Correct the Editor
by
Ted Slater
on Mar 13, 2008 at 3:41 PM
In a recent comment, I defended my having married Ashleigh, a fine woman who happened to be 12 years younger than I am.
Intending to be an encouragement to women not to *intentionally* postpone getting married for sake of career, education, travel, and whatnot, I added:
And perhaps my story may serve as a warning to some women who are *intentionally* putting off marriage for some particular reason; they may be passed by by a man her age, who may be looking for someone with more vigor and youthfulness.
My intention was not to make older single women feel bad for not being married. In fact, I've previously affirmed older single women who, through no apparent fault of their own, remain unmarried:
In *many* other instances, though, it's just a mystery. Why are my friends Ann, Debbie, Jan and Karen still single? I don't know. They're wonderfully loving, godly, insightful, hospitable, deferential women ... but still single after all these years. And that breaks my heart. These women deserve grace and honor, and not blame.
While my intention was not to be hurtful to older single women, my wife and some friends have told me that what I wrote could be interpreted as being insensitive.
So here's my humble request: Please help me understand how I could have communicated in a more sensitive manner. Feel free to provide an example or two. Remember, I'm a guy, and in some ways am clueless about how women think and feel. So try to be patient with me as you bring your correction.
1. S had the following to say on Mar 13 at 3:52 PM:
1. Understand that most single women would like to be in a relationship or married. But, until such a time, we're going to make the most of it and get an education, have a career and travel.
2. Are there any single women on your staff? I don't ask this to be sarcastic, but if you'd shown the post to a single woman, she probably would've pointed out how it might be interpreted.
3. If you're going to talk about older single women, how 'bout throwing in a comment about older single men too!
2. Holly had the following to say on Mar 13 at 3:58 PM:
One effect of online communication seems to be that, since it lacks the nuances of tone-of-voice, body language, and the context of what the reader doesn't know about the author as a person, things often sound more dogmatic than they are truly meant. What you wrote sounded like you were asserting that older single women lack in vigor or youthfulness and are thus less attractive to men their own age. This is where a simple caveat or disclaimer that you knew you were making an overbroad generalization in the service of a larger point would have been helpful.
I will be 30 soon. I'm a Black Belt and a martial arts instructor. Keep up with my vigor; I dare you. The teenagers in my classes can't. :-)
3. Jennifer E. Jones had the following to say on Mar 13 at 5:02 PM:
I think the statement was just misguided. There are lots of women who intentionally delay marriage. I'd venture that very few of them are Boundless readers.
Judging by the comments and the data that I'm sure you have on the Boundless readership, it's obvious that your faithful are late teens through to 30something women who are single for a variety of reasons, some of which are not their fault.
I think a lot of these "don't delay marriage" messages are wasted on this audience, because they seem to genuinely want to get married but can't for whatever reason.
Also -- and this is a little insight to the female mind -- in this youth-obsessed, celebrity culture, a single woman of considerable age can stare in the mirror and literally pick herself apart with criticisms. Don't give them another reason to discount themselves.
Honest mistake. We forgive you. :-)
4. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 13 at 6:03 PM:
I don't think I've ever been personally offended at anything you wrote, though it is a bit sad to be reminded of the fact that people go for the younger woman over the old. Can't deny reality, though. There are many blessings with both being single and aging, though. I've grown, and I have a lot more growing to do. And I like old people. They're cool.
There are so many aspects to life outside of marriage. I guess it might not always be the healthiest thing to be consumed by the idea of marriage/singleness when there is nothing or nothing much that can be done.
5. Stephanie had the following to say on Mar 13 at 6:12 PM:
I hope I'm not changing the subject, but I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on whether there might ever be a legitimate reason to *intentionally* delay marriage? For example, if a young woman just out of college feels called to teach English to elementary school girls in Pakistan for an extended period of time, she may or may not find a man whose dreams are compatible with hers. While this might be considered intentionally delaying marriage for the sake of career and travel, etc., shouldn't she follow the calling God has placed on her heart?
I like your comment, Ted, about your friends who by no fault of their own marriage simply never happened for them. Would we also be right to say that marriage may or may not happen for those who have a very specific passion God has placed on their heart and need to marry someone who shares that with them?
6. Bill had the following to say on Mar 13 at 6:23 PM:
Don't worry about it, and don't be politically correct... or Christianally correct, either. Sometimes words need a little edge and if we sanitize everything, the meaning is lost.
7. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 13 at 6:43 PM:
Ted:
While I was able to follow your reasoning, it probably would help to be very specific about (a) who you are admonishing--in this case women who intentionally put off marriage in favor of careers and (b) who you are not admonishing--those who are single for reasons beyond their control.
It may sound trivial, but you are dealing with a large number of singles--male and female--who (a) are not thrilled about being single, (b) are single in spite of their best efforts to find a mate, (c) take substantial flak from their church about their singleness, and (d) get discouraged by people within the church from finding a mate.
In short, you've got some cantankerous singles around here (like me) who generally consider you and the Boundless folks as allies while at times feeling smacked down over things they cannot control.
As a guy who has experienced protracted singleness--in spite of my efforts--I completely empathize with women who experience protracted singleness in spite of their efforts.
Compounding matters, those of us in that boat have seen particular abuses by members of the opposite sex that appear to be a general trend. Sadly, when those generalizations are made it does no one any good.
(When gals outnumber the guys, then the guys often take unwitting advantage of the gals. Ditto when the numbers are reversed. This is an economic dynamic against which ministers ought to be on the lookout.)
On the other hand, I have seen exactly the dynamic against which you were admonishing. The trouble is, rarely does a Christian woman consciously decide to put off marriage and family for a career.
(I believe (a) it often happens as more of a default than anything else, and (b) guys do it too. However, it is a biological reality that women have more to lose when they take that route.)
That said, what you are saying ought to be addressed when gals are in high school. We really need to look long and hard at how we approach youth ministry.
If what I saw in my curriculum development class at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary--I was there right before Mohler started cleaning the house--was any indicator, we've got some revisiting to do.
8. Sandrine had the following to say on Mar 13 at 8:05 PM:
I think that, like Jennifer said, really few (if any) of the thirty-something women reading you are intentionnally delaying marriage, and this kind of comment can REALLY hurt. I was in this category for quite a while (wanting to get married, but not meeting anyone who showed interest AND was suitable following God's standards), and I've also been asked a few time if I really wanted to marry or if I had decided to stay single. Well, I never wanted to stay single, but I also did not want to marry anybody who asked (like an unbeliever or somebody I could not agree with on important spiritual matters). I did not get mad at the persons who asked me this question, though - it was well-meant, coming from older married men in the church who took a fatherly interest in me, but it still hurts to hear this kind of question or statement.
9. batman had the following to say on Mar 13 at 8:08 PM:
Ted,
You ought to have been given the benefit of the doubt. It is a given that when a topic is this sensitive people can't hear it objectively because of their own woundedness over the issue. You can't be so careful to avoid offending people that you take the teeth out of what you are saying. Incidently, you are one of my favorite boundless authors because you're a straight shooter. All your articles are really well thought out.
I think the reason there are so many single women in the church rather than single men is because women are more social than men are. Face it, Jesus didn't suffer and die on the cross so we could play church and have potlucks. Men simply see through the facade and don't care to participate, whereas women go for the social benefit even if there isn't much spiritual life there. So there are probably equal numbers of Christian single men and women, the men just aren't playing church. (btw, I attend a radical on-fire church where there are equal numbers of single men and women because it is REAL and you really encounter GOD, not programs concocted by men to keep enough membership to pay the bills and the mortgage on the church).
So all that to say that single men and women both lust after wrong desires, but women's lust just looks more spiritual because they are filling pews. They are just as self-seeking as men who don't attend at all. Sitting in a church filled with lust, bitterness and envy over not being married doesn't make you a godly Christian woman any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Men just park their junk in the driveway. Both have junk, and both need to repent and turn to God.
So what should a single woman do who desires to be married?
A. Seek God in prayer AND fasting. Read the account of Hannah in 1 Sam. 1. How desperate are you for breakthrough? Cleanse your heart of bitterness if it is there. Hannah got hers.
B. Network. Get outside your comfort zone and go to some more radical Christian meetings, mission trips, and prayer events. Don't know of any? Google. Meet new people...if you want to break into a certain group of friends, invite them to do something. If they decline because they are doing something else, they'll likely invite you to join them.
C. Read. A lot. Readers are interesting people and have ideas to stimulate good conversation. Nothing is more boring than someone who just sits around watching chick flicks and fantasizing about being married. Shut off the TV and read.
D. Honestly evaluate your overall bodily health. People who are physically healthy exude a confidence and graciousness that attracts. Not everyone can be a supermodel, but everyone can be proportional. Same goes for the men. If you find you need to lose some pounds, cut all sugar and caffiene from your diet, add fruits, vegetables, and white meat. You'll lose it so fast you'll wonder where it went. There's no great mystery to weight loss. Eat food that is as close to the way God made it if you want to look the way God intended you to look. You don't have to go hungry either. You can gorge yourself with fruits and vegetables and still lose weight. If you want to accelerate it even more, lift weights. Men are visual, but not picky. I can honestly say that as a man, I have always found every healthy woman I've met to be attractive, and very few of them looked like Hollywood models.
Hope that helps.
10. Louise had the following to say on Mar 13 at 8:12 PM:
Mr. Slater, if your marriage as turned out well for you that is good and I'm sure we are all happy for you.
But to state that your success story may serve as a "warning" to others is not as much insensitive as it is illogical and borderline stupid.
I thought as much when I first read the comment, but I would not have commented on the matter had you not made this post, on March 13.
11. k. had the following to say on Mar 13 at 9:24 PM:
Eh, we all experience foot-in-mouth syndrome every once in a while.
I think the problem with the "vigor and youthfulness" statement is twofold. First, it implies that only women are like apples at a fruit stand, being examined by a picky shopper. Whereas it really cuts *both* ways: just because a 40-year-old man would like a vigorous and youthful partner, doesn't mean the average 20-year-old will fancy him back. Second, it implies that men have more vigor and youthfulness than women in their own age group do. And both options make women sound like commodities, who risk becoming dried-up crones if they don't act before their sell-by date. That's just demeaning.
It seems that what you're trying to say is that humans (both sexes!) who want to find a mate, should keep their eyes open. So why not say just that? :)
12. Kelly had the following to say on Mar 13 at 9:53 PM:
I would agree with what others have suggested: your target audience here does NOT include single women who intentionally delayed marriage.
In fact, I don't know one woman who has intentionally put off marriage. So I get quite upset when it's implied that this is the "typical reason" that women are single, because it's not. It may appear that way to an outsider (i.e. a non-single woman) but when you start to speak to women, from all walks of life, you will find there is always a different reason for it.
13. Bene had the following to say on Mar 13 at 10:22 PM:
First of all: commendable response.
Secondly, the most obvious thing that stands out to me in this quote:
"And perhaps my story may serve as a warning to some women who are *intentionally* putting off marriage for some particular reason; they may be passed by by a man her age, who may be looking for someone with more vigor and youthfulness" is that it implies that you were one of the men who looked at women not as persons with whom to develop relationships, but as commodities. This does not seem true, given the other things that you and your wife have said, so presumably the problem is simply that Boundless has a fairly small circle of thoughts which are reiterated and after a while they all seem so normal that they can be said without enough care for precision.
You said that the intention of all of this was to encourage women to not intentionally delay marriage. Perhaps it would be more valuable if the mantra was simply repeated less and that more care was given to consider a fuller position when the concern is raised? That seems to me a much better solution than worrying about how to best phrase the same thing again and again.
14. Ted Slater had the following to say on Mar 13 at 10:39 PM:
I appreciate all the feedback. It really is helpful. I continue to look forward to what you have to say.
Louise -- you wrote, "But to state that your success story may serve as a 'warning' to others is not as much insensitive as it is illogical and borderline stupid."
My point was that by marrying Ashleigh a 36-year-old single guy was off the market. That's one less male peer for a single 36-year-old woman to marry.
15. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 13 at 10:44 PM:
Stephanie (5),
I think it'd be really neat for the person to go teach in Pakistan, if that's where h/she feels called, coolio!
Really God knows how it'll all end up. Sure a consequence might be a lack of men, but it only takes one...and you never know who might be sitting next to you on the plane :)
(Suzanne?)
16. BDB had the following to say on Mar 13 at 11:41 PM:
Ted,
First, let me say that over the last year you've gotten much better at being a "facilitator" and "moderating" the discussion with you comments.
Your comment pretty much matches up with the thesis of Danielle Crittenden's book, "What Our Mothers Didn't Tell Us." I thought you might be quoting her.
But the readership of this blog is probably not the group that needs the warning. I know several women like that, but they aren't Christians.
17. Suzanne had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:19 AM:
[Thanks for the hint, Rachael!]
Stephanie, if God has called you to a certain part of His world, you have got to go. Like Rachael said- go for it! God gives good gifts, and perhaps Pakistan is that gift for you now. (Praying also for the gift of marriage, but remembering that we don't always open all the gifts at once!)
I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to say "Sure, God, send me somewhere far away from all the eligible men." This is my very struggle right now too. But I am coming to realize that God doesn't act on a whim. So your going to Pakistan is exactly where you need to be for now.
What was that Jim Elliot said? "Live to the hilt every experience you know to be the will of God." He will take care of the details, I'm sure!
Blessings to you.
18. Lisa had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:33 AM:
Rachael,re: teaching in Pakistan
This is a true story. My cousin's wife lost her mother when she was in her teens. It was a great dream of hers to be a missionary. All of her friends were telling her not to go--it would be a silly waste of time, and she might never find someone to marry. She was indeed frightened by all this talk. She did very much want to get married. But, she really, really, felt in her heart that God wanted her to be a missionary, and she really, really, wanted to go to Africa and be one. So, she did. I have always admired her for doing what she wanted to do, (and doing what she believed God wanted her to do) in the face of much pressure, when she didn't even have her mother's love and support to help her make her decision.
She went to Africa, and began dating a fellow missionary. My cousin came along, and wooed her away from this first missionary, and the rest is history. They have three children and two grandchildren. She always says, "Not only did I NOT end up an old maid, but I actually had my choice of who I wanted to marry!" In her case anyway, following her heart and her passion was the right thing to do.
19. Kristal had the following to say on Mar 14 at 2:11 AM:
Ted, thanks for your humility in apologizing. :)
I just wanted to say that I have found Boundless's repeated warnings to not delay marriage EXTREMELY helpful. Otherwise, I probably would have just been focusing on getting ahead in my career. I feel so blessed and thankful that Boundless has championed this important message!
Thanks!
20. Sandrine had the following to say on Mar 14 at 5:31 AM:
Ted, you said: "My point was that by marrying Ashleigh a 36-year-old single guy was off the market. That's one less male peer for a single 36-year-old woman to marry." This is exactly the message I got, and exactly what I did find quite discouraging, from the point of view of a 34-years old single woman! We don't really need to be reminded that it is far more common for older men to marry younger women than the other way around - we see it everyday. But I do understand that it can be a useful warning for a younger girl who would maybe look at a possible husband with unrealistic expectations. I think this is the message you wanted to send, and I did not get offended by your sentence - rather annoyed that once more, it seemed to imply that older women who are not married are in this state because of some fault of their own, like beeing too picky. I know that this is not what you meant, but we can be really sensitive on this kind of issue ;-)
21. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 14 at 5:34 AM:
Batman:
I've observed what you are observing, but I also believe you are being unfair to the gals.
(1) Even if a guy sees through the facade, that is no good reason to avoid the Church. A dysfunctional Body is better than no Body. I'll take my hat off to the gal who attends church--envy and all--over the guy who uses the facade as an excuse to avoid attendance. Even without the Biblical admonitions from Hebrews, the conduct you describe is cowardly--not manly--behavior.
(2) In terms of bodily health, the guys have no room to get preachy over the gals. Even though the most recent obesity stats have the men slightly better than the women, the difference is nothing to write home about. Most of the single Christian men I've observed are hardly models of pristine health either.
(I'm a gym rat, but that is mostly due to medical necessity. At least that's my excuse LOL)
(3) While both sides have issues of the flesh, you are glossing over the epidemic of porn usage among males. I have blogged extensively enough about the vices of women--including the caveat that men have theirs too--and you are completely ignoring the vices that have ensared the men, even many CHRISTIAN men. Porn would not be the multibillion dollar industry without the patronage of the Christian man.
As I told Jennifer--in a previous thread--I'm a contrarian and balance is the issue here.
With all due respect, you blew it on the balance part.
Moreover, when men avoid church--even if the church is full of facades and hypocrisy--they cheat God, they cheat themselves, and they cheat the women.
22. Tracy had the following to say on Mar 14 at 6:12 AM:
Ted,
I, as a single woman, appreciate your willingness to revisit the comment, and I give you the benefit of the doubt – particularly when considering the context of the original comment. That said, it can easily be interpreted as a jab/dig at older single women.
Others have made really good remarks with which I agree wholeheartedly (#1, #2, #3, #5, #7, #11). So, I’d like to second their comments and make a few more. It seems that your original intentions with the comment were to: a) clarify yourself to another reader who accused you of boasting about having a young wife b) encourage older men to not give up in seeking marriage, c) caution women not to delay marriage. Point C (i.e. don't delay marriage) is clear, and any regular Boundless readers have been beaten over the head with it. Granted, I do realize that you probably get new readers every day, so the message bears repeating periodically.
However, your additional "warning" to “intentionally” single women was at best, unnecessary, and at worst, salt in the wounds of those women who are unintentionally single. In a nutshell, the comment added absolutely no value to your main point. You could simply have stated that it is easier and best for both men and women to pursue marriage earlier in life rather than later.
The fact that some men prefer younger women is a no-brainer. It is pretty obvious in our society. The message sent by society (and echoed to some extent in your comment) is that any woman over the age of 25 is worthless. I mean, think about it -- there is no shortage of older men who leave their wives for younger, shiny new versions --- and there is no shortage of single men in their late 30s or 40s, or even 50s who seem to think that they deserve a “vigorous” PYT (pretty young thing), regardless of how vigorous they themselves are. Show of hands -- how many women in their 20s & 30s can recount stories of being approached (and creeped-out) by much older men who avoid women in their own age group?
It is also quite obvious that the delay of marriage usually hurts women more than men. So your comment pointed out what is already painfully obvious to older single women. For these women, the comment is simply hurtful because a) she knows this already and b) there is not much she can do about it. To be helpful, maybe we should remind men of the many ways that a wife (of any age) can add value to her husband, particularly if she has used her single season to educate herself, mature spiritually, gain practical life experience, earn and save money, etc. Also, I think we should be careful about the message we send to the younger single women. Do we really want them living their lives watching the clock and jumping on the first man who walks by so that they get married before their expiration date?
Furthermore, what is particularly striking about your comment is this ubiquitous notion that single women everywhere are turning away suitors to pursue other interests. Where does that belief come from???? Why do so many people accept this premise as fact and repeat it? How many women do you know who are truly, intentionally, delaying marriage for careers or other pursuits? I don’t know any women who are doing this – Christian or not. Moreover, even among the minority of women who reportedly are intentionally delaying marriage (to finish college, or take a mission trip etc.), they are typically not delaying until their late 30s or 40s. Even a woman who goes to graduate or professional school can be finished in her mid-to-late twenties --- or is that also too old to be vigorous and attractive?
Finally, an implicit message in your comment is that pursuing marriage and pursuing other worthy objectives (e.g. getting an education, having a job, traveling, etc.) are mutually exclusive. Why do we frame the discussion as if the woman must choose one or the other? I have seen too many men assume that a woman is not interested in marriage, or cannot be a good wife because she has a career/education – without approaching her or initiating the conversation in any way. There are so many possibilities in this scenario. Many intelligent and capable women have stewarded their single season wisely by living active lives and pursuing careers, but many of these same women are willing to quit their jobs or cut their working hours for the right man (quiet as it’s kept this is true even of high-powered career women). Also, some career options are conducive to having a family. Some careers/organizations provide flexible scheduling, work-at-home options, or off-and-on ramps for women who want to stay at home when their children are young, while retaining the option to return later. If nothing else, let’s stop assuming we know the motivations of single women, and let’s stop limiting their options a priori.
23. Louise had the following to say on Mar 14 at 6:29 AM:
Mr. Slater, I am in my early 40s, your own age I believe, and I have so many friends well into their 50s and 60s that I can easily view my own 54/55 year old partner as my "peer".
The older one gets, the less difference age makes, I believe.
But saying your success in marriage could be a warning to others?
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Just my opinion, of course.
Have a pleasant day!
:)
24. Leah had the following to say on Mar 14 at 7:42 AM:
Hey Ted,
Good post- and I think people were taking it the wrong way when they thought you were criticising older women- but I think you started playing that "fake sorry" game when you said While my intention was not to be hurtful to older single women, my wife and some friends have told me that what I wrote could be interpreted as being insensitive.
It's that whole "sorry you interpreted it the wrong way" type thing... like, I don't think you really had much to apologise for anyway, I guess I'm just saying that if you're going to apologise, you may as well do it properly? I dunno. I realise it's not as bad as saying "sorry if I hurt you" but it still kind of shifts the blame off you a bit... blah, it's late and I'm tired, I'm not sure if I'm making a lot of sense. Hopefully you get the direction I'm going in. Like I said, I don't think there was really any onus on you to apologise, so I think it's good that you did.
25. P&P had the following to say on Mar 14 at 7:43 AM:
I've been so busy with work that I haven't had as much time to comment as I would like.
I will say this, however:
If a 36 year old man is primarily interested in significantly younger women, he's probably not someone I'd want to date anyway.
In fact, I seem to recall a snippet of last week's podcast where the online dating mavens were talking about an older man who said on his profile that he was interested in fairly young women. They were fairly creeped out by the age difference (among other things), which reinforced my view on the matter.
I realize that by asking this question, I'm probably not going to be posted, but I'll ask anyway:
Ted, you've mentioned the age difference between you and your wife on a number of occasions. Is there any particular reason why you keep talking about it? I've seen my share of May-December romances and I've noticed that as the relationship progresses, the less of an issue it becomes. That doesn't seem to be the case in your particular situation.
26. obewan had the following to say on Mar 14 at 7:43 AM:
While Ted's comment may have come off as insensitive to some, I have to emphasize that it is not always true that older women lose their appeal.
In my case, the issues are more related to divorce than age. While there may be Biblical support for divorce and remarriage in some cases, I would be willing to take a never married 40 year old over a divorced 30 year old.
Actually, if she were the right person, (apples to apples) I would take the 40 year old over the 30 year old. In fact, our church singles group just merged the age 30-40 singles with the age 40+ singles group. I have NO intentions of pursuing ANY of the 30ish year olds, but I have my eyes on a few 37 year olds!
27. Leah had the following to say on Mar 14 at 7:49 AM:
Holly- being 29 and having vigour is nothing to boast about, you're still young. And there's something very irritable about someone saying "I dare you" just to boast about their own achievements. Nobody is saying 29 is old and that men will pass YOU by.
Louise, it was not illogical or stupid of Ted to point out that if men of a certain age are marrying younger women, the women in that certain age category are more likely to miss out. In fact, it's perfectly logical. His "success" is not the point of his post- it's the fact that women, as they get older, are simply less likely to find men their own age, because it's a lot more common for men to marry younger women than women to marry younger men. That's logical.
28. BB had the following to say on Mar 14 at 7:53 AM:
Comment #1 hit the nail on the head.
We can tell you have a heart for God. You are very aware of what's going on in the world around us. You know what the Bible says about different issues. You also do a good well in your job and have an excellent command of the English language. This is just one area that could be improved. Since this isn't the first article that has come out wrong and you are now aware of this, I would suggest asking both a single man and single woman to proofread before posting ANY article or blog entry. Just like a pastor often has deacons review his notes before a sermon, that second set of eyes can give you the perspective your reader might have once it is posted. Remember that once posted online, it is there forever. Google and other sites have archived the internet as far back as the late 90s therefore what you type now will last until the second coming.
(way back machine)http://www.archive.org/index.php
29. Matt had the following to say on Mar 14 at 8:25 AM:
Ted,
Thanks for being such a good example of manliness with how you handled this issue. I'll have to save this one in my playbook.
Matt
30. Carrie (the original) had the following to say on Mar 14 at 9:08 AM:
Ted, men have come to your defense. Women have compelled you to be more compassionate and have (kind of) offered ways to aide you.
I think you would do well to remember that the women who you are admonishing are the ones who will get offended. Have you ever seen that T.V. show where this biker-like dude tries to help people with their finances? (I can't remember the name of it, but it's on cable.) The people he tries to help get very often get offended at his comments and some times continue in their destructive behavior.
The same principle applies to you and your articles. If people are intentionally delaying marriage, they aren't going to call a spade a spade. They will make excuses and come up with all kinds of "noble" reasons why they are still single.
Repentance from sin is never as easy as someone pointing it out only for the sinner to recognize it and say "Oh, huh, yeah. I never that about it like that. I think I'll stop doing it now."
Continue to write the hard stuff. Women don't need to be let off the hook any more than men do.
My pastor is really good at saying the hard stuff when it matters and I love him for it.
And remember "no discipline seems good at the time".
As a woman, I thank you. Please continue to write the hard stuff. The souls of your readers depend on it.
31. Rosabacio had the following to say on Mar 14 at 9:54 AM:
What you posted is no different than other comments I have witnessed on this blog. There seems to be an assumption that older women are turning down dates left and right. And that they are grey haired spinsters sitting in rocking chairs knitting all day. LOL!
This is not true of my friends or myself (since being saved 10 years ago I have not been extended an invitation to date). At the same time,I am turning 36 soon. I don't look at day over 21. In fact, I'm preparing to run a marathon next year. Not to be an ego maniac but I'm attractive and attract interest from unsaved aquaintances all the time which I of course turn down. Men 10 years younger could not keep up with my vigor and youthfulness. So I don't take offense to what you said since I know it's not true for me.
BUT, I do think it can be offensive because there are women closer to your age who wonder why they aren't married and then realize perhaps they don't have the perceived "vigor and youthfulness" you describe.
At the same time, I personally would rather a man with youth and vigor myself. But I don't have to marry a man 12 years my junior to accomplish this. Although, I do tend to be attracted to younger men myself. LOL!
32. Justin had the following to say on Mar 14 at 10:03 AM:
My point was that by marrying Ashleigh a 36-year-old single guy was off the market. That's one less male peer for a single 36-year-old woman to marry.
I have a formula for dating younger women that keeps me from being considered a creepy old guy.
Acceptable Age = 1/2 your age + seven years.
For example, if you are a 30 year-old man, you divide your age in half, that is 15, and then add 7 years, you get 22, and that is the youngest you can date. 22.
A 30 year old guy can date a 22 year old woman, and it isn't a sketchy relationship.
Sadly, for you, Ted, you married one year too young. A 36 year old man can only date someone 25 years of age or older. (36/2 = 18 + 7 = 25)
People were definitely talking about you behind your back.
33. Ted Slater had the following to say on Mar 14 at 10:15 AM:
Justin, you wrote: "Sadly, for you, Ted, you married one year too young."
I guess I did! :-)
Ah, but let's do the math now: 41/2 = 20.5 + 7 = 27.5.
My wife is ... um ... hm ... 29 now. We're solidly in the non-sketchy camp now. ;-)
34. Jennifer had the following to say on Mar 14 at 10:58 AM:
As the poster to whom you unnecessarily "defended" marrying Ashleigh, I want to say again, I was not challenging your perogative to choose a younger mate, but rather the implication that large age differences in marriage are somehow realistic goals for men who aspire to marry, when they are not. Again, less than 8% of men actually marry women who are younger than them by 10 years or more, according to US census data.
It is quite fair and appropriate for Boundless writers to warn women about the implications for delaying marriage, as they have been (ie. Danielle Crittenden piece). But to do so in the same post as one where you encourage men to go younger, pointing to yourself as an example (along with Luther!), was in very poor taste.
35. Katie B had the following to say on Mar 14 at 11:48 AM:
My complaint here was that the comments seemed to imply that singleness is such a terrible and deficient status that it requires someone to blame for it. Yes, marriage is desirable but being single isnt a deficiancy, but simply a point on the journey. I also felt a little objectified, similarly to what K described as apples, women feel objectified enough by the guys who are 'shopping' that doesnt need to be encouraged.
36. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:04 PM:
Lisa,
Neat about your cousin's wife! I'm still not 100% sure what to do about the overseas missions department. Just hoping something will be clear to me and that if I'm to go something will open up and that I'll 'just know'. Sometimes I partially pursue blatant overseas ministry opportunities but usually don't go all the way. Did teach overseas for about 3 years, but it wasn't full-time "ministry". For the most part I wouldn't consider my experience as a tent-making one either, though maybe it was slightly more that way in my 2nd experience. Part of me would love to go somewhere (and maybe to the same place repeatedly or different places in response to disasters) in my natural breaks so that I don't have to take a whole quarter off as that would be 1/4 of my yearly income, which isn't high. But just dreams/thoughts/ideas...In the meantime, I want to be used where I'm at. And elements of the faith do sometimes arise in the international community of my job.
Still, though...don't want to 100% rule missions out. Have had an at least vaguely missions heart since childhood. So, who knows...
37. Sara had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:14 PM:
Ted, just weighing in: I'm pretty sure the offense was taken because you said that by marrying a younger woman you were taking a 36 year-old man 'off the market' for other 30-something females.... and you didn't express any regret about it, or compassion for the 36-year-old women who may have felt a bit more hopeless when they saw you two marry.
In your defence, though, I'm surprised nobody's referenced Robert Herrick. To a chorus of groans, I quote,
'To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time'
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying:
And this same flower that smiles to-day
To-morrow will be dying.
[...]
That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.
Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry:
For having lost but once your prime,
You may for ever tarry.
38. Louise had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:18 PM:
Re comment 32,
This "half the man's age plus seven years" dating age formula is included in Alex Haley's book "The Autobiography of Malcolm X."
If memory serves, it was the formula to determine a perfect age of the prospective bride for a Muslim man.
I think the source of this formula was the Rev. Elijah Muhammed.
39. Sara had the following to say on Mar 14 at 12:43 PM:
Rosabacio wrote,
"I personally would rather a man with youth and vigor myself. But I don't have to marry a man 12 years my junior to accomplish this."
Ha, good point! I wish people would just straight up say, 'beauty and childbearing capacity'.
40. Bethany J had the following to say on Mar 14 at 4:11 PM:
Having grown up in another culture makes me immune to so much of what Americans consider insults. I consider that a positive! I don't see how your sentence was insensitive.
41. batman had the following to say on Mar 14 at 9:33 PM:
Amir, #21
In reply:
1) Neither party are being obedient to God, guys who avoid church or women who go. Neither are attending for the reasons stated in Hebrews, so neither can claim to be in obedience to that passage. They are equally in sin.
2) My point was what women could do to help themselves out. A coorelative suggestion to the guys would be to lose the video games, get a decent job, and start investing towards a family life. Guys are turned off by women's lack of attention to their health the same way women are turned off by guys lack of ambition to do anything with their lives but entertain themselves.
3) Porn usage among guys is equivalent to chick flick usage among girls. Both block intimacy, and both set unreasonable expectations of body image, wealth, romance, and sex. The only difference is the social acceptance of the women's vice. We don't ask you to turn the pages of Playboy for us, so why do you ask us to sit thru a romantic movie starring a wealthy uber-romantic male whose wealth and status we have as much hope of achieving as you have of looking like Pamela Anderson? Is that fair? Personally, wealth and looks are not an issue for me, so I don't feel the sting of it because I can match it if I should choose to date. But most of my Christian brothers cannot, and thus feel intimidated when they approach girls with unrealistic expectations about wealth and "mojo". :) Its the same feeling you have when you are overlooked by a guy who has unrealistic expectations about physical beauty.
Guys' vices are girls vices are different, but both are equally sinful, and in equal quantities.
My entire point was to say that just because there are less guys physically in church does not mean that there are less serious Christian guys than girls. If you go to more radical Christian events like The Call, OneThing, and Pentacostal/Charismatic gatherings where there is no reason to attend except because of a passion for God, then there are equal numbers of single guys and girls. Its only in the dying evangelical streams where there seems to be this issue. But that's a whole 'nother debate. :)
42. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 15 at 5:36 PM:
Batman says:
While that assessment of vices is correct, I disagree in this respect: pornography carries a much greater impact in terms of its addictive nature and capacity to devastate families in both relational and financial terms. It's like comparing tobacco with methamphetamine: porn is more like meth; chick flicks are more like tobacoo. Neither are good, but one is far more devastating in its potential than the other.
During my college days, I attended a Pentecostal church (AoG) for 4 of my 5 years. I didn't notice that even split to which you refer. I'm not going to say that you're wrong, but my experience is not congruent with your observation. I left that church because I was a third class Christian there: the only tongues in which I speak are English and Redneck. ;)
43. R had the following to say on Mar 15 at 9:49 PM:
Ted,
As an older Christian guy I was encouraged by your article. For many years the Christian sisters around my age have mostly been career focused and do not seem to be interested in marriage, or they are too passive in dating matters.
Interestingly enough lately I have been sensing interest from some of the younger sisters (10+ age difference) and having started praying over this.
What you did was quite bold, I am not sure I could do what you did knowing the kind of backlash that would be coming (nor would there be a proper way of doing this ... sometimes the truth hurts).
It is a good message and needs to be shared.
44. Leah had the following to say on Mar 16 at 8:48 PM:
Justin-
Acceptable Age = 1/2 your age + seven years... Sadly, for you, Ted, you married one year too young. A 36 year old man can only date someone 25 years of age or older. (36/2 = 18 + 7 = 25)
People were definitely talking about you behind your back.
You can't be serious.
45. Jane2 had the following to say on Mar 17 at 10:33 AM:
I can't believe Batman compared Porn and Chick flicks. Wow. Thank you Amir for speaking up.
46. Alicia had the following to say on Mar 17 at 12:19 PM:
Ted you wrote:
"....And perhaps my story may serve as a warning to some women who are *intentionally* putting off marriage for some particular reason; they may be passed by by a man her age, who may be looking for someone with more vigor and youthfulness."
I don't think that your comment was meant to be taken offensively. I think that what you were aiming at was *motivation* instead. (To motivate women who are intentionally putting off marriage).
I can see how this can be taken in a hurtful way though by someone who is older and who IS searching for a spouse but have found none yet though. I think that you could have saved the controversy in the statement, by first highlighting the point that you were directing the comment to women who were being intentional about putting marriage off until later and not to all women who are older. I would have probably reworded the way that you wrote the statement too, that they will be passed by for someone younger.
There is some truth in your argument--sometimes guys do seek relationships with younger women. I'm speaking from personal experience. I am still fairly young (pre-30's) and I always joke with my family and friends that I'm an "older-guy magnet". I somehow always seem to attract guys that are 20-25 years my senior, but not usually guys who are my age. I'm not quite sure why this is, but it seems to happen...a lot.
BUT, I don't think that if a woman is older she is automatically disqualified from the dating/marriage scene. Not every guy is attracted to younger women. Just like not every guy is attracted to blondes or brunettes or redheads, etc. Each guy has his preference and each is going to find his true beloved, whether she is younger or older, blonde or brunette, etc., petite or plus size, etc., caucasian, asian or hispanic, etc.....you get the idea. :)
We are all unique individuals crafted specially by God. He knows the plans that He has for people's lives and age isn't a limit for Him. If so, Abraham and Sarah would have been in trouble for having a child. God's plans are much bigger than our own.
If a woman is older and has still not found her true love it does not mean that her wishing and dreaming days are over. God still has a plan for her life and I believe that He will fufill those desires and dreams that she carries around in her heart.
However, she should (as I think you were trying to nudge at in your article) do everything in her power to make sure that she is prepared for marriage--whether at 25 or 55. I think that your warning was not meant to be against age itself, but against complacency...at any age.
Prepare those fields for rain girls! (Referring to the quote in the Facing the Giants movie). :) Let us be those "farmers" who are trusting God to bring the rain. ;)
47. rosabacio had the following to say on Mar 17 at 2:29 PM:
R said: "sisters around my age have mostly been career focused and do not seem to be interested in marriage, or they are too passive in dating matters"
Not all women your age are thinking about careers only. I believe while women wait on marriage they only do the next logical thing which is to provide food and shelter for themselves. I think it's unfair to sterotype them up for that. Further, how would you know that they aren't interested in dating unless you ask them. Finally, you say they are 'passive' in dating matters. Well as the man it is your role to pursue, a woman should never have to be aggressive in dating matters. That's the man's job, woman are just supposed to respond. Perhaps women your own age are 'intimidating' and therefore the younger less intimidating ones are more attractive to you? Just a thought.
48. em had the following to say on Mar 17 at 7:54 PM:
#22, was exactly correct in saying:
"Many intelligent and capable women have stewarded their single season wisely by living active lives and pursuing careers, but many of these same women are willing to quit their jobs or cut their working hours for the right man (quiet as it’s kept this is true even of high-powered career women). Also, some career options are conducive to having a family."
I couldn't have put it better and I won't try.
Many Christian gentlemen are kind, compassionate, hard-working and extraordinarily shy when it comes to having a conversation with women. If they happen to be around a woman who is also hard-working, well-educated and capable of speaking her mind, they may go from being shy to mute.
The woman then concludes him uninteresting and difficult to respect (because he won't bother to engage her in conversation) and he concludes her arrogant (or "intimidating") and more interested in her career than marriage -- without them ever having the benefit of an honest conversation with each other.
I'm in no way seeking to judge all guys here or suggest that this pattern accounts for single Christians generally, but I have observed such a pattern for years in a Christian subculture very like what many Boundless readers seem to experience.
My advice to all the boys and girls, talk with each other. :-)
BTW, I am one of the girls who has delayed marriage past 25. Was it intentional? Yes, partially. I was in no shape for marriage in those earlier years due to some rather serious personal issues. I'm more ready and will make a much better spouse now - but I'm glad I didn't rush to get married sooner and if singleness is the price for not having made a foolish marriage decision, then I think it worthwhile.
49. Leah had the following to say on Mar 17 at 8:59 PM:
Batman,
your comment is probably one of the most offensive I've ever come across on Boundless.
Face it, Jesus didn't suffer and die on the cross so we could play church and have potlucks. Men simply see through the facade and don't care to participate, whereas women go for the social benefit even if there isn't much spiritual life there. So there are probably equal numbers of Christian single men and women, the men just aren't playing church.
Stop putting social interaction down as a "facade" just because you're not social. How on earth can you claim there isn't much spiritual life in social interaction if you've never gone for it? The social groups in my church are breeding grounds for spiritual discussion and growth. Social interaction is not a "facade", Jesus had friends and there was spiritual growth within that group too. I also happen to know many social men who are wonderful at promoting spiritual discussion within social groups. It's absolutely ludicrous that having a social life is "playing church" and ignoring what Jesus died for. It's being loving (oh, look, somethign Jesus commanded us to do), it's looking after oen another (oh look, another command) and it's promoting spiritual growth (I'm sensing a trend).
And... what's this??... you actually advise that people get out and network! But wait, we can't do that, that's "playing church" and putting up a facade. You're going to have to decide: do you want people within the church making friends and having social interaction, or not? Because in the same post you've both condemned it and recommended it.
And how can you say So all that to say that single men and women both lust after wrong desires, but women's lust just looks more spiritual because they are filling pews. Are you saying that if a man is in a pew, obviously *he's* spiritual, but if it's a woman, she's just play acting?? How sexist.
And, for your information, it's impossible to cut all sugar from your diet, and if you did, you'd end up in hospital. Sugar occurs naturally, and in very high quantities in the food you put up on a pedastal- fruit. If you "gorge on fruit" as you suggest, you'll actually find yourself eating too much sugar. And if you were to completely cut sugar out of your diet, you'd be cutting out a key bodily necessity. Yes, that's right, your body needs sugar. Just not in massive amounts.
50. R had the following to say on Mar 17 at 10:16 PM:
Rosabacio (#47) says:
"Perhaps women your own age are 'intimidating' and therefore the younger less intimidating ones are more attractive to you? Just a thought."
Nah, nothing intimidating at all at the ones my age. (I have dated a few.) I am just not attracted to passive women. I am more interested in a woman like Ruth (as in Book of Ruth). A girl does not have to aggressive to catch a man's eye, but she should not be passive. Passivity is just not attractive.
51. Rosabacio had the following to say on Mar 18 at 10:37 AM:
#50 maybe you can clarify your definition of passive? Are you saying you need a woman to do what Ruth did in the Bible? Like defining the relationship? Be careful, a man needs to be willing to take a risk and seek the woman out. I have found that many woman are resorting to very aggressive acts in order to 'win' a mate. I've seen this first hand and it's desperate and not at all what God has in mind for male leadership in a relationship. A woman should not ask a man out, she should not have to pursue the man. That's not biblical. So perhaps you can clarify your terms here as far as your view of passivity in women.
52. R had the following to say on Mar 19 at 7:53 PM:
> #50 maybe you can clarify your
> definition of passive? Are you
> saying you need a woman to do what
> Ruth did in the Bible?
As I mentioned in #50, for me the women doesn't have to be aggressive, but if she pulls a Ruth ... :-)
> Like defining the relationship?
She did more than DTR.
> Be careful, a man needs to be
> willing to take a risk and seek
> the woman out.
We do not see Boaz asking her out on a date/courtship/marriage.
> I have found that many woman are
> resorting to very aggressive acts in
> order to 'win' a mate. I've seen
> this first hand and it's desperate
> and not at all what God has in mind
> for male leadership in a
> relationship.
Seems to work for my female friends when they were proactive (i.e., first step) with their now husbands.
> A woman should not ask a man out,
> she should not have to pursue the
> man. That's not biblical.
That seems to be a stretch in light of Ruth's actions, but maybe we should agree to just disagree.
> So perhaps you can clarify your
> terms here as far as your view of
> passivity in women.
Passivity = lack of action; non-proactive.