Being a Math Geek Pays
by
Suzanne Hadley
on Mar 26, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Math pays, says an article on MSN. According to the winter 2007 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers (NACE), college students graduating with math- or science-related degrees will earn significantly more than their liberal arts peers.
According to the survey, mechanical engineering students graduating in 2007 reported snagging average offers of nearly $54,600. Computer science grads' job offers averaged about $51,070. Accounting grads got offers of about $46,500, while economics majors' offers averaged roughly $47,900. By contrast, liberal arts graduates reported average offers hovering mostly ranging between $30,000 and $35,000. It gets even better for numerically savvy graduates -- they might also have an easier time finding that coveted first job.
In fact, eight of the top 10 degrees in demand are quantitatively based, says the research. Supply and demand are the issues here.
Alan Weiss, president of Summit Consulting Group, a firm specializing in management development, says a primary reason math and science graduates earn more out of college is a simple case of supply and demand: "They're much more immediately applicable in a much smaller supply." Students earning associate's and bachelor's degrees in liberal arts disciplines outnumber those in mathematic or scientific fields, according to data from the U.S. National Center for Education Statistics.
There's a silver lining for those of us who are math-impaired. Long-term career success is based more on people skills than a grasp of numbers.
Lisa Earle McLeod, columnist and author of Forget Perfect (Penguin/Putnam), agrees that good communication skills are key to long-term career success. "Being the best scientist or engineer might make you the head of the department," she says, "but you have to be a good communicator to be put in charge of large groups of people."
1. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 26 at 11:41 AM:
W00t for the engineers!
2. obewan had the following to say on Mar 26 at 11:58 AM:
The blog said:
“There's a silver lining for those of us who are math-impaired. Long-term career success is based more on people skills than a grasp of numbers.”
I have found that hands-on practical problem solving skills trump math skills in the manufacturing engineering realm. Yes, people skills are way up there too.
I pulled down a C in Algebra I, and thought of myself as math impaired. I got my math grades up to a B+ after that, and went on to complete Calculus I and Calculus II. I was never a math “geek”. Math was always just a tool to me. I think it is somewhat a myth that engineers have to be “good” at math. Gear heads make good engineers. The math part just requires a reasonable passing grade understanding in most cases. I found High School Algebra I to be far harder to understand than College Calculus II.
3. Chris B. (VA) had the following to say on Mar 26 at 12:09 PM:
I can confirm this firsthand. I lived with four engineers during college, all of whom are now making between 50,000 to 60,000+ in their first jobs (and with little or no relevant work experience, I might add), while I, the English/Philosophy major...am a bank teller. I get the distinct feeling that I made the wrong decision.
My question is, where do I go from here? I have heard that a Masters' Degree in engineering is about further specialization and therefore not a place to learn the basics, so what would be the best way to make a career change?
4. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 26 at 12:32 PM:
There is one caveat with engineering, though: upward mobility in salary is not all that great, and--depending on the field--the jobs are feast or famine.
For example, I graduated with a degree in aeronautical engineering (AE) in 1990. The Cold War was over. The Berlin Wall was down. Reagan was gone. Defense spending was down. Wanna guess what that meant to aerospace grads at that time?
Even mechanical engineering (ME) is hardly bulletproof, as declines in manufacturing can impact job growth.
Electrical engineers (EE) tend to be more versatile, though. A really good AE knows enough engineering to talk to engineers, enough electrical/electronics matters to talk sense to technologists, and enough computer programming and software development to work with IT geeks.
Back then, I hated EE. Today, as I expand my horizons in robotics, I'm wishing more and more that I had a better EE background. It complements the control systems classes I had as an AE student.
Where I live now, I'm finding a lot more folks are taking the Civil Engineer (CE) route. It might be a regional thing, but jobs tend to be a lot more stable in that field.
As for me, I'm glad to have taken the IT route. It took me some time, but I managed to find a pretty good niche.
5. Reid had the following to say on Mar 26 at 12:36 PM:
Huh. With people throwing the word "geek" around like that, how could anyone possibly refuse to study math?
6. Christina (in green) had the following to say on Mar 26 at 12:43 PM:
WOOHOO! That makes me in REALLY high demand!!! I've got the math AND communication skills.
Yeay to math major in a liberal arts school =)
7. BDB had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:05 PM:
The OP wrote:
>>There's a silver lining for those of us who are math-impaired. Long-term career success is based more on people skills than a grasp of numbers.<<
What I've noticed is that the best-paid jobs go to people who have BOTH math and people skills. Those with only one set usually limit out much sooner. For example, many lawyers can't do math to save their life; but those who do can be extremely good at handling business litigation - and preventing same.
Similarly, a good people person might get to be Director of Customer Service, which will pay well. But if she can't do math, she won't be able to manage her department budget and will ultimately fail in the job; unless she is smart enough to hire a staffer with that skill set.
Personally, I would always hire the person with math skills where possible. My boss at the time would rather hire friendly people, even if they weren't competent. (This was a point of friction between us on hiring sometimes.) Sometimes the best course is to keep the math people away from the customers...
8. obewan had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:08 PM:
3. Chris B. the English major Asked:
"so what would be the best way to make a career change?"
You could try to find a job as an engineering tech writer. If you got into writing computer manuals for example, you could transistion into a knoweldege of software. I know an English major who had his own tech writing business. He took on lots of highly technical defense contracts. I guess he made up fairly well, but he was also into photography and teaching community college on the side.
9. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:11 PM:
Reid says:
A long time ago--when I was in high school--"geek" was a very uncomplimentary term.
How times have changed...
W00t!!! ;)
10. Matt had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:15 PM:
I'm on a path like Amir, quite a bit younger at 28 and I graduated back in 2002, but my degree is in Computer Science. I too, am interested in robotics and am thinking about going back to school part time to pick up an EE degree.
In another direction, what cool geek songs are out there? I like Code Monkey (search for it on YouTube) and I like Hail to the Geek by Def Pedestrians (also on YouTube somewhere).
11. BDB had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:27 PM:
Christina (in green) (#6) wrote:
>>Yeay to math major in a liberal arts school =)<<
Yes - one of the pet peeves I have is people who think education is only to get a job. It IS easier to get the first job with a business or engineering undergraduate degree.
But a liberal arts degree is much better preparation for learning to plow through a mound of paperwork, understand what is important, and communicate that to other people.
So, when asked, I suggest that people doube-major in business and political science - or one of the humanities that requires a lot of writing. That's the best overall preparation.
Even a SAHM might need to understand health insurance, which requires being able to do the math then communicate back to the insurance company that's trying to avoid paying the claim...
12. obewan had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:57 PM:
#10. Matt had the following to say:
"I too, am interested in robotics and am thinking about going back to school part time to pick up an EE degree."
Robotics without PLC's experience can be touchy. There are few if any robotics companies left in the US. Japan is tearing us up, and automotive welding robots that used to sell for $75K were going for $38k the last time I was in the industry.
I was in a grad school program that was WAY too theoretical as far as most common job skills go. I found a better niche at the local community college taking night classes in PLC programming. If you don't learn PLC's you won't get far in the robotics controls industry. Most of the work now is with the automation builders who do control interfacing and programming. I worked for the largest robot supplier in the world for 5 years and was laid off twice. The problem is once the automation is built and programmed there is no more work until the next automation job comes along. A lot of the work is on a contract basis. Don't get me wrong, it pays very well and a good person who stays UP TO DATE can stay employed, but it is not the job security heaven many people wish it to be.
13. Sarah22 had the following to say on Mar 26 at 1:59 PM:
I don't think a SAHM (or anyone else for that matter) needs an undergraduate degree to understand a health insurance explanation of benefits. One could do some simple internet research or buy a couple books on Amazon.com and come out with more than enough knowledge to understand and compute their insurance claims. Sorry, not trying to pick apart what you are saying but I grow weary of many people (not necessarily yourself) thinking that SAHM’s need advanced (and by advanced I mean beyond high school or a couple years of community college) degrees in order to raise children and run a household. I watched my Mother (along with my Father) raise and home educate four children (who in turn have gone out and obtained college degrees - with high GPA’s if we’re using the world’s standards to measure intelligence), run a household, manage finances and have a vast amount of self-taught knowledge and God-given wisdom on numerous topics, so much that men and women alike in my church often seek her counsel when faced with health problems, education issues, etc. To me she is truly an example of a Proverbs 31 woman. She is a high school graduate who took one college course and dropped out!
14. Christina (in green) had the following to say on Mar 26 at 2:04 PM:
BDB,
Yeah...I hear you...I went to school to learn - not get a job. Unfortunately I was much better at math than any other subject, so...voila...
I have a minor in history though, and an over abundance of english and philosophy credits necessary to a mathematician, but that's ok :) It makes me more approachable than most engineers...plus I'm a woman and we have natural skills in connecting and communication ;)
Didn't staci and John eldridge mention the difference in how many words a woman says vs a man a day? Though I think you, Farmer Tom, and Amir are giving many of us a run for our money ;)
15. Colette had the following to say on Mar 26 at 2:34 PM:
I have a B.S. degree that was heavy in chemistry and biology. And I'm getting an M.S. in a chemistry specialization. Unfortunately science jobs in my area are virtually nil. While I have the potential to make a killing, I would probably have to relocate to do so. :(
16. Amy P. had the following to say on Mar 26 at 2:37 PM:
Yea!
It is nice to hear that there are other science buffs out there in the Boundless audience. I have a BS degree in science from a Christian liberal arts school where I did lots of science, math, and writing work. (An odd combination, I know.)
From a financial standpoint, people with BS degrees do quite well in comparison to their liberal art major peers, but not quite as well as those who have specialized in the engineering fields. BA in Biology is probably going to land you in the same place financially as your English Major peers, but over the long haul there are may be more options for advancement.
Being Boundless, and all, one thing that I hope that may next be posted is how WOMEN in the sciences feel within the church. I have met guys at church who asks what I majored in college--when my response is "science", it is usually a conversation killer. I feel like they seem to think that I am somehow above them or are too smart for them because of my background in science or my job in a science related company. I could tell the guy something different, but I feel as though I might as well put it out there because it is just another part of who I am. Take it or leave it, but I can't change my major now that I've graduated :)
17. Julia had the following to say on Mar 26 at 2:46 PM:
The real truth is that the best jobs go to people who graduate with a "career-specific" degree. Notice that doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, accoutants, etc. don't take general degree programs such as science or liberal arts.
The trick is to find a professional degree or technical diploma that makes you readily employable.
Oh, and as a Mechanical Engineer, I would like to debunk the myth that all ME jobs are in manufacturing. I have worked in mining, tar sands development, powerplants, construction, pipelines, refineries, papermills and chemical plants throughout my 3 years of work experience as a consulting engineer. Mechanical engineers deal with machines, manufacturing, fluids, heat transfer and materials. If you are flexible and a quick study, you don't have to get stuck in any specific industry. ME grads are just that versitile. We deal with machines, fluids, heat transfer and materials.
I would also like to point out that my plumber and electrician friends all make way more money than I do. If you want to make the big bucks, pick up a skilled trade and skip university altogether.
18. BDB had the following to say on Mar 26 at 4:25 PM:
Christina (in green) #14 wrote:
>>but that's ok :) It makes me more approachable than most engineers<<
And that's probably why they are approaching you about management jobs. You can do the people part better than the other engineers, but you can do the analytical detail, too. Most managers that fail do so because they can't make the mental shift out of their functional area to managing people.
(And, incidentally, I've noticed that it's trendy to talk about how men aren't verbal. Maybe at the median they're not - I'm not at the median...)
19. BDB had the following to say on Mar 26 at 4:33 PM:
Sarah22 (#13) wrote:
>>I watched my Mother (along with my Father) raise and home educate four children <<
Yes, in their generation they could do that. The economy has changed drastically since then - anyone without a master's degree is handicapped in the job market. Many of the jobs that were available with a HS education are now overseas; jobs that once required 2 years of college (such as teaching elementary kids and nursing) now require a master's degree to be taken seriously in the job market.
The decline in the quality of high school education makes matters worse. As a high school student my father had to complete a capstone project - something I didn't need to do until my senior year of college.
I've seen a lot of people forego education and then run into a situation that overwhelmed them. Good research skills do make it possible to be self-taught. In my experience few high school graduates possess them, except those that take debate or something similar. Pretty much all college graduates must develop strong research skills - which is precisely what is needed to cope in a knowledge economy.
The other thing my father always said is that college demonstrates that you possess the ability to finish what you start. A lot of people give up when things get tough. Those who persevere and finish college are more likely to stick with it whenever they encounter other problems in their life. At the median anyway.
20. Amir Larijani had the following to say on Mar 26 at 4:52 PM:
Julia:
I hear ya on the skilled trades route. I would take it one step further: a skilled trade + an engineering degree = really good position.
Where I went to school, we had a couple aeronautical engineering students who also had their Airframe and Powerplant licenses (FAA-qualified aircraft mechanics).
They could write their own tickets.
21. Jethro had the following to say on Mar 26 at 6:08 PM:
Or study law or medicine. If you get through medicine you've got it made. Likewise if you score a spot in a top law firm.
22. Nick had the following to say on Mar 26 at 6:50 PM:
I graduated in mechanical engineering in 2005, and while I have not had a job that pays as much as the average for last year's class, it is nice to know there's financial security in my field.
That being said, I respectfully disagree with the idea of what is "key to long-term career success." While I understand that management and supervisory positions will almost always pay more than a position that is just engineering, I personally would rather be a good engineer, doing my own job well, than be in a management position, supervising other people doing the technical work.
Even with salary differences factored in, I'm sure I'm not the only one content not to be in management.
23. James had the following to say on Mar 26 at 7:03 PM:
All hail the EE's.
I was originally interested in majoring in AE, but was convinced to go EE, and I'm glad I did.
Personal skills, though, ARE big. They make up for more than engineering competency. If you're competent, and have people skills, you're more likely to be hired into a good, solid engineering position than if you're a genius engineer with no people skills.
With that said, I think I have it made. I'm very much an extrovert, and thrive being around people. This makes the workplace good for me, and though I'm not the BEST people person, I like people and I also know my stuff as well. I may not be on the fastest track to promotion, but I can tell that I'm on the solid track that has "JOB SECURITY" written all over it. The pay is really good as well.
But whoever said EEs are very versatile is right. No matter the time, there will always be demand for EEs, especially those who went to schools who didn't make them too specialized, but kept them competent at a systems level. That enables the engineer to have the tools to branch out into various kinds of engineering NOT involving electronic hardware, like systems, or software even as long as he's willing and able to learn the nuances (and already has the basic skills down). And as far as industries go, commercial aviation is always a good place to start in: very solid industry that is globalized and thus will always be doing well even in recession.
24. Laura had the following to say on Mar 26 at 7:55 PM:
Woot for 'geeks'! I love them...no really, my best friend is one (studying a duel degree, maths and accounting majoring in physics) and so is my fiance! Does that make me a 'geek' by association???
25. Julie M. had the following to say on Mar 26 at 9:34 PM:
This is in response to Matt's comment #10:
One of my favorite "nerd" groups call themselves the Klein Four group. They are math grad students (as am I) and they wrote an entire album of great songs. They have a website, and I'm pretty sure there is a video for "Finite Simple Group of Order Two" on Youtube. I highly recommend this group to all math enthusiasts.
26. John Shen had the following to say on Mar 26 at 10:38 PM:
Woohoo! I knew being a mathlete in high school would pay off.
Collete & Amy (#15-16) As a physics major, I'm always more interested when other girls tell me they're in science. But I guess that's because I'm a scientist too. I don't know if women with science majors are treated differently in and out of the church, but I wouldn't be surprised.
What this article didn't mention is the number of math/engineering/science majors who go to grad school and work in laboratories are usually lucky to pull down $25-$30k in grad school. Looks like I'll have to reread Boundless's Best of Time & Money...
27. Reid had the following to say on Mar 27 at 7:41 AM:
@9: For the record, I meant for my #5 comment to be ironic, which was why I used the words "could anyone possibly refuse". The point is that the supply/demand discrepancy can partly be explained by the stigma attached to studying math. "Geek" in the post title is an example, although I'm sure Suzanne didn't intend any disrespect.
Still, I've also noticed the growing difference between "nerd" and "geek". "Nerd" seems to mean about the same thing as before, but "geek" now refers to someone's obsessive attitude about a particular topic: film geek, band geek, etc. It's also a verb, "geek out" or "geeked". Although if someone is geeked, then who or what did the geeking?
28. Amanda had the following to say on Mar 27 at 7:50 AM:
Being a math geek pays...
...unless you use your degree to teach 8th graders.
29. Christina (in green) had the following to say on Mar 27 at 8:40 AM:
Nick,
Unfortunately the way the business world works, you lock yourself into a salary if you stay at that lvl. Personally, I have no issue with it. 60 grand cap is plenty for me if I'm single.
However, to make more than that, its kind of necessary to agree to promotions...and with promotions comes greater responsibility for a larger group of people and less hands on technical work...simply because you are too expensive to pay for that work. Leave it to the entry lvls to do that is the mind set.
30. Michele Samuelson had the following to say on Mar 27 at 8:49 AM:
I went to college with the mentality that because I'm not a math "geek," I would be best off studying something that interested me, since for liberal arts-types, it's less about what you study and more about the fact that you studied at all. So, I studied history, and I've worked in non-profit and now at a church. I don't make tons of money, but my work is satisfying and God-glorifying.
Also, I think something has to be said. Our society needs journeymen - it needs people willing to make less money for less glamorous work. Studies like these really do nothing more than enforce the false notion that a college degree is the only respectable path.
And, one last thing - a lot of jobs are posted, especially in the government, that require post-graduate degrees these days. But in practice, the degree isn't used. Older people who have worked there for 15 years or more have lesser degrees or none at all, and are being looked over for promotion in favor of post-graduate hires. I know of one government agency where this practice is rampant.
31. Sarah22 had the following to say on Mar 27 at 11:55 AM:
BDB: >>Yes, in their generation they could do that. The economy has changed drastically since then - anyone without a master's degree is handicapped in the job market. Many of the jobs that were available with a HS education are now overseas; jobs that once required 2 years of college (such as teaching elementary kids and nursing) now require a master's degree to be taken seriously in the job market.<<
BDB that is the exact attitude that I call education snobbery and it’s completely unfounded. I'm not sure why you responded to my comment as you totally twisted what I was even saying. My point was not that no one should go to college, but that a SAHM doesn't need college degree to successfully be a wife and mother. My Father on the other hand, did have a undergraduate degree and even in today's job market is taken quite seriously, although he doesn't have a post graduate degree he's survived hundred of job cuts over the last few years as he watched most of his company’s jobs be outsourced overseas.
The thing your education snobbery doesn't take into account is that all things are possible with God. A family who desires to live within their means and to trust God to provide for their one-income family (with a husband who may or may NOT have his master’s) will undoubtedly be blessed and provided for in my opinion. In fact I can think of at least 4 younger families (at my small church) who are one-income, have 3+ kids, the husband has a 2 or 4 year degree (or none at all) and they are by no means destitute.
Also, some of your examples were poor. For example, it's extremely rare for anyone besides perhaps the director of nursing and a couple of other administrative staff to have a master's degree in a hospital. Most of those floor nurses that take care of you when you're sick have their ASN or BSN. If we went out and started mandating that you have to have an advanced degree or removed the 2 year nursing degree (as many want to do) our country would be in a serious short supply of nurses. In my county our community college is well known and respected for the caliber of (2-year) nurses they put out, these nurses are by no means “handicapped” in the job market.
Also, another small story I would like to share. I always found it funny that a surgeon I worked for always complained about and was clearly quite offended by the fact that his neighbors, who owned a much bigger boat then him, drove nicer cars and lived in a bigger house, were *only* retired military servicemen who worked as postal workers. This was always a great source of amusement for everyone in the office as he was a very skilled but very arrogant person and he just couldn’t fathom that someone without a medical degree could be living a better (per the world’s standards) life than him. I think this type of attitude is echoed by many people today, even a great deal of Christians.
32. Jess had the following to say on Mar 27 at 1:03 PM:
I'm not sure what it's like for engineers, but I realized upon graduating college with a B.S. in Biochemistry that there is not much money to be made without advanced degrees in the world of science. I already planned to go to grad school anyway, but I took a year off after college to work, and my salary range was looow. In healthcare, there are some notable exceptions to (e.g. nurses), but to be involved in public health, hospital administration, being a doctor obviously, or having any position of authority within laboratory research, an advanced degree is required.
I always loved math, especially calculus, but I rarely have to use it now... just really simple math like diluting solutions in the lab, or figuring out drug dosing.
Sometimes I look at my friends from college who are making more money in their 20s, but I'm glad for the stability of my grad school stipend, even if it isn't much. My earning potential in the future is great, and more importantly, I'm going to end up with a job that I love.
33. BDB had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:23 PM:
Sarah22 (#31) wrote:
>>BDB that is the exact attitude that I call education snobbery and it’s completely unfounded.<<
It is absolutely founded in real-world experience. Managing a staff I learned quickly that education made a huge difference in the quality of work put out by people with similar years of experience. Those with 2-year degrees automatically brought more attention to detail than those with just a high school education. Those with a 4-year business degree could add value - they could start with a business task and come back with a redesigned process to make it better - and they could do it on their own initiative. The few who had MBA's were better still - they could take a complicated mess and fix it on their own without a lot of hand-holding. There is a definite relationship between more education and the ability to solve complex tasks without help.
What education does is compress experience. It teaches you what to look for to avoid mistakes. Yes, over a 30-year career, experienced people will have learned to avoid those mistakes. But some things must be learned before people can be trusted with responsibility. Accounting and engineering are two fields like that.
In accounting, there are a number of people in jail for doing the wrong thing. People need to KNOW what the right thing to do is; it's not enough for them to just say they were doing what they were told. That does not add value to an organization.
One article I read on civil engineering was a lot more blunt on the need for accurate math skills, "The bridge will fall down."
34. BDB had the following to say on Mar 27 at 2:33 PM:
Michelle Samuelson (#30) wrote:
>>Older people who have worked there for 15 years or more have lesser degrees or none at all, and are being looked over for promotion in favor of post-graduate hires. I know of one government agency where this practice is rampant. <<
This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say someone is handicapped without a graduate degree. There are a number of fields like this where people's careers limit out with just a bachelor's degree. Marketing is not one of them, but finance is. Computer science is not, many other types of engineering are.
While I would say that lots of student loans are worse than not having the degree, there are a lot of reasons people go back and finish the advanced degree after working for a while. Frankly, most MBA programs don't want students until they've already had 5 years of work experience.
An undergraduate degree teaches you how to go to the library and look up answers, and do so efficiently.
A graduate degree is designed to teach you how to figure out the questions on your own. And that is what is necessary to be an effective leader in a field. If you are not called to be a leader, it doesn't matter nearly as much.
35. BDB had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:07 PM:
Sarah22 also wrote:
>>For example, it's extremely rare for anyone besides perhaps the director of nursing and a couple of other administrative staff to have a master's degree in a hospital.<<
I'm not sure where you're located, but that isn't true here. Maybe in med/surg in your area they don't pursue a MSN, but around here, many people do. All the nurses I know complain about the arrogance of M.D.'s. While a master's degree is not necessary to change a dressing or a bedpan, it can be a lot more valuable to those who work in ICU and/or with the higher end technology. Frankly, it's also good to add some administrative skills, given that the joint commission is going to be inspecting their charts for administrative accuracy.
You're right, if they eliminate the 2-year programs, there will be a lot fewer people who want to do med/surg. There's already a shortage there; I do believe in part because there's not enough prestige or interesting work for a highly educated nurse.
Frankly, the same thing is happening in education - when they raise the standards, there ends up being a shortage of people who want to do the basics like teach 5 year olds to read. That doesn't require an advanced degree. But the industry requires such extensive education that individuals are handicapped without it.
36. Michele Samuelson had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:14 PM:
BDB #34 said:
>>This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say someone is handicapped without a graduate degree. There are a number of fields like this where people's careers limit out with just a bachelor's degree.<<
I think we may be talking in different veins, but I also think I should clarify what I was talking about.
The gov't agency I'm referring to is a journeyman agency by nature. The people who work there are often doing basic construction and repair work; their jobs do not require creative analysis or much beyond data collection and entry. Traditionally, a bachelor's degree - preferrably in a science, but several people there have liberal arts degrees - was more than enough, since old-timers there were high-school diploma or military-enlistment types. But, a recent trend has them looking to fill these exact same positions with people holding engineering master's degrees. The pay grade is the same, the jobs are the same, but the people filling them are much more educated than the work requires.
I can't speak for the private sector equivalents of this government agency.
Let's assume this agency provides an actual necessary service to society (I'll grant that MANY bureaucratic positions are superfluous and are just someone's created busy-work). If it does, there are two problems with their hiring practices - a great many vocationally-skilled workers are being immediately dismissed for jobs they are well-qualified for, and highly educated engineers are being taken out of a competitive market where their earning potential and job satisfaction would be much greater. They'd actually be using the degree.
Now, the government is attempting to play with the free market by hiring beyond what is actually required; by attracting workers from the educated set, they're denying the workforce a shot at minds that could render the government agency's purpose moot, but that's a different post for a different website altogether.
What I'm getting at, though, is that there are MANY MANY MANY people who either a) don't need to be in college, or b) don't need to earn graduate degrees. Our society needs mechanics, farmers/harvesters, grocery store clerks, cooks, and any number of other "blue collar" workers. But by requiring degrees for jobs that require hands-on skill and experience more than classroom lectures and fancy calligraphied papers, we're denying ourselves a healthy workforce.
So many horrible implications in that.
Our society needs the highly trained engineers, doctors, scientists, etc., I'm not denying that at all. We just also need the infrastructure types as well. Not everyone is cut out for college, or cut out for med school or high-level engineering programs.
Finally, I may not be at my fullest "earning potential" and I may have "wasted" five years in college because I spent all that time studying what happened at Gettysburg and reading The Peloponnesian War, but I think it's subjective. Will I go get a master's? I might, if we can afford it and I feel like it will enhance what I do. I got a degree because I wanted to learn to think on a deeper level, and I enjoyed the subject - not simply to get a bigger paycheck.
37. Sarah22 had the following to say on Mar 27 at 3:19 PM:
BDB: I've come to realize that you are incapable of having a logical back-and-forth conversation with anyone as you avoid responding to 99% of what people say and continue to spout out your own "facts" that tend to never even respond to what the other person has stated...as it is, you and I are having two completely different discussions so I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. Mine is that education in general is a massive false idol in this country, many people are led astray in thinking that their self worth should be wrapped up in how many degrees they hold and are taught to forget trusting God, you’ll never make it without a Master’s degree. They are told to rack up massive debt in order to obtain said degrees and rarely to stop and count the cost. My original point was that young women who know they want to be a SAHM someday should not be fooled into thinking that getting an expensive four or six year degree in the meantime is a great idea, even if they never work a single day after graduating it will be vital to being a wife and mother and therefore not a waste.
38. BDB had the following to say on Mar 27 at 5:02 PM:
Sarah22 (#37) wrote:
>>many people are led astray in thinking that their self worth should be wrapped up in how many degrees they hold and are taught to forget trusting God, you’ll never make it without a Master’s degree.<<
The proper preparation for any field does not negate following God's calling. Frankly, 10 years ago I thought a Master of Divinity was way too much for a pastor - I had always attended churches that seemed to do just fine with pastors who just went to Bible college.
When I actually learned everything that went into the degree (Bible, counseling, practical experience in a church setting, etc.) it made a lot more sense why so much work was required. The reality is that people bring so many needs to a pastor that it would take a couple of decades to develop the experience to handle all the possible situations. Extensive study before hand helps people not make serious mistakes.
One of the most convincing arguments I ever heard in class had to do with accounting fraud. The professor asked if there were any Controllers or accounting executives. He then asked, "If you discover fraud, how long do you have before you have to report it?" The answer: about 10 minutes.
The professor shrugged and said, "That's why you're getting an MBA. When you're faced with a serious decsion, you don't have time to go research he answer. You must decide on the right course of action and do it immediately."
The exact same thing can happen with a nursing supervisor, a school principal, a pastor - there will be times when someone comes to you and you must decide immediately. The way to be ready for the decision is to prepare in advance - much as David trained his fighting men in advance, and Daniel trained in literature an knowledge in advance.
39. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 27 at 5:17 PM:
So long as people are talking about varying levels of education and jobs...and perhaps this is too off-topic, but it's something I'd like to learn more about...
Have anyone seen any interesting (and ideally effective) strategies at bringing people who are from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds together (could relate to neighborhoods, housing, social/volunteer activities, work, etc.)?
Just something I'm interested in. Not to make it things too off-topic, but just in case people have ideas they could be interesting to contemplate and potentially implement as individuals or church communities...
40. James had the following to say on Mar 27 at 6:47 PM:
The great thing about an engineering degree is that you generally DON'T need your masters to get promoted or get in at all. Your BS in Eng, and some interning experience is what a potential employer is looking for in a new grad: and that is a compentent engineer who is not yet specialized and can thus have his competence and intelligence applied at where the company needs him as an engineer. The new grad is moldable and flexible and willing to adapt.
For engineers, instead of trade school, they go to college. The effect is the same: highly paid, highly skilled "tradesmen." The thing with engineers is that we ARE tradesmen of a sort. Except instead of build THINGS, we design them. But trust me, we're often as much journeymen of our field as journeymen pipe fitters, carpenters, etc. are in theirs. And, that's ironic, b/c many engineers also have or learn such skills as well.
Engineers are such from birth. The education merely equips us with what we need to work. Just like a tradesman has that mindset from his youth, it's just that the tradeschool gives him the tools necessary to accomplish his work (by tools, I mean the mental ones....SKILLS).
41. tom had the following to say on Mar 27 at 8:02 PM:
No one has yet talked about long-term job satisfaction. It's all just getting hired and earning money.
I've been in publishing for more than 20 years, and I've conducted job interviews with many, many the lawyer, engineer and even M.D. who hated what he was doing and decided, mid-life, that he wanted to be a writer or something similar that fulfilled his soul, not just his pocketbook.
What do you love to do? What gives that little tickle in the belly when you think about doing it? God put that desire in your soul. Follow it.
42. Loris had the following to say on Mar 28 at 7:11 AM:
I have a BA in Engish from what I'll call the Little School on the Big Hill. (Carrie knows what I'm talking about.) I dearly wish that I had minored in business or computers, even though I have no interest in either of those things. I am being trained to be a technical writer now, and the tech part is hard for me. On the other hand, this is an excellent line of work that I would recommend for us artsy/literary types who do not necessarily want to teach.
I agree with BDB that in many/most cases, if you want an office or lab job, you need a BA to get your foot in the door for an interview, and an MA if you want to actually use your skills. My husband is running up against this right now. He has 5 Microsoft certifications and two years of Network Admin experience, but because he has no BS in IT/CS, he cannot get an interview for the jobs he has the skills to perform. This seems unfair, but that's the way it is these days.
43. Julia had the following to say on Mar 28 at 8:51 AM:
This is a shout out to all you engineers and female geeks like me. There sure seems to be a lot of us on here eh! Oh, and being an engineer does not make you a poor manager or a poor communicator. That is such a an unfair stereotype. Just have a look at how many large corporations are run by people with engineering degrees. I think you will be suprised.
Despite my geekiness, I do not think a degree is necessary for anyone. In fact, with fewer student loans and 4 more years to work, those with skilled trades have excellent opportunities to support a family and "get ahead."
Also, making a lot of money does not make you successful. Being content and following the Lord's leading in your life is what makes you a success.
I agree that having a degree can be useful to a SAHM, but it is far from necessary. A high school diploma and hard work can open doors to plenty of jobs if that becomes necessary. The internet and local libraries are great resources for learning home-related skills, helping with homework, and understanding forms and such. My mother-in-law is a genius with taxes, finding the best vacation deals, cooking, gardening, dressmaking and has started up several successful businesses all while being a SAHM and she didn't need a degree to do any of that.
I wish that Boundless would be a bit less geared towards the university-educated crowd. There are a lot more twenty-somethings with skilled trades or no post-secondary than those with.
Despite the prevelance of blatently anti-Christian sentiment at most universities, there are far more organizations such as Campus Crusade available to students than there are to the less-educated. I get upset when I realize how many Christians look down on people who haven't gone on to get a degree.
We should remember that there is nothing in the Bible that mandates higher education.
Also, in Alberta, Canada, there are thousands of jobs for skilled and unskilled trades paying a LOT more than jobs anywhere else in North America. If any of you are looking for good, stable employment and having trouble, come to Canada. Its a wee bit chilly in the winter but its actually pretty fantastic up here.
44. IMO had the following to say on Mar 28 at 12:43 PM:
BDB, you said that, "...there will be times when someone comes to you and you must decide immediately. The way to be ready for the decision is to prepare in advance - much as David trained his fighting men in advance, and Daniel trained in literature an knowledge in advance."
SAHMs have to do just that--make quick decisions, and do so under varying pressure. My conclusion, therefore...SAHMs ARE special (truly, no tongue in cheek here)...Mothers have a God-given ability to raise children! No advanced degree necessary!
45. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:23 PM:
IMO (#44) wrote:
>>Mothers have a God-given ability to raise children! No advanced degree necessary!<<
You're right, graduate school isn't necessarily the best training for motherhood.
At the same time, there are lots of poor parents out there. One of the organizations I volunteer with works regularly with children in the foster care system. It's stunning to me when I see the poor choices some parents make, and the impact that has on their children.
In a previous generation, one of the things my grandmother did was run the Extension Homemakers in Washington State. They taught homemaking skills to women who didn't learn them from their parents. At that time they were teaching things like nutrition, gardening, sewing, canning produce, child care, etc. It was a great example of how education was used to help people develop skills that they didn't get from their parents - but skills they needed to successfully run a household. A while back this blog was discussing a degree program offered by a seminary, apparently for the wives of future pastors, which combined a core Biblical Studies program with some courses on home economics. That kind of degree program is perfect for someone who will go on to teach the kind of homemaking courses my grandmother used to teach young mothers.
You see another widespread example in the current mortgage crisis. There is much hand-wringing right now about what to do for the "victims." But frankly, the "victims" of predatory lending are people who don't know enough about the world of finance and economics to know what they are signing.
With my education background I have no excuse to not know. So I avoided the mortgage brokers, including several friends of mine, who were selling unwise products. I went with a rather conservative mortgage lender. They still offered some exotic mortgage products, but I stopped them and pointed out that they were being irresponsible pushing such products, and asked them to limit their suggestions to 30-year fixed mortgages. The result is I bought a smaller house than many people. But it was the responsible thing to do.
Any of the "victims" of predatory lending could have taken the time to educate themselves. During the entire housing boom their were voices ranging from the Wall Street Journal down to basic financial planners who knew this stuff was irresponsible. Heck, a lot of these foreclosures are rentals that speculators bought as 2nd homes - the lenders should not be bailed out for allowing that.
Not everyone needs an advanced degree in financial engineering - those are the guys who created these collateralized debt obligations and created the mortgage bundle. There's too many times when I read about some people in a church who lost their life savings in some kind of investment scam to another church member. Every person - and parent - needs to know enough about business and economics to know when someone is offering something that is too good to be true - whether a home loan or an investment deal that's guaranteed to make them rich.
46. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:40 PM:
Rachael (#39) wrote:
>>Have anyone seen any interesting (and ideally effective) strategies at bringing people who are from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds together <<
Interestingly enough, my church stumbled on this in part by having a casual dress code. With everyone in jeans, no one realized that we had everyone from welfare recipients to top executives attending. I've attended other non-denominational churches where people wore expensive suits, and you could tell who had money.
This came into focus when my church home group spent an evening volunteering at our church food warehouse. There were some regular volunteers there, working hard. We did some one-time things. And at the end of the evening, some of those regular volunteers took home boxes of food for their families. Looking at them, I never would have known that they were in a place where they needed assistance, but clearly they were willing to work hard for it.
47. IMO had the following to say on Mar 28 at 2:46 PM:
BDB, those homemaker classes sound like a great idea! I want in.
48. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 3:06 PM:
Michelle Samuelson (#36) wrote:
>>Our society needs mechanics, farmers/harvesters, grocery store clerks, cooks, and any number of other "blue collar" workers.<<
These are some great examples of how the structure of the economy is changing from previous generations. I too am concerned about what we can do for those who would be miserable sitting in an office all day. But the world is still changing:
My grandparents and previous generations were farmers. Property taxes forced many farmers off their land, and most farming in the U.S. is now done by multi-million dollar businesses. Interestingly, as part of that transition, my uncle got his degree in agribusiness and worked for one of them. He was responsible for 500,000 chickens (starter pullets.)
Harvesters: Recently in California we've had a problem of not enough people to harvest crops, so they end up rotting in the fields. This is something that most Americans wouldn't consider doing. I picked berries during the summers growing up; but even then it was only us neighborhood kids; everyone else spoke a different language. And frankly, many of the migrant workers worked so hard that the owners constantly told us that they didn't need us if we couldn't keep up with them - though the American kids picked cleaner than the immigrants did. We had a lot fewer leaves and unripe berries in our buckets. I think some engineer has designed a machine to pick blueberries now. Lettuce, not so much.
Store Clerks: I recently bought a fax/copier/printer at Office Depot. A few days later I saw it for $100 less at Costco. For a moment I thought of returning the Office Depot one. But I reminded myself that the clerk at Office Depot had taken the time to educate me on which model would meet my needs best; he had earned the price differential. But lots of people don't feel that way. They want to get their information for free and then buy from a place like Costco where the clerks don't know the products. The kids at Target are friendly, but I don't bother asking them for suggestions.
Mechanics: Ford originally designed a car that a man could repair himself. Today, Toyota and Honda focus on building a car that never needs maintenance. Very different engineering philosophies - work is shifted from a mechanic that fixes things to an engineer that designs things that don't need to be fixed. In many industries, nothing is "fixed" anymore. Parts are simply swapped out when they stop working. I remember a story from 15 years ago when a missionary hit something and got a flat tire, bending the rim of the tire. In the U.S., they'd just buy a new one. They were someplace in Eastern Europe, and a guy fixed the rim overnight - with a hammer. Tapped it right back into shape.
Manufacturing: It's true that the people with advanced degrees at the Big 3 automakers made a number of horrid marketing decisions. They were the ones who decided to turn out bad products. Clearly American workers can do things well. Toyota is now the 4th largest U.S. auto maker. All V-6 Honda Accords are built in Ohio. But the job has changed. Instead of riveting things on by hand, a factory worker programs a robot designed by an engineer. And from what I've read, most of those factory jobs require people to be pretty good at math.
At least they don't have to work in an office.
49. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 3:11 PM:
IMO (#47) wrote:
>>BDB, those homemaker classes sound like a great idea! I want in.<<
I did do this. Probably my grandmother's influence: I took a cooking class when I was 10. That's when I discovered that you just read the recipe. But someone had to teach me how to read all the measurements. My mom sure didn't do it.
Didn't stop me from mixing up flour and confectioner's sugar once. Those were very interesting cookies.
50. Rachael had the following to say on Mar 28 at 3:33 PM:
BDB,
Interesting about the dress code idea. I think that's one argument in support of the implementation of uniforms in schools. Never heard about a church doing it, though. My guess is that even w/ jeans you could tell who has money, but still it probably does eliminate some of the noticable fashion differences inevitable come with 'fancy' church attire.
51. BDB had the following to say on Mar 28 at 4:44 PM:
Rachael (#50) wrote:
>>My guess is that even w/ jeans you could tell who has money, <<
Well, yes. Eventually some people climb into their Lexus SUV that they're leasing...
One problem is the idea that "The one with the gold makes the rules," so that the one who donates the most money gets to make all the decisions. This can become a huge point of friction in an organization that mixes people of different economic background.
There is something that Kiwanis and other social clubs do to even the playing field: they hold fundraisers for their activities. Sometimes individuals, especially those in sales, realize that they could spend the same time out selling and make quite a bit more money. But others in government or salaried jobs don't have that opportunity. But if they all spend 10 hours at a pancake feed, then they can all be equal decision-makers about what to do with the proceeds. A church could do the same thing by requiring all volunteers in a ministry who want to make decisions to participate in the fundraising activities.