Christian Guys Distinct from "Child-Men"?
by Steve Watters on 01/28/2008 at 8:25 AM
We often get grief whenever we talk about an article or stat documenting trends among young adults. Our readers often say it's not fair for us to assume that general trends are also true of the Christian sub-set of the population. And that, indeed, should be true. Christians are supposed to be different and various studies by Barna and other Christian researchers do prove that Christians don't neatly parallel a general audience -- although they've found the margin of distinction shrinking in recent years.
It was through this lens that I read an important new article by Kay Hymowitz in City Journal titled Child-Man in the Promised Land. This is not a flattering description of today's young men. Kay makes the point that the values of Maxim magazine that set the standard for so many men aren't even as refined as the values Playboy held out for earlier generations. A core observation appears halfway through the article:
We can argue endlessly about whether "masculinity" is natural or constructed—whether men are innately promiscuous, restless, and slobby, or socialized to be that way—but there's no denying the lesson of today's media marketplace: give young men a choice between serious drama on the one hand, and Victoria's Secret models, battling cyborgs, exploding toilets, and the NFL on the other, and it's the models, cyborgs, toilets, and football by a mile. For whatever reason, adolescence appears to be the young man's default state, proving what anthropologists have discovered in cultures everywhere: it is marriage and children that turn boys into men. Now that the SYM can put off family into the hazily distant future, he can—and will—try to stay a child-man. Yesterday's paterfamilias or Levittown dad may have sought to escape the duties of manhood through fantasies of adventures at sea, pinups, or sublimated war on the football field, but there was considerable social pressure for him to be a mensch. Not only is no one asking that today's twenty- or thirtysomething become a responsible husband and father—that is, grow up—but a freewheeling marketplace gives him everything that he needs to settle down in pig’s heaven indefinitely.
Getting back to your comments to us that Christian men shouldn't be judged by general observations, my preference is to believe there is a subset of Christian men who are living transformed lives distinguished from the single young men this article spotlights.
Is that your experience? Are you living/seeing distinctive lives from the "Child-Men" of this article?
1. J.T. said the following at 9:15 AM on Jan 28
I think that there is a fine line between acting like a real man and acting like a child-man. Although real men must spiritually act like a child. (i.e. And Jesus said, "unless you humble yourself and become like a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.") Now I realize that having a child-like faith is different from acting like a child, but I think we all need a youthful awe and amazment for the Kingdom of God. I also don't think we should judge just on the basis of action, but what is a man's heart like. I also see nothing wrong with a little bit of football and Mythbusters.
2. Adam T. said the following at 9:49 AM on Jan 28
Are you living/seeing distinctive lives from the "Child-Men" of this article?
I'm trying pretty hard to avoid 'extended adolescence'. I went through a period of it in my early twenties of which I'm now ashamed. You know, I wish I had been forced to grow up earlier.
My question is about role models. I wonder whether young men who a) are encouraged to grow up by their family/church/etc., and b) have positive fatherly role models are more likely to avoid a lot of this behaviour. I hope so.
Not to sound like a broken record - 'where are the parents?' - but this post got me to thinking about fathers that I know. Most of them are decent fathers, but not one of them really actively encourages his sons to become men. Instead, the fathers seem to just... go along... with whatever their sons seem to be doing. I wonder if there could be a solution here.
In any case, the City Journal article is dead on: if men don't have to grow up, they mostly won't.
3. a sassy sister said the following at 10:15 AM on Jan 28
Adam T you wrote:
If men don't have to grow up, they mostly won't.
The problem with that statement is that it simply does not merely apply to men. Immature people usually don't grow up until they choose to face their immaturity head on and take appropriate action to deal with it. The same goes for women. But for men and women, the reality is this: immaturity, at its core is based on ignorance and selfishness.
The question I would like to ask is this: What are churches doing to SUPPORT, PROMOTE, AND ENCOURAGE INDIVIDUAL MATURITY AND RESPONSIBLITY AMONG ITS MEMBERS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR SEX? Marriage and children do not magically or even gradually transform people into mature, responsible adults--that is a choice the individual must choose to make about the state of life they are in when they marry and have children. Marriage and children EXPOSE MATURITY AND RESPONSIBIILITY.
I guess my question for Steve is this:
Where are the articles for encouraging godly masculinity in the here and now, and not solely for the end goal of marriage and family(which, is not a pursuit when done for the right reasons). Growth in biblical mandhood does not start when one takes a wife and has children. It starts the second a boy receives the gift of salvation through Christ.
4. TJ said the following at 10:24 AM on Jan 28
I have attended 3 different churches in the past 2 years, and what I have seen of my fellow Christian single men in their twenties has been pathetic. Maybe if I wanted to hang out with 15 year old boys it would be fun, but being around these guys who are in their 20's is a lesson in frustration. Sure, it's fun to joke around a little bit, but not 100% of the time! And when I try and steer the conversation to something deeper and more mature, eyes glaze over and everyone seems to sink into a stupor. I have to admit that I see far more mature men in my college classes who are not followers of Christ by any stretch, then at the Bible believing churches I've been to.
A Christian sub-culture in the U.S. there may be, but in this context, I fear that these men have conformed to the main culture, rather than letting themselves be transformed by the power of God.
5. Justin said the following at 10:58 AM on Jan 28
You know, I get that this is a Focus on the Family blog. So I understand why you want to encourage men to pursue marriage.
But if feels like you're browbeating guys into getting married. I gotta say, it's not very persuasive, and usually leaves me looking for other blogs to read.
If marriage is so wonderful, then you should highlight the benefits of marriage and family, rather than mocking us for being single.
6. Athena said the following at 12:14 PM on Jan 28
Adding to J.T.'s thoughts:
I think it's all a matter of balance. To have child-like faith, but be careful to not have childish behavior rule your life. The two descriptions are distinctly different.
7. whs said the following at 12:52 PM on Jan 28
Adam, I have to agree with your assessment of the fathers of the previous generation. Most of the fathers I know including my own did not take to guiding their sons. Willing to bail me out of trouble, yes. Willing to teach me how to be a man, no.
8. Jason said the following at 2:10 PM on Jan 28
So the moral of the story is that in order to be an adult you have to "be serious" all the time?
I get that men in general aren't really men anymore, but to throw around some cookie-cutter generalization that "child-men" are the ones who enjoy football or Rambo-style movies is irresponsible and lazy. There are plenty of your "man-men" who skillfully hide their alcoholism, child/spousal abuse, porn addictions, even white-collar crimes, etc. behind this well-rehearsed veneer of a successful suburban family man.
IMHO, being an adult doesn't mean that you have to wax melodramatic. Some of the most well-rounded family men are some of the least serious cut-ups you will ever meet.
9. Eliza said the following at 2:59 PM on Jan 28
I'm so confused.
Are you saying that getting married and having children makes someone a real man? Because I know plenty of married men, and they're all equally interested in Victoria's Secret models, battling cyborgs, exploding toilets, and the NFL as single guys. Which would be to say that some are and some aren't.
And what is everyone's hang up with video games? I like them, and I'm a woman. Rather grown-up, if I do say so myself.
And I'm a big sports fan.
Again, I'm confused. Why do we keep discussing the alleged childishness of adults, other than for some people just to feel better about themselves? Real men are taking care of there own business rather than labeling others as "childish".
10. Tanya said the following at 3:09 PM on Jan 28
I think this article is really interesting. It speaks truth and reveals a side to our society no one really wants to take responsibility for.
I have met countless men who bask in their chance to remain adolescents. It's not easy to break free from this negative flow when, as the article states, "not only is no one asking that today's twenty- or thirtysomething become a responsible husband and father—that is, grow up—but a freewheeling marketplace gives him everything that he needs to settle down in pig’s heaven indefinitely". As said by a previous comment above mine-it's all about the urgency to change and who's gonna do it (role models, parents, teachers...).
Anyways, just agreeing with the article and hoping that someone will be proactive instead of perhaps reactive to the crisis we have on our hands. I think if all the child-men step up and become men then significant change will happen. Change that will have a ripple effect into the generations to come!
11. Kyle said the following at 3:28 PM on Jan 28
The bottom line is that people (both men and woment) like to stay in their comfort zones, and as long they aren't forced out of those comfort zones, they aren't likely to change anything. And the phase between immature, adolescent male and mature, adult male can be less than comfortable.
One thing though, I don't see why watching football has to be immature. I know plently of very mature men that love to watch football. What guy would actually choose serious drama over nfl?
12. Alfonse said the following at 3:56 PM on Jan 28
So you want me to grow up and get married huh? Let me tell you what marriage means to men in this day and age:
It means sacrificing long hours of work and investing time and money on someone who is going to leave you for something better.
It means giving up your autonomy just so you can look like the idiot token husbands on all the t.v. commercials.
It means giving of your money, time, and resources to "support the life style to which she is accustomed to" so later on she can get 50% of all you worked and will work for.
It means raising a child that may or not be yours.
And lets not forget the nagging, browbeating, and "I'm liberated cook your own food" attitude of today's woman.
Men don't want to get married because the liberalization of women have made it the worst choice a young men can make.
I see the way my friends get treated at home and the demands and sacrifices placed on them and it does not correlate with what they get back out of their relationships.
No thanks, I'll take my Nintendo over a nagging wife any day of the week.
Vince.
13. Adam T. said the following at 4:01 PM on Jan 28
I agree with you guys that of course football isn't immature per se; I think, though, that there's a distinction to be made between a healthy interest and a juvenile obsession. I think particularly of one guy I know whose passion for football reminds me of a teenager drooling over his favourite superstar.
a sassy sister,
The problem with that statement is that it simply does not merely apply to men.
I'm sure you're right. However, I only feel comfortable speaking for men (and even then, I can never speak for all men, of course). :)
14. Sarah said the following at 4:21 PM on Jan 28
I have not been reading this blog for long, so forgive me if this is something that has been hashed and rehashed already. A lot of the articles seem to point to marriage and a family as the sign of being mature. What never seems to come up is the other trend that I've seen out there, what have been dubbed 'starter marriages.' You know, the ones where the couple is married for a couple years and then divorce, many times before they have kids. {Yes, I know, they should be working on the marriages and not getting divorced.} I have a couple friends who were in this situation. To them, the next logical thing to do after high school or college was to get married. Maybe the mature decision in that situation would've been to wait until they were a few years older and more equipped to make such a life changing decision. Just a thought.
15. Sarah said the following at 4:23 PM on Jan 28
I'll take the SuperBowl over a Hallmark Hall of Fame movie any day of the week!
16. Al said the following at 6:57 PM on Jan 28
I think Kay Hymowitz confuses interests and taste with masculine maturity. There's nothing wrong with cyborgs. We will all be one someday. And I would argue that our general attraction to the female form and more aggressive and tactical pursuits like warfare and in a similar vein, football, are part of what makes us men. I have a hard time associating real masculinity with "real drama", even as much as I'm able to sometimes enjoy the latter.
I'll even argue that those interests we have as a child are often those that are meant to build us into men. The don't necessarily need to wane as we reach adulthood. We're fascinated with technology because some of us are meant to build the things that run the world. We're fascinated with sports and warfare because some of us are meant to develop teamwork, rely on one another, and ultimately fight battles and fires that might cost us our lives. And we're interested in beauty because we're meant to find our wives beautiful even as we so often fail to see it. The exploding toilets I have no explaination for. It just is.
However, where we men fail (myself included), is how we prioritize those interests and how we often neglect real matters of life and meaning and instead dive into those interests that Hymowitz finds base. But I could just as easily accuse a playwright penning "real drama" of not being a man if he neglects his family and children and responsibilities and instead dives into his more cerebral and refined fantasies.
She's right about men lacking passion in the things of meaning. And she's right about immaturity and lack of responsibility. But I think the fixation for the innane is a symptom of our commercialized culture, and that the basic elements behind some of those interests aren't necessarily childish-- they're just what men do when they're not committed to something bigger than themselves, and when it's wildly and easily available. Some other things she lists might actually be childish-- but I would rather argue that they're simply "stupid" and inappropriate even for children.
But in the end, I'm not sure I would like to be the sort of man Hymowitz imagines as ideal. I can talk a little Picasso and Nietzsche, and I like jazz and presumably sex. But I have the same child-like wonder when it comes to cosmology, quantum physics, cyborgs and videogames. My childish flaw is in lack of self-control, not my mere interest in the less refined things. As much as Horowitz is right about our state as men, she's just a bit off when she confuses refinement and being civilized with masculinity.
17. Peter said the following at 7:27 PM on Jan 28
I would suggest - cautiously, since my experience of church is limited to the Pentecostal strain - that there are several lines of thinking in the church that do not encourage maturity.
It seems forgotten or ignored that Jesus spoke about "coming" as little children, not as "remaining". While there is a point which we need to pass through as beginning Christians, this does not mean that we are not to mature. Remember also Jesus' response when questioned over his statement that "you must be born again". He was clearly speaking of a spiritual reality which does not translate directly into a physical reality. Given His willingness to speak in this manner, it behoves us to be cautious in applying his words on child-like-ness to our normal, everyday behaviour.
The doctrine of dependence upon God seems only to be taught in the context of our modern, nuclear family. In this family there are only two options, either a parent in control, or a child who is dependent. To a Jew of Jesus time, this would be an unfamiliar picture, as his cultural and historical "norm" is that of the tribe and the extended family. In this, the Patriarch (grandfather or great-grandfather) is the titular owner of the tribal or family lands and the ultimate decision-maker so that all of the families within his group are dependent on him for living-space and - in the sense that "his" family provide both - for food and protection. However this does NOT mean that the patriarch is involved in every chore, every minor decision or that he fights every battle personally . His tribe contains a number of sub-families and households, each of which is the responsibility of mature adults who make the decisions and do the work required. In this scenario a man is a responsible, working adult and this should be our ideal of a "mature" Christian. Not one whose ambition is limited to walking hand-in-hand with their parent, making no decisions and being spoon-fed whenever a need is identified.
I argue that we need to return to the picture of Adam for our definition of manhood. At his creation - and before the fall - God commanded Adam to tend, care for and guard his area of responsibility. This involves self-sacrifice in the areas of comfort (work is not comfortable), expenditure on energy in areas that do not please us, and personal risk. It is quite reasonable that this may still be expressed as the ability to expend sweat and blood for the sake of others. It must also be noted that when Adam faced his greatest test - the temptation of Eve - God was not there holding his hand. Adam had to take responsibility in the absence of his father. If God asked this of Adam, how can we expect to not have the same experience?
I also suggest that the emphasis on emotion in certain strands of Christian experience and ministry - the idea that worship is primarily an emotional expression, that our love for God is primarily an emotional relationship and that ministry revolves around certain principles of pop-psychology relating to emotional expression - do not promote maturity. One of the hallmarks of maturity - as opposed to immaturity - is the willingness and ability to exercise self-control. To do what we know is right and proper, rather that that which is emotionally pleasing. In our desire to teach men to "be in touch with their emotions", we seem to have taught them that self-control is not necessary.
Of course the church is not the only, or even the primary cause of male immaturity.... But do we have to follow the world's thinking so easily?
Peter
18. Patricia said the following at 7:32 PM on Jan 28
Alfonse-I hope you were talking in jest in your blog. Certainly you don't blame women's liberation for poor marriages. Actually, a recent study by an academic at Rutgers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2211069,00.html) showed that feminists had better marriages than women who didn't identify as feminists. While I agree with the sentiments of other posters that watching football, playing video games, etc, blaming women alone for bad marriages is immature and childish.
19. Jenny said the following at 8:01 PM on Jan 28
I knew a guy in college who had a reputation for dating girls and then breaking off the relationship once it started getting serious. The reason, I heard him say on several occasions, was that he never wanted to get married because he had seen what divorce did to his parents. He didn't want to do that to himself or his children. Now I know he was wrong for giving those girls false hopes, but there is a sad truth to what he was saying. He couldn't see the beauty of marriage done well because he had only seen the horrible ugliness of a marriage gone wrong.
Whether intentional or not, todays culture does everything it can to mold awful husbands. Feminists declare their superiority. Commercials tell men they will always be the dumb half of a couple. Magazines and movies encourage men to value women only in terms of exterior beauty or physical pleasure. If a guy is told he is unintelligent, he is inferior, he is not worthy of respect, and he should not love his wife like Christ loves the church, he has nothing to strive for. There is no exciting challenge to live up to, and be praised and respected for achieving. So he'll settle with mediocre.
But by far the worst enemy of a godly husband is a broken home. When a young boy doesn't see the loving mature relationship between his mother and father that he should, what model does he have? How can he see how a husband shows love to his wife? How can he see the joy and counsel a wife brings to her husband? How can he see what it is like to work together building a home, raising children, or working through conflict?
The posts above--the one from Vince, especially--break my heart to read. These young men have no physical examples of what a godly marriage looks like, so they understandably shun it. I was blessed to grow up with parents who loved each other and loved the Lord, and sought His wisdom in strengthening and growing their marriage. Their example is priceless. O that all men could have that blessing. Failed marriages are a downward spiral through generations. The only way to get back on track is to seek the Lord.
So my exhortation to young single men would be to trust what the Lord says in the Bible about marriage. A wife is a good thing. An excellent wife is worth far more than jewels. Children are a blessing from the Lord. Ask the Lord to lead you to a godly couple through church who can show you and counsel you in solid marriage principles. Don't be afraid.
And my exhortation to older, married men would be to seek the Lord in being the godly husband and father the Lord has called you to be. Give your children a precious living example of the two becoming one, for better or worse, for life. Give young men in your church something to long for and work towards. Be the earthly picture of God the Father and Christ the Husband.
20. Eldon Murray said the following at 8:02 PM on Jan 28
I just got married in June, and expecting our first in this coming June. I think one big thing I have noticed in myself is not so much that I do not enjoy video games (as a specific example, because I do still love them) but that I simply a) do not have the time for them anymore and b) find more important building into my marriage.
While I believe much of this comes from a conservative background with strong Christian parents and many Godly men surrounding me, when I had to make the decision to propose, I knew that, like dedicating my life to Christ, there would be more important things in my life that absolutely required my full attention. Some men do jump into marriage without realizing that the hard work is just beginning, but that so too does the joy and love increase. If I just kept on living like I had before, my marriage would already be on the rocks. Women take time and money. Once she is your wife, realize that she will take all your time until you have a child. Invest that time wisely and you will reap the benefits for the next 50+ years
21. Will Kearney said the following at 9:05 PM on Jan 28
The Scriptures say that it is better to live on the corner of a roof than with a quarrelsome wife...
However, honestly...most women aren't really that able to hide what they are. You really do kind of have to fool yourself into marrying a woman that you despise.
22. Steve Watters said the following at 9:14 PM on Jan 28
I get the sense that many of you were offended by something you found in the excerpt without reading through the actual article. I'd be curious how many of you would defend the lifestyles Hymowitz describes over the course of the article.
23. Adam D said the following at 9:28 PM on Jan 28
I will rise to the challenge. If I can find a low-maintenance, attractive young girl with a personality that I can enjoy talking with, then I gladly pursue marriage. Then, by keeping my sights on Jesus and the kingdom of Heaven, I will sacrifice for and love that woman as I love myself and hope to raise solid Christian children to carry on in this increasingly hostile world. I can be both serious and humorous, I know when to be either, and who doesn't enjoy a stimulating conversation on creation, Jesus, or world affairs?
Perhaps I am being naive, but I don't yet think that all women are just out for our money. I truly think that there are still plenty of mature women who love God more than the material things of this world. If I am wrong about that however, then the future truly is bleak and not really worth living for.
24. Paul said the following at 10:08 PM on Jan 28
okay, okay, I get it. I'm a kid until I get married... never mind my college degree, medical school acceptances, living with little or no spending money and the like.
Boundless, I usually love your articles, but honestly, these are getting old. Marriage does not always equal maturity not by a long shot. Let's try to be more unbiased here.
25. Amy P. said the following at 10:51 PM on Jan 28
Alfonse -
I want to be a bit gentle here, but your comment was a bit on the harsh side. It seems that your opinion of females is quite low.
I pray that God will open the eyes of your heart to realize that some women (not all women of course) can be a blessing to their husband edifying them and helping them. It seems as though you have a large number of unhappy married men in your life. I hope that you will seek some happily married men to help balance the perspective
Your statement: ***No thanks, I'll take my Nintendo over a nagging wife any day of the week.*** leads me to believe that you have not yet come to a place where you realize what a blessing a great Godly woman can really be and that men were not made to be alone...
26. Stanhope said the following at 10:57 PM on Jan 28
Faulty premise. Married doesn't mean mature any more than bald means smart. And mensch doesn't mean, nor has it ever meant, father or husband. It means, loosely translated from the Yiddish, a stand-up regular guy.
You might wanna stop trying to force-fit the entire world of Christian maleness into your hubby/daddy paradigm.
27. BDB said the following at 11:41 PM on Jan 28
>>What guy would actually choose serious drama over nfl? <<
The rich ones. I'm not making this up: the Discovery Channel does extensive demographic studies of its viewership, and they find that about 30% of men aren't very interested in watching sports on TV. They tend to be better-educated and with higher incomes. So an advertiser wanting to reach higher-income men needs to buy BOTH ESPN and Discovery to reach their target demographic: guys with cash. It's no accident that the Discovery Channel and Histry Channel are full of ads for expensive cars.
I know the Super Bowl must be coming up soon because my church just cancelled an evening service on that holiday.
But seriously, there is so much commercial fluff in football telecasts compared to 20 years ago it's amazing that there's any game left to watch. The broadcast fees are outrageous - hence the absurd ad content.
In any case, men will be as responsible as women demand, and probably no more. As long as women reward men for being irresponsible, don't expect anything to change.
28. BDB said the following at 11:58 PM on Jan 28
Whoa! Why is Kay slamming "The Transformers?" Other than some unfortunate (and uneeded) dialog with the kid's mom, the movie has an underlying theme of courage and self-sacrifice.
Though the writing of the orignal cartoon was probably better. It's the first cartoon I ever saw where the good guys had to clean up the rocket base after a shootout with the bad guys. Reminds me of my career...but it DOES pay much better when you can clean up other people's messes!
29. kman said the following at 8:17 AM on Jan 29
Alfonse/Vince
If that is your understanding of marriage, I can't blame you for not wanting to get married.
Fortunately that portrait of marriage isn't accurate. I'd very cautious of making determinations about marriage based on TV commercials as well, surely you don't run out to buy every product someone tells you that you need to be happy do you? So why even use commercials to make a decision about marriage?
Demands and sacrifices- hmm nasty words aren't they? Human beings should NEVER have demands and sacrifices placed on them *sarcasm* . I thank God that the generations before me made sacrifices and had demands on them! We ALL are recipients of other's sacrifices. Someone made MANY sacrifices to get you to the point where you are now. They carried you, gave birth to you, fed you, clothed you, wiped your bottom, sheltered you, taught you. Every bit of that was a sacrifice, they could have done other things with their time, money, and attention. Good thing someone thought sacrifices and demands weren't something to avoid but a way to better things.
30. Tami said the following at 10:03 AM on Jan 29
Adam D, define "low maintenance." :) I get what you're saying; just curious for your take.
There are some really insightful posts on here. Especially agreeing with Al's point -- it's not "refinement" *or* "loving football" that makes a man a man; it's his character and his priorities. I don't care for football, but that doesn't mean I couldn't love a good man who enjoys watching sports, or that I think all guys who watch sports are immature.
31. Fay said the following at 9:45 PM on Jan 29
I'm totally agree with you... In many ways I saw more child-men in their 20th or early 30th... But I can't say that the sample can represent the whole population (that most of men are child-men), because it's not objective. But it's true that I see more child-men that mature-men in my neighbourhood...
32. Alfonse said the following at 10:41 PM on Jan 29
KMan:
"Fortunately that portrait of marriage isn't accurate. I'd very cautious of making determinations about marriage based on TV commercials..."
I'll elaborate: I've been a traveling nurse for the past 7 years. I have worked 12 hour shifts, 3, 4, and sometimes 5 days a week, in many different hospitals, in many different cities.. How many women do you think I gotten to know and befriend? My post on the current state of women come from direct observations of the *HUNDREDS* of women I have worked with, the *HUNDREDS* of conversations I've been a part of, and my own life experience. What percent of all the women I've come across do you think are happy with their headbands? How many married women praise, or speak positively of their SO? How many women think their hubbies are a blessing or even a positive influence? How many women I've worked with do you think reject advances, improver conversation or behaviour that Christians would consider inappropriate?
*NOT MANY!*.
Yes, there are beautiful gems out there, mostly found in Christian girls, but alas, so few of them.
I'm sorry to say that *MOST* of the conversations I've been involved or overheard on the topic of relationships would make a married man think twice about marriage in general. I'm sorry if my observations strike a nerve with some people, but in my experience *THINGS IN THE WORLD ARE THAT BAD*, and I'm sorry to say, things are slightly better in church, not by much mind you, not by much.
Alfonse Vincente
P.S - In the case of the commercials, believe you me, is a case of art imitating life!
33. Trevor D said the following at 6:37 AM on Jan 30
Alfonse has a valid point: the legal marriage structures allow precisely what he describes, and it is an extremely common pattern (including amognst Christians). One comment my father made about this is "be careful who you marry", which is along the lines of Will Kearney's comment above.
Despite having had worse than Alfonse's scenario visited upon me, I'm still with Adam D because I believe God's plan for marriage is a good one, and His power is able to make it happen as I follow His will. Now all I need is the low-maintenace, attractive young girl with whom I can converse enjoyably :)
34. Adam D said the following at 7:09 AM on Jan 30
Tami,
By low-maintenance I mean a woman who doesn't spend all her money but saves it. A woman who doesn't have daddy's credit card. A woman who recognizes money as a way to survive but otherwise doesn't love it above most everything else, doesn't make an idol of it. That kind of sums it up, I could go on but I think you get the point.
35. Tami said the following at 9:15 AM on Jan 30
Thanks, Adam D. I've seen "low maintenance" used to mean everything from "she's laid back," to basically what you said, all the way to "requires me to do nothing and doesn't place any emotional weight on me, but is ready for me whenever I call or need something." (BTW I didn't think you meant the latter.)
36. Al said the following at 9:21 AM on Jan 30
Steve Watters said:
"I get the sense that many of you were offended by something you found in the excerpt without reading through the actual article. I'd be curious how many of you would defend the lifestyles Hymowitz describes over the course of the article."
I wouldn't say I was exactly "offended", but as one of those who took issue to her claims, I did actually read the article. Or at least read/skimmed through most of it. I thought her observations on lack of male responsibility accurate, but she too easily associates unrefinement in her eyes with immaturity-- that male immaturity *is* their interests, when it's really that males fixate on their interests without restraint when they are avoiding responsibility. Furthermore, the author isn't writing from a Christian world view. That's why she can pit Playboy against Maxim, and suggest that for Playboy's failings, at least it attempts to inject culture into its male reader, when Christians would find the philosphies espoused by both to be equally deplorable.
So I guess I'm critical of the article for what it *actually* says and how it phrases its arguments, even as I can nod to its big picture conclusions. I do admit the article struck a bit of a nerve in equating some of what she deems to be less refined male interests and tendencies automatically with immaturity. And even more purturbed when Hymowitz gives women delaying marriage to pursue their own materialistic interests and fun a nod and a pass in the other article, and even applauds those efforts as she issues her cautions.
The appearance of culture doesn't make irresponsibility and self-fixation defensible. It just makes it appear respectable, and in fact, futher compounds its allure and danger. Its this respectability that irresponsiblity and self-indulgence needed to hide behind until now. Hymowitz doesn't seem to acknowledge that. Instead, she levels her harshes critique on those elements and symptoms of irresponsibility that most differ from her more presumably refined tastes, but gives knowing smiles to those she can empathize with-- when both have roughly the same root cause even as they play out differently in the two genders.
37. xeres said the following at 3:10 PM on Jan 30
The problem also lies in the fact American culture doesn't have a rite a passage for men or women. Just read Into The Wild. While I thought Chris McCandless was out of this world, I can relate to his sense of adventure and wanting genuine transformation which a rite of passage provides. Luckily, I went through a rite of passage through a Debut celebration for Filipino girls who are turning 18.
38. Margaret said the following at 9:36 PM on Jan 30
To sort of change the subject, I just finished watching Disney's "The Jungle Book" (the old animated one) and it occurred to me that even though Mowgli spends the whole movie wandering through the jungle, refusing to go back to the "man-village" (even though it's necessary for his own safety), it's not until he meets the girl at the end that he decides to leave his familiar, carefree jungle life and re-join his own kind (and presumably go on to learn how to be a "man"). That final scene, with Baloo saying "come back" and Bagheera saying "go on" strikes me as particularly relevant. We live in a culture that has separated so many people from meaningful human relationships and provides countless opportunities to play, yet we still have an instinctive desire to connect with and be a part of a community of people "like us," and it is through finding these relationships we learn to leave playtime behind and grow up. One can even assume that through Bagheera's continued insistence that Mowgli needed to leave the jungle, and his willingness to let Mowgli find his own way out and grow through the troubles he encounters, Mowgli eventually finds his way out of the jungle of his childhood and into the village of his maturity. The lesson I got from this movie was that there is a time to be a kid and there is a time to put that behind you so you can become he person you're supposed to be. This is the kind of thing I never would have consciously picked up on as a child, but am becoming more aware of as an adult. The jungle is fun to play in but the village has more meaning, and is more important (and more safe) in the end.
39. Kathy said the following at 12:49 PM on Jan 31
I'm new to this blog, but stumbled across it via link, so I'm hoping my comments will not be redundant. I have greater sympathy with Alfonse than most my expect. My husband owns a business that requires mainly manual labor from his employees. His employees are men (women's joints cannot sustain the extended physical stress, although some have tried). He has been in the industry for 16 years and owned his own business for 8 years. He will be 60 years old next year. We jokingly say that we bring out the worst in a man . . . however, that appears to be true. Like the teabag in boiling water, what's inside comes out. My husband is not an in-your-face kinda guy, but he is determined and purposeful. He pays his men well and they have chance for advancement and certainly job security. The work is hard manual labor, and not something my husband planned on having to do for himself until it became clear that reliable men were going to be hard to find. All he requires (re job skills) is that you be able to keep up with him while on the job. We have seen well over 100 young men, between the ages of 18 and 35, cycle through his business during the past 8 years -- 20 just in the year 2007 alone -- and he is definitely what you'd call a small businessman. The definition of manhood does not to him necessarily include the ability to do hefty manual labor; however, he feels every man should be willing to do it to provide for his family should the need arise, and of course the man not being grossly limited in a physical way. What we've seen, the stories we could tell, go beyond what the average individual would believe. I won't go into any right now, because although they would be entertaining, I doubt it would be edifying.
By reading some of the comments already posted, I sense that people are seeking a formula or a method or a recipe that will ensure manhood or womanhood in the young adult. In God's word it says that man is to work the ground and woman is to bear the children. In other words, Papa brings home the bacon and Mama cooks it up. This is a basic biblical system that provides a pattern for successful manhood and womanhood. In my life, even though I don't consider myself that old, I've seen it all unfold. In the '50s the man was the provider and the woman took what he provided and made it stretch and made it work. Everyone understdood this pattern and I've heard say that, within reason, young people could marry almost anyone and be ensured of a successful match. Within this pattern was also an intense commitment to the mate chosen . . . in other words, as I saw it said earlier, you forsook all others. This made it tough to back out when trials came (and they ALWAYS come).
In the '60s things began to change, and I won't belabor that whole thing with women's liberation and women leaving the home and entering the workforce. While I know there's a lot of reasons why people will say it was good, for MOST women they were abandoning their post. They were deceived, perhaps, and that is sad. But it didn't change the outcome. In the '70s abortion was legalized. And it's been rolling downhill since then.
Back to my husband's business and manhood (I hope I'm not boring anyone yet). A dwindling labor force (via mothers in the workforce and delaying/forsaking motherhood and,as I stated above, abortion) has given young men a sense of superiority they do not possess. Along with this is the oh-so-capable young woman, who, with her cell phone, corporate job w/benefits package, perfectly tuned computerated vehicle, and disdain of any type of true guy-type behavior and a hairy back (why the popularity of the metro-sexual?), and you end up with a young man sitting on my sofa who tells me he has to have a job or his wife will kick him out. We ladies wanted it all, we got it all, and now we don't want it anymore. We have more than a generation of young men who don't have to worry about bringing home the bacon, because Mama will do it . . . and HIS mama did it (and we women DO do it -- we are so capable and willing to fill the gap and we do it better anyway, don't we? -- sarcasm here, just so you know). (I have a female relative who can never be happy with a man. She is very attracted to 'real' men . . . tough but tender, hard working, aggressive, assertive. So she begins to date them and then whines and complains because they aren't 'sensitive' enough. By the time she is done with them, they are pretty wimpy . . . and then she doesn't want them anymore!)
And while Mama was out bringing home the bacon, the children were left to themselves or the daycare or babysitter. No one cares for your children like you do, and no one can take your place in their life. Quantity time is all there is when you talk about motherhood. You just have to be there, be available, and they have to know you are there and are available. Else you end up with emotionally stunted young adults, always looking for someone to meet their emotional needs and never able to commit or communicate (i.e., look you in the eye and listen to what you are saying, and then they take their turn). They are BOTH (men and women) confused about what their role is in a relationship, confused about true masculinity and feminity.
There are exceptional situations that arise, that require role reversals and that require young people to remain single. And the definition of manhood and womanhood cannot be boxed into a corner as some of the attempts I noticed above. We are all individuals and we are none of us perfect. Grace and mercy must be applied. Living out our God-ordained roles in marriage help make us into the adults God intended us to be. We don't come made-to-order perfect, the trials will form us. But we cannot run away . . . we cannot escape or we WILL escape.
We have a daughter who is a young adult and she has witnessed all the young men trickling through our business and back out again ever since she was 13. She was raised to be a wife and mother and to support her man and make a haven of peace for him from the outside world, from where he would come after slaying the dragons (corporate or otherwise) to bring home her bacon to cook up. She's bright and lively and smart and beautiful, and she's not too stupid when it comes to guys. But she's not perfect, and she will need to mature after she is married, as will her young man. We've encouraged her in a couple of directions, romantically speaking, but there really is more to it than just the right formula. There's still that spark, that special something that clicks, which narrows down the field even more! But with God, all things are possible. As she told me recently, she can CHOOSE to be joyful, be faithful, be happy. I am hopeful for young women everywhere that their hearts will yearn for their husbands, homes, and children (it is a vital key that a woman is content with what her man brings home and actively exercises herself to make it stretch), and that the young men will respond in a manly, protective manner, rising to the call to provide and shelter. As you can probably tell, I feel that a man cannot lead if a woman won't follow. That the woman is the key to the revival of marriage and true romance in the dating and marrying of our young people in this country. Granted, the chivalry and manliness of young men today has been 'squashed' (one young man told our daughter that her desire to be a wife and mother keeping the home was 'just not practical' . . . while at the same time coming to tears frequently over the lack of love and caring from his own mother) but their thinking can be renewed as well. But I still think that the revival essentially starts where the trouble started . . . with us ladies.
I'm sure this will provoke an interesting comment or two. Kathy
40. Eliza said the following at 3:57 PM on Jan 31
Just a point of clarification:
Papa bringin' home the bacon to mama cookin' does not a happy functional family make. Both papa and mama must be content with their situations and able to happily communicate with each other.
I think this "men are immature" idea is more of a generational gap than anything else. Boomers and previous generations have this idea of the "father as provider" being the highest good or the most fulfilling role for a man, whereas the new generation has a different idea as to what will produce the best quality of life. Both for men and women. (Glaring generalization to follow:) The new generation isn't working for money as much as they are for emotional fulfillment and vacation days. And enough money to live on. And I don't see this as being immature at all; it's just a difference in priorities.
Immaturity is the inability to communicate or take responsibility for one's decisions or own up to one's mistakes. As long as a person is doing those things, they can make whatever decisions they want to and they will still be productive members of society and good members of their families.
41. Andrew (tlw) said the following at 10:27 PM on Jan 31
Eliza,
As you said, working for ‘emotional fulfilment’ is a generalisation. Meaning it’s fair to suggest it sounds like a theory that a Psychology Professor would espouse. Fair enough, it may apply to some people with a passion for their work. Of course, we should look for jobs that are best suited to our skills and our preferences, but even then, the best jobs have days where they are just a means by which we pay the bills, keep food on the table and a roof over our heads.
CS Lewis said once that the things you want the most will change once you actively begin to seek them out. Their will always be hard days, and hard work through which we must persevere. Expecting a job or vocation to provide ongoing fulfilment is a script setting you up for disappointment.
Consider Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Work as emotional fulfilment can only be possible once the basic needs for food, clothing and accommodation are satisfied. After a bad day at work where we are not fulfilled, we may want to change jobs. But that may not be an easy option if we have family that depend on having their lower order needs met consistently. Home delivered bacon, anyone?
Very, very few people can make whatever decisions they want. Normally when they do, we read about it in the headlines. There will always be consequences, for better or for worse (as I suggest to Alfonse, below). Immaturity, then, is more likely the inability to comprehend and appreciate the consequences of one’s decisions and actions. Like living for emotional highs from your work, and hanging out for vacations.
Alfonse Vincente,
I have no doubts about your experiences. All the complaints you hear each day doubtless have a substantial anchor in reality. As do your complaints about the fiscal and monetary risks of getting married. No doubt you’d expect a wife to take the Zsa Zsa Gabor approach to good housekeeping: divorcing you and keeping the house.
No marriage structure can provide 100% protection against this. But we can choose whom to date or court, and we can choose to change our perceptions of marriage and family life. This may help.
However, you’ve identified a major source of your perceptions: the people with whom you work.
I can’t say for sure whether nurses make better or worse spouses than other professions. Perhaps some nurses may wish to comment. But I do observe that the nursing profession has a high turnover, long working hours, shiftwork, weekend work, and often-times challenging interactions with patients, family and hospital administrators (a breed all on its own, I’m sure).
If you continue to surround yourself with such negative perceptions of marriage and family life, you will continue to believe as you’ve already espoused. You are surrounded by hungry, tired and unhappy women with out-of-rhythm body clocks (who really dislike 12 hour shifts – who wouldn’t?). So are you surprised to be bombarded with colleagues plotting nefarious deeds because of their relationships and circumstances?
I can’t persuade you to change your mind about how good relationships can be; you have to make that choice. But continue to feed your perceptions with what you’ve described and you’re best friend will remain the Nintendo in the cupboard. It might be time for you to consider changing your job or your career for the sake of your perceptions, or resign yourself to staying single.
42. Kathy said the following at 8:37 AM on Feb 1
For Eliza,
Yes, I think I agree with the idea that emotional fulfillment and vacation days and enough money to live on is a goal for some young people today. It doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me either! Although I'm not quite sure what 'emotional fulfillment' means, I'm guessing it just means feeling good about what you're doing and the direction your life is taking.
As far as the idea of the traditional husband/wife roles being a boomer idea, that isn't quite historical (remember the '60s?), but I understand your point. As a boomer, we kind of wrote the book on doing things the way we wanted and being different from the older generations. The idea that we can live the way we want as long as we communicate properly, take responsibility for our decisions, and are productive to society sounds a lot better than what we were saying as 'hippies', but it is still not scriptural. We are accountable to God,and the great thing about God is that He made us and He knows what will provide us the MOST emotional fulfillment. I realize that my position on the traditional 'father as provider and mother as homemaker' roles is kind of radical, even within the Christian community. And as I said above, there are exceptions that are necessary. I could take a pragmatic position, and tell you that I have tried it all and thought I was happy for a time, but in the end it just didn't work. That would be true, but we don't have to 'try it all' . . . we can follow the old paths and live our lives with fewer regrets, stronger families, and well-adjusted children.
If what young adults are doing today worked for them, there wouldn't be discussions about immature men and women of the type Alfonse spoke of. I asked one of our foremen once why young people were living together so much and not getting married, and he said it was more the young women who didn't want to commit. Why is that? Is it because she doesn't see what she likes or she can't find what she wants? Is it her fault because she has 'prince charming' syndrome, or is it because of immature men?. What I see among young people today (Christians not excluded, although the gross immorality is not always present) is hopping from relationship to relationship (not marriage). The young woman has a baby with a young man, they stay together a few months. One of them moves on and then he pays child support to her while he goes and lives with another young woman who has a baby from another young man who is paying child support to her. This is compounded a few times, until a young woman may have 3 or 4 children, all from different men, and living with another young man who is not the father of any of them, while she draws child support from all the other fathers. I have to draw up the child support checks, so I know what I'm saying is true. Sadly, I usually don't get to the point of withholding and mailing out the support checks, because the young men don't stay around. It isn't like my husband fires them, they just quit showing up for work. The young live-in girlfriend will call me up on the phone and ask me if her boyfriend really got fired or did he quit? Perhaps with a slightly older age group or a higher income level the pattern is not so pronounced or it manifests itself differently. We have some experience with that as well, and I don't see a blooming amount of emotional fulfillment there, but there is only a more sophisticated outworking of the same emotional immaturity.
I also do not need to chronicle the reports seen on the news channels of child abuse and abandonment and spousal abuse and murder, committed by both sexes against each other and their children, step-children, friends of children, and on to illustrate the need for stability and foundational integrity in the most basic of society's structure -- the family. Many of us have to start where we are at, with blended families and step-children, half-siblings, step-siblings . . . but it has to start. We have been called for a time such as this, we were not born out of season, this is where God has called us to live.
I would like to agree that not everyone needs to get married and that singlehood and a purposeful life are viable options . . . and of course for some it will always be so. It just seems that too many young people see this as the way to go, when I believe it should be the other way around. And, scripturally speaking, it is what I am to live and to teach, lest the word of God be blasphemed (Titus 2).
So, as I said before, and I know it is a narrow view, but I hope for the day when the young women yearn for their husbands, homes, and families and that the young men DO recapture their role as the breadwinner and provider and protector of the family. Just because women WILL do it or CAN do it, doesn't mean we SHOULD do it. Most men will give over their responsibilities if women will take them, and we have been doing it and trying to do it since Genesis. See Deborah in the scriptures and the women in many of our modern churches today. I think in following the pattern outlined in scripture for the structure of intimate male/female relationships (marriage) and children (when God designs it so), we can all find the SUPREME emotional fulfillment here on earth that God intended.
Having said all of this, we cannot be where we need to be until we get there. There's no way to take a shortcut to a heartfelt knowledge and belief in a way of life without a change of heart, no matter how it comes. I want it to be said that there is a better way, and we need to examine our options, and especially for young people to not be afraid to think very much 'outside the box' as people sometimes say, especially when life gets very hard, as it always will. Sorry for the long post. Kathy
43. Eliza said the following at 10:32 AM on Feb 1
Andrew:
I agree that we can't always get what we want in a career. (Personally, I've been looking for a job for a while and it's pretty discouraging.) That's why I said, "Immaturity is the inability to communicate or take responsibility for one's decisions or own up to one's mistakes", which is pretty much the same thing you said.
Kathy:
I appreciate your perspective. I realize we have very different lives, which naturally would lead us to see things differently.
I grew up in a society/community where your "family formula" was, if not mandated, definitely strongly encouraged. But following the rules was not a guarantee of happy families. Wives were still passive-aggressive, husbands were stressed-out and dealt with their wives by emotionally shutting down, and children were psychologically controlled. I have seen for myself that it takes a lot more than just daddy at work and mama at home to make a happy family.
You're point, however, is that although a two-income family might be moderately happy, they can never be has fully happy as a single-income well-functioning family would be. (I'm not talking about about golddigging women or deadbeat dads--they obviously have issues. I'm talking about "normal" couples.) And that this is either the fault of 1) immature males or 2) immature females. I'm repeating this just to make sure I got it right;).
Still, I have to respectfully disagree:). There are so many things that affect our "happiness" (whatever that means anyway) that the earthly ideal you're describing is unattainable. There are financial stresses and extended family stresses and home-owner stresses and hyperactive or disabled children stresses. Not to mention illness and depression. And everyone comes to a relationship with emotional baggage. That is unavoidable.
My point is that people are sinners, regardless of whether they are single or married or have a job or not or what age they are. Pointed fingers declared whole generations as "immature" in the '80s and in the '60s and in the '50s and in the '20s and for decades earlier. Each generation had it's own definition of what was wrong with the other one, and conveniently forgot that they themselves never found the answer to an earthly utopia. And so it goes. It's not anybody's "fault", it just is. We all could use another little dose of maturity because none of us will be fully mature until we see Jesus.
44. J. Mark said the following at 2:17 PM on Feb 1
Remember the church is the membership of the body of Christ…not just the pastor, or the elders, or the missions council, or the committees...but ALL congregants in all localities across the nation. We need to act locally first, then regionally, and nationally.
As such, we the membership in the body of Christ need to act individually and collectively to do several things:
DISCIPLESHIP
Church members often do not know the Bible and do not know what it means to be a Christian. I can tell you that when I was saved, I really didn’t know the next steps. I read and read and read the Scripture and this gave me spiritual strength. But I really didn’t know what it meant to pray, serve or evangelize.
When I looked for a church, I stumbled around a few different ones that were not Biblically true. It was only the constant reading of the Word that showed me after a time what was wrong with these particular churches.
New believers like me are really children. We need to be shown how to pray, how to serve and how to evangelize. We need to be mentored by mature believers, who will look for and identify members to take under their wing.
MINISTER
How many families in our local congregation are experiencing marital difficulties? How many are divorced? Do we know? Do we avoid the single parent? Do we dismiss the children of broken families because we think they are tainted? Do we judge?
We need to look for and assist local families in distress: married or divorced, member and non-member alike and minister to them. How do we do this? Well, we need to really get to know each other and really “be there” for each other. It is important that we step out of our private comfort zone and ask each other how things really are. If we don’t care, even about each other, then we really don’t care at all.
CITIZENSHIP
We are light and salt. We need to be active politically and socially on a local, state and national level. We need to be informed and exercise or citizenship responsibilities.
How many of us actually understand the issues that are destroying families? Divorce, finances, addictions, pornography can all be traced to core sins. Divorce and family court injustices, gay-marriage activism, free speech assaults on Christians, anti-Christian education policies and a host of other social trends are the bad fruit of these sins.
What are we doing about it personally and collectively? How many of us call, write and visit our elected servants. That’s right they are public servants, not officials. If we choose the wrong people, we choose the wrong direction. If we don’t communicate what we need to our public servants, they will do what is right in their own eyes. If we don’t remove them from office, we acquiesce to their will.
45. Louise said the following at 2:47 PM on Feb 1
Kathy, your "formula for success" is woefully undersimplified.
For example, the part about the wife "making the bacon stretch"...many men wouldn't accept that scenario.
When I was married, keeping my husband from overspending was a constant struggle.
46. Jason said the following at 12:13 PM on Feb 4
If you are searching for help in defining Biblical manhood and womanhood this pdf might help (http://www.cbmw.org/Recovering-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood/) along with the Bible of course.
47. Amir Larijani said the following at 8:09 AM on Mar 21
Steve:
Among the Christian single men I know personally, I can only think of two of them that fit the child-man description.
One of them--who doesn't even have a high school diploma--has a substantial mental handicap; the other--a super-intelligent attorney with an engineering background--is autistic and has conquered many demons that you and I would never have to face. He's a real-life Christian version of Rain Man.
Perhaps a better question would be whether we have seen marriage force a man to be more focused on family matters--hard work, devotion at home, duty to God and Church. To that, I can certainly answer in the affirmative.
Fact is, singles do have more time on their hands. Some of us use that time for important things--job, home, and Kingdom matters--while others fit the "boys and their toys" mantra. Still, others fall somewhere in the middle.
As a bachelor myself, I say none of that as a putdown to singles, but rather that I've seen both sides of that argument.
Among Christians, the good news is that a heck of a lot of bachelors are taking the things that matter very seriously. From a percentage standpoint, I don't see Christian bachelors as entrenched in the FHM/Maxim culture as non-Christian bachelors.
Of course, I must confess--as an engineering grad who enjoys shooting sports--I sort of enjoy breaking things (especially with tracer ammunition). So the exploding toilet does have a certain sinister appeal.
I have a half-brother who destroyed one while in high school: a block of pure sodium did the magic. Back then, it was a 2-week suspension and restitution. Today, that would be a terrorism prosecution! ;)
48. Laura Milligan said the following at 11:05 AM on Mar 29
yeah, I think the article is pretty dead-on. It's more like today's singles want to be "cool" and uber-hip with today's culture, more than they want to grow up and mature through responsibility and unselfishness. I see it in myself, as well in my single Christian friends. There's this trend afoot among Christian singles to be "of the world" while we're in it; to somehow prove to non-believers that we're really not so backward after all. However, I think that we keep ourselves in a state of extended adolescence when we pursue selfish pleasures and "fitting in" more than pursuing a life of intentional God-following.
49. BDB said the following at 1:41 PM on Mar 29
Amir (#47) wrote:
>>I have a half-brother who destroyed one while in high school: a block of pure sodium did the magic. <<
Oh! My high school had a huge block of that stuff. The teachers were actually worried about having so much on site. They were thinking of taking it to the river and throwing it off a bridge...
And this week I finally watched the movie "Peter Pan" so now I understand what the "Peter Pan Syndrome" is...
50. Richard said the following at 5:39 PM on Apr 2
Whenever I look around me at fellow members of my sex, I am almost always embarrassed by what I see. I embarrassed by the sheer numbers of males who act like boys instead of acting like men. Even more disturbing is the age of these guys - Guys in their mid twenties who still act like little kids.
It is disturbing to watch. Guys who are in their twenties who STILL LIVE WITH PARENTS, who have no serious career ambitions, who still play video games for hours on end, who lack any sense of direction or commitment or stability, who haven't been courageous enough to take a stand on an issue where they can be shot down for standing up for what they believe in, and who are not ready yet (and have no desire to) lead a family.
For me, I have always believed in traditional gender roles, and being a man, I have always strived for manliness. This means I want to be a leader, to stand with integrity, to fight for what I believe in, to stand up for those weaker than I am, to succeed at my career and personal life, and to prepare myself to lead a wife and family.
Let me rant issue by issue here:
Firstly, I am bothered by men my age who have no serious intention of ever marrying or having a family. I wanted to be married by aged 22. I was fully mature to lead a family at a young age. But my male counterparts, many now in their mid twenties, have no serious plans of ever getting married and having children. For many of them, the idea is laughable. Seriously, WHAT THE HECK is wrong with them?? Who wouldn't want to be a husband and father ?????
Secondly, I am bothered by the sheer lack of ambition of my male counterparts. They really have no plans to accomplish anything meaningful in society, and don't care either. For me, I want to make a difference - That is why I was a crisis line counselor who handled over 1500 crisis calls, a leader who mentored a young boy with Big Brothers, a student orientation leader, a crime prevention group member, a member of the SFU pro life club, a world vision volunteer, and now I have even more ambitions - To go law school, and come back as a social justice lawyer fighting for the rights of the poor and homeless and for families who don't have enough to eat. MEN ARE MEANT to lead.....why do I always feel I have to lead alone???
Thirdly, my next topic of rant, where in heck’s name is the integrity among young men my age??? One of my male friends became a drunkard, another went to Quebec and started partying and sleeping around with Quebec girls (gross), and my third and final friend - Well, he started to meet up in Stanly Park at night for gay sex with men he doesn't know. Okay, no one is perfect, but one has to have principles they are going to stand by. It's not easy in the face of a crowd to stand for what one believes in, but a man HAS TO DO IT. It is not optional. When I first started my construction job, I got teased and harassed all the time because I am Christian, because I choose to wait to have sex, and because I refuse to look at pornography or to go to strip clubs. At first, I felt so depressed over it. But then, I decided to fight back. Every single time I got teased, I stood up for what I believed in to the face of my co workers. The more I did it, the more confident I became, and the more respect I actually earned from my co workers. Maybe they don't share my views, but they at least admire my courage, something which is lacking in most many these days.
Anyway, I could write all day about this topic, and I know I don't have time to do that, and you don't have time to read my writing.
So in conclusion, I feel frustrated by the lack of maturity seen in my male peers and hope they quickly start acting like men rather than like little boys.
51. IMO said the following at 8:25 AM on Apr 3
Richard-
I hope I can speak for all your sisters in Christ when I say THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!
52. a sassy sister said the following at 9:22 AM on Apr 3
Richard,
you say you are frustrated by the lack of maturity that you're seeing. Since your rant displays your deeply held beliefs and passion for this, what are you doing about it? Are you encouraging mentoring and discipleship for those men who want to grow into adulthood? Are you being discipled and mentored as well in this process?
Not trying to attack you, but I just wanted to give my .02
53. Ben said the following at 12:56 PM on Apr 24
Steve:
I'm new here but I had to respond to your blog about why some guys wouldn't want to marry and have a family.
I'm 49 never married and raised as a Baptist. My father was a deacon board chairman and my mother taught me in Vacation Church School.
It seems to me that women like Amy and others who lament the shortage of christian men to "pursue them" are flattering themselves way too much. I'm willing to bet without ever meeting them that they aren't such a great "marriage deal" and their attitudes are to blame for their lack of a male(or female) mate. They probably aren't much to look at either. My Maytag washer wouldl have more eye appeal.
Most single guys like myself who have a professional job, own a home, and have some investments have figured out that we're more likely to loose $100,000 or more due to divorce than anything a "Godly woman" could ever contribute. I'll take new appliances and a new Chevy Tahoe any day over a woman who is "full of herself"
54. Christina (in green) said the following at 1:32 PM on Apr 24
Wow, Ben...
For someone who doesn't visit here much, I'd say you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Being one of those women that christian guys don't pursue, let me tell you a little bit about myself.
I am intelligent - I have a degree in math and computer science, a 1300 SAT score, I work at an engineering firm. I enjoy Philosophy, Politics, History, Religion...
I'm not too shabby looking (though I'm not full of myself in this area). I'm in decently good shape, having been running 3-5 days a week for over a year now (I've never been considered fat by other people's standards - just my own). I have long soft hair, smooth skin, really cool looking eyes that display every single emotion I'm going through, and a rather nice shape. All things I have been complimented on numerous times by men and women alike.
I was raised in the church, used to be very active, and have always strived to keep God at number one in my life.
I am easy to get along with, though I tend to be a bit more serious. I have no desire for a divorce, would love to be a SAHM.
Yes, I have problems. Everyone does. Obviously, your's is not willing to take a risk. I tend to have a bit of a temper that seems to come out of nowhere after having something bother me for extremely long periods of time. I struggle regularly with being a "rational" woman that feels irrational emotions on a regular basis.
There are women on this site that aren't much different than that. And yet, no christian man (or very very few) have ever thought to PURSUE these women. So before you insult us with saying such things as this:
"I'm willing to bet without ever meeting them that they aren't such a great "marriage deal" and their attitudes are to blame for their lack of a male(or female) mate. They probably aren't much to look at either. My Maytag washer wouldl have more eye appeal."
Why don't you take a look around first.
Considering I've had multiple non-christian men pursue me (and even take note of my christian world-view...which isn't just a small part of me), I'd say I'm attractive enough for any christian man and they have no reason not to find me any less attractive than the rest of the world does. And that can be said about a lot of the women on this blog.
So please, keep your self-absorbed opinions to yourself until you know better.
55. Christina (in green) said the following at 2:51 PM on Apr 24
Concerning my last comment -
That wasn't being self-absorbed. I attempted to state facts as they are without over-embellishing.
A woman can be genuinly confused without being "full of herself" when her family and friends are genuinly confused at why she is still single. She can be genuinely confused when decent, moral, non-christian men pursue them and christian men sit in the same bible study with them claiming how much they want a wife without starting a conversation with her.
No, your right...maybe I wasn't their type. But I take incredible offense that you would say such insensitive things about a woman's singleness when you are probably just as guilty as the next guy for not approaching a decent, attractive, Godly woman.
56. Rachael said the following at 3:09 PM on Apr 24
Wow Ben :)
57. Casey said the following at 10:14 AM on May 2
I think a lot of you are missing the point. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with a man's (or woman's) interest in football, cyborgs, or exploding toilets - AS LONG AS IT'S IN MODERATION. There's a time and place for it. The author is not stating that we should lead boring, serious lives 100% of the time. She's talking about men who immerse themselves in this lifestyle and never learn to lead lives with meaning. I think it's perfectly fine that my boyfriend enjoys those things, he's a man, he should. But when they take it to the extreme and engross themselves with these activities, meanwhile avoiding responsibility and maturity, then it becomes a problem, and thus the focus of the author's article. There must always be a balance of recreation and responsibility. The dominance of one of these is extreme, which leads to an unbalanced life.
58. Catherine said the following at 9:22 PM on Dec 1
This is a response to Richard and not the article however I feel the need to point one thing out:
As a Québécoise I find it extremely offensive that you would deem Québécois as a drunkard people and especially the women as "gross". However, it doesn't sound as if you do get out a lot so I will leave you the benefit of the doubt as you've probably never ventured outside your own backyard. Stick to the article please without interjecting racism.
Thanks.
59. Andia said the following at 4:28 PM on Jan 24
1. Margaret, you and I would have totally been friends due to the fact that I have been pulling out spiritual applications from Disney movies ever since I saw The Little Mermaid in first grade with my parents and they explained to me the biblical aspect of it. Your post was ON POINT! Loved it.
2. Kathy, I do agree that my generation has slipped into this falsehood of the general roles of men and women so much so that everyone is confused about whether they belong in the private or public sphere. However, I am a product of parents that both worked. I remember my mother telling me that my dad's salary was not enough to cover 4 mouths in the beginning, He had joined the Navy about 4 years before they got married and life for the two of them was fine. But when my sister and I were born and when we moved to the States, my mother said she even tried to get food stamps because we were struggling (which she begrudgingly did), but she was told my dad made too much money. Ha! The story of my life! I remember taking a few night classes and working the night shift at Sears when I was in second grade, but I always saw her before I went to sleep and when I woke. She did PTA, sometimes brought me lunch or volunteered. If she had to work, my dad was there taking care of us. And if he had duty and she was working, we had a babysitter that was a family friend, so I don't think I ever lacked from both my parents working. I saw a very fruitful relationship between them both and my mother, even though she still works, exemplifies a Proverbs 31 wife. When my dad was young he said his dad brought home the bacon but that was it. My dad had no guidance as a child of how to become a man. I am so thankful that Jesus helped him in that department.
The dynamics of society have changed. Its more expensive to breath nowadays and sometimes the only other alternative is for a wife to help. I don't think she should do it begrudgingly and nag her husband because of it. Its in her job description to be a helper to her mate. However, I don't mean that she should take on all the responsibility to the point where her husband says "my baby says she's got this so I'm going to sit down and enjoy the simplicity of exploding toilets and Final Fantasy 81". Not cool.
I do think women are partially to blame for the vegetative state we find some men in. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen where wives berate their husbands on national television and saying that they wear the paints in the family and not their husbands. I have friends who are very accomplished in their careers and find it hard to want to relinquish control (always wanting to pay for the meal ect) but then complain that men aren't more assertive. We have created monsters.
I am not opposed to women working though, but I do feel we need to get our priorities straight. My job will be centered around God and my family, so what I guess I'm saying is that I hope to be a self-employed stay at home mum. LOL.
3.After reading the article blip and the comments which are mostly in offense of what was said, I will say this as Inigo Montoya on Princess Bride says, "I do not think it means what you think it means."
I don't think Steve or this article is saying that as a man "thou shalt burn all thy video games and Maxim magazines!" ok maybe the Maxim magazines can be burned. As a child, both men and women are somewhat selfish. They have no real responsibilities and really their lives are centered around someone meeting their needs and playing and being a kid. There is no sacrifice in being a child (except for maybe going to bed a little early). I think what this article is saying is that society is churning out individuals who don't leave room in their minds for sacrificing for others, marriage and children being a huge sacrificial act. I don't think they are saying that getting married will make you man nor will getting rid of your man toys make you mature, but I think what is being said is that when you start looking at marriage as something you need to prepare yourself for and not thinking it will be there when you get done playing Halo 17, the process between being a child-man, who neglects his responsibilities, to becoming a man who is willing to think of others is what the article is trying to touch on. We have become a people that seeks to find ways of bettering our personal happiness with little regard to how we can better the happiness of those around us. Its all about seeking out what God's purpose is for our lives, whether it be marriage or something else, and preparing our lives for service to God and others. And if you can do that while fighting cyborgs and drooling over Transformers (btw there should be no negativity about Transformers in anyone's comments. It is practically blasphemy to do so :) ) then by all means do all to the glory of God!
I am a 24 year old woman (wow even saying "woman" sounds so mature) who likes to wake up on a Saturday morning, grab a bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and watch Tom and Jerry and laugh hysterically. I go to Best Buy and will play Guitar Hero for ten minutes, before I am beckoned by friends or family that it is time to go. I am also the same woman (again whoa!) who sold all of my video games in order to have enough money to drive home to see my family and I will sacrifice certain things I have great interest in, in order to save up for things that are far more important like a home and a family some day. I'll more than likely be sitting at home with my kids someday on a Saturday morning watching old school cartoons over a bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
Much love,
Andia