It Matters Who You Sit By
by
Candice Watters
on Nov 28, 2007 at 10:20 AM
If a few serious students are good, wouldn't a huge classroom full of students be even better? Unlikely, says Thomas Sowell in Too Many Go to College. In a day when every 18-year-old feels entitled to a college experience, economics Professor Sowell says what's needed isn't more supply, but more demand.
He writes,
Wanting to be in college is not the same as wanting an education. Among the other reasons for wanting to be in college is that it is a social scene with large concentrations of people of the same age and the opposite sex.
It is also a place where immaturity is not the handicap that it can be in other places, ranging from home to the workplace. In college immaturity is the norm, accepted not only by peers but even to a large extent by those in charge.
An academic campus can be a refuge from the realities of the world, not only for students but even for members of the faculty. Max Weber referred to some of his fellow academics as "big children in university chairs."
Many students really are there for a good education. Sowell talks about them, too. But it seems they're at the mercy of the goof-offs,
... the negative effect of students who are not serious can be detrimental to the education of those who are. I found this to be true in each of the five colleges and universities where I taught, as well as in each of the three universities from which I received degrees.
I used to try to get a front row seat on the first day of class. Knowing that most professors made their seating charts based on where we landed on day one, I wanted the incentive to pay attention. Maybe I should have paid more attention not just to where I sat, but next to whom.
1. Tami had the following to say on Nov 28 at 10:51 AM:
The students' actions and attitudes also has an effect on the school's overall reputation.
My alma mater is highly regarded in the academic community... but is also well known for being a "party school." (Interestingly enough, there are also a great number of Christian profs there.)
Not everyone was there to party; I was fortunate enough to "fall in with" a bunch of serious students. But sad to say, of the people I knew, my Christian friends were among the least academically motivated (however, that's *not* to say they were necessarily partiers). And by this, I don't simply mean "not stressing out to get the A" -- I mean, an attitude of "so long as I pass, I'm clear."
If people choose not to go to college, they're certainly going against the grain. But if they *do* apply themselves to whatever they aspire to, whether that be a trade, musicianship, full-time parenthood, or whatever -- it can be very valuable and profitable in the long haul. No one said (or at least I hope they haven't!) that college is the best way to accomplish every goal.
I also agree with what Sowell said about "education." You don't need to go to college to get an education. Educating yourself is a state of mind (so to speak).
2. Danielle had the following to say on Nov 28 at 11:28 AM:
I recently had a conversation on this same topic with a friend of mine who happens to be a tenured physics professor at my Alma Mater, which is a public school (if that makes any difference), whom I will refer to as Dr. D. He was inquiring about possible solutions to this "epidemic of apathy" that has spread on campus faster than the flu in the past few years . My first thought was something to the extent of "Well, you guys got what you wanted, more students paying tuition without the proper college preparation and correct motivations." To provide some background information, the college decided to stop requiring an SAT or ACT score to be taken into account before an applicant was officially accepted about 2 years ago (to my dismay after I was already a student there :). Therefore, they had many applicants (who did not receive their high school diplomas under a college prep curriculum) who simply wanted out from under their parent's authority, but did not want to go straight into the workforce. Somehow I refrained from releasing my tirade and instead bantered back and forth with Dr. D. about offering tutorials, study skills seminars, upper classman mentorship programs and opening a 24 hour study room in the library. Unfortunately, all of these options had been tried with minimal sucess.
Underneath all of this, I can sense a deeper issue: a distorted attitude and shift of priorities from receiving a well-rounded higher education that molds and matures a student to just doing whatever it takes to get my degree. As a result of this almost humanistic viewpoint, almost anything is permissible in the mind of the student including cheating, forgery, black mail and even bribery as a means to an end. This even happened to an extreme degree a few years ago when a student hacked into the computer mainframe and changed his grades on his official transcript at Georgia Tech, one of the top engineering schools in the nation! I realize that many jobs and careers now require a college degree before they will even consider anything else an applicant has to offer in terms of life experience. This fact alone does indeed place a great deal of pressure on a young person to pursue a higher education, moreso for the sake of a better salary than an altruistic intellectual ascent. A sucessful college graduate must first be a sucessful college student. I know that sounds incredibly simplistic, but it is the truth.
In college, much more freedom is given, but with that also comes much more responsibility. We really do reap what we sow and in no place was that more evident to me than in college.
To truly succeed in college, I think the ultimate goal is to graduate not only with a degree but also experience that has yielded the fruit of a more structured way of life that is more mature,informed, conscientious and balanced than when you first started out. Lowering standards and providing short-cuts in not the answer. However, neither is placing the standards at such as staggering height that the pressure is too much to handle. College was such an important time in my life. I began to realize the meaning of fully relying on God and being the salty truth and shining light in a community full of rotten lies and consuming darkness. It was during college that God called me to be a missionary nurse and led me to many wonderful friends full of wisdom and love for God, including Dr. D. I would not trade that for all the jobs and all the parties in the world!
3. kman had the following to say on Nov 28 at 11:41 AM:
The first time I went to college, I went because it was what I was supposed to do. I did OK but didn't do what I was capable of doing.
The next time I went- 15 years later- I was focused, knew why I was there and I was paying this time! Got one B and all A's in 3 years of full time school with no breaks. Needless to say I was more mature and motivated to be there. I avoided the slacker crowd as they interfered with the class I was PAYING to be in!
4. Alex C. had the following to say on Nov 28 at 12:36 PM:
"To provide some background information, the college decided to stop requiring an SAT or ACT score to be taken into account before an applicant was officially accepted about 2 years ago "
This bit of info, along with what you've said, made me think about what colleges are presenting as the priority for students wishing to enter. When I was back in high school, and taking college overview classes and going on visits to multiple campuses, one of the big themes I noticed was "grades aren't that important". Everytime we met people from admissions, one of the main things they emphasized was "don't worry, we won't JUST look at your grades. Your extracurricular activites are JUST as important". I think the message this is sending is that college IS more about "the excperience" than it is the learning, that they care more about applicants that have lots of extra curricular activites on their record than they do about test scores. They want "well rounded" individuals. This is also combined (at least with my school) with the fact that college preparatory classes are emphasizing that it doesn't really matter WHAT you major in, just as long as you get a degree, ANY degree. During one of our days in College overview, the teacher went over a list of graduates who were working at jobs that had NOTHING to do with there actual degree, in order to make this point.
To sum it up, I think the message being sent to students is that "experience" (meaning: extra curricular activities like sports, clubs, fraternities/sororities, campus activities, working a part time job, etc. etc.) is more important than actual class work is. And judging by stuff like the other recent Blog post "Employers Wary of Hiring Jerks", the idea may not be completly wrong.
5. Sara had the following to say on Nov 28 at 1:53 PM:
This reminds me of a piece by Gideon Strauss from last year called "Making the Most of College: asking big questions" ( http://www.wrf.ca/comment/article.cfm?ID=199 ).
He points out how for students who truly are at university to learn and find out where they fit, a time of having few real world responsibilies can be a blessing; a time of what he calls 'tensed leisure':
"It is a time in which we can try out different ideas, ways of life, kinds of work, with a little more wiggle-room in the face of destiny, and a little more tolerance from others for backing out of options we find to be cul-de-sacs. For some of us, there is a little less pressure to put food on the table by the sweat of our brows and, therefore, a little more of Seerveld's classical leisure for reading, visiting art galleries, staying up late over beer or coffee to talk through things, wrestling with writing in which we bring our selves to bear on concerns common to humanity through the ages or peculiar to our own time and place."
He goes on to say that, "the question of, 'What is to be done in the world?' draws young adults out of the appropriate reflection and "tensed leisure" of the college years into the responsibilities of a lifetime."
It a good article for inspiring a good attitude towards one's college years.
6. brx had the following to say on Nov 28 at 3:03 PM:
Did I miss something in Sowell's editorial?? I see only a few, very vague personal annecdotes which he uses to draw sweeping conclusions. Honestly, Sowell sounds like a prof who is getting generationally distant, having difficulty connecting with students, and thus is no longer happy teaching in the general classroom. It's good that Sowell moved on to an environment more suited to him; unfortunately, the tenure system often keeps other profs around who need to move on.
I've been involved in colleges and college ministry long enough to realize there are all kinds of students who learn in different ways. Just because a student isn't thrilled in your class with you teaching, it doesn't mean he/she is not a good or capable student. Yes, there may be some poor students out of your reach, but I hope that profs are humble enough to get themselves checked before blaming the students.
Grace & peace.
7. brx had the following to say on Nov 28 at 3:25 PM:
The reasoning behind the 'just get a degree' statement is that the US college general-education requirements were designed such that passing them essentially certified one as capable of generally-rounded logical thought, problem-solving, and articulation. The major courses for one's degree are merely specialization on top of the G.E.
Grades _aren't_ the most important in many evaluations. Ability to get knowledge and _apply_ it to solving real problems is what we look for in job candidates. We've turned down at least one straight-A college grad because he didn't have any extra-curricular or project experience that showed he really wanted the kind of job he was applying for. We'd rather he have some B's and C's with activities that reveal interests and passions. Fortunately, many schools are integrating more real-world projects and service-learning requirements into their degree programs.
Grace & peace.
8. Marc had the following to say on Nov 28 at 3:56 PM:
As one who attended a private, Christian university, I can testify to the fact that Christian colleges/universities are NOT immune from "goof-offs" or "immature" students. I think the key behind my academic career was to surround myself with people who weren't goof-offs or immature.
It's not that we didn't know how to have a good time or crack jokes... It's that we knew when to be funny and when to be serious.
9. Jonathan had the following to say on Nov 28 at 9:53 PM:
I majored in education, and I think that a big reason it seems students "goof off" in college is because professors are sometimes bad teachers. I did well in classes where the professor actually was organized, took time in presenting the material, and had a personality. I "struggled" in classes where the professor was self-obsessed, monotone, and overall did not seem interested in student learning. Yes, there are many people who go to college who blow it off, but there are many professors who have no business teaching people either.
10. Lynne had the following to say on Nov 29 at 7:30 AM:
To brx:
"Sowell sounds like a prof who is getting generationally distant, having difficulty connecting with students, and thus is no longer happy teaching in the general classroom."
It would be good to spend some time investigating Thomas Sowell, and not form sweeping assumptions based on a single editorial. Sowell is a world reknown economist and all of his books have reams of data support from a variety of sources. It bothers me to see someone like Dr. Sowell discounted simply becuase your experience doesn't reflect his opinion and research.
Second, I hold a Phd an have taught undergraduate courses at several institutions. In addition, one of my specialties is learning. It is important to agree that there are a variety of ways people learn. However, all of these are affected by values and motivationa and they are not all suitable to a college setting. The slackers often slow the entire class down and prevent others from engaging and learning with the material.
I say this all as someone who:
1. Truly respects Dr. Sowell professionally and academically.
2. Has taught undergraduates and hope to never have to again
3. Was a slack who flunked out of undergrad twice (3 years, cumulative 1.6 GPA)
Just my .02
11. Esther had the following to say on Nov 29 at 10:52 AM:
Does this post support the idea that going to an "elitist" school will benefit the value of your degree? I always heard that it doesn't make sense to go to a big expensive school, when a degree from a community college is "just as legit". Maybe attending class with students who have all met certain standards, and are (in theory) performing to a certain level, will create an atmosphere more conducive to excellence.
I would say that this is true- my experience at a highly regarded institution was that of learning as much from my motivated and intelligent classmates as the renowned professors (though they were great too).
12. Patricia2ndPoster had the following to say on Nov 29 at 11:18 AM:
Esther-I would draw a distinction between a community college and college or university. I attended an expensive private school that is know for academic rigor and frankly thought the one community college course I took over a summer was a joke in terms of academic rigor. I think the differences between most state research universities and private universities are fewer, though. The big difference is that private schools tend to provide much more attention so a student has to bem ore active to receive a better education at a large state school. But, the quality of professors and resources is close enough that an undergraduate could get a fine education at either.
13. Tami had the following to say on Nov 29 at 11:59 AM:
Having attended both a community college and a public research university, I would say that the odds are great that you'll find good and bad instructors at both.
Community colleges have instructors that love to teach, but aren't stereotypically "intellectual"; they have instructors who are meh; and they have instructors of the same caliber as those at a four-year university. The exact ratio may depend on where you live; the CC I went to is a "feeder" for a nationally recognized, public, PAC-10 college (but that's not where I transferred to ;), so that had a bearing on the quality of teachers I had.
Similarly, research universities have folks who "clock it in" because they want tenure at that university; professors with stellar research skills who can't communicate; and dynamic instructors that inspire students and get them excited about the subject.
My general take:
If, for your future line of work, it's important to graduate from a particular school or type of school, then do it if you can.
If not, get into the best school you can, and work hard.
You can't guarantee what kind of instructor you'll get. You can only control your own study habits and commitment. And if you want to succeed, it's as important to be committed to the stuff that makes you fall asleep as it is the stuff that you major in.
And yes... you get out of it what you put into it, no matter where you go.
14. Christina had the following to say on Nov 29 at 4:02 PM:
I experienced this issue, not by who I sat by, but who ended up in class with me.
I was a serious math student who wanted to go to Grad school for math, but I was surrounded by math degree students whose only goal was to teach high school math. Strangely enough, the majority of the professors taught to them and compromised any chance for a serious student to succeed in a graduate program for Math.
Oh well...we live we learn...I'll probly teach math to high school students...
15. brx had the following to say on Nov 29 at 5:08 PM:
Lynne,
I hope I didn't come across as if I was putting Sowell down. I meant his editorial "sounds like" such a situation, not necessarily IS that situation. I'm sure Sowell is very intelligent, hardworking, and proficient in his talents and gifting - afterall, PhD's don't often come easy. That particular editorial though, did sound to me more like a ranting complaint.
As your own testimony of having "taught undergraduates and hope to never have to again" seems to support, I think there are different types of teachers better suited to different environments in different seasons of their lives. I currently prefer working with college students more than HS students. I may not always be involved with students at the undergrad level, but for now, I really enjoy seeing them reach those 'ah-ha! I gettit!' moments and I'm proud of them when they learn to work effectively with other students of different personalities in group projects.
Grace & peace.
16. bob had the following to say on Dec 3 at 4:58 AM:
I would like to come out in support of the so called 'slackers' in college,
While getting an education is important, and there are to be fair some people who abuse the college system,
I feel that college presents an opportune time in which to discover yourself and expand your horizons beyond books,
From my experience I have found that your academic success in college is by no means a telling indicator of your future success in life. In fact in a world where benchmarks and techniques are constantly changing the best a college can do for any student is impart a way of thinking and a framework for finding information.
It is fact the soft skills of networking (sharing ideas, working in teams) inherent in a slackers daily curriculum that I fell best prepares them for the corporate world.