Who'd a Thunk It?
by Tom Neven on 12/24/2007 at 11:39 AM
I like to think of Christianity as the "Who'd a Thunk It?" faith. In so many ways it defies man's expectations, and yet it is so perfect and obvious.
There was the fact that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, something that really should not be in doubt but which makes so much sense after you think about it -- Rob Bell to the contrary.
That he would be a unassuming servant and not a conquering king also makes so much sense after the fact, born, not in a king's palace, but in humble conditions.
And that he was born to die would not have been guessed in a million years, yet it becomes so clear after the fact.
When you look at the efforts of man in all the other world religions to somehow earn their way into God's favor and compare it to Christianity, it becomes clear why I always say, "Who'd a thunk it!?"
So what better way to remember the birth of our Savior than to call on His name.
Merry Christmas!
1. Adam D said the following at 12:18 PM on Dec 24:
I pretty much agree with this post completely. Yet a lot of skeptics say things like how this is an often repeated legend and that Christianity takes from old pagan religions, etc. However even though I see people say that a lot, I never see anyone give reference to anything credible or examples or quotes or citations or whatever that would prove what they claim. If anyone is knowledgeable with these matters could you direct me to some websites or books that clear this up? Thank you.
2. John said the following at 2:25 PM on Dec 24:
How many people think they know the christmas story, but in actuallity don't?
How many wise men were there?
When did they show up? At birth? Or a year to two later?
Lots of people think they know, but are wrong.
3. Jacob Douvier said the following at 2:29 PM on Dec 24:
Paul makes the point in 1 Corinthians 1 & 2 that Christ is folly and weakness to the world, but to we who believe, Christ is the wisdom and power of God. Am I surprised when non-Christians don't believe in the virgin birth and question the resurrection? No. Am I surprised that I am a Christian? Yes, for it was not of myself, but of the very grace of God.
4. Josh said the following at 6:20 PM on Dec 24:
Has it ever bugged anyone else that the prophecy from Isaiah about the virgin birth is clearly referring to a completely different sequence of events then Christ's birth?
5. Don said the following at 2:54 AM on Dec 25:
Josh
Apparently not. Please feel free to share your insight.
Don
6. Marie said the following at 9:22 AM on Dec 25:
I echo Dan's sentiments.
7. Marie said the following at 9:38 AM on Dec 25:
Er, Don.** Sorry about the typo..
8. Josh said the following at 2:45 PM on Dec 25:
I guess the easiest way to look at the passage is to go to the link to biblegateway in the article (the word "virgin") and then expand the result to include the entire chapter of Isaiah that the verse is from. It's like the one verse about the virgin giving birth to Immanuel is plucked conveniently from the middle of this passage in order to put on Hallmark cards.
Truthfully I have trouble feeling honest about saying the virgin birth fulfilled a prophecy when I read the passage in Isaiah completely differently in context. I'm sure much smarter people then me have done commentary on it, but its been a source of minor irritation to me for awhile.
9. Jo said the following at 4:27 PM on Dec 25:
John, without consulting my Bible (which would be cheating of course :P) -
"How many wise men were there?"
Scripture doesn't say.
"When did they show up? At birth? Or a year to two later?"
I'm less sure on this one but I don't think Scripture specifies this either - but, I've always assumed it to be a fair bit later, since a) the star appeared when Jesus was born and they had a long way to travel, and b) why else would Herod have ordered the deaths of all the baby boys under 2 years old? The implication seems to be that Jesus was at least a year or so by the time the wise men visited. Of course we always see them pictured in the stable, but Scripture doesn't mention a stable either (just a manger, which could have been in the street). By the time the wise men arrived they could easily have been in proper accomodation.
Here's one for you: how many God-given dreams are mentioned in the nativity story?
I think reading the story again and again is great for seeing fresh things each time. My realisation this year was that God, rather than letting Joseph know the plan at the same time as Mary, left it to her to tell him she was pregnant, then waited until he had actively wrestled with the situation and made a decision to divorce her, before confirming the truth to him. How awful and difficult for Mary, and how much faith she must have been forced to cultivate in that period, having to rely on God and getting no divine rescue until the very last moment.
10. Jo said the following at 5:31 PM on Dec 25:
Adam D - I read about that subject quite a lot in the spring, since I have several friends who also give credence to the idea that Jesus was merely a variation on popular pagan myths. They find 'amazing parallels' between Jesus and certain other gods including Osiris, Horus, Dionysus, etc. It's very interesting, here are my thoughts...
Key points (simply put):
1. They imply that Jesus is being compared to one other figure, when what they're actually doing is searching for characteristics of Jesus in any pagan 'deity' they can find, then lumping them all together under the name 'Osiris-Dionysus'. There is no one pagan god who bears a 'striking similarity' to Jesus.
2. They use specifically Christian terminology (for example 'baptism') to describe pagan ideas that were different in practice and meaning, to give the impression that these 'original' rituals were copied by Christians.
3. They broaden similarities (ie 'both gods die and rise again' when the mechanism and meaning of this is completely different in each case) to claim a wholesale dependency of Christianity on Pagan mystery religions, a massive leap. They assume that Christianity copied Paganism when it is at least as likely that the opposite occurred, if any copying occurred at all.
That's the short version, here are the long ones. Start by reading this article - it is very long but very thorough and covers these points in far more detail:
Was Jesus Just A Copycat Saviour Myth?
That may well be enough for you, if not...
Fairy Castles Built On Sand
For the other side of the debate I read most of 'The Jesus Mysteries' by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, which starts by reassuring the reader that "When we began to uncover such extraordinary similarities between the story of Jesus and Pagan myth we were stunned." Well that's okay, they're not trying to debunk Christianity at all then. *Cough* It's not a good book but it is a great exercise in challenging everything you read and praying a lot.
I definitely DO recommend 'Reinventing Jesus' by J. Ed Komoszewski, M. James Sawyer and Daniel B. Wallace. It covers this (although not in great detail) and virtually every other common objection to the Christian faith, and is a very very good book, and easy to read.
I suspect that's way more information than you were really looking for. :)
11. Adam D said the following at 8:51 PM on Dec 25:
Jo - Actually I'm very happy you responded and gave me links and such. This is something I am fairly in the dark about and feel like I need to know because they are pressing questions that need answers. I don't have time tonight to read the articles you have graciously provided, but I assure you that I am very interested and will certainly read them soon. :D
12. John said the following at 6:56 AM on Dec 26:
Jo,
Exactamundo! Scripture doesn't say how many magi.
Somebody better take that hymn about three kings out of the hymnal.
It is also clear that they arrived to his house, about a year or two after his birth.
Without consulting, I'd say 3 dreams. Two for Joseph and 1 for the magi.
Merry Christmas.
Anybody celebrating ephiphany?
13. Jo said the following at 4:57 PM on Dec 26:
Merry Christmas to you too John, and I hope you find the links helpful Adam. :)
Dreams:
#1 Joseph, to fill him in
#2 Magi, to warn them away form Herod
#3 Joseph, to send them to Egypt
#4 Joseph, to bring them back to Israel (Mt 2:19)
#5 Joseph, to send them to Galilee (Mt 2:21)
That's a lot of dreams. Another thing I only realised recently. :)