DTR Success Stories
by
Ted Slater
on Mar 26, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Last year when the Boundless team was laboring over our DTR (Define The Relationship) Assessment, we were hoping to help young adults find clarity in their relationships. From time to time we hear from those who've taken the test, and whose relationships have benefited as a result. Here's an e-mail we received from one such young woman just this afternoon:
Dear Boundless,
Well, it was two more weeks before I had the guts enough to bring up the issue. When I finally did it was not as bad as I thought. The following is a recap of how it went down:
I felt the need to clarify our relationship because people were being to wonder why both he and I were busy at the same time. After being teased a bit at church I decided that something needed to be done.
We has just spend a large amount time together watching a movie, having dinner, and enjoying each other's company just talking and laughing. When I was ready to leave after "hanging out" he walked me out to my car and I simply asked him, "What are we?" Finally I told him that I wanted to be able to tell people something when they asked and was tired of not feeling like I was being honest with people as well as myself. He then took up the ball and told me that he liked me and that he would like to date me. To which I responded with a "yes." I felt kind of dumb for waiting as long as I did because when I told one of my friends, she said, "Finally, I thought that he would never ask!"
It's weird because after we agreed that we were officially dating, we talked about what we would say when people asked. We agreed that we tell them that we had been seeing each other least a month or two, but now we were officially dating ( aka, " boy-friend and girl-friend").
Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to ask. The worse that could happen is that he clarifies with a no.
I think for women, we are scared to bring up the issue because we don't feel like it is our place. I also think that many of us struggle with the idea of losing a close friend when we ask for clarification. I believe that it is a necessary risk that we all need to be willing to take regardless if your are a man or woman.
I took the risk, and it paid off. Be willing to take the risk: Sometimes you will win and sometime you won't, but you will never know unless you try.
Thank you so much for this resource. I have referred many of my friends to it and they love it.
How about you? How have you found our free DTR Assessment helpful? Feel free to either leave the specifics below (be as verbose as you'd like) or send your story to editor@boundless.org
1. rosabacio had the following to say on Mar 26 at 4:32 PM:
This is a very uplifting DTR =)
Sadly, I had 3 DTR conversations and none of them resulted in a "do you want to date" instead "oh, I only see you as a friend". All that to say I can totally understand the strength and courage it takes to gather guts to ask a guy for clarification. Way to go!!!
2. Tami had the following to say on Mar 26 at 6:06 PM:
A question, rather than a comment -- I've done some highly unscientific "testing" of the DTR tool to see how various responses turn out, and I notice that "connection" scores spring up a lot higher when you fill in the check boxes that indicate you've had some physical intimacy.
I did a side-by-side test, and I got a much higher "connection" score when I checked only the boxes reflecting physical/flirtatious/sexual behaviors (i.e., the things you typically discourage on the site), than I did when I only checked the boxes for the the questions that merely reflected time spent together or talking (which seems like the more appropriate way to build the connection, especially from the Boundless perspective).
So, according to the tool, a "high" connection must include a physical relationship. However -- we all know that "hooking up" has far less to do with a true interpersonal connection than it does... well... hooking up. Whereas, if you only check the "we hang out and talk" boxes, it looks as though you have a lower connection.
Can you explain the rationale here? Does this get addressed in the email report? I'm not criticizing -- just confused. Thanks.
3. John D. had the following to say on Mar 26 at 6:24 PM:
I found your "World's Worst DTRs" videos most amusing.
4. Pat had the following to say on Mar 26 at 8:11 PM:
Does it have to be a success story?
I'll spare the details, but I'll just say that it's more of the same:
"You're a great guy....you have so much passion for the Lord...you're the godliest guy I know (**seriously, she actually said that**)...I love spending time with you...I've learned so much from you...we have a lot of fun together...BUT..."
and you know the rest. I'm really sick of hearing how great I am.
Someone put your money where your mouth is.
But seriously, praise God for courage, grace, and success stories. May everyone keep doing right by the Lord and by the person they are hoping for.
5. Sarah P. had the following to say on Mar 27 at 8:10 AM:
Hehe, let's just say that I wish I had been reading boundless a year ago. There are definitely a few ways to do these conversations wrong, and I think I've hit several of them.
1) During times of life that are emotionally difficult altogether, it is probably not a good idea to even be thinking about romance.
2) Do not try to do a DTR via email, no matter what.
*sigh* Such is life.
6. Carrie (the original) had the following to say on Mar 27 at 9:06 AM:
Sarah P. (#5)
"Do not try to do a DTR via email, no matter what."
I'll second that. I kind of wish that I heard that a year or so ago. However, if I had, I wouldn't have heeded because I am so stubborn.
Can Boundless writers compile a list of how not to do DTRs?
I'll offer up a second one: Don't confess your admiration on your blog, especially if you're female.
7. Anna had the following to say on Mar 27 at 9:48 AM:
Pat: As a woman who's heard the "you're great but...", I completely sympathize. It is frustrating. It's got to be hard, just don't let it dissuade you from trying again. We gals are counting on guys like you to step up to the plate! Although I know not every DTR results in a relationship, guys deserve much respect for taking the risk and putting themselves out there.
As an aside, my pastor back in undergrad told us once that every DTR story is a success story. Either you "succeed" by beginning a relationship, or you "succeed" by not tying up time on Right Now at the risk of passing by Right.
8. Laurie had the following to say on Mar 27 at 10:46 AM:
I had 2 DTR conversations with the same person, several months apart. The first one to ask what we "were," why he spent so much time talking to me, etc. It was established at that point that we were "just friends"...things progressed, and the second DTR was me basically again asking what was going on, that I didn't want to be his perpetual "buddy" and wished for a serious relationship based on commitment. He basically said he didn't have peace with it, it wasn't time, he wasn't sure, Maybe in the future something could happen but for now, no, he wasn't going to take it to the next level. I was sad but he was honest with me, and that's all I could ask for. We stopped talking as much (although we still talked some), and I went through a long painful few months of letting go, trying to get "over" him, and trying to avoid him when I saw him. Through the whole time of "letting go" I grew so much closer to the Lord and He became my focus! Praise the Lord! My friend and I gradually ended up talking more and more, and it frustrated me, but after the second DTR I had determined never to bring up the possibility of "us" again. And I didn't have to...About a month ago, he started talking about "us," and talking to my parents, and we are about to start courting. I can't believe this is happening to me, and I am overwhelmed at times, but I'm so thankful to the Lord. I prayed for months that His will would be done -whether that meant my friend and I being in a serious relationship, or going our seperate ways, and now this has happened, in the Lord's will and timing. My DTRs, at the time, did not seem to go well at all, in my eyes. But I know the Lord used them to change my heart and make me more like Him, and be focused on Him and not my friend. And now, the Lord has seen fit to bring us together. The Lord is faithful if you truly follow Him and commit every area of your life to Him! Things haven't turned out the way I would have planned them or envisioned them, but God's ways are so much better! I am so thankful for Boundless! I have found lots of Godly wisdom on this website.
9. Tami had the following to say on Mar 27 at 11:25 AM:
Thanks for sharing your story, Laurie. It can be easy to forget that God is far more interested in making us more like His Son than He is in simply getting us married. [Seek ye *first* the Kingdom of God and His righteousness...] And, that if we're doing something in His name, with any hope of being blessed by Him, we have to do it His way, in His timing. Your story illustrates this. I also admire how candid you were with your friend.
Reminds me of Gary Thomas's statement about God's intention in marriage being more along the lines of making us holy rather than (simply) making us happy. Not that the two are mutually exclusive -- joy is a part of what God gives us as part of our life in Him!
10. Sarah P. had the following to say on Mar 27 at 1:12 PM:
Carrie (#6): "I'll offer up a second one: Don't confess your admiration on your blog, especially if you're female."
Carrie, it is really strange how often I mentally agree with you on here. And I have to offer up my painful "amen" to you on this statement as well. Not a good idea. Not at all. Ouch. lol.
My parents told me that someday I would look back and laugh. I look forward to that day. :D
11. Jo had the following to say on Mar 27 at 1:21 PM:
Pat,
'You're great but...' is a wound I've both felt and inflicted. I know it comes across as patronising sometimes, and I know it can be one of the most frustrating and upsetting things to hear, especially if you hear it a lot.
But, the truth is that it's often (usually, in my experience) an honest statement. It is possible and even common to find people of the opposite sex who have qualities we admire, who we get on with extremely well, who we appreciate hugely, but are not atracted to, or who just simply wouldn't be right for us.
When you hear it, it hurts, and there's a temptation to feel affronted, bitter, cynical. But if it's genuine, it's not a 'rejection', and nor is friendship an inferior relationship. That they don't see you as a potential spouse doesn't mean their regard for you as a valuable person in their life is any less.
In other words, you can do exactly what you'd want them to do if the tables were turned. It's a hard statement to say as well as receive, because you KNOW it will hurt, you KNOW it will cause awkwardness, you KNOW it will most likely be taken as a rejection.
So, don't take it as an insult, look at the positives, be gracious, and aim to move forward in the friendship without bitterness.
12. Jo had the following to say on Mar 27 at 1:23 PM:
Incidentally Pat, that last post wasn't directed at you particularly, it was just my take on the issue you raised...
13. Sarah had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:19 PM:
Pat & Jo:
I am currently going through a situation similar to this. I, however, am at the giving end of the DTR. I am not ready for a relationship. The guy that is pursuing me is absolutely great. He is all of the things you said Pat: a great guy that has so much passion for the Lord, he is very "godly", I love spending time with him, I've learned so much from him, and we have a lot of fun together. BUT, there is a huge but. I can't make a commitment to him. I'm just not ready right now, and I honestly don't know if I will ever be able to say 'yes' to a relationship with him. Nothing at all against him...I just don't know if it's right for me.
But that is what I have such a hard time understanding! Why, if he is so wonderful, can't I look at him and say "that is the guy I want to be with"? He has every characteristic that I would want in a future husband. Am I just scared, or will God show me if it's right in His own time?
14. IMO had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:46 PM:
Sarah (#13),
Wow, can I relate! I really thought I was the biggest wierdo! I thought something was wrong with me for rejecting at least 2 perfecting wonderful guys. On paper they had all the qualities I was looking for...and yet as I started dating them, I slowly stopped liking them. I literally felt sick to my stomach over continuing to date them. Sounds extreme, but it was true for me.
Take heart, you aren't the only one who has experienced this!
15. Pat had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:46 PM:
Sarah,
That's what I scratch my head about: I've been told that what I am, that (by God's grace) I have many of the qualities, characteristics, and virtues that girls are looking for, and they give me their TIME and always RESPOND well to me. But when I bring the subject up, it's always the "you're great, but."
And after being affirmed of my 'greatness' during these awful DTR's, I always have clanging in the back of my mind "So what else are you looking for?" I don't get it, and I'm sick of being the cool/funny/godly/passionate guy friend that girls love to hang around, "but...."
But as for you, I don't dare to impose on your perspective. It has to be in faith.
16. Steven had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:50 PM:
"You're a great guy but" is a line women need to stop using. Boundless did an article on this:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001515.cfm
17. Sarah had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:09 PM:
Wow. That is a great article Steven. I'm glad you pointed it out. It really is in my nature to want to soften my "no" answer. Because my answer is just that: a no, no matter how much stuff I put around it.
All in all, I truly want any future relationship I have to be in God's will. If I don't have peace about it, I guess I know that right now is not the time.
18. Adam T. had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:33 PM:
"You're a great guy but" is a line women need to stop using.
I really, really agree, but I think guys do it too. I say that because I know I used to. Sometimes it's hard to even realize that we're doing it, I think.
I've made a conscious decision to stop saying 'she's a great girl, but' and instead to say 'well, is there anything terribly wrong with her? No? Then I'm going to give her a shot, at least.' I think it's working out much better.
19. Laura had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:56 PM:
Sarah (#13) - if the only reason you don't want to pursue a relationship with this guy is because you have truly prayed it through and sought advice from older, godly people and still aren't at peace about it, then don't go there, and make that your answer! If, however, there is no reason except you're just not sure how things will work out, what have you got to lose? If this is truly a God-honouring relationship, then you won't have any regrets and will be able to part on good terms, if it comes to that.
Honestly, I don't think you'll know if he's 'right' for you unless you spend time and effort getting to know him, etc. Thousands of people have done it before us and have resulted in wonderful marriages - why should we change the rules? You will never feel 100% happy with anyone. Give this guy a chance - you may be surprised at what happens! :-)
20. Steve Watters had the following to say on Mar 27 at 4:26 PM:
Responding to Tami's question about intimacy driving up the connection score--first off, kudos to you for being curious enough to see how we chose to weight the assessment. Secondly, I want to explain that we were weighing intimacy in regards to implied connection (or even the chemical connection it can result in) more than deep meaningful connection. Our goal was to help the user see how elements of connection lined up with their clarity about what that connection meant.
21. Tami had the following to say on Mar 27 at 5:15 PM:
Steve -- thanks for your explanation and response. I appreciate it.
22. Kelly had the following to say on Mar 27 at 6:03 PM:
2 comments:
1) Confessing admiration for someone on a blog site? Uh oh, I just did that.... (should I expect fallout)? ;)
2) IMO said:
"I literally felt sick to my stomach over continuing to date them. Sounds extreme, but it was true for me."
Oh, good, it's not just me. I've tried this a couple of times, when the guy seems so great, and yet there is something in my spirit that feels SO wrong. There's no peace about it and I can only chalk it up to the voice of God telling me to walk away even when I can see no real reason to.
23. R had the following to say on Mar 27 at 9:37 PM:
Wow, somewhat surprised to see a story of a gal taking the initiative; thereby "forcing" her guy-friend to ask her out ... what would the EE fans say about that????
24. sarah had the following to say on Mar 28 at 8:39 AM:
ahh...the seemingly 'perfect guy' who fills your 'list' to perfection...this is where i say sometimes we need to throw out the list. Believe it or not, the list doesn't always determine 'right.' I figure God knows better than I do. I've got about 3 things on my list now-the rest has been thrown out. 1)pursuing Christ, 2)capable of leading myself, leading with me, leading and others 3)holds marriage in high regard
I figure the rest I can leave to GOd and whether he gives me a peace of mind about someone
25. Courtney had the following to say on Mar 28 at 9:01 AM:
In the past year, I have received two of the "You're great but..." DTRs. One I'm really glad happened, the guy was too old for me and there were red flags that I ignored. The second I'm still scratching my head over. I really can't figure out what happened...although, it was the most recent so time will tell.
I've always been the "friend" to guys, from middle school on. I can't count the number of guy-friends I've had. After a couple months of trying to build a friendship, then becoming attracted (and thinking they are attracted to - because they take me on "friend dates" though fail to communicate them as such), then the "You're a great friend" speech, I get discouraged. I don't understand how to move from the Friend to the more-than-a-friend. Any suggestions?
26. a sassy sister had the following to say on Mar 28 at 9:22 AM:
The DTR has been great in confirming my platonic relationships with guys and understanding that I am just friends with them. It also made me realize whether or not my confusion about lack of clarity in my relationship was based more on my one on one interactions with them and not what other people say. I seen second hand instances where girls had been convinced that they were in pseudo relationships by their friends in a subtle "matchmaking attempt"--not because there was a genuine attraction and interest felt or received from the other person.
27. sab had the following to say on Mar 28 at 9:36 AM:
This is my first time posting here, I´ve been reading Boundless for like a week now and it´s been a huge blessing in my life. I wish I had found it years ago because I understand now how relationships should be for Christians like me.
I´m not in a relationship right now but I took the test anyway, basing it on my last relationship that ended a year ago, we were together for 6 years but he still wouldn´t take it to the next level, now I know that I shouldn´t have waited that long.
Now there´s this young man who acts interested in me. I don´t know if I should do the DTR with him as we are only acquaintances even though we both go to the same church but don´t really interact that much, he is confusing me as he didn´t act this way before around me. I just don´t want to take that step in case he wants to start something with me because I don´t feel ready at the time to start a relationship.
What else should I do besides praying about it?
Thank you and sorry about the long post!
28. Carrie (the original) had the following to say on Mar 28 at 1:24 PM:
Kelly (#22)
Should you expect fallout? My advice would be to put to death the fantasy of him feeling flattered and then confessing his mutual admiration for you. Based on experience it gets you the exact opposite.
29. Pat had the following to say on Mar 28 at 1:31 PM:
Kelly & IMO,
I've been on the receiving end of the "something just wasn't right" routine. I can tell you, from the guy's perspective, that that rationale seems very empty and leaves us feeling like we've done something wrong, or that we simply don't measure up for unknown reasons...and the reasons are unknown because it just happens to be an interpretation of a feeling that you have. And it goes in the face of what is looking to be a great friendship/potential relationship so far.
I'm not dismissing that you might have made the correct choices, it just leaves the guy feeling at a complete loss as to how to understand the situation.
30. Carrie (the original) had the following to say on Mar 28 at 1:46 PM:
Also, as far as the ideas that have been presented so far
(1) having peace about a relationship
(2) marriage is meant to make you holy, not happy (although not mutually exculsive)
(3) taking a chance
If relationships are a means of sanctification and Scripture tells us that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, then why should anyone seek a peaceful feeling? Shouldn't fear, shaking, and/or the need to vomit all be signs that maybe we are doing some thing right??
(This is just a question on my part. It's semi-serious, but not really joking.)
31. IMO had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:01 PM:
Pat, you hit the nail on the head! I didn't understand either! And unfortunetly I could not bring myself to be honest with the men and tell them that they made me feel sick to even be around them. I know, I felt terrible for experiencing such hostile feelings toward these godly men.
Carrie (the original), I'm married now to the most wonderful, caring husband, who is truly my perfect fit. Not perfect, mind you. But my perfect fit. When we started dating, I was on the lookout for those "I feel like I'm going to vomit if I have to spend another minute with him" feelings..and they never surfaced! Instead I experienced, for the first time, what it meant to love and to be loved equally. Wow. I truly thought I would never experience and have that....
32. Tami had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:33 PM:
I agree with Pat; perhaps it would be good if we could put a label on our feelings. It would help the other person have more clarity about why, exactly, you feel the way you do.
Leaving it at "I don't know, this just doesn't feel right" opens the door to giving the other party the impression that he or she is "just not good enough" for some vague and unidentifiable weird reason that, in actuality, has more to do with *you*. Better to give a concrete answer -- "I like you, but I don't think we'd make a good marriage match because of..." is way more upfront and honest, and (if the person is otherwise godly, wonderful, etc) places more emphasis on the *reasons* than the "failings" of the other person.
Not saying you have to marry the person if it doesn't "feel right" -- but you may want to identify WHAT doesn't "feel right" before you dismiss the other person's potential. Your "feelings" may be nerves, or some sort of biases you might not even realize you have. In other words -- not really based on reason.
Another good reason to try to put a name to these feelings is plain ol' discernment --identifying ungodly behavioral patterns we would do best to not attach ourselves to. I've been in situations where something didn't "feel right" from the get-go -- and in a very short amount of time, God revealed exactly what that was. And it WAS sin.
[P.S. In my experience the "sick to be around them" didn't come from the guy in particular -- it came from knowing he (usually a "nice but not a Christian" type) was interested and I wasn't, and a uncomfortable conversation was coming soon. YMMV]
33. Carrie (the original) had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:47 PM:
IMO what I meant by wanting to vomit wasn't from feeling like you can no longer stand the person you are with.
What I meant was that when you understand the weight of the decision you are about (dating or getting engaged or about to walk down the aisle) there might come a moment where all of implications wreak havoc on your human form. . . .and you want to vomit.
It's like test anxiety, only worse.
34. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 4:35 PM:
R (#23) wrote:
>>Wow, somewhat surprised to see a story of a gal taking the initiative; thereby "forcing" her guy-friend to ask her out ... what would the EE fans say about that????<<
Found a cite for you:
Quest for Love, p. 247
"I know a woman who, when asked for a date, told the man quite candidly that since she had reached thirty she was no longer in the dating scene but was ready for marriage. The man proposed shortly thereafter. A lesser man would have been scared off, which is probably just as well."
So, while EE doesn't go around suggesting a DTR, that is slightly different from setting specific boundaries.
Another example comes from Colin Powell's autobiography. When he was called up for his second deployment overseas, his then-girlfriend stated that she was not willing to wait around as the girlfriend of a soldier. He proposed soon after and they were married before he deployed. She didn't take the initiative to propose, just drew the line and said she was no longer interested in dating. He had to decide which way to go.
35. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 5:23 PM:
Tami (#32) wrote:
>>I've been in situations where something didn't "feel right" from the get-go -- and in a very short amount of time, God revealed exactly what that was. And it WAS sin.<<
Yes, I've experienced this, too. Sometimes God is telling you to wait for a reason. A vague feeling may come into focus when someone explodes in a situation.
Of course, it is also interesting to see when God is already working on someone. I once had a woman tell me enthusiastically that if she was single, she'd buy a condo at the beach! It is easier to party that way. And I know another woman who did just that - moved into a friend's condo at the beach. But it got my attention when someone else reacted to the "beach girl" living arrangement, and this women started explaining that, no, God's leading her to move out of that arrangement and back closer to her family, a long ways from the beach.
Sometimes people try to take matters into their own hands to "fill the void" by something else before they realize that only God can fill the void:
"For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water."
Jeremiah 2:13
36. Anonymous had the following to say on Mar 28 at 9:33 PM:
AT LAST - someone else who understands the "he's a great guy but he makes me want to vomit" feeling!
I am curious, though - where exactly does the Bible say that "marriage is intended to make you holy, not happy"? I think that if I literally feel nauseous at the thought of spending time with a guy, that's probably a sign that I'm NOT supposed to date/marry him, at least not at this time. If marriage is simply about holiness, we should all marry the first saved person we lay eyes on. Or have arranged marriages. Or maybe have really extreme arranged marriages where you don't even meet the person until you say "I do."
37. Jeremy had the following to say on Mar 29 at 1:13 AM:
It is a little worrisome how many people seem to be supporting the idea of "following your heart" or letting your emotions guide you in decisions about dating specific people. Lest we forget:
"The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Jeremiah 17:9
Yes, the Holy Spirit's guidance is invaluable, but his primary means of communication is NOT the emotions, and relying on emotions is a dangerous and foolish way to make decisions.
38. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 29 at 9:48 AM:
Jeremy,
Yes, indeed, the heart is deceitful. Very true. I'm definitely not an 'expert', but it seems it would be good to use a balance of the emotions and mind. The mind can detect the essentials (=is the person mature/growing in the faith? How does the person show signs of concern for/selflessness toward others?, etc.). But at least in my case I'm pretty sure emotions will play a part in the process, assuming I'll even enter into such a process. Even if the person is of good character and is strong in the faith and if I get to know him and still there is no attraction, I would most likely listen to my emotions (lack of attraction). But my guess is that the element of attraction could change if the person was really interested in me and clearly showed it and pursued it as I got to know him. Gals may not always or ever be as visually motivated as men, so they may become more flexible with the degree of attractiveness.
But again, I'm no expert...I guess in short, I don't think we can discount the role of the emotions. Don't ONLY listen to them, but don't throw them out entirely.
39. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 29 at 10:02 AM:
In response to Pat (29):
Don't worry, women can also be on the receiving end of this. It's not just guys who don't know how to process the reasons that ultimately boil down to the lack of a spark. I was given this reason. It's hard to understand why when the person seems to logically match up. And I don't think we necessarily have to understand why that 'spark' is missing. Perhaps for some it could be profittable to ponder it to some extent (not too much, though), in case it leads to improvement changes in bettering oneself, but in many cases, it may be better to just let it go without ruminating over what might be wrong with oneself. Letting go is easier said than done, but ultimately, if it's not meant to be, it's better to strive to let go.
40. Tami had the following to say on Mar 29 at 10:48 AM:
Anonymous -- I don't think anyone here thinks that marriage is *only* about holiness. But neither is it *only* about happiness, either. I know of no good, solid marriage -- between Christians, or between nonChristians -- where it has been 100% about happiness. Though I can see how God works through every circumstance to refine and sanctify us.
Can those of you who get nauseous upon thinking about these guys put a name to your feelings? Is there a specific reason you can pinpoint? Again, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying you should marry the dude just because he's interested. But I think it helps you understand *yourself* if you can identify what makes you nauseous, and why. Pray about it; God *will* show you. Maybe the guy is too clingy. Or too pushy and impatient. Or too controlling. Or too needy. Or he looks like a nice guy, but he's got lust issues beneath the surface. Or if you're close friends -- but can't see yourself getting married to him -- why not? Your intuition may be telling you something, but what is it? It might even be something going on with *you.*
I'm not condemning; I've been there. I have not been attracted to every single guy that's ever expressed interest in me. But I think we need to move beyond "he makes me nauseous" to something more constructive.
And you never know -- your feelings may change. Stranger things have happened.
41. Lauren T. had the following to say on Mar 29 at 2:58 PM:
There have been two times when I have gotten to know someone who admired me and I had to be the one to say in essence "I am not interested in pursuing marriage with you."
It's the hardest thing I've had to do, both determining it and then trying to find a way to communicate it. Because yes, there are pleasant, God-fearing, responsible men who are not necessarily the right husband for a particular girl. The good thing is that in both cases, both sides were willing to be honest and upfront enough to figure out what was going on before there was a whole lot of hurt to be had. So I would count both cases as very successful even though both times the determination was "no".
There are two things I think need to be determined for a husband.
1.) Is this man a Godly man who can lead me me and my children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren? Do we share the same beliefs to the extent that I trust his vision of Godliness now before I commit to following it?
2.) Do I enjoy this man's company?
Yes, some emotion should be involved after facts and beliefs are considered. A husband and wife SHOULD enjoy each other! I think the problem comes if #1 and #2 get confused.
42. Shawni had the following to say on Mar 30 at 2:21 PM:
wow, I can relate to those frustrated by the "you're great but..." line. I can totally understand it if the relationship didn't get too far - if perhaps you went out on a few dates and the "spark" simply wasn't there at all.
What I strongly encourage guys NOT to do is to tell a girl you want to marry them, and THEN do the "you're great but..." without having some substantial reason for the change. This happened to me and it is the most infuriating thing in the world... especially since *I* was the one without the "spark" at first, and I told him so, and gave reasons why I thought it was so. After a few weeks of uncertainty as to whether or not I wanted to continue our relationship, I decided that, since he seemed like a good guy in "essentials", and he liked me sooooo much (he said), I would do would I could to see if I could "fall in love" emotionally.
Well, I did. And then, a couple weeks later, he said he wasn't excited. No explanation, except that I hadn't done anything, nothing had changed, he just didn't want to continue. He said it was something similar to deciding he didn't like the color of my hair.
Oh so helpful. :/
43. Andrew (tlw) had the following to say on Mar 30 at 6:16 PM:
Team,
It is true that we like some people and not others. [But] We are called to nourish and support ALL believers, not just get along with the ones we like and tolerate the rest.
I’ve experienced the “I can’t stand you another minute” feeling from opposite gender believers. Not pleasant. But I’ve also felt that way about others, at times. What gives?
It is true that we sometimes discern the heart of a person without realising it. Sometimes we discern accurately. But we are also subconsciously influenced by the socio-cultural filters that we see life through. These filters can distort how we experience the world around us, and the people in it.
Strong emotional reactions are an excellent tool for identifying these filters. In filtering how we see the world, they can act as barriers that inhibit our forming relationships with God and with people. Try this exercise: what comes to your mind when I say the words “black,” “unemployed,” and “Colin Powell?”
I think that we too often sell our brothers and sisters short, by attributing characteristics to them that have no basis in reality. Wise counsel can help check this strong reaction. It may be a stronghold of learned beliefs that need removing. Our feelings and our instincts are essential; they make us human. But they can mislead us.
44. Kelly had the following to say on Mar 30 at 7:07 PM:
Tami said: "But I think we need to move beyond "he makes me nauseous" to something more constructive."
I think my reaction, my entire bodily rejection of him, is an 'early warning sign'. Thinking back on those dating relationships, of COURSE those were the guys who would have tried to drag me into bed had we continued dating. (Even if I kept telling myself in my head that it was okay, I could, with the power of God, CHANGE their ways.)
I do see the kind of physical reaction we are talking about as a warning from God.
My original reply to this thread was edited somewhat. So I'll try and write it in a more Boundless-friendly way (even though I don't think I said anything that bad; I was just being honest!)
Essentially, there have been men I dated with a LOT of 'red flag' signals but I didn't have the nauseous feeling then. It's not always, it happens about 50% of the time. I don't write someone off right away, thinking, "You make me feel sick so God is telling me no." I give them a chance.
I think it's just a physical side-effect of intuition/God's voice.
45. R had the following to say on Mar 31 at 7:01 AM:
Found a cite for you:
Quest for Love, p. 247
"I know a woman who, when asked for a date, told the man quite candidly that since she had reached thirty she was no longer in the dating scene but was ready for marriage. The man proposed shortly thereafter. A lesser man would have been scared off, which is probably just as well."
So, while EE doesn't go around suggesting a DTR, that is slightly different from setting specific boundaries.
Greetings BDB (#34), thanks for the input. Some thoughts:
Are you recommending that every gal over 30 and over should respond in this manner? (Would be interesting to see the number of wedding proposals suddenly spiked. :-) )
(The Colin Powell story is interesting but is debatable to its relationship with DTR'ing.)
Anyways, back to my question, I do not think EE would recommend a gal to DTR her guy-interest (I wish I can find the pages to quote her so I am going from memory. I do recall the story of EE's coke (coca-cola soft-drinks) with Jim dates. Not once did she ever DTR him. She definitely waited for Jim to take the lead on DTR'ing the relationship). It would be inconsistent in the idea of the guy being the initiator. What was described in the boundless DTR article demonstrated the gal calling the shots in the relationship. It puts to question whether the guy was pressured into making a decision. Like I said, just seems inconsistent.
46. Leah had the following to say on Mar 31 at 7:33 AM:
Jeremy is spot-on when he says "Yes, the Holy Spirit's guidance is invaluable, but his primary means of communication is NOT the emotions, and relying on emotions is a dangerous and foolish way to make decisions."
If you are relying on your emotions, let me guarantee you that your relationship/marriage will fail. It does not matter how much you love someone, there *will* be times when you wonder how you ever loved them. And that is why we don't rely on our feelings. Because we *know*, objectively, that we love them, even if we don't feel it at that point in time. If you put love down to feelings, you would never stay in love with a person for more than a year or two, and definitely no longer than five or ten.
47. Ro had the following to say on Mar 31 at 9:07 AM:
I highly recommend a perusal of Josh McDowell's The Secret of Loving. The book details the character qualities we should develop in trying to become the right person, and what to look for in the right person for us.
In it he writes a chapter on marrying someone in whose company you really enjoy being with (joy in being together), and longing when apart.
I can't imagine anything worse than trying to force myself to be with someone that I had no natural inclination or affection for on which to build, that would make the tough times in marriage more bearable because they were interspersed with good times and a natural affection.
I think sometimes God protects us from having a "spark" or feelings for people who would be harmful for us to get involved with. I don't think one should ignore this, or not pay attention to it.
Three of the Christian men who were interested in me in the past two years, I tried very hard to have feelings for. I could not muster up feelings for them, but did give them a chance anyway, and spent some thime with them.
What I discovered was that they were men who would have been harmful for me to get involved with. One was very controlling (started telling me which handbags / shoes / hats I could and couldn't wear and would sneak a look in my room whenever he visited in a group (to see if it was clean) and two were always telling me what my faults were, and criticizing me. A fourth, when I said a week after he asked me out, that I had changed my mind and was ready to date again - replied that "I would have to work for it, and use my 'skills' on him to convince him."
I think that God sometimes protects us by not giving us feelings for people. Because surely if God wanted us to be with someone, he would provide the feelings as well?
I have read in some Christian writings that being attracted to your spouse is one of the protections against adultery. Indeed, there would be no point marrying to solve the issue of burning with passion if you are not even attracted to your spouse.
In Song of Solomon, the lovers are very passionate about eaqch other. Its just not a marriage and not the intimacy that God expected you to experience if there is no passion. Then it might as well just be a very close friendship, and not a marriage.
48. Trevor D. had the following to say on Mar 31 at 10:30 AM:
Tami, Kelly: It sometimes works better to simply say "you make me feel like vomiting" than trying to explain the unexplainable.
The difficulty I have with the intellectual variant (the "you're not right because of reason1, reason2, etc" way) is that it leaves me wondering about the reasons themselves, and trying to think about them and how to possibly change me/you/situation/whatever (like the article mentioned above said).
I would rather have the direct statement of how you feel, rather than having to work it out from what you said about reasons or whatever. It leaves you without the bother of worrying about reasons, and leaves me with more certainty about what's going on. Harsher, perhaps, but better.
Of course, I could be the only one who sees things that way :)
49. Jim had the following to say on Mar 31 at 11:36 AM:
I agree with Ro (post #47). I believe that God will provide the spark of attraction for the person He wants you to be with. But the one caveat I would add is the just because you have a spark does not necessarily mean he/she is the one God intends for you. You need to look at his/her life and if they are committed to growing and serving in Christ.
I often see people accused of being superficial if they have standards of beauty for their prospective mate. While such desires can be taken to the extreme, I don’t think it is unreasonable to have physical standards. One requirement I have is I will not date an obese woman. In most cases (excluding valid medical conditions), obesity means something is wrong on the INSIDE. I know because I was obese and was so disgusted that I decided to get off my butt and do something about it (and have so far lost about 35 lbs). And in my case, there WAS something wrong on the inside – I was not living fully committed to God and was trying to fill the void with food and alcohol. I decided that if I wanted to be married, I needed to BECOME a person that someone would want to marry – physically and spiritually. So I have decided to make worship and service to Christ my #1 priority while continuing to lose weight and try to be as attractive as I can given my genetics.
So I would urge those who long for a spouse to do the same. Most importantly, make sure your relationship with Christ is your #1 priority and secondly, do the best with what God gave you physically.
50. BDB had the following to say on Mar 31 at 12:09 PM:
Shawni (#42) wrote:
>>He said it was something similar to deciding he didn't like the color of my hair.
Oh so helpful. :/<<
Ummm...but women change their hair color with the seasons, don't they? Especially if you count highlights...
I suppose that's why EE tells men not to utter the words "I love you" unless they will immediately be followed by, "Will you marry me?"
R (#45) wrote:
>>Are you recommending that every gal over 30 and over should respond in this manner? (Would be interesting to see the number of wedding proposals suddenly spiked. :-) )<<
All at once? Hmmm...have to think about that...that would mean that every 30-something woman would tell their kind-of-boyfriend to fish or cut bait on the same day? Now there's a vivid thought. That would likely create a target-rich environmnt.
OK, I'm in. Have them do it Friday.
>>What was described in the boundless DTR article demonstrated the gal calling the shots in the relationship.<<
Yes, I'd wondered about that, too. The phrase "Questions like that take the initiative" comes to mind.
Ro (#47) wrote:
>> replied that "I would have to work for it, and use my 'skills' on him to convince him."<<
**Cough** Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that. I believe the correct reply is,
"Great. Have you ever eaten at The Melting Pot? They just opened one a mile from church. We could go for lunch after service."
(Or something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno...)
51. Tami had the following to say on Mar 31 at 1:47 PM:
Trevor -- telling someone "you make me feel like vomiting" sounds incredibly unloving. I guess it "works" in terms of the person knows how disgusting they are to you???
Supposing a guy was interested in me, but I had heard through the grapevine that he told a friend of mine that she made him feel like vomiting -- that would be a HUGE turnoff for me and a big ol' yellow flag. On the other hand, if I had heard that he spoke to her about it more gently -- I would appreciate that.
Considering that, at times, one has to eat one's words, I would prefer they were sweeter, even if they had a sting.
52. Ro had the following to say on Apr 1 at 4:56 AM:
I agree with Jim, the presence of a spark does not necessarily mean that the person is an option for you - looking at their commitment to growth in Christ is more important. That's really great - I'm writing that one down in my journal to remind me to look for that. Thanks for the guidance Jim.
LOL BDB. Your comments are often very amusing. I did go for lunch with him once or twice after that, in which he proceeded to criticize me and enumerate all my faults (that he knew about...).
I did not really like the heart attitude of a guy telling a girl to "work for it." Girls are far too precious to have to "work" for a man's affections. Tommy Nelson has a lovely CD that's available on Focus on the Family's website on Song of Solomon. He refers to the verse in Song of Solomon about women being like precious doves in the mountains that need to be coaxed out of the clefts. Any man wanting to pursue a Godly women, after noticing her Godly character, would do well to remember that imagery, and how delicate women really are. (And precious in God's sight:)
I have some amazing platonic guy friends at church. The one guy told me that he will only tell a girl of his interest if he is sure about her, and has prayed about it. He feels led to do this in order to protect the girl and guard her heart. He said "because all girls are beautiful creations, and if we as men don't guard their hearts, they will get damaged, and that's just damage that their husband has to deal with."
I think its really important for guys to spend much time in prayer before considering who they choose to pursue.
I kind of felt that if this guy was asking me to "work for it" that he hadn't spent much time in prayer, and therefore despite previously saying that he wanted to be my boyfriend - he wasn't really sure. More male leadership needed.
Asking a girl to "work for it" can be a little insulting, if you've asked her out previously, and really do care about her.
And no, he wasn't joking. When I said I didn't want to work for it, he said that he wasn't interested then. To his credit, he did apologize later. But I was looking for a little more maturity and stability in his decisions regarding me.
53. Ted Slater had the following to say on Apr 1 at 8:40 AM:
R. wrote:
"I do not think EE would recommend a gal to DTR her guy-interest.... It would be inconsistent in the idea of the guy being the initiator. What was described in the boundless DTR article demonstrated the gal calling the shots in the relationship."
A woman is not to be passive. While it's best that the man take the initiative, a woman is free to be actively involved in the relationships she has with others. She may, for example, ask for clarity about a particular relationship. That's not the same thing as "calling the shots in the relationship."
There are a lot of things women can **do** to help relationships happen. A good place to start is right here.
54. Trevor D. had the following to say on Apr 1 at 10:37 AM:
Tami: I am probably unusual in that I'd rather have the reality up front than have to decode it from what's said, no matter how brutal it is to begin with.
Funnily enough, I wouldn't take "you make me feel like vomiting" as me being disgusting. I would take it as me stressing you out and generally upsetting you in some hard-to-fight way.
Also (and this should probably be first) I would _never_ advocate a guy saying anything like that! My original statement was more to do with girls saying it to guys, not the other way around.
Maybe it's like Dido sang in "White Flag": "If I didn't say it / well I'd still have felt it / where's the sense in that?"
I'd much rather encounter the feelings; at least I know where I am :)
55. Trevor D. had the following to say on Apr 1 at 10:47 AM:
Ro (52): You are so right about the whole "work for it" thing. If you're in love with him, then you'll do stuff for him and try to make him happy or pleased with you or whatever, but the idea of having to put in loads of work up front to "win him" is totally backwards.
That whole idea probably comes from the fact that guys do have to "work for it" - we do try to impress girls and be what they need, and that's one way girls make guys grow and become more than we were before.
And please encourage that guy you mentioned, who is trying to protect girls' hearts. I have seen so much damage in so many girls' lives as a result of guys; your friend is on the right track.
56. BDB had the following to say on Apr 1 at 3:59 PM:
Ro (#52) wrote:
>>Tommy Nelson has a lovely CD that's available on Focus on the Family's website on Song of Solomon.<<
Is that the one where the guy is telling the girl her legs are like cedar trees? I guess if she works out a lot that would be appropriate.
Ted (#53) wrote:
>>A woman is not to be passive.<<
Ro (#52) wrote:
>>I did not really like the heart attitude of a guy telling a girl to "work for it." <<
What an interesting contrast. If I read EE correctly, she is advising women to not "work for it," by which she refers to little notes, a woman calling the guy first, sharing her "feelings" first, etc. What I wish that EE did better was explain what it means for a woman to "respond." I think there are some people who have taken the position that they should do absolutely nothing. When you mix that with the Joshua Harris stuff...well, now even if men take the initiative, women decline because dating is "inappropriate." Ah, lovely.
Clearly there are men who disagree with EE's argument is that the men who expect women to "work for it" are demonstrating that they are unwilling to shoulder their God-given responsibility. It's not so much about dating, really. It's an indicator of how willing someone is to face all the other challenges in life. If a guy only sticks around as long as he's being taken care of, what happens when the woman gets cancer? Does he bail to do something easier? Does he bail on his job as soon as he gets mad at his boss? Does he keep trading in his car and adding negative equity to his loan? That kind of inability to stick to a commitment is a bad sign for the future.
57. Rachael had the following to say on Apr 1 at 4:13 PM:
Is there any kind of study that shows the type of thing BDB mentions in the last part of his comment (56)? That as well as follow-ups of red flag scenarios? Like marriage disasters that could have been detected has 1/2 of the couple heeded the red flag warning in the other 1/2?
I think it would be useful to learn about what types of problems can be detected before marriage based on the red flags. My guess is that I could guess (if observing). But it would be useful to read actual stories. I suppose no one would want to divulge the information out of respect for their other 1/2, if they made the marriage work. It would just be useful to learn those things.
Guess I don't have to worry about it at this point as there's no boyfriend or pseudo equivalent in my life but I just wonder about my judgment as honestly my guess is that if I see really good qualities my draw to the person could overlook and put up with difficult things. I know no one's perfect, but if possible I'd like to avoid humongous character flaws, though I suppose I may be the type of person that could handle certain ones. And so maybe it's okay...
58. Trevor D. had the following to say on Apr 2 at 11:13 AM:
Rachael (57): You're right that most of us who have the experience are slightly wary of describing thing like that, but not just for the reason you guessed.
One of the biggest problems I have in talking about what I've learned is that it can be very threatening to people who are heading down the same path as I was. Some of the warning signs aren't things you can do much about in the short term, and even describing what to look out for will leave many feeling like they can't ever get married.
I'm not sure what to do about this, as it seems a pity to _not_ give other people warning about what's going to hit them if they continue down their current path. However, I have to keep in mind the effect on lots of people (including the other 1/2 :) ).
59. Rachael had the following to say on Apr 2 at 5:19 PM:
Thanks Trever D. Yeah, I suppose one solution would be to let people know after their spouse dies for future generations. It would be nice to be spared of some things, though my guess is that if I ever get married I may end up overlooking some things ("Oh I'll be able to deal with it...") because of observable good qualities. Of course we all sin. But how much can we handle? Suppose we can just 'guess' what big private 'blunders' hide behind the smaller public no-nos.
If the experienced, knowledgable person felt comfortable giving the advice, and had actually seen or known for sure what particular signs might potentially mean for the future, I'd rather hear it (but of course the other 1/2 would have to be considered), even if it's hard. I suppose this might be doable in families. If the grown-up children were already aware of a parent's negative qualities, perhaps the spouse of that parent could enlighten (while not being malicious in any way of the spouse, but talking gently and matter-of-factly) the child so that the child would know what to watch for.
Like how do we know what qualities we should deal with? I guess it'll be clear to us when the 'right one' comes along?
Like for people who don't really have temper problems, if they see signs of potentially huge tempers in people should they avoid them or marry them anyway because they could put up with it? When they see small blow-ups or signs of irritability in public, does this mean the person could have humongo tempers at home? If someone is a perfectionist and seems to like to have things under control, does this mean the person will control the spouse in small ways in the future? Things like this. Don't ask for anyone to answer this, but I guess I don't know how messed up of a person we can expect. Yes we are all very messed up but how much do we allow for grace, and how much can we do without and expect to find a spouse without those qualities?
Probably if I ever meet 'the one' I'll understand how much I can deal with.
I remember a long time ago possibly when I was a teenager, I think a friend shared her opinion that everyone was allowed one (or 2?) big flaw. (May not have been talking about guy/girl stuff). :) I don't make this cut-off. Does anyone? We all have many sins, but we also have struggles that not everyone has.
I guess grace just needs to be extended to the spouse even in sinful areas where other spouse doesn't really struggle.
But beforehand how do we determine...
good thing (?!?!) I don't have any determining to do :)
Guess it is a good thing as everything works for the good for those who love Him...
And if the time does come to 'determine', that could very well be a good thing too...
:)
60. BDB had the following to say on Apr 2 at 5:45 PM:
Perhaps I rambled too much in my first response to Rachael (#57), where she wrote:
>>Is there any kind of study that shows the type of thing BDB mentions in the last part of his comment (56)? That as well as follow-ups of red flag scenarios?<<
Here's another idea:
When they train people to recognize counterfeit currency, they don't show them lots of counterfeits. Rather, they spend a lot of time studying the real stuff - when they come across a counterfeit, the see it easily.
Instead of looking at red flags, why not spend time with married couples who've been successful for 20+ years?
For example, my pastor did once list the top 5 causes of divorce. Some, like infidelity, drug use or persistent disrespect were expected.
One that got me thinking was "stonewalling," defined as when someone refuses to discuss a problem at all. That's very interesting. One of the reasons it is interesting is that people who stay married usually have lots of stories of conflict and can describe how they worked through the conflicts. So the inverse of working through them - stonewalling - is a red flag.
61. Ariana had the following to say on Apr 2 at 8:36 PM:
Regarding the frustration with people saying, "You're great, but..." Well, I find that I generally do know exactly what the "but" is, but that it's not often useful to articulate. I went to a Christian university with many godly young men who will make terrific husbands and fathers. And though I enjoyed interacting with them on a social level (and a lot of dating is done on the social level), I knew that I wasn't interested in that person becoming the one who is closer to me than anyone else. Sometimes I realized that though we could love one another well and remain faithful, we both could have probably found other people who would have really been able to more deeply appreciate and engage our unique characteristics and perspectives. I've more than once had the clear thought, "I would care for you as my husband, but I know there is a girl out there who would be happier than I to do so, and who would be a better match for you. I'm just not your girl."
All serious Christians should be able to live in charity and unity--no matter who they are--but marriage is about how well you fit together personally.