At What Price, Career?
by Candice Watters on 01/06/2008 at 9:28 AM
It can be frustrating to be a single woman hoping for marriage with no prospects in sight. In many cities and towns, it really does seem like all the good men are married. Statistics notwithstanding, it can be hard to believe that there are in fact, "Plenty of Men to Go Around."
But the evidence continues to suggest that it's not just a problem with passive men who are more interested in their Xbox than in finding a wife. (Yes, that is a problem that warrants attention, but it's not the only problem.)
In a story on cnn.com, Jocelyn Voo reports that "Young Women Are Choosing Career over Love." She writes,
When it comes to work versus romance, the stereotype has been that men put a premium on career goals while women focus more on family and friends. Not so, according to a study published recently in the scientific journal "Gender Issues."
Men were more willing than women to sacrifice achievement for a romantic relationship, according to the study conducted by Catherine Mosher of Duke University Medical Center and Sharon Danoff-Burg at the University of Albany.
Researchers asked 237 undergraduates to rate the importance of goals such as financial success, career, education and contribution to society, as well as goals such as romantic relationships, marriage, children and friendship.
And the surprising result,
While 51 percent of the women prioritized romantic relationships over achievement goals, more than 61 percent of men did the same.
Why the shift? The article suggests career-oriented women perceive their 20s as prime time to start career-building and are willing to delay marriage and children in order to get a professional leg up. Another culprit is the growing assumption among men that their future wives will work and bring in a second income, thereby lessening the pressure they feel to be sole provider.
Whatever the reasons, it's clear that how women relate to their jobs has has a profound impact on how families form. Or perhaps, don't.
1. Thea said the following at 12:19 PM on Jan 6:
A lot of news articles are discouraging about our American society's trends in marriages and families. Singles are up against some frustrating statistics.
At the same time, these statistics are indicative of worldly pursuits and values. But they are not indicative of how God works in our lives. The hope we have in Him is that He is beyond the stats, and that He has a purpose for us whether we marry or not. We have Him and He has us.
If a young man is glued to his computer so much that he doesn't notice life passing him by, it's sad that it is a waste. Yet, a young or older single woman who is aware that she has a higher calling than a career or even a family would do best to see if God brings to her a man who is also living for more than a paycheck, promotion or raising kids.
A couple like this is rare in the world, and sadly, even in churches.
However, thanks for posting these articles so that we know how to focus on God and see His greatness, and how to respond to how our society is changing.
2. DannieA said the following at 12:34 PM on Jan 6:
I can see where this is true....let me ask another question...in the light of even Christian marriages falling victim to the 50% divorce rate...do you think women are also thinking about being able to support themselves if ever a time came where there was no man in the picture? Just a thought...
3. Zach Thompson said the following at 12:39 PM on Jan 6:
I also believe more young women are going to college then young men. I think this delays marriage too- as the girls are being told the college is necessary by their fathers. Some of my guy friends are learning trades/computers while most more of my female friends are going to college only to get out with secretarial type jobs!
4. Justice said the following at 12:52 PM on Jan 6:
Candace,
Perhaps you should look at the reasons that guys may want to play video games instead of bashing it. My fiance actually enjoys playing and thinks there is a place for it. Perhaps you fail to realize that many guys today do not have hobbies that involve working on vehicles or a house because we were brought up differently than the 40 year-olds in our society.
Maybe some of these men would rather play video games because their wives annoy them! Maybe there should be an article "Women, how not to annoy your husbands and drive them to play video games too much!"
5. Sarah said the following at 4:09 PM on Jan 6:
Believe it or not, there are some of us single women out there who are quite content being 1) single and 2) having a career. If there is anything I've learned in my 32 years, it's that God has a plan for me and if that means I'm getting married when I'm 50 then so be it.
6. Mike Theemling said the following at 9:19 PM on Jan 6:
More of these women need to read The Cost of Delaying Marriage.
7. Zoe said the following at 12:48 AM on Jan 7:
My grandpa always tells me to make sure that I could take care of myself without a man. I follow this advice, but hope that I don't have to pave a solitary way for myself forever.
I loved the article, "The Cost of Delaying Marriage," because it hits on the major issues and thought processes of us twenty-something women.
Some of my friends think I'm absolutely crazy for straight-up desiring marriage and making it a priority right now, but I don't care. I absolutely want a husband and children and would gladly put my career on the back burner (or take it off the stove!) for it.
There's just something beautiful, live-giving, and God-honoring about marriage and raising a family and, to use Crittenden's analogy, I can't wait for my train to come in!
8. Sarah said the following at 4:27 AM on Jan 7:
OK, I read "The Cost of Delaying Marriage". Why is this article only written regarding women? Isn't there a cost if men delay marriage as well? Why is this issue only considered a woman's problem? If it was God's plan for me to be married by now, I would be, but it's not. I much prefer to be content where God has me placed for now, than be miserable in a place where he doesn't want me to be.
9. Carrie (the original) said the following at 8:24 AM on Jan 7:
Yes, some women see building their career as important. However, I would argue, that it's the default mode. Many women are pursuing their career because there is no man in the picture. They want to be productive members of society and being a wife and mother isn't in the picture because guys aren't pursuing them. These women want to be pursued, but aren't being pursued. So, they need to be career oriented because they need to eat and provide housing over their own head. They can't be a help-mate, so they have to help themselves.
As far as video games go, it's the moderation rule. Some men can stick to the hour or two a day of video games and not let it control them. Other men (and I know one of these who is in their 30s and married with a kid) let it control their lives. They would rather sit in front of the T.V. and numb themselves than go out and provide for their families.
The Boundless writers write for these men and warn all of the pitfalls for others who might be approaching that stage.
10. Elaine said the following at 8:39 AM on Jan 7:
Mike,
bottom line--no matter what we do, we are to do for the glory of God. While I understand Candace's assertion regarding prioritizing career over family, you should also know that sometimes the reasons why some women aren't married yet is because of the age factor. Yes, I said age. Many marriage minded women IN COLLEGE who get passed over because college men are too busy attempting to solidify their "big man on campus" reputation.
So consequently, the older you get, men your own age have a tendency to go for a younger model. So, unless your standards are really high, you will have to be willing to get involved with someone who is slightly to significantly older than you.
I also believe that this article doesn't really address the big question that this issue undercuts: What is success? Unfortunately, many in the church, both men and women seem to believe that success is acquiring a particular professional, financial, social, or marital status(Yes, I said it-married people in the church should not be some first class gold card carrying folks. Singles should not be treated like paupers who live in the slums and need to be rescued.)
I think that really lies at the heart of this issue. Do MEN AND WOMEN think that they need to achieve a certain level of success to: a) attract the right person b) be in a position to raise a family c)because we value money and status over family d) all of the above?
Just my thoughts...
11. Andrew said the following at 8:52 AM on Jan 7:
It's not easy finding quality Christian girls either. Where I'm from, it seems you have to have a certain body type, hair type, and be very good looking to even have a chance. I'm 23 and have yet to actually find a girl worth pursuing. I find it slightly far fetched that guys would turn to their Xbox's instead of pursuing girls, but on the other hand who just pursues women (other than nasty people) to pursue them? Frankly it's depressing most of the time (for me), I meet all kinds of women but never close (strong values) to what I'm looking for...
12. Adrienne said the following at 9:30 AM on Jan 7:
1. There are some women out there who enjoy video games.
2. Delaying marriage is a problem that I worry about. My goal is to be a stay-at-home-mom, so I feel the pressure to "get my career over with." However, I've invested a lot in my education, so I feel the need to justify it by working in my twenties (and possibly thirties) before settling down.
3. Many of the cities and communities that have large single populations also have a culture opposed to marriage. Here in DC, everyone is so career-focused that hookups are much more common. There are lots of single men, but not many are interested in pursuing marriage.
13. Jeffrey said the following at 10:42 AM on Jan 7:
In my experience - as well as that of other men I know - it has been the case that to desire marriage and then put forth the effort to pursue it results in becoming stigmatized in Christian circles as an overbearing man that is too 'aggressive', 'forward', whatever.
I have often found this perplexing for the reason that such flowery vocabulary is employed to describe the 'beauty' of the vocation of marriage, yet any man who dares to desire it risks coming across as 'desperate', 'clinging', or some other equally unflattering social label.
For instance, most of the Christian women I know want to 'discern their vocations', 'focus on God', etc.; or, when they are not deciding between religious life or marriage usually say something to us men along the lines of wanting 'to be good friends', etc.
The social hurdles we have to overcome and queues we are supposed to be able to pick up on discourage many a man from 'pursuing a woman with intention'. For that reason, among others, I think the current drought in marriage lies not just only in a sort of rabid pursuit of career, but also in the social expectations those 'good Christian guys' are supposed to abide by.
I honestly don't understand it. If so many Christian women supposedly want marriage, why do they support an entire collection of social routines that work contrary to their purposes?
14. Christina said the following at 11:39 AM on Jan 7:
Sometimes its hard to figure out how to balance career with life.
I'm beyond frustrated because my job demands a lot of hours (and because I refuse to invest that time, my job security is increasingly jeopardized). They believe that the best employees are career oriented (and they are probably right). However, for a woman who isn't career oriented but still needs a job to support her single condition, work is difficult to find and hold on to.
I'm struggling daily with motivation to meet my job's demands while still having the time and energy to pursue the social life that may lead to a marriage-bound relationship. Its draining and the lack of success is disheartening and it becomes increasingly difficult to continue fighting both battles. My boss told me once, quoting scripture, "you can't serve two masters." It irritated me because he implied that I should be choosing career over anything else - and I refuse to accept that work is all there is to life.
15. Marci said the following at 12:29 PM on Jan 7:
Sarah,
I really think the article "The Cost of Delaying Marriage" is right on...it seems that this is more of a womans issue (from the standpoint of biological clocks). Because of the ratio of men to women, the fact of the matter is that men can play games a lot longer....and still end up getting married whenever they decide to get serious (This drives me *nuts*). It seems like when women delay marriage for a career they often don't end up married (or are unable to have children, so don't get exactly what they dreamed of); this is probably because men still have the "asking power" (as they should).
In terms of thinking that God's will is the only think implicated in your unmarried state, I'd encourage you to look at Candace's article found here:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001254.cfm
I grew up in a church that taught that marriage was only the result of God's will...and honestly, I've never known of a church with so many women who are in their 50's and have never been married. Seriously.
Because of this teaching, I grew up fearing that I, too, would never get married. I'm blessed that I came into contact with people at other churches and got exposed to healthy counsel in this area (I no longer attend the church I grew up in). I'm also now happily engaged.
I don't know if I interpreted your post correctly (if I didn't, please say), but if I did, you may find it really empowering to discover that God isn't in heaven matchmaking ...there's more involved....and there are simple things you can do (I can't wait till Candice's book comes out; I'm planning to purchase it for some of my single friends who want to know what they can do to get married)
Blessings
16. Nicole said the following at 12:35 PM on Jan 7:
How are women supposed to choose love over a career, when love is not being presented as an option to them? Women have control over their careers for the most part. They can chose to go to college and chose what type of job they want to pursue. Yet, when it comes to finding love, women are often not taught how to pursue that. Somehow, it will just happen "in God's time" if we "wait on the Lord". I think women, especially Christian women, don't feel like they really have all that much control over finding a mate. So, they do what they know how to do....go to school, find a job....wait for a husband.
I don't think most Christian women directly choose a career over marriage, it usually is just what happens while you are "waiting". Are we really going to discourage women from going to college or finding a job to wait for a man? What are they going to do in the meantime? I am only speaking from my experience, and those of my friends. I got married at 29, and I do have a good career - but would have happily have chosen marriage over that if that option was available to me.
17. Bethany D. said the following at 2:07 PM on Jan 7:
Adrienne: For #2, you might also consider your college investment as an insurance policy. If God calls you to be single for awhile, if you were widowed, or your husband was disabled & couldn't work, your college degree means you would be better prepared to support yourself/your family. You don't HAVE to 'use' your degree to have a career any more than you HAVE to burn down your house to 'use' your fire insurance!
18. P&P said the following at 2:33 PM on Jan 7:
Since Elizabeth Cady Stanton is mentioned in another blog post, I thought I'd share this from her speech entitled "Solitude of Self," Address before the U. S. Senate Committee on Woman Suffrage, February 20, 1892.
I think this explains why women choose to focus on a career:
"The strongest reason for giving woman all the opportunities for higher education, for the full development of her faculties, her forces of mind and body; for giving her the most enlarged freedom of thought and action; a complete emancipation from all forms of bondage, of custom, dependence, superstition; from all the crippling influences of fear-is the solitude and personal responsibility of her own individual life. The strongest reason why we ask for woman a voice in the government under which she lives; in the religion she is asked to believe; equality in social life, where she is the chief factor; a place in the trades and professions, where she may earn her bread, is because of her birthright to self -sovereignty; because, as an individual, she must rely on herself."
19. Me said the following at 2:48 PM on Jan 7:
You said:
It can be frustrating to be a single woman hoping for marriage with no prospects in sight. In many cities and towns, it really does seem like all the good men are married.
Could easily say:
It can be frustrating to be a single man hoping for marriage with no prospects in sight. In many cities and towns, it really does seem like all the good women are married.
Women are kidding themselves when they think guys aren't asking them out because they would rather play video games. I've been associated like the rest of the men in our Sunday School class as a coward since I haven't asked any of them out but would you really want Christian men just asking out other Christian women (known as hooking up in the secular world)?
There are a few guys in the class who have asked ladies in the class and have been turned down. Also there are those who asked them out and are now married. I think the real problem isn't that the guy isn't asking the girl out but that they guys and girls aren't attracted to each other.
In that case, one might refer to the article titled I'm just not attracted to her or maybe write a similar one for women. In any case if any of the guys in the class met a woman they were into, I think they would more then likely be a little too zealous to go out with her then to be afraid to act.
20. Tgify2001 said the following at 3:27 PM on Jan 7:
I agree with a lot of the women here. I bet if we delved further into the reasoning as to why so many women selected career over "love", it would play out something like this:
Non-committal man has been dating woman for six months. Woman gets fantastic job opportunity in another city. Woman packs up and moves for the job. Thus, woman is choosing career over love.
21. Candice Watters said the following at 4:10 PM on Jan 7:
It's certainly frustrating to not have any good marriage prospects and yes, women should be faithful stewards of their gifts and talents, whatever their marital standards.
However, there is more a Christ-following woman can do beyond merely pray for a husband. Prayer is essential, but it's not exclusive.
For starters, keeping the hope of marriage alive is essential to not letting the pursuit of career become all-consuming (women who fall into that trap often find their career undermining any prospects for marriage).
Additionally, joining and becoming actively involved in a Bible-believing church body is essential. The input of mentors (Titus 2) is a big part of what's involved in marrying well in our post-marriage culture.
Having the benefit of a woman whose marriage you admire both praying for you and encouraging you to grow in your faith and maturity (as well as pointing out any other ares that need work to prepare you for marriage) is foundational.
There's much to be said on this subject. Especially the notion that it's "all God" when it comes to getting a husband. Women have a part to play, too.
22. Sarah said the following at 5:04 PM on Jan 7:
Marci - You are correct. There is definitely a different biological alarm clock set for women than for men. And yes, a woman needs to do more than just sit at home and wait for Mr. Right to come knock on her door. For myself, I have not come to my current peace of mind without a lot of prayer and reflection. For some people, the 20s is the right time to marry, for me it wasn't and God has shown me that right now isn't the time either. (and as for the biological clock, He's also made it clear to me that I'm meant to adopt at some point in time.) I used to stew and fret and worry over being single. I finally came to the point where I turned my singleness over to God to control and when I did, I began to see all of the experiences I have been blessed with having. I have a great family, a great church, great friends, and yes a great job. I have no regrets.
23. MEG said the following at 6:48 PM on Jan 7:
This has been a huge topic with me lately!
I agree with Adrienne, I too want to be a homemaker and mom, yet I am in the middle of a 4-year degree and will not have a career when I graduate unless I continue in my studies.
The question then is: what am I to do in the few years I have between graduating and starting a family? Do I need to have a career waiting for me once I am an empty-nester at 50?
Do women need to have a career ready for these circumstances? Because that is what society is telling me!
24. farmer Tom said the following at 7:13 PM on Jan 7:
I originally came to Boundless after being involved in a discussion on this subject at the blog of an author who wrote a book on how "Christian" women could find a "Christian" husband. I do not mention her name because she still has part of our discussion posted at her blog, and I'm not trying to revive the controversy.
I took issue with how she looks at the career path in relation to marriage. I see the same evidences in the comments on this thread. Ladies, you desperately need to understand that you tend by nature to make decisions based on emotion rather that rational logical thought. I understand that the comment I just made is politically incorrect and inflammatory, but I'll prove my point from comments on this very thread. Just because I quote your words ladies, do not get angry, call me names, accuse me of being a jerk or what ever it is that your anger is going to cause you to do, rather consider the facts and ask yourself, is it possible that this man sees something I don't? Is it possible that I have priorities based on ideas and emotions which are unBiblical in the worst case and simply foolish at their best.
These are examples from this post. I will not use the names because it isn't about you personally, rather it is about the idea and philosophies that lay behind the comments.
First, OK, I read "The Cost of Delaying Marriage". Why is this article only written regarding women? Isn't there a cost if men delay marriage as well? Why is this issue only considered a woman's problem? If it was God's plan for me to be married by now, I would be, but it's not. I much prefer to be content where God has me placed for now, than be miserable in a place where he doesn't want me to be.
The article is written about women because biologically you have a limited shelf life, in regards to your child bearing years. No matter how much you hate the facts, you have a limited number of eggs and a limited number of years to have those eggs fertilized. I'm a farmer, I make my living dealing with reproduction of swine. We raise young healthy female hogs with the intent of having them give birth to as many pigs as possible in the shortest time possible, why, because they have a limited reproductive life. The older they get, the less productive they are, less pigs, less money, farmer goes broke. If you want children, you need to do it when your young. The odds get worse by the day. The older you get the less chance you will have children.
Men on the other hand, (and male hogs) are capable of being the sire to children many years past when the women are capable of doing the same. Thirty, forty and fifty years after women can no longer have children, men can still produce offspring. You may not like that fact, you may blame God, say it's unfair, but the facts are facts and you can not change them.
Again, if you want children, you need to do it now.
If it was God's plan for me to be married by now, I would be, but it's not
And you know this because? How many young men did you refuse to even consider dating because he, didn't have money, plays to many video games, drives a junky car, is shy, not a snappy dresser, looks geeky?
Women have all the power in real dating relationships because they have the power to tell the young men no. Too many of you have used that power to eliminate any and every young man ever to come into your life because you think that you're "perfect", he's not good enough, you're looking for the knight in shining armor, you watch too many Hollywood movies, what ever the reason, you have rejected the men God brought into your life for reasons that fail to meet "Biblical" standards. Too many of you confuse lack of having a husband, with God not leading the right man into your life, while at the time you rejecting all advances from any man who did not meet your "standards".
BTW, I reject the "content" argument in relation to the search for a marriage partner. This assumes that God will drop the "right" man in your lap like a fairy godmother waving a magic wand. In reality, you have to actively seek a husband just as you pursued a career, buying a car or choosing a college. How many of you choose a college by sitting on your hands waiting for God to drop it in your lap? Are you going where the kind of husband you seek is at? Are you changing your actions and behaviors to attract a man. If your actions and behaviors are unattractive, guess what, you'll get exactly what your trying to get, nothing. How many of you go places that guys like, not because you enjoy it, but because if your going to get a man, you go where they are?
I can see where this is true....let me ask another question...in the light of even Christian marriages falling victim to the 50% divorce rate...do you think women are also thinking about being able to support themselves if ever a time came where there was no man in the picture?
Ok, now is the divorce rate a result of or a cause of the career path? See in my personal experience, more than 70 percent of the divorces that I know about were filed by the women, and in all of those cases it was because she was "unfulfilled" in the marriage. Not abuse or some kind of immoral behavior on the part of the man but a personal focus by the woman on herself to the exclusion of the marriage. Did having and focusing on a career cause her to place less emphasis on her responsibilities and duties in the marriage relationship?
Yes, some women see building their career as important. However, I would argue, that it's the default mode. Many women are pursuing their career because there is no man in the picture. They want to be productive members of society and being a wife and mother isn't in the picture because guys aren't pursuing them. These women want to be pursued, but aren't being pursued. So, they need to be career oriented because they need to eat and provide housing over their own head. They can't be a help-mate, so they have to help themselves.
I reject this model as well. Our culture and even our churches have placed a high value on the individually of women to the exclusion of the family. I believe that women are to be under the covering of a man. Until they are married it should be their father. Too many father's want their daughters out of the home, dependent on themselves, so that daddy can get a new boat or a sports car or a new house. I believe the Biblical model would not have young women living an independent, "uncovered" life.
Just food for thought, if some of you had The money that was spent on that college education saved instead as a dowry and a Godly young man coming around to visit, would you be content?
However, I've invested a lot in my education, so I feel the need to justify it by working in my twenties (and possibly thirties) before settling down. and I'm beyond frustrated because my job demands a lot of hours (and because I refuse to invest that time, my job security is increasingly jeopardized). They believe that the best employees are career oriented (and they are probably right). However, for a woman who isn't career oriented but still needs a job to support her single condition, work is difficult to find and hold on to.
I'm struggling daily with motivation to meet my job's demands while still having the time and energy to pursue the social life that may lead to a marriage-bound relationship. Its draining and the lack of success is disheartening and it becomes increasingly difficult to continue fighting both battles. My boss told me once, quoting scripture, "you can't serve two masters." It irritated me because he implied that I should be choosing career over anything else - and I refuse to accept that work is all there is to life.
I genuinely feel these young ladies pain. Our culture is telling them to pursue a career (even past their child bearing years) while in their heart they know that God ordained the marriage and family and they can not stop the feeling that they are missing God best and highest calling when instead their days are filled with PowerPoint presentations, paper shuffling and other tasks that have no eternal value.
This is a long post, but I believe that many of you need to reread, Luke 14:28:
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
My paraphrase, "Which of you intending to have a spouse, sitteth not down first and counteth the cost, whether or not you are investing in the right things".
Are you spending your money and the irreplaceable commodity (time) on a career which does nothing to help you in a higher goal, marriage and family?
25. Novagirl in DC said the following at 7:15 PM on Jan 7:
I agree with Sarah -- is there any way we can get a major Christian male author/speaker to write a book about the costs of delaying marriage for men? I think single women have heard that message loud and clear, and we want to be married.
Much as I love and believe what Candice is saying and loved the book (finished it this weekend -- awesome!), I also think that men hear tough messages best from other men. It's time that a promiment male steps up to communicate to men the "costs of delaying marriage" and "how to pursue a woman." Candice, do you have any cool friends you could get to write a book similar to "Get Married" for the guys?
Jeffrey -- you are right about the social cues that I often find silly, counter-productive and unfair to the guys. I don't know in what age group you're seeing this, but I often find that women who are over 30 show fewer of these behaviors.
26. Kellie said the following at 8:02 PM on Jan 7:
Farmer Tom wrote: "[...]didn't have money, plays to many video games, drives a junky car, is shy, not a snappy dresser, looks geeky"
That pretty much describes my husband...yet I didn't meet him until I was 23 . And he was the first (and only) guy to ask me out.
27. tgify2001 said the following at 8:34 PM on Jan 7:
@ Farmer Tom:
You said:
"And you know this because? How many young men did you refuse to even consider dating because he, didn't have money, plays to many video games, drives a junky car, is shy, not a snappy dresser, looks geeky?"
I say:
And how many women have you not asked out because they were too fat, too ugly or otherwise not your "type"?
Why is everything always the fault of women?
28. Candice Watters said the following at 8:48 PM on Jan 7:
"Candice, do you have any cool friends you could get to write a book similar to 'Get Married' for the guys?"
Yep. His name's Steve Watters. But the publisher says books for guys don't sell 'cuz guys don't read books (too many video games, maybe). We're hoping if "Get Married" does well, then we'll be able to make the case again for a version of it for men.
29. BB said the following at 9:12 PM on Jan 7:
@tgify2001
It's because it is the women who are voicing their opinion. Most strong single Christian men want to marry just as much as the women but it is the women who become the squeaky wheels. That's why Candice needs to apply the majority of the grease on them.
I know one woman I thought I could be interested in but the way she reacted to her singleness made me wonder how she would react to other issues in her life. Last thing a man wants is to listen to his wife nag. I know I'd hate to break out the lawn chairs for the corner of my roof to get away from her (Proverbs 21:9 HCSB).
30. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:02 PM on Jan 7:
Although farmer Tom does put things rather bluntly (and I apologize ladies on behalf of all men) most of his observations are either correct from a factual standpoint or I agree with his opinions. Let's take them one by one:
Fact #1 - A woman's greatest chance for marriage is when she is young(er)
The facts are as follows: In the entire world, the mean age of women is 3-4 years younger than the man. This is for pretty much every country on the planet. Call it culture, call it sex appeal, call it more time to be fertile or whatever; men prefer women younger than them. Yes, that includes Christian men. If you did a straw poll of your parents and those in church how many men actually married women OLDER than them? I'd dare say less than 5%. What this means is if you are 35 years old you probably have cut off the male population those about 35-ish and younger initiating with you.
Fact #2 - The reason why a man can find a wife easier when he's older is because men and women have different priorities
Sorry ladies, but guys are visual. Unless the man is blind I don't know a single guy who genuinely believes looks aren't important at all. Now most guys aren't only visual, but that's the first impression we get. Ladies are often put http://www.ochuk.com/?p=935>"on the ladder" and then can move up/down accordingly based upon their other characteristics. But the initial placement is still significant.
The fact is that a woman's appearance, thus sexual power as Crittenden says, starts fading about at the age of 30 (save for a heavy dose of makeup and cosmetic surgery). Again, this seems to go hand in hand with a woman's fertility (as explained below).
I personally find it strange that God in His infinite wisdom designed us men this way. According to the Bible, charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, and we are supposed to look at the heart. Yet considering how it's the one thing we are supposed to be the least concerned about we rank it very high and in fact are designed that way. I'm still baffled at the apparent contradiciton of design vs. intent.
For men however, appearance is not the primary consideration. Some are attracted to older (or less good-looking) men for a variety of reasons: inferred maturity, financial security, intelligence, etc. This is why you often see older men as news anchors yet rarely see an older woman as one except maybe Barbara Walters.
Fact #3 - A woman's fertility decreases dramatically as she is older
At around age thirty, the probablity of a woman conceiving starts decreasing dramatically. I remember posting the actual percentages a while ago in a previous post and don't have them handy, but basically once 35 is hit, it gets much harder and by 40 it's very unlikely. Of course there are medical remedies such as invitrofertilization, but natural intercourse just won't do.
Assertion #1 - Feigning interest in marriage generally does not help you
Every time I talk to young women in their 20's about their future plans or desires, regardless if I'm interested in them or not romantically, I very rarely hear something to the effect of "I want to be a wife/mother". Plans always revolve around some other periphery of their lives which is usually their career plans (or schooling, or mission work, etc.). Some women argue that it would "scare away" men who would be interested in them and I agree it can...to a point. No one likes to see desperation. But such attitudes can be, and often is, taken too far. And if a guy is that afraid of commitment, he's probably not worth it anyway.
Assertion #2 - Saying, "Well I'm not married yet so it's not God's will I am" is a huge fallacy
Say a test were coming up and I chose not to go to class or study for it. And then I were to pray to God, "God, if it's your will, please let me do well on the test". Test day comes and you bomb the test. Would it be fair to say that it was "God's will" that you didn't pass? Many unfortunately apply the same logic to marriage. They don't ask or accept dates. They aren't sociable. They don't maintain proper hygeine and health. And yet they assume if God wants them married God will miraculously produce a spouse for them.
My apologies to those who HAVE done their best to find a spouse and have come up emptyhanded (I'm one of those so I know to an extent how it feels). But just remember, the lament of "No one is asking me out" usually really means "No one I am interested in is asking me out"
Assertion #3 - Men are often characterized negatively, especially in the church, so women feel they are justified in waiting
If you've been reading Boundless as long as I have (for almost 8 years running now), you get a "feel" for most of the articles. In terms of relationships, the majority of them paint the picture of a single guy who is fairly immature. He can't get out of adultesence. He doesn't want to settle down with a family and just wants to "play the field". Rather than find a stable job that will provide for a family he still lives at home playing video games all day. Ad naseum. When one hears of a breakup it's almost universally assumed it's the man's fault (I think in almost all instances both share some responsibility). HE'S the one defrauding her. HE'S the one who won't commit. HE'S the one who...
Farmer Tom is correct that a good number of divorces are filed by the woman without any signs of physical abuse or infidelity. And what's worse is that in our legal system, unless there is overwhelming evidence, custody of the children almost always goes to the woman if there's a dispute. Again, this is to not say that the man is absolved of any blame (I stated it takes two to tango), but I wonder if indeed some of these women are just "bored" or feel "restrained".
I don't want Assertion #3 to turn into a battle of the sexes, but I do think it's fair to say that we often biasly attribute "good" attributes to women and "not so good" ones to men.
Don't believe me, try this: Which gender (male or female) first pops in your mind when you hear these words:
- Loving
- Peaceful
- Patient
- Kind
- Gentle
I know for myself I thought of women first in all 5. And you know what, the above 5 were 5 of the 9 Fruits of the Spirit as spoken in Galatians.
Ok, what about these words? Same deal. Whatever gender pops in your mind first.
- Arrogant
- Lustful
- Wreckless
- Greedy
Now which gender? I thought so.
To be fair there are some negatives which are we tend to assign to Females:
- Gossipy
- Promiscuous
And virtues for Males:
- Courageous
- Wise
I am thankful for those who have contributed to this thread and am eager to read the future responses.
31. Justice said the following at 10:25 PM on Jan 7:
Farmer Tom,
You are my e-Hero.
32. Childless single woman said the following at 1:02 AM on Jan 8:
Farmer Tom – Can you consider the possibility that women disagree with you because you are wrong, and not out of some misdirected anger at God or His design?
You are obviously not aware of the latest research on fertility. Although men can father children later than women, serious risks are attached to fatherhood over about the age of 35:
“More than 20 rare but devastating genetic disorders have been linked to aging fathers. In addition, older men have more problems with fertility than do younger men, and women of all ages have more miscarriages if their partner is 35 years of age or older. DNA damage in sperm is one probable explanation for the genetic abnormalities associated with fatherhood at an older age. The testicular cells that give rise to sperm divide every 16 days; this means that the cells will have split about 840 times by age 50, and with each cell division the chance increases for errors in the sperm's DNA. Examination of sperm from men ages 22 to 80 showed a progressive increase with age in the number of broken DNA strands and other genetic abnormalities….Parents-to-be should recognize that younger adulthood is the best time for both sexes to have children.”
(There are numerous studies cited on the internet about this. I can’t remember which one the above is taken from, but it’s not hard to find if you look!).
So God was right when He talked about “the wife of your youth”. Plus of course there are the obvious advantages to younger fatherhood, in particular I think the benefits of the various generations. Having paternal grandparents, or even great-grandparents that are still fit and healthy, and likewise the likelihood of being a grandfather some day themselves.
To address another of your points, actually, most women have not had the opportunity to turn down lots of Godly men, shy or otherwise! It simply ain’t happening, Farmer Tom. You seem to take the attitude of well, you turned down that guy that you didn’t feel the least bit attracted too when you were 17, so now it’s your own fault that you are single two decades later!
Are Christian men obliged to ask every young woman they come across on a date, regardless of whether they are remotely attracted to her or not? Didn’t think so…
Also, you are unbelievably blinkered when you speak of “Women have all the power in real dating relationships because they have the power to tell the young men no.” Have you considered the possibility that the power lies with the men, because they have the power of pursuit in the first place? Every single woman that a man doesn’t ask out, he has effectively rejected, before she even gets the opportunity to decide whether or not to accept him!
I also think comments like this are meaningless: “See in my personal experience, more than 70 percent of the divorces that I know about were filed by the women, and in all of those cases it was because she was "unfulfilled" in the marriage.” How many divorces is this extensive study based on, and how well do you know the details of these marriages? Very few outsiders know all the details of other people's marriages, even you!
Where I do agree with you is with regard to comments like “If it was God's plan for me to be married by now, I would be.” This is complete and utter nonsense, and the sooner we eliminate such comforting, but ultimately worthless, theology from the contemporary church the better.
Also I agree with this: “I reject the ‘content’ argument in relation to the search for a marriage partner. This assumes that God will drop the 'right' man in your lap like a fairy godmother waving a magic wand. In reality, you have to actively seek a husband just as you pursued a career, buying a car or choosing a college. How many of you choose a college by sitting on your hands waiting for God to drop it in your lap?”
But who is to blame for this attitude, really? This is a widespread, rogue teaching that has entered Christianity, and it needs to be stamped out. But whose fault is it really? The women who believe what their church leaders and Christians around them tell them? Or is false teaching the real crime here, and who is responsible for that?
Shock horror, again, I agree with this: “I believe that women are to be under the covering of a man. Until they are married it should be their father. Too many father's want their daughters out of the home, dependent on themselves, so that daddy can get a new boat or a sports car or a new house. I believe the Biblical model would not have young women living an independent, ‘uncovered’ life.”
So who is to blame here? Is it the daughter or the father?
See, when you speak sense, women agree with you. But don’t expect them to agree with you the vast majority of the time.
Women are in such a lose/lose situation, and Father Tom merrily goes on and on blaming the victim, instead of the perpetrators. It’s no good chastising women for working in a job, when they have little other option open to them. First you have to put the alternative option in place, and for that you should be expending your time and energy addressing single men, not chastising women when they have no alternative (and meanwhile of course these women are also chastised by the rest of the church if they say they do want to get married and have children!)
The way God’s daughters are being treated at the moment is nothing short of shocking.
Now, ironically, I am going to be late for work...
33. teesha said the following at 2:33 AM on Jan 8:
Gee golly, I'm sick and tired of us bickering over to whom the blame is properly given. It's just becoming this He vs. She game that's rehashed over and over again.
Marriage is more than just a business transaction and fertility is more than just human produce.
I'm definitely in the place where the men I'm interested in are: grad school.
34. Sarah said the following at 4:53 AM on Jan 8:
"Too many father's want their daughters out of the home, dependent on themselves, so that daddy can get a new boat or a sports car or a new house. I believe the Biblical model would not have young women living an independent, "uncovered" life."
I can assure you that my parents are not living in a new house or driving around in a new car or boat.
"Just food for thought, if some of you had The money that was spent on that college education saved instead as a dowry and a Godly young man coming around to visit, would you be content?"
No. God made it clear as day to me where I was to go to college, what degree I was supposed to pursue, and what job I was to take.
The wonderful thing about life is that God has given each one of us our own plan.
35. Louise said the following at 5:48 AM on Jan 8:
Farmer tom, see how much more pleasant it is when you express your opinion in a way that does not involve name calling or insults?
Now, re daughters being "under cover" of their fathers until marriage what if the father dies?
My father died when I was in my early 20s.
I do not have children, but to anyone on here who has daughters, would you actually be willing to supply a dowry (I can just imagine the prenuptial agreement on that one!) in leiu of assisting with a college education?
Are dowries still is use anywhere in the world? I know they still were in Asia and maybe parts of Europe one hundred years ago, but now?
And...on a more personal note..I am a woman who filed for divorce. I am afraid your statistic of "70% of women filed because of unfulfillment" rather than abuse is inaccurate. In my case I had lived for several years with a man who showed me zero respect, refused to communicate with me except to criticize, look at me like I was diseased and continually ridiculed me.
I would certainly classify that as abuse rather than "unfulfillment".
36. farmer Tom said the following at 5:54 AM on Jan 8:
Why is everything always the fault of women?
I said earlier that women have the ultimate power in the male female relationship, the power to say no.
A man can only ask, he can not force you to say yes. So if you have ever said no, for whatever reason, some may be valid reasons, understand that you hold the position of power. If you said no, over and over again when you were younger and more concerned with career and college than finding a husband, you made a choice to reduce the odds that you would be asked later in life when you have wasted some of your most fertile and productive years.
All decisions in life have a cost/benefit ratio in them. If you rejected the offers of a relationship and now are not getting any offers, you are simply collecting the cost side of the equation.
All women should look at their opportunities for marriage in the same manner a baseball player looks at his career. When you're young beautiful and health, thats the time for marriage and children, just as a good baseball player is in his prime when he is young. Very few baseball players last into their forties, and those that do are at the end of their useful career. They are big name stars, paid to hit a few home runs and draw the big crowds.
If you think you can start a healthy and happy marriage, when one of the key elements of the marriage relationship is having a family, after the most productive and healthy time of your life is past, you are fooling yourself.
And any guy in his right mind is going to look for a young healthier model to start married life with, that a fact, you can bank on it.
37. Christina said the following at 6:55 AM on Jan 8:
@Farmer Tom,
As to the last paragraph of your little spiel, I thank you :)
Encouragement is always good :)
38. Loris said the following at 8:28 AM on Jan 8:
Farmer Tom,
I know a lot of picky women who would reject a man for the reasons you described. But for every one of those, I know three smart, godly, and stunningly beautiful young women who went all four years of college without a single date because they were never asked out. Some of us even had trouble getting dates for the fall Sadie Hawkins dance. And this was at a Christian college. They never had a chance to reject a geeky guy because nobody (not the jocks, the studious,the gamers, the art nuts, the outgoing, nor the shy) ever took a good hard look at them.
They were where the young men were: a wonderful Christian college with high academic standards and a mostly-even male/female ratio. They were not holed up in solitary sisterhood waiting for some guy to find them on the back left corner of the fourth floor where our hall was. They had many friends of both sexes and were the types of girls no one could say anything against because they were so sweet and considerate. And I'll say it again. Every last girl on the hall was quite attractive at the very least, and a good many of them were knockouts. Not one of them was anything less than a "catch." So where were the guys? I ache for my worthy friends who are still single and cannot understand why.
Also, while the idea of a single woman being under the covering of her father is very comforting, I am afraid it is not always practical. My parents made it clear to me that since my father is disabled and they are on fixed income, as soon as I graduated, I would be expected to support myself fully. They simply could not afford my upkeep any longer. That was just my personal situation, but there are other reasons why I think it would not work in general.
1. It is extremely hard, though some do it, for a single adult woman to continue to live at home. She has become a competent person in her own right, but she lives in a situation where she will have little to no say in the running of the household because that is her mother's domain. Her frustration at being an adult while at work, perhaps even a manager of others, but a child at night when she is at home can fray the respect she should have for her parents.
2. The transition from father's house to husband's care is rarely made as quickly as it was up to sixty years ago. If the young lady goes away to college, but does not find a mate there, that is a possible four years out from under the direct supervision of her parents. What then?
I mentioned my father was disabled. He had a serious illness in early mid-life. Once we got him stabilized, my mother immediately got a job and was able to do this because of her degree and experience. That illustration is an example why a woman very well may need an education or some kind of vocational training. Her husband may die young. He may become disabled. God forbid, he may leave her, or in the case of a few women I know, she may divorce him to escape abuse. Some may say that she should go home to her parents in those cases, but what if she has many young children and her parents are retired on a shoestring?
I honestly want to know.
39. Louise said the following at 8:35 AM on Jan 8:
Mr. Theemling, I agree with you that as a general rule men are more visual than women.
I have written on other threads the importance of all people to keep up their health and attractiveness as they get older.
IMO you do people a great disservice by stating that women over thirty years of age can only remain attractive to men by heavy makeup and plastic surgery.
Proper diet, regular exercise, use of sunscreen products, regular dental checkups, ie basic preventive health measures that all people (males as well as females) should make a priority will have the extra benefit of resulting in a fit, healthy and attractive appearance.
I believe that women are genetically programmed to store extra fat than men are, so women do have to work harder to maintain a healthy weight.
As for waning fertility, since I never desired children, that factor never concerned me and as a result I do not wish to comment on it.
40. Christina said the following at 8:35 AM on Jan 8:
So I have a legitimate question -
How is a woman who is family oriented supposed to balance a 40 hour work week (that demands a 50 - 60 hour work week) and a social life that exposes her to the kind of men she wants to be exposed to?
I've been wanting to get involved with Habitat for Humanity, but one saturday a month isn't enough to build relationships. One day a week isn't either (as far as church is concerned). Community service is a big joke because Saturday is the only day I get to ensure all my finances and house hold chores are taken care of before I do the dance one more time and the work week leaves no time for it.
It was easy in college - I was surrounded by tons of people 24-7 and only in class 4-6 hours a day. But work is work - there is no place for personal relationships in the place I spend the vast majority of my time. Its as if the work environment itself is destroying families little by little - first it started with the men, dragging them away from families in the pursuit of giving those families everything the man never had...now its doing the same to the women. An environment that encourages inter-office hookups with the secretary rather than real, genuine, successful relationships.
41. Candice said the following at 8:46 AM on Jan 8:
Just to clarify, my original post was about women making an intentional move toward career and away from love. I was not commenting on whether women should attend college and go on to use what they've learned in the work force. There are other posts and articles on Boundless that discuss those issues.
And to Loris, I would add that while women in the exceptional circumstances you mentioned need our support and a pastor or mentor's wise counsel, the possibility of winding should not be the driving consideration when making plans for marriage and work. As they say in D.C., legislating to the exceptions makes bad laws for the rest of us.
42. Tami said the following at 8:55 AM on Jan 8:
I wish we could dispose of the idea that either women or men have "all the power" at any point in a relationship. This idea is more sociological than scriptural. Besides this, I could easily point out the ways that men have "all the power" (though I won't, because it's a fruitless discussion).
I also humbly submit that this notion that women have "all the power" is what keeps many young men from approaching women they're attracted to in the first place. We are *all* commended to be strong and courageous, no? This doesn't justify rudeness or over-pickiness on the part of a woman at all. But I don't think it's very healthy for men to walk around with this idea that women have "all the power." It only leads to bitterness, and it's not healthy for us to go around blaming each other for who's really at fault. And saying that any general group has "all" of anything is fallacious. There are exceptions to every rule (except God's).
I also just want to say, gentlemen, that you please consider your words carefully. It is one thing to say things to provoke others to think; quite another to provoke them to despair. Thanks.
43. tgify2001 said the following at 9:10 AM on Jan 8:
Farmer Tom, you still did not address the point of my post:
Perhaps men are single because they were too picky in only asking out the skinny, blonde, young women that reject the over and over again. Perhaps they ignored the homely girl with a few extra pounds that would have been a perfect mate for them.
Can any men address this?????
44. Elizabeth said the following at 9:18 AM on Jan 8:
Rock on Teesha.
I don't know where all of you live, but I live in an east-coast city where the norm is for couples to find each other at age 27 or 29 and married at age 30 or 31. All of the couples in my small group have followed this pattern (almost all of them have advanced degrees and steady careers) and they all seem pretty happy. There are a few singles in their 30s, but no more than I'd expect anywhere. Since we don't live in a polygamous society, it seems that the only reason there would be an excess of single men and/or women would be math; the simple fact that there are more men/women in that community.
I pity the man who marries a woman who is more in love with being married and being a mom than she is in love with him.
45. BB said the following at 9:31 AM on Jan 8:
@Loris
lol, Dove soap model attractive or attractive to males...
Also, I think the example you gave is your mother took a job not a career.
Where did the article say women should not go to college? Where did the article say women should not take jobs? Where did the article say they should not be happy at their work?
@Mike Theemling
Loved the ladder analogy. Very funny.
46. Carrie (the original) said the following at 9:36 AM on Jan 8:
Loris, since we both went to the same Christian college, I will say that the fall "Sadie Hawkins" dance was touch because it was in the first all campus event of the year. It set the tone for who was interested in who that year. I'm glad those years are behind us.
At any rate, there were/are lots of people that graduated without a ring on their finger and no dates. However, they are being married off slowly, but surely. As another alumna noted, the city by which our alma mater resides has to have the highest amount of weddings per capita.
I'll remain hopeful. It doesn't make much sense why some women were persued often and others were never pursued at all, but God is in control of such details. Some of those that were never pursued at all have gained a good, solid, Christ-centered relationship since their college days.
47. Michela said the following at 10:34 AM on Jan 8:
I’ve been reading the Boundless blog for quite some time, but I haven’t yet felt compelled to put in my own two cents. Perhaps I shouldn’t take the bait, but I was too confounded by an earlier entry to remain silent…
In response to Farmer Tom's "How many young men did you refuse to even consider dating because he, didn't have money, plays to many video games, drives a junky car, is shy, not a snappy dresser, looks geeky?"
This makes it sound as though all girls have a plethora of eligible bachelors to choose from, and we choose instead to be picky and then gripe and moan about our single state. I would have to respectfully disagree. I went to a Christian college, participated in countless extra-curricular activities in order to meet and get to know people, and have been very involved in the singles group at my church. It was somewhat hilarious to go through 4 years of college feeling like I was invisible to the single guys around me; I was only asked out one time and then quickly discarded because I didn’t meet his expectations. While it is frustrating to feel like I am doing everything I can to meet my future husband and getting nowhere, I am comforted in knowing that God's plans are bigger and better that my own.
On another note...
Farmer Tom also wrote “If some of you had the money that was spent on that college education saved instead as a dowry and a Godly young man coming around to visit, would you be content?”
Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe God has other plans for women besides just marriage and family? For me, and for many other Christian women, this is not the ultimate goal. My goal is to live out God's plan for my life by furthering His kingdom here on earth, and I refuse to be looked down upon and told that I am not living up to God's standards because I don't have a ring on my finger and a baby on my hip.
The truth is, a career can have eternal value. Consider women who minister to their coworkers, sharing God's love in the workplace and beyond, women who use their gifts and talents to bring glory to God through music, art, language, teaching, etc.
God led me to make a decision about where I went to college, what degree I would graduate with, and ultimately what career path I chose. All through college, I sought God's will and strove to follow Him even when it was extremely difficult. To suggest that instead of following God's will, which might lead them to college and a career, women should be saving their money for a dowry is not only insulting, but shows a blatant disregard for the individual gifts and callings that God has given to each man and woman.
48. Christina said the following at 11:20 AM on Jan 8:
Michela, though not clear, I wonder if Tom's comments were directed at the women who spent the money on a college degree and justify a career to pay for that and are bitter because they still remain unmarried.
You don't sound like one of those women who are discontent not being married, so I don't think his comment concerning that are directed at someone like you.
However, you do bring up a good point about the women who don't have a whole lot of men to be picky about. But Farmer Tom tends to forget about those people whenever he posts, so I tend to overlook it.
As far as that is concerned, I question whether I've been too picky. Having been asked out by 5 guys in my life time, I'm not quite certain I've been overly picky to warrant that being the cause of my continued singleness. One, I was too young to date, 2 others weren't christians, 1 left me for another, and the last is the only one I question whether I was too picky. On one hand, I think I was. On the other, I think I had very legitimate concerns concerning our relationship.
But here's the kicker - I (though not conciously) kept potential men at bay while maintaining very close friendships with other men/boys that I had no future with. Granted, they contributed to this problem by not letting me distance my relationships with them, but all that was discussed in another article by another woman somewhere on this site.
49. farmer Tom said the following at 11:30 AM on Jan 8:
Perhaps they ignored the homely girl with a few extra pounds that would have been a perfect mate for them.
and the story on sadie hawkins,
Ok, let me make this very clear. I do not, nor have I ever suggested that men are without responsibility in the dating/marriage department. I'd repeat myself, but I swear it won't matter anyway.
As I asserted earlier, BTW Mike, don't apologize for me, I'm blunt on purpose. I hate slimy politicians who talk out of both corners of their mouth, never telling you exactly what they think. Anyway, too many women react in an emotional fashion to the circumstances that surround them. The sadie hawkins story is a prime example. I'm sorry that some of the girls did not get to go to the event, but how did they react? Did they express their disdain for all the men or did they began to work on building relationships with some of the guys who also did not go to the event. I guarantee you that not all of the guys went to the sadie hawkins event either. I personally was never invited to one in two years of college life. Of course I was a country bumpkin geek with thick glasses and clothes from the second hand store. So your sob story of the ladies not going to sadie hawkins doesn't sell, my personal experience says they were all sitting in their rooms pining away over the jock/good looking ladies man who failed to notice them.
And the girl with the few extra pounds. Well that's a problem. Because to many of you fail to understand marketing. If you're trying to sell a house you do your best to make it respectable. If your trying to sell yourself as a suitable marriage partner, but your house is in disrepair, or your fail to fix the obvious flaws in its appearance, your house is going to be on the market a long time.
Most guys do not want to buy a fix-her upper. They expect the young lady to have enough self-respect to take care of herself. If you have a few extra pounds, fix it, don't blame it on the guys who fail to ask you out. You and you alone are responsible for your personal appearance. If there is something about your personal appearance that you know does not attract the guys, change.
50. Emily said the following at 12:37 PM on Jan 8:
I think that it is crucial for women to develop a trade in the workforce so they can support themselves, supplement family income or support the family when it is necessary to do so. It is very difficult to pay the bills and to afford the basics of life without a steady job. Sometimes, two incomes may be necessary to make ends meet. Therefore, I don't believe that a woman is ruining her marital future by taking whatever measures she needs to strengthen her career. Career skills can and do easily transition well into building discipline in other areas of life. The workplace provides opportunities, for people to be used by God.
As a graduate student and a professional, I believe that advancing my education and building my profession has afforded me many opportunities to develop as a person.
51. tgify2001 said the following at 1:16 PM on Jan 8:
@ Farmer Tom,
"If there is something about your personal appearance that you know does not attract the guys, change. "
I hope that advice is gender-neutral. If men notice that women aren't impressed with their video-game habits, bird-chest or lack of education, they need to change as well. I just wanted to make sure that it was acknowledged that both men and women have an equal share in rejecting potential mates.
52. Carrie (the original) said the following at 1:42 PM on Jan 8:
farmerTom,
As a single woman with a "few extra pounds" I thank you for your blatant honesty. I'm so sick and tired of hearing "people need to look on the inside" that I could gag. The outside is a reflection of the inside.
I'm sure f.t. is going to catch some heat, but I thank him ahead of time.
53. Shazia said the following at 2:10 PM on Jan 8:
why are women faulted for not accepting a date from a man they are not interested in? Would you as a man accept dating a woman you were not interested in?
when women say they are not asked out, yes it might mean that they are not necessarily not being asked out, but are not being asked out by men they are interested in. So what? Don't you as men also want to be interested in the women you are dating? Likewise for the women. It seems like a bit of a double standard, for women to be chastised if they are picky about choosing a man, but you as men want a woman YOU are attracted to.
54. tgify2001 said the following at 3:19 PM on Jan 8:
@ Shazia
THANK YOU!! Men erroneously come to the conclusion that women hold all of the power when they focus on the women they ask out. However, they are missing the women who would have liked to have been asked out by these men, but for whatever reason, these men did not deem them worthy of their attention due to being too fat/ugly/stupid/not feminine enough/whatever!
55. Rebekah said the following at 4:16 PM on Jan 8:
I have to step in here and give my two cents as one of the women who would appear to have chosen her career over marriage.
I am currently at 21 year old medical student. I have at least 6.5 years before I'm done with my training and will be a full, independent doctor. No men have ever pursued me, so I see no reason not to continue full tilt with my plans. I feel that God put the desire for me to be a doctor in my heart so I'm pursued it.
That's not to say that I don't ever want to get married or have children. I have seen many of my classmates, mainly the male ones, who are married struggle with giving their wives the attention they deserve, finding time to help raise their children, and still succeed in school. I see this as unfair to their wives and children, but I also know that when they're doctors the amount of free time they'll have will still be limited, but they will have hopefully learned time management better.
What I'm trying to say is that, I can't imagine how I'd find time to get married and be a good wife while learning to be a doctor. I do hope that one day, in the next 10 years, I'll have found a way to balance these two desires, but right now I'm perfectly happy pursuing my career alone. In the long run, both my future family and future patients will benefit from my single minded pursuit of my career at this point in time.
Now what's wrong with that?
56. Kellie said the following at 4:30 PM on Jan 8:
Farmer Tom,
I would caution to remember that there are physical aspects which one cannot change (I happen to have a physical disability). That said, the physical appearance of a person should have no bearing on their attitude and if it does, a person should seek to change it.
57. farmer Tom said the following at 4:40 PM on Jan 8:
Two things,
why are women faulted for not accepting a date from a man they are not interested in?
No one is faulting you, we are simply suggesting that the opportunity cost of rejecting men who show an interest in you may later come back to haunt you. You have a free will, you have every opportunity to buy gold when it was $400 dollars an ounce. But do not blame me when it is now $875 and you did not take advantage of my advice to buy at $400. Every decision you make in life has a cost/benefit factor. What will it cost you to reject the interest of a possible suitor, maybe you'll never have another chance?
You are a commodity with diminishing return, the longer you wait to pursue marriage the lower your value in the marriage market. What's the demand in the marriage market for 40 year old, overweight, cat lover's? About the same as 80 year old grandma's with a $500,000 bank account. One you marry for the money, the other you marry for ....give me a good reason.... cause your good in bed?....why would any guy in his right mind what to marry a woman who is past her prime, most likely has been sexually promiscuous in her past, and currently has thousands of dollars of debt in housing, credit cards and veterinary bills. She will not most likely be capable of having children, and she is probably bitter against men as well.
they are missing the women who would have liked to have been asked out by these men,
Now that's an interesting thought. What would you do about that. Force men to date the women they aren't interested in? Pass a law that by your own description men are required to date only women who are fat/ugly/stupid/not feminine enough/whatever!
You totally missed the point. Women hold the power because it is in your hands to say yes or no. If your aren't being asked, then do something about it. Find an advisor, a Godly man or woman, and have them tell you why men are avoiding, unattracted to, scared of, or simply ignoring you. If you're fat/ugly/stupid/not feminine enough, whatever! fix it.
58. Tim said the following at 6:12 PM on Jan 8:
Oddly enough, I felt very strongly that God has been leading me towards marriage, and soon instead of "someday".
I am also quite sure that I would be a wonderful mate for just the kind of successful career oriented woman who couldn't do the traditional roles and will need a man that is willing and accommodating to her callings. Someone like a doctor. But sadly it seems that women are hardwired to marry up, and it's even stronger then mens' preference for young/thin/blondes that so widely receives condemnation. You will see it with the female doctors who want to marry another doctor... anyone could predict the doom that would spell. Women just seem incapable of accepting a guy of lower social status.
Even worse would be the trend to reject any guy that shows "too much" interest. Since obviously she is out of his league and he knows it, hence the desperation on his part, clearly she could get a better guy and can't afford to "settle" for him. (He just isn't "God's best") Probably why they never get over guys who won't commit. If the guy is leery of her, then he must be really good, and if she can somehow trick him, She wins. He represents the best catch possible. Not a thought is given to he total lack of security and permanency in that arrangement. He has high social status!
59. farmer Tom said the following at 7:52 PM on Jan 8:
Kellie,
(I happen to have a physical disability)
God has given you a very hard burden to bear. I would say I'm sorry, but He is sovereign and His plan for your life is beyond your and my understanding.
The interesting thing is that there are guys out there who are willing to marry someone with a disability. God bless anyone who chooses to accept that responsibility.
Which leads to another point about my previous post. So many young ladies whine about how men are superficial, look only at appearance, etc. Yet they refuse to make the effort to change things about themselves which are changeable. I know you would change your disability in a heartbeat if that were possible, yet they refuse to change minor things. It makes one feel less compassion for their plight knowing that they refuse to take responsibility for their own personal circumstances.
God Bless You Kellie
60. tgify2001 said the following at 8:03 PM on Jan 8:
No Farmer Tom, you totally missed my point. Men are not the helpless creatures you want us to assume they are. Men have the power to go after what they want, women have to wait to receive. Men have tremendous power deciding who to approach. Women who are outside the "normal" standard of beauty in this country are the losers because men decide who they ask out. For instance, if I am black and only white women are considered beautiful in this society, I can't just FIX IT as you suggest. Whether you acknowledge it or not, some women are left out even when they are in their "prime" so to speak. NOW ADDRESS THAT!
61. ag said the following at 9:43 PM on Jan 8:
Some men see women as mere commodities, then there are men who see women as human and all that encompasses...talented, imperfect, wonderful, difficult, interesting. etc.
Smart women will choose the latter type of man and aviod the former. I married the latter type of man when I was in my 30's. My many years of marriage could not have been more loving or Christ centered.
Women cannot change men who lack a kindness of spirit. We cannot change men who are angered by women that don't follow the prescribed rules (marry before you get ugly, have babies before you are infertile and useless)
It is important to remember, however, that we don't have to associate with such men. Furthermore, we are under no obligation to hold their views in high esteem.
62. Frank said the following at 10:48 PM on Jan 8:
My more than 2c in Farmer Tom's defense
(@ tgify2001, Shazia)
It is almost without exception a guy can not go for a girl who is not physically attractive to him (and any guy who claims otherwise is lying or blind). But for girls, her man does not need to be physically attractiveness (and there are countless examples), but being attractive doesn't hurt. This gives some context to Farmer Tom's various recommendations and why they are double standards.
(@ others)
I really do agree that gentleladies are at EVERY disadvantage. Truly, I would joyfully take the problems of being a guy over the problems of being a girl.
But also know that as a girl, your problems are ones you have to deal with or else you might not participate in certain things (e.g.: marriage, raising kids to love and fear the Lord, ...). So I second Farmer Tom. If you desire marriage and kids, the problems involved in "fixing it" are often better than the problems of not "fixing it", probably by exceedingly wide margin. Such is life and there is very little you can do to change the rules of time and biology.
63. Kelly said the following at 7:27 AM on Jan 9:
I get really frustrated with articles that suggest that 'successful' women DELIBERATELY postponed marriage for career.
I would have given up my job years ago for a husband (this includes actual experience, the only reason I didn't was because the guy in question decided he didn't want to marry me). I have always wanted marriage first, but could see no sense in sitting idly, waiting for it to happen.
So I went to university. I worked hard. At 29, I earn 150K a year and rarely work more than 40 hours a week (God blessed me with a quick mind). And because of this, people assume I pursued my career whole-heartedly and turned my back on marriage.
Not true. Money and career just seemed to 'happen' for me when all I really wanted, and all I still desire, is a husband. I think you'll find that most successful women are in this boat: without a household to manage or a husband to take care of, our energies were directed into something else.
64. Eliza said the following at 8:40 AM on Jan 9:
Farmer Tom,
I wonder why you're so emotional about this. Both your tone and the voraciousness with which you defend your position hints at more than just an intellectual opinion. I can only think that either you feel like you are extremely superior to all the women around you, or you yourself feel inferior because you've been rejected.
65. Robert J Espe said the following at 8:58 AM on Jan 9:
Someone asked earlier how a family oriented single working 50-60 hrs/wk can find time for romance. The answer is they can't, and that's their choice, but they should stop thinking of themselves as family focused. It is clear that work is their priority.
Someone also asked about dowry's (don't know why people would think those have to come from parents these days, my dad didn't pay for our college either). Each of my sisters has a "hope chest". Kind of a joint effort between them and dad to compile quality hand-made stuff they can use when they have their own home. As for cash, I got married with no debt & $2k in cash savings. It (and all gift money) was instantly swallowed by my wife's debt from past bad decisions. It was a factor I had to weigh in my mind before we married, I love my wife, but it is a lot more work to try to pay off the debt she incurred before we met. A girl with money in savings will be more appealing than one in debt all other things being equal.
I also wanted to comment on what people have been saying about going with people they aren't interested in. Neither my wife nor I were remotely interested in each other when we met. She was "old" (6 years+) and while she was kinda pretty she had recently lost 80+ pounds and it showed (for the record, prior to marriage I had time to work out daily, run, bike, swim, lift weights, and train in martial arts. So there was a physical disparity). She thought I was arrogant,my hair was too long, and liked my best friend better. But after my friend (who was actually closer to her age at 25) started dating a younger girl and I cut my hair she kept hanging around our group at church because she needed friends. She lost more weight, and we both got to know each other beyond the surface level and appreciate each other. Now we are very happily married. So initial interest isn't everything, and sometimes you do have to make changes. I recommend at least considering (you don't even have to tell them you are) every person of the opposite gender and the same faith. Just bear in mind that the longer you wait it does get harder, and be careful with money because it can scare people away. And yes, life eventually gets busy, so make the most of the free time you have, and carve out more if you need it.
66. farmer Tom said the following at 12:06 PM on Jan 9:
Eliza said,
Farmer Tom,
I wonder why you're so emotional about this. Both your tone and the voraciousness with which you defend your position hints at more than just an intellectual opinion. I can only think that either you feel like you are extremely superior to all the women around you, or you yourself feel inferior because you've been rejected.
First about tone. I have been and always will be blunt. I dislike strongly, politicians, preachers and anyone else who uses flowery speech, big words and smooth talk to say things so that people would enjoy hearing them. I believe strongly in letting my yes, be yes and my no, no. Maybe, kinda like, I feel, are all less than honest ways of saying things.
No I do not feel superior. I'm a poor, fat(at least overweight) happily married father of 4, and I'm concerned about the generation of losers that are potential mates for my children. And yes I have been rejected by the best, one girl, who is now a friend used the, "I have to stay home and wash my hair" line on me one time. I asked her out at least a dozen times. Years later her father asked me how come I had never asked her out. I laughed in his face. "Is that what she said". He said, "No, I just know she liked you and I figured you never dated because you never asked."
Truth was, I appeared desperate because I was, and so I was placed in a position of fill in when nobody else asked. If she didn't have a date then I would get a call wanting to know if I wanted to do something that night. She was a user. I moved on, dated a series of losers and when I found someone and got married, she suddenly began to wish she had not treated me so callously.
She married a friend of mine and they're very happy, but she missed out on me because she was treating me as a backup until she found something better.
And that's what I've been trying to communicate to some of you. I'll bet more than one of you have rejected the advances of Godly young men because he wasn't Mr. Perfect. And the opportunity cost of rejecting him may later prove to be extremely high, as in, life as a single unmarried childless woman.
Again, I'm happily married, I want to see others achieve that as well. Focusing on a career is not going to help you reach the happily married destination.
67. Jeffrey said the following at 1:30 PM on Jan 9:
Tim, you write:
"Even worse would be the trend to reject any guy that shows "too much" interest. Since obviously she is out of his league and he knows it, hence the desperation on his part, clearly she could get a better guy and can't afford to "settle" for him. (He just isn't "God's best") Probably why they never get over guys who won't commit. If the guy is leery of her, then he must be really good, and if she can somehow trick him, She wins. He represents the best catch possible. Not a thought is given to he total lack of security and permanency in that arrangement. He has high social status!"
This has been my experience as well. No doubt this is a big reason why guys 'won't pursue with intention', because doing so in many circles will buy you a one way ticket to Friendsland.
In truth, it takes a considerable amount of will (and defiance) to buck the trend of passivity that most men are encouraged to follow. Yet, I can't help but think this may be one of God's mysterious ways of pruning one generation to be stronger and more confirmed in the practice of righteousness ultimately. At least, that is how I try to look at it.
68. kman said the following at 2:25 PM on Jan 9:
>For instance, if I am black and only >white women are considered beautiful >in this society, I can't just FIX IT >as you suggest. Whether you >acknowledge it >or not, some women >are left out even >when they are in >their "prime" so to >speak. NOW >ADDRESS THAT!
Fortunately you don't live in such a >society. We can come up with all kinds of possibilities. What if girls with 6 toes were the most sought after, or one eye or 5ft tall or less or....
Take a good look around when you're out. You will see people married to other people that you wonder how in the world did THAT person ever marry THAT person? (I am sure others say this about me as well. Not my wife though she's a doll ;) )
>Women who are outside the "normal" >standard of beauty in this country >are the losers because men decide who they ask out.
And we can say that men who are outside the "normal" standard of attractiveness in this country are the losers because they get rejected by the women they do ask out. The difference being they put much more effort into the whole rejection process. LOL
tgify2001, I don't know you, but I do know God has given you gifts and opportunities. He's given you attractive qualities and talents. Love is not one size fits all. It doesn't hurt for anyone to work on making themselves attractive(both sexes) and in more than just physically.
I've been married for 10+ years and I'm still working on myself in many ways! I know my wife appreciates that!
69. a sassy sister said the following at 2:30 PM on Jan 9:
Jeffrey, please clarify what you in mean in regards to the "practice of righteousness." Do you mean spiritual discipline and godly living? If so, that pruning is something that can happen to ANY person that submits themselves to God, regardless of what generation they're in.....
70. Rebekah said the following at 3:08 PM on Jan 9:
Tim,
I have to speak up for the women doctors. It's true, a fair number of my classmates are dating each other or are have already married fellow med students or residents. However, another portion - the portion of them with families - have married men who are supporting them while they are in medical school with jobs, that from your post would seem to be "lesser" than theirs. However, these men are the ones who do a lot of the Mr. Mom stuff and are great husbands. These women also are the ones the least stressed out.
A little while ago, I found an engineer that I was interested in. We thought of making a go of it, but he wants to get a masters in engineer and that will take him about 1000 miles away from here, so we decided not date. Again, his occupation would seem "lesser" than mine to some. But I think that a non-doctor would be the best mate for a doctor because then the doctor doesn't always feel at work or have to talk about work.
Not all women try to marry up.
71. dana111 said the following at 4:42 PM on Jan 9:
Not to sound bitter, but I agree with tgify2001 about current beauty standards. As a black woman, I know that there are some men of all races who prefer white women because, historically, white women have been portrayed as the most feminine and desirable. So, there is truth to her statement. However, I know several black women, hispanic women, women with disabilities, "overweight" women, and other women who may defy the stereotypical view of "what is beautiful" who are in great marriages with men who love them for who they are. So, it is possible. A quote from a popular single writer that I like is "You don't need all men, all you need is one good one." So, a woman may not appeal to all men, not even to most men, but I do believe that all women can attract a man who loves them irrespective of what they look like. That being said, that is no excuse for laziness, but it is a reason to hope and not to assume all men submit to the narrowminded views of some.
Also, I do appreciate Farmer Tom's bluntness and willingness to be honest, even when he is rallied against, and he is rallied against alot on this site! I aspire to be the same way. Speaking in love does not always denote being soft and trying not to offend... that may be the problem with current ways of spreading the gospel of Christ and the cross. But that is a different post for a different day.
72. Adam T. said the following at 5:09 PM on Jan 9:
This thread is full of fantastic thoughts. A few comments:
justice,
Farmer Tom,
You are my e-Hero.
Likewise here, Tom. :)
DannieA,
I can see where this is true....let me ask another question...in the light of even Christian marriages falling victim to the 50% divorce rate...do you think women are also thinking about being able to support themselves if ever a time came where there was no man in the picture? Just a thought...
Some others here have made similar comments. Let me tell you something: young men don't realize that this is a concern for women. Interestingly enough, I've recently been discussing this sort of thing with a friend. I was shocked when she told me that she'd love to get married, but she feels she has to work as 'fire insurance', and that many other young women feel that way as well. It may sound 'well, duh!' to you, but most young men don't know about this; consequently, what you end up with is a situation where women (secretly!) would love to get married, but show no sign of it, and so they're frustrated because men aren't asking them out, and young men are frustrated because all the women seem career-oriented and uninterested in marriage.
I'd really, really like to see this issue start being widely addressed by all concerned parties, including the church (and including Boundless...?). So much of it stems from misunderstanding more than anything.
Loris:
I know three smart, godly, and stunningly beautiful young women who went all four years of college without a single date because they were never asked out.
I read stories like this all the time, and I've become skeptical of them. Lots of women complain that they don't get asked out when what they really mean is 'I don't get asked out by the guys I want to ask me out.' Moreover, did these women show any interest in becoming married? I very much agree with the guys who've mentioned how women in their twenties display almost zero interest in marriage and family. And yet they wonder why they're not being asked out? Put two and two together, ladies.
Some of you want careers. That's fine, and I'm not going try and dash your hopes by telling you there are no men interested in career women. There are, and I hope you'll find one. I, and others, are telling you the odds, though: if you look like you ain't interested in family, then that's what young, family-oriented Christian men are going to assume.
tgify2001:
Perhaps men are single because they were too picky in only asking out the skinny, blonde, young women that reject the over and over again. Perhaps they ignored the homely girl with a few extra pounds that would have been a perfect mate for them.
Can any men address this?????
Yes, of course that happens, tgif, and it's not fair, either. I happen to think Farmer Tom is still right, though, that the power ultimately resides with women, for the reason he gave.
Let me tell you something else, as an FYI: I personally asked out a girl who was less than 'stunning' because she was the only girl I had ever met who made it clear that she took joy in the idea of having a family - something I found (and find) extremely attractive.
73. Tami said the following at 5:53 PM on Jan 9:
Adam T., I concur with what your friend told you. Most of us women feel (and have) the need to work. We've also learned that many men run screaming if you mention marriage or children, and balk at the idea that a date is actually, you know, a *date* (=enjoying each other's company while evaluating suitability for marriage). So it's not likely that one's deep yearning for married life (often a very sensitive topic) will come up for discussion too quickly... unless the guy brings it up in some sort of favorable light (e.g. "I really admire John and Mary's marriage. They're so supportive of one another. Don't you agree?" -- but not by asking "How many kids do you see yourself having?" on the first date... that's a bit too soon, especially if you don't know each other all that well! Also makes the date feel like a job interview).
So we're sort of stuck (if you want to put it that way). We need a career because... well, we need to live. And we've become gunshy about mentioning marriage because we don't want the next dude to go running like the previous one did. So we talk about our careers, because they're interesting to us, and sort of neutral conversation fodder.
What "signs" would indicate *to you* that a working woman is clearly interested in marriage? How could she do this without creating the impression that she's overeager or desperate?
(PS I hope you didn't let that girl know you found her less than stunning. We're realistic about our appearance, but still, no girl wants to hear, "Yeah, I guess you look OK." :)
74. Childless single woman said the following at 5:54 PM on Jan 9:
Farmer Tom - Your previous post infuriated me.
You seem to oppose the idea that we should "force men to date the women they aren't interested in" yet you seem to imply that women should just date (and marry!) any man who approaches them who happens to fit just two criteria:
a) A Christian
b) Has a pulse.
Really? Is that what you think? I wonder if you have daughters? If so, would you encourage them to marry the first man who asks them? And if they don't feel the least bit attracted to him, and if he is not their equal in any area whatsoever, well, "too bad, kid, it may be the one and only chance you get!" You would really want that kind of marriage for your daughters?
With regard to "fixing" things, well, I agree that we should all try to make the best of ourselves in every way we can. But there is such a thing as parity. Most men are not superman, and most women are not supermodels. But parity can be found at levels on any scale.
What is good about your post is that you discourage the non-Biblical "wait on the Lord for your husband and if you become barren whilst waiting, then remember Sarah who gave birth at 90!" kind of nonsense. There is a best time for both males and females to get married, and that is in their youth.
But the manner in which you speak of God's precious daughters is simply outrageous. And the fact that it hasn't caused more outrage is seriously alarming!
Again, you miss the point, and appear to live on a different planet to the rest of us.
The simple matter is not that women are too career-orientated, not that women are too fat, too ugly, too spiritual, not spiritual enough, or any other accusation you might like to throw at them.
The problem is that women have got the idea that they must only look for a believing man who goes to church. Nothing wrong with that -- it's what all Christian women want -- but the simple matter is that there simply are not enough men in our churches to go around. As if that wasn't enough of a problem, even the single men that are there, are all too often effectively discouraged from purposefully seeking a wife because they too have picked up the idea that you should "wait on the Lord" to bring your spouse to you, and that you are trying to get ahead of "God's will" if you dare to take any action towards getting married.
We can pick faults in women from here to eternity (and given that none of us is perfect, there will always be something we can point the finger at to exclaim triumphantly, "Aha! That's the reason you are still single! You need to work on a, b, or c, before God could possibly deem you ready to be a wife!")
No, it's simply a matter of mathematics and bad theology.
And an undercurrent of misogyny that makes it okay to speak of God's daughters in the way you have, and yet, incredibly, be referred to as heroic?
Nope, you're not heroic. You're a coward because you choose weak targets instead of being truly heroic and challenging MEN! (Including why male church leaders have allowed the church to become so feminised. But then, you probably blame women for that too, don't you?)
75. Kellie said the following at 6:18 PM on Jan 9:
Adam T.,
Just because you haven't observed something doesn't mean it isn't true. I know a few girls in their mid-twenties who would very much like to be married and have yet to be asked out.
76. ptschett said the following at 6:47 PM on Jan 9:
This thread and the other similar active ones have me wondering what a "Not Enough Women To Go Around" article would look like, i.e. what us single guys can do to overcome the statistics that turn out to actually be against us. I'm thinking about returning to my family's farm in the next few years (i.e. while I have the opportunity) and it's nigh-impossible to move that kind of career to look for a wife.
77. Mike Theemling said the following at 10:08 PM on Jan 9:
It's good to see the exchange even though it's clear there are some strong feelings on both sides of the coin.
A few comments I'd like to address though:
"For instance, if I am black and only white women are considered beautiful in this society, I can't just FIX IT as you suggest."
I agree this is a raw deal. Furthermore, it's very true. At least in this country, about 75% of all Black/White marriages involves a Black man and a White woman. Black women aren't as sought after as other races. But the same could also be said for Asian men (according to the article). The only thing I have to respond to that is that we just have to accept it and work with the hand we've been dealt. Not only for race, but for disabilities, chronic illness, etc. Dana111's comment rings true. You can't attract all men, or even most men, but one can do things to make oneself attractive to at least some men. And it's then just up to trusting God after we've done all we've can.
"I know three smart, godly, and stunningly beautiful young women who went all four years of college without a single date because they were never asked out."
Ok. I have a REALLY hard time believing this. In fact, I just DON'T believe it, period. If indeed they were "stunningly beautiful" I can guarentee they would be asked out unless they went to a predominately female college. Sorry, I'm not buying it. As I and other's have said, it could be that these ladies really meant, "No one I AM INTERESTED IN is asking me out". Or it could be they keep a facade/aura of "I'm not interested in dating so don't even bother trying". Take any single late teen/early 20's woman who is "stunningly beautiful", throw her into a single's group, and you will see guys definitely trying to catch her attention.
"What I'm trying to say is that, I can't imagine how I'd find time to get married and be a good wife while learning to be a doctor. I do hope that one day, in the next 10 years, I'll have found a way to balance these two desires, but right now I'm perfectly happy pursuing my career alone."
The fundamental "problem" I believe is that women in their early-mid 20's (in Western culture at least) do not feel a sufficient desire to get married that overrides other desires such as that for independence, career, "finding God's will", etc. Plus of course there's always that concept of "divorce insurance" which although is a valid concern, I think is often too used as a convenient alibi.
But as Danielle Crittenden's article states (I implore you to read it before commenting) most women do not feel a need to rush into any serious relationship because A) There's too much they want to do first and/or B) They garner enough interest to lull them into thinking that they can jump into something serious at any time.
Ladies, answer this question honestly for yourselves: "Are you unequivocately, undeniably sure that God wants you to remain single for the rest of your life?" Unless the answer is a sure and fast 'Yes' I would seriously consider the following FACTS:
- Almost all men marry YOUNGER women (which means for every year you get older that's more and more men you are essentially alienating from initiating with you)
- Fertility in women starts to dramatically decrease starting at around age 30.
- At just about ANY dating site the number of women who are seeking serious relationships is directly proportional to age (those 30+ are more eager to get married, and guess what?--They are often overlooked by most men their age. This includes Christian men.)
- The desire for marriage often doesn't diminish with time (in fact it often increases).
Although I hate the term "commodity" and "limited shelf life" the point is that your best chances of getting married to someone without "baggage" is before age 30. If you are comfortable with that risk, by all means, climb that corporate ladder, earn that PhD, MD, or other acronym (Honestly, I'm not the type who feels women should be restricted to being "at home"). My point (and Crittenden and others would agree with me) is that most women DON'T understand the risks until it's too late and they are at a serious disadvantage.
Can God work with women who don't start thinking seriously about marriage until later in life? Absolutely! But like I posted earlier, we have to be careful not to be presumptuous that just because God CAN do something means He WILL do something.
Finally, to be clear, I'm not a fan of "turning back the clock" (with regards to daughters perpetually living with parents, dowrys, etc). There's no guarentee that it would work because it's also dependent upon the attitudes and actions of men. I doubt most men would subscribe to the "gatekeeper" scrutiny of family (e.g. not being able to even see a girl without permission from her father), or the willingness to give up his "toys" for the sake of saving more for future family expenses. We live in the society we do and have to work with it, both men and women. But I do believe though that the trend towards a higher mean age of marriage is not a good one, and that we can and should do better. I am a firm believer that good marriages encourage maturity (being married alone does not make one mature) and brings stability into the lives of couples and the community.
78. Thea said the following at 10:36 PM on Jan 9:
My husband was 33 when we married, I was 26. We joke that he robbed the cradle, but I stole from the grave.
Back in the day, we talked about "careerism" and how an off balance approach to a job could affect your life. It was a problem more about men, who had to find their "margin" and leave enough energy to raise their families and love their wives instead of spending all of it at work. Women also need to balance professional and personal lives, but I think it's harder for most women as they are less inclined to compartmentalize like men do.
When I was in my twenties, it was possible to work all day for eight to ten hours then go to my next job. I rarely had a day off or a vacation but I went out a lot with friends, both male and female. I am now in my 40's and I look back with amazement. How did I do that?
Part of the problem of being single beyond the age of 30 is that energy issue. It just makes it harder to go out and see people. Or put up with dating. My older single friends just don't tolerate another waste of an evening with someone they think won't work out right away.
My husband spent most of his single years living with roommates. I did, too even after college. It solved a lot of problems having a community under one roof. You could entertain without having to do all the work. You meet friends of friends. My roommates and I also visited other roommates who lived together. And we shared chores, sometimes cooked for each other, and helped each other out if our cars didn't work. And listened to each other's problems.
Having your own place as a single is great, but even with the hassles, a community of believers in Christ can work out if you are prepared and work out the boundary issues.
79. Mary said the following at 10:46 PM on Jan 9:
Candice, I too, have been a cult follower of Boundless and your writings in particular and I think you bring up many legitimate points. I do have a problem with the premise of this blog though. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that women as a whole are intentionally denying or moving away from love. Deep down inside, I think every woman has a desire to be pursued and loved in a marital relationship but for various reasons, (circumstances, societal pressures, lack of opportunity) some feel that they should focus on careers, albeit temporarily.
That said, I think that one cannot make a blanket statement about women or especially why single women are single. This topic needs to be balanced. The focus is on these female prototypes that are rejecting men right and left, but are failing to recognize all the women on the other extreme that are so man-hungry and are going to college just to get a 'ring by spring' or their MRS degree. Either extreme is not very realistic nor is it healthy.
I don't think this is a black-and-white issue. (i.e. Women should not pursue careers, focus on dowries, etc)I think that our focus should lie strictly in following God's specific plan for our lives regardless of gender. I firmly believe that God is a matchmaker and the important thing is to walk in obedience to His voice and in His timing, He will position your path to cross with your significant other.
Also, ladies, I think it is extremely important NOT to settle for just anyone - remember, good can be the enemy of best - the goal is not to get married to just anyone, but to the specific one God has chosen for you.
On a personal note, I'm 23 and just recently engaged to the most amazing man ever -- I went to college for a couple years and was working full-time when I met him. We're getting married this spring and though we want children, I still plan to finish my education and work in the future.
80. Marci said the following at 7:17 AM on Jan 10:
Farmer Tom,
While I don't agree with all of your points (some great, some I'm not sure about), I'm thankful that you were blunt regarding the importance of women maintaining their appearance. Being a black woman, I do realize that there are racial factors that are relevant to this discussion; however, on the whole, I think it's important for women to take a good look at their physical upkeep.
For instance, I have several friends who work out, eat healthy, and carefully attire themselves - and to be honest, they seldom lack male attention. They are mostly engaged to be married or in a relationship that's seriously leading towards marriage. Women, it is not enough to be present in areas where eligible Christian men are; you need to attire yourselves in a flattering manner.
I think a common misconception is that looking good boils down to how much money you have to purchase stylish clothes. But there are many creative ways for women to look attractive (I'm in a PhD program and on a student budget, I've always put careful thought into my appearance). For instance, sit down and really think about whether the makes of your shirts, pants, skirts, dresses are attractive on your figure. Go through your closet and actually try your clothes on - get help from a friend if need be. Any clothes that are ill fitting, and aren't flattering on you because of their color/your body type go to Salvation Army, Goodwill, or a missions barel overseas.
Figure out the best colors for your skin, and only purchase clothing that is good quality (there's no point of changing your attire every season; this becomes costly and drains a limited budget - I'll buy just a few new peices for a season if any). Go for classic, flattering peices.
While I purchase earings ocassionally, I've been known to buy pretty, slender ribbon (so inexpensive!) from Fabric stores for a necklace. I'll use the ribbon alone (I like ribbon tied on like a choker) or I'll attach something simple to it like a small broach or pendant. I'm a fan of cheerful colours (I'll only have on one bright color or item at a time, though, so the look is still streamlined yet interesting), and every time I go out with one of these 'necklaces' people will be in the process of asking where I got it and are pleasantly surprised that I made it, and want to know where I bought the ribbon.
Ribbons/ fabric are also great as scarves, belts, and a host of other things. But the point is that if you buy some classic peices, wear flattering colors, and are creative, you can look really sharp and enhance your best features.
Looks do matter, but there's no need to break the bank.
Blessings
81. Erica said the following at 8:31 AM on Jan 10:
Hi everyone, Can I ask a question? What about those women who married at 18 years old and at 29 feel unfulfilled and boring. These women have husband, children and yet are unhappy. These women never seek a career after high school and are sad and miserable by 30 years. They realized that they need more out of life. I know a lady who got marry in her early twenties and by 36 years old, she start doing courses at a local college. One day I asked her what does being at home feels like. She said it's boring.
A lot of single women feel like a magic wand will be waved at them when they are married and they will be happy. Marriage involves responsibilities, taking care of yourselves, children and husband. These responsiblities will take a toll on you and your time. You can no longer sleep until 9 a.m. on a public holiday or week end as you have get up early to care for your family. By the way I am married.
Farmer Tom, not every woman are happy to give up their career and stay home when children are born. Women who do this, said they missed getting dressed up and go to work, they missed interacting with adults, they missed the feel of accomplishment on completing projects and they are angry to be home with a screaming baby. Also, most of the other women in the neighbourhood has returned to work.
82. The G said the following at 8:34 AM on Jan 10:
Rock on, Farmer Tom.
Your kids are blessed to have a dad who's not afraid to tell it straight.
I have a question, if you feel like answering a friendly inquiry: what course of action do you suggest for a girl who is interested in marriage and family, but is not ready (by her own admission as well as her parents')?
Imagine a 20-yr old who occasionally gets attention, but from guys of different religions, or dudes who are lax in their approach to faith outside of church settings.
Would it be advisable to still appear interested in marriage -would it even be advisable to try to appear attractive?
There’s a conflict with not wanting to repel eligible young men, but if the girl isn’t available anyway, what would you advise?
83. J. said the following at 11:04 AM on Jan 10:
Single womens' having careers is not only about having money to support themselves, but about health insurance coverage (at least, in the US). Most children are dropped from their parents' insurance policies by the time they turn 23. And good, comprehensive individual health insurance policies tend to be expensive; as such, many parents are unwilling or unable to provide this kind of support for their children.
Farmer Tom, what if one of your daughters -- without any kind of career training because you don't believe in it -- lost her husband at the age of, say, 38, when she was "past her prime" (your words, as I recall) and you couldn't remarry her off easily? Would you shoulder the burden of insuring your daughter and grandchildren and covering all their other expenses, or would you encourage your daughter to begin some kind of career training so she could eventually find a job with decent wages/salary so she could support her family? I certainly wouldn't wish any of this on your family, but the reality is that this does happen to people. Women with college educations / career training who find themselves in the kind of situation I have described, whether they eventually became stay-at-home moms or continued to work, are often able to bounce back much more easily.
84. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:06 PM on Jan 10:
J.,
Your question to farmer Tom regarding a woman at age 38 losing her husband is exactly why we have life insurance: to replace lost income that a husband (or other breadwinner) would provide.
85. Louise said the following at 12:21 PM on Jan 10:
Mr. Theemling, in many cases life insurance would be a good start, but insuffient to last several years.
86. Mike Theemling said the following at 12:26 PM on Jan 10:
Louise,
Of course life insurance isn't designed to replace a person's standard of living/income until retirement, but it should provide enough to last a good 2-3 years which is more than enough time to assess the situation and the time/means to get a job, go back to school, etc.
87. J. said the following at 12:27 PM on Jan 10:
Mike, I am very familiar with life insurance and how it works. But many people do not have it in face amounts that can cover remaining family members for, say, 10+ years. I think my original question to Farmer Tom was worth asking.
88. Emily said the following at 2:53 PM on Jan 10:
When I thought about becoming a physical therapist, my mom graciously arranged for me to visit a physical therapist and to get an idea about her work day. After that day, I decided not to become a PT.
If women are interested in becoming domestic engineers, why not hang out with a girlfriend who is a domestic engineer? I'm sure they would love the company and could use your help.
All humor aside, I still think that it is practical for members of both genders to learn a trade/profession. Like others have highlighted in previous posts, you never know when you may need to find a job that provides supplemental income in order to afford the basics in life.
I am pursuing a master's degree and working part time. I have had a job, since I was fifteen. I like working, but it isn't my life. I regard homemaking very highly and would like to eventually be a homemaker myself.
But truthfully, I don't think that leaving the workplace and becoming a homemaker will save you from life's troubles. I urge those who are using work as a place to merely spend time before getting married to think of how God would like them to be used in the present. It is all about perspective.
89. farmer Tom said the following at 6:47 PM on Jan 10:
Erica,
What about those women who married at 18 years old and at 29 feel unfulfilled and boring.
I have been honest, maybe brutally honest in questions addressed to me. And this post has my name in it. So I'm going to be honest again, and I expect the fur to fly from my answer, but my experience says,
Her husband had better consult a lawyer and begin to protect his assets and his children.
This woman has a serious problem, one that we all face, but her case is obvious,
She has confused who she is, with what she does.
She feels unfulfilled as a house wife, guess what, chances are very high she will feel unfulfilled as a career woman. Then she will began to feel unfulfilled in her marriage. Then comes an affair at work, divorce and several guys who make her feel fulfilled, till they dump her for a younger model.
Now that is an extreme statement, I know that, but I personally have seen that pattern before. Not once or twice but more that a half dozen times. A woman trying to find fulfillment in being a housewife, having a career, having an affair, divorcing her husband, maybe dabbling in some same sex behavior is lost. She assumes that what she does, equates to personal worth.
Ladies, unless you find your personal worth in your relationship with Jesus Christ. Unless you believe, and practice that God has a plan for your life. And that plan most likely includes marriage and family. You will wind up attempting to find your worth in what you do rather than who you are. If you know Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, your value as a person is not based on what you do, rather your position in Christ.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Again, I've personally witnessed this scenario before, the women start out trying to find self worth in some way involving what they do, while failing to see that self worth comes from a relationship with Jesus Christ.
90. farmer Tom said the following at 7:00 PM on Jan 10:
The G
what course of action do you suggest for a girl who is interested in marriage and family, but is not ready (by her own admission as well as her parents')?
My first question would be why? Why are you not ready? Are you admitting that you are 20 years old yet are still immature? Why?
I believe our culture is failing young adults with the concept of extended adolescence. You should be acting like an adult already. What are you waiting for? Some little genie to wave a magic wand? Grow up, be an adult.
Please don't be offended, this is not personal. I see society in general acting as though it is normal for 22 23 26 or 27 even 35 year olds living a lifestyle as if life is just a big party until they decide to be an adult.
91. farmer Tom said the following at 7:18 PM on Jan 10:
J.
A good question.
what if one of your daughters -- without any kind of career training because you don't believe in it -- lost her husband at the age of, say, 38, when she was "past her prime" (your words, as I recall) and you couldn't remarry her off easily? Would you shoulder the burden of insuring your daughter and grandchildren and covering all their other expenses, or would you encourage your daughter to begin some kind of career training so she could eventually find a job with decent wages/salary so she could support her family?
First, as someone commented, that's what life insurance is for. And yes I know that most people do not have enough life insurance. But, some is better than none, and it would help until she is able to find a better income/job.
Second, this is exactly what a dowry is all about. By parents helping their children purchase a home, have an emergency fund to help in case of the worst happening. Dowries are not for buying a bigger boat, a 72 inch flat screen, a Humve for a second car, and a vacation house at the lake. Dowries were to help secure the future of the daughter who is raising the grandchildren. Family should take care of family.
And that's my last point. We had something very similar to your scenario in our extended family. Between life insurance and some help from family, mom is able to take care of her kids without taking an outside job. Family takes care of family. The family is the first institution God ordained, when crisis comes the family is to take care of family. Then the church should help out.
Now I was very vague there, but that is a actual event that happened within our extended family.
Now it may be that mom may have to go to work. But assuming that mom ought to have a college degree because of a worst case scenario assumes that the education is worth more than a good dowry. I highly doubt it.
92. Andrew Riggs said the following at 9:42 AM on Jan 11:
"Someone asked earlier how a family oriented single working 50-60 hrs/wk can find time for romance. The answer is they can't, and that's their choice, but they should stop thinking of themselves as family focused. It is clear that work is their priority."
Going into the hospitality business after I graduate those are the hours I'm looking at. I can't help that, that's just how it is. I do want a family, I must also work those hours. How is it I can't be family minded and work those hours? I know many people with 50+ hour work week who have great family time.
93. Tami said the following at 10:11 AM on Jan 11:
Farmer Tom, the latter portion of your response to Erica (re: confusing who we are with what we do) is a good reminder for us all, no matter where we're at. Thanks.
94. Louise said the following at 10:39 AM on Jan 11:
Farmer tom, you have a definite right to your opinion and probably do have some worthwhile ideas, but you have a marked tendency to make sweeping generalizations about people.
It isn't a very attractive habit and I'm sure it has turned off a lot of people, to the extent that they are less likely to seriously consider your opinions.
95. Louise said the following at 11:31 AM on Jan 11:
To repeat an earlier question, would anyone on here other than farmer Tom seriously consider providing a daughter with a dowry?
96. Christina said the following at 12:19 PM on Jan 11:
A dowry meaning a nest egg for my daughter to get started on as a gift from her parents on her wedding day, sure :)
The "nest egg" is really a more "modern" (modern being that it was coined in the 50's and 60's >.<) dowry - save up your money to use for when you get married. Living with parents prior to marriage makes saving that "nest egg" a LOT more practical, as the cost of living is considerably less. (I think we discussed singles living alone vs with others being more expensive in an environmental post?) So...if my parents are saving money on my paying for my college education with student loans and my not living with them, then yeah...I'd think it'd be nice to have my parents supply a dowry.
97. Nicole said the following at 12:30 PM on Jan 11:
God takes us all down different paths. I just had a conversation with friend, who is 31, who expressed regrets at not pursuing the medical profession and becoming a Dr. It was her original intent in college. She changed her mind after graduating college with a pre-med degree. Why? Because she was "marrige minded" and thought that she wouldn't be able to get married/have a family while training to become a doctor. Now, almost 10 years later, she is still not married and deeply regrets not pursuing her passion.
For those who say that women somehow have this choice in pursuing marriage over a career - here is an example of someone who had done just that, yet still remains unmarried. She has done all of the things that some have suggested would land her a husband - getting involved, volunteering, etc. She is also very "domestically inclined". Maybe, it's just not God's plan for her to be married yet. How much "choice" do we really have? When is it God's will and when is it our choice? I would like to hear how exactly one proposes that a single, adult female who lives on her own chooses marriage over a career and still be able to pay bills. Where is this husband going to come from?
98. Lisa said the following at 12:32 PM on Jan 11:
Louise and others,
Yes, I would consider providing my daughter with a dowry IF she had someone she wished to marry AND I was satisfied that this man could provide for her, AND if I felt reasonably sure that the other set of inlaws were in agreement that if our children got into difficulty we were both committed to supporting them. However, I would also have a talk with the young man in question about the necessity of my daughter going to school and finishing a degree or other training at some point. If he was totally opposed to her getting any education or training beyond high school, I would probably counsel her not to marry him. The way our society is structured right now, in all likelihood one member of the couple is going to have to have a college degree. Traditionally, that has been the male, but I see nothing wrong with women getting whatever education or training they wish. I'm one of those people who believes that education is valuable, whether or not you ever "use" it for a job or career. Looking back on my life, I think possibly two years of college would have been enough for me, if I could have found someone to marry. That's the problem though. Rarely do our lives exactly follow the pattern that we might desire. Farmer Tom's plan assumes cooperation and support from the parents--and this is a big assumption. My parents, especially my mother, would NEVER have allowed me to go without a Bachelor's degree. My mother hated housewives and housework, and the fact that I am a stay-at-home Mom now is due to my own desire and perseverence in the face of great adversity.
99. Marci said the following at 12:46 PM on Jan 11:
Farmer Tom,
I must say I'm not convinced a dowry is a more practical solution than getting a college education. There are many families that cannot provide this kind of assistance, and the notion of a "dowry" comes with a whole host of other problems (ie, as in times past, when a woman became more attractive as a mate because of the potential wealth she could bring. I realize you're saying it should be for emergency situations, but I really think this concept can be easily abused).
As well, I think you're ignoring the fact that statistics have now proven that women *with college/University education* are now *more* likely to get married than women who don't go at all. Yes, you read correctly - it seems that many men appreciate it when a woman is educated (the reasons for this could make a fascinating post, but anyhow).
I think we need to stop thinking that a degree is incompatible with being a wife and mother. And I firmly support those posters who suggest that a woman who gets a degree is more equip to handle the case of a divorce or a husband who dies....OR even a husband who is present, but has an accident and becomes impaired somehow.
Yes, I have seen people be extreme and ignore the potential suitors because they assume that when they're ready for marriage (after they establish their career, etc) a man will drop down from heaven. Of course this thinking is foolish - but is this the fault of women becoming *educated*? Degree's are *not* the problem; some ideological hangovers from naive renderings of feminism are. This is yet another example of the fact that women are not men; we need to plan carefully (to the best of our abilities) if we'd like to get married.
At least, I'm glad that men are gravitating towards educated women in their choice of spouse; there was a time when women who had a degree were certainly less desirable to men as wives.
Blessings
100. Frank said the following at 6:02 PM on Jan 11:
(@ Nicole)
Two questions: (1) Which benefit would you rather have: having the MD or not having the MD? (2) Which problem would you rather have: having the MD or not having the MD?
It's easy to answer the first question; the MD is very prestigious indeed. But most people don't see how "not having the MD" might have better problems. Chasing the MD: It will very likely push back the timing of the first kid as well as introduce massive financial and time pressure. How many kids? When? Will mom be around for her kid's foundation years? Hard questions.
About your friend. It *really* sucks when you chase the less deterministic option (the Mrs) and don't succeed. There is the buyer's remorse; maybe I should have chased the more deterministic one (the MD). And you never had the chance to find out. Sigh.