Church Cliques: Episode #4
by Motte Brown on 02/19/2008 at 4:56 PM
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In this week's The Boundless Show, we discuss how easy it is for Christians to form little cliques within the church and how prohibitive it can be to outreach and healthy community. Is it a characteristic of a consumer mentality?
For our culture segment Lisa and Candice discuss Juno, an Indy film that's getting a lot of attention from Christians because of its "back-handed" pro-life message. I went to see it over the weekend and think it's sort of a raunchy Napoleon Dynamite. So before you go, be sure to read the review at PluggedInOnline.com because there's content that may offend your sensibilities.
Kara Schwab is back for The Hungry Years with a story about how God uses big Italian grandmothers to bring children to himself. It's funny and truly heartwarming. Ted confessed that he teared up when he heard it.
We end the show with a question from a reader who's addicted to explicit romance novels. Candice tackles this one with some solid advice like throwing away the smutty books on your shelves and replacing them with good ones; and putting down the fiction for awhile and picking up some biographies. She also provides list of books on The Line here.
Here are the segment breaks in case you want to skip to your favorite or go back and listen to something twice:
Intro
Roundtable -- 2:53
Culture -- 11:29
Hungry Years -- 18:25
Inbox -- 22:50
As always you can subscribe to the show on iTunes or with RSS. Listen and let us know what you think.
1. Kelly said the following at 6:01 PM on Feb 19:
"Church cliques" are a difficult concept. I confess that I am in one, made up of my very dearest friends. We have set aside one night a week to all come together and know that this event excludes outsiders. We try to keep it quiet, but inevitably people get hurt.
So why not invite others, you might wonder? We had a period where we did but we lost the relational intimacy of what we had. When you've suddenly got a group of 30 people rather than 10, it becomes chaos, more of an 'event', less of a 'spiritual refreshment'.
Any suggestions on how to solve this problem?
2. eve said the following at 6:08 PM on Feb 19:
as weird as this may sound to american ears, the "clique" issue speaks a lot about the practice of non-interactive church gatherings.
we too often get together, everyone's facing forward (even during "corporate" worship through music), it ends, a few people hang out, and everyone else leaves.
where did that come from?
is that in the bible? lol!
corporate worship that is more interactive will bring about a greater sense of community that will snuff out a lot of the cliques.
3. DannieA said the following at 7:24 PM on Feb 19:
without comparing cliques in school/life to cliques in church
is this a wrong thing? I mean think about it...if we didn't want people to form tight bonds with other Christians, then why be passionate about people joining a small group....bible study...Christian mothers playgroup... etc?
Think about it...what keeps us in church? if we didn't have people to hang out with and/or be accountable with, then would we stay?
We should reach out and be genuinely friendly with people at church, but as a single person who just this past year started being a groupie with my bible study friends (new this year) I am glad we are able to have strong circles of friendships at church.
4. Kathryn said the following at 8:14 PM on Feb 19:
Kelly, I'm someone who's been excluded from a church clique, and I've recently joined a church plant because it became too much of an issue for me. It seemed that most of the other girls specifically my age were in this clique. Having come from that, I suggest that ways to make it not so exclusionary is when at church or Bible study, don't make them the group that you hang with then. You have your own evening, don't make church that too. There's also one on one time you could spend developing a friendship with someone who isn't in that group. You may have insider jokes, quotes, references, whatever. Be mindful that mentioning those can be exclusionary.
On one hand I know that I shouldn't begrudge these girls the encouragement and growth that these groups bring. But what about me? Don't I get the chance to bond with a group of women? Why can't I be the 11th person to join? What makes me such a freak that I can't be with them too? Do they think they're better than me? Am I not pretty enough? Do I not watch Gilmore Girls and that's the issue?
I've passed asking those questions and have come to peace with it. I recognise that there are too many personality differences between me and those girls (for one, I spend way too much time bonding with women over the internet. ;D). But I'm asking them so that you'll know what goes through the mind of someone on the outside and you can extend grace towards them.
I still meet up with a group of girls I went to school (not church) with, slowly they're becoming Christians as the years go by and God works in their hearts. But we don't meet up once a week every week, we maybe meet up once a month when we're not busy. We usually have something on a weekend night and we invite many others, but not many can come at the late notice on a typically busy night, so we end up having small intimate gatherings anyway that other's can join, so it's not exclusive.
Spend time in prayer regarding this with the other women you spend time with. Try to come up with ways that you can all reach out to other women in your church. Ways that don't mean you have to invite them along, but still spend time with them. If all of you go out to a movie, invite them. Maybe only have some of the girls over for dinner, and then invite some of the women not in your group over for dinner as well.
In love, Kat
5. brx said the following at 8:58 PM on Feb 19:
Close friendships are good, exclusive friendships maybe not so much. I think there's a balance to be walked between being welcoming and the need to develop trust and intimacy. Something I try to consider: if there isn't room for growth, we might be building a stagnant pond.
I think the Boundless team is getting better at doing the Show project. One suggestion you might try for the Hungry Years recording: have another person sit with Kara (or whoever is doing the talking) and ask her to just tell the story to this other person in the 'passenger seat' rather than straight reading it into a microphone. Yeah, I'm saying they're great stories but they do sound a bit like me reading a bed-time story to some kids.
I look forward to the next one!
Grace, peace & adventure!
6. BDB said the following at 9:12 PM on Feb 19:
Is a clique much different from a "small group?" I wonder if mega-churches have duplicate cliques that consider themselves to be equally trendy but the don't meet each other because they are in different services, etc...
So, who are the people in "The Boundless Show" picture? I think I recognize Ted from his wedding photos...
7. Janice said the following at 12:07 AM on Feb 20:
Ok, so when I first saw Boundless was going to do a podcast I groaned inside. Part of me was excited because Boundless content is always thought-provoking, relevant, and challenging but the other part of me was thinking, "oh, I hope they're going to do a good job and not be lame and get my hopes up and then taper off in a few months." You guys have knocked yet another proverbial ball out of the park. Your segments are interesting, your banter is witty, "real," and I feel like I'm sitting in Starbucks overhearing a group of trendy, hip, thoughtful human beings talk about real life! Thanks for the podcasts to date and keep up the great work. I'm sure it takes effort but it's working! I never thought about what your voices sound like but hearing each writer talk gives an even greater connection when I read your columns; I'm already looking forward to next week.
8. Jason said the following at 12:35 AM on Feb 20:
I know this might not be a popular idea in this inclusivistic society, but not everyone is meant to be my best friend the same way that not everyone is meant to know about all of my problems. Not everyone has the "right" advice, and some basically need to keep their opinions to themselves, even if it is "biblical" advice.
There are some people at my church who, even though they are good people, are just hard to be friends with. This one person in particular is all about fluffy praise n' worship music and doesn't like movies that "excite" them. I like Nine Inch Nails and movies like V for Vendetta. Not hard to figure out we would only get along some of the time.
9. Rachael said the following at 1:00 AM on Feb 20:
Cliques. BDB (6) asked if a clique is much different than a small group. It seems hard to pinpoint exactly what a clique is. Of course if there is intentional exclusion or an unwelcoming spirit of new people or 'outsiders', the group could fall into the clique category. It can be hard when on the outside of a perceived 'clique' or situation where everyone seems to know each other. Perceived cliques might not always be real cliques. The people who look like they know each other well in actuality might not. And it's definitely possible for the 'outsider' to become an 'insider' (if the others are welcoming, and as they all get to know each other). It might be hard to avoid sending clique vibes if people tend to gravitate toward the same people. Difficult. Can the solution be to still talk to people you want to talk to (and may only see in certain settings) while simultaneously welcoming new people 'in'? If you talked to different people each week (in a church setting), you wouldn't really cultivate depth unless you served with them otherwise or saw them on additional days of the week. When there's only x-amount of time, and if you only spend x-amount of time talking with a good friend and look past them as you talk to them because you want to be welcoming to others, that might not give the best signals to the person 'in the clique' either...hard to please everyone. The solution? Maybe...love and patience.
And something fun. When I was a student, I think in one of my classes we'd often sit in different seats (usually in classes people tend to sit in the same seats each time). I think this was a good thing...and I wonder if the principle/technique could be applied to churches as well. If someone were to sit in a different part of the church each time, they would likely get to interact with more people, as people tend to sit in the same general areas in churches as well. I'm not at the point where I want to do this because I still don't recognize everyone I see on 'my side of the church', and it's likely that I meet new people, but after awhile, this might be a fun adventure :)
10. Ben said the following at 6:13 AM on Feb 20:
Cliques are easy to develop in today's church because many of the church structures that we've allowed to develop over the centuries are not focused on the original goal of church meetings: the edification of the believers (1 Cor. 14:26).
When the church members are divided into age categories and forced to sit in rows so that they cannot see each others' faces for much of the service, it is only natural that much of the social interaction and edification that is intended for church is lost.
The early church described in the New Testament met in homes and consisted of several families, in which all ages gathered and interacted equally with the purpose of edifying the members as they worshiped God.
11. Cliff said the following at 6:56 AM on Feb 20:
There is someone coming to my church for a while. He is seeking God and is an introvert.
As a result of his quietness, no one talks to him and he spends most of the time in the church by himself.
Over the weekend, I realize that he has been a year in my church. That just breaks my heart.
Here is someone who is seeking God and figure the best way is to find Him through church. Instead of welcoming him with open arms and share the love of Christ, we give him the cold shoulder.
Irony huh?
12. Motte said the following at 6:58 AM on Feb 20:
BDB:
Regarding comment #6. From left to Right on the new photo at the top of the Boundless homepage: Candice, Steve, Me, Lisa, Ted.
13. John D. said the following at 7:05 AM on Feb 20:
Cliff (post 11) wrote,
"There is someone coming to my church for a while. He is seeking God and is an introvert.
As a result of his quietness, no one talks to him and he spends most of the time in the church by himself."
That sounds like me. I'm really not the clique type. At the end of the service a lot of people will immediately turn and start gabbing furiously with their neighbors while others of us quietly file out. I actually prefer it that way. Church for me has always been more of a contemplative experience. I want to walk out with the sermon and the hymns still echoing in my head. I want church to feel more like a sanctuary and less like a cocktail party.
14. Christina said the following at 8:50 AM on Feb 20:
First of all - Cliques defined as tightly knit groups of friends is not wrong...until they exclude anyone else from invading.
Its true, 30 people is a hard group to stay close to...but i sincerely doubt it will ever get that big. Start with 5 people, meet one more...not that big a deal...meet another and make it 7...when it starts to feel big, people naturally realign - not as "i'm not friends with you anymore", but in "I connect with this person..." It naturally breaks off into close knit groups, but keeps those close knit groups connected to eachother, as well.
The whole life stage thing comes into play because a single person can't ask they're married friends if they want to go catch the latest movie on a Friday night. Your married friends are likely doing something that is not going to include you. Nothings wrong with that either - but broadening your connections and GETTING connected shoudl definilty not be limited to who is like you or in the same life stage as you. It helps you develop THOSE relationships as well, while opening urself up to growing.
15. Christina said the following at 9:05 AM on Feb 20:
The rest of that episode, Candice gave REALLY good advice. Now to get the discipline and motivation to do it >.<
16. Christina said the following at 10:37 AM on Feb 20:
John on 13...lol...this number thing is odd...
I'm very much the same way - but with a slightly different attitude. I like feeling reverent and close to God...but at the same time I desperately want to share and discuss it with someone else...a close friend perhaps? Sometimes I'm ok with being on my own and too contemplative to carry on a good conversation after church, but other times I have ideas bouncing in my head that just need to be let out.
As soon as the last hymn is sung and the person next to me starts talking about the party they went to on Friday night as if they had been waiting the entire service to tell me all about the guy they met or what they're doing at work all week, as if they hadn't just spent the last 90 minutes being soaked in the presence of God, I want to tell them to be silent and let me continue to enjoy my peaceful rest in God's arms and peace for a few minutes more...
Thing is...because of my wanting to talk about God at church, in the park, in the middle of the woods, in my living room...I don't have a very good connection with others that aren't that interested in it...and that's where I see the real cliques forming.
Real (ungodly) cliqueiness, imo, is linked to what that one guy was trying to convey in his interview about his book Un-Christian.
Church really isn't the best place to MAKE friends - its an excellent place to MEET them, though. You take the socializing outside the sanctuary. But initiate the meeting inside the church.
So John, what are you doing after church? Would you accept a lunch invitation from someone who approached you after church? Take your time going to the place to socialize and continue soaking God in and worshipping him on your silent drive to lunch?
17. MCW said the following at 11:09 AM on Feb 20:
I agree with Ben (10) that today's meetings create the ideal setting for cliques. And without demanding that everyone become everyone's best friend, the call to become part of the church (body of Christ not building) means that it should have a different feel to other types of organisations (for lack of a better word). How else would we be able to bear one another's burdens, look after widows and orphans, and be in pain when other parts of the body were hurting? This is the role of the local church. I have been challenged to think of the church body as family and what that implies for relationships. So I can have close relationships with a few age-mates but also look beyond these to give and receive from the rich tapestry that is my extended family.
18. BDB said the following at 7:08 PM on Feb 21:
So Motte (#12) - do you mean:
Candice - Steve - Lisa - Motte - Ted
19. Motte said the following at 7:29 PM on Feb 21:
BDB (#18):
The left to right order of the old picture -- the one on iTunes -- is Lisa, Me, Candice, Steve, and Ted. The new photo -- the one that's on the Boundless homepage -- is Candice, Steve, Me, Lisa, and Ted.
20. BDB said the following at 11:00 PM on Feb 21:
Motte: (#19) oh - iTunes...I wasn't even looking there. I get some kind of setup page on iTunes, so I don't quite know how to get to that picture.
I was originally looking at the picture on "The Line..." - I should have specified...
I see now - you've got the orange jacket. I understand now - thanks!
21. Brittney said the following at 11:31 AM on Feb 22:
I just started listening to the podcasts and they are great!!! I've loved everything I've heard so far, just trying to work my way through them, geting caught up, so I can comment in the "present." But props to you all - thanks for doing such a great job!!
22. P. Van Vuren said the following at 8:04 AM on Feb 25:
I agree with Brittney...what I have heard so far is pretty good. I love the format where it starts with the casual conversational style, then the moment of music interlude, followed by coming back and nailing a topic with more focus. I am waiting for the subject matter to move beyond dating and church single groups. I think 5 episodes of that now is enough overkill for any topic.
23. Veronica said the following at 9:09 PM on Sep 13:
I can understand get togethers, but when a clique develops in a very small church choir due to the behavior of the music director, there is definitely a problem.
24. Serenthia said the following at 11:21 AM on Jul 21:
I think church cliques are highly overrated, me personally. I truly feel in my heart and spirit that discord and confusion being birthed in the local fellowships, is the enemies way of keeping segregation in the body. Jesus wont return until we all come under the unity of the faith. So, if our attention is diverted from our ultimate goal. Which is seeking purpose and walking out destiny how can we fulfill the call upon our lives. The bible tells us how a house divided against itself cant stand. Do not let the enemy have his way with discord and confusion. God gets the glory and He will be magnified and exaulted above all that comes against His people. Be encouraged and be strengthend, knowing that you are fearfully and wonderfully made and fashioned in His image and likeness....I LOVE EVERYBODY!!!