Making Good Choices By Simply Choosing
by Motte Brown on 02/22/2008 at 11:24 AM
Mark Dever has written an excellent blog to help free Christians from "the bondage of 'guidance.'" He says that though Christ has given us freedom and liberty in decision making, and the Scriptures and wise counselors to provide direction, many Christians won't make a move unless they receive a "sense of leading" from God.
Here Mark uses a personal example to illustrate how freedom and subjective leading, informed by Scripture and wise counsel, can work together to help us make good choices:
I do believe that God's Spirit will sometimes lead us subjectively. So, for instance, I am choosing to spend my life here on Capitol Hill because my wife & I sensed in 1993 that that is what God wanted us to do. However, I realized then (and now) that I could be wrong about that supposition. ... I was free in 1993 to stay in England, or teach at a seminary, either of which would have been delightful opportunities. I understand that I was free to make those choices. But I chose, consulting Scripture, friends, wisdom, and my own subjective sense of the Lord's will, to come to DC. And even if I were wrong about that, I had (and have) that freedom in Christ to act in a way that is not sin. And I understand my pastoring here not to be sin. So I am free. Regardless of the sense of leading I had.
You would think that Mark's fruitful ministry at Capitol Hill Baptist would prove to confirm his decision. And it does to an extent. But he realizes that had he chose instead to do one of the many things he could have done, a fruitful ministry could (and probably would) have resulted as well.
Now let's apply this to choosing a wife (c'mon, you knew I was going there). If the girl you're dating meets the following biblical criteria -- which has similarities with how Mark chose to go to DC -- then beware the bondage of "guidance."
1) You are both members of the opposite sex
2) You are both believers evidenced by signs of regeneration
3) Your Christian friends bear witness to your edifying relationship
4) Your Christian parents believe it to be a good match
1. Chris B. (VA) said the following at 11:56 AM on Feb 22:
Great post, but regarding point number four, what would you recommend doing if one or more parents is not a Christian? And what if all they will offer in the way of permission is to say "it's your decision"?
2. Motte said the following at 12:17 PM on Feb 22:
Chris B. (VA):
I think in those cases you depend more heavily on the mature Christians in your life. And if you don't have any, seek them out. You're definitely going to need their objectivity when faced with such an emotional decision.
3. bette lee said the following at 12:37 PM on Feb 22:
Regarding one's advisors: Friends and councelors can contradict, or give their misguided opinions. Judge their "wisdom" wisely, keeping in mind their fallibility.
Also, I believe Scripture puts equal weight on the guidance of Christian and non-Christian parents: see 1 Cor. 7, where the fathers have control regardless.
4. Derek Wong said the following at 12:44 PM on Feb 22:
I think that this is a great point! I've often encountered fellow Christians who constantly refuse to make a decision because they say that they need to pray about it. Part of me thinks that they are just avoiding the actual decision (if the choices are both valid and neither has things going against it).
5. Victoria said the following at 3:52 PM on Feb 22:
So what if you have numbers 1-3, and support from older godly Christian couples at your church, but your non Christian parents say no?
6. Shanda said the following at 4:10 PM on Feb 22:
I agree with and appreciate this insight. I've struggled through learning this in recent years and months. I think that many believers, myself included, have far too often used a lack of specific leading to keep us from moving forward and taking risks. Sometimes God just wants us to make a choice and GO! He's not always going to give us a bolt of lightning signaling which way. If we are walking intimately with Him and honestly seeking to please Him in all we do, there are often many GOOD choices that we can make in any given situation. In fact, the closer we walk with Him, the MORE good choices will be available to us.
7. Tara said the following at 8:07 AM on Feb 23:
I think I'm going to be the fly in the ointment and say that I disagree to a certain extent. While I do agree that God doesn't send us bolts of lightning or burning bushes to let us know which way to take I believe that He does have certain things/paths He calls us to take. Sometimes it can be a general calling (like to be a missionary) or to something more specific (to be a missionary in, say, Russia).
We definately have to do our parts and make our own decisions in where we think God is leading us. It's taking that "step of faith" but I truly believe that if we're going in God's direction He will always provide the next stepping stone. My mom would call it "God opening doors". I've seen God work out amazing things in the lives of my friends and my own life that there is no way we can credit our decision-making skills alone.
In response to comment #4: yes, it is very sad to see prayer used as an excuse not to make a decision or take action. But let's not forget how important it is to pray for any major decision we make. I think the "prayer for guidance" should happen but be a brief period. Once I come to a decision I still pray, asking God to open the doors if my actions fall under His will, and if not, for Him to show me another way. So I trust that if things work out that what I'm doing is pleasing to Him. Granted, there are times when I suppose there are several different paths that could fall under that but other times I do think God has one path in store for us. And utlimately there is just one path/calling: to bring His followers into closer fellowship with Him.
I definately used to be one of those waiting for a sign but I've since learned signs erase our need for trust and faith. Yet I am cautious in switching to the other side completely. Pray, take action, pray some more and trust that you're exactly where God wants you to be. This principle can be applied to dating too. It's been working for me. ;)
8. Sabrina said the following at 6:13 PM on Feb 23:
I agree with Tara (#7). Although I used to desire and believe that God would provide a sign in the sky or somehow just let me know who my future husband would be, I have learned that He doesn't always do that. However, that hasn't taken the authority for decisions in my life away from Him and placed it on me. Some people may say, "God has given us a brain and expects us to use it. He wants us to be responsible followers not weak dependents." But I disagree. I have learned through circumstances that God wants us to rely on Him for all of our source. He is the vine and we are the branches. A branch that is not continualy abiing in the vine for ALL of it's food and provision is dead! I seek God's direction for every decision I make, and as Tara said, if he opens the doors and provides repeated confirmation I trust and believe that is His will. Many times I have seen impossible doors open in my and others life. God will come through. He will show Himself.
9. Childless single woman said the following at 6:40 PM on Feb 23:
"So I trust that if things work out that what I'm doing is pleasing to Him."
I remember hearing a sermon once on the book of Jonah, and the pastor pointed out how it just so happened that there was a ship ready to take Jonah in the opposite direction to the way God had told him. So I think the "if things work out" therefore it is pleasing to God, needs to be treated with caution.
Similarly, if things don't work out, I don't think we can be sure that it wasn't God's will (although we can be sure that God will ultimately work everything for the good).
10. Fred said the following at 11:12 PM on Feb 23:
Sabrina (Comment 8),
Did you ask God what you should wear today? Did you ask Him what shoes to wear, what colour socks etc.?
God is our source but do you really think He wants us to ask Him about every single decision we make? We should live in submission to God's will but that doesn't mean we have to ask God about every single decision we make. We don't have to ask because we are walking with God and living in submission to Him.
11. Rachael said the following at 11:29 PM on Feb 23:
I agree with CSW (9)'s last line. Though God can also make things not work out so that we do what He wants (as in Jonah's case).
Remember "Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart." (Psalm 37:4) If we allow our minds to be transformed to His word, and find our delight in Him, I think He will open doors and can shape our desires to be in line with what He desires. You may be interested to check out John MacArthur's thoughts on the matter: http://www.gty.org/Resources/issues/603.
However, it's easier to believe that we should seek to be transformed by Scripture than to actually do it. The importance of spending time with God in prayer and in His word should not be undervalued in this process (though by practice I often do).
God's will is not always clear. In a recent verse (Lev. 24:12) discovery, the words "till the will of the LORD should be clear to them" lept out at me. I don't recall any other passage explicitly worded in this way (though there definitely could be). It was just interesting to me. Still, I'd agree with Sabrina (8) in that there's not always the "sign in the sky." God still guides, though, even though from our limited human minds, it may often appear as though *we* are the ones making the decisions. Can we make decisions contrary to what God wants? Yes. But somehow God works all things for the good for those He has called and who love him (Rom 8:28).
On a more personal note, I wonder about a big decision I made a few years ago. And I wonder if a particular circumstance was a warning to me because it was so unexpected, and because of it I had to jump through some hoops to pursue the decision. However, I still went through with the decision, and I'm not sure it was what God desired because it was at a time when I was in a relationship that was probably wrong for me to be in, and I think that relationship affected my decision at least in part. However, I think the decision led to an experience which was a stepping stone for later jobs and further education, and I trust that God works all for the good, even if it was a sinful or partially sinful decision. Ultimately everything is under His control. Still, we should seek to be under His influence in our pursuits.
12. April said the following at 12:39 AM on Feb 24:
Childless: Yes, there just so happened to be a ship ready, but what was waiting for that ship? When God gives us a decision to make, He is not going to get rid of the possibility to make that decision; however, He can stop it. Besides, Jonah had made the wrong decision before he ever boarded the boat, and he would have tried to leave regardless. Seems to me, God was in control of everything involving that boat. First, He brought the storm. The storm led the sailors to draw lots to decide who the culprit was--these "just happened" to point to Jonah! Then, when Jonah was tossed off the boat, there was that giant fish doing the will of God waiting just for him. :) Things didn't seem to work out for Jonah until he repented and decided to do God's bidding. Furthermore, Jonah knew he was disobeying God from the start--God SPOKE to him, he didn't have an iffy decision to make. I'm not saying Jonah didn't have a hard decision to make; however, in this case, the correct decision was perfectly clear.
Off the subject--I hate using all caps for emphasis; is there a way to italicize?
Back to the subject--
Victoria: Having non-Christian parents deny their consent for marriage can be incredibly hard. However, God makes it clear in His Word that we are to obey our parents (not just the Christian ones). Besides, they may not have the spiritual wisdom one gets from God, but they are still your parents and do have experiential knowledge--they might see something about him that you don't. (I don't know if you were talking about you yourself--so this is hypothetical "you") My answer for this would be fervent prayer to God that if He intends you to marry this person, He will change the heart of your parents. Showing total lack of respect for them would only serve to push them farther away from God and destroy your witness toward them. Unless your parents are commanding that you do something that is sinful, obey them. This kind of situation is incredibly hard, but it can also be a way of leading people to the Lord because you will be actively, publicly yielding the fruits of the Spirit. Furthermore, it teaches you to lean even more on the Lord.
13. BDB said the following at 12:46 AM on Feb 24:
CSW wrote (#9):
>>it just so happened that there was a ship ready to take Jonah in the opposite direction to the way God had told him.<<
Oohhh...that's a good one.
Not every open door is one God has opened.
At the same time, if God is opening a door, it shouldn't be necessary to blow the door open with heavy weapons...
14. Farmer Pete said the following at 4:35 AM on Feb 24:
An excellent post. Two comments, if I may...
(1) I have observed that the idea that we are to be constantly guided by God in all things leads to absurdity if it does not lead to passivity. By this, I mean that people who believe that they[i]should[/i]be hearing from God but are not obviously doing so, start to believe that God uses all manner of faint and confusing means to [i]guide[/i] them. The end result is that they become ruled by their whims, emotions or random circumstance. Being guided by God becomes, not an exercise in obedience and blessing, but a guessing game based of cryptic and ephemeral clues. Some, like myself, give up. Others appear to conclude that being guided by God requires us to abandon wisdom, regardless of how frequently that commodity is commended in the scriptures.
Perhaps it is worth reminding people that the Almighty is quite capable of getting our attention if he so desires.
(2) I suggest that when we need to redefine or alter our understanding of language in order to support our doctrine, then a warning bell should sound in our minds.
May I point out that the normal way in which God has made us, is for maturity to include independence, responsibility and decision-making. It is therefore worrying that we - or some Christians - have altered the normal understanding of the way that God has made us to function, so that "maturity" as a Christian means the opposite. Less independence. Less decision making and less responsibility for our decisions.
I do not believe that this idea brings any glory to our God at all. Why should He be glorified by the spectacle of His disciples behaving less like functional adults, and more like immature juveniles?
In respect to guidance in the New Testament.... It has been argued that there is not one plain and obvious example in the NT, in which supernatural guidance was given in response to prayer. Can anyone refute this claim?
Farmer Pete
15. Suzanne said the following at 4:52 PM on Feb 24:
April (# 12):
This is how you italicize.
Before the word you want to put in italics, type this (without the spaces):
< I > phrase < / I >
and you end up with:
phrase
You can do the same to make something bold, only use B in place of the I.
Fun, isn't it?
16. BDB said the following at 10:18 PM on Feb 24:
Suzanne (#15) wrote:
Really?
17. Jennifer said the following at 11:32 AM on Feb 25:
First of all, I must say I never thought I'd hear a phrase like the bondage of guidance enter the evangelical lexicon! Much like Challies' bludgeoning with providence last year, it beautifully describes one of the unintended consequences of late 20th century charismatic/reformed teachings. Remember "Experiencing God", by Henry Blackaby? Hugely popular a few years ago, he taught that God regularly communicates "assignments" to his followers, and if you do not hear God speak "you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience."
Farmer Pete is absolutely right about the absurdity this kind of thinking leads to. I've noticed that it creates three streams:
The Passively Pious, who can't make a decision if their life depended on it, and are quite happy to indefinitely "waiting on the Lord". It masks a fear of taking risks.
The Brashly Certain, who seem to get "word from the Lord" on everything, from what to eat for breakfast, to what socks to wear. These are the people who love to write books with titles that use the phrase God's way, as in "Raising Kids God's Way". It justifies wishful thinking, and emboldens arrogance (God has rewarded me with a spouse, why not you?).
The Earnestly Uncertain who genuinely want to make decisions in their lives, but allow the first two to sow seeds of doubt in them. Underneath their "God pleasing", are issues with "people pleasing".
It seems as if much of modern church culture revolves around the dynamics between these three kinds of believers. And it has greatly affected evangelical attitudes towards mate finding, as exemplified in Don Raunikar's atrocious book Choosing God's Best, where he wrote: "Before you can determine whom to marry, you must first answer a preliminary question: Does God want you to marry anyone, ever? Or is His plan for you to remain single? Scripture teaches that marriage, like salvation, is an unmerited gift from God (Genesis 2:18). When God wanted Adam to have a wife, He brought her to him. Their marriage was a gift from God. But Scripture also tells us that singleness is God's gift as well."
So this is more than just a silly mental error on the behalf of individual believers trying to figure things out. This has infiltrated deeply into our teachings, not only to singles, but to everyone. But perhaps now we are taking a second look at them, as we look on with astonishment at their consequences. We seriously need to keep looking at this, folks.
PS to Suzanne: Now that you've give us these italics tips, perhaps I can stop unintentionally yelling at people! " I'll need a bit of practice, though!
18. Sarah P. said the following at 12:43 PM on Feb 25:
What an excellent post, on an important topic! This is especially difficult for those of us whom God has gifted in many areas. I would feel this tremendous sense of obligation, and then a curious question, "What in the world can I find to do that will use math, writing stories, languages, teaching, organizing, hospitality, leading...?" How do I decide if I'm supposed to attend grad school, and for what, if I am interesting in everything?
The story of Jonah is especially fascinating because it's not really about the man and his disobedience. It's about the fact that, if God wants something done, it's gonna happen eventually. If I get too off course, He'll send a whale. ;)
19. BDB said the following at 2:08 PM on Feb 25:
Needed to end italics.
20. Suzanne said the following at 6:13 PM on Feb 25:
So glad I could help everybody out. Can I count this as my good deed for the day?
21. Tara said the following at 7:29 PM on Feb 25:
I must admit I'm a little troubled that people seem to be seeing the debate as either or. I thought my post was looking for more of a balance but others seem to hear that I think God picks out our clothes and what we eat. :/ I think what's important to remember is God's will is always done. No matter how much individual choice each person actually has noone can thwart His overall purpose. Jonah could have gone willingly to Ninevah and we all know he chose to run away instead. But God wanted Ninevah to repent and nothing was going to stop Him from getting the warning out to the city. I'm not saying God always intervenes in each situation. Sometimes He lets us run away. He then moves on to someone else more willing to obey. Or He will use another way to accomplish His goal. But He's still in control. There's no need to resist that idea. It's not scary! Otherwise we could never have the confidence that He will create the new heaven and earth and abolish sin forever someday. But to have control over history in a general sense, does that not mean that God has to have some control over the individuals creating that history as well?
Listen, I'm not one of those who thinks God cares what socks I wear or even necessarily where I work. I don't think God comes down out of the clouds and speaks to me the way we do with each other. I even think we often are left to our own devises when it comes to life choices. But there are times in our lives that God lays things on our hearts and calls to us. It could be one aspect such as a conviction to pray for a specific person one day or something more encompassing like the call to ministry. I also don't know if God has one person in mind for us or not when it comes to dating but I trust that my boyfriend is the guy God wants me to be with. God didn't gift-wrap him and leave him on my doorstep either! I had to put the effort in to get to know him as a friend and then there was the asking for advice from friends and family and prayerful contemplation if his romantic pursuit of me was something I should allow. And it all started because I knew him to be a rational, Godly, and gentlemanly young man so I took a chance. I give the credit to God for making it all happen though because neither of us have been popular with the opposite sex at all and "finding" each other seems just short of miraculous. We also compliment each other very well. I like to focus on the more prayer-focused, experiential faith while he is very theologically & philosophically based. Often this causes friction but it forces us to look at our faith from both approaches which, in time, should only further enhance our view of God.
I hope my point is coming across. I'm not really sure it is. Basically, I see the Holy Spirit's influence in the decisions made by God's followers who are truly seeking His Will...whether we are concious of it at the time or not. Decision-making and God's Sovreignty are not mutually-exclusive in my mind but I have no idea how they co-exist. A conundrum, I suppose. Oh well. :)
22. BDB said the following at 9:06 PM on Feb 25:
Well, Motte, you're right, it seemed likely that the OP would be headed towards discussing marriage decisions being made faster. Elisabeth Elliot would agree with you - under those four conditions, they guy should have proposed. At the same time, your arguments apply equally well to women who don't even accept invitations to lunch without a "sign."
But as for guidance being as silly as you make it sound, I can't agree. Elisabeth Elliot has a great book on that, too.
And Motte, if you take the time to read biographies of those Christians who are much further down the path of sanctification than either you or I, you will discover that God is quite able to guide those who listen to His voice. It need not be a burning bush - it can be something as simple as a mature Christian suddenly talking about a subject that someone was secretly praying for guidance on. Extrordinary timing is often a way God can get someone's attention. My pastor uses the term "divine appointments" to describe how this happens.
Most people who are Charismatics didn't start out that way. They had something happen to them that made them realize that God still speaks.
23. Dan said the following at 12:01 AM on Feb 26:
I like the 4 criteion listed at the end of the post. However (huge SARCASM/tounge-in-cheek warning), shouldn't the number one criterion be...your birth order matches/is compatible with your love interest's birth order?
(some people have dropped other's 'cause of their "birth order's not matching up properly").
24. Rachael said the following at 12:05 AM on Feb 26:
Hi BDB,
The sandwich method.
I like how your pastor uses the term "divine appointments." What a neat way of looking at those amazing timing things that point to God's sovereignty. I LOVE noticing those divine appointments.
My not-really-criticism but sandwich filling (though I believe the first comment contains filling as well) - You might agree, but just in case, I just wanted to say that I think that perhaps most Christians from various theological leanings (charismatic and non-charismatic) who actively seek God through Scripture and prayer would agree that God still communicates today and in ways other than the 'burning bush' method.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your tone. I have nothing against you and enjoy your humor in your posts. I just wanted to add my two cents as is my habit, just to be clear...
25. Fred said the following at 5:20 AM on Feb 26:
Tara,
I think you do get your point across.
BDB,
Where does Motte make guidance seem silly?
26. Christina said the following at 8:52 AM on Feb 26:
lol Dan,
Coming from a large family (the oldest actually) and having two parents that were both the youngest of 5, I'd say relying on birth order to give you a basis of what to expect is ok, but not letting it block who the person is or how he/she could defy the stereotype.
Me, I find it difficult to identify with the youngest of a family or an only child. This has been a problem on occassion in communicating with my parents. I know its a problem, but not something I'm not willing to work through...though I can see how it could be a factor in the decision process, I think its more-so because of compatible mentalities that are a result of birth orders rather than just birth orders.
Meaning - I tend to mother people who are used to being mothered - and I just don't want to spend my marriage feeling like I have to mother my husband.
27. BDB said the following at 10:32 AM on Feb 26:
Responding to Rachael (#24):
As far as "divine appointments," one of the ones my pastor uses as an example was when a friend was very ill, and the one thing she really wanted to do was meet Smokey Robinson. Soon after, at the airport, my pastor ran into him unloading luggage at the departure line. So he explained to Mr. Robinson the situation, gave her the woman's phone number, and he called. There's nothing particularly supernatural about that - but the timing, and recognizing the opportunity.
For those delaying a decision pending a supernatural sign, look instead to Psalm 46:10: Be still, and know that I am God;
or an even better illustration:
1 Kings 19:11-12
Then He said, "Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
There are several Biblical examples of people taking matters into their own hands and ending up missing God's will. One is when Saul decided to listen to the people and perform a sacrifice himself, an act which cost him the Kingdom (1 Sam 15:10-35)
I actually don't know hardly any guys who are dating the same person for years and not proposing. But I know lots of people who say, "If it's not God's will, he'll stop me!" and they end up in a nasty mess of some sort.
Fred (#25):
>>Where does Motte make guidance seem silly?<<
By using the term "bondage" to describe "guidance."
28. Joy W. said the following at 10:51 AM on Feb 26:
The birth order comment was funny!!! I wrote a paper about birth order in high school, and if I remember my pop psychology correctly, oldest children are ideally supposed to pair up with youngest children. Having two "oldests" in a relationship together was supposed to cause too much conflict because both are used to being in charge, I think.
It's funny to me now, because my boyfriend and I are both oldest children, which hasn't been a source of conflict at all. Instead, it's given us one more thing (of many) that we have in common.
29. Jennifer said the following at 1:42 PM on Feb 26:
Tara wrote: "I also don't know if God has one person in mind for us or not when it comes to dating but I trust that my boyfriend is the guy God wants me to be with."
Rather than trusting that your boyfriend is the guy God wants you to be with, I think you can be sure that you have a certain liberty to be with him (assuming that it's for the purpose of eventually exploring the possibility of marriage), because 1 Cor 7:36 & 39 talk about the betrothed doing as they pleased in regards to marrying or not marrying, and the widow is free to marry whomever she wants.
However, if, through God's permissible will, you are dating someone, it doesn't necessary follow that he's the one God "wants" you to be dating. We can't just assume that if something is happening, that God is pleased that it's happening. We can ask God to bless our decisions (ie. marriage vows are essentially that, along with being a promise to God), but we do not know his opinions on what is happening, simply on the basis of the fact that they are happening (if that makes any sense). As BDB pointed out, there are a lot of people who think "If it's not God's will, he'll stop me!" and they end up in less than desirable situations.
God can use anything that happens to His good, but he is not the author of sin. When you look at all the micro-decisions and reactions that any couple goes through en route from dating to marriage, you'll find a series of things that vary in terms of sinful/non-sinful (especially in light of the fleshly and competitive processes involved), because we are fallen creatures. So when comes to our ideas of "matches made in heaven", I really don't think we can give God all the credit (or the blame, for that matter!). But we can invite the Holy Spirit into our dating and marriages, glean wisdom from the scriptures, and give God the glory and thanks for the fruits of righteousness.
30. Jennifer said the following at 3:08 PM on Feb 26:
As far as "divine appointment" is concerned, I think there may be some application of that in a missional sense, but that kind of grand terminology doesn't seem to fit for everyday life. Not that God isn't interested or involved in the details of our lives, it's just that the Bible doesn't seem to talk that way about day-to-day life matters, only when there's some kind of missional situation.
What's more, the idea that as soon as you become a Christian, that God is in control of your life (as if you are now His remote control robot), is another notion that causes believers to think that whatever happens to them (and whatever they do) is "God's will". Not only can this be used to ordain sin (as if, I got away with it, so it was meant to happen), it can also ordain more neutral, ordinary choices that we make that are simply our own human preferences.
Often, I wonder if the past several decades of Christian singles trying to "choose God's best", for a mate may have actually resulted in giving an advantage to the flakiest of our bretheren. You know, those who claim to be getting divine guidance all over the place -- while every one else is "waiting on the Lord", as they've been told to do.
31. Fred said the following at 3:53 PM on Feb 26:
BDB (#27),
Motte didn't just say 'bondage of guidance' and leave it at that. The rest of his post shows that he didn't mean guidance is silly but that an over-reliance on 'divine guidance' is wrong.
In relation to your reply to Rachel - Saul was deliberately disobeying God. Do you have any examples where people took matters into their own hands and were not disobeying God?
32. BDB said the following at 6:05 PM on Feb 26:
Jennifer (#30) wrote:
>>it's just that the Bible doesn't seem to talk that way about day-to-day life matters, only when there's some kind of missional situation.<<
I think the best day-to-day example is found in George Mueller's Autobiography. What you describe may happen more often in missional situations because those individuals are closer to the edge of their faith. Asking God what to have for lunch requires much more faith when there is no food in the cupboard and no money in the pocket. Mueller describes many times when the orphanages were down to nothing or almost nothing and provision came through some unexpected source because God moved that person to give. Mueller never asked for money, he relied on God to move the giver, and it worked. But his faith and discipline were great.
My church never asks for money because the pastor feels that God told him not to and to follow Mueller's example. Since I've been at the church, it's grown from 300 to 6000, and he hasn't asked for money - and the budget is now millions of dollars. But there's been lots of years of praying an wondering what God is up to because things don't seem to happen as fast as we'd like sometimes. We waited for a building for a couple of years longer than we wanted to. But sometimes God's answer to prayer is, "Keep asking."
Fred (#31) wrote:
>> Do you have any examples where people took matters into their own hands and were not disobeying God?<<
My point is that many times people take matters into their own hands becuse, like Saul, they are unwilling to wait on God's timing. As a result, they fall into sin and/or things blow up. As I heard at a seminary graduation speech once, you must choose to do things either your way or God's way. If you are a Christian and try to do things your way, it might work for a while, but it won't work in the long run. Hence the wisdom of waiting for God's timing.
To apply this to Motte's example, a person who doesn't believe they have God's go-ahead shouldn't be dating at all...
I'll provide another Biblical example of guidance. Everyone's heard about the "Potter's Wheel," and how we're all Play-Doh in God's hands. But look at Jeremiah 18:2
"Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words."
So, my question is, if Jeremiah was a prophet anyway, why didn't God just speak to him directly? Instead, God told him to go someplace specific, and after he was there, he noticed something. First Jeremiah had to obey and do something that, at first glance, seems irrelevant.
That's why one of the principles of "guidance" is to look around and make sure there is nothing that God has already told you to do that you haven't done yet. Is there nothing you neglect? You may be surprised how something pops into your head when you're in the middle of wrapping up something unrelated that you've been neglecting.
This is a testable proposition. Try it and see what happens.
33. Rachael said the following at 7:47 PM on Feb 26:
Hi Jennifer (30),
Perhaps another way you can look at the concept of "divine appointments" is in recognizing God's sovereignty.
About the first line of your last paragraph...striving to honor God in one's choice of 'the one' be a good thing, wouldn't it? Sure, there might not be external signs all over the place, but if the person is seeking God through Scripture and prayer while striving to live a sanctified life, God might make it clear to them by shaping their desires, and that in itself might be 'the sign'...
It seems that you might not be into the idea of "divine guidance all over the place"...and you know, if I met someone who always talked about receiving 'divine guidance', it's possible I might wonder or doubt, unless perhaps their character and grasp of Scripture seemed solid to me. Of course feelings can deceive, so what someone might deem to be signs from God simply might not. It's important to be aware of that.
But you know, it's totally possible to see God's sovereignty in even the little things. And it's totally amazing. This happened to me recently, where I kept feeling like my eyes opening. The timing of things kept jumping out at me. And now I think I see God's sovereignty in my life through the blessings of church and friends. I think it's good to be sensitive to see how God works. I think I didn't used to be the type of person that would often be sensitive to God at work in my life, but somehow it's happened more to me in recent months. Could be because of simultaneous hurt in another area, though. Brokenness might have softened the soil of my heart to grow wonder at His sovereignty.
34. Tara said the following at 9:28 PM on Feb 26:
I wasn't going to post again because there isn't much else I could say without becoming redundant but I wanted to respond to Rachael (comment #33). You expressed EXACTLY what I was trying to say in a more concise, understandable way.
It's not about trusting your feelings, looking for signs or God turning believers into puppets or robots. It's recognizing a Sovereign, loving God who has a special plan for each of us--a plan to restore us and make us more like Him. I am thankful for a God Who interacts even today with His people--the same God who gives each of us a brain and the ability to reason and make choices. And as our characters are refined to be more like Jesus we will naturally make more Godly decisions.
35. Dan said the following at 11:59 PM on Feb 26:
Response to #26 (Christina) and #28 (Joy W):
Thanks! It is funny how some people think of birth order only in first-middle-last (my family for example) terms, especially when some families have 2 kids, some 5, 6, 10, or more. Gets complicated.
I really did like the 4 criterion listed in the posting. My attack/sarcasm was on the silly things for which we dismiss other people (did someone mention Seinfeld -eating peas one at a time...)
36. BDB said the following at 12:43 AM on Feb 27:
Rachael (#33) wrote:
>>God might make it clear to them by shaping their desires, and that in itself might be 'the sign'...<<
Exactly - guidance and signs are not necessarily the same thing.
Here's an example of how it might work:
Say someone is praying privately for God's guidance on what kind of person to marry.
They could easily find themselves in the company of someone a lot like them - but 30 years older - who doesn't know they were praying about that. Out of the blue, that person might start talking about how their spouse is such a blessing, what characteristics made it possible for them to go the distance, contrasting their spouse with others who aren't as supportive, etc.
After that happens a few times, someone praying for guidance might realize that God has given them a new "list" of what they ought to look for.
It may be different than the list they had. For example, I know a number of really good looking people who are unkind. Think about it - would you really want to live with someone who was regularly unkind to others? Even if they looked good on your arm? Even working with people like that gets old really fast...
37. Rachael said the following at 10:26 AM on Feb 27:
BDB's comment 36 was nice. I love that "out of the blue" stuff. Maybe I should intensively try out the praying part of his strategy...doesn't mean I'd meet some nice couple with good advice, but, who knows, I guess...that's why things happen 'out of the blue'...not 'out of expectation of a sign'...though we can pray and trust He knows what's best. I need to pray a lot more. There are examples of its effectiveness in the Bible. We are told to pray, but still somehow since I know He knows everything I tend to lack trust in this department...
38. BDB said the following at 12:02 PM on Feb 27:
Rachael (#37) wrote:
>>Maybe I should intensively try out the praying part of his strategy<<
That's a good idea. Those kinds of things don't usually happen to me until I make the subject a matter of prayer. I'm always surprised when I spend a long time struggling over some issue, then finally realize that I've neglected to pray about it, start praying, and the answer shows up somewhere...
39. Jennifer said the following at 6:57 PM on Feb 27:
BDB said: "I think the best day-to-day example is found in George Mueller's Autobiography. What you describe may happen more often in missional situations because those individuals are closer to the edge of their faith. Asking God what to have for lunch requires much more faith when there is no food in the cupboard and no money in the pocket."
I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask God for anything. DEFINITELY we should pray, pray, pray! And give thanks for whatever comes our way, and to (as Rachael eloquently puts it) "wonder at His sovereignty". I was talking more about people who assume their in the situation that they are in, "because God put me there" (as if they aren't where they are due to some natural consequence of their own choices!). The example of providence in your own church is very inspiring -- the "soft sell" approach seems more righteous (and otherwise making due without, rather than reverting to a less godly "hard sell" approach when you don't get exactly what you want).
Rachael said:
"striving to honor God in one's choice of 'the one' be a good thing, wouldn't it?"
ABSOLUTELY!!
"Sure, there might not be external signs all over the place, but if the person is seeking God through Scripture and prayer while striving to live a sanctified life, God might make it clear to them by shaping their desires, and that in itself might be 'the sign'"
I wouldn't so much call that a "sign", but rather growing in wisdom and spiritual maturity.
"It seems that you might not be into the idea of "divine guidance all over the place"...and you know, if I met someone who always talked about receiving 'divine guidance', it's possible I might wonder or doubt, unless perhaps their character and grasp of Scripture seemed solid to me."
I think it's quite possible to be solid in character and grasp of scripture and still import too much supernatural significance into things. I think it's better to be "gratitude-minded", not so much for signs, but for the wisdom that comes from studying His word and fellowshipping with His people.
"And now I think I see God's sovereignty in my life through the blessings of church and friends. I think it's good to be sensitive to see how God works." This kind of sensitivity sounds like you are obediently practicing gratitude, which makes you more able to see the good in things (which also has the by-product of being able to see opportunities where there were none!).
40. Fred said the following at 7:55 PM on Feb 27:
BDB (#32),
"My point is that many times people take matters into their own hands becuse, like Saul, they are unwilling to wait on God's timing."
I'm puzzled - how do you differentiate between waiting on God's timing and taking a matter into your own hands? - do you mean do nothing until God speaks as opposed to only doing what you think is right?
What I'm wondering is are you meaning anything different than praying about a matter and doing what is not wrong biblically and not wrong according to the advice of other Christians?
41. BDB said the following at 10:14 PM on Feb 27:
Fred (#40) wrote:
>>I'm puzzled - how do you differentiate between waiting on God's timing and taking a matter into your own hands? <<
It would take too much space in this blog to explain. But I highly recommend George Mueller's autobiography and his booklet, "Answers to prayer," which chronicles some of the times he waited months or years to get an answer on something. It's all documented in a very detailed way.
42. Rachael said the following at 11:12 PM on Feb 27:
Jennifer,
Thanks for your gracious response to my comment. I do think it's good to strive to live life with eyes open and through an eternal lens...