if you're wondering what I'm going to do about it...I have some missionaries I support in Mexico; at least one of them must know of an orphanage...I'm e-mailing them...)

[61. Adam T. said the following at 6:55 PM on Mar 13:]

61

Kristie (#50), you posted several quotes that you say are 'illogical', and then you don't explain why you think they're illogical; if you did, I think it would help stimulate the discussion a lot better. In particular, one of the quotes you gave was, in my mind, the single best paragraph in the whole article:

Once you’re married, it’s not about whom you want to go on vacation with; it’s about whom you want to run a household with. Marriage isn’t a passion-fest; it’s more like a partnership formed to run a very small, mundane, and often boring nonprofit business.

This is absolutely a lesson I've learned over the past year or so, and based on what I consistently read from young single people, I think it's a lesson a lot of us in our generation sorely need to learn. I had come over to this way of thinking even before I read the article in question, and I've drastically changed what I consider important in a potential wife.

As I've contemplated marriage over the past while, I've realized precisely what the paragraph says: that though when I was younger I may have dreamed of marrying the sexiest/hottest girl in town, in reality, that's not necessarily what's going to make me happy day in and day out for the rest of my life. What is going to make me content for the rest of my life is someone I can generally get along with; who is enjoyable to be with; who loves me for who I am; who complements me; who likes (or at is willing to do) things like cooking and childcare that are traditionally 'feminine' domains... in sum, someone who wants to be a partner with me in running a home and family.

(We've all got those 'must-have' lists, right? Well, not only has mine gotten a lot smaller, but the general theme of mine has shifted from 'must be attractive' to 'must be someone I can actually live with every day for the rest of my life'. That might sound cynical, but I don't mean it that way - I just mean it to be realistic.)

I've come to consider these things much more important than 'passion', and I truly think that as I grow older I'll become more content as a result. I bet the married people among us generally agree with the excerpt above.

[62. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 8:02 PM on Mar 13:]

62

I think we are expecting a spouse to give more than is reasonable. A good spouse is a great blessing, to be sure. Some people will be a better match for us than others. But no spouse can meet all our needs. It’s not possible. That is why we have friends, family, hobbies and so on. I wonder if this comes back to the elusive “chemistry” thing, that we expect to feel more about our date than we can realistically expect to. This too, can grow with time, provided the respect is there.

Annie, trying to be sensitive here, but your situation is one that probably shouldn’t be permitted to drag on indefinitely. If the situation was reversed and your b/f felt less emotional commitment for you then you did for him (as is commonly alleged by many women in their relationships), how would you feel?

If you do marry, you will be tempted by another. But that’s probably true of all of us at some point. Many singles talk about guarding their hearts but marrieds do this too, to avoid inappropriate emotional intimacy.

Holly, your friend is suffering from feeling unloved. Men are great at pursuing goals. Keeping the love fresh in our marriages is a challenge. It is a common issue that women speak of, but that doesn’t mean men can let their wives wither away. You also need to repent of your disillusionment before it hardens into an emotional shield you neither need nor benefit from.

I see this whole checklist thing as out of control, hindering and not helping our search for a spouse. I threw out my checklist at some point (I don’t remember when) and eventually abandoned hopes of getting married at all. It just seemed all too hard. But my spouse and I were introduced by a mutual friend who thought both of us were “unique” (damaged in similar ways, perhaps?) and might get along well. She was right. We did. It hasn’t been all wine and roses, but it’s been wonderful just the same.

And by the way: my spouse wouldn’t have passed my checklist either. But she knows she’s loved and is special, because I keep telling her so.

And BdB, I think you’re onto something with the work comment. Perhaps we overemphasise the work component of marriage? I don’t know. Sometimes I think I spend more time fixing the house than maintaining our relationship. If it gets too much, I guess we can always sell the house.

[63. Becky said the following at 8:24 PM on Mar 13:]

63

I *could* have been married almost a year ago, if I had "settled".

While working a summer job after my sophomore year of college, I met an enthusiastic Christian young man. He had all the right answers, met my family, had weekly lunches with my father, asked how he could pray for me, took me to his Bible study to meet his mentors and friends.
My parents are big fans of the "courtship" behavior model, so they pushed me to make a fast decision on whether I wanted to spend the rest of my life with this young man. Because I cared deeply for him, and I earnestly desired marriage, I decided that it was time.
Meanwhile,he was working to isolate me from my friends and family (at one point he told me that because I was spending the rest of my life with him, he was entitled to *all* my free time), pushed the boundaries of our physical relationship as far as I would let him,and discouraged me from pursuing my passions and interests (specifically a medical missions trip to Asia).
Six or seven months into the relationship I hated answering his calls and spending one on one time with him, but I felt that I had no other option but to pray and trust God to change him, since he was a "good Christian guy" who I had intended to marry.
Thankfully, the mother of a dear friend intervened, seeing that the relationship was harmful to me and told me that there were times promises needed to be reconsidered, even if they hurt one's parents.
I have had limited communication with him since the breakup- mainly consisting of me trying to retrieve items on loan and him responding with personal attacks.
For six months he looked like a great Christian guy.
I'm so glad I didn't settle.

[64. Ted Slater said the following at 11:01 PM on Mar 13:]

64

Becky -- I'm glad you didn't "settle" in this instance as well.

FWIW, "courtship" is *absolutely NOT* pre-engagement. It is not. There is no "commitment." No "promise."

It is a time to formally and intentionally consider the Lord's will regarding your relationship with a guy. That's all.

There should be no sexual impurity. There should be no expectation that you're destined to be married. No obligation to marry. None of that stuff.

Sounds like your "courtship" was merely dating with a "pre-engagement" kind of feel, and a smattering of sexual impurity muddying up the mix.

That's not "courtship," Becky.

I'm not condemning you. Please understand that. I'm showing you that true courtship is a freeing time, an opportunity to explore a relationship that results in no regret, whether you marry or not. I "courted" the woman I married, and have not a single regret. I think you'd be blessed by going the same route....

But back to your comment. I'm happy to see that you didn't "settle" with this guy. God's got better in store for you, Becky.

[65. BDB said the following at 11:21 PM on Mar 13:]

65

Becky (#63) wrote:

>>(at one point he told me that because I was spending the rest of my life with him, he was entitled to *all* my free time),<<

Red Flag! Red Flag! Waving Vigorously!

That's one of the signs of an abuser. No human being is "entitled" to all the free time of another human being. Marriage - after the vows - entitles someone to priority over parents, siblings, etc. But definitely not all their time.

And to consider the 4 points in the article, what you are describing is the opposite of sacrifical love.

[66. Leah said the following at 8:25 AM on Mar 14:]

66

Re: "It is better to feel alone is marriage than to actually be alone."

I can't believe anyone would say that. In Bill and Lynn Hybel's marriage book "Fit to be tied", Bill reiterates over and over- it is far better to be lonely and single than lonely and married. Because a single can change their situation by getting married. A married person cannot change their situation.

Ted- I hardly think Becky is labelling her courtship experience as a standard courtship. Her parents and the guy obviously messed it up big time for her, so I don't think she deserves any criticism at all.

Adam T- Amen, brother. Preach it! My fiance and I both have our "Wants" lists, but our most important wants/needs are those that make the other person a suitable person to live with for the rest of our lives. Things which will encourage and build each other up in the Lord; things which will help us run a household and family effectively; things which will help us get along the best we can.

BDB- I love your questions. I don't see how a woman could observe a guy showing sacrificial love and NOT be moved by it. It's the most melt-worthy thing ever. (Ok, I'm being all mushy and romantic here... of course there are other important things out there, but we're talking about courtship!! Haha).

You also said If I were to combine every sermon I've heard on marriage, I could build quite a PowerPoint presentation on how, for men, marriage is nothing but work, work, work...

Now, if I were to combine everyting I've ever heard on marriage, I'd say that for women, marriage is nothing but work, work, work... That's what marriage is, for everyone! Work! But a work which is SO worthwhile.

Anna- if you felt judged by Brook's comment, you shoudl hardly be making comments like "good Christian girls" with perma-smiles (have) no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness.

Ok, so I suppose it's wrong for "good Christian girls" to make judgments about you and other "damaged" girls, but it's ok for you to judge and say that obviously all "good Christian girls" have no idea what it's like to live in a never-ending pursuit of wholeness? Get a grip. Seriously. You said it yourself, the distinction between "godly" and "damaged" is dangerous. I can almost guarantee the "good Christian girls" you picture in your mind are damaged and feel unwhole. So if you want people to stop judging "damaged" women as "ungodly", you can stop judging "good Christian girls" as perfect, unhurt, and without understanding of what it's like to be hurt and unwhole.

Esther416- If you feel nothing for him AND your father and friends are advising against it, that is TOTALLY fine to reject him. That's not "holding out" for some super-spiritual reason. It's common sense to listen to your father and friends when it comes to such things! :)

Kristie- while, for the most part, I agree with your issues with Gottlieb's article, I think you're wrong to criticise her for not holding out for "the one God has for you". God does not have ONE for you. There are many you can choose from. God gave 3 guidelines when it comes to choosing a spouse-
1. member of the opposite sex
2. a christian
3. a human
And really, Gottlieb isn't too wrong when she says we don't HAVE to marry for love. Isaac and Rebekah didn't. Marriages of convenience and arranged marriages are rife all over the world and throughout history. Now, don't get me wrong- I'm not diminishing the role of love. Isaac and Rebekah clearly grew to love each other very much. I'm simply saying that while it may seem counter-cultural to slightly lower the importance of love in the beginning of a marriage, it's not biblically wrong. I still wouldn't do it, but it's not WRONG.

[67. Katie B said the following at 9:21 AM on Mar 14:]

67

BDB, thanks for your response, I apprieciate a males perspective on that situation. I admit I am a little cynical, I have several times been out to lunch or coffee with a guy once, after which he presumes to tell me that God told him that I am supposed to marry him (or he more offensive version, I was created to be his wife) and if I should refuse, or even ask for time to reconcider, prayer groups form about how I am walking away from Gods call on my life. once this happened with no date at all. If a man tries to coerce me, rather than lead me, in the relationship, that is a quick ticket out, no matter what else he has got going for him.
Does this happen to anyone else?

[68. Alex B. said the following at 1:44 PM on Mar 14:]

68

I'm really disturbed by the number of times that I've read in this and other comment threads that women are being pushed by supposedly Christian men to go past their own sexual boundaries. This is not only a huge red flag as to their real intentions and character, but also to the seriousness of their faith.

Is anything done to censure or hold these men accountable within churches when it's discovered they are acting this way? If not, something should be... if nothing else, I'd think women should be spreading the word amongst themselves and simply refusing to date such men until they have shaped up.

[69. Becky said the following at 2:22 PM on Mar 14:]

69

Ted (#64)- no offense taken. It was less an issue of labels than of expectations. My parents and the fellow involved *expected* the relationship to become very serious very quickly, and this was the heart of the problems.

my *real* point was that even though this guy was actively involved in church, in a mentoring relationship with an older married couple, had gone on missions trips, made an effort to get to know my family, he *still* would have made a horrible husband. It's important to enter relationships with wisdom and discernment, and I think sometimes (like in my case) when someone deeply desires to be married soon, some of that discernment evaporates.

Not every "Christian guy who takes initiative" is worth getting involved with. While "giving people a chance" is an important part of life, I would recommend keeping the guards up high and eyes *wide* open with people you don't know well.

As to the future....I don't know that I'll ever be married. Right now, I'm choosing to focus on my relationship with my Heavenly Father and the dreams He's placed within my grasp at the moment, and to trust that in time, He'll make my next steps clear.

[70. sc said the following at 2:59 PM on Mar 14:]

70

in response to the one person/many choices debate... back when i was in therapy, my therapist asked me if believed there's more than one 'husband option out there for me. i thought for a second, and then replied, well, i might, if i'd ever met anyone i could see myself married to. but honestly, i never have, so i'm hoping for just one.

still hoping....

[71. BDB said the following at 3:40 PM on Mar 14:]

71

Katie B (#67) wrote:

>>I have several times been out to lunch or coffee with a guy once, after which he presumes to tell me that God told him that I am supposed to marry him (or he more offensive version, I was created to be his wife)<<

SEVERAL times? That's odd. God is not the author of confusion.

Even if I believed that to be true about someone, I wouldn't say it at the first lunch. What I would do is lay out what I believed God had called me to do, and identify the various guidance steps along the way that caused me to change direction or make a decision.

In theory, if someone was on the same road, this would resonate with her. God should be telling her the same thing He is telling me.

On the other hand, if she told me I was stupid, in "guidance bondage" or something...well, that would indicate I was headed down the wrong path.

I did ask an intercessor to pray for someone once. One month later she was attending church again...because her ex-boyfriend made it a condition of them getting back together. I guess that counts as guidance...at least it was quick!

[72. Katie B said the following at 6:14 PM on Mar 14:]

72

BDB, believe me I know God is not the author of confusion, we can come up with that plenty on our own.
I like your more reasonable view, it shows patience and trust in Gods providence and the woman herself.
One of the guys who tried to pursue me for the better part of a year told me that he believed in "my calling to be his wife" in part because he believed that GOd had given him his feelings for me, and that it must be right because he had prayed that God take them away but He didnt.
I go to a small christian college, where I studypastoral ministry, I am currently the only single woman in the department surrounded by guys that are pretty trigger happy when it comes to marriage. Maybe its the demographic. I figure its the desire to marry, that any woman that they 'connect' with who meets their criteria, must be the one, but it has every time been guys who dont have the maturaty or initiative to take a real risk in the relationship. By pulling the God card, they are not being rejected, God is, it requires no wooing, no work at all on their part. I doesnt even require them to listen to me or concider my feelings.
It enough to make being a nun look like fun sometimes. ;)
But in all seriousness. This was meant to illustrate how the way a man pursues a woman speaks volumes about him and what kind of leader he would be.

[73. BDB said the following at 8:36 PM on Mar 14:]

73

Katie B (#72) wrote:

>>I am currently the only single woman in the department surrounded by guys that are pretty trigger happy when it comes to marriage.<<

Ah...so the lesson is that women who feel there are no single men in church should take some seminary classes...

I once had the bright idea to do this to meet "like-minded" people. My error was in forgetting that most people don't take classes at a graduate level in seminary - they go to Bible college...oops. My fellow students were all married guys who were already pastoring small churches. Oh well. I learned a lot from them.

But you are right about how people "react" to boundaries. In an aforementioned lunch incident I wrote about somewhere else (that was scuttled by a sister over a rather restrictive definition of boundaries), the first thing that popped into my head was actually work experience. When I set a boundary at work, some people fall into line without questioning it, others ignore it, some people try to bully me (not a good choice).

But SOME people stop, tell me I put the boundary in the wrong place, and try to persuade me to move it. They didn't cross the line until I moved it. Over time, it was this last group that by far was the best to work with. I've stopped caring whether people agree with me. Now I pay attention to how they conduct themselves when they disagree.

[74. Tiffany said the following at 8:55 PM on Mar 14:]

74

Annie (#43), I am SO glad you posted the questions you are asking yourself! I suspect you asked many of them rhetorically, but I would love feedback from others on your post, as I have been struggling through many of your same questions lately. If nothing else, I am relieved to know I am not alone in my line of questioning!

[75. Susan said the following at 10:57 PM on Mar 14:]

75

Obewan (#7)- I'm with you on how frustrating it can be when the "fantasy" person appears in reality but it still doesn't work out. I think I keep thinking that because my fantasy has appeared before it will show up again when really the right guy might be under my nose and I need to give him a chance to see if he ever would lead with me. (one of my concerns about him is leadership but either he will lead or he won't lead).
Candice I'm doing the talk about a shared book (in this case C.S. Lewis, "The Great Divorce") thing in attempt to grow our friendship so we will see if it works. Thanks for the tip.
I'm a big fan of Jane Austen stories that were recommended reading on the line but I think even in this great literature and story lines it is important for women to be careful not to overfantasize them either. In my opinion Mr. Knightly and Mr. Darcy are to good to be true.
Geoff #53-I agree marriage is a choice, but women do love the romatic story lines with the prince on a white horse and as long as they realize they do live in reality I think it's ok dream a little (as long as people remember they are stories).
Blessings!

[76. Eliza said the following at 12:06 PM on Mar 15:]

76

I read Lori Gottlieb's article a few weeks ago, and was kind of surprised at her "better to be lonely in marriage" comment, but it fit in the context of her point. I think her point was that all her married friends say their lonely, but if they really hated their marriage, they'd get divorced. (This article was written from a secular perspective, where divorce is an option.) She said that if/when she ever offered to take their husbands off their hands for them, she highly doubts they'd take her up on the offer. This leaves her only to conclude that as much as they complain about their situation, it is preferable to her own.

I don't think that is at all the case across the board, but it makes her comment more reasonable in context.

[77. Sandrine said the following at 8:25 PM on Mar 16:]

77

Katie B. and BDB: I found this discussion about the "God card" really interesting, because it happened to me as well! Some guys did try to use that to push me into something I wasn't sure I wanted to go... and it made me run away. I think that it does really happen sometimes that God gives someone immediate and clear guidance about a marriage partner, but then this person should not push this at the other to force a decision. It happened with my fiancé: the first time we met, he was sure that I was the answer to his prayers about a wife, but he did not say anything and took steps to get slowly acquainted with me (by going to same young adult groups, Bible studies, etc.). It was only about six months later that I started thinking that he may be interested in me, and still a few months afterwards that something really started between us, after much prayers on both sides. It then became rapidly clear to me that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, and when he did ask the question, my answer was ready. But it was only AFTER we were engaged that he told me how God showed him I was the one and how he did act on it... and I was really happy he did not tell me before, because it gave me the chance to get to know him, without the pressure and expectations that would have come otherwise.

[78. Leah said the following at 9:01 PM on Mar 16:]

78

Annie,

I think I sort of sympathise with you.

You ask I know that it probably sounds like a no- brainer to most, but i'm not so convinced.
Should i call it off? Are we better off remaining friends? Am i robbing him the love of a woman who really does love him just the way he is?

Is it unfair to 'settle' for him when i know that the depth of my feeling is nowhere near his?

Now if i had to hazard a guess, I'd say things between you and your bf sound much rockier than things between my fiance and I. Because I honestly do love him to bits and don't think I could love anyone more than I love him. But I understand your feelings that he does not 'meet' your intellectual level. While my fiance more than meets me on an intellectual level, it's the theological level which is my issue. Dont get me wrong; we agree on all the important theological ones, and 95% of peripheral ones. But I also love being able to hear more than what I already know from a guy, and I can't hear that from him. Many of the peripheral things we agree on, he only learnt in the last few years (especially since we've been going out). So while it's not like I know more than him, it's like we're totally even- and I enjoy hearing more than what I know.

You then ask
Would that open a door for temptation later on if i meet someone who 'meets' me on the level(s) that he doesnt?

Now the thing for me is that I already know the one who 'meets' me on the theological level I'm talking about. He and I share the same theological beliefs, but in a discussion, he can tell me things I've overlooked, forgotten about, or simply not known. I really enjoy that. And I have asked myself before (much like you have), am I opening myself to temptation by marrying my fiance but still hanging out with this other guy?

The answer I've come to: No. Why? Because there are SO MANY other things that my fiance does better than this other guy. SO many. And I just can't fathom ever preferring the 1 good thing this other guy can give me over the multitude of good things my fiance gives me. I also know their personalities and know that my fiance's is a personality I am much more likely to be able to cope with in a marriage situation than this other guy! :)

I realise our situations are a bit different but I hope this helped.

[79. Becky said the following at 11:52 AM on Mar 17:]

79

Hmmm ... this concept of spiritualizing "holding out" is interesting, Suzanne.

Something I think I've definitely been guilty of. I'm trying to learn to be open to whomever God has chosen for me.

[80. BDB said the following at 6:21 PM on Mar 17:]

80

Sandrine (#77) wrote:

>>and I was really happy he did not tell me before, because it gave me the chance to get to know him, without the pressure and expectations that would have come otherwise.<<

I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance...

[81. Katie B said the following at 8:17 PM on Mar 17:]

81

Sandrine: that is a wonderful story, the patience and maturity he showed is great, thank you for sharing.

BDB: I am all for women taking seminary classes, though I would discourage them taking it to find spouses, it might bring down the level of respect that the few women serious about the education and engaging as a peer get. I honestly find I get the most respect and consideration when I am the only women in the room.
Re: boundaries, I agree, one of the things that a man can most impress me with is by respecting my boundaries, calling me out if I am just defensive or scared, but showing a regard for the descisions that I have made for myself. That shows that a man cares for me more than what he wants from me. These things are not difficult to pick up on in a conversation or two, I have found it helpful to figure out which guys ignore or are oblivious to my boundries, and not to encourage them further. Its encouraging to know that some men think with their brains, use discernment and respect, like Sandrine's fiance. I have appreciated your input.

[82. Sandrine said the following at 9:23 PM on Mar 17:]

82

BDB (#80) wrote:
"I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance..."

Yes, I think it is better to wait a bit - the other person needs to know you enough to be sure that you are serious and really mean it. That said, I'm not saying you have to wait until after you are engaged to have this kind of conversation...

[83. Rachael said the following at 11:35 PM on Mar 17:]

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BDB (80),

Good idea. Even if you felt God showed you someone was the right one, I definitely wouldn't tell her before she agreed to the courtship or whatever, unless maybe it was very soft and subtle or a mutual thing. But you can enjoy telling her after she says yes :)

[84. Jo said the following at 12:46 AM on Mar 18:]

84

BDB said "I guess now I'll NEVER spell out that part in advance..."

There's a big difference between stating interest and saying "I believe God is telling me you're the woman I'm going to marry". The first is great, the second is likely to scare most women away.

On that topic, a friend of mine was once approached by a lady he didn't know at a church meeting who said she felt God was calling them to be together. His response was "Well this is my wife standing next to me so I think you might be mistaken..."

[85. BDB said the following at 2:56 PM on Mar 18:]

85

Jo (#84) wrote:

>>The first is great, the second is likely to scare most women away.<<

Yes, even people who believe in God's guidance can get freaked out.

I remember when I was buying my house, and I was pretty sure that this was the one God had led me to. I never told anyone that. But my real estate agent, who actually was a Charismatic Christian, periodically would say,

"Why are you so calm about this?"

I'd just say something like, "Oh, I prayed about this part, I have peace about it, I think it will be fine."

And it was...

[86. esther416 said the following at 7:47 PM on Mar 18:]

86

Additions to my previous post:

I wanted to (to BDB and others) say that the guy i was mentioning in my post (esther416 #24) never did ask me to lunch or make any attempt to pursue me in order to get to know me as just a friend. He, at least it seemed to me, just skipped the get to know you and growing friendship part and went straight to courtship.

[87. Esther said the following at 1:46 PM on Mar 19:]

87

Honestly I think when you hear people talking about waiting and the perceived shortage of good christian spouses before jumping to the conclusion that they are holding out for a unrealistic ideal you have to ask questions. Ask what "In your mind is lacking in the people around you?" The answers may surprise you. Some may have the unrealistic ideal mate in mind, others may have serious complaints about the people around them but do not know what to do to change the situation. Encourage them to pray for the women or men around them.

I must say that my complaint is that there is a lack in my circle of guys who defend the honor of women and esteem their role and place in the church and family. In my bible study there are two types of guys. First, there are the guys who give off this men are supiror to women attitude by make rude, unloving and demeaning comments about women. It seems they hold to "all a woman is good for is to cook, clean and bear children and thus belongs pregnant, bare foot and in the kitchen". The second type are those guys who do not give off that attitude but do not defend women either. Men need to be defending women not demeaning them ( even if it is joking and non sexual). We get enough garbage about ourselves in the world, we do not need it in the church.

[88. Mrs. Bethany Hudson said the following at 9:49 PM on Apr 1:]

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I just found your site from Jess' at Making Home. Having recently graduated from college (nearly 2 years ago, now--wow time flies), I can definitely attest to this attitude. I remember how shocked even our InterVarsity staff (most of whom married in their late twenties...or were still waiting) were that my husband and I were getting married right out of college. I was 21 and he was 22 by one month. They were even more shocked that we were pregnant (yes, we wanted to be) 10 months later. I think that the fear of "settling" is quite pervasive in Christian circles, and frankly, I find this fear to be unbiblical.
Thanks for the thought-provoking post.
~Bethany

[89. M said the following at 7:34 AM on Apr 2:]

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Alex B. #68,
My last boyfriend had a checkered past but had been saved for a few years when we went out. He pushed the boundaries with me, and then I found out he slept with a (non-Christian) girl a few months before we started dating. Church leadership found out about everything and discussed restricting him from certain activities, but it didn't happen. It's hard to see him at church events acting like nothing's happened.