Singles at the Kids Table: Episode #5
by Motte Brown on 02/25/2008 at 4:00 PM
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Of course, people shouldn't generalize about anyone or any group. But still, it does seem to be a problem. So download this week's The Boundless Show for a lively discussion that just may save you from being relegated to kids table this Easter.
We also have Patrick Dunn, the guy from down the hall, with this week's The Hungry Years explaining how wonderfully compatible guys and girls are despite our differences. I mean, so what if all guys like to talk about is how cool it would be if we could shoot lasers from our eyes?
Our Q&A segment (aka "The Inbox") delves into a gray area of spiritual compatibility -- differences in preferences of worship styles. The questioner, David, asks how much weight should be given to these "peripheral" issues when deciding whom to marry. Steve, Ted and I tag team this one.
I think you'll enjoy the bumper music this week provided by Jesse Butterworth of Daily Planet fame and Jeff Caylor. And for your convenience, here are the segment breaks:
Intro
Roundtable -- 5:16
Hungry Years -- 20:24
The Inbox -- 25:00
You can subscribe to the show on iTunes or with RSS. Also be sure and tell your friends about us or send them a link to the show. And as always, we appreciate your feedback and questions for The Inbox segment. You can write us at editor@boundless.org.
1. SHL said the following at 7:03 PM on Feb 25:
I was pleased that you addressed the question about spiritual compatibility. However, I was not pleased with the comments at the end about the “freakier” side of Christianity (barking like dogs, rolling on the ground, and snake handling, though snake handling was dismissed). I felt that the tone was mocking. The rest of your answer was helpful, though.
2. Ted Slater said the following at 8:59 PM on Feb 25:
SHL -- I have good news for you: You totally misunderstood. I was mocking nobody.
My mentioning "barking dogs, rolling on the ground" and so on was in context of my having just mentioned Jonathan Edwards's book, "Treatise Concerning Religious Affections." (Someone else at the table mentioned "snake handling" -- that's something entirely different from what I was talking about.)
Edwards wrote the book in response to the variety of unusual ways that people were responding to spiritual experiences during The Great Awakening. During revival meetings, for example, people barked, people jerked back and forth, people would fall down, people would dance, people would laugh, people would weep.
And such unusual expressions were not just something seen at tent meetings. Sometimes when Edwards's wife would ponder the Lord's love, for example, she would enter into a trance-like state that would last for quite a while.
While Edwards didn't consider such expressions to *necessarily* result from encounters with God, he didn't dismiss them entirely.
On the other hand, Edwards *was* suspicious of the spiritual state of those who remained unaffected by God's gracious love.
"Religious Affections" really is a very helpful book for those wrestling with the ways we emotionally respond to truth about God.
It disturbs me, SHL, that you'd assume I was being disrespectful toward anyone whose response to an encounter with God is unexpected. I mock nobody's reaction to God. Just the opposite: I respect those who, to quote from Edwards, "have their religious affections raised to an extraordinary pitch" as a result of a true encounter with the Lord.
3. John D. said the following at 7:40 AM on Feb 26:
Unusual behaviors were not unknown in Jonathan Edwards' day, nor in ours. Similar manifestations have been associated with the Toronto Blessing as well as the Brownsville Revival in Pensacola, Florida.
Let's remember what Scripture says about worship:
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. I Corinthians 14:33
and
Let all things be done decently and in order. I Corinthians 14:40
The same Spirit who said "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace" is the same Spirit who -- allegedly -- is driving the extreme dancing, fainting, barking, drunken-like behaviors that occur in extreme Charismatic worship. I don't believe those behaviors could be called decent and in order.
In order to inspire people to chaotic behavior, the Spirit would have to contradict Himself.
4. BB said the following at 8:39 AM on Feb 26:
The reading is always pretty stereotypical and for the most part wrong. Yes, men and women are different but seriously, not all men are dumb kids in grown up bodies. This is like saying all single men sit in their parent's basement playing xbox all day.
Yes, the last thing my friends and I talked about was planning a ski trip but before that we discussed the interviews one of our friends was going through and how we could keep him in our prayers. Also, one of the guys is serving but is out of town due to work therefore we discussed how we could help cover his position when he was unable to make it.
It seems most singles ministries focus on the immature single and forget the hard working single servant type out there who are starving for guidance and encouragement. It's often discouraging that most people say that if you are single and in your late 20s, you are part of the immature crowd because any responsible man at that age would be married. "For I know the plans I have for you" says God and not us. Maybe being a responsible single is God's will at this moment. Maybe there is a large demographic of unbelieving singles who would rather be in bars and not in the church. Maybe they can only be reached by seeing one can be responsible and single. Or there might be a group out there who puts their priorities in job and finances. They don't have time for a relationship including one with God. Wouldn't they be better reached by the MANY responsible single men in the same life stage over the married man who they can not relate to at all?
Just a few thoughts. Your reactions?
5. SHL said the following at 10:21 AM on Feb 26:
Thanks for your response, Ted. I did misunderstand. Keep up the great work with the podcasts.
6. Ted Slater said the following at 11:04 AM on Feb 26:
John D. -- I appreciate your concern for orderliness. That is a biblical directive.
At the same time, Scripture is clear that when people encounter God, they sometimes do odd things. People sometimes lost the ability to remain standing, for example (see John 18:6). Paul expressed gratefulness that he spoke in non-human languages -- a lot (see 1 Cor. 14:18). Once, the early Christians were gathered together, and something really strange happened: wind, tongues of fire, strange languages -- people thought they were ... drunk!
And then there's Moses: After he had spent time with God, his face, in the words of the famous Christmas song -- "you could even say it glowed." After hearing from the Lord, one man cut off all his hair, including his beard, one-third of which he chopped up all around town, one-third of which he burned, and one-third of which he scattered in the wind. Another man lay prostate on a dead boy; after doing this three times the boy came back to life.
At the return of the Ark, King David put on a "linen ephod" and acted so bizarrely that his wife became embarrassed; he shouted and leaped around and danced. Yikes! Can you imagine how silly Dr. Dobson would appear if he were to yell and hop around because of something the Lord was doing? He'd be dismissed as a disorderly whacko.
Jump ahead to Jonathan Edwards's preaching of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." The congregation's reaction? "[W]idespread weeping, swooning, crying out, and convulsions...."
These are unusual behaviors. I'd argue that we should be cautious not to dismiss how people express themselves when interacting with the Lord. Sometimes the actions are of the flesh, yes, or even from the devil. But sometimes they're truly an admitedly awkward, though legitimate, response to an experience with an unfathomable God. That's why I pointed out Jonathan Edwards's "Religious Affections" -- he holds a very balanced view of all this, in my opinion.
Scripture seems to allow for both unusual behavior *and* orderly worship. There's a great discussion to be had here -- how can a service be both orderly and allow for unexpected responses to engagements with God?
7. John said the following at 11:31 AM on Feb 26:
Ted,
Exactly. How do we allow the spirit to move while not moving ourselves (in the flesh)?
This has been my main complaint about the 3 up beat, 3 slow beat repetitious styles of most churches.
It's highly orderly, BUT where's the allowance for the spontaneity of the Spirit?
8. Childless single woman said the following at 12:06 PM on Feb 26:
BB: Yes, God does say: "For I know the plans I have for you".
But that follows an instruction to: "Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease." (And that's even before praying for the peace and prosperity of the city they are in!)
With regard to your comment about the single Christian men outreaching to their single male peers in the world, I see two problems with this:
1) The single Christian men do not seem willing or able (but mainly willing) to do it.
2) To the single men in the world, the single Christian men do not appear to have a lifestyle that they wish to emulate, and are not the salt and light they should be. A celibate, virginal life in their late 20s? Not many takers I should imagine. However, the married men do have a lifestyle that most single men in the world actually aspire to, even if they are slightly reluctant to admit it.
9. Sara said the following at 1:39 PM on Feb 26:
John: it's in pentecostal assemblies and quaker meetings.
At the Baptist church I grew up in, a new pastor we had actually demonstrated for us and instructed us on how to lift our hands in the air, palms forward, and sway lightly to a praise hymn medley. It was a very awkward three minutes.
10. Ted Slater said the following at 3:40 PM on Feb 26:
Sara -- you're not implying that we shouldn't use our bodies during times of engagement with God, right? Sometimes it's helpful -- even necessary -- for someone to model such physical engagement.
Here's a question: Why are we instructed in Psalm 95:6 to kneel in worship? Why are we instructed in Psalm 63:4 to lift up our hands in worship? Why are we instructed in Psalm 150:4 to dance in worship?
There does seem to be a connection between our physical position and behavior and our heart-level worship of the Lord. Almost as if the bowing of our bodies before the Lord affects the bowing of our hearts before Him.
And sometimes it takes encouragement from others to engage in such worshipful expressions. Though it may be awkward, I see nothing necessarily wrong with that.
11. BB said the following at 5:01 PM on Feb 26:
@Childless single woman
Comment 1: I'm sorry you feel this way. Maybe you are just in the wrong church community. There are many men like myself would would marry but haven't found some one yet.
Comment 2: I think you have the wrong perspective here. It's not about having something they desire but being in the places they would be. How many married men do you see in coffee shops or eating out like single men do? Did you forget that it is not us that draws them but the Holy Spirit's tug on their hearts? Think of when Peter first made his confession that Jesus was God. Jesus responded by this was not because of seeing the miracles and logically coming to that conclusion. It was "not by man but by the Father in Heaven" therefore they may not have a wife for that man to desire but something much better.
In conclusion, I say if you can get married, do but if you are single, serve. You are in a unique place in your life where you have the time and resources to help others that would be unavailable otherwise.
12. Sara said the following at 5:32 PM on Feb 26:
Ted, it's just this time in particular was really weird. 'Woulda hadda bin there'.
Unfortunately, humans being what they are, spontaneous acts like saying 'amen' and raising your arms when that's not 'normal' in a service often have the effect of singularizing the person doing them.
There's real grace in those non-Protestant traditions that include bowing when entering the sanctuary, and kneeling, and kissing the Bible, and crossing oneself. That those actions are traditional lets people do them without standing out or distracting other people.
I don't think any of those Psalms are instructions. They're invitations and exclaimations in the context of great feeling. The feeling came first.
I'm no fan of cognitive behaviour therapy-type stuff like being instructed to smile when you're feeling sad because the act of smiling will make you feel better. Lots of people are OK with that kind of thing, though.
13. Al said the following at 6:49 PM on Feb 26:
C.S. Lewis also makes the same observation Ted does-- that sometimes physical action and posture free and impel us to emotion-- and that our spirits respond to our postures just as often as emotion can propel us to action. I've experienced a bit of this personally, too.
He was also a fan of the sorts of expressions, some of which were outright weird, that he saw in Eastern Orthodox congregations for what it's worth.
14. Mark said the following at 7:44 PM on Feb 26:
The comments about singles serving and age segregation in the church are intriguing.
I'm a member of a church that regularly draws about 200-250 people to its weekly worship services. Last fall, I hadn't even finished the new member course before I was asked to serve on a search committee that is trying to hire a new staff member. I was honored and kind of overwhelmed by the request. Before that I was part of a church plant and I filled several different roles while that was taking off.
I also attend a small group/young adult fellowship at large non-denominational church. The singles ministry is pretty well run and the small group leaders (volunteers) put a lot of work in to preparing lessons, getting to know group members and developing a sense of community. My opinion is that churches of this size rely somewhat less on volunteers and having a larger pool of people (and staff) to draw from. Smaller churches will take whomever is around in order to try to keep things afloat. (Please forgive the sweeping generalities here.)
Now, here's the rub: young, single adults attract more young, single adults. One of the things I've considered when looking for a church is how many people like me are around. Seeing none, I've considered going to the local mega-church to find some. What happens is like a human reverse osmosis--we migrate to the area of higher concentration of singles. Again, this doesn't hold true for every church or every person, but the church misses out on fresh ideas and an opportunity to develop young leaders. At the same time we lose out on really getting involved on the ground level and being able to find older, wiser Christians to learn from.
15. Leah said the following at 10:06 PM on Feb 27:
I'm at work atm so can't listen, but I'm looking forward to it... my fiance and I are opposite ends of that spectrum (me, a presbyterian, and he, from the pentecostal assemblies of God). We are comfortable with each other's worship styles, but are still struggling with choosing the church we will plug into as a couple. Should be a good listen. But be warned, if you mock pentecostals, I will get cranky. Very much so.
16. Rachael said the following at 10:32 PM on Feb 28:
Thank you for this podcast. My guess is that if a young single person is initially negatively stereotyped, that that image would likely be broken or softened as the other person(s) start to see fruit and get to know him or her more.
As for the 'kids table' :)-- my mom's side of relatives definitely have a concept of this. There generally tends to be a split of the areas (bigger table, kids table and/or other area). As of this month, the youngest grandchild (not great-grandchild) is an adult, though. So, I suppose we've grown up :). Sometimes there is some intermixing of 'adult adults' and 'adult kids'... And the 'kids' aren't all unmarried. I don't mind being with the adult kids; they're cool. :)
As for thought that people in Colorado running or owning a dog...hey, I also noticed that people tend to do those things in my city (not in CO) as well! Different from my life in suburbia...or maybe just because there's more homes closer together and because there's a nearby dog park...hmmm....interesting, anyway.
As for spiritual compatibility...it's good to think of it, especially for people who are dating. I guess I have to cross that bridge if I come to it. Would be willing to compromise on some things but ideally it would be amazingly wonderful if the other person had a deep hunger for and knowledge of the Word of God. I should seek to grow in these regards and seek to gain more of the character traits and growth I'd love to see in a spouse.
Theory vs. practice...hmmm...theory is easier...