Is "Female Self-Pleasure" Misguided Advice? by Candice Watters on 02/19/2008 at 3:06 PM

Thanks to those of you who've written to comment on this week's Q&A, "Female Self-Pleasure." I was distressed that until a few minutes ago, all the e-mail coming in was from men saying that while I gave good tactical advice, I had missed the boat by not focusing on grace and forgiveness. Then the female perspective emerged with a comment that said,

I have faced my own struggles with the issue in question, and know many other women who have. I also know that, even more than our male counterparts, it is very hard to ask for support in this area, because it is thought that females simply do not have this problem. Hopefully articles of this sort will open people's eyes and [they] "won't blush when [we] confess [o]ur sin," but instead will be "honest about sin's grip and ... willing to walk through this with [us]."

To those who think I missed the mark, I hope you know that I believe strongly in grace and forgiveness. I said as much in the Q&A that ran last month ("A Hopeless Sinner"). And the letter I answered this week came in after that one ran. So I figured the person writing had read that. Maybe I assumed too much. If so, the section that also applies to this week's column appears below. It applies to every question I answer about sin. It's just that I don't have room to restate this point every time I write. Typically I only have room to answer the specific question being asked. I will, however, work harder to include relevant links for more in-depth information on the overarching worldview of sin and forgiveness. Here's what I should have linked to:

Christ came to die for sinners. Sinners like you and me. Sinners like all the readers of this column. Though we may not be in a situation that feels as hopeless as yours does, it's just a matter of degrees, not kind. Jesus said he came to heal the sick. They're the ones who need a doctor.

The good news is that no one is beyond salvation. Romans 1:16 says the gospel "is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" (emphasis added).

Christ's gift of salvation is good news. But it's only good news if the person hearing it recognizes that they need it. Jesus came to forgive sinners, but He called them out of their sin. You don't get a pass because you face such seemingly hard, seemingly unique temptations.

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

Stop thinking it's all up to you. You can't do this alone. Thankfully, you don't have to. Jesus is the ultimate intercessor precisely because He came in the flesh and knows what's it like to be tempted — and to successfully resist that temptation. He even told us what to do: "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak" (Matthew 26:41).

Instead of agonizing over how much you've failed ... take the focus off you and put it on Christ. Seek His forgiveness, as well as a community of Bible believers who will walk alongside you and help you mature in your faith. And stop doing the things that set you up for failure. ...

It's not helpful to camp out on the idea that you're the worst of sinners. While it is essential to acknowledge your sin, it's also important to realize you're not alone. Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The danger of convincing yourself that you've blown it more than any other is that you'll start thinking you should get a pass because you're in a category by yourself. That you're somehow "the exception." You're not. Paul wrote,

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners — of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:15-17)

John MacArthur's commentary on this passage says, "Paul was living proof that God could save any sinner, no matter how great a one he might be."

When you're tempted to stop fighting sin, remember it's not just you you're at war with. Peter wrote, "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). The battle raging in and around you isn't just physical. It's spiritual. And to fight it, you need both physical boundaries and spiritual protection (Ephesians 6:10-12).

...You can't continue living this way without suffering the effects of your sin. I suspect you realize that and that's why you wrote. In fact, your e-mail is evidence that your conscience is still working, trying to move to back toward right living. It's not too late to change; not too late to act on what guilt remains. I'm really glad you wrote. I think it's a sign of God's mercy, evidence that He does love you and wants you to get right with Him. It's not too late to repent; truly repent, as evidenced by sorrow for your rebellion against God and His ways and His laws. Just because you don't feel like repenting doesn't mean you can't confess even that to Him in prayer.

But don't stop there. You can do a lot to make it less likely that you'll fall again.

...If you are truly a follower of Christ, you have access to the power that brought Him back to life. But it's up to you. You have a choice to make.

Is "Female Self-Pleasure" Misguided Advice? by Candice Watters on 02/19/2008 at 3:06 PM

Thanks to those of you who've written to comment on this week's Q&A, "Female Self-Pleasure." I was distressed that until a few minutes ago, all the e-mail coming in was from men saying that while I gave good tactical advice, I had missed the boat by not focusing on grace and forgiveness. Then the female perspective emerged with a comment that said,

I have faced my own struggles with the issue in question, and know many other women who have. I also know that, even more than our male counterparts, it is very hard to ask for support in this area, because it is thought that females simply do not have this problem. Hopefully articles of this sort will open people's eyes and [they] "won't blush when [we] confess [o]ur sin," but instead will be "honest about sin's grip and ... willing to walk through this with [us]."

To those who think I missed the mark, I hope you know that I believe strongly in grace and forgiveness. I said as much in the Q&A that ran last month ("A Hopeless Sinner"). And the letter I answered this week came in after that one ran. So I figured the person writing had read that. Maybe I assumed too much. If so, the section that also applies to this week's column appears below. It applies to every question I answer about sin. It's just that I don't have room to restate this point every time I write. Typically I only have room to answer the specific question being asked. I will, however, work harder to include relevant links for more in-depth information on the overarching worldview of sin and forgiveness. Here's what I should have linked to:

Christ came to die for sinners. Sinners like you and me. Sinners like all the readers of this column. Though we may not be in a situation that feels as hopeless as yours does, it's just a matter of degrees, not kind. Jesus said he came to heal the sick. They're the ones who need a doctor.

The good news is that no one is beyond salvation. Romans 1:16 says the gospel "is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" (emphasis added).

Christ's gift of salvation is good news. But it's only good news if the person hearing it recognizes that they need it. Jesus came to forgive sinners, but He called them out of their sin. You don't get a pass because you face such seemingly hard, seemingly unique temptations.

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

Stop thinking it's all up to you. You can't do this alone. Thankfully, you don't have to. Jesus is the ultimate intercessor precisely because He came in the flesh and knows what's it like to be tempted — and to successfully resist that temptation. He even told us what to do: "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak" (Matthew 26:41).

Instead of agonizing over how much you've failed ... take the focus off you and put it on Christ. Seek His forgiveness, as well as a community of Bible believers who will walk alongside you and help you mature in your faith. And stop doing the things that set you up for failure. ...

It's not helpful to camp out on the idea that you're the worst of sinners. While it is essential to acknowledge your sin, it's also important to realize you're not alone. Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The danger of convincing yourself that you've blown it more than any other is that you'll start thinking you should get a pass because you're in a category by yourself. That you're somehow "the exception." You're not. Paul wrote,

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners — of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:15-17)

John MacArthur's commentary on this passage says, "Paul was living proof that God could save any sinner, no matter how great a one he might be."

When you're tempted to stop fighting sin, remember it's not just you you're at war with. Peter wrote, "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). The battle raging in and around you isn't just physical. It's spiritual. And to fight it, you need both physical boundaries and spiritual protection (Ephesians 6:10-12).

...You can't continue living this way without suffering the effects of your sin. I suspect you realize that and that's why you wrote. In fact, your e-mail is evidence that your conscience is still working, trying to move to back toward right living. It's not too late to change; not too late to act on what guilt remains. I'm really glad you wrote. I think it's a sign of God's mercy, evidence that He does love you and wants you to get right with Him. It's not too late to repent; truly repent, as evidenced by sorrow for your rebellion against God and His ways and His laws. Just because you don't feel like repenting doesn't mean you can't confess even that to Him in prayer.

But don't stop there. You can do a lot to make it less likely that you'll fall again.

...If you are truly a follower of Christ, you have access to the power that brought Him back to life. But it's up to you. You have a choice to make.

Comments

[1. Matthew said the following at 3:15 PM on Feb 19:]

1

As someone who has also struggled with a long-term sin that I would commit over and over again, it was the grace and forgiveness on my accountability partner that always broke through to me and helped me stay encouraged and heartened to keep fighting. He likes to tell the story about a visitor to a monastery asking the abbot what they did all day there, to which the abbot replied, "We fall down, and we get up again." We can never over-emphasize the mercy of God to those who are truly saved and trying to overcome sin. I'm glad that you chose to post all of this to add on.

On the other hand, we also have to be vigilant about making sure that we've got all the weapons at our disposal and that we're using them when we're fighting sin, so I'm also glad that you gave the solid advice that you did.

[2. DannieA said the following at 4:13 PM on Feb 19:]

2

Candice,

I thought it was a good response to such an honest and vulnerable question.

I personally believe that if grace and forgiveness is taught in a way that people know it's there when we ask for it, then we wouldn't have to always deal with e-mails regarding that...

in this case, the reader wanted some practical advice to help her overcome and she sounded genuine.

A pat answer of "grace and forgiveness" without practical and biblical advice would have been a disservice.

Anyways I thought it was great that you would publish that as sometimes we don't deal with sexual sin as much because of "blushness".

[3. TN1 said the following at 4:20 PM on Feb 19:]

3

I think Candice might have been a little bit soft on the subject, if anything.

This is a link I found in the news that is somewhat related: http://www.local6.com/news/15338180/detail.html

I'm waiting to see if Boundless will have anything to say about this!

[4. Jean said the following at 4:49 PM on Feb 19:]

4

I dont know what to say other than thank you. It is a great article even if it does make people blush. Its kind of funny that this would make people blush but yet topics such as homosexuality and abortion are encouraged to be talked about and confessed. Thanks for caring more about womens struggles and salvation than about how many shades of red someone reading this would turn.

[5. Sue said the following at 4:51 PM on Feb 19:]

5

I thought you did a very good job of answering her question in a very helpful, non-pat (if that makes sense!) way. As someone who has struggled with this in the past, I found your advice very real. I knew there was grace and forgiveness, but I needed to know how to overcome it and not need to forever be running back to God begging forgiveness for a sin I'd committed yet AGAIN.

So -- keep up the good work! God is using you.

[6. Carrie (the original one) said the following at 5:22 PM on Feb 19:]

6

Candice, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. I thought I could have written that letter.
I didn't think you were too hard. If anything maybe soft. The practical advise was excellent. I love that you were honest about the hardest part of day for those who struggle with these sorts of sins (night). It's great to know I'm not alone in this battle.

[7. anonymous said the following at 5:39 PM on Feb 19:]

7

I think you addressed the topic well. Several years ago, I struggled with the same problem, and felt unable to talk to anyone about it, though if I were a young man and not a young woman, it would have been expected that I struggled with self-pleasure. I have shared my testimony in this area with a couple of close friends and my younger sister, in an effort to broach a difficult topic that no one ever seems to discuss, and also to let them know that as impossible as it feels to someone mired in sexual sin, God is able to deliver and to keep you. But the truth is, when I finally cared enough about my salvation than I did about transient pleasure, I sincerely asked God to deliver me, and He did. Completely. And despite 5 years of chaste singleness since then, He has fully kept me.

[8. Adam T. said the following at 5:54 PM on Feb 19:]

8

The letter writer says:

I want to have a healthy marriage, and I'm terrified of having to tell whomever I would marry of all the things I've done.

Well, I would accept her for who she is. I hope she finds that reassuring.

[9. Beth said the following at 6:13 PM on Feb 19:]

9

I also very glad you answered this lovely lady's question, though it is unfortunate that she had to turn to you after confiding in her parents and several others. I am glad this woman was brave enough to seek help. The fact that she continues to reach out says to me that she has not lost all hope. She has not given up, thanks be to God.

At my Christian college, it was basically assumed that all the young men had struggled with porn/masturbation - I am told that nearly every men's chapel addressed the topic (wasn't there myself, but I trust my source :)). I never heard anyone in authority address the problem for women. You would have thought women just didn't struggle with lust. This makes such sexual sin incredibly lonely and isolating (and I reckon this kind of sexual sin for both genders is lonely and isolating enough).

I think this is related to a point Lauren Winner makes in her book, Real Sex: one lie the Church tells is that women don't really want to have sex [my paraphrase, don't have the book with me]. Not sure where this comes from - it's like we have looked at statistics that say, "men want to have sex more often than women" and extrapolate from there to "women must not be very sexual AT ALL." At least that's the message I got from my experience.

So thanks, again, for answering the question. Simply acknowledging that this woman is not the only woman with this problem is radical enough.

[10. A girl said the following at 6:15 PM on Feb 19:]

10

I didn't find the article very helpful at all.

Any time I read admonishment to not indulge in self-pleasure, it's all about how the images that go along with it harm our minds. Set us up for false expectations. Corrupt us with fantasies.

That doesn't apply to me at all. It's like scratching an itch and my mind is blank. I don't fantasise about anyone because that would just make me feel empty. So from that perspective, I need a 'better' reason than what's given in the article for me to consider the act wrong. Or maybe it's not wrong and I'm not an addict, given that I generally ignore those urges and just chalk them up as part of the female hormonal cycle.

I see it as something TOTALLY SEPARATE to love and marriage.

---

An ex-boyfriend once gave me some porn to watch, saying it would be "useful for our future relationship (!!!)" (you can see why I broke up with him). It left me feeling bored (as well as disgusted and horrified).

---

I'd love to hear if other (female) readers think the way I do.

[11. Eliza said the following at 7:21 PM on Feb 19:]

11

I agree with A girl. Although I didn't think Candice's article was too "harsh" (I've heard much harsher!) I don't think it was too soft either. This is just such a difficult subject because like others have said, no one talks about sexual desire and the single woman. It is extremely lonely, and I spent the majority of my life from pre-teen years to mid-twenties just wracked with guilt. Regardless of how much you exercise or pray or stay away from anything sexualized, you just cannot eliminate your sexuality. It's like trying to eliminate hunger. The more you try to stay away, the more of an obsession it becomes. And don't tell me I just needed to "give it to Jesus". Believe me, I spent years in tearful prayer.

For me, the guilt was more destructive than anything else could have been. It has caused deep, deep wounds with my relationship with my mother (who I looked to for accountability and got a less than supportive response) and my relationship with God. I feel just awful for people who feel like they are sinners because God created them as sexual beings.

That being said, porn isn't helpful to anyone's perspective on healthy sex. I wouldn't advocate it. But feeling guilty for being a healthy sexual being is also not beneficial. I hope that, if anything else, people find freedom from the guilt which is so torturous and immobilizing.

(The reason I say I felt guilty up until my mid-twenties is because that is when I got married. The guilt I felt actually ended up being somewhat of a blessing, because it was no problem at all for me to offer grace to my husband for his previous sexual encounters. Nevertheless, if I could go back and do it over again, I wish I could have been freer from the guilt.)

[12. Osayi E. said the following at 8:01 PM on Feb 19:]

12

Thank you very much...

I am learning everyday I read a new entry on boundless, but this entry greatly touched me as a female, because when I was struggling, there weren't many places I could go, or people I could talk to. I thank you for speaking the truth because that is really what one needs to hear when struggling.

It's nice to know about grace and forgiveness, but it is impossible to truly understand the importance of grace and forgiveness if you don't understand the depth of the sin.

I only started to understand God's grace and forgiveness when I realized that my sin did not define me, it just meant that I did not truly understand the power God has already given me.

I thank God for you.

[13. Rachael said the following at 8:31 PM on Feb 19:]

13

Hi Candice,

I just wanted to thank you for your sensitivity, humility, and respect in the way you treat your readers. I like this line of your follow-up post: "...If you are truly a follower of Christ, you have access to the power that brought Him back to life. " We should always remember that HIS power is greater than ANY sin! Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."

[14. Rachael said the following at 8:56 PM on Feb 19:]

14

P.S.

One thing that might help people with dealing with sin or lack of discipline in whatever area might be having a trusted accountability partner.

For me, I find that meeting with someone once in awhile to discuss the Bible pushes me. I still slack, but then I end up trying hard to catch up or come close to catching up to where I should be when we meet.

In Candice's reply to the letter, she wrote: "What you need are believers who won't blush when you confess your sin; ones who are honest about sin's grip and are willing to walk through this with you."

I'm not really sure how people can find trustworthy accountability partners (well maybe through church friends, or family, but that involves risk), but here are a couple of accountability blog posts people might be interested in; it might give ideas of questions people could ask each other:
http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2008/02/my-friends-are-so-awkward.html

and

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2008/02/7-tough-questions-to-ask-your-friends.html

While I don't have any sin accountability partners, I think it's neat that people have them. Part of me would like to have one, but a large part of me doesn't want to share all my sins with a good friend or a family member or with anyone for that matter or ask them if I could share all my known sins with them. I think it would be good if there was sensitivity and love in accountability settings, though, and honestly I think a lot of people have different degress of sensitivity and patience. I guess it would take a lot of courage and vulnerability to share your sins with someone, especially when you don't know how they'd react. Anyway I'd encourage people to check out those links, in case it inspires them to ask and get asked challenging questions.

[15. xeres said the following at 9:07 PM on Feb 19:]

15

Part of the reason the subject is hard to tackle is because there's a huge disagreement on what is the difference between lust (which is against God's vision of sexuality) and healthy sexual desire. It is truly important to know the difference between the two. Anything that blurs the line between the two is deterimental to truly tackling the issue of sexuality.

How does anyone know the difference between lust and healthy sexual desire? I know the answer but I want see if any of the readers are able to articulate the difference.

[16. Talia said the following at 1:24 AM on Feb 20:]

16

I rather lean with what "A Girl" said (#10). **This is going to be blunt, and I understand greatly if it is not posted**

I couldn't really understand why the woman who wrote felt ashamed, because to me masturbation (as a female) is just an itch. I don't think about anyone or anything; there is no fantasizing.

That's why I find it difficult to understand why, *if* there is no fantasizing or whatever, it's such a big deal. I'm not looking at porn, or thinking about a man from a class, etc...

I don't know if this will be posted, but in general I would be interested to see more Boundless info about this. I know for me personally and several of my friends, we can't understand why the church has an issue with "female self-pleasure." Yes, I want to get married, and until then if I get an "itch," then a quick 30 seconds takes care of things and I get back to work.

Again, would be interested to see Boundless adress this and more on female sexuality.

[17. James said the following at 4:57 AM on Feb 20:]

17

It’s actually been quite a while since I posted here, though I have read many of the articles with some interest over the intervening months. Admittedly, I haven’t always agreed with all of the sentiments that they’ve proposed, but I’ve always found them thought provoking (which perhaps was the point). In this instance, I think the writer of the original letter gave a well thought through and biblical response to the question at hand and I concur with the advice offered and so won’t try to elaborate on that, but rather deal with a couple of points that other readers have made in their comments.

Firstly, Beth raises an interesting point when she talks off the assumption that since men are more likely to want sex more than women, we have somehow come to the assumption that women don’t want sex at all. There are probably many reasons for this, but a couple do spring to mind. Firstly, there is this perception that women are much more virtuous and spiritual than their male counterparts (compare the descriptions in children’s rhyme “What are little boys made of” by Robert Southey to see what I mean) and this idea does sit rather uncomfortably with an acknowledgment of the reality that women experience a strong desire for sexual intimacy. Secondly, the familial connotations of woman expressed throughout the church (whites weddings, marriage, children) again propose the existence of these virtuous maidens interested only in homemaking and bringing up children; in no way does this view allow for a person who simply wants to have sex, or one struggling with the desire for sex. Thirdly, there is our own worldview (male perspective). Now, I must first stress that in all such cases, the only male mind I have to call on is my own (I’m the only laboratory I’ve got) and as such this could be purely subjective. But it does seem to me that even in my own mind, there is a friction between understanding women as being kind, motherly and empathic and acknowledging the existence their desires. Perhaps it seems too carnal for them? That they are not capable of the same desires we are? I’m not sure.

I for one have always assumed that female desire would experience peaks and troughs in relation to the monthly cycle, waning at the point of menstruation and the peaking at the point of ovulation, while male desire is pretty much constant with no cycle to speak off. But perhaps the fundamental point is this. Do men find women’s sexual desires disconcerting? Is it on some level unnerving to us to learn that they desire you as much you desire them? And (sorry, poor grammar) have we come to subconsciously accept the sweetness and light view to such a degree that we don’t offer help and guidance to women because we don’t think they need it? Finally, on xeres point, I would say lust is ultimately a love of the self enacted in a sexual setting that reduces the other to an object to be used in the satiation of ones own desires. Healthy (if we can use that word) sexuality is mutual communion between those in marriage as laid out in Gods word. A proviso. Noticing and being drawn to attractive members of the opposite sex is not lust. Wanting to have sex is not lust. Desiring intimacy = not lust. The lust comes with action. All our desires are tainted, but for those whom God has called to both marital fidelity and celibacy, grace is given to bring them in line with his will.

Under Grace

[18. NSL said the following at 7:57 AM on Feb 20:]

18

In response to Talia (#16), I would say masturbation is inherently sexual and not just an "itch". I don't believe we can honestly equate masturbation with other activities, such as combing our hair or urinating. I believe the only context in which God encourages and honors sexual activity is marriage.

[19. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:11 AM on Feb 20:]

19

RE: Comments 9-11
I don't think it's the fantasy that ruins it or makes us feel guilty. The fantasy does not help, but there's more to this sin that fantasy. As I'm learning, it stems from the sin of loneliness.
Exercising, scripture memorization, and prayer aren't going to remove your sexuality. I don't think that should be the point. Physical and spiritual exercises should help to remind us that we are to be found in Christ and apart from Him we are lonely beings. All of the energy that we spend pursuing sinful activities or activities that lead to sinful behavior we should be spending in pursuing things of Christ.
Study, read, meditate, run with your thoughts fixated on Christ and most importantly don't allow yourself to grow weary. This is where I struggle and being to lose my battles. The day has come to an end and I find myself thinking "Well, I'm still lonely. I'm here by myself, again. I feel like a failture, again." This is the point at which I throw in the towel and give up. I fail to attempt to move beyond these thoughts.
Yes, I have libido. Yes, there are certain things I want out of life. The question is, where is my energy going to be spent? Do I give in to temptation or do I keep running the race? Whose race do I run? The one the Lord has set for me or the one I have set for myself? The Lord's race is much easier because it's been charted out already.

[20. John D. said the following at 9:29 AM on Feb 20:]

20

Carrie (the original) writes in post 19,

"... the sin of loneliness."

Just when we thought we had figured out whether there was a gift of singleness, now there is a sin of loneliness?

Am I working from a beta version of the Bible? Mine doesn't say "thou shalt not be lonely."

[21. G said the following at 10:25 AM on Feb 20:]

21

In regards to comment 19 from Carrie(the original) - how is loneliness a sin? I understand that our emotions are not to run our lives, but how does being lonely qualify as sinfulness? As a single, I find there is a constant, low-grade loneliness, even when surrounded by family or friends. I don't think the sin involved in masturbation is loneliness, but rather engaging in sexual activity outside of God's designed boundary of marriage.

[22. obewan said the following at 10:29 AM on Feb 20:]

22

Regarding this issue, I wish people would stick to the scriptures. The only passage in the Bible that even comes close to discussing “self-pleasuring” is found in Genesis 38, and my interpretation is that it is taken out of context when people do so.

In fact, if it is Biblically applied in its strictest context, then all forms of birth control could be considered a sin for married people.

Yes, according to this passage God wanted sex to be used for pro-creation, and Onan was out of the will of God, and God KILLED him for it. I don’t know if this is where the Catholic Church gets their doctrine from, but I am sure the vast majority of Protestants would not agree that use birth control is a sin.

From Genesis 38 we have:

“When he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother: Onan refused to take this responsibility seriously. He was more than happy to use Tamar for his sexual gratification, but he did not want to give Tamar a son he had to support but would be considered to be the son of Er.

i. Onan pursued sex as only a pleasurable experience. If he really didn’t want to father a child by Tamar, he should never have had sex with her at all. He refused to fulfill his obligation to his dead brother and Tamar.

ii. Many Christians have used this passage as a proof-text against masturbation. Indeed, masturbation has been called “onanism.” However, this does not seem to be the case here. Whatever Onan did, he was not masturbating. This was not a sin of masturbation, but a sin of refusing to care for his brother’s widow by giving her offspring, and of a selfish use of sex.”

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0138.htm

I say to those married people, you cannot have it both ways. If “self-pleasuring” (assuming without the acknowledged sin of lust) is a sin, then so is birth control.

I admit that according to the scriptures we should not be “mastered by anything”, and that we should not be defiled by the sin of lust. However, I also have to side with A Girl in comment 10 who said for her it is like an itch. Perhaps I saw too many Kinsey reports on trashy Phil Donahue shows, but they all suggested that women who learn to “self-pleasure” have better love lives when they are married. Spiritually, and physically, If I were in the process of choosing a wife, I would be more concerned about one that read trashy romance novels than one who scratched her itch.

Scratching the itch can not cause sexually transimitted disease or unwanted pregnancy. I think the other "sexual sins" or more clearly discussed in the Bible because they are "sins against our own body."

[23. Caleb S. said the following at 10:34 AM on Feb 20:]

23

Nice follow up. I definitely think both steps are necessary. Understanding God's grace, as well as actions to take. The real issue is the condition of our heart, and if that is not dealt with steps of action won't get us far, but they are definitely useful to helping us.

I am reminded of the passage in Hebrews that tells us to cut out the things that allow us the occasion to sin (loosely interpreted). A man addicted to gambling can't very well go to a casino just to hang out with his friends, but if he doesn't deal with other issues such as relying on God to provide his conquering of the sin won't last long.

[24. Christina said the following at 11:09 AM on Feb 20:]

24

I definitly struggle with this and knowing that, I've decided to be very limited in my expression of love towards the next man I date.

James, you had some interesting insight and that is really very curious about how men DO seem surprised when a woman expresses any sexual desire. I express to my female friends with a man nearby that I "am in desperate need of sex" and suddenly the guy falls flat on his face cuz he tripped on something and wasn't watching where he was going. Yeah, the physical need for sex does wax and wane with the "moon" (or cycle) - but there IS more to it...at least for me.

The longer I abstain from intimacy (emotional or physical - including hugging and kissing, not just sex) with someone of the opposite sex, the more I desire to pour myself out for a man.

You said:
the familial connotations of woman expressed throughout the church (whites weddings, marriage, children) again propose the existence of these virtuous maidens interested only in homemaking and bringing up children; in no way does this view allow for a person who simply wants to have sex, or one struggling with the desire for sex

This surprises me that men would have this view, because a desire for husband and family naturally includes emotional and physical intimacy. As my desire for motherhood gets stronger and stronger, my physical need for sex gets more and more pronounced. As my desire for marriage becomes more pronounced, my desire to physically appease a man that I am emotionally intimate with gets incredibly stronger.

The desires scare the living daylights out of me. The stronger they get, the more afraid I am to even begin an emotional tie with a man because I'm afraid I won't have the strength of will and mental discipline to remember to "Leave room for Jesus" as one of my best friends put it.

And as you said...this isn't lust - its a natural desire. And I find myself burning with it. >.< I need to get married...not only because of all the excellent points that boundless writers have made in the past, but because these natural desires are becoming increasingly difficult to control and I fail at glorifying God when I mess up. I want an intimate relationship with a man where I can offer myself freely to him. I want to have children and raise them.

Somehow, I feel that I'd be glorifying God in doing this.

Someone else mentioned that channeling that energy into focusing on God could be good. She's right. I use worship music because I always feel more intimately involved with God when I am praising him...work on pouring myself out for the appeasement of God while I wait on him to provide an outlet for these growing desires is a good way of going about it.

[25. Dolores said the following at 11:18 AM on Feb 20:]

25

James said, in comment #17:

Do men find women’s sexual desires disconcerting? Is it on some level unnerving to us to learn that they desire you as much you desire them?

I'd be really interested in the mens' answers to these questions. It's a side of the coin that I'm not sure I've considered, and my interest is piqued.

A girl (comment #10):

I'd venture to say that it's not fantasizing that makes masturbation wrong. Fantasizing is wrong, too, but another issue. Masturbation is wrong because it's sexual fulfillment outside of marriage. God doesn't tell us that we may only be scratched by our spouse, but He does say that sex is exclusively for marriage--one man, one woman.

Eliza (comment #11):

Regardless of how much you exercise or pray or stay away from anything sexualized, you just cannot eliminate your sexuality. It's like trying to eliminate hunger. The more you try to stay away, the more of an obsession it becomes.

I would agree with you there. God made us sexual beings, and being determined that we sexual beings isn't going to change that. However, we still have a responsibility to deal honorably with those desires--the fact that He gave us those desires doesn't excuse whatever form of fulfillment we choose.

I don't believe God intended for us to have sexual fulfillment outside of (and therefore, before) marriage. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to pretend to not have sexual desires. He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all. I wouldn't expect this to remove someone's healthy sexual desires, but I would encourage someone who's struggling to keep a deathly honest journal of where they're at and how they're dealing with it (or not dealing with it). I'm grateful that I can look back at my journal entries from times of gut-wrenching struggle and realize, I survived. There's hope. And often in the middle of the situation, just getting it all out on paper was a relief, a validation that God knows what's going on, even if I'm confused and hurting.

Josh Harris has some really good thoughts on this subject in Sex is Not the Problem: Lust is (previously titled, Not Even a Hint). I wish I could quote the whole chapter here. But here's one brief paragraph:

The reason this very private act matters to God is not because it involves our genitals, but because it involves our hearts. And God is passionately committed to our hearts belonging completely to Him (Deuteronomy 6:5).

The book is really good. If you can't afford it, check it out from the library (may still be listed as Not Even a Hint).

[26. Dolores said the following at 11:42 AM on Feb 20:]

26

TN1 mentioned the church that was challenging its members to have sex daily for a month. What I saw of the challenge seemed rather flippant, but what I found most disturbing was the counterpart of their challenge, for unmarried folks: No sex for a month. And from the comments of the unmarried church member quoted in the article, that part could be a problem. A challenge could be good, I suppose, but when the 30 days is over, do we go back to singles hopping in bed when the urge hits them?

Putting it on the same level for married folks to be having daily sex and singles to not be having sex for 30 days seems to degrade the importance of pre-marriage purity. A "challenge"? "Let's-see-if-we-can-do-this-for-one-whole-month?" The Bible comes out much stronger against extramarital sex then they appear to.

(Mods: This may belong in a new thread; feel free to move it.)

[27. Eliza said the following at 11:46 AM on Feb 20:]

27

Dolores,

You said, However, we still have a responsibility to deal honorably with those desires--the fact that He gave us those desires doesn't excuse whatever form of fulfillment we choose.

Of course that doesn't excuse any form of fulfillment we choose (such as engaging in sexual activity with a person to whom you are not married). There is, however, a difference. Firstly, how is masturbation considered "sexual fulfillment"? It is nowhere near being fulfilling like sex is in marriage. Also, what would the purpose be for God to ban this act? Sex is 1) a bond between two people and 2) a means for procreation. Neither of those things are present when one is alone. Finally, where in the Bible do you see God speaking to this issue?

You also said, I don't believe God intended for us to have sexual fulfillment outside of (and therefore, before) marriage. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to pretend to not have sexual desires. He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all.

I most definitely respect the desire to have one's heart belonging to God above all. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But I don't see how repressing our sexual desires will further give our hearts to God. If anything (for me) it tore my heart away from God. Indeed, deathly honest journals are nothing new to me, and I found immobilizing shackles of guilt and fear in them. It would be nice if a simple pen to paper would produce hope and freedom, but it is not the case.

I survived too--because now I'm married. If I wasn't, I'm sure by this point I would have gone off the deep end in despair.

[28. Carrie (the original) said the following at 12:19 PM on Feb 20:]

28

"It is not good for man to be alone" Loneliness was bad and not what God wanted for man, even in the Garden. Being a Christian means are in relationship with Christ meaning you are no longer alone.
I said the "sin of loneliness" because once you are have entered into a relationship with Christ you in theory should no longer feel like you are alone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what loneliness is: feeling alone. However, we are sinful beings so loneliness happens even once we are in relationship with Christ. Do I think it's damnable? As a feeling, no. If you continue to act on it and make certain judgements about God without ever repenting from them and end up in a life that is anti-God, then yes.
Comment #21
I don't think the sin involved in masturbation is loneliness, but rather engaging in sexual activity outside of God's designed boundary of marriage.
If it was a matter of behavior modification ("just stop doing that"), then years of counseling wouldn't be needed in order to successfully overcome it.
I agree that the sin of loneliness (and yes, I'll continue to refer to loneliness as a sin because it is "not good for man to be alone" and a sin is something that is "not good" and thus anti-God) is something that plagues singles in a very different way than it does married couples.
I'm single, I know. Solitude is one thing. We all need solitude every now and then, but loneliness is not something we need. It is something that we ought to be fighting against.

[29. Candice Watters said the following at 12:52 PM on Feb 20:]

29

Obewan, you raise an excellent, if totally off-subject, point: most Protestants just assume birth control is OK. Not only OK, but the thing to do. Which is troubling if for no other reason than they make decisions about it without thinking through all the implications of it. But I'll save that one for another post.

Thanks Dolores for recommending Josh Harris's book Not Even a Hint. That's a great idea and a great resource. You can get it here (It's now called Sex is Not the Problem: Lust Is).

[30. anonymous said the following at 1:02 PM on Feb 20:]

30

I also posted comment #7. In regards to people saying that masturbation is just scratching an itch: I don't know if it is a sin, outright, in any situation. I think it probably is. In any event, I can speak for my own experience, and for me, it was a sin. For many reasons.

1. I've heard the whole idea of separating fantasy from the physical act, and I personally think that's like smoking weed and not inhaling. Difficult to separate, silly to tempt yourself. It's a justification I tried to use myself, but I never did convince myself.

2. I often engaged in self-pleasure to fight loneliness, boredom, or sadness. Much like any addiction (food, alcohol, etc), when I should have been using those opportunities to turn to God. I was substituting prayer and reflection time with sexual gratification. Not good.

3. It is a slippery slope. For me, masturbation, reading romance novels, even "soft" porn on late-night t.v. were all intertwined, and the more I did it, the deeper I got. What would start as "scratching an itch" quickly led to more.

4. My thoughts centered more on sexual thoughts throughout the day in general because I was encouraging my natural tendencies when I should have been exerting self-control.

When I was engaged in these activities, I tried to justify them to myself a lot. But when I stopped making excuses and really, really thought about it, I realized that self-pleasure was distracting from my spiritual walk, giving me such intense shame that I felt too guilty to really engage with God, encouraging an unhealthy focus on sexuality that is difficult, I think, to confine your alone times. How do you shut off your sexual self when you're trying to engage in chaste dating relationships? Altogether, the result of my habit of masturbation was an increased distance from God.

I am a healthier person in many ways now that I do not pleasure myself sexually. I stopped when I was 20. I am now 25 years old, and single, and yes, of course I have hormones and my body is ready to do a lot of things that it's not doing right now. But I refuse to accept the idea that I must indulge my natural desires just because they are natural. The bible tells me that my flesh is at war with my spirit. I do not intend to help my flesh win by encouraging my thoughts and actions to push the limits of restraint.

I look forward to unleashing my years of pent-up sexual energy on my husband, when I will be able to enjoy my sexuality in the way that God designed it. Free of guilt.

[31. S. said the following at 1:16 PM on Feb 20:]

31

I find this topic fascinating because this is something I, too, have struggled with since age 12. Carrie, I think you pinpoint it when you say it stems from the sin of loneliness. I recently just "met" a little book called "How to Win Over Loneliness," written by John Haggai in 1979. I highly recommend it, if you can track down a copy. "Loneliness" is just another word for an emptiness or discontent of some sort, and as Candice's article and links pointed out, we humans are always trying to fill a perceived emptiness on our own instead of bringing it to God. Interestingly enough, the more satisfied I've become over the years with God and the life He has given me, the less tempted I've been. I would say (although with fear and trembling) that I have been living in victory for almost a year now.

It only recently occurred to me, in one of those reality-shattering revelations, that the holes in my heart are places through which God's love can pour. So I've been asking Him to teach me more and more about His love, so that I can pass it on.

I've also been experiencing some really curious things since God started upping the pressure and forcing me to work on this. I had basically never known adult life without it, so it was an adjustment. I found that sexuality is wrapped up in my perception of... everything! It's hard and risky to get to know the opposite sex as people, and I began to realize that I had only been socializing with good-hearted guys I found unattractive. Since, two things have been happening. First, the good-hearted guys are becoming more attractive, each in his own way. ;) Second, I find myself stepping out of my comfort zone more often in human interactions and in everything else. I'm not so bound by my feelings.

I think the point is that of course our sexuality does not go away. We can attempt to satiate it, or we can "bounce" the same motivation elsewhere - perhaps into creative energy or prayer. Sexuality is much bigger than a single physical act. In a paraphrase of some famous person, probably C.S. Lewis, we're not asking too much of our sexuality, but far too little.

[32. Beth said the following at 1:23 PM on Feb 20:]

32

I agree with all your reasons, James (#17, responding to my first post, #9). But I believe that all these reasons evidence a distorted view of sex – I understand the underlying presupposition to be that sex, and the desire for it, is dirty, sinful, kinky, wrong, bad, and gross. On the contrary, sex is good, designed by God. Why should Christ-loving, Bible-believing, “kind, motherly and empathic” women NOT desire such a joyful, wild and rowdy gift?

I would like to point out that sex objects do not have their own desires; objects are only acted upon by others. We have farther to go in our conformation to the gospel if we do not accept female sexual desire; if we do not acknowledge its existence, what have we done with the world’s female sex object except clean her up and make her wear an apron?

I do think you are in the majority understanding female sexuality this way. My husband says that before we married he assumed he would be the only one wanting sex, that his wife would just let him have sex with her because she was being nice (or something to that effect). He brings this up now and then to reiterate how grateful he is to be married to me. :)

[33. Beth J. said the following at 1:24 PM on Feb 20:]

33

It bothers me that some of you don't think masturbation is wrong, even aside from porn or fantasy, because it is such a selfish thing.
Just as God wants all of our lives brought to the light and in Him there is no darkness at all, I need to think of my life like that- would I be ashamed if someone walked into the room? Am I ashamed knowing that God sees me? I wouldn't masturbate in public... it's not an acceptable thing. Why would it be right to do in private?
I don't mean to say that all nakedness is sin, and just because I don't want others in the bathroom with me doesn't mean that I am doing anything wrong. But we hide our nakedness for the same reason Adam and Eve did. Not because it is wrong, but because we are ashamed and exposed. Modesty requires covering.
We get caught up in the public sins and dismiss the private ones, but don't forget that God looks at the heart.
I think the girl who wrote in knew about grace and forgiveness, but wanted to get out of the sin/confess cycle. Paul says in Romans 6 that we aren't to abuse God's grace by continuing in sin, and so many other verses say that to be a Christian is to stop sinning. Yours may be lying or gossip, someone else's may be anger or pride. Hers is sensuality, and it needs to be broken and conquered just like the rest. Thank you, Candace.

[34. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:31 PM on Feb 20:]

34

The fact that sexual desires were intended to be fulfilled within marriage, and the fact that those desires peak in males in the late teen years (I'm not sure of females but they can be strong at that time as well), it would be reasonable to conclude that we were "designed" to marry at a much younger age than we do now. In fact, for much of human history, this was the case where it used to be a maiden turning 18 without a husband was branded an "old maid".

Unfortunately, society's milestone expectations do not match up with our biology and we wrestle with the issues we do now. Christians moreso as pre-marital sex is verboten.

Regarding masturbation, I think that most Christians (myself included) hedge the answer. I don't know of many who would outright say that it's always a sin, nor those who think "anytime, anyplace" is a good guideline to follow. Dr. Dobson is actually one of those who takes more liberal view of it than most Christian leaders. I will say though that I believe there can be a danger in emphasizing the issue too much. For example, if you have an accountability partner and are constantly failing eventually it may cause one to feel worse or inhibit talking to that person altogether (because you will have to confess your failings). I'm not saying accountability isn't important or a good tool, but it may be as futile as having a man be accountable to his wife for any lustful thoughts he's had that past week (not talking about something as serious as obsessively viewing pornography).

Finally, I'd like to comment a bit on Joshua Harris. Although I do think some of his words of advice are sound in his books, he does not exactly have what's called the "credibility" issue. For example, he rejects altogether the modern dating model and yet he married at the good "old" age of 21. Likewise, it's easy for married people who have access to proper sexual release to treat celibacy as manageable if one lives "spiritually enough", but it's much easier said than done.

[35. obewan said the following at 1:55 PM on Feb 20:]

35

Candice:

I did not mean for my comment (#22) to appear off topic. On the contrary, Genesis 38 is the passage I am usually quoted by people who tell me self pleasuring is a sin. When I read it, I make the connection to birth control, which raises many questions for me - especially since I carry a defective gene and do not want to pro-create (should I ever get married). I will look forward to your posting on the subject of birth control if you choose to address the subject.

[36. S. said the following at 1:58 PM on Feb 20:]

36

Regarding loneliness as a sin, some quotes from John Haggai's book (which again, I recommend):

"Loneliness is complex. It is different from being alone. One can be alone by choice, but even when it is not by choice, being alone can be creative and productive. But being lonely is usually not by choice; it can drain the emotions and negate creativity.
"One historian noticed that today's American is equipped with a gyroscope instead of a radar screen because he is now 'other-directed' instead of 'inner-directed.' Now he has no internalized values of his own. Rather, he is pummeled into conforming to his peer group in order to gain their approval. This alters his behavior, his convictions, and his life-style. Worst of all, it imprisons him in the loneliness ghetto. This explains the neurotic personality of our time and the near-desperate urge to conform.
"One of America's top sociologists, Titkin Sorokin, said, 'Facing loneliness was once a mark of manhood in American civilization. In an earlier era, Americans were reared to face life on their own in the struggle to achieve success through work.' He further goes on to suggest that being alone was part of the definition of successful living. I suggest that he is innocently confusing 'aloneness' with 'loneliness.'
"He further says (and I think he is right here) that we tend to identify our personal success in terms of our being liked and accepted. In such a situation, of course, emotional isolation strikes with a terrific impact. Many cannot handle it for the simple reason that it suggests a frightening vulnerability at best or total inadequacy at worst.

Loneliness as sin:

"God's Word says, 'I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee' (Heb. 13:5). Loneliness weepingly replies, 'I don't believe that.' God's Word says, 'The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want [literally be in need]' (Ps. 23:1). That need can be psychological as well as physical. But loneliness, with deep self-pity, whines, 'I don't believe that.' . . . God says, 'My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness' (2 Cor. 12:9). Loneliness grievingly cries, 'But my weakness is far too great. Nothing can help. I don't believe that.'
"How inexcusable for anyone to accuse God of falsehood. And when we knuckle under to loneliness, that is exactly what we do. We insult God!"

Other interesting tidbits:

"One of the disastrous behavior patterns that loneliness produces is the compulsion to unrealistic expectations.
"Depression is a ruin of loneliness. Depression distorts our thoughts, our reactions, our reasoning, our worth, and our purpose."

Eliza said "I survived too--because now I'm married. If I wasn't, I'm sure by this point I would have gone off the deep end in despair."

Speaking from personal experience, sometimes despair is right where God wants us before He can pick us up again with the deepest knowledge of His grace.

[37. Eliza said the following at 2:05 PM on Feb 20:]

37

Beth J.,

would I be ashamed if someone walked into the room? Am I ashamed knowing that God sees me? I wouldn't masturbate in public... it's not an acceptable thing. Why would it be right to do in private?

You would be embarrassed if someone walked in on you dressing or showering, too. It is also not appropriate to have sex with your spouse in public, but that is not an inherently shameful thing.

[38. Christina said the following at 2:06 PM on Feb 20:]

38

Mike, I do have mixed feelings about whether it is right or wrong.

My reasons for it would be to put a damper on the appetites that grow to the point that I would actually do something like call up a guy and invite him over. No, "satisfying" something like that in a small way doesn't make it right if its for the "greater good". I'm not trying to say that at all. But considering the Bible has nothing to say on it, its one of those conscience things. Sometimes my conscience says absolutely not (especially when I'm fantasizing about a man), but other times when I'm trying not to engage in some other sexual sin, my conscience is strangely quiet (yes I can do this and not fantasize at the same time).

Carrie, your "sin of loneliness" is flawed. I hate saying that cuz it makes me sound so uppity and perfectly logical, which I'm not...but here's what I've got.

1) Adam had the PERFECT relationship with God. There was NOTHING separating him from God. He walked and talked in person with God himself - face to face...in a garden. There was no NEED for Jesus because there WAS no sin. So, it not being good for man to be alone was something to compliment his relationship with God. And God made Eve. Not Jesus.

2) When sin entered the world, man was seperated from God. That perfect relationship is no more. To fill THAT need, we need Jesus. Our relationship to him is our first need, and once that is met, it doesn't mean we are no longer alone - it simply means that we are in a relationship with God. Now to take care of the "its not good for man to be alone" part.

I don't think that we should be attempting to fill our "loneliness" with anything outside of God first. But if there is a confident faith in God and a seeking after God and there is no other relationship in a person's life, that is not healthy. God did not create us to be alone, but first and foremost he did not create us to be with out him.

Loneliness is not a sin. Its what you do with it that is. James Dobson wrote a book forever and a day ago about Emotions - emotions are never the sin. Actions are.

Argh and anyone coming at me and attacking this post with a thousand and one epistemological arguments about God and Jesus both being present in the Garden, I know. I was simply attempting to make a point and God's knowledge of the future state of the world and his plan has little to do with the point I was attempting to make.

[39. Beth said the following at 2:13 PM on Feb 20:]

39

Carrie (the original), (#28)

If by “loneliness” you mean discontentment, impatience, bitterness, despair, or anger, then I agree that “loneliness is a sin.” However, I do not believe at all that the desire for relationship is sinful.

You quoted “it is not good for man to be alone.” Amen. But God made that pronouncement before the fall, when God and Adam had no sin to separate them, when God walked with his children in the cool of the day. Even then, our merciful God decided it was best to create for Adam a companion. This may be going too far, but I would venture to say Adam was lonely in the garden, prior any and all disobedience.

I remember days when I told myself, “I am good at being alone.” I had been lonely a lot, but I was tough, and I had Jesus. I cried when I read the first chapters of Genesis for the hundredth time and realized that, just maybe, God does not condemn me for my loneliness. Just maybe, He understands.

I hope you’re not offended by my pseudo-psychoanalysis of your statement in the first paragraph. I know how easy it is to layer one emotion over the other. Lately I’ve been confessing that I am impatient. And by “impatient” I mean angry, bitter, envious, and prone to despair. “Impatient” sounds better, though. :)

My point is that you may be correct in your assessment of your own sin, but I doubt your sin is loneliness. I mean this as a reminder of God’s grace to you.

Blessings -

[40. Amanda said the following at 2:19 PM on Feb 20:]

40

I am a woman who struggles with masturbation, and like A girl and Talia, I do not fantasize during the act. Nonetheless, I am convinced that, at least for me, it is sinful. Candice DID provide reasoning for why female masturbation is wrong -- by quoting Theophilus who said that self-pleasure "draws the erotic longing backward into Self instead of outward." The bottom line for me is that masturbation is NOT what the Lord created my sexual desire for. He created us with these desires so that we could be INTIMATE WITH ANOTHER PERSON...in the context of the covenant relationship of MARRIAGE -- NOT so that we could get this pleasure prematurely, in isolation from others. I can only imagine how masturbation could make fulfillment in a sexual relationship in marriage difficult because it sets it in your mind that physical pleasure is all about YOU; it's taking it out of the context God created it in; it's just UNHOLY. This is what the Lord has led me to believe. That being said, I don't know your heart and I don't know how the Spirit has led YOU...but just know that there is freedom in being honest with yourself and with the Lord about what you're doing. Walking in obedience to him is SO MUCH BETTER than the fleeting pleasure of masturbation. Don't you ever just feel empty afterward? Allow the Spirit to convict you about why that is. I just want to encourage anyone who is justifying this act to let him give you the ultimate satisfaction of tasting and seeing that the Lord is good -- so much better than anything we could give ourselves. "Self-pleasure" is a nice euphemism...but TRUE pleasure lies in the LORD.

[41. Eliza said the following at 2:44 PM on Feb 20:]

41

S.,

Despair is the loss of all hope or confidence. I do not think God ever wants us to come to a place of despair. That would be, quite literally, hell.

[42. Carrie (the original) said the following at 3:18 PM on Feb 20:]

42

However, I do not believe at all that the desire for relationship is sinful.
That's my point. It the desire for relationship isn't sinful. We were created for relationship. The fact that Adam was lonely in the garden points to this.
God said lonliness was bad in the garden. What we do to fill the void that loneliness leaves is even worse. Goodness gracious people, how am I being misunderstood??

[43. Loris said the following at 3:54 PM on Feb 20:]

43

I definitely agree that there is a perception of women having "cooler" sex drives than men. My husband told me his pastor had taken him out to breakfast the summer before our marriage and given him a long lecture about how he would probably have to "go easy" on me. This squared with what he had already assumed and he was very relieved to find out the stereotype wasn't necessarily true.

[44. Beth said the following at 4:17 PM on Feb 20:]

44

Carrie,

So you're saying that the things you do BECAUSE you are lonely are sinful? That is different from saying that loneliness is sin.

Please be clear about what you mean, and it will help people to understand you.

[45. Dolores said the following at 5:01 PM on Feb 20:]

45

Eliza,

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say "sexual activity" rather than "sexual fulfillment."

Apparently some of the logic that seemed clear in my own head didn't make it through the keyboard. For instance, I said He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all. What I meant is that, unless we're truly honest with Him, He's not going to have our hearts and the relationship turns rather fake.

You said, I don't see how repressing our sexual desires will further give our hearts to God.

I'm not sure what I said that you're taking as meaning that repressing sexual desires will give our hearts more to God. Hmmm... And what do you mean by "repressing sexual desires"? I thought I was pretty clear in saying we should express those desires, but not by acting on them.

Carrie,

Regarding it "not being good" for man to be alone:

1. God didn't say it wasn't good for man to "feel alone," which is in essence what loneliness is.

2. If the "not being good"=sin, then we have a major problem, because there was no sin in the Garden.

Mike,

I didn't quite understand the flow of your comments regarding Joshua Harris, but have you read Sex is Not the Problem: Lust is? He shares quite honestly from his own pre-marriage struggles--and I know of multiple "older" singles (myself included) for whom the advice in that book was dead-on.

[46. Jeff said the following at 5:27 PM on Feb 20:]

46

I'm still kind of confused about the concept of loneliness as a sin. I was reminded that Jesus cried out in Mark 15:34 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Honestly, I've never really understood why He says this and maybe I'm not interpreting it correctly. I realize that He is quoting from Psalm 22, but that hasn't really made it any clearer to me.
This sounds like a cry of loneliness from our Lord and Savior to me. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

[47. Katie B said the following at 6:00 PM on Feb 20:]

47

in response to A girl... I dont think it matters if you can seperate fantasies or lust from masturbation.
I go to a private christian college and am studying pastoral ministry,as a woman, I am surrounded by men in all my classes and in my ministry internships and projects, the future pastors of america, and have been blessed to have the experience of being in a mostly male enviroment, the issue of sexual sin is not shied away from, since it is such a large problem in church leadership. I have witnessed some incredibly candid discussions. While I dont struggle with masturbation or pornography, (though before I came to christ and a year or so after I struggled with sinful intamacy with male aquaintences) what my classmates and professors have come to understand is that the issues of masturbation, porn, sex before marriage, are all boiled down to false intamacy. That is what most of my male friends have confided as the most spritually and relationally damaging aspect of sexual sin. Causing the God given sexual response to occur in a situation that is not God ordained. masturbation, as well as porn and fantasies, trigger our sexual response, but there is no other person involved. Instead of sex being relational, it becomes individual. There is no giving or recieving, there is only 'scratching an itch' or trying to cope with other issues by finding sexual release.
Sex is an incredible picture of the intamacy that God wishes to have with us. We are his bride. but when we twist that it becomes perverted. even if there is no fantacies, arguably no lust, it still is driving the sexual response inward instead of outward. that becomes damaging to our intamate relationships, with our boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse, and also with God.

[48. Toan said the following at 6:06 PM on Feb 20:]

48

I admit I am frustrated with what a few people have said. Not the comments on masturbation, but persons reiterating that "Yes, I had heard women had lower sex drives." Or something to that effect.

If nothing else the church might do good to look towards the secular world on this aspect. It would irritate me to know that my future husband/pastor/youth pastor/whomever would assume that I have little to no sex drive. Don't they know basic biology?

Why is it so impossible/improbable that there is a female sex drive? Or that women have needs, or that women can and do enjoy sex?

It has me thinking of some archaic 1800s text or something talking about a woman's wedding night and her being so frightened. Well, I am not frighted. I am quite looking forward to it, and I am getting the impression that during my premarital counseling better make sure this is clear.

[49. Anonymous Girl said the following at 7:34 PM on Feb 20:]

49

In response to Xerxes, (post #15):

I used to struggle with sexual thoughts -- actually, I didn't even struggle with them, I just gave in to them. For me personally, so that there can be no accusations against me that can stand in spiritual warfare, I draw the line very conservatively. If I have a thought about a guy that turns me on, I immediately get rid of it. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I would rather be on the safe side. However, I definitely see a difference between that and just noticing that guys are attractive; I can't help that.

Where do you draw the line, Xerxes?

[50. J said the following at 11:09 PM on Feb 20:]

50

I am glad to see that this topic is being addressed in a Christian forum such as this. I think the reason people continue to struggle secretly is that they believe Satan's lie that they are "the only one" struggling with a certain sin. This can lead to cycles of tremendous guilt and shame.

Confession can be difficult.
Confession can be powerful, but at the same, it can be difficult to find someone trustworthy (or develop trust) to confess one's sins and know that the confessed sins will remain confidential. The other thing that might keep someone from confessing is that they are afraid that the other person might be shocked, misunderstood or disappointed, particularly in some circles when one hears people say, "Well, I've never had that problem."

The very positive thing about confession, however, is that when we admit our struggles, we sometimes do find out that we are not the only one who struggles in a certain area.

I think that it is important that topics like this are addressed in Christian settings in a candid way as was done in this article. If the Church doesn't address these issues, you'd better believe that people will find a way to justify their behaviour based on information found in worldly sources.

[51. H.A.P. said the following at 6:07 AM on Feb 21:]

51

I'm just married six months but this reminded me how rough the single years were. (How could I have forgotten so easily?) I can't stop praying for my single friends!!
I've always quietly wondered at reference to the lack of interest women have in sex. I think that line of thought goes back to the Victorian era "Sex is something men do and women endure". How many times have I heard that?!!
My dear husband was shocked when I suggested we spend the first week of our honeymoon in a cabin in the woods with no TV, computer, cell phones, etc.... and no where to go. Needless to say he quickly agreed. :)

[52. Carrie (the original) said the following at 7:33 AM on Feb 21:]

52

Beth, I think it's a both/and. Christ took on sin on the cross. He bore the loneliness/seperation from God on our behalf. So, I still think that loneliness is a sin. A sin that Christ took on in order to redeem it.
Dolores, there was sin in the Garden actually. The common interpretation is that sin entered once Eve bit into the apple. I can't be convinced of this.
Sin entered (in the form of the snake) before Eve bit into the apple. Now, here is what makes me tremble: there was a guard at the gate. Supposedly a perfect guard, but the serpent somehow got in anyway.
Eve chose to eat of the apple. So was it when she bit into the apple that sin entered or was it upon her decision to transgress?
There are many questions about the fall of man that I have. Which is why I think so much about loneliness, I suppose.

[53. Eliza said the following at 7:38 AM on Feb 21:]

53

Delores,

Ah, I see what you mean about being fake with God. I don't think I've ever been anything but candid with God--after all, He knows exactly what I'm thinking/feeling anyway. It is kind of impossible to deceive God. But I still don't see how being honest with God about your desires actually changes anything about those desires, other than the fact that God knows about them.

Regarding repressing sexual desires, I am very confused. How in the world does a person express their sexuality while not acting on it?

Also, I know everyone here is talking about being "turned on" like it's something that only happens if something sexual in nature passes by. But I really believe that being sexually aroused can be a completely physical thing. The physical occurrence of sexual arousal is a common, frequent fact of human life which does not ask us if we're interested first.

It does not seem to me to be within the character of the God of scripture to create a human feature which is both strong and frequent, and then demand that we ignore it. That god sounds like an obnoxious bully.

[54. Eliza said the following at 7:56 AM on Feb 21:]

54

I'd like to clarify something.

The whole reason we're having this conversation is because all of us are pursuing personal holiness. God says, be holy as I am holy. Of course we want that!

My question is, does that extra-rigorous pursuit of righteousness come at the expense of a deeper satisfaction in God's grace and love? Spending so much of our lives in agony because we are not living up to God's expectations does not seem to be the abundant Christian life.

I know all of the classic Evangelical answers about if you really are in prayer before God he WILL give you the strength and grace to overcome whatever struggles you are facing. But what that REALLY sounds like is: if you are not overcoming your struggles, then you must not be in prayer enough because God obviously hasn't given you strength and grace.

So God's strength and grace becomes the necessity of our own strong will. And we all know that our will is not strong enough to reach God's holiness standards.

If a person is dealing with a consistent struggle such as this one, he/she has a choice: struggle fearfully against it, or feel terribly guilty about having yielded to it. No where in that equation do I see the peace and joy that supposedly characterize the Christian walk.

[55. S. said the following at 11:52 AM on Feb 21:]

55

Eliza said, "My question is, does that extra-rigorous pursuit of righteousness come at the expense of a deeper satisfaction in God's grace and love? Spending so much of our lives in agony because we are not living up to God's expectations does not seem to be the abundant Christian life."

I have been meditating a lot in the last several months on Hebrews 12:10-11 - "For [the fathers of the flesh] verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."

Perhaps you are assuming what I thought for years (and what terrified the author of the question Candice was answering), that ultimate victory is impossible? I'll say this - it is very, very hard, and only God's power can work even the will to try.

If you haven't really exercised your body for years, if at all, and you suddenly begin, the first several weeks you will feel like you are dying. Does that mean it is impossible for you to become fit? Not at all. You just have more work to do than the person who has been regularly working out since childhood. But is it worth it? You bet! Are you letting yourself in for a life of agony? Well, I'll take exercise over diabetes or heart trouble any day. :)

[56. Louise said the following at 1:00 PM on Feb 21:]

56

Regardless of sterotypes, images, etc. most men, both religous and secular, would prefer a wife with a healthy sex drive.

[57. Liz said the following at 4:45 PM on Feb 21:]

57

I’d like to add onto something Eliza said above:
If a person is dealing with a consistent struggle such as this one, he/she has a choice: struggle fearfully against it, or feel terribly guilty about having yielded to it. No where in that equation do I see the peace and joy that supposedly characterize the Christian walk.
I agree that there is no peace and joy in the two above options of either struggling fearfully against it or feeling terribly guilty. If these were the only two options that we had, there would be sufficient cause to despair. However, there is a third, and far more fulfilling and freeing option:
Remember who you REALLY are…a son or daughter of the Most High. He loved you enough that He sent His one and only Son to die for you. His death on the cross bought our freedom with the blood that He shed on the cross. This is not a partial, but rather a complete freedom. Once we have accepted Jesus as our personal Savior, we have to remember that we have gained the absolute and total authority over our enemy who seeks to devour and destroy us at any and every chance that he gets. He tries to destroy us through the addiction of masturbation and many other areas. No matter how hard we try, we cannot free ourselves on our own. I should know, I tried.
I tried many times to free myself from the trap, but I was bound until I remembered that I am a daughter of the King and walked in the authority granted to me as my inheritance. Let me say that total victory and freedom IS possible…but it is only possible through the blood of Jesus. I am a single woman who has been walking with Jesus for over 20 years and I am now 2 years freed from masturbation. The praise and the glory go alone to God!!!!

[58. Eliza said the following at 5:19 PM on Feb 21:]

58

S.,

Regarding the Heb. 12 passage, I hesitate to equate the complete suppression of sexual impulses with God's "chastisement". I believe that "discipline" (that Greek word also is used to mean to train or instruct) means to have self-control. We need to be disciplined in work, in food, and like you said, in exercise. Likewise we need to be disciplined in our sexual activity, to reign in our desires to be meted out in a healthy and positive way.

Now, the Bible does not once mention this topic, and so it is up to us to speculate whether this falls within the realm of "impurity" or "sexual immorality" or even "lust". I truly believe that all conviction on this issue is personal, and each person needs to make up their own mind about it. I think it is wrong to judge anyone who thinks masturbation is not immoral, precisely because that is speculative and up to personal conviction.

One reason I think masturbation is not sinful is because it teaches you to appreciate and not to be offended by the body God gave you. Many Christians (especially young women) do manage to get this idea in their heads that sex (and their sexual feelings) is somehow dirty and wrong. It is a contradiction to say sex is beautiful but you better not be feeling any sexual feelings now ("young lady!"). That can only lead to guilt for their own God-given sexual natures.

Which is my second point. Like I said above, I think that the guilt is the most destructive element of this scenario. I do actually think that "victory" is impossible, if by "victory" you actually mean a feeling of victoriousness. Daily struggle is not victory. Instead, guilt and anguish beat down a person's soul until all hope in God is replaced with resentment.

(You can tell that this is from personal experience.) There is a real problem when the desire to be holy eventually leads one to despise the god they thought they loved so much, that they would rather deliberately choose hell than join his so-called heaven.

In my opinion, a healthy relationship with one's own body is 1) not immoral and 2) overwhelmingly supersedes the internal condemnation that is the alternative.

[59. Stephanie said the following at 6:18 PM on Feb 21:]

59

I'd like to get your opinion on this, because I'm sure I'm not the only girl who struggles with this: What about emotional obsessions with a member of the opposite sex? Maybe you wouldn't classify as lust per se, but what about that obsessive compulsion to think about him all the time? How can we deal with this, and where should we draw the line?

[60. J said the following at 6:44 PM on Feb 21:]

60

Carrie (#52),
I don't believe that loneliness is a sin. I think Jesus must have felt a bit lonely when all his disciples deserted him and when he was hanging on the cross. I think loneliness is a feeling, kind of like fear. I believe that fear is a feeling as well, but it becomes a sin when we act on it and meditate on it. (Look at all the references in the Bible to "Fear not." I guess by the same token, loneliness could turn into self-pity, which would be a sin, but I still can't quite figure how loneliness would be a sin in and of itself, anymore than sadness is a sin.

Jesus died for our sickness as well, but I don't believe sickness is a sin (although I strongly believe that our spiritual/emotional state greatly affects our physical state).

[61. April said the following at 11:12 PM on Feb 21:]

61

Eliza:
I am sorry and very sad that you have rejected God. He is and always has been there for you. I am sorry that you would prefer eternal punishment, pain, and sorrow to eternal peace, joy, and love in a relationship to God, leading me to believe that you never believed in Him in the first place. I will pray for you.
Part of your problem is one that many people assume--that peace and joy mean full-time happiness in this present world. That struggle is a bad thing and not a chance to grow in the Lord. In fact, the very issue of struggle and victory is particularly addressed in Hebrews 12. In case you don't have a Bible handy, I will quote much of it here.
Here is what God Himself says about struggle:
"Therefore..., let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. You have not resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him; for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.' It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons....He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed."
As can be seen from this and many other sections in His Word, God knows that our struggle against sin is just that--a struggle. God teaches us that Christianity is a literal battle (and not just spiritually). BUT, He also promises that He will be there with us; in fact, He HAS been there. He has been tempted as we have been, and He has suffered the punishment that we deserve but do not receive if we believe on Him. Yes, Christians can view the struggle as victory. Just the fact that there IS a struggle against sin is a victory against Satan. However, we are human and also view it as a struggle. It is a healthy struggle like exercise (as someone said earlier); it is an exercise for our soul. We can't strengthen our spiritual walk with God if we don't exercise it. Satan wants us to believe that this struggle is a bad thing, that God doesn't love us or even care about us, but this is not true. If He didn't care about us, He would let us wallow in our sins and leave us to suffer the consequences.
I am concerned that you relate holiness with something you can do yourself. God is the only One who can make you holy because He is the only One who is holy. Before we can have ANY real victory over our sins, we must accept God's gift of holiness and saving grace. We must recognize that we are sinners and that we are totally dependent on Him to release us from our sin through Christ, who suffered the punishment for our sin on the cross. When you are saved, God releases you from the bondage of sin. Yes, you will still sin; yes, there will be a struggle. No, life will not be easy or always happy--this world is ruled by Satan, and he wants no one to be happy. I can promise you that you can experience peace. Peace in knowing that there is Someone who cares about you, who will never leave you nor forsake you, who understands what you are going through, who is willing to forget what you have done against Him, who is willing to give you a second and then a millionth chance, who will help you if you ask Him, and who will ALWAYS be there for you. If this isn't the best relationship ever, I don't know what is. Just this knowledge alone should give you joy. I can promise you that this peace and joy can and will increase as you grow in your relationship with Him daily through prayer, praise, and reading His word. I can promise you that you will reach ultimate, eternal peace and joy when you join Him in heaven some day. You can even have this peace and joy through struggles. I have learned from some of the most persecuted (China) and most hindered people (severe physical difficulties) that struggles can bring you closer to God if you depend entirely on Him. They show daily that peace and joy do not depend on our physical circumstances but on our relationship to Him. God gives us this promise in I John 5:4 & 5, "...whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
I will finish with this. I have and am struggling with the sin of "self-pleasure." HOWEVER, through prayer and relying on God's grace, I am happy, no joyful, to say that I am experiencing victory over this sin! :)I do fall on occasion, but God has given me the power to say no and to overcome. In order to even begin to have victory, I had to stop relying on myself and rely on God, praying for His help whenever temptation arises. My struggle has brought me closer to the Lord, and I thank and praise Him for helping me and never giving up on me who so often fails Him. Paul ran the race and succeeded, and through God, so can I.

[62. Jo said the following at 9:15 AM on Feb 22:]

62

Whoa April, where did Eliza say she has 'rejected God'? And what right have you to say that she probably 'never believed in the first place'? You have no idea who she is or what her life involves. The first paragraph of your comment stopped me from reading any further.

[63. S. said the following at 9:45 AM on Feb 22:]

63

Eliza (58): First off, I want to make it clear that I am not attacking you as a person, only discussing the issue, which in my experience is a crucial one. :D I think you understand that, but I wanted to be sure.

I think the undergirding issue here is whether or not true victory is even possible, and what that looks like. I daresay that up until a little under a year ago, I was thinking along exactly the same lines as you. I had made significant headway, but it was always an underlying, nagging feeling of guilt.

It took God breaking me altogether in areas entirely separate, taking me to the very edge of despair so that, utterly exhausted, I had to beg Him for grace. And He gave it! He reached in and started touching me, changing me in ways I could sense even from day to day. I jumped into spiritual disciplines like Scripture meditation, seeking counsel from wise people and attacking underlying, sucking emotional wounds one by one. In my desperation, God was there. I have asked Him that I may never forget.

So victory is possible. I do not strive in the endless cycle of weary guilt every day. In fact, I don't even think about it for days and weeks at a time. It is possible. The links that Candice provides give some excellent advice to that end.

[64. obewan said the following at 10:26 AM on Feb 22:]

64

April at number 61 writes:

"I am sorry that you would prefer eternal punishment, pain, and sorrow to eternal peace, joy, and love in a relationship to God, leading me to believe that you never believed in Him in the first place."

I agree with Jo that you are putting words in Eliza's mouth that just are not there. What I heard her say (to paraphrase) is that many (unbelivers) reject God because they prefer to bask in the folly of their own sinful pleasures. That could be applied to drug addiction, illicit sex, or any other self-destructive behaviour, but not to "self pleasuring." Those other sins are sins against our own body and the Bible is more clear about the damnation that awaits those who will never repent from them.

[65. Eliza said the following at 1:41 PM on Feb 22:]

65

S.,

I definitely know that you are not attacking me. You have been nothing but genuine and gracious! And I really appreciate it:).

Maybe you're right about the victory. One of my best friends went through a really hard time recently when her pastor father walked out on his family, but she seems to have come to a place of "victory" (forgiveness and peace) about the whole thing. Just because I haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I think the main thing I'm learning right now is that the valleys are indeed as much a part of the journey as anything else. That there is no magic recipe of prayer & meditation to get a person "released from sin" or "closer to God" or whatever it is you want. Life is long, and heck, it might take that long just to come to a little glimmer of understanding. And it seems that I'm not in control of gaining that understanding. So I guess what I'm saying is, I just need to relax;).

Of course, relaxing doesn't mean "don't feel the pain." If anything it means relax into the pain. Whatever the pain is, I'm seeing that we cannot actually move forward until we take time to really understand where we are.

I still do not believe that masturbation is "sexual immorality", but that's just my opinion.

April,

I appreciate your sentiments, but you seem to see me as more simplistic than I really am. I have not rejected God--on the contrary, I believe I am now closer to discovering what a "real" relationship with Him is than ever before. In no way do I assume that the Christian life=full time peace and happiness. I just think it can't possibly mean full time depression and despair. Which is what my experience was at points in my life.

I have actually studied that Hebrews 12 passage quite a bit, doing Greek word studies of some of the verses. I still have more to learn.

obewan,

Thanks for defending me!! But actually, April was closer to what I meant to say:). I am not speaking about people who choose lives of "sin" for their own pleasure over lives of discipline with Heaven in mind. I am speaking of the distorted perspective that God is actually SUCH a bully that I would rather not be devoted to Him than to have to spend eternity under His thumb. I would probably continue an ethical, moral life, but with all my heart despise the god who I see as being the epitome of all things unjust and not good.

Obviously, like I said, this is a distorted picture. One that unfortunately has been nothing but re-emphasized by my youthful church experience. In a sense, April is right, and I do not really know this God of Love. If that is the case, it is not at all a result of rejecting Him. It is more a result of having been brought up under a betrayal of who He really is.

[66. Paulman said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 22:]

66

Candice, I don't think you were too harsh at all! You were pretty straight-forward, but I think from the TONE of your writing, I could tell that you were trying to be empathetic, patient, and understanding. Sometimes I get the impression from another writer on Boundless (i.e. John Thomas - whom I hope won't mind a bit of constructive criticism) that he has a bit too much of a matter-of-fact, I-know-the-answer, "you just need to submit to God and the Scriptures" attitude, but I don't get that impression from you, including this most recent post.

One thing I would like to add to your response, though, is that the woman who wrote in is probably in great need for deep, meaningful connections with fellow women. I listen a lot to New Life Live, which features many Christian psychologists, and one thing they will often reinforce is that our troubles with sexual addiction as singles is often related to lack of quality, meaningful same-sex friend relationships.

[67. April said the following at 9:51 PM on Feb 22:]

67

Eliza: I am overjoyed in hearing that I read your post wrong! :) I thought your "I" meant you yourself despised God. I will pray for you in your walk with Him. Depression, unless it is a full-fledged psychological illness, comes from depending on our circumstances more than God. I've learned this one from experience. I know of people that live in a state that could drive anyone to despair; however, somehow, they have found a peace and a joy and a faith in God that is unbelievably powerful--they achieved this through fervent prayer. I know I am lightyears away from this kind of relationship with God, but I also know that it's possible. Even those closest to God faced despair (I'm thinking David especially), but God has always shown Himself true. I do not agree with your opinion on masturbation, though.

Obewan: How is masturbation NOT a sin against the body? Masturbation is a sin in every way. I have done a lot of research in the topic recently. Studies that are not conducted by those in support of the pornography industry reveal that masturbation has become or very easily becomes a replacement for the sexual fulfillment that we are supposed to have with our spouse. Polls reveal that the a very large percentage of women get more satisfaction from masturbation than from sex with their partners. Masturbation denies the person part of the pleasure that they are supposed to get only from their spouse. Plus, in my experience, masturbation can easily become something we have to do to get the sexual fulfillment our bodies need--the sexual fulfillment that God wants our spouses to give us instead.

Also, masturbation IS illicit sex. Sex is more than just the insertion of one organ into another (sorry, hard to be tactful here); it is also emotional and even spiritual. By meeting these physical/emotional/spiritual needs with someone/thing other than our spouse, we commit illicit sex.

The marriage relationship is supposed to be one of sole dependence on the other person. No, we may be able to live without them, but we are to demonstrate that we need them. By meeting our needs outside of the spouse, we are sinning against our spouse by betraying our dependence on them.

Masturbation is, most importantly, a sin against God. God gave us sexual desires, but He intends for us to act them out upon our spouse. Otherwise, why not just let us all meet our needs with just anyone like the animals do? We all have many other sinful desires, but does this mean that we just "scratch the itch" and act on these desires? As Christians, we are to have patience and wait on God's will. We detour His will by edging around his intentions for our sexual desires. Essentially, we are saying to God that we do not trust Him, nor do we need Him to provide all our needs for us. We show a trust in ourselves rather than God. This is sin against God. Even if something is not in and of itself harmful (little white lie anyone?) does not mean that it is not just as sinful as a "big" sin. We are to put our complete trust in the One who provides all things, even for the sparrows.

Damnation does not define sin--God does. We as Christians sin every day, but we do not face damnation. No, God does not directly define the sin of masturbation, but perhaps this is because it falls under the categories of so many other sins--the sins of selfishness, faithlessness, and pride to name a few.

(I have noticed that this topic has incited of lot responses involving "I think, I believe, in MY opinion." We need to keep in mind that it is not "my opinion" that counts, it is God. Make sure that your opinions and beliefs agree with what God says in His Word.)

S.: You are totally right about victory being possible! :)

Stephanie:
Emotional obsession is usually called infatuation. This can be hard to get over too. Perhaps one of our great Boundless writers can write an article on this! It can be a lot like the sin of masturbation in that it is about how "I" feel, not a true interest in the other person. It isn't love (I'm glad you don't call it that and recognize that it isn't). Love is not an obsession--in fact, love would be a willingness to let go of someone even if it is against my interests. Infatuation is wanting to keep someone because they help me to feel fulfilled or whole or help me to meet needs. I don't have a lot of advice to give on this one. The best I can say is claim God's promises that He will provide all for you and that He will BE all for you. Focus on your relationship to Christ. Remember that we can be complete only in Christ; nothing else will make us whole.

[68. Mandy said the following at 1:12 AM on Feb 23:]

68

Candice -

Thank you so much for writing this article! I am glad that someone is finally willing to admit that women also struggle in this area and need guidance. It frustrates me that many churches seem to pretend that this issue doesn't exist.

One question, though: Why do you guys at Boundless insist that masturbation is a sin? In your article, you quoted Theophilus, who said that masturbation is a sin because it ALWAYS includes sinful sexual fantasies. But what if it doesn't? The Bible never says that masturbation is a sin, so why can't it be a God-honoring activity? If done without immoral thoughts, it seems this could be a good way that our Creator gave us to rid ourselves of destructive sexual tension. If sexual tension is allowed to build up, it seems that sexual thoughts and sinful behavior would be more likely. I'm confused about why there's so much disagreement on this topic between Christians. (I found an article on the Youth Specialties site that was opposite of Boundless' views on masturbation - and both want to help me get closer to God!) I would be interested to hear more about this topic from you!!!

http://www.youthspecialties.com/articles/topics/
sexuality/masturbation.php

[69. Jo said the following at 1:40 AM on Feb 23:]

69

"Depression, unless it is a full-fledged psychological illness, comes from depending on our circumstances more than God."

Depression IS a full-fledged psychological illness. If it's rooted in our circumstances and easily changed by adjusting circumstances/outlook/behaviour, it's not depression. I realise the term 'depression' is often used in both contexts, but it shouldn't be.

[70. Stephanie said the following at 9:12 AM on Feb 23:]

70

Thanks, April.

I agree with what you said. It's easy for me to be all proud and haughty when people talk about sexual thoughts because it's just not something that I struggle with, and my first reaction is, "Just get over it!" But then I realized that my struggle with "emotional lust" is just like others' struggles with sexual lust: they have just as difficult time stopping their sexual thoughts as I do stopping my (non-sexual) obsessive thoughts about a guy. And I know that if I obsess over a guy in a compulsive and unhealthy way, I feel dirty afterwards, just like someone would who struggled with sexual thoughts.

Thanks, you had good insights.

[71. Melly Reed said the following at 1:32 PM on Feb 23:]

71

Hello Candice,

First, I want to say how much I appreciate your treatment of this delicate subject. Sexual sin of any kind is just as much of an issue now as it probably was in the congregation of Corinth (by implication) so I would say to all with a disclaimer not to back off a "walled garden" to your sexual purity with too much grace and forgiveness: Either way we lean too much can excerbate the problem. So getting at the "why" we're doing it is as much a part of the answer as the pragmatism of behavior replacement. I'm including a blog apologetic: "ForthWrite: Song of Solomon - God's view of Sex and Intimacy Missed Out By Most" URL (http://mreed.iupui.epsilen.com) (See my Blog ForthWrite, entry 2/2/2008) to help address the "why" as it deals more with that issue. I encourage readers here(if any feel moved to do so) to note especially the 2 quotes by G. K. Chesterton. Once you and I understand why we're doing it (and yes, I have had my bout with this particular sin when younger)then your prayers and replacement activities will be much more effective and you won't want to go back to this sin so that it becomes a "besetting" sin. Why? Because your spirit will WANT to be cooperating with the Holy Spirit and that's what we're aiming for, isn't it? Two more points I'll leave you with: we were made to desire intimacy spiritually and as humans to marry that desire into sexual epression. That's the root of all this, the good root. But as C. S. Lewis said, and please hear me on this, all evil (sin) is only "spoiled goodness". That is very important to grasp here. Now think back to the quote in my blog essay (if you read it) from Chesterton about a "vulgar joke being a subtle and spritual idea." This is a pretty nasty trick of the enemy to divert your's and mine natural desire for sacred intimacy, which must start with and be fufilled in God first before all other relationships, and turn it inward to self-gratification which is a form of Idolatry. Think about the wedding vows when the words repeat "With my body, I thee worship." Who are you an I worshipping at that point when we masterbate to fill this sacred desire? So getting our minds off the idea that sex is just "natural", a body function, and realizing that you and I have got ahold of a very powerful and sacred gift that we want to reserve like the special china for the right occassion is the first step to conquering this problem. It is a sad reality, but we don't teach sacredness as effectively as we could in the family, we don't treat the first relationships, i.e., mother and father, daughter and son as sacred as they should be. This establishes sacredness in other areas as well and sacredness is all about understanding proper boundaries: God is sacred (set apart). You and I are set apart, too. Our body parts are set apart. Our feelings/need for intimacy with God are innate and we are all on the search for that and emotional stake get very high when puberty sets in. At the same time, our feelingsneed for intimacy with our eartly father and our earthly mother hopefully get met in a godly way and set apart when we are growing up, but if they don't as puberty sets in, we start manifesting and trying to "marry" those feelings in ways that are not sacred but enslaved. Our body parts are discussed in this same fashion by Paul in showing our freedom from sin's grasp when we become a different kind of slave: to righteousness.(Romans 1-16 chapters) We all have room to improve in this area. But once we return to the concept of sacredness and believe that it is possible even in this postmodern day, God can "make our paths smooth" (Proverbs 3:6) as He has promised us and we won't have to struggle near as much over these things so we can press on to the other maturities and blessings, one of which is marriage without the blush of unconquered sin. It can be done, my dear brothers and sisters. Christ will do it in you!

[72. Julia said the following at 5:05 PM on Feb 23:]

72

Thank you so much Candace for writing this. I know this was not an easy piece to write. Your knowledge and wisdom have helped me many times in life.

I don't know where I stand on this issue to be very frank. Both sides make very compelling scripture based arguments.

For many years I struggled. At first it was nothing but an accidental discovery connected with a pleasurable ending. From ages 11-16 it was only curiosity. I really thought it was just a phase that I'd grow weary of. Never lust or anything else was tied to it.

16-21 it was nothing more than that "itch to scratch" thing - I did it to control myself in my dating life. It was very successful and again I never thought anything sinful or lustful but I can say that all of those years were FULL of guilt. A few years ago

I finally mustered up the courage to talk to my closest Christian friend about it. I wanted to come clean and have an accountability partner so that I could stop what was a seeming physical addiction. I also needed to know whether or not I was alone. I felt so dirty and alone. That was the wrong decision because my friend completely freaked out and our relationship was never the same again. That just made me feel dirtier than ever.

After that encounter though I dug deeper into the Bible and read online trying to see if I was or was not wrong. I still don't know - as to me this is something that in moderation without lust may be ok.

Thank you other posters for making me realize that I'm not alone. That other very devoted Christian women struggle here too. Though I am not brave enough to find a new accountability partner this article and your comments have given me the courage to push ahead and try to move past this 'phase' of my life once and for all.

[73. April said the following at 12:07 AM on Feb 24:]

73

Julia: Perhaps when you were using masturbation to control yourself during your dating life, you were using it to act out lustful thoughts you experienced earlier toward the one you were dating. Lust is simply a sexual urge toward a person; therefore, perhaps you were acting out that sexual urge for your date in a different way, but it was still lust.

People have a very negative connotation concerning lust, and they should! However, one is not sinning if they are lusting after their spouse. Lust within a marriage relationship becomes wrong when it overrides love. Just a thought.

Our society is very sexual, which means that sexual sins increase due to increased exposure. The Bible says that as a man thinks, so is he. Because we happen to be bombarded with sex all the time, we are also thinking about it more. No one should be surprised that this is the case. I think people have trouble talking about this subject because it is so intensely personal. It is easier to talk about it when you are anonymous. However, because sexual temptation can be so strong, many people reserve any kind of talk concerning their personal sexual problems for their spouse or counselor. Besides, we just never know what kind of response we'll get.

[74. Katie B said the following at 9:16 PM on Feb 24:]

74

April- you raise a good point, that the sexual urges she was trying to control while dating were probobly brought about by the dating. However I think it a little strange to call it lust if she was unaware of it.
I think the main damage, notice I dont say sin, although I believe it is sin, it is the effects of the action that make it so. the damage of scratching the itch is that the God given sexual appetite, which was designed for communion and consumation with another person, is turned inward, sex becomes an individual matter, and the sexual response is divorced from the sacred intamacy that it was originally meant for. Sex is an incredible picture of the intamact that GOd wants with us, sexual sin happens when we distort that.

[75. Eliza said the following at 8:29 AM on Feb 25:]

75

In case Julia hasn't read the above 70+ posts, I'd just like to make sure that there is more than one view represented to her.

Whether masturbation is a sin is not at all a settled issue in the church. Many conservative Christians (including Dr. James Dobson, as someone mentioned above) do not think it is a sin, or even "harmful" or "damaging".

The "damaging" effects, as Katie B (#74) put it, are not solely or obviously a consequence of masturbation. The guilt and struggle to avoid it can be equally if not more damaging both to one's own self-image AND one's sexual relationship with their spouse. Let's not assume that alleged purity of actions automatically equals a happy sex life. Happy sex in marriage is a combination of grace, communication, vulnerability, risk-taking (definitely being ready and willing to try new things) and a BIG sense of humor. In my opinion, the over-spiritualization of sexuality and the single person can--and often does--indeed harm future sexual happiness.

I do not think that masturbation is a sin (see my reasoning in post #58).

I also highly disagree with April that the definition of "lust" is "simply a sexual urge toward a person". That is a dangerous over-simplification. Some may say it is better to be safe than sorry, but I believe it is equally wrong to call everything a sin as it is to call nothing a sin. Webster's defines "lust" as "intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness". That is, a sexual craving, akin to covetousness or greed. As you known, lust is included in the seven deadly sins, and is put on the same level as greed, gluttony, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. Just as "pride" does not mean "feeling happy for who you are" and "gluttony" does not mean "hunger", so "lust" does not mean "sexual arousal".

Sexual arousal is a biological function akin to hunger, in that it is a completely natural physical occurrence. To say that sexual arousal is a sin (because nobody has the power to limit the physical fact of arousal to the presence of a certain person) is to declare God's design of humanity as flawed.

It is my personal opinion that the Evangelical church's obsession with its own idea of sexual purity is counterproductive in that it closets all desire, which people inevitably act out in actual (as opposed to imagined) perversions. Christians in search of holy living are creeping more and more towards Pharisaical control of their own righteousness, blocking out the spirit of God's law and actual understanding of His character in the process.

[76. Julia said the following at 9:17 AM on Feb 25:]

76

Thanks to the above posters. I have read all of the posts. More than anything I was writing to get some thoughts off of my mind. :)

I see all arguments and everyone's points. I'm just not sure what to think, which is why I am taking it off of me and putting it at the feet of Jesus.

[77. xeres said the following at 10:13 AM on Feb 25:]

77

Eliza,

You have raised good points. However, I do not appreciate the fact holiness and purity is seen as Pharisaical at all. I mean, the American dating culture overall is hedonistic, and comercialized in a bad way. Frankly, how can any person tolerate all the balony what is going on in the dating relam? However, I don't see the courtship movement to be a solution for as long as people in general have screwed-up convictions about relationships. Plus, counter-cultural doesn't always mean bibical. Nevertheless, I despised the hook-up, bed hopping, sexually exploitive culture.

What's wrong with encouraging Christian to be celibate/chaste until marriage anyway? It is good idea and I find it more romantic that I'm sharing myself sexually with only my spouse.

I'm not trying make you feel awful or saying all this because I don't like what you have to say. You made good points about sexuality and you remind a lot of people that we are sexual. I wish you said it with the recognition that practicing celibacy being marriage or throughout one's life as a ummarried person does not mean that person is less of sexual person nor does it mean they are not sexually repressed at all. This is why I hate movies like "The 40-Year-old Virgin".

[78. Katie B said the following at 12:03 PM on Feb 25:]

78

Eliza, I agree with you that sexual arousal is not the same as lust, and is a natural function of our bodies, designed by God, similar to hunger. I have trouble with using that to justify masturbation, however. Have you ever met a hard core anorexic? I have, between denying the natural function of hunger to tell us we should eat, and taking fiber pills and appetite suppressants so that she doesnt feel hunger, she is destroying her relationship with food. As Christians we can also go to either extreme, by denying sexual arousal as bad and not preparing for healthy sexual intamacy. But we can also deny what our sexual desires are meant to lead to by mastubating, like fiber pills, we might be able to 'control' our arousal, but we are still missing the point of what sex was meant for... intamacy, and training our minds and bodys to separate the desire for intamcy from the desire for sex.

[79. Eliza said the following at 12:45 PM on Feb 25:]

79

Xeres (#77),

I never meant to condone or even justify "American dating practices". I really hope that didn't come across in my post. I think that casual sex and jumping partners is absolutely against God's plan for us. And I will say it specifically--premarital sexual involvement is a sin. I hope there is no doubt about what I think about that.

My point is specifically about occasional masturbation in order to keep oneself chaste. Masturbation is not sex. Nobody pretends that it is intimacy of any kind. It is not "making love". It is an entirely separate thing altogether, something that is available in order to keep oneself contentedly celibate. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND staying sexually pure before marriage, so that all your sexual experiences are with your spouse. However, masturbation is not really a "sexual experience". I believe it is God's gift to singles to keep them safely pure for their future spouse. I'm sorry if I didn't make my position clearer in my last post.

Katie B. (#78)

Using the food analogy, exactly like you said, I would say that trying desperately not to have any kind of sexual release is like being anorexic. It is the total denial of your desires so much that you go crazy and eventually binge. Not healthy at all. Likewise, gluttony is definitely bad. As is sexual obsession.

What I'd say to your comment about missing the point about what sex is for is this: masturbation is not sex. By "controlling" our arousal, we are free to appreciate all the spiritual and emotional intimacy that sex brings. Likewise, by eating steadily instead of starving ourselves, we are able to really value a delicious meal. If we starved ourselves we would be so ravenous that we wouldn't appreciate the quality of the food going in.

~~~~~~~

I feel awful about having sounded like I think holiness and purity are Pharisaical and bad. What I meant to say is that the Evangelical church has a Pharisaical idea about what holiness and purity are. True chastity is trusting God for your future while appreciating your own sexuality (masturbation perhaps being a necessary part of that) and treating others as brothers and sisters in Christ.

In sum: no to free love; yes to healthy sexuality. I hope that makes more sense :).

[80. Christina said the following at 1:15 PM on Feb 25:]

80

Katie and the others with this point of view:
I appreciate the concern for wanting to preserve sexual intimacy for marriage. I just wonder how much credit your giving masturbation for satisfying that hunger. I know there are reports from the male psych side that shows that prolific use of porn and masturbation can lead to a decline in interest for the real thing. But is that a pornography downfall or a masturbation downfall?

Personal experience, masturbation (or the more conservative "scratching the itch") doesn't satisfy my need for physical and emotional intimacy. I still crave it the way I'm supposed to, but I feel I have more control over natural urges when I've "scratched the itch". The itch is still there and isn't going anywhere. The things I would enjoy doing to a man I'm madly in love with and married to seriously don't compare to what we're discussing here.

As I'm still unclear about this entire issue, I appreciate hearing the other point of view, i just don't feel that this particular point has been addressed satisfactorily.

And I seriously feel very weird discussing this in a place where men are fully capable of reading it >.<

[81. Julia said the following at 4:47 PM on Feb 25:]

81

Christina, when you say:

"Katie and the others with this point of view:
I appreciate the concern for wanting to preserve sexual intimacy for marriage. I just wonder how much credit your giving masturbation for satisfying that hunger...Personal experience, masturbation (or the more conservative "scratching the itch") doesn't satisfy my need for physical and emotional intimacy. I still crave it the way I'm supposed to, but I feel I have more control over natural urges when I've "scratched the itch". The itch is still there and isn't going anywhere. The things I would enjoy doing to a man I'm madly in love with and married to seriously don't compare to what we're discussing here."

You are very right there. That is exactly where I stand on things. It does not remove any guilt that may be there and that still helps to muddy the waters some but that is said far better than I could ever express it.

I know that especially in my younger years it was nothing inherently 'sexual' at all. It was more of an oh wow my body does that type thing.

Though I agree that it's probably not the most worship filled activity - and without a doubt something I'd rather live without - I'm not totally convinced that without the lust or pornography issue it's not as bad as what others say.

[82. Fred said the following at 5:35 AM on Feb 26:]

82

The question is to those who think masturbation isn't a sin - do you do it without thinking about anyone? (because that's the only way it can possibly not be sinful - when Jesus said if you sin in your heart etc.) And do you defend masturbation based on anything biblical?

[83. Katie B said the following at 8:29 AM on Feb 26:]

83

Eliza: I dont think that it is avoiding release that makes us 'sexually anorexic' but the fact that, with food, hunger should lead to eating food, for nourishment and health. I am not one of the 'sex is only for the babies' advocates, but I think sexual desire should lead us to the full, healthy consumation of that, which would be sexual intamcy in marriage. Masturbation, with or without fantacies, divorces sexual desire and release from intamacy, we will still crave intamacy, of course, we were built that way, but things become muddy, I speak as someone who has gone through periods of sexual arousal and release without intamacy, though not masturbation, though arguably any sexual release without intamacy would be akin to it. Sex, desire and fulfillment was meant to foster intamacy, and changing that to make it an individual process can be harmful in the long run.

Just to say, I am saying this completely apart from sin, guilt, or shame. I dont know if masturbation is sin, but everything that is permissible is not nessesarily beneficial, and we tend to see better in hindsight, after something seemingly innocuous shows consequences we hadnt anticipated.

[84. Christina said the following at 8:35 AM on Feb 26:]

84

Fred and Julia, cuz my response individually somehow hinges on the same verses...>.<

Fred, my only biblical defense (and this is because the bible doesn't say anything AGAINST masturbation - just fornification [which i think is actually having sex...not sure though]), is all of Romans 14, but these verses in particular:
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin." - Romans 14:22-23

There are times when I feel guilty for masturbation - usually when it is accompanied by pornographic use or fantasies in my head. I don't do it often, but it has happened...not gonna lie. Those times, I'm usually overcome by guilt and I'm quite certain what I did was a sin.

However, when that certain time of the month rolls around when my body is craving sex, "scratching the itch" gives me relief without thinking about a man or using other materials - simply reveling in the intense pleasure God created my body to achieve...and yes...Its possible for me not to fanatasize. In those times, there is no guilt accompanying it. Not to mention that (how appropriate is it to use this word on this forum? Replace it if necessary) orgasms help with relieving the pain of menstrual cramps >.< (Its true...I read it, i tried it, it works!!!) Considering that is a very big problem for me, to the point that pain relievers don't work on occassion, this is a help.

To Julia, this verse would also lead me to advice you not to participate in this act when it leads to guilt. Some part of you doesn't know whether it is right or wrong. And as long as you are unsure, I do think it would be a sin for you to do it...(per the above verse). Pray about it. Is it acceptable or not? Read Romans 14. It gives some good guidance for when scripture doesn't deal with something explicitly. At least, its what I use until I've found a scripture that addresses something explicitly...or until my walk with God leads me to a point where I do begin to feel it's wrong.

Seriously, if your primary goal is to come to a closer walk with God and you are focusing on loving and obeying him, then this stuff will work its self out. There have been many things that I didn't think were wrong and I had no guilt over that a conviction in its wrongness grew overtime. There are other things that that has not happened to. This is one of them. Either that will come with time, or there really isn't anything wrong with it...

It sounds so relativistic...its so strange. I never thought the bible would allow for something so relative as this argument, but that verse and chapter seem to lead to that.

I'm up for hearing any other arguments.

[85. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:51 AM on Feb 26:]

85

Fred, if you read some of the comments posted, some women
(1) don't fantasize.
(2) find that by not engaging in "self-pleasure" they are more prone to commit other sins. So it comes down to "commit this one sin or commit three other sins that have more of a ripple effect than that one sin". There are times when one feels like they are in a Catch-22 when it comes to "self-pleasure".
I realize that I am referring to masturbation as a sin. I fall in line with those that have voiced it is outside of God's design for sexuality. I don't think masturbation was occuring in the Garden. It is a result of the fall.
Although in an age of delayed marriage, increased irresponsibility, and a host of other issues that Boundless seeks to address, it shouldn't come as a surprise that females seek to meet needs that the Lord has given us.

[86. Christina said the following at 9:03 AM on Feb 26:]

86

Yeay for math skills being detrimental to my vocabulary. I won't address spelling or grammar mistakes (though I do profusely apologize)...

Fornication (ha...fornification...):
Voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

I always thought that was what adultery meant...got confused when both words were used in the same sentence and used to thing fornication was masturbation...actually, adultery is more specialized than that...

Adultery:
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

[87. Fred said the following at 4:29 PM on Feb 26:]

87

That was one of my concerns - that masturbation could only be ok if you were not thinking about another person.

But I'm also concerned about people's reasoning for doing it - if it stops you from another sin then isn't it still wrong? (although a 'lesser' sin is better than a 'greater' one but it could become a cop-out that's all); just because you have a desire doesn't make it right (or wrong); and just because it has benefits doesn't make it right - I'm not saying it's right or wrong but we have to be careful that we don't use these as excuses.

[88. Katie B said the following at 9:16 PM on Feb 26:]

88

I agree with fred. trying to choose the lesser evil is a slippery slope. I dont know if it is a sin, in the traditional sense of the word. although I do believe it always has negative consequences sooner or later.
I have a pastoral ministry professor who says "if your going to sin, sin big" meaning, take ownership of whats going on, the sins of omission do more spiritual damage than the sins of commission. Shame and guilt are terrible, but they drive you to the cross, denial and justification do the opposite.

[89. Julia said the following at 12:27 PM on Feb 28:]

89

Just to clarify, I was not advocating anything. I was simply offering up a few differing views. Straight up, I think that avoiding even the appearance of evil applies to behaviour behind closed doors.

[90. Richard said the following at 11:27 PM on Jul 21:]

90

I have struggled with this issue for a long time in my life.

First of all, no where in the Bible does it specifically say that masturbation is a sin. The Bible condemns all sorts of sexual activities, such as beastality, homosexuality, and premarital sex, but never mentions masturbation. If it is a sin (and a serious one), then why doesn't the Bible condemn it as one ? We don't want to become like the Pharisees, adding man-made laws to God's laws, and then condemning people who don't follow the laws which are ours, not neccessarily God's.

All Christian morality has to be defined by what is beneficial to our relationship with God and with others. If something harms our relationship to God, or to others, then it is wrong. I can't see how masturbation affects either relationship.

Having said that, I don't think masturbation is that helpful either. It is usually a gateway for evil thoughts to come into the mind because it is so closely linked with pornography. It is very rare for it to not be linked with harmful pornographic thoughts.

I personally have decided not to masturbate, but I want to make it clear that decision is one that the Holy Spirit prompted me to make in my life; I can't speak for what the Holy Spirit prompts people to do in thier life.

[1. Matthew said the following at 3:15 PM on Feb 19:]

1

As someone who has also struggled with a long-term sin that I would commit over and over again, it was the grace and forgiveness on my accountability partner that always broke through to me and helped me stay encouraged and heartened to keep fighting. He likes to tell the story about a visitor to a monastery asking the abbot what they did all day there, to which the abbot replied, "We fall down, and we get up again." We can never over-emphasize the mercy of God to those who are truly saved and trying to overcome sin. I'm glad that you chose to post all of this to add on.

On the other hand, we also have to be vigilant about making sure that we've got all the weapons at our disposal and that we're using them when we're fighting sin, so I'm also glad that you gave the solid advice that you did.

[2. DannieA said the following at 4:13 PM on Feb 19:]

2

Candice,

I thought it was a good response to such an honest and vulnerable question.

I personally believe that if grace and forgiveness is taught in a way that people know it's there when we ask for it, then we wouldn't have to always deal with e-mails regarding that...

in this case, the reader wanted some practical advice to help her overcome and she sounded genuine.

A pat answer of "grace and forgiveness" without practical and biblical advice would have been a disservice.

Anyways I thought it was great that you would publish that as sometimes we don't deal with sexual sin as much because of "blushness".

[3. TN1 said the following at 4:20 PM on Feb 19:]

3

I think Candice might have been a little bit soft on the subject, if anything.

This is a link I found in the news that is somewhat related: http://www.local6.com/news/15338180/detail.html

I'm waiting to see if Boundless will have anything to say about this!

[4. Jean said the following at 4:49 PM on Feb 19:]

4

I dont know what to say other than thank you. It is a great article even if it does make people blush. Its kind of funny that this would make people blush but yet topics such as homosexuality and abortion are encouraged to be talked about and confessed. Thanks for caring more about womens struggles and salvation than about how many shades of red someone reading this would turn.

[5. Sue said the following at 4:51 PM on Feb 19:]

5

I thought you did a very good job of answering her question in a very helpful, non-pat (if that makes sense!) way. As someone who has struggled with this in the past, I found your advice very real. I knew there was grace and forgiveness, but I needed to know how to overcome it and not need to forever be running back to God begging forgiveness for a sin I'd committed yet AGAIN.

So -- keep up the good work! God is using you.

[6. Carrie (the original one) said the following at 5:22 PM on Feb 19:]

6

Candice, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. I thought I could have written that letter.
I didn't think you were too hard. If anything maybe soft. The practical advise was excellent. I love that you were honest about the hardest part of day for those who struggle with these sorts of sins (night). It's great to know I'm not alone in this battle.

[7. anonymous said the following at 5:39 PM on Feb 19:]

7

I think you addressed the topic well. Several years ago, I struggled with the same problem, and felt unable to talk to anyone about it, though if I were a young man and not a young woman, it would have been expected that I struggled with self-pleasure. I have shared my testimony in this area with a couple of close friends and my younger sister, in an effort to broach a difficult topic that no one ever seems to discuss, and also to let them know that as impossible as it feels to someone mired in sexual sin, God is able to deliver and to keep you. But the truth is, when I finally cared enough about my salvation than I did about transient pleasure, I sincerely asked God to deliver me, and He did. Completely. And despite 5 years of chaste singleness since then, He has fully kept me.

[8. Adam T. said the following at 5:54 PM on Feb 19:]

8

The letter writer says:

I want to have a healthy marriage, and I'm terrified of having to tell whomever I would marry of all the things I've done.

Well, I would accept her for who she is. I hope she finds that reassuring.

[9. Beth said the following at 6:13 PM on Feb 19:]

9

I also very glad you answered this lovely lady's question, though it is unfortunate that she had to turn to you after confiding in her parents and several others. I am glad this woman was brave enough to seek help. The fact that she continues to reach out says to me that she has not lost all hope. She has not given up, thanks be to God.

At my Christian college, it was basically assumed that all the young men had struggled with porn/masturbation - I am told that nearly every men's chapel addressed the topic (wasn't there myself, but I trust my source :)). I never heard anyone in authority address the problem for women. You would have thought women just didn't struggle with lust. This makes such sexual sin incredibly lonely and isolating (and I reckon this kind of sexual sin for both genders is lonely and isolating enough).

I think this is related to a point Lauren Winner makes in her book, Real Sex: one lie the Church tells is that women don't really want to have sex [my paraphrase, don't have the book with me]. Not sure where this comes from - it's like we have looked at statistics that say, "men want to have sex more often than women" and extrapolate from there to "women must not be very sexual AT ALL." At least that's the message I got from my experience.

So thanks, again, for answering the question. Simply acknowledging that this woman is not the only woman with this problem is radical enough.

[10. A girl said the following at 6:15 PM on Feb 19:]

10

I didn't find the article very helpful at all.

Any time I read admonishment to not indulge in self-pleasure, it's all about how the images that go along with it harm our minds. Set us up for false expectations. Corrupt us with fantasies.

That doesn't apply to me at all. It's like scratching an itch and my mind is blank. I don't fantasise about anyone because that would just make me feel empty. So from that perspective, I need a 'better' reason than what's given in the article for me to consider the act wrong. Or maybe it's not wrong and I'm not an addict, given that I generally ignore those urges and just chalk them up as part of the female hormonal cycle.

I see it as something TOTALLY SEPARATE to love and marriage.

---

An ex-boyfriend once gave me some porn to watch, saying it would be "useful for our future relationship (!!!)" (you can see why I broke up with him). It left me feeling bored (as well as disgusted and horrified).

---

I'd love to hear if other (female) readers think the way I do.

[11. Eliza said the following at 7:21 PM on Feb 19:]

11

I agree with A girl. Although I didn't think Candice's article was too "harsh" (I've heard much harsher!) I don't think it was too soft either. This is just such a difficult subject because like others have said, no one talks about sexual desire and the single woman. It is extremely lonely, and I spent the majority of my life from pre-teen years to mid-twenties just wracked with guilt. Regardless of how much you exercise or pray or stay away from anything sexualized, you just cannot eliminate your sexuality. It's like trying to eliminate hunger. The more you try to stay away, the more of an obsession it becomes. And don't tell me I just needed to "give it to Jesus". Believe me, I spent years in tearful prayer.

For me, the guilt was more destructive than anything else could have been. It has caused deep, deep wounds with my relationship with my mother (who I looked to for accountability and got a less than supportive response) and my relationship with God. I feel just awful for people who feel like they are sinners because God created them as sexual beings.

That being said, porn isn't helpful to anyone's perspective on healthy sex. I wouldn't advocate it. But feeling guilty for being a healthy sexual being is also not beneficial. I hope that, if anything else, people find freedom from the guilt which is so torturous and immobilizing.

(The reason I say I felt guilty up until my mid-twenties is because that is when I got married. The guilt I felt actually ended up being somewhat of a blessing, because it was no problem at all for me to offer grace to my husband for his previous sexual encounters. Nevertheless, if I could go back and do it over again, I wish I could have been freer from the guilt.)

[12. Osayi E. said the following at 8:01 PM on Feb 19:]

12

Thank you very much...

I am learning everyday I read a new entry on boundless, but this entry greatly touched me as a female, because when I was struggling, there weren't many places I could go, or people I could talk to. I thank you for speaking the truth because that is really what one needs to hear when struggling.

It's nice to know about grace and forgiveness, but it is impossible to truly understand the importance of grace and forgiveness if you don't understand the depth of the sin.

I only started to understand God's grace and forgiveness when I realized that my sin did not define me, it just meant that I did not truly understand the power God has already given me.

I thank God for you.

[13. Rachael said the following at 8:31 PM on Feb 19:]

13

Hi Candice,

I just wanted to thank you for your sensitivity, humility, and respect in the way you treat your readers. I like this line of your follow-up post: "...If you are truly a follower of Christ, you have access to the power that brought Him back to life. " We should always remember that HIS power is greater than ANY sin! Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."

[14. Rachael said the following at 8:56 PM on Feb 19:]

14

P.S.

One thing that might help people with dealing with sin or lack of discipline in whatever area might be having a trusted accountability partner.

For me, I find that meeting with someone once in awhile to discuss the Bible pushes me. I still slack, but then I end up trying hard to catch up or come close to catching up to where I should be when we meet.

In Candice's reply to the letter, she wrote: "What you need are believers who won't blush when you confess your sin; ones who are honest about sin's grip and are willing to walk through this with you."

I'm not really sure how people can find trustworthy accountability partners (well maybe through church friends, or family, but that involves risk), but here are a couple of accountability blog posts people might be interested in; it might give ideas of questions people could ask each other:
http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2008/02/my-friends-are-so-awkward.html

and

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2008/02/7-tough-questions-to-ask-your-friends.html

While I don't have any sin accountability partners, I think it's neat that people have them. Part of me would like to have one, but a large part of me doesn't want to share all my sins with a good friend or a family member or with anyone for that matter or ask them if I could share all my known sins with them. I think it would be good if there was sensitivity and love in accountability settings, though, and honestly I think a lot of people have different degress of sensitivity and patience. I guess it would take a lot of courage and vulnerability to share your sins with someone, especially when you don't know how they'd react. Anyway I'd encourage people to check out those links, in case it inspires them to ask and get asked challenging questions.

[15. xeres said the following at 9:07 PM on Feb 19:]

15

Part of the reason the subject is hard to tackle is because there's a huge disagreement on what is the difference between lust (which is against God's vision of sexuality) and healthy sexual desire. It is truly important to know the difference between the two. Anything that blurs the line between the two is deterimental to truly tackling the issue of sexuality.

How does anyone know the difference between lust and healthy sexual desire? I know the answer but I want see if any of the readers are able to articulate the difference.

[16. Talia said the following at 1:24 AM on Feb 20:]

16

I rather lean with what "A Girl" said (#10). **This is going to be blunt, and I understand greatly if it is not posted**

I couldn't really understand why the woman who wrote felt ashamed, because to me masturbation (as a female) is just an itch. I don't think about anyone or anything; there is no fantasizing.

That's why I find it difficult to understand why, *if* there is no fantasizing or whatever, it's such a big deal. I'm not looking at porn, or thinking about a man from a class, etc...

I don't know if this will be posted, but in general I would be interested to see more Boundless info about this. I know for me personally and several of my friends, we can't understand why the church has an issue with "female self-pleasure." Yes, I want to get married, and until then if I get an "itch," then a quick 30 seconds takes care of things and I get back to work.

Again, would be interested to see Boundless adress this and more on female sexuality.

[17. James said the following at 4:57 AM on Feb 20:]

17

It’s actually been quite a while since I posted here, though I have read many of the articles with some interest over the intervening months. Admittedly, I haven’t always agreed with all of the sentiments that they’ve proposed, but I’ve always found them thought provoking (which perhaps was the point). In this instance, I think the writer of the original letter gave a well thought through and biblical response to the question at hand and I concur with the advice offered and so won’t try to elaborate on that, but rather deal with a couple of points that other readers have made in their comments.

Firstly, Beth raises an interesting point when she talks off the assumption that since men are more likely to want sex more than women, we have somehow come to the assumption that women don’t want sex at all. There are probably many reasons for this, but a couple do spring to mind. Firstly, there is this perception that women are much more virtuous and spiritual than their male counterparts (compare the descriptions in children’s rhyme “What are little boys made of” by Robert Southey to see what I mean) and this idea does sit rather uncomfortably with an acknowledgment of the reality that women experience a strong desire for sexual intimacy. Secondly, the familial connotations of woman expressed throughout the church (whites weddings, marriage, children) again propose the existence of these virtuous maidens interested only in homemaking and bringing up children; in no way does this view allow for a person who simply wants to have sex, or one struggling with the desire for sex. Thirdly, there is our own worldview (male perspective). Now, I must first stress that in all such cases, the only male mind I have to call on is my own (I’m the only laboratory I’ve got) and as such this could be purely subjective. But it does seem to me that even in my own mind, there is a friction between understanding women as being kind, motherly and empathic and acknowledging the existence their desires. Perhaps it seems too carnal for them? That they are not capable of the same desires we are? I’m not sure.

I for one have always assumed that female desire would experience peaks and troughs in relation to the monthly cycle, waning at the point of menstruation and the peaking at the point of ovulation, while male desire is pretty much constant with no cycle to speak off. But perhaps the fundamental point is this. Do men find women’s sexual desires disconcerting? Is it on some level unnerving to us to learn that they desire you as much you desire them? And (sorry, poor grammar) have we come to subconsciously accept the sweetness and light view to such a degree that we don’t offer help and guidance to women because we don’t think they need it? Finally, on xeres point, I would say lust is ultimately a love of the self enacted in a sexual setting that reduces the other to an object to be used in the satiation of ones own desires. Healthy (if we can use that word) sexuality is mutual communion between those in marriage as laid out in Gods word. A proviso. Noticing and being drawn to attractive members of the opposite sex is not lust. Wanting to have sex is not lust. Desiring intimacy = not lust. The lust comes with action. All our desires are tainted, but for those whom God has called to both marital fidelity and celibacy, grace is given to bring them in line with his will.

Under Grace

[18. NSL said the following at 7:57 AM on Feb 20:]

18

In response to Talia (#16), I would say masturbation is inherently sexual and not just an "itch". I don't believe we can honestly equate masturbation with other activities, such as combing our hair or urinating. I believe the only context in which God encourages and honors sexual activity is marriage.

[19. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:11 AM on Feb 20:]

19

RE: Comments 9-11
I don't think it's the fantasy that ruins it or makes us feel guilty. The fantasy does not help, but there's more to this sin that fantasy. As I'm learning, it stems from the sin of loneliness.
Exercising, scripture memorization, and prayer aren't going to remove your sexuality. I don't think that should be the point. Physical and spiritual exercises should help to remind us that we are to be found in Christ and apart from Him we are lonely beings. All of the energy that we spend pursuing sinful activities or activities that lead to sinful behavior we should be spending in pursuing things of Christ.
Study, read, meditate, run with your thoughts fixated on Christ and most importantly don't allow yourself to grow weary. This is where I struggle and being to lose my battles. The day has come to an end and I find myself thinking "Well, I'm still lonely. I'm here by myself, again. I feel like a failture, again." This is the point at which I throw in the towel and give up. I fail to attempt to move beyond these thoughts.
Yes, I have libido. Yes, there are certain things I want out of life. The question is, where is my energy going to be spent? Do I give in to temptation or do I keep running the race? Whose race do I run? The one the Lord has set for me or the one I have set for myself? The Lord's race is much easier because it's been charted out already.

[20. John D. said the following at 9:29 AM on Feb 20:]

20

Carrie (the original) writes in post 19,

"... the sin of loneliness."

Just when we thought we had figured out whether there was a gift of singleness, now there is a sin of loneliness?

Am I working from a beta version of the Bible? Mine doesn't say "thou shalt not be lonely."

[21. G said the following at 10:25 AM on Feb 20:]

21

In regards to comment 19 from Carrie(the original) - how is loneliness a sin? I understand that our emotions are not to run our lives, but how does being lonely qualify as sinfulness? As a single, I find there is a constant, low-grade loneliness, even when surrounded by family or friends. I don't think the sin involved in masturbation is loneliness, but rather engaging in sexual activity outside of God's designed boundary of marriage.

[22. obewan said the following at 10:29 AM on Feb 20:]

22

Regarding this issue, I wish people would stick to the scriptures. The only passage in the Bible that even comes close to discussing “self-pleasuring” is found in Genesis 38, and my interpretation is that it is taken out of context when people do so.

In fact, if it is Biblically applied in its strictest context, then all forms of birth control could be considered a sin for married people.

Yes, according to this passage God wanted sex to be used for pro-creation, and Onan was out of the will of God, and God KILLED him for it. I don’t know if this is where the Catholic Church gets their doctrine from, but I am sure the vast majority of Protestants would not agree that use birth control is a sin.

From Genesis 38 we have:

“When he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother: Onan refused to take this responsibility seriously. He was more than happy to use Tamar for his sexual gratification, but he did not want to give Tamar a son he had to support but would be considered to be the son of Er.

i. Onan pursued sex as only a pleasurable experience. If he really didn’t want to father a child by Tamar, he should never have had sex with her at all. He refused to fulfill his obligation to his dead brother and Tamar.

ii. Many Christians have used this passage as a proof-text against masturbation. Indeed, masturbation has been called “onanism.” However, this does not seem to be the case here. Whatever Onan did, he was not masturbating. This was not a sin of masturbation, but a sin of refusing to care for his brother’s widow by giving her offspring, and of a selfish use of sex.”

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0138.htm

I say to those married people, you cannot have it both ways. If “self-pleasuring” (assuming without the acknowledged sin of lust) is a sin, then so is birth control.

I admit that according to the scriptures we should not be “mastered by anything”, and that we should not be defiled by the sin of lust. However, I also have to side with A Girl in comment 10 who said for her it is like an itch. Perhaps I saw too many Kinsey reports on trashy Phil Donahue shows, but they all suggested that women who learn to “self-pleasure” have better love lives when they are married. Spiritually, and physically, If I were in the process of choosing a wife, I would be more concerned about one that read trashy romance novels than one who scratched her itch.

Scratching the itch can not cause sexually transimitted disease or unwanted pregnancy. I think the other "sexual sins" or more clearly discussed in the Bible because they are "sins against our own body."

[23. Caleb S. said the following at 10:34 AM on Feb 20:]

23

Nice follow up. I definitely think both steps are necessary. Understanding God's grace, as well as actions to take. The real issue is the condition of our heart, and if that is not dealt with steps of action won't get us far, but they are definitely useful to helping us.

I am reminded of the passage in Hebrews that tells us to cut out the things that allow us the occasion to sin (loosely interpreted). A man addicted to gambling can't very well go to a casino just to hang out with his friends, but if he doesn't deal with other issues such as relying on God to provide his conquering of the sin won't last long.

[24. Christina said the following at 11:09 AM on Feb 20:]

24

I definitly struggle with this and knowing that, I've decided to be very limited in my expression of love towards the next man I date.

James, you had some interesting insight and that is really very curious about how men DO seem surprised when a woman expresses any sexual desire. I express to my female friends with a man nearby that I "am in desperate need of sex" and suddenly the guy falls flat on his face cuz he tripped on something and wasn't watching where he was going. Yeah, the physical need for sex does wax and wane with the "moon" (or cycle) - but there IS more to it...at least for me.

The longer I abstain from intimacy (emotional or physical - including hugging and kissing, not just sex) with someone of the opposite sex, the more I desire to pour myself out for a man.

You said:
the familial connotations of woman expressed throughout the church (whites weddings, marriage, children) again propose the existence of these virtuous maidens interested only in homemaking and bringing up children; in no way does this view allow for a person who simply wants to have sex, or one struggling with the desire for sex

This surprises me that men would have this view, because a desire for husband and family naturally includes emotional and physical intimacy. As my desire for motherhood gets stronger and stronger, my physical need for sex gets more and more pronounced. As my desire for marriage becomes more pronounced, my desire to physically appease a man that I am emotionally intimate with gets incredibly stronger.

The desires scare the living daylights out of me. The stronger they get, the more afraid I am to even begin an emotional tie with a man because I'm afraid I won't have the strength of will and mental discipline to remember to "Leave room for Jesus" as one of my best friends put it.

And as you said...this isn't lust - its a natural desire. And I find myself burning with it. >.< I need to get married...not only because of all the excellent points that boundless writers have made in the past, but because these natural desires are becoming increasingly difficult to control and I fail at glorifying God when I mess up. I want an intimate relationship with a man where I can offer myself freely to him. I want to have children and raise them.

Somehow, I feel that I'd be glorifying God in doing this.

Someone else mentioned that channeling that energy into focusing on God could be good. She's right. I use worship music because I always feel more intimately involved with God when I am praising him...work on pouring myself out for the appeasement of God while I wait on him to provide an outlet for these growing desires is a good way of going about it.

[25. Dolores said the following at 11:18 AM on Feb 20:]

25

James said, in comment #17:

Do men find women’s sexual desires disconcerting? Is it on some level unnerving to us to learn that they desire you as much you desire them?

I'd be really interested in the mens' answers to these questions. It's a side of the coin that I'm not sure I've considered, and my interest is piqued.

A girl (comment #10):

I'd venture to say that it's not fantasizing that makes masturbation wrong. Fantasizing is wrong, too, but another issue. Masturbation is wrong because it's sexual fulfillment outside of marriage. God doesn't tell us that we may only be scratched by our spouse, but He does say that sex is exclusively for marriage--one man, one woman.

Eliza (comment #11):

Regardless of how much you exercise or pray or stay away from anything sexualized, you just cannot eliminate your sexuality. It's like trying to eliminate hunger. The more you try to stay away, the more of an obsession it becomes.

I would agree with you there. God made us sexual beings, and being determined that we sexual beings isn't going to change that. However, we still have a responsibility to deal honorably with those desires--the fact that He gave us those desires doesn't excuse whatever form of fulfillment we choose.

I don't believe God intended for us to have sexual fulfillment outside of (and therefore, before) marriage. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to pretend to not have sexual desires. He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all. I wouldn't expect this to remove someone's healthy sexual desires, but I would encourage someone who's struggling to keep a deathly honest journal of where they're at and how they're dealing with it (or not dealing with it). I'm grateful that I can look back at my journal entries from times of gut-wrenching struggle and realize, I survived. There's hope. And often in the middle of the situation, just getting it all out on paper was a relief, a validation that God knows what's going on, even if I'm confused and hurting.

Josh Harris has some really good thoughts on this subject in Sex is Not the Problem: Lust is (previously titled, Not Even a Hint). I wish I could quote the whole chapter here. But here's one brief paragraph:

The reason this very private act matters to God is not because it involves our genitals, but because it involves our hearts. And God is passionately committed to our hearts belonging completely to Him (Deuteronomy 6:5).

The book is really good. If you can't afford it, check it out from the library (may still be listed as Not Even a Hint).

[26. Dolores said the following at 11:42 AM on Feb 20:]

26

TN1 mentioned the church that was challenging its members to have sex daily for a month. What I saw of the challenge seemed rather flippant, but what I found most disturbing was the counterpart of their challenge, for unmarried folks: No sex for a month. And from the comments of the unmarried church member quoted in the article, that part could be a problem. A challenge could be good, I suppose, but when the 30 days is over, do we go back to singles hopping in bed when the urge hits them?

Putting it on the same level for married folks to be having daily sex and singles to not be having sex for 30 days seems to degrade the importance of pre-marriage purity. A "challenge"? "Let's-see-if-we-can-do-this-for-one-whole-month?" The Bible comes out much stronger against extramarital sex then they appear to.

(Mods: This may belong in a new thread; feel free to move it.)

[27. Eliza said the following at 11:46 AM on Feb 20:]

27

Dolores,

You said, However, we still have a responsibility to deal honorably with those desires--the fact that He gave us those desires doesn't excuse whatever form of fulfillment we choose.

Of course that doesn't excuse any form of fulfillment we choose (such as engaging in sexual activity with a person to whom you are not married). There is, however, a difference. Firstly, how is masturbation considered "sexual fulfillment"? It is nowhere near being fulfilling like sex is in marriage. Also, what would the purpose be for God to ban this act? Sex is 1) a bond between two people and 2) a means for procreation. Neither of those things are present when one is alone. Finally, where in the Bible do you see God speaking to this issue?

You also said, I don't believe God intended for us to have sexual fulfillment outside of (and therefore, before) marriage. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to pretend to not have sexual desires. He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all.

I most definitely respect the desire to have one's heart belonging to God above all. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But I don't see how repressing our sexual desires will further give our hearts to God. If anything (for me) it tore my heart away from God. Indeed, deathly honest journals are nothing new to me, and I found immobilizing shackles of guilt and fear in them. It would be nice if a simple pen to paper would produce hope and freedom, but it is not the case.

I survived too--because now I'm married. If I wasn't, I'm sure by this point I would have gone off the deep end in despair.

[28. Carrie (the original) said the following at 12:19 PM on Feb 20:]

28

"It is not good for man to be alone" Loneliness was bad and not what God wanted for man, even in the Garden. Being a Christian means are in relationship with Christ meaning you are no longer alone.
I said the "sin of loneliness" because once you are have entered into a relationship with Christ you in theory should no longer feel like you are alone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what loneliness is: feeling alone. However, we are sinful beings so loneliness happens even once we are in relationship with Christ. Do I think it's damnable? As a feeling, no. If you continue to act on it and make certain judgements about God without ever repenting from them and end up in a life that is anti-God, then yes.
Comment #21
I don't think the sin involved in masturbation is loneliness, but rather engaging in sexual activity outside of God's designed boundary of marriage.
If it was a matter of behavior modification ("just stop doing that"), then years of counseling wouldn't be needed in order to successfully overcome it.
I agree that the sin of loneliness (and yes, I'll continue to refer to loneliness as a sin because it is "not good for man to be alone" and a sin is something that is "not good" and thus anti-God) is something that plagues singles in a very different way than it does married couples.
I'm single, I know. Solitude is one thing. We all need solitude every now and then, but loneliness is not something we need. It is something that we ought to be fighting against.

[29. Candice Watters said the following at 12:52 PM on Feb 20:]

29

Obewan, you raise an excellent, if totally off-subject, point: most Protestants just assume birth control is OK. Not only OK, but the thing to do. Which is troubling if for no other reason than they make decisions about it without thinking through all the implications of it. But I'll save that one for another post.

Thanks Dolores for recommending Josh Harris's book Not Even a Hint. That's a great idea and a great resource. You can get it here (It's now called Sex is Not the Problem: Lust Is).

[30. anonymous said the following at 1:02 PM on Feb 20:]

30

I also posted comment #7. In regards to people saying that masturbation is just scratching an itch: I don't know if it is a sin, outright, in any situation. I think it probably is. In any event, I can speak for my own experience, and for me, it was a sin. For many reasons.

1. I've heard the whole idea of separating fantasy from the physical act, and I personally think that's like smoking weed and not inhaling. Difficult to separate, silly to tempt yourself. It's a justification I tried to use myself, but I never did convince myself.

2. I often engaged in self-pleasure to fight loneliness, boredom, or sadness. Much like any addiction (food, alcohol, etc), when I should have been using those opportunities to turn to God. I was substituting prayer and reflection time with sexual gratification. Not good.

3. It is a slippery slope. For me, masturbation, reading romance novels, even "soft" porn on late-night t.v. were all intertwined, and the more I did it, the deeper I got. What would start as "scratching an itch" quickly led to more.

4. My thoughts centered more on sexual thoughts throughout the day in general because I was encouraging my natural tendencies when I should have been exerting self-control.

When I was engaged in these activities, I tried to justify them to myself a lot. But when I stopped making excuses and really, really thought about it, I realized that self-pleasure was distracting from my spiritual walk, giving me such intense shame that I felt too guilty to really engage with God, encouraging an unhealthy focus on sexuality that is difficult, I think, to confine your alone times. How do you shut off your sexual self when you're trying to engage in chaste dating relationships? Altogether, the result of my habit of masturbation was an increased distance from God.

I am a healthier person in many ways now that I do not pleasure myself sexually. I stopped when I was 20. I am now 25 years old, and single, and yes, of course I have hormones and my body is ready to do a lot of things that it's not doing right now. But I refuse to accept the idea that I must indulge my natural desires just because they are natural. The bible tells me that my flesh is at war with my spirit. I do not intend to help my flesh win by encouraging my thoughts and actions to push the limits of restraint.

I look forward to unleashing my years of pent-up sexual energy on my husband, when I will be able to enjoy my sexuality in the way that God designed it. Free of guilt.

[31. S. said the following at 1:16 PM on Feb 20:]

31

I find this topic fascinating because this is something I, too, have struggled with since age 12. Carrie, I think you pinpoint it when you say it stems from the sin of loneliness. I recently just "met" a little book called "How to Win Over Loneliness," written by John Haggai in 1979. I highly recommend it, if you can track down a copy. "Loneliness" is just another word for an emptiness or discontent of some sort, and as Candice's article and links pointed out, we humans are always trying to fill a perceived emptiness on our own instead of bringing it to God. Interestingly enough, the more satisfied I've become over the years with God and the life He has given me, the less tempted I've been. I would say (although with fear and trembling) that I have been living in victory for almost a year now.

It only recently occurred to me, in one of those reality-shattering revelations, that the holes in my heart are places through which God's love can pour. So I've been asking Him to teach me more and more about His love, so that I can pass it on.

I've also been experiencing some really curious things since God started upping the pressure and forcing me to work on this. I had basically never known adult life without it, so it was an adjustment. I found that sexuality is wrapped up in my perception of... everything! It's hard and risky to get to know the opposite sex as people, and I began to realize that I had only been socializing with good-hearted guys I found unattractive. Since, two things have been happening. First, the good-hearted guys are becoming more attractive, each in his own way. ;) Second, I find myself stepping out of my comfort zone more often in human interactions and in everything else. I'm not so bound by my feelings.

I think the point is that of course our sexuality does not go away. We can attempt to satiate it, or we can "bounce" the same motivation elsewhere - perhaps into creative energy or prayer. Sexuality is much bigger than a single physical act. In a paraphrase of some famous person, probably C.S. Lewis, we're not asking too much of our sexuality, but far too little.

[32. Beth said the following at 1:23 PM on Feb 20:]

32

I agree with all your reasons, James (#17, responding to my first post, #9). But I believe that all these reasons evidence a distorted view of sex – I understand the underlying presupposition to be that sex, and the desire for it, is dirty, sinful, kinky, wrong, bad, and gross. On the contrary, sex is good, designed by God. Why should Christ-loving, Bible-believing, “kind, motherly and empathic” women NOT desire such a joyful, wild and rowdy gift?

I would like to point out that sex objects do not have their own desires; objects are only acted upon by others. We have farther to go in our conformation to the gospel if we do not accept female sexual desire; if we do not acknowledge its existence, what have we done with the world’s female sex object except clean her up and make her wear an apron?

I do think you are in the majority understanding female sexuality this way. My husband says that before we married he assumed he would be the only one wanting sex, that his wife would just let him have sex with her because she was being nice (or something to that effect). He brings this up now and then to reiterate how grateful he is to be married to me. :)

[33. Beth J. said the following at 1:24 PM on Feb 20:]

33

It bothers me that some of you don't think masturbation is wrong, even aside from porn or fantasy, because it is such a selfish thing.
Just as God wants all of our lives brought to the light and in Him there is no darkness at all, I need to think of my life like that- would I be ashamed if someone walked into the room? Am I ashamed knowing that God sees me? I wouldn't masturbate in public... it's not an acceptable thing. Why would it be right to do in private?
I don't mean to say that all nakedness is sin, and just because I don't want others in the bathroom with me doesn't mean that I am doing anything wrong. But we hide our nakedness for the same reason Adam and Eve did. Not because it is wrong, but because we are ashamed and exposed. Modesty requires covering.
We get caught up in the public sins and dismiss the private ones, but don't forget that God looks at the heart.
I think the girl who wrote in knew about grace and forgiveness, but wanted to get out of the sin/confess cycle. Paul says in Romans 6 that we aren't to abuse God's grace by continuing in sin, and so many other verses say that to be a Christian is to stop sinning. Yours may be lying or gossip, someone else's may be anger or pride. Hers is sensuality, and it needs to be broken and conquered just like the rest. Thank you, Candace.

[34. Mike Theemling said the following at 1:31 PM on Feb 20:]

34

The fact that sexual desires were intended to be fulfilled within marriage, and the fact that those desires peak in males in the late teen years (I'm not sure of females but they can be strong at that time as well), it would be reasonable to conclude that we were "designed" to marry at a much younger age than we do now. In fact, for much of human history, this was the case where it used to be a maiden turning 18 without a husband was branded an "old maid".

Unfortunately, society's milestone expectations do not match up with our biology and we wrestle with the issues we do now. Christians moreso as pre-marital sex is verboten.

Regarding masturbation, I think that most Christians (myself included) hedge the answer. I don't know of many who would outright say that it's always a sin, nor those who think "anytime, anyplace" is a good guideline to follow. Dr. Dobson is actually one of those who takes more liberal view of it than most Christian leaders. I will say though that I believe there can be a danger in emphasizing the issue too much. For example, if you have an accountability partner and are constantly failing eventually it may cause one to feel worse or inhibit talking to that person altogether (because you will have to confess your failings). I'm not saying accountability isn't important or a good tool, but it may be as futile as having a man be accountable to his wife for any lustful thoughts he's had that past week (not talking about something as serious as obsessively viewing pornography).

Finally, I'd like to comment a bit on Joshua Harris. Although I do think some of his words of advice are sound in his books, he does not exactly have what's called the "credibility" issue. For example, he rejects altogether the modern dating model and yet he married at the good "old" age of 21. Likewise, it's easy for married people who have access to proper sexual release to treat celibacy as manageable if one lives "spiritually enough", but it's much easier said than done.

[35. obewan said the following at 1:55 PM on Feb 20:]

35

Candice:

I did not mean for my comment (#22) to appear off topic. On the contrary, Genesis 38 is the passage I am usually quoted by people who tell me self pleasuring is a sin. When I read it, I make the connection to birth control, which raises many questions for me - especially since I carry a defective gene and do not want to pro-create (should I ever get married). I will look forward to your posting on the subject of birth control if you choose to address the subject.

[36. S. said the following at 1:58 PM on Feb 20:]

36

Regarding loneliness as a sin, some quotes from John Haggai's book (which again, I recommend):

"Loneliness is complex. It is different from being alone. One can be alone by choice, but even when it is not by choice, being alone can be creative and productive. But being lonely is usually not by choice; it can drain the emotions and negate creativity.
"One historian noticed that today's American is equipped with a gyroscope instead of a radar screen because he is now 'other-directed' instead of 'inner-directed.' Now he has no internalized values of his own. Rather, he is pummeled into conforming to his peer group in order to gain their approval. This alters his behavior, his convictions, and his life-style. Worst of all, it imprisons him in the loneliness ghetto. This explains the neurotic personality of our time and the near-desperate urge to conform.
"One of America's top sociologists, Titkin Sorokin, said, 'Facing loneliness was once a mark of manhood in American civilization. In an earlier era, Americans were reared to face life on their own in the struggle to achieve success through work.' He further goes on to suggest that being alone was part of the definition of successful living. I suggest that he is innocently confusing 'aloneness' with 'loneliness.'
"He further says (and I think he is right here) that we tend to identify our personal success in terms of our being liked and accepted. In such a situation, of course, emotional isolation strikes with a terrific impact. Many cannot handle it for the simple reason that it suggests a frightening vulnerability at best or total inadequacy at worst.

Loneliness as sin:

"God's Word says, 'I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee' (Heb. 13:5). Loneliness weepingly replies, 'I don't believe that.' God's Word says, 'The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want [literally be in need]' (Ps. 23:1). That need can be psychological as well as physical. But loneliness, with deep self-pity, whines, 'I don't believe that.' . . . God says, 'My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness' (2 Cor. 12:9). Loneliness grievingly cries, 'But my weakness is far too great. Nothing can help. I don't believe that.'
"How inexcusable for anyone to accuse God of falsehood. And when we knuckle under to loneliness, that is exactly what we do. We insult God!"

Other interesting tidbits:

"One of the disastrous behavior patterns that loneliness produces is the compulsion to unrealistic expectations.
"Depression is a ruin of loneliness. Depression distorts our thoughts, our reactions, our reasoning, our worth, and our purpose."

Eliza said "I survived too--because now I'm married. If I wasn't, I'm sure by this point I would have gone off the deep end in despair."

Speaking from personal experience, sometimes despair is right where God wants us before He can pick us up again with the deepest knowledge of His grace.

[37. Eliza said the following at 2:05 PM on Feb 20:]

37

Beth J.,

would I be ashamed if someone walked into the room? Am I ashamed knowing that God sees me? I wouldn't masturbate in public... it's not an acceptable thing. Why would it be right to do in private?

You would be embarrassed if someone walked in on you dressing or showering, too. It is also not appropriate to have sex with your spouse in public, but that is not an inherently shameful thing.

[38. Christina said the following at 2:06 PM on Feb 20:]

38

Mike, I do have mixed feelings about whether it is right or wrong.

My reasons for it would be to put a damper on the appetites that grow to the point that I would actually do something like call up a guy and invite him over. No, "satisfying" something like that in a small way doesn't make it right if its for the "greater good". I'm not trying to say that at all. But considering the Bible has nothing to say on it, its one of those conscience things. Sometimes my conscience says absolutely not (especially when I'm fantasizing about a man), but other times when I'm trying not to engage in some other sexual sin, my conscience is strangely quiet (yes I can do this and not fantasize at the same time).

Carrie, your "sin of loneliness" is flawed. I hate saying that cuz it makes me sound so uppity and perfectly logical, which I'm not...but here's what I've got.

1) Adam had the PERFECT relationship with God. There was NOTHING separating him from God. He walked and talked in person with God himself - face to face...in a garden. There was no NEED for Jesus because there WAS no sin. So, it not being good for man to be alone was something to compliment his relationship with God. And God made Eve. Not Jesus.

2) When sin entered the world, man was seperated from God. That perfect relationship is no more. To fill THAT need, we need Jesus. Our relationship to him is our first need, and once that is met, it doesn't mean we are no longer alone - it simply means that we are in a relationship with God. Now to take care of the "its not good for man to be alone" part.

I don't think that we should be attempting to fill our "loneliness" with anything outside of God first. But if there is a confident faith in God and a seeking after God and there is no other relationship in a person's life, that is not healthy. God did not create us to be alone, but first and foremost he did not create us to be with out him.

Loneliness is not a sin. Its what you do with it that is. James Dobson wrote a book forever and a day ago about Emotions - emotions are never the sin. Actions are.

Argh and anyone coming at me and attacking this post with a thousand and one epistemological arguments about God and Jesus both being present in the Garden, I know. I was simply attempting to make a point and God's knowledge of the future state of the world and his plan has little to do with the point I was attempting to make.

[39. Beth said the following at 2:13 PM on Feb 20:]

39

Carrie (the original), (#28)

If by “loneliness” you mean discontentment, impatience, bitterness, despair, or anger, then I agree that “loneliness is a sin.” However, I do not believe at all that the desire for relationship is sinful.

You quoted “it is not good for man to be alone.” Amen. But God made that pronouncement before the fall, when God and Adam had no sin to separate them, when God walked with his children in the cool of the day. Even then, our merciful God decided it was best to create for Adam a companion. This may be going too far, but I would venture to say Adam was lonely in the garden, prior any and all disobedience.

I remember days when I told myself, “I am good at being alone.” I had been lonely a lot, but I was tough, and I had Jesus. I cried when I read the first chapters of Genesis for the hundredth time and realized that, just maybe, God does not condemn me for my loneliness. Just maybe, He understands.

I hope you’re not offended by my pseudo-psychoanalysis of your statement in the first paragraph. I know how easy it is to layer one emotion over the other. Lately I’ve been confessing that I am impatient. And by “impatient” I mean angry, bitter, envious, and prone to despair. “Impatient” sounds better, though. :)

My point is that you may be correct in your assessment of your own sin, but I doubt your sin is loneliness. I mean this as a reminder of God’s grace to you.

Blessings -

[40. Amanda said the following at 2:19 PM on Feb 20:]

40

I am a woman who struggles with masturbation, and like A girl and Talia, I do not fantasize during the act. Nonetheless, I am convinced that, at least for me, it is sinful. Candice DID provide reasoning for why female masturbation is wrong -- by quoting Theophilus who said that self-pleasure "draws the erotic longing backward into Self instead of outward." The bottom line for me is that masturbation is NOT what the Lord created my sexual desire for. He created us with these desires so that we could be INTIMATE WITH ANOTHER PERSON...in the context of the covenant relationship of MARRIAGE -- NOT so that we could get this pleasure prematurely, in isolation from others. I can only imagine how masturbation could make fulfillment in a sexual relationship in marriage difficult because it sets it in your mind that physical pleasure is all about YOU; it's taking it out of the context God created it in; it's just UNHOLY. This is what the Lord has led me to believe. That being said, I don't know your heart and I don't know how the Spirit has led YOU...but just know that there is freedom in being honest with yourself and with the Lord about what you're doing. Walking in obedience to him is SO MUCH BETTER than the fleeting pleasure of masturbation. Don't you ever just feel empty afterward? Allow the Spirit to convict you about why that is. I just want to encourage anyone who is justifying this act to let him give you the ultimate satisfaction of tasting and seeing that the Lord is good -- so much better than anything we could give ourselves. "Self-pleasure" is a nice euphemism...but TRUE pleasure lies in the LORD.

[41. Eliza said the following at 2:44 PM on Feb 20:]

41

S.,

Despair is the loss of all hope or confidence. I do not think God ever wants us to come to a place of despair. That would be, quite literally, hell.

[42. Carrie (the original) said the following at 3:18 PM on Feb 20:]

42

However, I do not believe at all that the desire for relationship is sinful.
That's my point. It the desire for relationship isn't sinful. We were created for relationship. The fact that Adam was lonely in the garden points to this.
God said lonliness was bad in the garden. What we do to fill the void that loneliness leaves is even worse. Goodness gracious people, how am I being misunderstood??

[43. Loris said the following at 3:54 PM on Feb 20:]

43

I definitely agree that there is a perception of women having "cooler" sex drives than men. My husband told me his pastor had taken him out to breakfast the summer before our marriage and given him a long lecture about how he would probably have to "go easy" on me. This squared with what he had already assumed and he was very relieved to find out the stereotype wasn't necessarily true.

[44. Beth said the following at 4:17 PM on Feb 20:]

44

Carrie,

So you're saying that the things you do BECAUSE you are lonely are sinful? That is different from saying that loneliness is sin.

Please be clear about what you mean, and it will help people to understand you.

[45. Dolores said the following at 5:01 PM on Feb 20:]

45

Eliza,

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say "sexual activity" rather than "sexual fulfillment."

Apparently some of the logic that seemed clear in my own head didn't make it through the keyboard. For instance, I said He desires us to be honest with Him and He desires our hearts above all. What I meant is that, unless we're truly honest with Him, He's not going to have our hearts and the relationship turns rather fake.

You said, I don't see how repressing our sexual desires will further give our hearts to God.

I'm not sure what I said that you're taking as meaning that repressing sexual desires will give our hearts more to God. Hmmm... And what do you mean by "repressing sexual desires"? I thought I was pretty clear in saying we should express those desires, but not by acting on them.

Carrie,

Regarding it "not being good" for man to be alone:

1. God didn't say it wasn't good for man to "feel alone," which is in essence what loneliness is.

2. If the "not being good"=sin, then we have a major problem, because there was no sin in the Garden.

Mike,

I didn't quite understand the flow of your comments regarding Joshua Harris, but have you read Sex is Not the Problem: Lust is? He shares quite honestly from his own pre-marriage struggles--and I know of multiple "older" singles (myself included) for whom the advice in that book was dead-on.

[46. Jeff said the following at 5:27 PM on Feb 20:]

46

I'm still kind of confused about the concept of loneliness as a sin. I was reminded that Jesus cried out in Mark 15:34 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Honestly, I've never really understood why He says this and maybe I'm not interpreting it correctly. I realize that He is quoting from Psalm 22, but that hasn't really made it any clearer to me.
This sounds like a cry of loneliness from our Lord and Savior to me. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

[47. Katie B said the following at 6:00 PM on Feb 20:]

47

in response to A girl... I dont think it matters if you can seperate fantasies or lust from masturbation.
I go to a private christian college and am studying pastoral ministry,as a woman, I am surrounded by men in all my classes and in my ministry internships and projects, the future pastors of america, and have been blessed to have the experience of being in a mostly male enviroment, the issue of sexual sin is not shied away from, since it is such a large problem in church leadership. I have witnessed some incredibly candid discussions. While I dont struggle with masturbation or pornography, (though before I came to christ and a year or so after I struggled with sinful intamacy with male aquaintences) what my classmates and professors have come to understand is that the issues of masturbation, porn, sex before marriage, are all boiled down to false intamacy. That is what most of my male friends have confided as the most spritually and relationally damaging aspect of sexual sin. Causing the God given sexual response to occur in a situation that is not God ordained. masturbation, as well as porn and fantasies, trigger our sexual response, but there is no other person involved. Instead of sex being relational, it becomes individual. There is no giving or recieving, there is only 'scratching an itch' or trying to cope with other issues by finding sexual release.
Sex is an incredible picture of the intamacy that God wishes to have with us. We are his bride. but when we twist that it becomes perverted. even if there is no fantacies, arguably no lust, it still is driving the sexual response inward instead of outward. that becomes damaging to our intamate relationships, with our boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse, and also with God.

[48. Toan said the following at 6:06 PM on Feb 20:]

48

I admit I am frustrated with what a few people have said. Not the comments on masturbation, but persons reiterating that "Yes, I had heard women had lower sex drives." Or something to that effect.

If nothing else the church might do good to look towards the secular world on this aspect. It would irritate me to know that my future husband/pastor/youth pastor/whomever would assume that I have little to no sex drive. Don't they know basic biology?

Why is it so impossible/improbable that there is a female sex drive? Or that women have needs, or that women can and do enjoy sex?

It has me thinking of some archaic 1800s text or something talking about a woman's wedding night and her being so frightened. Well, I am not frighted. I am quite looking forward to it, and I am getting the impression that during my premarital counseling better make sure this is clear.

[49. Anonymous Girl said the following at 7:34 PM on Feb 20:]

49

In response to Xerxes, (post #15):

I used to struggle with sexual thoughts -- actually, I didn't even struggle with them, I just gave in to them. For me personally, so that there can be no accusations against me that can stand in spiritual warfare, I draw the line very conservatively. If I have a thought about a guy that turns me on, I immediately get rid of it. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I would rather be on the safe side. However, I definitely see a difference between that and just noticing that guys are attractive; I can't help that.

Where do you draw the line, Xerxes?

[50. J said the following at 11:09 PM on Feb 20:]

50

I am glad to see that this topic is being addressed in a Christian forum such as this. I think the reason people continue to struggle secretly is that they believe Satan's lie that they are "the only one" struggling with a certain sin. This can lead to cycles of tremendous guilt and shame.

Confession can be difficult.
Confession can be powerful, but at the same, it can be difficult to find someone trustworthy (or develop trust) to confess one's sins and know that the confessed sins will remain confidential. The other thing that might keep someone from confessing is that they are afraid that the other person might be shocked, misunderstood or disappointed, particularly in some circles when one hears people say, "Well, I've never had that problem."

The very positive thing about confession, however, is that when we admit our struggles, we sometimes do find out that we are not the only one who struggles in a certain area.

I think that it is important that topics like this are addressed in Christian settings in a candid way as was done in this article. If the Church doesn't address these issues, you'd better believe that people will find a way to justify their behaviour based on information found in worldly sources.

[51. H.A.P. said the following at 6:07 AM on Feb 21:]

51

I'm just married six months but this reminded me how rough the single years were. (How could I have forgotten so easily?) I can't stop praying for my single friends!!
I've always quietly wondered at reference to the lack of interest women have in sex. I think that line of thought goes back to the Victorian era "Sex is something men do and women endure". How many times have I heard that?!!
My dear husband was shocked when I suggested we spend the first week of our honeymoon in a cabin in the woods with no TV, computer, cell phones, etc.... and no where to go. Needless to say he quickly agreed. :)

[52. Carrie (the original) said the following at 7:33 AM on Feb 21:]

52

Beth, I think it's a both/and. Christ took on sin on the cross. He bore the loneliness/seperation from God on our behalf. So, I still think that loneliness is a sin. A sin that Christ took on in order to redeem it.
Dolores, there was sin in the Garden actually. The common interpretation is that sin entered once Eve bit into the apple. I can't be convinced of this.
Sin entered (in the form of the snake) before Eve bit into the apple. Now, here is what makes me tremble: there was a guard at the gate. Supposedly a perfect guard, but the serpent somehow got in anyway.
Eve chose to eat of the apple. So was it when she bit into the apple that sin entered or was it upon her decision to transgress?
There are many questions about the fall of man that I have. Which is why I think so much about loneliness, I suppose.

[53. Eliza said the following at 7:38 AM on Feb 21:]

53

Delores,

Ah, I see what you mean about being fake with God. I don't think I've ever been anything but candid with God--after all, He knows exactly what I'm thinking/feeling anyway. It is kind of impossible to deceive God. But I still don't see how being honest with God about your desires actually changes anything about those desires, other than the fact that God knows about them.

Regarding repressing sexual desires, I am very confused. How in the world does a person express their sexuality while not acting on it?

Also, I know everyone here is talking about being "turned on" like it's something that only happens if something sexual in nature passes by. But I really believe that being sexually aroused can be a completely physical thing. The physical occurrence of sexual arousal is a common, frequent fact of human life which does not ask us if we're interested first.

It does not seem to me to be within the character of the God of scripture to create a human feature which is both strong and frequent, and then demand that we ignore it. That god sounds like an obnoxious bully.

[54. Eliza said the following at 7:56 AM on Feb 21:]

54

I'd like to clarify something.

The whole reason we're having this conversation is because all of us are pursuing personal holiness. God says, be holy as I am holy. Of course we want that!

My question is, does that extra-rigorous pursuit of righteousness come at the expense of a deeper satisfaction in God's grace and love? Spending so much of our lives in agony because we are not living up to God's expectations does not seem to be the abundant Christian life.

I know all of the classic Evangelical answers about if you really are in prayer before God he WILL give you the strength and grace to overcome whatever struggles you are facing. But what that REALLY sounds like is: if you are not overcoming your struggles, then you must not be in prayer enough because God obviously hasn't given you strength and grace.

So God's strength and grace becomes the necessity of our own strong will. And we all know that our will is not strong enough to reach God's holiness standards.

If a person is dealing with a consistent struggle such as this one, he/she has a choice: struggle fearfully against it, or feel terribly guilty about having yielded to it. No where in that equation do I see the peace and joy that supposedly characterize the Christian walk.

[55. S. said the following at 11:52 AM on Feb 21:]

55

Eliza said, "My question is, does that extra-rigorous pursuit of righteousness come at the expense of a deeper satisfaction in God's grace and love? Spending so much of our lives in agony because we are not living up to God's expectations does not seem to be the abundant Christian life."

I have been meditating a lot in the last several months on Hebrews 12:10-11 - "For [the fathers of the flesh] verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."

Perhaps you are assuming what I thought for years (and what terrified the author of the question Candice was answering), that ultimate victory is impossible? I'll say this - it is very, very hard, and only God's power can work even the will to try.

If you haven't really exercised your body for years, if at all, and you suddenly begin, the first several weeks you will feel like you are dying. Does that mean it is impossible for you to become fit? Not at all. You just have more work to do than the person who has been regularly working out since childhood. But is it worth it? You bet! Are you letting yourself in for a life of agony? Well, I'll take exercise over diabetes or heart trouble any day. :)

[56. Louise said the following at 1:00 PM on Feb 21:]

56

Regardless of sterotypes, images, etc. most men, both religous and secular, would prefer a wife with a healthy sex drive.

[57. Liz said the following at 4:45 PM on Feb 21:]

57

I’d like to add onto something Eliza said above:
If a person is dealing with a consistent struggle such as this one, he/she has a choice: struggle fearfully against it, or feel terribly guilty about having yielded to it. No where in that equation do I see the peace and joy that supposedly characterize the Christian walk.
I agree that there is no peace and joy in the two above options of either struggling fearfully against it or feeling terribly guilty. If these were the only two options that we had, there would be sufficient cause to despair. However, there is a third, and far more fulfilling and freeing option:
Remember who you REALLY are…a son or daughter of the Most High. He loved you enough that He sent His one and only Son to die for you. His death on the cross bought our freedom with the blood that He shed on the cross. This is not a partial, but rather a complete freedom. Once we have accepted Jesus as our personal Savior, we have to remember that we have gained the absolute and total authority over our enemy who seeks to devour and destroy us at any and every chance that he gets. He tries to destroy us through the addiction of masturbation and many other areas. No matter how hard we try, we cannot free ourselves on our own. I should know, I tried.
I tried many times to free myself from the trap, but I was bound until I remembered that I am a daughter of the King and walked in the authority granted to me as my inheritance. Let me say that total victory and freedom IS possible…but it is only possible through the blood of Jesus. I am a single woman who has been walking with Jesus for over 20 years and I am now 2 years freed from masturbation. The praise and the glory go alone to God!!!!

[58. Eliza said the following at 5:19 PM on Feb 21:]

58

S.,

Regarding the Heb. 12 passage, I hesitate to equate the complete suppression of sexual impulses with God's "chastisement". I believe that "discipline" (that Greek word also is used to mean to train or instruct) means to have self-control. We need to be disciplined in work, in food, and like you said, in exercise. Likewise we need to be disciplined in our sexual activity, to reign in our desires to be meted out in a healthy and positive way.

Now, the Bible does not once mention this topic, and so it is up to us to speculate whether this falls within the realm of "impurity" or "sexual immorality" or even "lust". I truly believe that all conviction on this issue is personal, and each person needs to make up their own mind about it. I think it is wrong to judge anyone who thinks masturbation is not immoral, precisely because that is speculative and up to personal conviction.

One reason I think masturbation is not sinful is because it teaches you to appreciate and not to be offended by the body God gave you. Many Christians (especially young women) do manage to get this idea in their heads that sex (and their sexual feelings) is somehow dirty and wrong. It is a contradiction to say sex is beautiful but you better not be feeling any sexual feelings now ("young lady!"). That can only lead to guilt for their own God-given sexual natures.

Which is my second point. Like I said above, I think that the guilt is the most destructive element of this scenario. I do actually think that "victory" is impossible, if by "victory" you actually mean a feeling of victoriousness. Daily struggle is not victory. Instead, guilt and anguish beat down a person's soul until all hope in God is replaced with resentment.

(You can tell that this is from personal experience.) There is a real problem when the desire to be holy eventually leads one to despise the god they thought they loved so much, that they would rather deliberately choose hell than join his so-called heaven.

In my opinion, a healthy relationship with one's own body is 1) not immoral and 2) overwhelmingly supersedes the internal condemnation that is the alternative.

[59. Stephanie said the following at 6:18 PM on Feb 21:]

59

I'd like to get your opinion on this, because I'm sure I'm not the only girl who struggles with this: What about emotional obsessions with a member of the opposite sex? Maybe you wouldn't classify as lust per se, but what about that obsessive compulsion to think about him all the time? How can we deal with this, and where should we draw the line?

[60. J said the following at 6:44 PM on Feb 21:]

60

Carrie (#52),
I don't believe that loneliness is a sin. I think Jesus must have felt a bit lonely when all his disciples deserted him and when he was hanging on the cross. I think loneliness is a feeling, kind of like fear. I believe that fear is a feeling as well, but it becomes a sin when we act on it and meditate on it. (Look at all the references in the Bible to "Fear not." I guess by the same token, loneliness could turn into self-pity, which would be a sin, but I still can't quite figure how loneliness would be a sin in and of itself, anymore than sadness is a sin.

Jesus died for our sickness as well, but I don't believe sickness is a sin (although I strongly believe that our spiritual/emotional state greatly affects our physical state).

[61. April said the following at 11:12 PM on Feb 21:]

61

Eliza:
I am sorry and very sad that you have rejected God. He is and always has been there for you. I am sorry that you would prefer eternal punishment, pain, and sorrow to eternal peace, joy, and love in a relationship to God, leading me to believe that you never believed in Him in the first place. I will pray for you.
Part of your problem is one that many people assume--that peace and joy mean full-time happiness in this present world. That struggle is a bad thing and not a chance to grow in the Lord. In fact, the very issue of struggle and victory is particularly addressed in Hebrews 12. In case you don't have a Bible handy, I will quote much of it here.
Here is what God Himself says about struggle:
"Therefore..., let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. You have not resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him; for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.' It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons....He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed."
As can be seen from this and many other sections in His Word, God knows that our struggle against sin is just that--a struggle. God teaches us that Christianity is a literal battle (and not just spiritually). BUT, He also promises that He will be there with us; in fact, He HAS been there. He has been tempted as we have been, and He has suffered the punishment that we deserve but do not receive if we believe on Him. Yes, Christians can view the struggle as victory. Just the fact that there IS a struggle against sin is a victory against Satan. However, we are human and also view it as a struggle. It is a healthy struggle like exercise (as someone said earlier); it is an exercise for our soul. We can't strengthen our spiritual walk with God if we don't exercise it. Satan wants us to believe that this struggle is a bad thing, that God doesn't love us or even care about us, but this is not true. If He didn't care about us, He would let us wallow in our sins and leave us to suffer the consequences.
I am concerned that you relate holiness with something you can do yourself. God is the only One who can make you holy because He is the only One who is holy. Before we can have ANY real victory over our sins, we must accept God's gift of holiness and saving grace. We must recognize that we are sinners and that we are totally dependent on Him to release us from our sin through Christ, who suffered the punishment for our sin on the cross. When you are saved, God releases you from the bondage of sin. Yes, you will still sin; yes, there will be a struggle. No, life will not be easy or always happy--this world is ruled by Satan, and he wants no one to be happy. I can promise you that you can experience peace. Peace in knowing that there is Someone who cares about you, who will never leave you nor forsake you, who understands what you are going through, who is willing to forget what you have done against Him, who is willing to give you a second and then a millionth chance, who will help you if you ask Him, and who will ALWAYS be there for you. If this isn't the best relationship ever, I don't know what is. Just this knowledge alone should give you joy. I can promise you that this peace and joy can and will increase as you grow in your relationship with Him daily through prayer, praise, and reading His word. I can promise you that you will reach ultimate, eternal peace and joy when you join Him in heaven some day. You can even have this peace and joy through struggles. I have learned from some of the most persecuted (China) and most hindered people (severe physical difficulties) that struggles can bring you closer to God if you depend entirely on Him. They show daily that peace and joy do not depend on our physical circumstances but on our relationship to Him. God gives us this promise in I John 5:4 & 5, "...whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
I will finish with this. I have and am struggling with the sin of "self-pleasure." HOWEVER, through prayer and relying on God's grace, I am happy, no joyful, to say that I am experiencing victory over this sin! :)I do fall on occasion, but God has given me the power to say no and to overcome. In order to even begin to have victory, I had to stop relying on myself and rely on God, praying for His help whenever temptation arises. My struggle has brought me closer to the Lord, and I thank and praise Him for helping me and never giving up on me who so often fails Him. Paul ran the race and succeeded, and through God, so can I.

[62. Jo said the following at 9:15 AM on Feb 22:]

62

Whoa April, where did Eliza say she has 'rejected God'? And what right have you to say that she probably 'never believed in the first place'? You have no idea who she is or what her life involves. The first paragraph of your comment stopped me from reading any further.

[63. S. said the following at 9:45 AM on Feb 22:]

63

Eliza (58): First off, I want to make it clear that I am not attacking you as a person, only discussing the issue, which in my experience is a crucial one. :D I think you understand that, but I wanted to be sure.

I think the undergirding issue here is whether or not true victory is even possible, and what that looks like. I daresay that up until a little under a year ago, I was thinking along exactly the same lines as you. I had made significant headway, but it was always an underlying, nagging feeling of guilt.

It took God breaking me altogether in areas entirely separate, taking me to the very edge of despair so that, utterly exhausted, I had to beg Him for grace. And He gave it! He reached in and started touching me, changing me in ways I could sense even from day to day. I jumped into spiritual disciplines like Scripture meditation, seeking counsel from wise people and attacking underlying, sucking emotional wounds one by one. In my desperation, God was there. I have asked Him that I may never forget.

So victory is possible. I do not strive in the endless cycle of weary guilt every day. In fact, I don't even think about it for days and weeks at a time. It is possible. The links that Candice provides give some excellent advice to that end.

[64. obewan said the following at 10:26 AM on Feb 22:]

64

April at number 61 writes:

"I am sorry that you would prefer eternal punishment, pain, and sorrow to eternal peace, joy, and love in a relationship to God, leading me to believe that you never believed in Him in the first place."

I agree with Jo that you are putting words in Eliza's mouth that just are not there. What I heard her say (to paraphrase) is that many (unbelivers) reject God because they prefer to bask in the folly of their own sinful pleasures. That could be applied to drug addiction, illicit sex, or any other self-destructive behaviour, but not to "self pleasuring." Those other sins are sins against our own body and the Bible is more clear about the damnation that awaits those who will never repent from them.

[65. Eliza said the following at 1:41 PM on Feb 22:]

65

S.,

I definitely know that you are not attacking me. You have been nothing but genuine and gracious! And I really appreciate it:).

Maybe you're right about the victory. One of my best friends went through a really hard time recently when her pastor father walked out on his family, but she seems to have come to a place of "victory" (forgiveness and peace) about the whole thing. Just because I haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I think the main thing I'm learning right now is that the valleys are indeed as much a part of the journey as anything else. That there is no magic recipe of prayer & meditation to get a person "released from sin" or "closer to God" or whatever it is you want. Life is long, and heck, it might take that long just to come to a little glimmer of understanding. And it seems that I'm not in control of gaining that understanding. So I guess what I'm saying is, I just need to relax;).

Of course, relaxing doesn't mean "don't feel the pain." If anything it means relax into the pain. Whatever the pain is, I'm seeing that we cannot actually move forward until we take time to really understand where we are.

I still do not believe that masturbation is "sexual immorality", but that's just my opinion.

April,

I appreciate your sentiments, but you seem to see me as more simplistic than I really am. I have not rejected God--on the contrary, I believe I am now closer to discovering what a "real" relationship with Him is than ever before. In no way do I assume that the Christian life=full time peace and happiness. I just think it can't possibly mean full time depression and despair. Which is what my experience was at points in my life.

I have actually studied that Hebrews 12 passage quite a bit, doing Greek word studies of some of the verses. I still have more to learn.

obewan,

Thanks for defending me!! But actually, April was closer to what I meant to say:). I am not speaking about people who choose lives of "sin" for their own pleasure over lives of discipline with Heaven in mind. I am speaking of the distorted perspective that God is actually SUCH a bully that I would rather not be devoted to Him than to have to spend eternity under His thumb. I would probably continue an ethical, moral life, but with all my heart despise the god who I see as being the epitome of all things unjust and not good.

Obviously, like I said, this is a distorted picture. One that unfortunately has been nothing but re-emphasized by my youthful church experience. In a sense, April is right, and I do not really know this God of Love. If that is the case, it is not at all a result of rejecting Him. It is more a result of having been brought up under a betrayal of who He really is.

[66. Paulman said the following at 4:14 PM on Feb 22:]

66

Candice, I don't think you were too harsh at all! You were pretty straight-forward, but I think from the TONE of your writing, I could tell that you were trying to be empathetic, patient, and understanding. Sometimes I get the impression from another writer on Boundless (i.e. John Thomas - whom I hope won't mind a bit of constructive criticism) that he has a bit too much of a matter-of-fact, I-know-the-answer, "you just need to submit to God and the Scriptures" attitude, but I don't get that impression from you, including this most recent post.

One thing I would like to add to your response, though, is that the woman who wrote in is probably in great need for deep, meaningful connections with fellow women. I listen a lot to New Life Live, which features many Christian psychologists, and one thing they will often reinforce is that our troubles with sexual addiction as singles is often related to lack of quality, meaningful same-sex friend relationships.

[67. April said the following at 9:51 PM on Feb 22:]

67

Eliza: I am overjoyed in hearing that I read your post wrong! :) I thought your "I" meant you yourself despised God. I will pray for you in your walk with Him. Depression, unless it is a full-fledged psychological illness, comes from depending on our circumstances more than God. I've learned this one from experience. I know of people that live in a state that could drive anyone to despair; however, somehow, they have found a peace and a joy and a faith in God that is unbelievably powerful--they achieved this through fervent prayer. I know I am lightyears away from this kind of relationship with God, but I also know that it's possible. Even those closest to God faced despair (I'm thinking David especially), but God has always shown Himself true. I do not agree with your opinion on masturbation, though.

Obewan: How is masturbation NOT a sin against the body? Masturbation is a sin in every way. I have done a lot of research in the topic recently. Studies that are not conducted by those in support of the pornography industry reveal that masturbation has become or very easily becomes a replacement for the sexual fulfillment that we are supposed to have with our spouse. Polls reveal that the a very large percentage of women get more satisfaction from masturbation than from sex with their partners. Masturbation denies the person part of the pleasure that they are supposed to get only from their spouse. Plus, in my experience, masturbation can easily become something we have to do to get the sexual fulfillment our bodies need--the sexual fulfillment that God wants our spouses to give us instead.

Also, masturbation IS illicit sex. Sex is more than just the insertion of one organ into another (sorry, hard to be tactful here); it is also emotional and even spiritual. By meeting these physical/emotional/spiritual needs with someone/thing other than our spouse, we commit illicit sex.

The marriage relationship is supposed to be one of sole dependence on the other person. No, we may be able to live without them, but we are to demonstrate that we need them. By meeting our needs outside of the spouse, we are sinning against our spouse by betraying our dependence on them.

Masturbation is, most importantly, a sin against God. God gave us sexual desires, but He intends for us to act them out upon our spouse. Otherwise, why not just let us all meet our needs with just anyone like the animals do? We all have many other sinful desires, but does this mean that we just "scratch the itch" and act on these desires? As Christians, we are to have patience and wait on God's will. We detour His will by edging around his intentions for our sexual desires. Essentially, we are saying to God that we do not trust Him, nor do we need Him to provide all our needs for us. We show a trust in ourselves rather than God. This is sin against God. Even if something is not in and of itself harmful (little white lie anyone?) does not mean that it is not just as sinful as a "big" sin. We are to put our complete trust in the One who provides all things, even for the sparrows.

Damnation does not define sin--God does. We as Christians sin every day, but we do not face damnation. No, God does not directly define the sin of masturbation, but perhaps this is because it falls under the categories of so many other sins--the sins of selfishness, faithlessness, and pride to name a few.

(I have noticed that this topic has incited of lot responses involving "I think, I believe, in MY opinion." We need to keep in mind that it is not "my opinion" that counts, it is God. Make sure that your opinions and beliefs agree with what God says in His Word.)

S.: You are totally right about victory being possible! :)

Stephanie:
Emotional obsession is usually called infatuation. This can be hard to get over too. Perhaps one of our great Boundless writers can write an article on this! It can be a lot like the sin of masturbation in that it is about how "I" feel, not a true interest in the other person. It isn't love (I'm glad you don't call it that and recognize that it isn't). Love is not an obsession--in fact, love would be a willingness to let go of someone even if it is against my interests. Infatuation is wanting to keep someone because they help me to feel fulfilled or whole or help me to meet needs. I don't have a lot of advice to give on this one. The best I can say is claim God's promises that He will provide all for you and that He will BE all for you. Focus on your relationship to Christ. Remember that we can be complete only in Christ; nothing else will make us whole.

[68. Mandy said the following at 1:12 AM on Feb 23:]

68

Candice -

Thank you so much for writing this article! I am glad that someone is finally willing to admit that women also struggle in this area and need guidance. It frustrates me that many churches seem to pretend that this issue doesn't exist.

One question, though: Why do you guys at Boundless insist that masturbation is a sin? In your article, you quoted Theophilus, who said that masturbation is a sin because it ALWAYS includes sinful sexual fantasies. But what if it doesn't? The Bible never says that masturbation is a sin, so why can't it be a God-honoring activity? If done without immoral thoughts, it seems this could be a good way that our Creator gave us to rid ourselves of destructive sexual tension. If sexual tension is allowed to build up, it seems that sexual thoughts and sinful behavior would be more likely. I'm confused about why there's so much disagreement on this topic between Christians. (I found an article on the Youth Specialties site that was opposite of Boundless' views on masturbation - and both want to help me get closer to God!) I would be interested to hear more about this topic from you!!!

http://www.youthspecialties.com/articles/topics/
sexuality/masturbation.php

[69. Jo said the following at 1:40 AM on Feb 23:]

69

"Depression, unless it is a full-fledged psychological illness, comes from depending on our circumstances more than God."

Depression IS a full-fledged psychological illness. If it's rooted in our circumstances and easily changed by adjusting circumstances/outlook/behaviour, it's not depression. I realise the term 'depression' is often used in both contexts, but it shouldn't be.

[70. Stephanie said the following at 9:12 AM on Feb 23:]

70

Thanks, April.

I agree with what you said. It's easy for me to be all proud and haughty when people talk about sexual thoughts because it's just not something that I struggle with, and my first reaction is, "Just get over it!" But then I realized that my struggle with "emotional lust" is just like others' struggles with sexual lust: they have just as difficult time stopping their sexual thoughts as I do stopping my (non-sexual) obsessive thoughts about a guy. And I know that if I obsess over a guy in a compulsive and unhealthy way, I feel dirty afterwards, just like someone would who struggled with sexual thoughts.

Thanks, you had good insights.

[71. Melly Reed said the following at 1:32 PM on Feb 23:]

71

Hello Candice,

First, I want to say how much I appreciate your treatment of this delicate subject. Sexual sin of any kind is just as much of an issue now as it probably was in the congregation of Corinth (by implication) so I would say to all with a disclaimer not to back off a "walled garden" to your sexual purity with too much grace and forgiveness: Either way we lean too much can excerbate the problem. So getting at the "why" we're doing it is as much a part of the answer as the pragmatism of behavior replacement. I'm including a blog apologetic: "ForthWrite: Song of Solomon - God's view of Sex and Intimacy Missed Out By Most" URL (http://mreed.iupui.epsilen.com) (See my Blog ForthWrite, entry 2/2/2008) to help address the "why" as it deals more with that issue. I encourage readers here(if any feel moved to do so) to note especially the 2 quotes by G. K. Chesterton. Once you and I understand why we're doing it (and yes, I have had my bout with this particular sin when younger)then your prayers and replacement activities will be much more effective and you won't want to go back to this sin so that it becomes a "besetting" sin. Why? Because your spirit will WANT to be cooperating with the Holy Spirit and that's what we're aiming for, isn't it? Two more points I'll leave you with: we were made to desire intimacy spiritually and as humans to marry that desire into sexual epression. That's the root of all this, the good root. But as C. S. Lewis said, and please hear me on this, all evil (sin) is only "spoiled goodness". That is very important to grasp here. Now think back to the quote in my blog essay (if you read it) from Chesterton about a "vulgar joke being a subtle and spritual idea." This is a pretty nasty trick of the enemy to divert your's and mine natural desire for sacred intimacy, which must start with and be fufilled in God first before all other relationships, and turn it inward to self-gratification which is a form of Idolatry. Think about the wedding vows when the words repeat "With my body, I thee worship." Who are you an I worshipping at that point when we masterbate to fill this sacred desire? So getting our minds off the idea that sex is just "natural", a body function, and realizing that you and I have got ahold of a very powerful and sacred gift that we want to reserve like the special china for the right occassion is the first step to conquering this problem. It is a sad reality, but we don't teach sacredness as effectively as we could in the family, we don't treat the first relationships, i.e., mother and father, daughter and son as sacred as they should be. This establishes sacredness in other areas as well and sacredness is all about understanding proper boundaries: God is sacred (set apart). You and I are set apart, too. Our body parts are set apart. Our feelings/need for intimacy with God are innate and we are all on the search for that and emotional stake get very high when puberty sets in. At the same time, our feelingsneed for intimacy with our eartly father and our earthly mother hopefully get met in a godly way and set apart when we are growing up, but if they don't as puberty sets in, we start manifesting and trying to "marry" those feelings in ways that are not sacred but enslaved. Our body parts are discussed in this same fashion by Paul in showing our freedom from sin's grasp when we become a different kind of slave: to righteousness.(Romans 1-16 chapters) We all have room to improve in this area. But once we return to the concept of sacredness and believe that it is possible even in this postmodern day, God can "make our paths smooth" (Proverbs 3:6) as He has promised us and we won't have to struggle near as much over these things so we can press on to the other maturities and blessings, one of which is marriage without the blush of unconquered sin. It can be done, my dear brothers and sisters. Christ will do it in you!

[72. Julia said the following at 5:05 PM on Feb 23:]

72

Thank you so much Candace for writing this. I know this was not an easy piece to write. Your knowledge and wisdom have helped me many times in life.

I don't know where I stand on this issue to be very frank. Both sides make very compelling scripture based arguments.

For many years I struggled. At first it was nothing but an accidental discovery connected with a pleasurable ending. From ages 11-16 it was only curiosity. I really thought it was just a phase that I'd grow weary of. Never lust or anything else was tied to it.

16-21 it was nothing more than that "itch to scratch" thing - I did it to control myself in my dating life. It was very successful and again I never thought anything sinful or lustful but I can say that all of those years were FULL of guilt. A few years ago

I finally mustered up the courage to talk to my closest Christian friend about it. I wanted to come clean and have an accountability partner so that I could stop what was a seeming physical addiction. I also needed to know whether or not I was alone. I felt so dirty and alone. That was the wrong decision because my friend completely freaked out and our relationship was never the same again. That just made me feel dirtier than ever.

After that encounter though I dug deeper into the Bible and read online trying to see if I was or was not wrong. I still don't know - as to me this is something that in moderation without lust may be ok.

Thank you other posters for making me realize that I'm not alone. That other very devoted Christian women struggle here too. Though I am not brave enough to find a new accountability partner this article and your comments have given me the courage to push ahead and try to move past this 'phase' of my life once and for all.

[73. April said the following at 12:07 AM on Feb 24:]

73

Julia: Perhaps when you were using masturbation to control yourself during your dating life, you were using it to act out lustful thoughts you experienced earlier toward the one you were dating. Lust is simply a sexual urge toward a person; therefore, perhaps you were acting out that sexual urge for your date in a different way, but it was still lust.

People have a very negative connotation concerning lust, and they should! However, one is not sinning if they are lusting after their spouse. Lust within a marriage relationship becomes wrong when it overrides love. Just a thought.

Our society is very sexual, which means that sexual sins increase due to increased exposure. The Bible says that as a man thinks, so is he. Because we happen to be bombarded with sex all the time, we are also thinking about it more. No one should be surprised that this is the case. I think people have trouble talking about this subject because it is so intensely personal. It is easier to talk about it when you are anonymous. However, because sexual temptation can be so strong, many people reserve any kind of talk concerning their personal sexual problems for their spouse or counselor. Besides, we just never know what kind of response we'll get.

[74. Katie B said the following at 9:16 PM on Feb 24:]

74

April- you raise a good point, that the sexual urges she was trying to control while dating were probobly brought about by the dating. However I think it a little strange to call it lust if she was unaware of it.
I think the main damage, notice I dont say sin, although I believe it is sin, it is the effects of the action that make it so. the damage of scratching the itch is that the God given sexual appetite, which was designed for communion and consumation with another person, is turned inward, sex becomes an individual matter, and the sexual response is divorced from the sacred intamacy that it was originally meant for. Sex is an incredible picture of the intamact that GOd wants with us, sexual sin happens when we distort that.

[75. Eliza said the following at 8:29 AM on Feb 25:]

75

In case Julia hasn't read the above 70+ posts, I'd just like to make sure that there is more than one view represented to her.

Whether masturbation is a sin is not at all a settled issue in the church. Many conservative Christians (including Dr. James Dobson, as someone mentioned above) do not think it is a sin, or even "harmful" or "damaging".

The "damaging" effects, as Katie B (#74) put it, are not solely or obviously a consequence of masturbation. The guilt and struggle to avoid it can be equally if not more damaging both to one's own self-image AND one's sexual relationship with their spouse. Let's not assume that alleged purity of actions automatically equals a happy sex life. Happy sex in marriage is a combination of grace, communication, vulnerability, risk-taking (definitely being ready and willing to try new things) and a BIG sense of humor. In my opinion, the over-spiritualization of sexuality and the single person can--and often does--indeed harm future sexual happiness.

I do not think that masturbation is a sin (see my reasoning in post #58).

I also highly disagree with April that the definition of "lust" is "simply a sexual urge toward a person". That is a dangerous over-simplification. Some may say it is better to be safe than sorry, but I believe it is equally wrong to call everything a sin as it is to call nothing a sin. Webster's defines "lust" as "intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness". That is, a sexual craving, akin to covetousness or greed. As you known, lust is included in the seven deadly sins, and is put on the same level as greed, gluttony, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. Just as "pride" does not mean "feeling happy for who you are" and "gluttony" does not mean "hunger", so "lust" does not mean "sexual arousal".

Sexual arousal is a biological function akin to hunger, in that it is a completely natural physical occurrence. To say that sexual arousal is a sin (because nobody has the power to limit the physical fact of arousal to the presence of a certain person) is to declare God's design of humanity as flawed.

It is my personal opinion that the Evangelical church's obsession with its own idea of sexual purity is counterproductive in that it closets all desire, which people inevitably act out in actual (as opposed to imagined) perversions. Christians in search of holy living are creeping more and more towards Pharisaical control of their own righteousness, blocking out the spirit of God's law and actual understanding of His character in the process.

[76. Julia said the following at 9:17 AM on Feb 25:]

76

Thanks to the above posters. I have read all of the posts. More than anything I was writing to get some thoughts off of my mind. :)

I see all arguments and everyone's points. I'm just not sure what to think, which is why I am taking it off of me and putting it at the feet of Jesus.

[77. xeres said the following at 10:13 AM on Feb 25:]

77

Eliza,

You have raised good points. However, I do not appreciate the fact holiness and purity is seen as Pharisaical at all. I mean, the American dating culture overall is hedonistic, and comercialized in a bad way. Frankly, how can any person tolerate all the balony what is going on in the dating relam? However, I don't see the courtship movement to be a solution for as long as people in general have screwed-up convictions about relationships. Plus, counter-cultural doesn't always mean bibical. Nevertheless, I despised the hook-up, bed hopping, sexually exploitive culture.

What's wrong with encouraging Christian to be celibate/chaste until marriage anyway? It is good idea and I find it more romantic that I'm sharing myself sexually with only my spouse.

I'm not trying make you feel awful or saying all this because I don't like what you have to say. You made good points about sexuality and you remind a lot of people that we are sexual. I wish you said it with the recognition that practicing celibacy being marriage or throughout one's life as a ummarried person does not mean that person is less of sexual person nor does it mean they are not sexually repressed at all. This is why I hate movies like "The 40-Year-old Virgin".

[78. Katie B said the following at 12:03 PM on Feb 25:]

78

Eliza, I agree with you that sexual arousal is not the same as lust, and is a natural function of our bodies, designed by God, similar to hunger. I have trouble with using that to justify masturbation, however. Have you ever met a hard core anorexic? I have, between denying the natural function of hunger to tell us we should eat, and taking fiber pills and appetite suppressants so that she doesnt feel hunger, she is destroying her relationship with food. As Christians we can also go to either extreme, by denying sexual arousal as bad and not preparing for healthy sexual intamacy. But we can also deny what our sexual desires are meant to lead to by mastubating, like fiber pills, we might be able to 'control' our arousal, but we are still missing the point of what sex was meant for... intamacy, and training our minds and bodys to separate the desire for intamcy from the desire for sex.

[79. Eliza said the following at 12:45 PM on Feb 25:]

79

Xeres (#77),

I never meant to condone or even justify "American dating practices". I really hope that didn't come across in my post. I think that casual sex and jumping partners is absolutely against God's plan for us. And I will say it specifically--premarital sexual involvement is a sin. I hope there is no doubt about what I think about that.

My point is specifically about occasional masturbation in order to keep oneself chaste. Masturbation is not sex. Nobody pretends that it is intimacy of any kind. It is not "making love". It is an entirely separate thing altogether, something that is available in order to keep oneself contentedly celibate. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND staying sexually pure before marriage, so that all your sexual experiences are with your spouse. However, masturbation is not really a "sexual experience". I believe it is God's gift to singles to keep them safely pure for their future spouse. I'm sorry if I didn't make my position clearer in my last post.

Katie B. (#78)

Using the food analogy, exactly like you said, I would say that trying desperately not to have any kind of sexual release is like being anorexic. It is the total denial of your desires so much that you go crazy and eventually binge. Not healthy at all. Likewise, gluttony is definitely bad. As is sexual obsession.

What I'd say to your comment about missing the point about what sex is for is this: masturbation is not sex. By "controlling" our arousal, we are free to appreciate all the spiritual and emotional intimacy that sex brings. Likewise, by eating steadily instead of starving ourselves, we are able to really value a delicious meal. If we starved ourselves we would be so ravenous that we wouldn't appreciate the quality of the food going in.

~~~~~~~

I feel awful about having sounded like I think holiness and purity are Pharisaical and bad. What I meant to say is that the Evangelical church has a Pharisaical idea about what holiness and purity are. True chastity is trusting God for your future while appreciating your own sexuality (masturbation perhaps being a necessary part of that) and treating others as brothers and sisters in Christ.

In sum: no to free love; yes to healthy sexuality. I hope that makes more sense :).

[80. Christina said the following at 1:15 PM on Feb 25:]

80

Katie and the others with this point of view:
I appreciate the concern for wanting to preserve sexual intimacy for marriage. I just wonder how much credit your giving masturbation for satisfying that hunger. I know there are reports from the male psych side that shows that prolific use of porn and masturbation can lead to a decline in interest for the real thing. But is that a pornography downfall or a masturbation downfall?

Personal experience, masturbation (or the more conservative "scratching the itch") doesn't satisfy my need for physical and emotional intimacy. I still crave it the way I'm supposed to, but I feel I have more control over natural urges when I've "scratched the itch". The itch is still there and isn't going anywhere. The things I would enjoy doing to a man I'm madly in love with and married to seriously don't compare to what we're discussing here.

As I'm still unclear about this entire issue, I appreciate hearing the other point of view, i just don't feel that this particular point has been addressed satisfactorily.

And I seriously feel very weird discussing this in a place where men are fully capable of reading it >.<

[81. Julia said the following at 4:47 PM on Feb 25:]

81

Christina, when you say:

"Katie and the others with this point of view:
I appreciate the concern for wanting to preserve sexual intimacy for marriage. I just wonder how much credit your giving masturbation for satisfying that hunger...Personal experience, masturbation (or the more conservative "scratching the itch") doesn't satisfy my need for physical and emotional intimacy. I still crave it the way I'm supposed to, but I feel I have more control over natural urges when I've "scratched the itch". The itch is still there and isn't going anywhere. The things I would enjoy doing to a man I'm madly in love with and married to seriously don't compare to what we're discussing here."

You are very right there. That is exactly where I stand on things. It does not remove any guilt that may be there and that still helps to muddy the waters some but that is said far better than I could ever express it.

I know that especially in my younger years it was nothing inherently 'sexual' at all. It was more of an oh wow my body does that type thing.

Though I agree that it's probably not the most worship filled activity - and without a doubt something I'd rather live without - I'm not totally convinced that without the lust or pornography issue it's not as bad as what others say.

[82. Fred said the following at 5:35 AM on Feb 26:]

82

The question is to those who think masturbation isn't a sin - do you do it without thinking about anyone? (because that's the only way it can possibly not be sinful - when Jesus said if you sin in your heart etc.) And do you defend masturbation based on anything biblical?

[83. Katie B said the following at 8:29 AM on Feb 26:]

83

Eliza: I dont think that it is avoiding release that makes us 'sexually anorexic' but the fact that, with food, hunger should lead to eating food, for nourishment and health. I am not one of the 'sex is only for the babies' advocates, but I think sexual desire should lead us to the full, healthy consumation of that, which would be sexual intamcy in marriage. Masturbation, with or without fantacies, divorces sexual desire and release from intamacy, we will still crave intamacy, of course, we were built that way, but things become muddy, I speak as someone who has gone through periods of sexual arousal and release without intamacy, though not masturbation, though arguably any sexual release without intamacy would be akin to it. Sex, desire and fulfillment was meant to foster intamacy, and changing that to make it an individual process can be harmful in the long run.

Just to say, I am saying this completely apart from sin, guilt, or shame. I dont know if masturbation is sin, but everything that is permissible is not nessesarily beneficial, and we tend to see better in hindsight, after something seemingly innocuous shows consequences we hadnt anticipated.

[84. Christina said the following at 8:35 AM on Feb 26:]

84

Fred and Julia, cuz my response individually somehow hinges on the same verses...>.<

Fred, my only biblical defense (and this is because the bible doesn't say anything AGAINST masturbation - just fornification [which i think is actually having sex...not sure though]), is all of Romans 14, but these verses in particular:
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin." - Romans 14:22-23

There are times when I feel guilty for masturbation - usually when it is accompanied by pornographic use or fantasies in my head. I don't do it often, but it has happened...not gonna lie. Those times, I'm usually overcome by guilt and I'm quite certain what I did was a sin.

However, when that certain time of the month rolls around when my body is craving sex, "scratching the itch" gives me relief without thinking about a man or using other materials - simply reveling in the intense pleasure God created my body to achieve...and yes...Its possible for me not to fanatasize. In those times, there is no guilt accompanying it. Not to mention that (how appropriate is it to use this word on this forum? Replace it if necessary) orgasms help with relieving the pain of menstrual cramps >.< (Its true...I read it, i tried it, it works!!!) Considering that is a very big problem for me, to the point that pain relievers don't work on occassion, this is a help.

To Julia, this verse would also lead me to advice you not to participate in this act when it leads to guilt. Some part of you doesn't know whether it is right or wrong. And as long as you are unsure, I do think it would be a sin for you to do it...(per the above verse). Pray about it. Is it acceptable or not? Read Romans 14. It gives some good guidance for when scripture doesn't deal with something explicitly. At least, its what I use until I've found a scripture that addresses something explicitly...or until my walk with God leads me to a point where I do begin to feel it's wrong.

Seriously, if your primary goal is to come to a closer walk with God and you are focusing on loving and obeying him, then this stuff will work its self out. There have been many things that I didn't think were wrong and I had no guilt over that a conviction in its wrongness grew overtime. There are other things that that has not happened to. This is one of them. Either that will come with time, or there really isn't anything wrong with it...

It sounds so relativistic...its so strange. I never thought the bible would allow for something so relative as this argument, but that verse and chapter seem to lead to that.

I'm up for hearing any other arguments.

[85. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:51 AM on Feb 26:]

85

Fred, if you read some of the comments posted, some women
(1) don't fantasize.
(2) find that by not engaging in "self-pleasure" they are more prone to commit other sins. So it comes down to "commit this one sin or commit three other sins that have more of a ripple effect than that one sin". There are times when one feels like they are in a Catch-22 when it comes to "self-pleasure".
I realize that I am referring to masturbation as a sin. I fall in line with those that have voiced it is outside of God's design for sexuality. I don't think masturbation was occuring in the Garden. It is a result of the fall.
Although in an age of delayed marriage, increased irresponsibility, and a host of other issues that Boundless seeks to address, it shouldn't come as a surprise that females seek to meet needs that the Lord has given us.

[86. Christina said the following at 9:03 AM on Feb 26:]

86

Yeay for math skills being detrimental to my vocabulary. I won't address spelling or grammar mistakes (though I do profusely apologize)...

Fornication (ha...fornification...):
Voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

I always thought that was what adultery meant...got confused when both words were used in the same sentence and used to thing fornication was masturbation...actually, adultery is more specialized than that...

Adultery:
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

[87. Fred said the following at 4:29 PM on Feb 26:]

87

That was one of my concerns - that masturbation could only be ok if you were not thinking about another person.

But I'm also concerned about people's reasoning for doing it - if it stops you from another sin then isn't it still wrong? (although a 'lesser' sin is better than a 'greater' one but it could become a cop-out that's all); just because you have a desire doesn't make it right (or wrong); and just because it has benefits doesn't make it right - I'm not saying it's right or wrong but we have to be careful that we don't use these as excuses.

[88. Katie B said the following at 9:16 PM on Feb 26:]

88

I agree with fred. trying to choose the lesser evil is a slippery slope. I dont know if it is a sin, in the traditional sense of the word. although I do believe it always has negative consequences sooner or later.
I have a pastoral ministry professor who says "if your going to sin, sin big" meaning, take ownership of whats going on, the sins of omission do more spiritual damage than the sins of commission. Shame and guilt are terrible, but they drive you to the cross, denial and justification do the opposite.

[89. Julia said the following at 12:27 PM on Feb 28:]

89

Just to clarify, I was not advocating anything. I was simply offering up a few differing views. Straight up, I think that avoiding even the appearance of evil applies to behaviour behind closed doors.

[90. Richard said the following at 11:27 PM on Jul 21:]

90

I have struggled with this issue for a long time in my life.

First of all, no where in the Bible does it specifically say that masturbation is a sin. The Bible condemns all sorts of sexual activities, such as beastality, homosexuality, and premarital sex, but never mentions masturbation. If it is a sin (and a serious one), then why doesn't the Bible condemn it as one ? We don't want to become like the Pharisees, adding man-made laws to God's laws, and then condemning people who don't follow the laws which are ours, not neccessarily God's.

All Christian morality has to be defined by what is beneficial to our relationship with God and with others. If something harms our relationship to God, or to others, then it is wrong. I can't see how masturbation affects either relationship.

Having said that, I don't think masturbation is that helpful either. It is usually a gateway for evil thoughts to come into the mind because it is so closely linked with pornography. It is very rare for it to not be linked with harmful pornographic thoughts.

I personally have decided not to masturbate, but I want to make it clear that decision is one that the Holy Spirit prompted me to make in my life; I can't speak for what the Holy Spirit prompts people to do in thier life.