Encouragement for the DTR-Weary
by
Suzanne Hadley
on Mar 31, 2008 at 8:21 AM
A few days ago, Ted shared a DTR success story. The post generated some interesting comments. Some of them echoed similar good experiences; others reflected discouragement. Having my share of experience with the DTR, I've written a couple of articles on the subject. From "Confessions of a Relationship Consultant:"
When I attended Bible college, "defining the relationship" (DTR) was a regular part of the vocabulary. As soon as two members of the opposite sex had been seen hanging out together, oh, say two or three times, the buzz would begin. A girl in the dorm would giddily declare, "Chad and I are having our DTR tonight." By the flurry of excitement that followed, you would have thought they were getting engaged — and often six months later they would.
A DTR became an expectation for men — the inevitable end to serial "hanging out" with one girl.
There was a time when I was tired of hearing about it, but I have observed that a well-timed DTR -- no matter what the outcome -- is a good thing. It either gives a relationship direction or frees up both parties to pursue other options. Still, when a clarity conversation doesn't go the way you planned, the fallout can be frustrating. For every happy ending there seems to be a, well, less-than-happy one.
I addressed this in, "You're a Great Guy, but...."
I talked about the aftermath of an "unsuccessful" DTR from a guy's perspective.
Occasionally it's clear that the desired relationship won't happen — ever. Maybe the girl closes the door directly by expressing interest in another person or denying a connection. More often, the talk leaves the guy confused. Her words may seem to be expressing attraction while at the same time professing a lack of it. A man finds himself at a loss to know whether he should give up or try harder.
The confusion that sometimes accompanies the DTR process is not reason enough to quit trying. When it comes to seeking the clarity that precedes godly marriages, let hope spring eternal. From "Relationship Consultant:"
Like many single adults, I have long since grown weary of Christian relationship lingo. That doesn't change the wisdom of such actions. My experiences as a DTR consultant have taught me that the first relationship conversation can be more than an exercise — it can be the beginning of true love.
1. Ro had the following to say on Mar 31 at 8:44 AM:
It can get a bit discouraging when all your DTR's end the same way. I guess its frustrating when all your attempts at pursuing marriage do not work out. Its a little bit discouraging, and makes you want to take a bit of a break from trying / being proactive (as mentioned in one of your earlier posts).
2. J.T. had the following to say on Mar 31 at 9:03 AM:
Dude, I've had so many frustrations, that I have given up on any relationships with girls; even the "just friends" ones. I can hear your objections already, but the way my mind works is this: There are over 6 billion people on this planet. There are over 3 billions women, so if you are "the one" people, the odds of any girl being God's will for my wife is approximately 3,000,000,000 to 1.
3. a sassy sister had the following to say on Mar 31 at 9:41 AM:
J.T.:
My brother, you are not alone in this. If I had a nickel for every time a guy said, "you're a great woman, blah, blah, I think I'd be loaded. And as far as "the one" is concerned, we fail to forget that whomever we choose becomes "the one" for us. If you remember the story of Adam and Eve, you will note that God PRESENTED Eve to Adam; God did not tell Adam that Eve was his helpmeet. Adam still made the choice and DECLARED that she was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.
The only comfort that I have in the scenarios that I face is that I have a choice about MY ATTITUDE, THINKING, and DECISIONS regarding this. The one thing that really helps is that I have to have an eternal perspective REGARDING ALL my relationships. Marriage is for while you're on earth. That being said, your relationships with your brothers and sisters in Christ may be different and have different boundaries because of their marital status, but be grateful that you can call them your brother and sister in Christ. Be thankful that such a relationship EXISTS.
I constantly remind myself that I must walk in God's love REGARDLESS of what the other person does. Is it painful? Yes. Is it hard? Yes. But by the grace of God and through his abundant love for me, I know that I can love.
and btw, CLARITY IN COMMUNICATION is IMPORTANT ACROSS THE BOARD! Be thankful that you know at least where you stand with a person instead of being tortured by your own internal monologues and imaginings.
4. Adam T. had the following to say on Mar 31 at 10:30 AM:
A girl in the dorm would giddily declare, "Chad and I are having our DTR tonight."
That bit's retchworthy (like women who refer to their husbands as 'dh', but that's a different barf.)
Anyway, I have never heard of this 'DTR' concept outside of Boundless. What is it? What's the point of it? What do you do? Why's it necessary?
5. Christina (in green) had the following to say on Mar 31 at 12:00 PM:
Adam, outside of Boundless, the DTR looks like this:
girl: "Umm...we need to talk"
guy: Uh oh..not this..anything but this "Ummm...sure..."
girl: "Well, we've been dating for such and such a time and we seem to be getting along rather well..."
guy: "Uhhh...yeah?"
girl: "Well, where is this going?"
guy: I knew I wasn't going to like this "uhhhh..."
So...That is the exercise of Defining the Relationship...Boundless likes to make a point that there is a point in time where that DTR is necessary - when emotional and time committment outgrows clarity - and that the DTR requires some action going with it.
Considering you are rather down to earth, practical, and understand male leadership and were well mentored, I don't think this was ever something you really thought much about cuz...well...you didn't really need to?
6. Andrew had the following to say on Mar 31 at 12:56 PM:
Adam T. said:
A girl in the dorm would giddily declare, "Chad and I are having our DTR tonight."
That bit's retchworthy (like women who refer to their husbands as 'dh', but that's a different barf.)
//End Adam T.
Designated hitter?
7. Rachel had the following to say on Mar 31 at 3:37 PM:
My question is this:
What to do when all of your DTRs end badly? As an Eve waiting to be presented to her Adam, it would seem that I am helpless in the situation... That is, unless I initiate the DTR and have it explode in my face like romantic napalm.
8. myca had the following to say on Mar 31 at 4:43 PM:
andrew -
dh = dear husband
9. Leah had the following to say on Mar 31 at 8:14 PM:
Wow, I totally don't get the hype over the DTR.
For me and everyone I know about, while there have usually been DTRs, it hasn't been a big issue- just a "hey, we seem to be getting along really well, do you want to go out with me and we'll see how things go (with a view to marriage)".
While you always have to have little DTRs along the way in a relationship, I don't understand "A girl in the dorm would giddily declare, "Chad and I are having our DTR tonight."" Are her and Chad "going out"? Or is he just a guy she likes and seems to like her back? If they're already going out, a big hyped-up DTR should be unnecessary in my books. They should already know the direction they're headed, and their general conversation should keep them up to date. If they're not going out, I don't see why there's a predetermined time to discuss the relationship... he should jsut ask her out.
10. Chris Krycho had the following to say on Mar 31 at 9:16 PM:
Leah - a lot of it probably depends on the "culture" in which it's happening. I don't find the "DTR" either intimidating or that big of a deal, as there is, in my relationship, a sort of continual defining - probably every week or so, we get there simply by dint of talking to each other about things. But even in the circles I run in, I sometimes see it as being a much bigger deal. When guys are proactive, it's really not an issue. When they aren't, it is.
11. Justin T. had the following to say on Apr 1 at 1:29 AM:
#9: I agree. In my social/church circles, nobody refers to "The Talk" as a DTR. Guy asks girl out (with intent of determining suitability for marriage), and they work it out from there.
I am rather confused by that "Chad and I are having our DTR tonight" sentiment as well. A pre-relationship DTR seems to entirely defeat the purpose. What could they possibly have to discuss?
I have, however, experienced what I like to call a "stealth DTR" in the past. This girl and I had been friends during high school and I asked her out during out first few months of college, which she turned down, stating that she was not ready to date yet, and I remained single after that. We were having one of our rare conversations a few months later, and part of it went something like this.
Girl (in passing, during a relatively innocuous conversation): I think I'm ready for a relationship.
Me: Did you have somebody specific in mind, or are you just ready in general?
Girl (shrugging): Just ready in general.
The conversation kind of stalled at that point, and we parted. A few weeks later, about when I had finally figured out what she was doing, she started dating somebody else.
Maybe I was being dense; I plead inexperience, at that point in my life. Regardless, that "stealth DTR" would have been a whole lot simpler if she had just been up front about it, instead of making me second guess her motives.
12. niki had the following to say on Apr 1 at 6:58 AM:
Leah,
I get what you're saying. When I read that part, I rolled my eyes and thought, "oh Christian college." The place where immaturity meets Christian-sub-culture. There is nothing wrong with being excited about a growing relationship. When we allow our expectations to get out of control (which, as young women, is very easy to do), and try to manipulate it into "God's will" using Christianese, we nullify the purpose of a DTR in the first place - to promote clarity, wisdom and self-control in an otherwise emotionally-controlled situation. No wonder it can be exhausting. But it doesn't have to be. The DTR timing and structure is different for everyone. The important thing is that it happens.
13. a sassy sister had the following to say on Apr 1 at 8:54 AM:
I think the problem is that in church circles we erroneously attribute transparency in communication with relationships to inappropriate emotional intimacy. Also, when the breakdown of expecting the male to be the "initiator" is not properly communicated and understood in regards to the dating and expression of interest in the relationship, then you have lots of problems with this.
The one thing I think that should be communicated by one party or the other(and imo, should be a priority)is that there must remain a steadfast decision to deal walk in love despite the outcome. Even if that person isn't interested in you, they're still your brother or sister in Christ. The commandment to love one another wasn't contingent on whether or not the DTR goes well. I fully admit that this requires a total dependence on God's love to do this, but it must be said. A hallmark of real maturity is the ability to take responsibility for our own actions and to DEAL WITH OUR OWN FEELINGS with integrity and to allow God purify our hearts throughout the process.
Lastly, I also believe that we should really examine our thinking, attitudes, and lessons we've learned growing up in regards to how to relate to the opposite sex. Sometimes there are deeply held thoughts, beliefs,and sometimes wounds that really sabotaging our opportunities for healthy relationships(no matter what type they are).
14. Laura Grace had the following to say on Apr 1 at 11:47 AM:
Haha... Niki (12) -- "the place where immaturity meets Christian sub-culture."
I think the reason so many folks in my circle have come to rely on "the DTR" is because we start out male-female relationships in such a jacked-up way! No intentionality, no maturity, just hanging out and hormones, followed by an unnecessarily awkward conversation about the "direction" of a relationship. Hurg.
Recently two of my friends actually did things right -- they knew each other from a group at church, he was intrigued by her. After a few weeks of seeing her and chatting with her at church, he got her phone number. He called her and asked her to go out with him some night. She said sure. He made plans. They went out. He called again a few days later and asked her out again. Rinse and repeat. Simple, right?
They've been happily seeing each other -- less than ten dates -- and there's been absolutely no need for a "DTR." They're not "boyfriend and girlfriend," they're just getting to know each other. Now, if they're still doing this in 6 or 8 months, they might (MIGHT) need to have a little chat, but come on!
People just over-think things.
15. Marie had the following to say on Apr 1 at 12:07 PM:
I realize this question might be a little irrelevant, but I really want to ask it and get an opinion. Coming from a woman at a Christian college who has never experienced a DTR, although it may have been necessary at times, I have observed something...
It seems, among the women at my school, there are two basic types: those who spend much more time in in relationships than being single, and those who, like me, seem to have a different approach, whether it be passive or active, of being single much of the time and being in relationships far less often. I realize not every woman falls into these two categories, but I've often pondered why some people I know hop from relationship to relationship while I sit and wait for a man to even express interest in me.
Any ideas?
16. CathyS had the following to say on Apr 1 at 12:33 PM:
This is a bit off-topic, but...
To a sassy sister:
I have noticed that you many times mention that an individual needs to be healthy and whole before going into marriage. So I wanted to ask your perspective.... (anyone else can feel free to chime in as well ;) )
What kind of wounds do you see sabotaging healthy relationships?
I am curious as I have been told that I am wounded and therefore need to heal before being in a relationship. Yes, there have been a number of interesting circumstances in my life, that have the potential to leave a lasting impact and impression.
But how does one "heal" from life circumstances? I believe in God and in His Word when He says "ALL things work together for the good of those who love him, to those who are called according to his purpose." I know that I can not change the past, but that I must accept it, forgive others, and move forward.
Do you have any insight on what kind of healing needs to be done from previous wounds in order to be ready for marriage?
17. Andrew had the following to say on Apr 1 at 1:33 PM:
//a sassy sister said:
Lastly, I also believe that we should really examine our thinking, attitudes, and lessons we've learned growing up in regards to how to relate to the opposite sex. Sometimes there are deeply held thoughts, beliefs,and sometimes wounds that really sabotaging our opportunities for healthy relationships(no matter what type they are).
//end a sassy sister
sassy sister,
This is interesting. What kinds of things did you have in mind when you wrote this?
18. a sassy sister had the following to say on Apr 1 at 1:54 PM:
to cathy:
I think previous wounds that need to be healed in order to be ready for marriage would have to include really examining your opinions and thoughts about relationships, marriage, and men. For example, you have people that will subconsciously sabotage relationships because they believe that guys will abandon them, treat them badly, hurt them, reject them, etc. Sometimes the sabotaging is because they really are wallowing in self-loathing. Sometimes it's because they took their negative experiences and internalized them so much that every other person was painted with the same brush.
When you heal from a wound, you not only forgive the other person, but you also take responsibility for your choices and your ability to manage your emotions based on what God's Word says, and not simply your own feelings.
19. a sassy sister had the following to say on Apr 1 at 2:33 PM:
andrew:
I actually had in mind my observations in male/female interactions, in addition to my own experiences in relationships with guys. But I've noticed that miscommunication is also intensified when both parties are reading their conversation and interactions based on what they believe to be true about the other person.
20. IMO had the following to say on Apr 1 at 2:48 PM:
I'd like to add to what you are saying, sassy sister. There are also some wounds that can be healed [through Christ] by having healthy relationships.
21. Rachael had the following to say on Apr 1 at 3:49 PM:
CathyS (16),
About 'healing'...I think it could come as you seek God through prayer, Scripture, and through applying Scripture to your life. We should all continuously seek to be 'healed' as we are all 'broken' and have been since "the fall". Broken people marry broken people. No one's perfect. No one's exempt from suffering.
I recommend seeking advice from someone who has a solid faith and who has a firm grasp of Scripture and who understands what your wounds are. Perhaps that person could point you to Scriptures that could help you or provide good accountability (for emotions and/or actions) if that's what is needed.
People (including myself in my many Boundless comments) always spout off various opinions. If people's opinions that are made are not 100% clearly backed by Scripture, it's okay to take them with a grain of salt. As we know in our heads but don't always practice, it's important to always look back at what Scripture actually says - not contemporary psychology, not contemporary opinions, etc.
So I guess in short, hold fast to Scripture and seek advice from someone who has a deep faith and understanding of Scripture.
May we seek God and grow in Him through His power! Peace be with you.
22. BDB had the following to say on Apr 1 at 4:12 PM:
Rachel (#7) wrote:
>>romantic napalm.<<
Niki (#12) wrote:
>>The place where immaturity meets Christian-sub-culture.<<
Ah - Spring is in the air!
I believe the proper acronymn is LOL.
23. BDB had the following to say on Apr 1 at 4:29 PM:
Marie (#15) wrote:
>>but I've often pondered why some people I know hop from relationship to relationship while I sit and wait for a man to even express interest in me. Any ideas?<<
Watch and see if the women are taking initiative. Are they going after these guys, and then the guys eventually break up with them when it gets too serious? So they pick someone else to go after?
I've seen women do this. They start with fun and then try to stealthily rachet up the commitment. I know one woman who would only talk about her boyfriend when he did something that sounded like "commitment," such as sending a Christmas gift. There was one period where she didn't talk about him for four months - I thought they had stopped dating. Then I guess he did something again. I could see that she was doing a ton of work - planning vacations and paying for them, etc. As far as I could tell, he didn't need to do anything but enjoy the ride.
24. Tara had the following to say on Apr 1 at 5:27 PM:
I think what confuses me most about DTRs is the confusion that surrounds them. If you can't talk about the fact you're dating with your special someone are you even dating? When you start "getting to know" the other person why can't it be wide out in the open that you're doing so to see if the two of you are compatible for marriage? There's no long-term commitment in such a statment and you allow the other person to know exactly where they stand with you--calming any fears of their attraction possibly being one-sided and it also tempers excitable expectations. While I believe that overthinking DTRs to the point of making detailed outlines and terminology is completely unneccessary there is something to be said about talking and agreeing upon the status of your relationship.
I like what Chris said in Comment #10 -- that a relationship has continual defining. As individuals we're constantly growing and changing and since relationships are made up of people it's only natural that a relationship would be in constant flux as well. And if you believe dating is for the pursuit of marriage it's important to talk together if that's still the track you're on.
I guess my philosophy has always been if you want the fun and emotional intimacy of a girl/boyfriend then you better be willing to make the commitment of one as well. There's always the time and space for undefined, no-pressure dates but eventually you have to call it for what it is. I don't know. It just seems cruel to yourself and to the other person to leave a relationship in limbo. I just can't fathom it.
25. Rachael had the following to say on Apr 1 at 5:38 PM:
Marie,
Interesting question. I didn't go to a Christian college, but I wonder if one of the reasons some may be due to flirtaciousness or/and a bold friendliness with guys? Another reason might be the approach (date to marry or date for fun?) and hanging around others who have similar views.
Of course looks and character and sparks often play into things, but there are definitely good gals out there that don't get pursued or noticed much. I can think of 3 single close friends off the top of my head...and I think all 3 are more conservative/reserved when it comes to guy/girl issues. Two of them have very busy days at work or doing research, and one of them is incredibly involved w/ her church but not other social circles...so these might be factors as well. And then there's me :) -- in my case, I believe ultimately God is sovereign so even if I had done things completely right I could still be single, but from a human perspective, being in a several year relationship in my early 20s that didn't result in marriage (and my knowledge that it would not do so UNLESS blah blah blah) certainly didn't allow for availability even if someone was interested (but it's probably good there was no one else during this time anyway since I feel I've grown more in my faith and feel that now I have a better sense of what general [though somewhat flexible] type of theological mind I'd like in a husband).
It is nice to know that all types marry (listen to the podcast for examples...), not only the Brad Pitts, not only the flirtacious, not only the 24/7 bolds...
All types marry! Yay :) There's hope.
26. Leah had the following to say on Apr 1 at 10:54 PM:
Laura Grace- wow, if a guy repeatedly asked me out on one-on-one dates but still claimed we weren't bf/gf, I'd have some pretty big issues with it. That's the situation where I would demand a DTR and say "No, if you want to go out with me, you tell me where it's going, otherwise I'm not wasting my time". If he clearly says upfront "I am doing this just to get to know you before deciding if we should date", then yes that would be ok. I certainly wouldn't want it going any further than a few dates though. He can get to know me in large group situations. I mean, seriously. If you're going on dates, then by definition, you're dating. If a guy wants to date me anymore than two or three times without being my boyfriend, he can think again.
27. Tara had the following to say on Apr 2 at 5:39 AM:
Leah (#26):
I feel exactly the same way. Why are people afraid to say they're dating when they are? I think it's OK to have a couple undefined dates...there should be a period of grace in order to settle nerves and to make up your mind. Entering a relationship can be scary--there are two hearts at stake! But it really shouldn't take too long. Once again, there are hearts at stake and pretend-dating-but-we're-not-into-labels relationships just aren't healty. If you've been on several dates (c'mon, you know if you have been or not) then you're entitled to ask where it's going. If the other person gets mad or refuses to acknowledge anything is happening then stop wasting your time!
28. Kelly had the following to say on Apr 2 at 8:13 PM:
All of this makes me want to share a DTR horror story from my early 20's. (I was young and didn't know better when it came to dating.) A guy and I became friends, slowly. Circumstances got us stuck in Sydney together for a weekend and we had a wonderful time sightseeing together.
Over the next 3 months, we started going out every Friday night, often staying up until dawn just chatting and laughing, or just looking at the stars. One night he even played songs for me on his guitar, singing as I listened. To this day I've never spoken to someone as much as I talked with him.
We chatted all day over email, phoned each other a few times a week. Needless to say, I was falling head over heels in love.
At 1.5 months in, I first tried to DTR. He brushed me off, saying why did we have to put a label on it? The second and third times I tried, he denied we were dating (even though by this point we had kissed, more than once).
Of course it ended in tears some time after that, and I think what hurt the most is his refusal to acknowledge that we were even DATING, let alone in a boyfriend/girlfriend type relationship.
It's amazing what you will sacrifice when you are in love and believe that it will all work out if you just give the other person more time.