Romance or Cowardice?
by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin on 11/20/2007 at 7:25 AM
My coworker alerted me to this story. When New York Illustrator Patrick Moberg couldn't get up the nerve to talk to the "woman of his dreams" on the Subway, he created a Web site to find her. It worked — sort of. Judging by their chemistry on this ABC News interview, I predict it won't last.
What about you? Have you ever missed an opportunity to strike up a conversation and regretted it later? With the Internet has come a myriad of new ways to develop relationships of varying degrees. For example, instead of talking to someone at an event, you can simply look them up on Facebook and add them as a "friend." Moberg's quest is extreme (and debatably a publicity stunt), but it's becoming easier for guys (and girls) to cyber-stalk instead of taking real-time risks. This can create confusion (as if relationships aren't perplexing enough). If a guy asks you out as a blog comment, adding a winking emoticon, is he joking, serious or testing the waters?
Evidently, copycat bloggers are taking Moberg's approach to getting the girl: blogging about her instead of talking to her — and then waiting to see what happens. It seems like a cowardly way to go about things. If a girl never responds to an Internet ask-out, it's possible it wasn't rejection — just a miscommunication. Some may view Moberg's actions as romantic; to me, they seem like an afterthought.
1. Trevor Dolby said the following at 7:55 AM on Nov 20:
Funny - I was just saying the same kind of thing yesterday to somebody. No longer does one need the courage to ask a girl for her phone number: ask her to be your facebook friend (most people seem to accept given the slightest excuse) and you have all the results with almost none of the risk. With SecondLife, you can do even more; none of the nerve-wracking uncertainty of having to ask a girl for a dance in real life is present in virtual worlds (or much less, anyway) (and yes, you can dance in SecondLife :) ).
I think I'm seeing the effect of this in coworkers/subordinates who have never had to develop real courage; only time will tell if this is an accurate observation (or a trend).
2. Jo said the following at 8:17 AM on Nov 20:
My heart instantly warms to this.
You suggest it might be a publicity stunt but i gotta say, on that interview he seems pretty awkward and 'rabbit caught in headlights' about the whole thing. I can totally see him not having the guts to go up to her, and I think his method was quite fun and creative, though it's sheer luck that it actually got results!
I do get what you're saying in the post, but we gotta cut the guys some slack somewhere. We already demand that they take the whole burden of risk in asking us out, since we're so unwilling to make the first move or even in some cases to show interest - and now we want to tell them HOW to ask us out as well?
It's all very well to talk about gender roles, but we know our culture has blurred those lines, and all of us have to live in this culture. So just as we girls have to navigate the problem areas of independence and submission, so the guys have to figure out how to lead in a culture where they're told that women don't need or want to be led. To a certain extent I think we all need to lay aside some of our expectations, however biblical they may be, and give each other the benefit of the doubt and at least a bit of credit for trying.
3. Andrew R. (aka Canadian Boy) said the following at 9:35 AM on Nov 20:
Don't be so hard on him, I think his intentions were good. It's a cute story. If they end up getting married and living a long life together, how sweet would that be?
4. frannie said the following at 9:45 AM on Nov 20:
I think we girls need to cut young men some slack. Many young men (and I mean 18-30) are incredibly shy with girls (I know because I have so many brothers and guy cousins who confide in me). This doesn't mean that they're deficient in character. Our culture glorifies brashness, forwardness, and the extrovert. That's all well and good in business, but for romantic relationships to begin, someone has to make a move. And if a girl senses a man might be a little interested and she's a little interested, she can easily come up with ways to encourage him, flirt a little, invite him to group things, etc, until he can overcome his shyness. (And of course, I would not confuse shyness with "he's just not that into you.")
I would point to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, and the sad case of Jane Bennett. As Charlotte wisely tells her, "She should show more interest than she feels lest she lose him." This man seems very creative and thoughtful and he DID make a move. I applaud him!
Asking for a phone number is all well and good, but on the metro, a girl is more likely to look for the nearest policeman if a stranger comes up to her and hits on her.
Asking girls out on facebook, through blog comments, or text messages is lame. A man may use those mediums to ask for the girl's number and then call her properly like an adult. I hate getting a text message from a guy, "wanna do somethin ;-) ?" If a man has my #, he should make the phone call.
5. a sassy sister said the following at 9:47 AM on Nov 20:
The reason why I believe this whole thing invokes so much controversy is because it speaks to the breakdown of DIRECT, CLEAR communication between men and women. The problem really lies in the fact that NO ONE LIKES BEING REJECTED, MAN OR WOMAN. Human beings are habitual and will make decisions that attempt to minimize the pain of rejection, loss, and/or failure. Unfortunately, not too many people realize that rejection and failure are a part of life. Am I implying that somehow you should always expect disappointment in life, including relationships? No. But what I am saying is that a successful life includes an ability to handle rejection, disappointment,loss, failure, and to keep going and keep loving despite it. Real love is a choice, a risk, and not predicated on the approval or acceptance of another. I say this because Christ died for us before we made a decision to accept what he did. He also submitted to the will of the Father even though he knew that some would never accept him and that some would hate him regardless.
There are many things we can do to encourage forthrightness among Christian men and women:
1)Encourage Christian men to take the initiative and give them grace when their execution isn't perfect the first time around. Please understand that I am not condoning disrespect or inappropriate conduct, but I believe too many get rejected and don't get back on the horse because they were cut down so brutally by a woman and discouraged from thinking the next time would be any different.
2.)Guys, understand that because a woman is engaged in a conversation with you DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that she's attracted to you! Pray for wisdom in regards to your interaction with ladies and then, ask for clarity.
3.)Ladies and gentlemen: Be real, be patient, and rush nothing! If your relationships with your best friends took time to grow and develop, why aren't you giving the same time and effort in your relationships? When you rush, you have a tendency to ignore the important things you already know and blind yourself to the things you don't know but need to know.
6. Anna said the following at 9:47 AM on Nov 20:
I agree with Jo to a point... this seems kind of cute. But I also agree that guys have the excuse to just flirt online; it's a lot safer and less risky for them because rejection hurts less online. Still, I think this guy was really putting himself out there with this. It's not the same as just adding someone on Facebook.
7. Tami said the following at 9:57 AM on Nov 20:
I think the two of them are actually cute. They seem like two normal, artsy people who probably would have met and got on well in a different situation, like a party. Frankly, I think it has as good of a chance at lasting as any relationship, especially once the media attention is off them and the awkwardness of the "meet cute" wears off.
I wouldn't read too much into the body language. The experience of being on TV -- especially having *just met* and having this label of ROMANTIC COUPLE!!! placed on them -- would make *anyone* feel awkward! I doubt that either of them is "media trained," so they wouldn't know how to "hide" any of the awkwardness in their mannerisms. Plus, the guy wore a hoodie to go on Good Morning America, so I doubt he's Mr. Savvy. :)
But would *I* respond to something like that? Probably not, unless it turned out that we had a mutual acquaintance.
8. kman said the following at 10:05 AM on Nov 20:
Funny thing is, guys will do some breathtakingly dangerous things...jump their bike off a roof, try to jump form one tree to another, jump over a moving vehicle etc etc...
But these same guys are scared to risk asking a woman out. Case in point- I have a single friend at church and we'll go do something outdoors. He'll climb a cliff without a rope or walk right along the edge of a 200 ft bluff while filming what's below. BUT when he finds a girl he's interested in, he mulls it over and over and most of the time decides against it.
I guess the body will heal quicker than the heart. And you may have a cool scar to show off afterwards :P
9. Matt said the following at 10:08 AM on Nov 20:
How about a hybrid way of doing it.
I e-mailed a girl asking for her number. Then I called her and asked her out.
To me that seemed about the extent of acceptability of using the internet to ask someone out.
10. Sara said the following at 10:30 AM on Nov 20:
Don't know about the whole thing, but that cartoon is just the cutest!
11. erin said the following at 11:21 AM on Nov 20:
I think taking the time to create a website with a detailed description of the girl qualifies as more than an "afterthought."
I agree they were a little awkward in the interview, but they had just met the night before! I wasn't expecting them to be holding hands or looking all lovey-dovey. I think the whole thing is kind of cute, but I do agree it's symptomatic of the way our culture is shifting to indirect communication as a primary mode.
12. Will said the following at 2:26 PM on Nov 20:
Right on Suzanne! While I'm not sure the website was an "afterthought" I completely agree that technology has taken the "risk" out of "risk-taking".
Part of the process of finding a wife is taking the risk. Men, we represent Christ in a relationship -- the one who is there to protect our bride just as Christ protects the Church. Does Jesus passively pursue us or not "take the risk" for fear of rejection? Or does He let us know in no uncertain terms that he wants a relationship with us?
How would we respond if the Bible was written in the same way as passive men want to communicate with women? I imagine if Ephesians said something like: "Jesus loves the lost -- wink, wink" we'd all question what the true intentions were.
Men: Cogitate on this -- do your actions towards women reflect that of Christ and the Church?
Women: Ruminate over how you respond to men who show straightforwardness. Are you a Gomer (one who doesn’t respect the man) or a gracious responder?
13. cn said the following at 2:34 PM on Nov 20:
haha! This made me smile! After thought? naaaaaaa.... how many guys see the girl on the subway... chicken out and never do anything about it again! At least he tried! I'd hold off on judgements about chemistry so soon! Goodness... they just met the day before, and they were on national television! That's enough to make anyone nervous! Besides, if love grows.. doesn't chemistry grow too? ;)
beyond that, I agree with the confusion that internet friendships can cause... I just don't know if this story is the same senario!
14. Anna said the following at 2:50 PM on Nov 20:
Matt - that seems totally fine. You wanted to ask her for her number, but you asked her out "in person" - or at least audibly. I don't think there's anything cowardly about that.
15. Suzanne said the following at 3:58 PM on Nov 20:
A note on the "chemistry" comments. My opinion is also based on a number of articles I've read detailing the couple's apparent lack of connection at several appearances ("looked like they weren't having a good time," "didn't smile," etc.) Could just be because Moberg is shy. I'm not afraid to be proven wrong on this one. :) The articles have made me a little cynical....
16. Tami said the following at 5:11 PM on Nov 20:
I think it's normal to be a little skeptical about this type of thing.
But... "looked like they weren't having a good time..." "didn't smile..." To me, that sounds like the normal reaction of two relatively normal "unintentional celebrities" after a long day of being in front of a nosy media asking many personal questions. Can't say I'd be any different, if I was on GMA the day I after I started dating some dude (no matter how awesome). ;)
As a side note... I find it adorable that the "girl of his dreams" is a cute, sweet-looking, modest-seeming girl. When I first heard this story I thought it was going to be about some hapless dude who fell in "love" with a (literal) model he saw on the subway. But then, that's MY cynicism seeping through. :)
17. Paul said the following at 5:23 PM on Nov 20:
I betcha he never ever thought it would work... Because if I did something like that, I would never for a second think it would've worked and then been "holy cow what do I do now!" if it did... :)
and yeah, they looked awkward (as any new couple on Good Morning America would've looked) but my guess is that she's a bit out of his league... (seemed like it anyway)
here's hoping they enjoy their 15 minutes of fame, and if it works out, what a story to tell your grandkids!
18. Rebecca said the following at 5:34 PM on Nov 20:
Isn't that a little presumptuous - 'based on their chemistry' in the CNN video. They'd just met. They were average people on television - how would you feel? Uncomfortable?
Also, I think the pursuit is just as evident here. It's a lot more evident in this circumstance than the casual 'will you go out with me' that goes around now. There is no harm in using new media, just because it's new doesn't make it evil. That saying, there are instances of msn/chat and other online means that aren't so positive.
19. DanL said the following at 5:41 PM on Nov 20:
A couple of months ago, I was together with a group of friends and one of the ladies mentioned that she thought it was a great idea for men to ask women out via email. Her reasoning was that it gave the man a chance to think through what he was going to say and didn’t have to worry about getting nervous or botching the delivery. I said that I thought it was cowardly to ask someone out via email, and she was very unhappy with me. I was very perplexed by this since I had a hard time seeing someone would think being asked out by email would be a good thing. I wondered if she was desperate and trying to encourage more guy to ask her out, but I know she has been asked out my most of the single men in the church (I’m not really sure why, but that is another story) so this didn’t seem to make sense. Later one of her friends told me that she thinks my other friend prefers it because she likes to turn people down by email rather than in person.
I’m not really sure that rejection is easier to handle online. I once had lady back out of a date (which I made in person) via email and I think I would have preferred it had she called me. I can understand why she didn’t though.
I wonder if I can ask an etiquette question. Is there some unwritten rule that says I’m supposed to ask someone out over the phone? People always talk about doing it this way, or about getting a lady’s number. I much prefer to ask someone out in person if at all possible, since it’s easier to communicate if you can read body language. Am I being unfair and putting women too much on the spot if I ask them out in person rather than over the phone?
20. Leah said the following at 6:58 PM on Nov 20:
The story I heard was not that Moberg "couldn't get up the nerve" to talk to her, but that by the time he made his way through the subway to her she had gone (either gotten off or simply moved seats). Don't know which is true.
And you can't use the internet as somethign Moberg was "hiding" behind (which is exactly what you're implying). He used the internet to meet her. He wanted to meet her! Not just talk about her on the internet, or talk to her on the internet, he wanted to meet her. What is your problem with that? The fact he's using the internet?
My fiance asked me out over the internet. We'd been friends for a few months and were chatting online one day, and the conversation kind of lead to it... and he essentially said "ok I won't pass up this opportunity" and asked me out. We knew each other in the flesh before it happened, and saw each other in the flesh the next day. It just happened that the time he said the particular words it was over the internet. And I don't care. Look where we are now.
21. Leah said the following at 7:03 PM on Nov 20:
kman- I could be wrong because I don't know your friend, but I think another reason guys are like that is because in the instances where they are climbing the cliff or walking along the bluff, they feel like they have control of the situation. With a girl, they dont have control of the situation, and I think that might spook some guys a bit.
22. Kit said the following at 9:42 PM on Nov 20:
I think it's cute, and if I discovered a blog I might blog right back. You never know...
One thing that has struck me recently is how much we do online. People hire job candidates without ever meeting them. People develop friendships online...and it's really the same as the oldfashioned pen-pal...also, very cute. :-)
23. R said the following at 9:46 PM on Nov 20:
These days its not so much about fear of rejection. Its about making the girl feel comfortable, and for the guy to not come across as creepy or sketchy. Very hard to do in a impromptu setting, and remember there are a lot of bad people out there.
Anyways, at least he got the date! Kudos to him!
24. Jo said the following at 10:28 PM on Nov 20:
DanL said: "A couple of months ago, I was together with a group of friends and one of the ladies mentioned that she thought it was a great idea for men to ask women out via email. Her reasoning was that it gave the man a chance to think through what he was going to say and didn’t have to worry about getting nervous or botching the delivery. I said that I thought it was cowardly to ask someone out via email, and she was very unhappy with me."
I totally understand her point of view, although I'm not saying she's 'right'. As your other friend suggested I think it probably has to do with it being easier to reject people via email as well, for exactly the same reasons (you have time to think about it, formulate a sensitive response, etc). Speaking as a woman - and yes I know this is a catch 22 - if I liked the guy, I would much rather he asked me out face to face. If I didn't like the guy, I would much rather be asked out by email or something similar because I find it less threatening and less awkward to say no in that situation.
If your friend has been asked out by that many guys - and had to reject that many guys - I'm not the slightest bit surprised that she prefers the email method. Rejection is hard whether you're receiving it or giving it.
25. BDB said the following at 10:29 PM on Nov 20:
Leah wrote:
>>My fiance asked me out over the internet.<<
Wait - you're engaged now?
This is the 19-year-old Australian, right?
Congratulations!
26. R said the following at 10:30 PM on Nov 20:
Btw, gotta agree. This guy's effort is far from adding someone as a friend on Facebook. He did meet the girl in person after all.
Even so, what's wrong with the FB approach? Is it not better to take the time to know someone first if you have the opportunity? After all, what if you find out you and a girl are not compatible soon after "dating" ... would you rather break her heart then not have to?
Every situation is different. This guy's situation was a chance meeting, and he was going to talk to her but didn't get the chance to.
It's funny. The courtship people say we shouldn't date so as to protect the girl. The other folks say guys should take chances and ask girls out on dates. Gee, how did things get so complicated?!
27. Jethro said the following at 12:01 AM on Nov 21:
Write her a poem and you're a great romantic. Write her a blog and you're a coward. I wonder what Shakespeare would do if he had a computer...
28. farmer Tom said the following at 5:58 AM on Nov 21:
I think this whole thing is patently absurd.
First and most important, he no more knows that this female is the woman of his dreams than he knows who is going to win the World Series next year. How many people have you met who sounded, acted and thought in ways totally different than you assumed they would? To say that this female is the woman of his dreams based on appearance alone,( he saw her on a subway train), is flat out stupid. Ladies you better hope that the men who show an interest in you are basing it on more than how you looked on the train.
If seeing someone from across the room is how we determine who the woman of our dreams is, well Selma Hayek is the woman of my dreams. So this particular guy is not attracted to knock out dark-haired Latino beauties, (he has poor taste), he still knows nothing about her that is not based on appearance.
How he goes about meeting someone he knows absolutely nothing about is well, interesting, but nothing more than fodder for tabloid news.
Like I said, I think the entire thing is silly.
29. kman said the following at 7:19 AM on Nov 21:
Leah-
I'd say he's gun shy at this point. When I was single I was the same way. ;)
I suppose when he meets the a girl that he just HAS to get to know better he'll find the courage. OR stop putting so much emphasis on the outcome. That's what helped me tremendously and I've told him that and so have others but he's not ready to hear it.
Guys are just strange. LOL
30. Trevor Dolby said the following at 8:03 AM on Nov 21:
I realised I was responding (in the first comment) to the Facebook/chatroom issue, not to the actual story itself!
Patrick Moburg deserves full marks for effort and ingenuity; I think he took a big risk in doing what he did, and don't think 'coward' applies to him :) 'Unusual', possibly.
I would still stand by my original comment as it applies to the 'taking the easy way out' issue. Asking girls out _is_ hard, but nothing good is ever really easy; God seems to set us challenges so that we grow.
The one dispiriting thing I have noticed is that Christian girls do seem to be harsher in their rejections than non-Christians. I have no idea if this is a general thing, or if it's just me :) but it's the opposite of what I would have expected.
31. JQ said the following at 10:40 AM on Nov 21:
"Asking girls out on facebook, through blog comments, or text messages is lame."
In some cases, I would agree with that. However, only if the man continues to only express himself via some form of electronic media. My now-fiance first admitted liking me and asked me on what would be our first official date (after being friends for a year) over aim. I have no regrets about how our relationship started... I saved the chat on my computer, and now will always have a record of it to remember and cherish that conversation. I still think it's cute- especially because he had no problem telling me how he felt in person soon after.
32. Marc said the following at 12:44 PM on Nov 21:
Jethro,
If Shakespeare had a computer, he'd be very confused. :-)
33. kman said the following at 2:42 PM on Nov 21:
The one dispiriting thing I have noticed is that Christian girls do seem to be harsher in their rejections than non-Christians.
That's unfortunate. I suppose women who are harsh in their turn downs shouldn't be too surprised when they don't get as many opportunities to turn a man down.
Sowing and reaping etc.
And for women to make sure your girlfriends aren't being harsh with guys. You never know when some other woman has punished your future husband for daring to approach her and why he hasn't found you. Something to consider.
34. Peter said the following at 4:30 PM on Nov 21:
All my posts in the comments section of "I Prefer Someone Else's Kisses" are equally applicable here!!
: )
It almost seems like the same conversation is taking place under two different but related blog posts.
35. BDB said the following at 5:05 PM on Nov 21:
Peter wrote:
>>It almost seems like the same conversation is taking place under two different but related blog posts.<<
We'll have the same conversation on another topic next month!
36. Leah said the following at 7:16 PM on Nov 21:
JQ- I think your experience is a bit different to "Asking girls out on facebook, through blog comments, or text messages". It's an actual real-time conversation. Actually, I'm quite sure it's different- that's how it happened with me too! (Except it was MSN Messenger ;P).
BDB- Yes, that's me! Thanks for noticing, that was lovely of you :) I think you've just about made my day!
37. Chris Krycho said the following at 12:33 AM on Nov 22:
Leah... I caught that too, only on a much later read-through of the thread. Congrats!
38. Tami said the following at 9:32 AM on Nov 22:
Leah wrote, "My fiance asked me out over the internet."
Hope he didn't propose that way. ;)
Congratulations!
39. Greg said the following at 3:19 PM on Nov 22:
Wow that's certainly a different way to ask a lady out. I'll admit as a guy for some reason I can accept being rejected from a job or a group much easier than a lady. I think it's because many guys have really no full clue how dating/relationships work. There really is no manual on it (unlike getting a job or into a group) and we are logical creatures who like steps to achieve a goal. Women seem to get the whole dating/relationship aspect a lot easier.
I think rejection is all how you look at it. Sure it's painful but I compare it to ripping a band-aid off...hurts a lot initially, gets better over time. Plus looking at it from a Christian point of view rejection can be a gift from God if you handle it correctly. I can tell you from experience I've personally grown into a deeper relationship with God as a result of rejection (and became a better person). Not only that, God basically has our life planned out to begin with so put yourself out there and see what happens.
40. Leah said the following at 4:56 PM on Nov 22:
Tami- haha, no, that he didn't ;) Thanks to both Tami and Chris! :D
41. Suzanne said the following at 2:10 AM on Nov 25:
Hey, as long as the guy is a decent, responsible, Christian guy...I don't know that I'd much care HOW he asked me out- I think I'd just be thrilled he asked me out at all, providing he didn't have his mother or sister do the asking...as long as HE is the one doing the asking, whether it be online, in person, passing a note or whatever, I don't see a problem. In all honesty, I have a hard enough time going through any line but the self-checkout at Wal-Mart, ordering at a restaurant or meeting a friend of my mom's or sister's. If I were a guy, asking a girl out face-to-face would be more than I could handle, I think. I just wonder how many guys there are out there who are alone simply because they couldn't get up the nerve to ask and thought anything but fact-to-face was weak or unacceptable. A lot of people are fine once they've met someone, but it's the meeting that's so horrid. Why be so hard on him?
42. Derek Wong said the following at 11:11 AM on Nov 26:
Alright I'm definitely feeling the hurt after reading this post because I even just recently tried to find out about a girl that I was interested in online. I must admit that there's a lot of rejection avoidance involved as well as the ease and accessibility. In my case, I had talked to her, but I doubted that I would see her for quite awhile.
Now disregarding that, I do believe that guys should be more direct. I know that I wish that I were more so much of the time. It's difficult to do, and I'm not sure whether it's just me or for all. I'd tend to think it's pretty tough for a lot of guys.
I think that Matt had a good comment on using technology to a limited extent, but to ultimately still be direct with the intentions.
In any case, thanks for the post and thoughts!