unChristian
by Denise Morris on 01/04/2008 at 3:00 PM
I am currently reading a book called unChristian by a guy named David Kinnaman. (So are a lot of people, apparently. Chuck Colson wrote about it today as well.) So far, it's pretty interesting. Kinnaman works for the Barna Research Group and he spent quite awhile gathering research about young people's view of Christians and Christianity. He also polled young people within the church, and, surprisingly their views matched the "outsiders" thoughts pretty closely.
Kinnaman discovered that the view of Christians is, in general, quite negative. Christians are seen as hypocritical, too focused on getting converts, anti-homosexual, sheltered, too political and judgmental.
Whether these things are true about Christians or not, these are the perceptions people have of us. And what I thought was extremely interesting and profoundly sad is that the people polled were not getting the majority of their negative feelings from the "liberal media." They were getting them from Christians themselves:
Being hurt by Christianity is far more common among the young than among older outsiders. Three out of every ten young outsiders said they have undergone negative experiences in churches and with Christians. Such hurtful experiences are part of the stories of nearly one out of every two young people who are atheists, agnostics, or of some other faith.
Kinnaman notes that Christians have become "famous for what we oppose, rather than who we are for." He points out that people in this generation are naturally skeptical of everything -- not just Christians. They are looking for genuine people, and they see Christians as people who pretend as though we are perfect, when, in fact, we live very similar lives to non-Christians.
Kinnaman said that the automatic reaction of some Christians to this research is to say, "whelp, we expect the world to hate us. Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers." This sentiment is true to an extent. Christians receive push back because they are promoting biblical truths and values in a relativistic society. Many people don't want to hear that they're wrong.
However, this does not give us license to avoid the truth in this research. Christians have a bad reputation, and we've apparently done something to get it. Kinnaman points out that we are to represent God's holiness and His grace in our interactions with non-believers.
I've heard some things like this before, but after reading through this research, it is quite sobering to realize how non-Christians view me and my friends. And although Kinnaman is sure to note that in order to fix this problem we should not go around watering down the gospel, he does give suggestions for how we should show Christ to others. Young people today are looking for people who live out what they say they believe, which is good. If Christians, as a whole, try to be more Christlike in our everyday lives, we have the opportunity to change these perceptions:
[Y]oung people said they formed their views of Christians based on conversations with others, often with Christians. This is significant because not only does it mean we have a great deal of responsibility in developing many of the perceptions that people hold, but it also suggests the possibility that our words and our lives can change these negative images.
What do you all think? Is there validity to this research? If so, how can those of us who are Christians do a better job of showing Christ to those around us?
1. Carrie (the original) said the following at 3:23 PM on Jan 4:
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"What do you all think? Is there validity to this research? If so, how can those of us who are Christians do a better job of showing Christ to those around us?"
You know, this kind of makes sense if you go with the principle that it takes much longer to clean up a mess than to make it. Also, people are going to remember the bad stuff much longer than the good stuff. It's human nature.
My unbelieving family doesn't understand how much of a sacrifice it is for me to travel over 600 miles to visit them twice a year. They won't take that into account when my political opinions differ from theirs. So, out of love I sacrfice time, money, and sanity to visit, but because I think that abortion shouldn't be a choice I am labeled as "close-minded". Now, I know my family loves me the best they know how, but at the same time I know what sticks out more. They give more weight to being close-minded than they do the loving sacrifice.
Also, when was the last time a Christian got noticed for volunteering at a soup kitchen on a regular basis for years at a time? Yet, Fred Phelps and his crew get national media attention for their hate filled actions.
I'll admit, Christians need to do a better job of being loving. We still fall short and we need to keep striving and pushing to be like Christ. However, let's not be under the dillusion that Christ isn't working in glorious ways. He was born in a manger, wandered in the desert, and for 30 years of his life most people had no idea who He was. Chances are that His truest followers aren't getting much air time either.
2. Tami said the following at 3:49 PM on Jan 4:
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I think these perceptions are largely true. However, I think the sole value of these results is in asking the Holy Spirit to reveal if these things are true of us as individuals, and to help us change... not to simply chew over the fact that as a group Christians have a PR problem with the outside world.
Others' impressions are only helpful insofar as they accurately reveal the true state of our hearts and behavior. If true, we need God's help to change. If not, then we can take them for what they are (others' opinions) and continue to grow as God intends for us.
We can't function as people without getting along with others and caring (to an extent) about how our actions affect them, but constantly worrying about what others think is unfruitful and leaves you in a tailspin.
All this said... if people constantly have a negative reaction to what you say and do, then it's probably time to evaluate your attitude and behavior.
3. Jacob Douvier said the following at 4:47 PM on Jan 4:
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Christians have become "famous for what we oppose, rather than who we are for."
Case and point 1: Most evangelicals are anti-abortion and not pro-life. If we were really pro-life, I have a feeling we, as Protestants, would be rethinking our unilateral acceptance of birth control.
Case and point 2: Most evangelicals are anti-homosexual and not pro-marriage. Since the statistics for divorce among Christians is 50%, it is pretty obvious we're not actually "pro-marriage."
In many respects, I don't care what the world thinks. Paul was clear in 1 Corinthians 1 that they think the Gospel folly and weakness when, in fact, Christ is the wisdom and power of God. That said, things like this should give us cause to reflect.
4. brx said the following at 5:00 PM on Jan 4:
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It's because of the negative stereotype and assumptions that over the last few years, I started carefully using the term "follower of Jesus." Looking back on my more immature Christian years, I see that I often used condescending language and 'thumping' toward unbelieving athiests and agnostics. A careful examination revealed roots of my own insecurity in Christ and related motives other than genuine love for my neighbor. IE, winning converts to my beliefs was an issue of sating my own insecurity rather than demonstrating love and trusting in the Lord.
Even some great apologeticists admit it wasn't the intellectual arguments that won them to Christ, but the sum of experiences and love.
I think we "Christians" often get hung up in dogmatic details and we lose sight of the two greatest commandments. Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. When we do those genuinely and in that order, everything else falls into place with divine order.
Grace, peace, & adventure!
5. brx said the following at 5:19 PM on Jan 4:
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Pretending to be perfect is also a subtle but terrible snare for Christians. Many Christian leaders fail to talk about their weaknesses. Consequently, they get lifted up onto pillars as idolized 'role models' that we want to be like. And, wanting to be like them, we hide our faults and weaknesses. When Christians do that, we hinder the ability of unbelievers to see Christ's strength working in us and we make it more difficult for them to identify and seek healing with us.
The great paradox for followers of Christ is that the Truth sets us free (including the truth about our weaknesses and shortcomings) and that Christ's strength is made perfect in our weaknesses.
One of the most effective tools for encouraging others to Christ is to let them know how Christ has helped and is continuing to help you through your personal struggles and weaknesses.
Grace, peace, & adventure!
6. Rachael said the following at 5:22 PM on Jan 4:
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Through LOVE. By not joining in on certain negative, unfruitful discussions (in my opinion, I don't think we should be all sour and whiny about politics either, even if we disagree w/ stuff), by not getting wrapped up in the juicy discussions related to work politics. You hear the cliche that actions speak louder than words. Both are important, but people do seem to be aware of the behavior of those around them.
Last quarter a coworker at the place I worked had told me something like "It's nice that you don't talk about God being terrible." I don't think I'd ever heard anyone at work explicitly say God was terrible, but somehow I think she could tell something about me by a bit I said or even maybe from what I DIDN'T say. I think I did mention to her something about being involved with a program for kids at a church...so maybe her impression was developped a bit from that, or maybe someone else told her a bit about my beliefs - I don't know. I was just surprised to hear her say that.
People just...talk. And observe. And I think it's important to keep that in mind. We should strive to live out our beliefs in day-to-day conversation and actions. But we're not perfect...good thing Christianity doesn't depend on who we are, huh...still, we should strive to be more Christlike wherever we are - with believers, non-believers, and when it's just us and God.
7. Peter said the following at 5:59 PM on Jan 4:
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I don't mention it because I have a vendetta against FOTF (because I don't), but have we considered how organizations like it have contributed to this perception of Christians? So much of their public-facing efforts amount to exactly what the author says:
"famous for what we oppose, rather than who we are for"
8. Ame said the following at 7:16 PM on Jan 4:
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Unfortunately, it's not simply the way Christians treat non-Christians, it's the way we treat each other, too. I have not read the book, so I do not know if this is covered.
9. Chris B. said the following at 8:55 PM on Jan 4:
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Personally I'd take the findings from this "research" with a grain of salt. Fact is, even though we are Christians we struggle just like everyone else, not that that excuses hypocritical behavior, but the same people making those accusations are also hypocrites (we all are). If you're looking for perfection in people and holding them to an expectation to deliver perfection and nothing else, you're going to be disappointed. Something I learned when I use to think that everyone I went to Church with was going to be my friend ans should in fact be even closer than a friend. Well that simply wasn't true, for a time I felt that they were even worse than people in the secular world, many of which were not Christian. For a time I gawked at this realization then grew to understand that I was holding my fellow Christian brothers and sisters s to an unreasonable standard to deliver and be the perfect, loving friends they never were. To a great extent I even let this expectation effect my relationship with God (big mistake), but I soon redirected my focus on God and less on people. Then what do you know, I was making friends with others in my Church left and right, many of which are still my friends after several years today.
There are many Christians doing the right thing, many of which inspire people everyday. We lead by the example of Christ to inspire, but the Holy Spirit ignites the desire in ones heart to give their lives over to Christ. In my experience, not enough believers are plugged in at Church to be inspired by other believers to reach out and make a difference. I believe fellowship is vital and key in our ability to represent Christ when we're out in the world where there are opportunities to reach out to those that don't know Christ and truly make a difference. A heart for people isn't innate to us, it's something that needs to be cultivated.
As for not being for homosexuality; I'll never compromise my beliefs to except something I don't and don't want to. We live in a world that wants to normalize pretty much everything, whether there's logic to it or not. I always tell my non-believing friends this when it comes to this subject, "I don't disapprove of the people, I disapprove of the lifestyle".
In the present world as we know it today, it's not cool to have values, it's not cool to stand for something. Stand for nothing and you fall for everything. I stand.
10. Chris said the following at 10:04 PM on Jan 4:
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Is there validity to this? Well, let's just take a piece from the referenced article:
Your immediate reaction—like mine—is that this characterization is grossly unfair. Why don’t these folks recognize all the good things we do, like helping prisoners and Africans with AIDS?
Quick, in the last 5 elections (10 years), how many states had ballot measures or major election issues dealing with helping AIDS victims in Africa, helping prisoners, feeding the poor, making sure people could get the medical care they needed, and any other "good stuff"? How many of these drove voters to the polls as the primary motivation?
Now how many dealt with gay marriage? Abortion? "Family values"?
Any wonder why people see things the way they do?
The answer is that, fairly or not, hostile press characterizations of us as judgmental, homophobic bigots have stuck. But this is only half the answer.
I don't think it was the press. These ballot and election issues didn't just pop up by themselves. They were put there, and not by the press. The press just reported it.
11. Cathy said the following at 10:35 PM on Jan 4:
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I definitely believe there is validity to this research. I see it myself inside the church. There is not enough genuineness being shown. There is a lot of superficiality. My friends and I desire to see more intimate relationships formed within the body of Christ. And we desire to show that intimacy and living in truth to unbelievers. I believe that we minister out of our abundance of our relationship with Christ. Part of our relationship with Christ is interacting as part of the body of Christ. If there is animosity between parts and some parts thinking they are perfect while rotting away on the inside, then that is not attractive to unbelievers. People want to know that Christians are people too. I think it was Peter and someone else in Acts...men could tell that they had been with Jesus. The world should be able to tell we have "been with Jesus" as it were.
12. Denisha said the following at 1:06 AM on Jan 5:
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Wow, this post is actually very depressing. The thought that most people even young people think we are
gay-haters and bigots. I use to have a boyfriend who thought I was the same way(he was atheist) I would tell him all my experinces with God and tell him the reasons why I'm Pro-marriage between a man and woman, and pro-life. The response I would get were usually very negative." Your childless for believing in God." "You are just a crazy bigot."
Even though the polls may say this people will always view Chrisitans negativly because we go against everything that most people in society support. The only type of Christian liked in our society is a liberal Christian-one who compromises.
13. Adam D said the following at 11:44 AM on Jan 5:
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I dunno, I think that this is very true. I mean, I have been reading this blog for awhile now and many people are each others throats over a variety of issues. Again and again I see ego-inflated slugfests between the same people. I often wonder how a nonbeliever or agnostic would view the comments on this blog. I also wonder how many people covertly post as Christians, but are not Christians. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I just being irrational and should shut up now?
14. Louise said the following at 12:07 PM on Jan 5:
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Interesting post.
I twice brought up the issue of name-calling on this blog.
None of the moderators on here ever responded.
Other commentors did respond though:
the first time someone stated that it was okay to call people names on a "Christian" blog since Jesus had called people names.
Whatever.
The second time I brought up the name-calling issue someone specifically stated that my comments were worse than those of the name-callers and someone specifically told me "you make me want to throw my computer out the window."
IMO people in glass houses shouldn't throw their computer out the window!
And there was a discussion about the term "weaker vessel".
I stated that in my opinion, "weaker" means inferior.
Someone stated that my opinion/ interpretation of the term "weaker" was so ridiculous for 2007 that they couldn't stop laughing.
And then a nineteen year old actually made a comment about the workings of my mind (I am in my early 40s) since I had that interpretation of the word
"weaker."
I have also been told that I worship "Mother Earth"...someone from Canada was called a "hoser"...and during a political argument someone stated to someone "You can take your minimum age and you can put it somewhere."
I remember a song I heard when I was a child "And they will know we are Christians by our love, by our love..."
Sure.
15. nikki said the following at 1:52 PM on Jan 5:
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Thanks for publishing this article; it's about time this was addressed. I've seen the negative view of Christianity everywhere...and I don't think people are inaccurate or unreasonable in their views of us. We've really destroyed much of our witness ourselves. I believe some of this destruction comes from organizations that immediately politicize everything related to morality and family. Aside from being impersonal and irrelevant to much of the U.S. population, this tact sends the message that Christians are primarily out to win votes and Senate seats and judgeships.
I also think we need to remember that it's not wrong to adapt certain aspects of our message and our behavior to show Christ to different "worlds." A lot of people I know get so hung up on "be not of this world" that anything commonly associated with the world (movies, cars, fashionable clothes) is regarded as sinful. It is unbiblical (ignoring the idea of being all things to all people), and it is another way for Christians to show themselves to be irrational and ignorant. Christians are far too sweeping in the ways we attempt to set ourselves apart. We look to outward things like unfashionable clothing, lack of 'unusual' piercings, and rejection of alcoholic beverages to demonstrate our love for Christ. While the outward certainly shows the heart and is not irrelevant, the transformation must be first from within: "they will know we are Christians by our love." If we must resort to the aforementioned "outward" displays of our faith, we have failed already. The idea that our love should set us apart FIRST has been overlooked.
It's no wonder most people have a bad image of Christianity...but we've done it to ourselves. I only hope people can realize that the presence of ignorant hypocrites in the church does not invalidate the message preached from the church.
16. Chris B. said the following at 3:59 PM on Jan 5:
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It kind of seems like everyone is taking this article to heart when they shouldn't. I can't tell you how many times I've had "friends" that know my values and morals but still have tried to pressure me into things like drinking and sleeping around with random girls regardless of how many times I've said, "that's not me", and yet they persisted regardless. No respect for me as a person or my friendship. Point it is, frankly, it’s not cool to be a Christian in the day and age we live in. If you don’t want to stand for what you believe in and acknowledge those things when confronted by “worldly” opposition…. Well I really don’t know what to say. Being a follower of Christ means you are called to walk in righteousness which means adhering to a standard that frankly is too tough for many to take on. So it’s no surprise that many view Christians as “uptight” and somewhere in their minds they’re conditioned to believe that we’re overwhelmingly judgmental because of the fact we represent a high standard of morality that we believe needs to be represented in all aspects of our living, and sometimes that means politics. Now of course there’s the issue of legalism and so fourth and surely not everyone that calls themselves a “Christian”, is. I don’t think it should be our objective to focus on public perception but focus on how we as individuals represent the cross and what it stands for, and maybe somewhere along the way we can inspire and make a positive impact. But looking at the “bad news” and internalizing it isn’t going to do anything for anyone and surely won’t help us anymore than being “hypocrites” in our witness. Hopefully it inspires you to draw closer to the Lord in your personal relationship with him and take notice of how you conduct yourself amongst others both believing and non-believing. Christ told us that as they hated him they would hate us too; Luk 21:17 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
17. A.M.C. said the following at 5:13 PM on Jan 5:
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WARNING: Below is merely the personal opinion of a current college student. It is not meant to be representative of Christians.
Perhaps this is why, in political terms, I personally take a slightly liberal stance on the economic scale and a slightly conservative stance on the social scale. The rationale behind it is that my experience with urban service projects in the last two years has convinced me that "social justice" and certain "moral principles" should go hand-in-hand for a Christian.
==> Of course, the problem with taking such a stance is that I would be in the minority by U.S. standards, both in political terms (since neither political party fits my views well) and in the church (too often, to care about social justice is to be branded a "liberal" in a bad way). As things now stand, I don't think I can do much in the former-- barring a major reform, e.g. banning gerrymandering and switching to another voting system such as Range Voting, third-party and independent candidates have little chance. But I did find some respite in the latter, because I'm blessed to be a part of an urban PCA church that actually managed to actively contribute to its community while staying theologically sound (in my opinion).
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Anyway, I think my life so far has given me a good idea of "how can Christians can do a better job of showing Christ to those around us". Here's my story:
Growing up in a Christian family, I would consider myself to be a follower of Jesus since childhood, although it wasn't until the summer right before college (i.e. mid-2005) that I decided to "take my faith to the next level" and vow to become an active member of a Christian community as soon as I start college. Before that, I had only been practicing Christianity passively, i.e. treating it as a personal belief system but not much else.
Since much of my childhood was spent in a non-Christian country, plus that I'm somewhat reserved, I naturally took the strategy of "witnessing through my life" rather than actively talking about my faith (which I perceive to be what annoys many non-Christians). This strategy has proven to be effective back in high school, as I had been fairly popular despite that I'm an introvert and a Christian... in a fairly liberal area.
But as I entered college and started taking my Christian faith more seriously, I couldn't help it but to question myself: Am I "taking the easy way out" by never sharing my faith with or building deeper relationships with non-Christians? It was then when I realized that "social justice" issues can be a unifying factor. I found out that backing up my reason to serve the underprivileged with my belief system, if done in a tactful way, is less likely to offend non-Christians when compared to the "share my faith at the first possible moment" approach.
In addition, I found out that being "vulnerable and real" (something that is admittedly hard for a man), and just showing that I, as a Christian, am simply a "redeemed sinner," can sometimes be effective witnessing. "The reason why I remain a Christian despite the problems in the church and with individual Christians is because I believe that Jesus set a perfect example for us," I might say. And I find "living out my faith" to be far more convincing than trying to defend my faith on the terms of non-Christians (e.g. "no theology").
18. Jacob Douvier said the following at 6:16 PM on Jan 5:
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It is very comforting that the Gospel does not depend on us, but on God. It's pretty clear that we're all messed up and the biggest hypocrites that the world has ever known. The beauty is that while we were yet in sin, Christ died for us anyway.
19. Chris B. said the following at 10:51 PM on Jan 5:
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This is something I thought about that I forgot to mention beforehand that represents this "problem" in reality in that it's not always your fault; At one of my two jobs the environment is liberal in extreme and at this particular place i have a gay co-worker. Before he knew I was a Christian he was very friendly and talkative. Once he found out that I'm Christian and that I'm pretty active in the Church his tone completely changed. Did I say anything to him about his lifestyle?? Absolutely not as it's none of my business and I don't care to ask, I treat him just like I do everyone else. So just because there's bad reputation out there, it doesn't make every Christian responsible for the hypocritical and critical behavior displayed by other Christians. It's being guilty by association. Deserved or not, that's the way it is.
20. JB said the following at 10:21 PM on Jan 6:
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I think the study is correct and that much of the blame for the negative perception of Christianity can be laid at the feet of Christian conservative political groups. The rhetoric of Christian conservative politics is always framed within a battle metaphor. The traditional family is being "attacked," there is a "war on Christmas," the Ten Commandments are "under assault." Dr. Dobson even wrote a book entitled "Marriage Under Fire." The problem with the battle metaphor is that to have a battle you need an enemy. An enemy isn't someone you speak to in love, it's someone you hurt or kill. If you know someone who is one of the designated enemies of the Christian right, you don't find it surprising that Christianity has gotten a bad reputation.
I think these conservative groups need to be aware of what they're doing to the perception of Christianity. Every inflammatory mailing that might get a few people to the polls to vote for a ban on same sex marriage will also drive a few people further from Christ. Electoral victories are frequently won at the cost of souls. It's time to seriously consider which is more important.
21. gwenhwyfar said the following at 1:45 AM on Jan 7:
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I think that the observation that we tend to communicate what we are against rather than what we are for is spot on. It is not enough to say that something is wrong or bad, we must be clear as to why, to let people know that it is not out of annoyance or hate or fear, as is the common perception, but out of concern for our fellow human beings. That these things that we call wrong are called that because they are not conducive to human good and human flourishing and can have very negative consequences, perhaps even as severe as spiritual and physical death. People may disagree with this of course, but if we communicate these things properly they will then better understand why we are so concerned with these things. And I think it is important to look into our hearts to make sure we are truly doing and saying these things in a spirit of love, and being understanding of the human condition, especially human weakness. This has definitely been a challenge for me, and something I have to think about and remind myself of every day.
I think the most important thing, though-and this is what really led me back to Christianity-is to be a source of light in a dark world, to communicate what is ultimately an incredibly joyful and hopeful message, to love one another and let others see this love ("By this all men will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another-John 13:35) and to be a source of rest and refreshment for people weary of cynicism and selfishness and darkness and indifference-and I think a lot of people are.
I agree that the use of metaphors relating to wars is wrong and sends the wrong message when it relates to people, but many of ideas that have become prevalent have had negative consequences for society and so the stakes are high. We can't expect non-Christians to share our sometimes very high standards, and we can't and shouldn't force it, but we do have a responsibility as citizens to institute changes when they have a positive impact on society, and prevent them when they have a negative impact, and legislation (or lack thereof) that is conducive to the common good and to human flourishing will not be antithetical to our beliefs in any way, since they are conducive to the same things in the same way (and I do think that it is legitimate for those in political office to recognize and acknowledge transcendent values-there really is no neutrality). In that sense, I don't see anything wrong with our religious beliefs motivating political action and shaping ideas per se, but I agree that our tone has probably been too harsh at times, and I can tell that this has contributed to the negative perceptions and hope that this changes.
22. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) said the following at 8:08 AM on Jan 7:
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Well, the non-Christians I've talked to, especially at university, think very negatively upon Christians and Christian organizations that try to influence politics by trying to stop or ban same-sex marriage and abortion, or who try to have Intelligent Design taught in schools or who try to have a certain party elected by playing to people's beliefs. There is a strong feeling that Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves, and while I do not agree with this, I think that there is the right way to express one's beliefs, and there is also the wrong way... er, many wrong ways.
JB makes an excellent point of how conservative christians always make it seem that they and their beliefs are being persecuted and are "under attack." I personally don't think that pro-gay-marriagers want to "ruin the family" nor do pro-choicers want to "kill babies," but the people in these groups are always regarded as enemies and opposition to conservative christians, even when many of them are believers.
I think the problem is that Christians focus too much on God's condemnation and not enough on His grace. One of my favourite passages in the Bible is John 3:17, which is seldom mentioned: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." So while we're eager to judge gays, those who've had abortions, etc, we forget about the real Judge who died so He could become the Defense Council. On conservative christian sites, the only time I've ever seen the word "grace" when it comes to homosexuality is when it involves turning the homosexual straight.
Finally, Christians need to rethink our priorities. Did Jesus ever tell us to spend millions of dollars trying to stop homosexuals from marrying? Or trying to influence politicians so that sexual orientation is NOT listed as basis for a hate crime on God's children(while religion is)? Or did He tell us to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, support the widow and love our neighbours?
Hmmm....
23. Louise said the following at 8:38 AM on Jan 7:
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This may be off topic, but last night at 8:45 PM I had some religious people at my front door trying to get in to talk to me.
They did not use the doorbell, instead they were knocking on the door and I almost had a heart attack
when I heard my storm door being opened.
I am a single female homeowner.
When I looked through my front window blinds and saw their "Church of Latter Day Saints" name badges I told them to leave and they said "Ma'am, if you'll talk to us we know our church can bring a lot of joy into our lives."
I don't know how much joy any church can bring into my life, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let two strange men in my house after dark!
I told them to get off my property, then I called the police.
Why on earth would be people be doing this 8:45 PM on a Sunday?
I was scared to death!
24. Christina said the following at 12:00 PM on Jan 7:
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After reading this, so many things came to mind...
What stuck out the most was the comment that Christians try to appear as being perfect.
I was telling a friend about this woman I met at church the other week, and how she was so smiley and nice. She told me that she was so glad I made it to their church during the holiday season because "everyone is just so happy and cheerful and smiley". For a split second her smile faltered, but then picked up right where it left off. Think Happy Smilers from Adventures in Odyssey.
I felt kinda sad for her...its almost as if it HAD to be for Christ to be real - Christians MUST be perfect and Church must be safe, secure, joyful, and happy, because if it isn't, it means we're just like everyone else. And if that's true, what about Christ? Its as if the fact that we live in a horrible world is too much for our claim that Christ is alive, so some of us ignore the fact that we aren't perfect and simply pretend.
Thing is, we ARE just like everyone else...with one exception - we've accepted Christ's sacrifice and have chosen to give our lives to him. If it wasn't for the grace and mercy we are given through our relationship with Christ, then we are nothing more than the people out there. And they know that, while it seems to me Christians in general remain in denial.
As Casting Crowns puts it - Christians in general come off as "happy plastic people" in their "stained-glass masquerade". Our generation and the ones following are increasingly in demand of being genuine - and part of that is accepting that without Christ's blood covering us, we are just as dirty and filthy as the prostitute selling herself on the corner, as the druggie in his smoke filled bedroom, as the homosexuals, and everyone else christians tend to condemn.
When that is TRULY accepted on an internal level, then compassion, forgiveness, and understanding are much easier to display - and those are what Jesus showed to these people.
Honestly, not much has changed since Christ's time and ours in regards to this =p
25. Kevin said the following at 1:47 PM on Jan 7:
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Kinnaman discovered that the view of Christians is, in general, quite negative. Christians are seen as hypocritical, too focused on getting converts, anti-homosexual, sheltered, too political and judgmental.
Point being?
26. Rachael said the following at 4:54 PM on Jan 7:
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Someone mentioned the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Just to clarify to anyone who might not be aware, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is actually the church of the Mormon cult. While it's possible they may consider themselves to be Christians, their understanding of salvation is quite different from the Biblical concept of salvation. They have other beliefs that run quite contrary to Scripture as well. Just wanted to point this out. Here is a Christian website with several links to articles that expose various teachings of Mormonism:
http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.3182643/k.7447/Tpoical_Index__Mormonism.htm
27. Rachael said the following at 5:13 PM on Jan 7:
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PS - Hi Christina,
I bet most people would prefer qualities of compassion, forgiveness, and understanding to constant plastic smiles, but sometimes, especially if you just see someone for 2 minutes, it's easier and a culturally accepted form of politeness just to smile and exchange shallow greetings and be on our merry way. People just don't always have the chance to express understanding and forgiveness, especially if they don't know what to understand and what to forgive. I wonder if part of the problem and reason for shallow, surface relationships is that people (we) don't often open up about our struggles and confess our sins. Maybe some people want to but just don't know when the appropriate time is to do it or who they can feel safe opening up to. Some people I think wouldn't know how to respond, listen, care. But I think several would.
I don't think the more genuine qualities necessarily have to be mutually exclusive with cultural niceties/plastic smiles. (I actually think it would sometimes be nice to be blessed with the talent of fake smiling. I suppose with lots of fake smiles it would just end up turning into natural smiling; I don't know :))
I guess on the defense of people who seem really really bubbly all the time (if they exist), or if they seem really really bubbly in those 2 minutes you might talk to them at church, they might be nervous/awkward. They might not know what to say. Greeting times at churches aren't exactly the common time for baring souls. Isn't it interesting, though, to see and interact with personalities of such a wide spectrum? Everyone is unique and brings their own spice to this life; fake smiles or not. Just might be a bit harder to get on a deeper level with people when there's only shallow smile exchanges, but they have beauty to share as well. And I wonder if nervousness might sometimes be one reason for it. I don't know. I just am babbling on again...
28. farmer Tom said the following at 8:16 PM on Jan 7:
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"and they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love"
A great song, I sing it myself, but a song is not the basis for my theology.
Love is a Biblical characteristic of a believer, but if love is placed as a priority over other characteristics which are commanded to be evidenced in a believers life, we will have a false understanding of what the "Christian"life is all about.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Why does the world hate "Christians" because we have Jesus Christ who is truth and we have the Word, which is also truth, "thy word is truth".
I'm afraid that too many people think that we must demonstrate "love" to the exclusion of the truth. That is a distortion of who God is and a distortion of His character.
God's love is only one of His many attributes. But it is not the greatest of His attributes. God also hates, why don't we focus on that one of His attributes? Because all of God's character/attributes are to be seen through the prism of God's Holiness.
Be ye Holy, as I am Holy.
God's love is Holy, His hate is Holy, His anger is Holy. If you believe that the greatest of God's attributes is His love, you do not know His Holiness.
So this survey is interesting, and I'm sure that I and many other believers fail to show the Love of Jesus Christ the way we should, but the world will hate us because we have the truth, and loving sin or sinfulness is not going to help them find the true Love of Jesus Christ.
If we love a man/woman enough to show them Jesus Christ we must also tell them the truth. And that truth is man is sinful, man is not Holy and the relationship between a Holy God and sinful man required a sacrifice. And that truth is painful, it required the shedding of blood.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrated his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If you don't know that you're a sinner, you can not know the depths of Christ's love for us. and thats the truth
29. Michael said the following at 9:34 PM on Jan 7:
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I believe that books like that are useful for preventing Christians from having unrealistic expectations about how atheists perceive them. This can avoid extremely awkward interactions and further damage.
However, as has been pointed out, the world will hate us.
It seems to be an overly harsh judgement of those who frame things with battle metaphors to blame them for all hostility toward believers.
Indeed it is to an extent putting the cart before the horse. If there is something I have noticed it is that homosexual activists, atheist fundamentalists and others who are being responded to with that rhetoric are in full battle mode. Rather than evoking hostility the Dobsons of the world are playing Churchill who spoke up at a time when noone considered Hitler a threat. The fact that the Hitler figures capitalise on it to portray the Dobsons as aggressors doesn't mean that they are.
I've read Dobson's "Marriage Under Fire" and he makes the strong point that Christians need to respond in love. The title identifies the problem not the response.
It is all very well to say that an enemy is someone you hurt or kill but please understand that Christians like Dobson follow someone called Jesus who told us to love our enemies. Therefore a Dobson will be completely obtuse to that potential assumption about his words.
The depth of love that Christ called for is glimpsed at in The Passion of The Christ when Jesus after serious torture said "Forgive them Father they know not what they do".
30. Elizabeth said the following at 9:49 AM on Jan 8:
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I really liked what "Canadian Boy" had to say.
I personally grew up in a conservative evangelical homeschooling family where Dobson's disciplinary tactics were followed to the letter and I was trying to "witness" to kids at the age of 6. The view that Christians are "hypocritical, too focused on getting converts, anti-homosexual, sheltered, too political and judgmental" would have been totally been seen in my family.
Needless to say, I have a pretty bad opinion of Evangelical Christians myself today. I hesitate to call myself a Christian now, and that's definitely a shame.
31. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) said the following at 11:24 AM on Jan 8:
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Michael, you speak responding in love (an argument I can't stand, because it is so abstract and vague that it can mean pretty much anything), and yet your comment compared "homosexual activists, atheist fundamentalists and others" to Hitler (and Dobson to Churchill).
Come on man....
32. Brian K said the following at 2:13 PM on Jan 8:
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Dr. Piper addressed the negative Christian through a tribute to his father today. Very interesting.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2008/2561_A_Birthday_Gift_to_My_Father_on_His_89th_Birthday/
This subject is like so many others. Biblically, we are called to reproof, not judge. To be Holy and not conformed to the patterns of this world, but take the message to the world (and not just the parts that we like). I heard a particular biblical principal once described as a piano wire. It should be in constant tension. We are called to be in culture, not of it. We are called to present the promise we have, but do so with gentleness and respect. We are called to follow God’s commands yet not be pharisaical. Do not be puffed up yet be proud through (because of) Christ. We sin (in our speech or actions) when we pull too hard on one side of the wire or the other. We don’t cease calling sin a sin because people don’t like it and we don’t exude an air of superiority because we like it.
33. Chris B. said the following at 6:54 PM on Jan 8:
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I agree that to some degree the Christian faith has been over politicized by many Christians themselves, both inside and outside of government regarding political issues. I also agree with showing the love of Christ to others instead of throwing “hell fire and brimstone”. However, I don't agree with compromising what you believe just to make friendly with people that may not agree with your views just for the sake of keeping the peace and having people like you. As I mentioned earlier (and it's a common-sense fact of life, especially as a Christian), not everyone is going to like you or what you stand for. Where does the compromising stop once you begin to conform to a worldly view??? The Bible makes very clear what’s wrong and what’s right. I don’t believe that because we’re called to have compassion for those in the world means that we’re to accept and conform to their ways because we love them and want them to see the light of Christ. We know better through the Scripture and the grace of God, and if we back-bend on that we’re defeating our purpose in being the Disciples of Christ as he has called us to be. Christ said explicitly, “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” (Mat 12:30)
While there are those that are of the Christian faith that have planted bad seeds by having distorted a non-Christians view of the Christian faith through a bad experience in which they’re the guilty party, God still holds each and every one of us accountable on both sides of the equation. So no one is justified just because they had a bad experience with a Christian, and I think it’s even worse for the believer because there went an opportunity that could have been used for the glory of God that instead glorified selfish human-nature through pride.
34. Chris B. said the following at 7:36 PM on Jan 8:
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Elizabeth:
"I hesitate to call myself a Christian now, and that's definitely a shame."
Does your faith rely on your family or Christ???
35. Michael said the following at 8:22 PM on Jan 8:
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Andrew,
"Michael, you speak responding in love ... yet your comment compared "homosexual activists, atheist fundamentalists and others" to Hitler (and Dobson to Churchill).
Come on man...."
Atheist fundamentalists and homosexual activists can be as aggressive and determined as Hitler except they use the pen which some say is mightier than the sword.
Churchill warned of the impending threat long before it eventuated. If people had listened to him at that stage many lives would have been saved.
Likewise Dobson has an almost prophetic way of identifying problems and predicting the consequences.
You watch The Passion of the Christ and you'll see how we are called to love even Hitler. Hate the sin not the sinner.
Brian K,
That is excellent. It is always hard to get that balance but either extreme is bad.
It is easier to judge or reproof only for judging instead of for general sin.
It is easier to function as if we are Holy without taking the message to the world or to alternatively to conform ourselves to the world.
It is easier to either reject God's commands outright and cease calling a sin a sin or to rigidly get others to avoid the sins while sinning ourselves.
I guess that is why they call it the narrow road.
36. Rachael said the following at 12:33 AM on Jan 9:
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To go back to the importance of "love"... I would like to respond to the following 2 comments I saw posted on here:
comment 1:
"Love is a Biblical characteristic of a believer, but if love is placed as a priority over other characteristics which are commanded to be evidenced in a believers life, we will have a false understanding of what the "Christian"life is all about."
Response --> I believe love is often the foundation of the other characteristics, and they often stem out of love. Yes, it's possible for us to have those other characteristics without love -- God's spirit is our deposit even though we are grossly imperfect -- but love is truly the greatest. Check out Matthew 22:36-39, 1 John 4:7-9, 1 Corinthians 13:13. Ideally, because of our love of God, we'd spend time thinking upon Him & His Words. Ideally, God's work through the renewal of our minds and indwelling in us would cause us to do good deeds. But those are often tied to a sense of love - even if not always from OUR love, perhaps through God's love flowing into and through our lives.
& comment 2 (which someone directed to another commenter):
"you speak responding in love (an argument I can't stand, because it is so abstract and vague that it can mean pretty much anything),"
--> I agree that love can very much be a vague thing. And there are so many different types of love in different relationships. And it is probably impossible for anyone to have love for everyone at all times according to the 1 Corinthians description of love.
I do think that it is easy to detect a lack of love - unfortunately, our eyes are probably more often open to seeing it in others than in our own behavior.
Take arrogance, for example. 1 Cor. 13:4 says love "is not arrogant". While it's so incredibly easy to spot in others, it may be more difficult to spot or think about being in ourselves.
1 Corinthians also talks about love being patient. Kind. Does not envy or boast. Not rude. Does not insist on its own way. Is not irritable or resentful. Does not rejoice at wrongdoing. Rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
The little things we do reflects love or a lack of it. The following evidences of a lack of love can be easy to detect in others or ourselves: being easily annoyed, harboring grudges, reacting to something someone says by dismissing them/putting them down, saying short little flippant, arrogant comments that put people down, feeling jealous (which can flow into the actions), being impatient with people or circumstances...
When we act in any of these ways, we are not acting out of love or showing God's love to those around us...
It's so easy to detect a lack of love, even in subtle or brief comments and behaviors, isn't it?
But isn't it wonderful that we are not saved by our own merit but by God's grace, and that He can empower us for every good work (see 2 Cor. 9:8) and that He can provide a way to stand up under temptation (1 Cor. 10:13).
Is love easier said than practiced? Unfortunately, often, yes.
But love reveals itself in many, many ways, through myriads of characteristics/behaviors.
37. Elizabeth said the following at 1:28 PM on Jan 9:
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To Chris B.:
Let's just say my faith definitely is not in the same "Christ" my family believes in. Or, as a result of my environment I was a misdirected toddler who grew up into a misdirected teenager and then a misdirected 20 something. Thankfully the real Christ lets us find him, in spite of abusive families and churches.
It's true that no one is justified just because they had a bad experience with a Christian. But what a shame that that person is blocked from seeing the real Jesus because of the actions of the misguided Christian. As Jesus said about children, It would be better for a person to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
I think our response to books like this should be repentance instead of defensiveness. Obviously people have the wrong idea about Christ, and they must have gotten it somehow.
38. Chris B. said the following at 11:23 PM on Jan 9:
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Elizabeth:
"I think our response to books like this should be repentance instead of defensiveness. Obviously people have the wrong idea about Christ, and they must have gotten it somehow."
Well, I apologize if you think my tone has been defensive. I just don't believe that "Christians" are the bad people they are often made out to be, though some of the blame and accusations are well founded. It certainly isn't easy to communicate thoughts exactly the way you want to express them through written words, especially over the internet.
"As Jesus said about children, It would be better for a person to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin." > You're exactly right, that one exchange between the fallible Christian and the non-believer may be the only time that non-believer ever exchanges with a Christian in a faith based conversation, and that can leave a lasting negative impression that will jade the effected individuals perception of the Christian faith forever. I've met some of these people and they tend to be very adamant on why they aren't a Christian and what's wrong with Christians based off of one bad experience. Obviously it's more than just a bad experience, it's deep-rooted spiritual conflict. Regardless, it pains me to see this but at the same time we're told that this will happen. Good news is that we have a God that can work with even the most impossible of people out of the ugliest situations. For these people the most we can do is pray and do our part to make sure we're witness to our faith in love, sincerity and truth.
39. Adam said the following at 1:51 PM on Jan 10:
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I need to read the book. I have received great reviews on it. But I can relate to the negative side.
With my dad as a preacher, I have so far been in two churches, the last one the worst, where I was told by my family, who I trust, that their good name and my dad's were smeared by people of the church telling lies about us behind our backs and becoming power hungry in the church so badly that they kept it from growing. I was even told by my mom, who I trust, that one member went right up to another member's face and bluntly said they didn't like them in a harsh manner.
It didn't take no time at all, probably 1-2 weeks, for our numbers to drop from over 100 due to a praise band my friends started and things kicking off in the church with great messages and great praise, to less than 60 because the people who had been there the longest didn't like it and started complaining and could pull the strings in their small community to make things worst. It became vicious at times.
40. Morgan Guyton said the following at 8:26 AM on Nov 2:
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The problem with American Christianity is that we're stuck in an epidemic of works-righteousness. We have replaced the dual Great Commandments "Love God and love your neighbor" with the trinity of American fundamentalism: "Don't have premarital sex, don't do drugs, and don't cuss." These things are certainly important but they are only relevant insofar as they remove obstacles to our ability to love our neighbors and God. They become dangerous idolatry when they serve as the way that Christians set themselves apart from other people when they convert.
The root of this epidemic is the way that thanks to Charles Finney and the American revivalism of the 1800's, we have come to think of salvation as always occurring as an instantaneous Damascus Road event. There was only one Paul; his conversion experience was the dramatic EXCEPTION to the norm. There were 11 disciples who were saved gradually over time as part of the process of walking with Jesus for three years. But when your model for evangelism is big tent revivals rather than personal relationships with neighbors, then you create the cultural expectation that getting saved is always a dramatic, public spectacle that only happens once. For me, I've had about four conversions so far and I'm hoping the last one is going to stick.
The problem with expecting to be "saved" in a moment is that we respond to our anxiety about whether or not we "have faith" by clinging to the idolatry of Puritanism in order to validate our conversion before God even has time to bring about the deeper assurance of salvation through the work of His Holy Spirit. Even when we parrot out all the right phrases like "I'm the greatest of sinners but God had mercy on me," our act of saying the right things itself can be works righteousness if we've been given the wrong expectations about how salvation works.
When we are slaves to works righteousness, we judge other people out of a need to prove our fidelity to God since we really don't have faith in His justification through Christ. In other words, we become Pharisees, exactly what Jesus came to Earth to stop us from being and exactly what Satan wants us to be in order to blaspheme the name of Jesus.
I'm a youth pastor who works with youth who are involved in gangs, often use foul language in my presence, smoke marijuana, and probably have sex though they don't admit that one openly. I respond to what they do with the truth in love, and I speak more and more boldly as I gain rapport and trust with the kid.
Two summers ago, I encountered a scripture that has defined how I respond to my youth. When Jesus is judged by the Pharisees for hanging out with sinners and tax collectors, he tells them, "Go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy not sacrifice.'" It's a quote from Hosea 6:6.
After meditating on this verse for the past two years, I believe that sacrifice means proving our loyalty to God by what we're willing to give up, while mercy means being convicted deeply enough by God's mercy on us that we cannot possibly judge another human being no matter how evil.
Now, this doesn't mean we don't exhort our brothers and sisters to leave behind harmful behaviors, but exhortation is very different than judgment. People who judge can give tongue-lashings to people they don't know at all often behind their back; there is no profit in this kind of judgment for the Kingdom.
Exhortation on the other hand concerns the well-being of the person being criticized. If you really want someone to change, you have to build trust with them possibly by spending time with them in a way that might seem like it "condones" sinful behavior like Jesus did in drinking with the tax collectors. It's a fine line because you don't want to compromise your witness with unholy behavior but you'll never really reach the lost if you're scandalized by how they really talk and what they really do with their friends.
Once you have built that rapport, you follow Jesus' model of pulling your brother or sister aside to exhort him/her in private first, then taking witnesses if necessary, and only airing it in public if their behavior is harmful enough to merit it. It's completely different than judgment from the pulpit against people who aren't even in the audience.
In any case, if American Christians can leave their works righteousness behind and live in mercy rather than sacrifice, we will be more effective witnesses for the Kingdom and we will actually experience the salvation that we thought we had already attained.